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This article was nominated for deletion on June 10, 2013. The result of the discussion was SNOW keep.

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Where is he?

There's so much media noise about the asylum seeking and official government announcements from governments that I no longer know where Edward Snowden actually is, at this point in time. I can't ascertain with any umm certainty from the news media, or more importantly, from our WP article ;o) Is Edward Snowden STILL in that airport in Moscow?

I would suggest considering the addition of an info box to the article, with a very brief time line. Item 1 could be May 1, Snowden leaves house in Hong Kong, Item 2 could be whenever he arrived in Hong Kong if we know the date. Item 3 is the date of his arrival at that airport in Moscow. Item 4 is or will be whenever we know that he has departed Moscow. I am happy to add this, but want to know what y'all think about it.

Second issue

One may not study for a Master's degree without completion of a Bachelor's degree. Snowden didn't even have a high school diploma, but he did have a GED. That qualified him for study at a community college or four year degree program. He never came close to receiving either designation. He possibly completed a class in "MS Windows 2000 Systems Engineer w/ Exchange", but there seems to be no evidence that he completed it. This is from the Washington Post:

"... Snowden also said he attended classes at Johns Hopkins on a campus in Columbia, Maryland. A spokeswoman for Johns Hopkins University said they have "no record" of Edward Snowden taking classes there. Instead, the Maryland Higher Education Commission said that someone named Ed Snowden actually took "MS Windows 2000 Systems Engineer w/ Exchange" at a for-profit entity known as Advanced Career Technologies from February 2002 to May 2002. The school offered career training in Columbia, Maryland, under the name "Computer Career Institute at Johns Hopkins University." Hopkins ended its relationship with the company in 2009 and it shut down in 2012."

As for the Master's degree, I realize that a number of sources say the following:

"In addition, Snowden did work towards a Master's Degree at the University of Liverpool, taking an online Computer Security class in 2011. Kate Mizen, head of public relations for the University of Liverpool, said he studied there, but "he is not active in his studies and has not completed the program.""

He took one online computer security class in 2011 at the University of Liverpool, which he didn't necessarily complete (after being employed by the CIA et al. as an information technology expert for four, five (?) years prior). That hardly counts as doing work toward a Master's degree. It is misleading to state that he studied for a Master's degree, while omitting the fact that he never obtained a Bachelor's degree. (This entire thing is just blowing my mind, as I know so many people who actually went to school, have credentials and experience, and could never in their wildest dreams get a job like Edward Snowden had, but that is beside the point. For that matter, I would like to have Edward Snowden's job! I'm better qualified than he was. I would hazard a guess that at least 25% of the contributors to WP articles are more qualified than Ed was for his $122,000 per year job...)

In fact, the quote as cited should be: 'A spokesperson for the university said that in 2011 Snowden registered for an online master's degree program in computer security and that "he is not active in his studies and has not completed the programme."

(British spelling is in the original, in the article this is incorrectly spelt as 'program'. 2.96.96.198 (talk) 08:16, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Third issue

Finally, it would be a good idea to mention something about Edward Snowden's girlfriend. Maybe you did, I couldn't find anything. The BBC said that her name is Lindsey Wells, and that they moved out of the house together on May 1, and that Ed had photos of her pole-dancing (which surprised me, that BBC mentioned that, without further follow-up).

What happened to the girlfriend? Did she travel to Hong Kong with Ed? Is she with him now? Are both the girlfriend AND the female Wikileaks handler with Ed now, at the airport in Russia? I am not being sarcastic. I don't see this covered, and as a woman, I would really like to know. These sort of details are important and of interest to me. If there isn't any information available, that's fine. But if there is, or becomes available in time, please include it. It is topical while he is a fugitive. Later, maybe not so much, I'll concede.

Thank you for considering my requests. I would be happy to insert that info box, if you want me to. --FeralOink (talk) 07:41, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• First issue – Timeline: not so hot on that idea. He hasn't been to many places and so it seems unwarranted to dwell on such recentist and "newsy" information.

  Second issue – Liverpool Uni: We've only written about what the news outlets have said about his education history. We're not allowed to comment or speculate on stuff that hasn't been reported. Nowhere does it say or imply he obtained a Bachelors or Masters degree. The only distinction I would perhaps examine is whether he simply enrolled or whether he did submit some work for assessment, but considering his background checkers missed out on a whole lot more, it's kinda trivial in the whole scheme of things.

  Third issue – girlfriend: It may be "interesting" information, but this is the sort of unencyclopaedic gossip that I feel has no place in a WP biography. She wiped her entire online profile, so it's safe to assume that she would not want further attention on her. Her whereabouts would be a coatrack of no relevance to the storyline. -- Ohc _{¿que pasa?} 07:55, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

If his girlfriend, Lindsay Mills (thank you, Matthew for the name correction!) has wiped her entire online profile, that changes things considerably. I didn't realize that, and I will trust your word on that, Ohconfucius. While you may consider it "unencyclopaedic gossip", there is far worse than that in other Misplaced Pages articles! But that is no justification for THIS Misplaced Pages article to cause shame or embarrassment. The young woman has gone to great effort to separate herself from her online persona, and is not relevant to this emotionally and politically charged event. Agreed, she should not be exposed further through Misplaced Pages, not unless there is information to the contrary, at some time in the future. Thank you. --FeralOink (talk) 22:11, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

• • According to user 76... a few sections above, he was heard from as recently as the 6th, and the TV news programs I've seen continue to say that he's at the Russian airport. As to the abandoned girlfriend, she was discussed on muckraking TV shows like Inside Edition for a couple of days after he fled to Hong Kong, and nothing since then, so the subject doesn't warrant more than a single sentence, or maybe just part of a sentence. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:46, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm sure his departure from Moscow airport is not something that can take place in a clandestine manner, nor will it be an event that Russia will want to hide. -- Ohc _{¿que pasa?} 14:28, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
    • However, it would not be surprising if it's not announced until after he arrives safely at wherever he eventually goes. Also, with the media having been burned by false rumors, they might exercise some caution, which might aid his next step. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:37, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Very true, Baseball Bugs, about the media being burned, repeatedly, on this. In today's news radio, I heard that he had officially applied for asylum in Russia. His status remains uncertain. At whatever point in time that this is resolved, I would continue to recommend an infobox, as it is confusing. Thank you to all for your responses! --FeralOink (talk) 22:11, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

• • • • her name is Lindsay Mills, not Lindsey Wells, if I'm not wrong Matthew 13:02, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Media contradictions

Today's (online) London Times story, "Trapped Snowden accepts Putin’s offer of asylum," claims on the basis of Friday's airport news conference that he's opted for (gag order-conditioned) Russian asylum, but other reports quote officials as saying Russia "has not received an asylum bid" from him (BBC) and indeed "had had no contact with him" (NYT). Meanwhile, Reuters quotes La Nación (Rio) quoting Guardian writer Glenn Greenwald regarding a supposed "dead man's switch" whereby even weightier disclosures would automatically be made if Snowden were eliminated — a sort of classified-information Doomsday Machine. Ganz merkwürdig, as Dr. Strangelove might say.

Sca (talk) 21:05, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

What you're describing sounds like blackmail. Regardless, does the Times really know anything, or are they just trying to connect dots? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:36, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd prefer to wait before including any of this in the main article. Give the Bureaucracies some time to catch up and process requests. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 23:57, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes. And posturing, on the part of all involved parties. Nothing has actually happened yet, as far as we know. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:55, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I found a good article via The Wall Street Journal (12 July 2013, updated 16 July 2013). WSJ journalists were actually present at the Moscow press conference. They got direct quotes from Russian officials, for example:

'Mr. Snowden didn't elaborate on where he was living at the airport and declined requests for pictures, citing safety concerns, but said he felt safe and comfortable. "I asked him how he likes Russia, and he said, 'It's safe here,' " Vyacheslav Nikonov, a senior member of Russia's Parliament, said. Mr. Snowden was "well-coiffed," Mr. Nikonov said, adding that he seemed upbeat, though thin and pale. On state television late last month, Mr. Nikonov, who is a grandson of the Stalin-era foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov, told viewers it would be a double standard to expel Mr. Snowden. "There's never been a single case where people who betrayed Russia were handed over by the United States or any other Western country," he said.'

For as long as WSJ doesn't have a pay wall for the good content (which I worry about, as I'm not a subscriber, wish I could be), and covers Snowden news, I belive that they are good third or second party source. --FeralOink (talk) 08:16, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Per WP:PAYWALL, if the WSJ does start a paywall it doesn't change the equation. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:41, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Edward Snowden polls

These polls account for gender, age, and race:

• Mali, Meghashyam. "Poll: Majority say Snowden a whistle-blower, not a traitor." The Hill. July 10, 2013.
• Muller, Sarah. "Poll: Americans say Snowden isn’t a traitor." MSNBC. July 10, 2013.

WhisperToMe (talk) 08:02, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

As has been discussed before, polls don't belong in the article. Polls are notoriously fleeting, if not inaccurate. Google and it seems a majority thought he was guilty. Guess what: He walked. And the only "poll" that will ultimately matter in the NSA cases is what 9 guys on the Supreme Court think. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 08:13, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Bugs, only you stated polls dont belong in the article in an above discussion. There was no straw poll. In fact Bugs your roll here seems to be one of limiting the content of the article so it is not neutral POV. Why? That is the question. Do you have motive or bias? The Snowden friendly polls are certainly an important factor, whether you believe so or not. Yes thy are. Its called democracy. That in a nutshell it what all this is about after all. The lack of it in fact. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 09:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

My role here, if any, is to try to keep the article neutral by minimizing the hero-worship factor. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:47, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Blade, poll results belong in this article as long as (a) they're reported by reliable secondary sources (such as The Hill or MSNBC) or (b) the polls are performed by reputable pollsters (such as Quinnipiac, which happens to be one of the most well-respected pollsters in the country). Special care must be taken so as not to overstate the results. By the way, the "two" polls referenced by WhisperToMe are actually two stories about the same single poll. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 09:52, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments about the Zimmerman poll/trial have nothing to do with this article. I agree that reputable polls are appropriate here. Gandydancer (talk) 11:14, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• There cannot be any blanket "polls are good" nor "polls are bad". They are but a snapshot of a sample taken at a given time, The true test must be whether the given polls were notable, per reliable sources. Of course they can be wrong, but that is rather besides the point. -- Ohc _{¿que pasa?} 14:45, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

These two articles are the same poll. That said, we are writing for the long term, and while they reflect perception, they don't necessarily reflect the actual facts of the case.

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/institutes-and-centers/polling-institute/search-releases/search-results/release-detail?ReleaseID=1919&What=&strArea=;&strTime=3

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 16:51, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

You're right. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:46, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Bugs, Its good you conceded you were wrong before by saying this above 'As has been discussed before, polls don't belong in the article.' Your new considered stance in line with majority views is indeed non POV. The consensus being summed up best by User talk:Ohconfucius, if Im not mistaken, being, 'There cannot be any blanket "polls are good" nor "polls are bad". They are but a snapshot of a sample taken at a given time, The true test must be whether the given polls were notable, per reliable sources'. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 22:52, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

You lost me at the bakery. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:58, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Camera Shy

“The More Photographed I Am…the More Dangerous my Situation” -

http://www.bagnewsnotes.com/2013/07/more-photographed-more-dangerous/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 17:13, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Transparency only goes one way? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:45, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I think it was stated somewhere that if he was photographed too much, if he tried to sneak out by disguising his appearance, it would be easier to identify him anyway. WhisperToMe (talk) 08:27, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

In the article above, one paragraph below the quote. The concern referenced is facial recognition software. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 00:42, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Snowden Has Received a Formal Nomination for the 2014 Nobel Peace Prize

Excerpt from Letter written by Stefan Svallfors, Professor of Sociology at Umeå University

Through his personal efforts, he has also shown that individuals can stand up for fundamental rights and freedoms. This example is important because since the Nuremberg trials in 1945 has been clear that the slogan "I was just following orders" is never claimed as an excuse for acts contrary to human rights and freedoms. Despite this, it is very rare that individual citizens having the insight of their personal responsibility and courage Edward Snowden shown in his revelation of the American surveillance program. For this reason, he is a highly affordable candidate.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2363191/Edward-Snowden-nominated-Nobel-Peace-Prize-Swedish-Professor.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 20:28, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

As far as I know, countless people can nominate someone for a nobel peace prize, and therefore, countless people are nominated every year. So a nomination alone isn't noteworthy at all. --Conti|✉ 22:34, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• As I have argued elsewhere here on WP, nomination criteria for the NPP are notoriously loose, that even one person holding an academic chair is enough to nominate. Thus, this non-discrimination nature renders the nomination near-worthless. -- Ohc _{¿que pasa?} 23:30, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
• I'd agree that the nomination itself is of debatable notability, but might be worth a line in the article. If he wins, obviously, that's another matter. Jusdafax 23:47, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• Isn't the list of names being given serious consideration each year supposed to be confidential? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:44, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Here's some interesting commentary by a writer who is sympathetic to Snowden but is also practical: ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:14, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree that this isn't really that notable. Maybe add this to the bio of the person who nominated him.--Malerooster (talk) 13:28, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Has anything changed with this? --Malerooster (talk) 15:27, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

• A Swedish sociology professor nominated. Not. If one or more of the Michal Gorbachevs or Desmond Tutus of this world had made that nomination, then maybe it would be worth a mention. -- Ohc _{¿que pasa?} 15:46, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

The consensus appears to me that the nomination is not sufficiently notable at this time for inclusion in the main article. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 05:28, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

"Snowden met with representatives of human rights organizations"

With regard to this claim appearing in Misplaced Pages without qualification, Der Spiegel has criticized a headline that is almost identical as "misleading": "Snowden Meets with Human Rights Advocates at Moscow Airport" -- made it sound as if the former intelligence contractor for America's National Security Agency (NSA) and current crusader against Internet surveillance had formed an alliance with Kremlin opponents. But, in reality, they were only meant to serve as props aimed at concealing the Kremlin's involvement.... Nikonov would have never crossed Snowden's mind without the prompting of Russian officials." See also this comment by Masha Gessen posted to nytimes.com: "Factual accuracy was another casualty of the media frenzy. All the reports I saw, in both Russian and English, stated that the fugitive intelligence contractor Edward Snowden had met with human rights activists and a Russian M.P. In fact, representatives of bona fide human rights organizations such as Human Rights Watch were far outnumbered by representatives of Kremlin-affiliated agencies that exist to wage propaganda attacks — including attacks on actual human rights groups." Finally, a Russia-based writer for the New Yorker also noted that "the panel at Sheremetyevo included pro-Kremlin figures in the guise of civic activists. Such figures and organizations are common in Russia, and are used to marginalize genuine non-government watchdogs or to side with the Kremlin against its enemies." Bottom line is that this was a staged event that involved the Kremlin.--Brian Dell (talk) 11:54, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Surprise, surprise. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:57, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

The media has started to acknowledge the Kremlin's role to a greater degree. The Washington Post quotes a human rights advocate as saying that re July 12 meeting "she went reluctantly and that the whole episode appeared to be stage-managed.... After the Friday meeting, a parade of Russian politicians urged the government to grant the asylum request, in what appeared to be a Kremlin-scripted attempt to make such a move inevitable."--Brian Dell (talk) 02:28, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Imagine that. Today the news is saying Snowden could be freed from the airport in a few days. Supposedly he has promised to reveal no more info. But what if Greenwald releases info that Snowden had given him but was not publicly known yet? Then the pressure might run the other direction: Russia could threaten to jail Snowden unless Greenwald keeps a lid on it. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:46, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

For an indication of how modern Russia honors "human rights", check out Pussy Riot and Alexei Navalny. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:18, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

As an aside; there has been a development in the Navalny case. It would seem he's free while appeal is pending, and is allowed to resume his bid for mayor of Moscow. On condition that he not travel outside of Moscow.. And now back you your regularly scheduled article. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 05:35, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Russia update?

"Fugitive US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden has applied for temporary asylum in Russia, officials say."

"The Federal Migration Service confirmed he had completed the relevant paperwork at Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport, where he has been for the past three weeks."

— http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23328074

Sca (talk) 14:30, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

From the information in that article, it appears that fact should be in the article, that he has now formally applied for asylum in Russia, and that they might grant it or they might give him refugee status instead. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:35, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

"Edward Snowden today has filed for a temporary protection visa with Russia's ministry of immigration. #snowen #nsa #prism"

Unclear whether this is a separate deal from temporary asylum.

https://twitter.com/wikileaks

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 17:51, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I think three sources is sufficient to update, with attribution. First mention of the asylum filing should go after the sentence On June 14, 2013, U.S. federal prosecutors charged Snowden with espionage and theft of government property, and before the "Contents" box, with some — but not too much — detail farther down. It would be good to quote lawyer Anatoly Kucherena telling Interfax that Snowden says he "will observe" Putin's gag order-condition for asylum.

I leave it to those more computer-savvy to do the work. Sca (talk) 18:05, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

This CNN editorial should be required reading for anyone who thinks Russia and China are somehow better places for political dissenters to be than in the USA. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:12, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

How about for Misplaced Pages editors? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:38, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, specifically the ones on this page. Or would you rather not know? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:42, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Key public figures: Dick Cheney and Jimmy Carter

The Public reaction has too much polling information and too much from political commentators and is missing key public figures positions.

Dick Cheney calling Snowden "a traitor" should be placed back in this article under the Public reaction section. His statement is notable, was properly referenced and was inappropriately removed from this article:

Former US Vice President Dick Cheney called Snowden "a traitor".

The above reference also includes Snowden's response.

Also, Jimmy Carter's position should be under the Public reaction section, not under the Congress reaction section:

Former US President Jimmy Carter said: "He's obviously violated the laws of America, for which he's responsible, but I think the invasion of human rights and American privacy has gone too far ... I think that the secrecy that has been surrounding this invasion of privacy has been excessive, so I think that the bringing of it to the public notice has probably been, in the long term, beneficial."

The Public reaction section should include key public figures positions such as Dick Cheney and Jimmy Carter, both of which are notable.

References

1. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57594496/russia-frees-opposition-leader-alexei-navalny-after-less-than-a-day-in-prison/
2. Bendery, Jennifer (June 17, 2013), Edward Snowden: Dick Cheney Calling Me A Traitor Is The 'Highest Honor' For An American, Huffington Post, retrieved June 24, 2013
3. Watkins, Tom (June 30, 2013). "Father proposes deal for Snowden's voluntary return", CNN

Since Cheney was highly involved in the post-9/11 situation, his view is important; and the view of any former president carries a lot of weight. Carter's comment, in fact, is well-measured. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:33, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

No, Cheney and Carter will be perceived as too biased by dint of past office to be in the Public reaction section. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 01:24, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Where are you seeing bias in Carter's statement? And show me a quote in the article that's not biased. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:51, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Per WP:RS, reliable sources are not required to be neutral. Biased or opinionated sources are perfectly acceptable as long as they're attributed. In this case, Cheney and Carter's comments are absolutely, absolutely notable and should be reinserted forthwith. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:17, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

No no put em in sure, but in the public section? Blade-of-the-South (talk) 07:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I see. Personally I'm not set on this but I think all retired officials (including members of Congress) should be in the Executive branch / Congress sections. It seems to make more sense as their views have presumably been shaped by their time in office. To lump Cheney in with the public seems especially weird. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 08:08, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

You sum up my views exactly Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:11, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

The only responses included in the sections for branches of the US government should be those that have been made by currently-serving members of the government. Individuals who are no longer serving in office do not speak for the government, cannot act on behalf of the government, cannot directly shape government policy, and in many cases may not have access to critical relevant information that active officers of the government have access to. In many cases, individuals who are no longer serving in government may also be subject to various conflicts of interest (which may or may not be hidden from the public) that are at odds with the interests of the government. Dezastru (talk) 21:22, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Another from Carter reported in Der Spiegel "America has no functioning democracy at this time." I'm leery of this quote, however, since I've not been able to find a recording, or an independent source. All others are simply quoting Spiegel. http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/nsa-affaere-jimmy-carter-kritisiert-usa-a-911589.html

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 04:08, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

twitter @GP Schmitz is to be followed; however, the article refers to the "Atlantic Bridge" meeting in Atlanta on Tuesday, July 16, 2013, as where Carter made that quote.

Other articles include the same quote from Der Spiegel signed by twitter @GP Schmitz

References

1. msn NOW (July 18, 2013), Jimmy Carter says NSA leaks show US has no functioning democracy, msn, retrieved July 18, 2013
2. rt.com (July 18, 2013), ‘America has no functioning democracy’ – Jimmy Carter on NSA, RT.com, retrieved July 18, 2013

An ex-Senator Breaks ranks

And is actively supporting and corresponding with Snowden. He has also begun to lobby his colleagues.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/us-senator-praises-snowden-email-19683450#.UeXrDG0pgmg

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/16/gordon-humphrey-email-edward-snowden

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 01:03, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

More lawsuits against the NSA

From gun groups, religious organizations, and drug legalization advocates.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/07/nsa-faces-new-threat-religious-gun-and-pot-groups/67232/

Yahoo! granted the right for declassification proceedings.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/16/us-usa-prism-yahoo-court-idUSBRE96F1A120130716

From Microsoft. A motion similar to Yahoo!'s.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/sns-rt-us-usa-security-microsoft-20130716,0,6106528.story

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 02:28, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Obama administration drowning in lawsuits filed over NSA surveillance.

http://rt.com/usa/snowden-leaks-surveillance-suits-174/

Blade-of-the-South (talk) 07:56, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

By the time the Supreme Court hears these cases, we'll probably be in the next presidency. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:43, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Microsoft's was filed in the FISC, they move quick, as they already ruled on Yahoo! --71.20.55.6 (talk) 18:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Rand Paul Recruits for Class Action LAWSUIT against the NSA. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFSgDPmsoMo.

Lots of class actions now. Here's one for $20 billion. http://www.wnd.com/2013/06/nsa-slapped-with-20-billion-class-action-suit/

Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:16, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Three observations for Blade-of-the-South: First, WND is World News Daily, and as Bugs Bunny trenchantly observed, unleashes a fire-storm of spam pop-up's from adshuffle and engine.4dsply, which left me feeling non-plussed and would be best not to have actual readers of WP articles be subject to. Second, that WND class action suit for $20 billion had a post date of 15 June 2013, and is iff-y. Finally, WND also has posts such as New Law Allows Obama to Take Over All Media (that is recent, 19 July), which isn't especially plausible. Please don't think I'm being intentionally obnoxious or critical of you, Blade-of-the-South, as you seem sincere and helpful. --FeralOink (talk) 08:52, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

A whole slew of spam popups on that last site. I note that at least some of these suits are not about the NSA's activity directly, but rather about the secrecy of the court that approved it. Rand Paul, of course, is beginning a presidential campaign. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:33, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

That makes it all the more notable. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:36, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 22:00, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Rand Paul is on a very short list of true libertarians in the GOP. If he does run in 2016, things could get interesting, to say the least. The question those suits seek to have answered are what was the decision process of the courts that led them to believe these activities are constitutional, along with whether the Patriot Act's authority was exceeded, and ultimately whether the Patriot Act is constitutional. That will take a while. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:13, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

FeralOink It was spammy wasnt it. A sloppy business model. Of course its not WP. Its a pointer, this is the talk page. Heres an even bigger suit, this time its clean in the washington post. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/wp/2013/06/13/former-justice-prosecutor-seeks-23-billion-in-damages-for-nsa-surveillance-programs/

This looks damaging to the NSA also http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/17/nsa-court-challenges-tech-firms Blade-of-the-South (talk) 09:58, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

The Post story is more than a month old. Is there any update? Where did they get that dollar amount from? Can they prove tangible damages? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 09:59, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

The Guardian story is from Wednesday. Today it was announced that the federal government had gotten a renewal from the secret court. Looks like it will continue until or if the high court stops it and/or Congress amends the Patriot Act. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 10:03, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Editorial in the SCMP

• Chowdhury, Debasish Roy. "China missed chance for asylum payback by spurning Edward Snowden." (Print title: "Payback chance missed in Snowden exit") South China Morning Post. Wednesday 17 July 2013.

In 2012 the US granted 9,541 Chinese asylum

It states: "According to the Asylum Trends 2012 report, the US was the world's biggest provider and the Chinese were among the top five seekers of asylum - right up there with the Afghans, Syrians, Serbians and the Pakistanis. At some point China will have to ponder the incongruity of its rising global status and the number of asylum seekers it sends and receives (zero, it doesn't entertain any) and how this mismatch reflects on the country's image." WhisperToMe (talk) 18:56, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

THREE degrees of separation now.

Friends of friends, of friends.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/07/nsa-admits-it-analyzes-more-peoples-data-previously-revealed/67287/

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 21:47, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

An article explaining the mathematics, and how three hops can mean millions of people.

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/you-may-already-be-a-winner-in-nsas-three-degrees-surveillance-sweepstakes/

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 03:34, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

House Judiciary committee meeting

The exchange with Cohen is worth studying for information about logistics. One thing I picked up on, that generally seems to have been missed is sworn testimony concerning Snowden's social networks as a potential means to gain information, if not necessarily access. One other item to note: according to the testimony of Inglis to Cohen, that Snowden had a rarefied set of permissions. That the means by which his documents left the control of the NSA's facilities still isn't precisely understood.

Cohen ..... Now let me ask you this, sir: Mr Snowden, what security status did he have? He could see anything there that he wanted to? Was he limited in what he had access to?

Cole: Let me put that over to Mr Inglis.

Cohen: Sure

Inglis: Mr Snowden had a top secret special compartmented intelligence clearance, that's a standard for someone in the US intelligence community. Given access to top-secret information. He as a system administrator had additional privileges that he could set the permissions on various devices within the information systems, who could access things and how you could move data round.

Cohen: Generally how many people -- how many people generally are in the same level as he was, to access this information? Inglis: Across the population -- and again in this forum I'll be general in my description, but across the population numbering in tens of thousands you would expect hundreds of people with with -- that have those sorts of extraordinary permissions -- in a System administrator position ----

Cohen: so tens of thousands of people could have done what Snowden did?

Inglis: No sir, I'd say that perhaps hundreds. And could I make a further distinction between his privileges in terms of what he could control? Like any organization, NSA has a side of its information architecture that is intended to make information available to people so that they might discover capabilities, they might find each other, they might pass email to each other. It's intended to be a free exchange of information. But then there's a production side, that's much more rigorously controlled, and there's a need to know rule -- philosophy on that side. Now Mr. Snowden took ruthless advantage of the former and did not have access to the latter, except in some limited circumstances, in the training he undertook. In the last few months of his ----

...

Cohen: And how did Mr Snowden take his information with him? He's got certain information in Moscow with him now. Did he -- how did he do that?

Inglis: Sir, we don't actually know precisely how he took the information and it's a matter of investigation and in due course we will know, and we would be happy to provide ----

Cohen: But he would probably taken it on some type of a disk? or some type of a little -- with him? -- at at

Inglis: I just a...

Cohen: ...from a secure facility I presume

Inglis: ...just be speculating, but that's possible

(Abridged Transcript and emphasis mine, any errors in the transcript are mine)

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/event/221726

Time index 1:52:00 --71.20.55.6 (talk) 10:15, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Very interesting. I'll bet the press will be picking up on this shortly as they review the transcript in detail. There's also the "2 or 3 jumps" language that people are blogging and tweeting about. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:35, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Caught that, but I haven't found a media source that really illustrates the problem as graphically as it really should be. Incidentally 3 hops allows those 300 phone queries to obtain nearly everybody in the US. if you pick 300 random people, a three hop query can easily return a million unique individuals per person, multiply those out, you can get 300 million presuming no overlap. If you pick 300 terrorists, you might have a higher degree of overlap than choosing random people, nonetheless, those queries can return an astonishing number of phone records on totally innocent individuals. The Oracle of Bacon is one example of a social graph. Below is an example on how many people a three-hop query could return on Osama Bin Ladin using the Oracle of Bacon (which is only querying the IMDB (movie/film database, and yes OBL really is in the IMDB). But if you listen to Bill Binney, he describes how these can be overlaid to form three dimensional social graphs.

Osama bin 
Laden      Number 
Number   of People
0 	1
1 	55
2 	5429
3 	536114
4 	1659852
5 	304412
6 	21074
7 	1995
8 	265
9 	23
10 	7
Total number of linkable actors: 2529227
Weighted total of linkable actors: 9923529
Average Osama bin Laden number: 3.924 

http://oracleofbacon.org/onecenter.php

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ5ilIMeRlQ

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 19:11, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

PS. For fun, and illustration, you can Connect OBL and Kevin Bacon in 3 hops. Osama bin Laden (Knowledge is for Acting Upon: The Manhattan Raid (2006)) -> Rahimullah Yusufzai ("Frontline" (1983) {Return of the Taliban (#24.9)) -> Will Lyman (Mystic River (2003)) -> Kevin Bacon

http://oracleofbacon.org/movielinks.php?a=Kevin+Bacon&b=Osama+bin+Laden&use_using=1&u0=on&u1=on&use_genres=1&g0=on&g4=on&g8=on&g12=on&g16=on&g20=on&g24=on&g1=on&g5=on&g9=on&g13=on&g17=on&g21=on&g25=on&g2=on&g6=on&g10=on&g14=on&g18=on&g22=on&g26=on&g3=on&g7=on&g11=on&g15=on&g19=on&g23=on&g27=on&g28=on

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 19:30, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Fascinating. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 22:08, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Snowden invited to a hearing of the European Parliament in September

The list also includes Bill Binney, Mark Klein, Glenn Greenwald, and many others.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/07/18/european_parliament_wants_snowden_nsa_chief_to_testify_on_u_s_spying.html

http://www.janalbrecht.eu/themen/datenschutz-und-netzpolitik/vorgeschlagene-zeugen-fuer-die-nsa-untersuchung-im-innenausschuss.html

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 03:00, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Michael Hayden, ex-NSA chief, ex-CIA chief, is against Snowden

The title of the article doesn't say it but Hayden is also an ex-NSA chief.

• Hayden, Michael. "Ex-CIA chief: What Edward Snowden did." CNN. Friday July 19, 2013.

WhisperToMe (talk) 16:34, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Proposed Legislation

Government Surveillance Transparancy Act, if passed, would allow companies to publish aggregate statistics on FISA orders, and the number of user accounts affected.

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/morning_call/2013/07/new-bill-lets-us-companies-talk-about.html

http://larsen.house.gov/sites/larsen.house.gov/files/2013.07.Government%20Surveillance%20Transparency%20Act%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 18:48, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Meanwhile, the NSA was given yet another extension by that one court. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:34, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

France government reaction

France denied on July 02 2013 the entry in french airspace to a plane because of supposition (transmitted by USA agency to french DCRI) that Edward Snowden was aboard. In reality that was the Falcon Jet of Bolivia's president Evo Morales. On July 4th, Manuel Valls, french minister of interior, said that this issue is complex and france could not legally admit asile to Edward Snowden. According to to french layer Maître Eolas, France can legally accept this kind of case with article 1 of the CRSR (Convention on Refugee status) and OFPRA (french office on refugees). Sources : "Le Canard Enchainé" - 10 Juillet 2013 - Page3 & Page8 - http://wikileaks-press.org/edward-snowden-and-france/ --78.251.14.118 (talk) 08:25, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Germaneness

Rather than engage in an edit war with tippygoomba I am asserting the relevance of Private search engines to Prism, and to Snowden, and am seeking formal dispute resolution.

Here's why: Edward Snowden revealed the existence of PRISM, and other pervasive domestic and international spying programs. This information has led to the increased popularity of means by which ordinary citizens may evade such. Here is a graph showing the in of usage in DuckDuckGo immediately following his revelations.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/techchron/2013/06/24/huge-traffic-spike-hits-private-search-engines-after-nsa-leaks/

Similarly, below is an article showing the increase in traffic in ixquick and startpage, again directly related to PRISM and other revelations made by Snowden.

http://www.ibtimes.com/nsa-prism-leaks-boost-private-search-engines-startpage-ixquick-pass-4-million-daily-searches-1346457

This trend is a direct result of the actions of Mr Snowden, and is relevant to the discussion about him.

If this user would care to assert a stronger case for non-germaneness than my case for relevance, rather than act as sole arbitrator, he or she is welcome to do so.

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 22:14, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

The section I removed, is not related to the improvement of the article. It's promotion. One of the sources you now give is a blog, useless. But the other source looks fine. Would you like to suggest an edit? TippyGoomba (talk) 23:17, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes. I prefer to stay away from editing this article directly. I have a horse in the race. A line mentioning a rise in the use of private or non-logging search engines is fine, I don't even see a need to name any particular one. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 01:07, 21 July 2013 (UTC) (AKA Paul)

I agree with 71.20.55.6 and find TippyGoomba's deletion of talk page content to be well over the line. WP:TPO doesn't provide for the removal of comments that some may see as promotional. If 71.20.55.6 can't raise these issues on the talk page then we don't even have a place to discuss whether they're promotional. And in this case I don't see 71.20.55.6's comments as promotional. He/she has made lots of valuable contributions to this article that have nothing to do with the websites allegedly being promoted. Some I have agreed with, some I have not. But to delete these types of suggestions from the talk page is totally inappropriate. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:37, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it's better to leave such comments in talk and then call them out as spam (or whatever) if necessary. Leaving it visible should pre-empt someone else restating the same stuff and starting the cycle again. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:45, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Germany uses XKeyscore

Der Spiegel reports that Germany is a prolific user of the NSA's program XKeyscore. Snowden revealed the existence of XKeysore, in relation to the NSA's operations in Latin America. But it is not stated whether he is the source of the information regarding Germany's use of it.

The article reveals some new details about XKeyscore itself.

According to an internal NSA presentation from 2008, the program is a productive espionage tool. Starting with the metadata -- or information about which data connections were made and when -- it is able, for instance, to retroactively reveal any terms the target person has typed into a search engine, the documents show. In addition, the system is able to receive a "full take" of all unfiltered data over a period of several days -- including, at least in part, the content of communications.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-intelligence-agencies-used-nsa-spying-program-a-912173.html

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 03:01, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Smells like WP:COATRACK#The_Flea. The source you give is only tangentially related to snowden and you give no suggestion for improving the article.TippyGoomba (talk) 03:17, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

The reason I am not directly giving explicit suggestions is to avoid bias. I am merely pointing out sources, and new information. If editors find that these sources are worth including, independent of a direct suggestion. They may. Or if they find that these sources are valuable fodder for the related articles on PRISM, The 2013 mass spying scandal, or in this case XKeyscore (which didn't have it's own article last I checked), They may do so. this is also the reason that the are going on the talk page, instead of the main page. The other reason I am using the Snowden page is that is a place editors of the related articles have also been checking. It is also worth noting that this talk page is being cleaned by an archiving bot on a routine basis. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 04:00, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

A Protest rally at a suspected NSA site in Germany.

The rally held at Dagger Complex, near Griesheim.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/protest-rally-suspected-german-nsa-site-19723354

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 03:09, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

And this relates to improving the article how? TippyGoomba (talk) 03:13, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Describes social impact of revelations. Suggested for including in the 2013_mass_surveillance_scandal related article. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 03:46, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Omission of religion?

Why is this here? (role of KGB/FSB)

In the article under the sub title 'Moscow', this appears. ' The Russian broadsheet daily Kommersant reported on the same day that Snowden was being awaited by a limousine known to belong to the Soviet KGB's successor agency, the FSB,'

This is better. ' The Russian broadsheet daily Kommersant reported on the same day that Snowden was being awaited by a limousine known to belong to the the FSB,'

Mention of the KGB is irrelevant. The KGB was dismantled and ceased to exist from November 1991. 22 odd years ago. Anyone clicking on the FSB blue link will work it out whats what if they dont know. Is the KGB's mention supposed to add a sinister tone? What exactly? Blade-of-the-South (talk) 10:26, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Read this editorial for some perspective on the situation. Also, I note that Snowden has virtually disappeared from coverage. That alone could have sinister overtones. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:46, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm baffled as to why one might think any mention of the KGB is appropriate, and the source cited by Bugs doesn't help. Misplaced Pages doesn't hide the ball. If there's something "sinister" that meets our inclusion standards (neutral, notable, supported by reliable sources, etc.) then it should be stated explicitly. If it doesn't meet our standards then it should be omitted. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:23, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Maybe to help educate the naive users who think that the mindset of the KGB disappeared just because it was reorganized and given a new name - and as the article notes, Putin is a KGB guy himself. Unless you want this article to pretend that Russia supports human rights despite its behavior toward human rights activists. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:35, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

What is the mindset of the KGB? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:15, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

The same as it always was. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:18, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Please explain without the veiled references. Most of us aren't as versed in Russian history as you. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:22, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

The real point is this: Whether the KGB needs a direct reference is questionable. But we have to be careful not to have the article treat Russian authorities as just a bunch of good ol' boys who would never arrest someone for political reasons. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:18, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I grow ever more weary of BB's warnings. I wish he'd keep his POV to himself. Gandydancer (talk) 19:31, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I grow ever more weary of all the hero-worship here. I wish the hero-worshippers'd keep their POV to themselves. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:04, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Wow bugs are you reading what you write. C'mon ! It’s so POV. This is an encyclopaedia. All this non neutral KGB justification flummery is just so not Misplaced Pages. Im going to change it based on concensus. 3 to 1.Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:25, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not justifying mentioning it. I'm just questioning the reasoning for removing it. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:34, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Bugs someone else thinks you are, its been changed by them already.Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:36, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Far be it from Misplaced Pages to remind the viewing public of what's going on. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:40, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Snowden is getting close to falling off the CNN front page. If the claims in this article are factual, Snowden didn't compromise us as much as he might have thought he did. But we'll see. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:46, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

It's an interesting article, but not an indication of fading from the headlines. CNN has been focusing more on Snowden as a person, rather than the information he revealed. If he does make it from the Airport for Moscow proper on Wednesday, as his lawyer indicates may happen, I feel CNN et al will have an article. I prefer to wait and see what happens with regards to his movements rather than speculating. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 00:05, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it's an evolving story, and he'll be back in the headlines if something happens ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:26, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Snowden's lawyer happens to do public relations for the FSB (that would be the straight-forward interpretation of " also sits on the 'public council' of the Federal Security Service (FSB), which... ccording to its website... works to "develop a relationship" between the security service and the public. Its fifteen members have to be approved by the head of the FSB," no?) Kucherena, by the way, is quoted here saying in Russian that there ought to be legislation that punishes the creators of software that allows access to banned websites. Another person invited to meet Snowden was Olga Kostina, who has also done PR for the FSB (take a look at The New Nobility: The Restoration of Russia's Security State and the Enduring Legacy of the KGB and you'll find " explained that the FSB had created an 'unofficial' press service to which journalists could turn more freely than to the agency’s official public communications center, and she was hired to organize this work... The following week Kostina invited to join the 'pool' of journalists briefed by the FSB."--Brian Dell (talk) 09:01, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Brian Dell Whats your point please? In relation to this thread. I cant see it. The FSB blue link in the article has enough info, history and agency succession stuff to satisfy any spy agency tragics, surely. A Snowden article is not the place for it. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 09:52, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

It's important to not pretend in this article that the Russian agencies are benign. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 10:05, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm taking issue with the claim in this thread that "any mention" of the KGB/FSB would not be "appropriate". Agence France-Presse has noted Kucherena's connections to Russian intelligence in a story about Snowden and it would accordingly be appropriate for Misplaced Pages to likewise do so.--Brian Dell (talk) 10:14, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Undergraduate degree

Under the topic of education, a description is given of his high school GED and his on-line studying for a Master's, but no information is given of his undergraduate degree.

Can someone find and add this information? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.150.249.23 (talk) 01:24, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

If you google you will find various articles (seemingly very similar to each other) stating that he attended several colleges' undergraduate classs, but never got a degree. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:05, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Research tip

Apparently references to classified projects and even some descriptions sometimes appear in the public resumes of intelligence analysts. I even spotted job listings for XKeyscore and other programs.

http://niqnaq.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/strange-creatures-crawl-out-of-the-woodwork-of-the-web-and-wriggle-in-the-unaccustomed-light/

http://jobs.saic.com/job/Columbia-XKEYSCORE-Systems-Engineer-Job-MD-21044/2679775/

I'm bemused, and even a bit disturbed. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 02:08, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

That explains a few things. Does Snowden have a Linked In page? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:19, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

There are several unrelated Edward Snowdens and a joke/hoax LinkedIn page

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dir/?first=Edward&last=Snowden&search=Search

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 02:30, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

You can even find out what people who work with these programs make and get a graph of salary over time. At the risk of running in to notforum yet again: if these programs are so secret, why has the government been telling everybody? And would there even be any point in draining Snowden's laptop? If I can query a public database, so can the Russians, Chinese, and even the little boy who lives down the lane.

http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Xkeyscore+System+Support&l1=Fort+Meade%2C+MD&q2=Blarney&l2=Fort+Meade%2C+MD&q3=Pinwale+System+Support&l3=Fort+Meade%2C+MD&q4=PRISM+System+Support&l4=Fort+Meade%2C+MD&q5=Fairview+System+Support&l5=Fort+Meade%2C+MD&q6=Stellar+Wind&l6=Fort+Meade%2C+MD&q7=Mainway&l7=Fort+Meade%2C+MD&q8=Trailblazer&l8=Fort+Meade%2C+MD&q9=Nucleon&l9=Fort+Meade%2C+MD&q10=Turbulence&l10=Fort+Meade%2C+MD&q11=Marina&l11=Fort+Meade%2C+MD&q12=Conveyance&l12=Fort+Meade%2C+MD&q13=Fallout&l13=Fort+Meade%2C+MD

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 04:23, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Addendum: Trailblazer ,stellar wind, and Conveyance are false positives. Unrelated corporate programs. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 04:31, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

US Government official says Snowden "did not get 'crown jewels'"

• Starr, Barbara. "Official: Snowden did not get 'crown jewels'." CNN. July 22, 2013.

WhisperToMe (talk) 05:40, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Fascinating article but it doesn't appear to be reliable. CNN acknowledges that they couldn't confirm the information and identified the source's potential motive for putting out disinformation. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 05:44, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Snowden made all kinds of claims about what he could allegedly do in his job. Has anyone confirmed those claims? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 07:01, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Bugs start another thread, see how you go. Maybe call it 'Snowden made all kinds of claims'. Reference it like crazy. Well see how it stacks up Blade-of-the-South (talk) 09:59, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

That was in the early days of this adventure, in one of those Guardian interviews I think, where he alleged that he could spy on anyone at any time, in contradiction to the alleged limits of the Patriot Act and these various secret court hearings. Did anyone confirm that his claims are for real, or is it only his word? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 10:04, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Does it matter? It's included in the article as an assertion and not as fact. It'll only get proven by another whistleblower somewhere down the line. It's not like the NSA are going to come out and admit that anyone has that kind of access, for that would be shooting themselves in the foot. -- Ohc _{¿que pasa?} 10:10, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Then the recent government comment should also be presented as an "assertion", as it's every bit as valid as Snowden's assertions until proven otherwise. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 10:20, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Geez, Bugs I wont be as subtle. Please stop hijacking threads. If you have an issue create a sub title and explore it. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 10:54, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

This is all the same topic. (I had posted the same basic reference as the OP here, but it got lost somewhere). The argument is being made that because CNN can't confirm the veracity of the government statement, it should be viewed with skepticism. Likewise, since CNN nor anyone else can confirm the veracity of some of Snowden's statements, they should also be viewed with skepticism. In fact, using the logic of Oh Confucious, any statement the government makes is self-serving and disinformation - so any statement they have made that confirms part of what Snowden says, logically has to bring both parties' credibility into question. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:30, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

1. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/22/us-usa-security-snowden-russia-idUSBRE96L0LF20130722?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=992637

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