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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by SonofSetanta

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

SonofSetanta (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – SonofSetanta (talk) 13:31, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

Appeal against a topic ban as per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles

Administrator imposing the sanction

Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by <SonofSetanta>-Arbitration_enforcement_action_appeal_by_SonofSetanta-2013-09-05T16:50:00.000Z">

It would be my feeling that the ban was imposed incorrectly because the sysops involved did not take me at my word. The detail of the complaint clearly shows I was having difficulty with a process, receiving help from others, engaging in discussion and most importantly, reverting edits which I clearly thought were vandalism. I made no alteration to the text of the article and my decision to nominate it for deletion wouldn't have taken effect immediately but would have required discussion which clearly could have resulted in another method of dealing with my concerns over the article. The situation wasn't helped by the intervention of an editor called Mo aimn. I believe his alterations were designed to invite reverts from me as he knew I would be under preessure and make mistakes. He wold have observed this from previous (unhappy) interaction with me.

From the text of the complaint you can see that sysops and some other editors argued for a ban because I had been consistently disruptive since 2008 and should have known by now how to nominate a page for deletion. They claim I have hidden two previous identities to avoid scrutiny by sysops. They appear to ignore the representations made by the other editors who were involved and who speak in support of me being confused but discussing. I am accused of causing a "Battle Royale" over image copyright. This is far from true. I was accused of deliberate copyright violation yes, but after several weeks of activity was able to prove that I had never violated copyright but had made mistakes in the pretty complicated area of Crown Copyright on images uploaded in 2008.

The facts are:

1. I have not edited constantly since 2008. I had a username for 2 months in 2008 before retiring under pressure from edit-warring gamers. A second identity was created in 2008 which lasted for around four months. My current identity was created in 2010 but used sparingly until May of this year with only a handful of edits in 2010, 2011 and 2012. The truth is my editing history spans 12 months since 2008 with substantial breaks.

2. My issues since 2008 have always revolved around articles concerning the Irish Troubles and my unsuccessful attempts to edit out POV where I saw it. A dedicated cabal was roaming the wiki ensuring that all of these articles were guarded and kept with their particular POV intact. My opposition to this was noted and I became a target for "gaming" to get me off the wiki. It sounds bizarre but it has happened to many people who have dared to edit these articles with a neutral POV. Why don't I just leave these articles alone? I am from Northern Ireland and am of very moderate views. I also have a passionate interest in the military of Ireland, our police forces and the British Military. Why should I not edit the articles? In my opinion, after examining what happens and being part of it, the thing to do is to stay involved and to try and assist admins in identifying what can be done to prevent this type of gaming.

3. I am not guilty of copyright violation or disruption but this is used against me by sysops and those supporting a call for me to be banned. All I did was to stand my ground, discuss, learn and save the images which were tagged for deletion. Why is this wrong?

4. The most important point is that I was not disruptive. I tried to nominate a page for deletion. Several AfD patrollers came at me from nowhere and so quickly that the situation was developing whist I was responding to them on the talk page of the article, their own talk pages and mine.

5. After the ban was applied I adjusted the licencing on image https://en.wikipedia.org/File:5_UDR_Record_Sleeve.jpg. I was not aware that such an action was a violation of the ban and pointed this out at Sandstein's talk page. Without warning I was then blocked. Was that fair?

Summary:

The real meat of the issue is at the article talk page: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Shoot-to-kill_policy_in_Northern_Ireland#Tags The edit history will show me putting in headers including the 1RR Troubles Restriction before opening a discussion as required to debate the possible deletion of the page. I am experienced in 1RR and wouldn't have engaged in an edit war. My belief was that I was reverting vandalism and that can be seen in my edit summaries. The issue to me is that sysops are claiming I'm being disingenuous when all the evidence says otherwise. I think it has to be examined why an uninvolved user (Psychonaut), who is a copyright enforcer, came to file the complaint at AE and why Mo aimn became involved. Both of them excacerbating an issue which was by then under control and clealry needed no further intervention as an admin was already involved. If the admin didn't feel it necessary to file a complaint why did Psychonaut?

I request that the ban be overturned and my name cleared. If possible the block that was applied to my user name because I did not understand that image pages were not part of the ban should be expunged.

Only since May this year have I been able to edit at any pace on Misplaced Pages. My success in doing so had me feeling for the first time that I was a real and active part of the Misplaced Pages community. I brightened up my talk page for the first time ever by putting in colour and infoboxes. I want to stay as part of the community and I believe the outcome of my learning when I was thrust into copyright issues proves that I am willing to work hard to remain and be productive. Where I think the problem lies is that some editors still want to play games and sysops are too prone to looking for past demeanours to prove a knee jerk feeling that someone is being disruptive - that people like me can't learn to avoid being gamed. The central issue is that the content of an article wasn't the cause of my error. I was learning a new process, made mistakes, and thought what I was doing was subject to vandalism (for a short period). No credit has been given to me for backing down and following instruction given by other, concerned and helpful editors and admins.

• I wish to correct the statement by Sandstein (below) where he says that "several administrators had declined the speedy deletion request". This is untrue. One administrator was involved, the other three people who tried to help were ordinary editors who could see I was having trouble and were trying to assist, as is evidence on the article talk page. The fourth editor who joined in was Mo ainm whose motives I doubted. The "speedy deletion" request was never declined. The tag was removed by several people, three of whom joined in the discussion. I think Sandstein's statement is testament to the fact that he did not in fact apply logic to his rationale or examine what happened closely but rather based his decision (and persuaded others to do likewise) on the track record of the identity The Thunderer which I ceased to operate on 28 November 2008. The previous identity GDD1000 contains only 1 block on 27 April 2008. My current identity has been operated since October 13 2010 and I had little difficulty until recently with 1 block in 2010, 3 in 2012, one of which was lifted and nothing since until quite recently when I was (incorrectly in my opinion) blocked because I would not accept the removal of File:The Yellow Card.jpg from the article at Ulster Defence Regiment. I insisted the card could be the subject of discussion at NFCC whilst remaining at the article and as it transpires I was correct. The file was deemed to be valuable enough to be kept and is still there, proving I was correct all along. It was I who Cailil banned for 48n hrs however, not the copyright enforcer who made the error. The learning curve I went through as a result however improved my knowledge of copyright to the extent that I am currently (and have been all week) assisting copyright enforcers in the removal of dozens of copyvio images and replacing them on Commons with correctly licenced version. SonofSetanta (talk) 16:50, 5 September 2013 (UTC)"> ">

• I would like to say that, in my opinion, allowing the same sysops who were involved in the imposition of a ban to conduct appeals, as in this case, is a flawed policy. My appeal was dismissed within 15 minutes by a sysop who had advocated a topic ban and by his comments it can be seen that the appeal decision was not a considered one but was influenced by opinions he had already formed during the AE case. SonofSetanta (talk) 10:37, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

I am very alarmed that a single administrator seems to have made a final decision here. Where's the discussion, the process? Does my submission not warrant comment

@NW - Thank you for your comments. Yes: in the event of my appeal failing if it were possible to allow me to continuing editing at Ulster Defence Regiment to maintain my goal for GA status I would be grateful. I have made this request before. The UDR is a complicated subject however and it has at least another 18 pages associated with it which deal with the 15 battalions as per List of battalions and locations of the Ulster Defence Regiment and also List of attacks on the Ulster Defence Regiment plus Timeline of Ulster Defence Regiment operations. The ancillary articles could be raised to B Class at least, if not GA status with a comprehensive amount of work. Part of the peer review report suggested reducing the size of the article and to that end I have been considering removing the fairly substantial women's section here to an article which would probably have the title "Greenfinches (Women's UDR)". If I were allowed to edit in this area a topic ban on the troubles wouldn't matter to me because I had already (as the AE case shows) withdrawn voluntarily from that topic. whilst I may have the knowledge to contribute usefully in that area I find that I'm not able to find proper collegiate responses generally and would prefer to maintain a distance, even though my fingers twitch at the sight of some of the more glaring examples of POV and inaccuracy within many of those articles. SonofSetanta (talk) 13:05, 6 September 2013 (UTC)"> ">

@Salvio. In your statement you say: we should not substitute our own opinions to those of the admin(s), but that is exactly what I believe is required. The admins have stated that they based their opinion on the fact that I have been a user for five years and have treated me as an experienced user. If you read my statement above you will see that I contest that view. Even if it were true however it remains that some areas of Misplaced Pages are quite complicated and if one hasn't engaged in a particular process before it can prove to be difficult and need experimentation. I've always been encouraged to apply WP:BOLD and try new processes and I have learned a lot since 22nd of June this year when I commenced editing full time, something I've never done before. My editing history shows that I have made 4329 edits. Almost 3500 of those have been made since 22nd June. This is the only period since I first joined Misplaced Pages where I have enjoyed editing on a productive and collegiate basis without considerable WP:BATTLE taking place as a result of my edits. In my opinion this is clearly because of the absence of certain editors who opposed what I was doing on partisan grounds. In my previous identities the edit count of both equates to what I've done in the period June 22nd until now. It can clearly be seen from my interaction with other editors and admins that, for the first time, I can identify myself as part of the Misplaced Pages community and am behaving in a commensurate manner.

The issue at stake here is: did I conduct my editing in a disruptive manner and then try to be disingenuous in my comments, or did I simply make errors in good faith whilst attempting a new process ? Did the sysops involved treat my case on the basis of my editing history since 22nd June or was I topic banned because of what happened in a previous identity? Has my conduct changed from previous identities? Look at how I followed the guidance given to me during the incident. examine how I stopped reverting what I considered to be vandalism when it was explained how I should go about it. Did I change the content of the article or was I simply trying to make a case for deletion in the full knowledge that it would lead to a discussion on the talk page rather than an instant deletion of the article? Did I engage in discussion? Did I seek help from admin? (The answer to both of those questions is yes).

@Sandstein. You claim: SonofSetanta does not recognize that the sanction is a result of their own conduct, and instead assigns blame to others. You state that: {SonofSetanta} has a relatively long record of blocks for disruption in the "Troubles" topic area, under three accounts. Did you not consider that I might have just made mistakes as I claim? Which would clearly fall into Misplaced Pages:Don't come down like a ton of bricks. That's not wikilawyering btw, the essay is there for all to read and you cannot blame an editor like me for quoting it to try and persuade you that you've got me wrong. Were you simply blinded by the fact that the article fall under Troubles Sanctions, an area which I worked in since 22nd June without similar difficulty (barring the copyright incident mentioned in my statement which is not Troubles related)? Nor was my attempt at nominating the page for deletion Troubles related. I feel I need to point out my opinion that {Troubles Restriction} was created to prevent edit warring over content on Troubles related argument. Not to prevent editors from learning and employing Misplaced Pages processes. The Troubles is an area where Misplaced Pages desperately needs editors. It is a very difficult area to work in. You've just lost me from that area because the Devil and all his imps couldn't persuade me to edit comprehensively on the subject again whilst you, as my personal Sword of Damocles, are going to come down on me like a ton of bricks every time I make a mistake which isn't content related.

FYI, and for the attention of all admins involved in this discussion. I am a disabled man. I know perfectly well that my private situation has no bearing on this case or upon my work in Misplaced Pages but it does mean: because I am unable to engage in gainful employment I have spent all day every day since 22nd June devoting my not inconsiderable intelligence, education, life experience and skills to improving Misplaced Pages, largely in a very difficult area to work in. I had no difficulties prior to the copyright incident. Would it not have been more prudent of you to encourage and cultivate my input rather than trying to portray me as a disruptive editor and applying draconian means to curtail my editing? I made a series of mistakes very quickly. Mo ainm's intervention wasn't helpful - if that's what you mean by me blaming others. Your wrongfully applied sanction could well have driven me away from Misplaced Pages: is that what you want?

Statement by Sandstein

I refer to the rationale I provided for the topic ban in the AE thread that led up to the ban on 24 August 2013, and to the conclusions reached by my administrator colleagues when they declined an appeal of the ban at WP:AE on 26 August 2013.

The appeal does not address the disruptive conduct by SonofSetanta identified in these proceedings, notably, edit-warring to reinstate a frivolous speedy deletion nomination of a "Troubles"-related article after several administrators had declined the speedy deletion request, as per the evidence provided in the AE request linked to above. In imposing the topic ban I considered that SonofSetanta has a relatively long record of blocks for disruption in the "Troubles" topic area, under three accounts:

• SonofSetanta (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• The Thunderer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• GDD1000 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

In this appeal, SonofSetanta does not recognize that the sanction is a result of their own conduct, and instead assigns blame to others. For this reason, the topic ban is still, in my view, a necessary and proportionate measure to prevent further disruption by SonofSetanta in this topic area. Accordingly, I recommend that the appeal be declined.  Sandstein  16:06, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Psychonaut

I see that SonofSetanta's appeal contains a request for investigation into my conduct (though I was never notified of same). I had hoped to avoid any further discussion of this user, but as he seems to have dragged me into this one I'm not sure it's avoidable.

I endorse Sandstein's conclusion that SonofSetanta seems unable to recognize his own disruptive behaviour, and that it was this behaviour (and not others' reports of it) which is the reason for his current and past sanctions. This lack of awareness is demonstrated most saliently by points 3, 4, and 5 of his appeal:

In (3) he flatly states that he is "not guilty of copyright violation or disruption", though this is precisely what he has been repeatedly blocked for; one needs only consult his various accounts' block logs and user talk pages here and on Commons to appreciate the scope of the problem. I was one (but neither the first, nor the most prolific) of several users who tagged his infringing images for deletion.

In (4) he claims he was "not disruptive" in the incident that led to his latest topic ban, which flies in the face of his next claim that "several AfD patrollers" had to engage with him in order to get him to stop edit warring over the deletion tag.

Finally in (5) he claims his latest block (for violating the topic ban) was unfair because it was without warning; however, he had been conspicuously notified of the topic ban on "everything related to The Troubles" (emphasis in original) on his user talk page on 24 August. The notice made it clear that noncompliance would result in blocks. In fact, a quick check over SonofSetanta's recent contributions shows that he still may not be complying with the topic ban. He's made a number of edits, for example, to Northern Ireland Security Guard Service, who according to the article are best noted for their controversial defence of a post-Good Friday attack by the Real IRA.

I have no opinion or recommendation concerning the outcome of this appeal; I just wanted to voice my support of Sandstein's observations and to rebut some of the claims made in the appeal. —Psychonaut (talk) 12:49, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by <SonofSetanta>-Arbitration_enforcement_action_appeal_by_SonofSetanta">

Result of the appeal by SonofSetanta

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Decline appeal. The idea behind discretionary sanctions is that we trust admins to exercise their judgement in a sound manner; as a result of that trust, I believe that, when dealing with an appeal against a restriction, we should not substitute our own opinions to those of the admin(s) who originally imposed the sanction de qua, but, rather, we should see if there was any abuse of discretion on the part of the imposing sysop(s). In this case, the sanction seems reasonable and, so, it should not be lifted. Salvio 11:05, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
• Decline, after having reviewed the situation fully. However, I am always in favor of salvaging situations with long term editors whenever possible, so let me ask you this SonofSetanta: Is there a particular article you would wish to work on and bring up to perhaps WP:GA status? I might be willing to carve out a single article exemption for you to work on. NW (Talk) 12:49, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Amendment request: Scientology

Initiated by The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} at 01:00, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Case affected

Scientology arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Other remedies
2. Log of warnings about discretionary sanctions

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• The Devil's Advocate (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Peter cohen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

• Peter Cohen notified
• Sandstein notified

Information about amendment request

• Other remedies
• The restriction against me that was issued by Sandstein is lifted.
• Log of warnings about discretionary sanctions
• A note is added below my warning and Peter's stating that the claims of misconduct underlying Sandstein's warnings were invalid.
• Furthermore I would ask that the oversighted edit I made on Sandstein's talk page be restored as it only contained public information available on the arbitration pages, a recent highly-trafficked noticeboard case, and a mention of an editor's previous username.

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

Note:Originally, I sought to appeal this restriction by e-mail out of respect for the privacy issues alleged by Sandstein, but was instructed to make the appeal publicly. My appeal below is a slightly altered version of that e-mail.

In the initial comment I made to Sandstein I noted User:Prioryman's previous account name was ChrisO (disclosed plainly on the ARBSCI page), pointed to a rather recent public discussion that concluded giving out Prioryman's real name was not outing, and described how the WP:ARBSCI case page itself plainly gives out Prioryman's identity in the finding of fact about him. The closest I personally came to giving out Prioryman's full name was noting his username.

Since Sandstein had blocked an editor for the apparent offense of noting Prioryman's name and conflict of interest regarding Scientology in the context of that editor's dispute with Prioryman over a Scientology-related article, this was all germane to the discussion. However, Sandstein's sanction against me did not even come at that point, but only after I responded to his warning. It appears the sanction was imposed solely because I mentioned Prioryman's previous username after Sandstein's warning.

At the AN discussion there was majority support, though not a clear consensus, for lifting the restriction against me. At the request for clarification several Arbitrators agreed that, in the specific case of Prioryman, even noting his real name was not outing and certainly not noting his previous account name. The one Arb who commented on my sanction directly said it should be lifted.

Seeing as all I did was note the name of a previous account and point to public arbitration pages and noticeboard discussions, the underlying charge of outing is invalid. A majority of those who commented say the restriction should be lifted and at least one Arbitrator said the same. The restriction should thus be lifted and the warnings, having been based on a false premise, should be noted as containing invalid claims of misconduct. My desire to see the suppressed edit on Sandstein's talk page be unsuppressed is to avoid the appearance of misconduct that goes with having an edit oversighted.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 01:00, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

@Salvio, as stated, my suggestion is to simply note the warnings were not making a valid claim of misconduct. It is less a questioning of "unissuing" the warning and more a matter of repudiating it. A note to the effect of "the warnings issued to The Devil's Advocate and Peter Cohen are found to be without merit" is sufficient.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:53, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Sandstein

To summarize the background from memory (without links so as not to link to private information):

I indef-blocked Drg55 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for outing and/or harassment by unnecessarily and despite another admin's warnings publicizing private information about another user in the course of a WP:AE request related to Scientology. I understand Drg55 unsuccessfully appealed that block to WP:BASC, and remains blocked. I also understand that the other user at issue, who may previously have engaged in significant misconduct themselves, is at the center of numerous controversies related to Gibraltar and Scientology (which are topics subject to discretionary sanctions) and also the target of off- and onwiki harassment activities because of that.

On my talk page, The Devil's Advocate and Peter cohen protested against the block of Drg55 and threatened community noticeboard discussions about it. To prevent such discussions becoming fora for continued outing and/or harassment, I warned both not to do that and to pursue private venues of appeal instead. Because of their misguided insistence, I also forbade The Devil's Advocate from engaging in public discussions related to this private information. Part of this talk page thread was suppressed by the oversight team because it contained private information. Nonetheless, Peter cohen launched a long and acrimonious ANI discussion which, as I predicted, did become a venue for outing private information, but did not achieve consensus about the appropriateness of my warnings and sanction. To understand how discretionary sanctions apply to such situations, I sought clarification by the Committee, and my impression of the tenor of their response was that discretionary sanctions may be used in the way I did, even if the misconduct by Drg55 might have been "only" harassment and not outing in the strict sense because the private information at issue might, as I then learned, have been indirectly acknowledged on-wiki years ago.

As a result of the clarification request, I wrote that the sanction regarding The Devil's Advocate could probably be lifted because it has proven unsuccessful in preventing the kind of problematic ANI discussion we then experienced, but that the two users at issue here, and others who participated in the ANI thread, should be warned that they may experience discretionary sanctions if they publish private information without compelling reasons. But I forgot to follow up on that - sorry. That is still what I think would be an appropriate course of action going forward. As for the warnings, I think they were appropriate and can, in any case, not be undone in any meaningful sense (though, if I may remind the Committee, we are still waiting on the result of your review of the rules about warnings and other aspects of DS). As to the oversighting, that is a matter for review (if needed) by the appropriate functionaries and processes, and probably not suited to onwiki discussion. All users should be reminded that our privacy rules must be taken seriously and that private information is not an appropriate subject of ANI drama fests, but that conflicts related to it should be resolved in the appropriate private venues.  Sandstein  09:53, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Should the Arbitration Committee come to the conclusion that my warnings and/or sanction were in error, I'd appreciate more detailed guidance as to how I can avoid such errors in the future. For instance, is the problem that it is an inappropriate use of discretionary sanctions to direct editors not to initiate public discussions (including public appeals) related to private information, or is it that the information at issue (the user's real name and the former username derived from it), which they want to be treated as private, should not in fact be treated as private? Additionally, I'd appreciate it if the Committee also considers whether additional warnings or actions are appropriate with regard to Peter cohen's approach to contesting his warning, which include numerous personal attacks here and in the earlier ANI thread.

I'd also appreciate it if the Committee could come up with a way to set up appeals against discretionary sanctions such that they are much faster and more conclusive. Because these sanctions are designed to be routinely and quickly used, we must expect that there will be disagreements concerning their application, and we should set up a dedicated, orderly process to handle these disagreements. Prior to this appeal, all users involved in this matter were forced to spend inordinate amounts of volunteer time discussing the same issues in an inconclusive and very lengthy and confrontational ANI thread.You should set up an appeals framework (whether before the Committee, the community, administrators or another authority) that has a defined structure, some degree of oversight, and is designated as the only place in which discretionary sanctions may be contested, much like WP:DRV for deletions and {{unblock}} for blocks. The present lack of structure contributes to the waste of our principal resource - time and attention - and contributes to an unnecessary personalization and emotionalization of good-faith disagreements that ought to be resolved in a professional and dispassionate manner.  Sandstein  07:24, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Statement by NE Ent

Of course the warnings can be undone -- it's a wiki. We just go to Misplaced Pages:ARBSCI#Other_remedies and Misplaced Pages:ARBSCI#Log_of_warnings_about_discretionary_sanctions and remove DA's and Peter's name with an edit summary linking to the AN discussion. NE Ent 10:54, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Statement by 204.101.237.139

@NE Ent: the warnings cannot be undone in any meaningful sense because the users cannot be made unaware of discretionary sanctions. The word 'warning' is the confusing part. It was never meant to imply wrongdoing. It was meant to notify of stricter rules. At some point down the line, someone altered the warning to imply wrongdoing. While well meaning, that only confused things. Removing their names in the way you describe would not make a practical difference since proof that the user is aware of DS can and has been used in place of the 'warning'. As Sandstein notes, we are still awaiting Arbcoms official review concerning that knot. 204.101.237.139 (talk) 15:58, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Peter cohen

I had been about to exercise my right to vanish having demonstrated to myself the ability to keep away from Misplaced Pages for a month. This was as a way to disassociate my real name from a subject (Scientology) with which I have had nothing to do and with which I intend to have nothing to do. Sandstein's arrogant refusal to examine his actions and most of Arbcom's failure to answer the questions I put not once but twice in the previous thread about this matter on this page having persuaded me that I want nothing to do with a project that is run by people such as you who are willing to give Sandstein free reign to bully anyone who points out that he has made a poor decision.

The matter of Prioryman's name and previous id came up last year in this long ANI thread. The closing summary mentioned that "There seems to be or nearly be a consensus that YRC did not violate WP:OUTING.". In short the community's judgment was that calling Prioryman by his real name, as User:Youreallycan did before the ANI thread and which User:Drg55 did before his ban, was not outing. It follows that Sandstein's decision to use WP:OUTING as a grounds for banning Drg55 went against the majority, consensus or near consensus of the community.

Both TDA and I referred Sandstein to the AN/I thread. (Although Sandstein's use of revdel meant that I was not clear of what exactly TDA had done.) Sandstein's response was to slap us both with Arbcom enforcement warnings on a subject with which I have had nothing to do. He also slapped an enforcement action on TDA. How Sandstein can be surprised that I went straight to ANI as my next step after his repeated abuse of admin power as a means of protecting his ego from being questioned by non-admins, just shows what a fool he is.

Returning to the AN/I thread that I reference above, you can find the following piece of dialogue

Thanks, Prioryman, so the issue is not the old username. Is it just the surname that is the issue?--Bbb23 (talk) 23:58, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's correct. Prioryman (talk) 23:59, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

So the fact that I referred to "User:ChrisO in my posting on Sandstein's page is of no import.

So, Arbcom, are you prepared to do something to retain an editor who has contributed a moderate amount of featured and good content or would you rather let Sandstein continue as your bully boy taking admin actions against anyone who points out that he has gone too far. If the latter, then please delete my user and user talk pages and rename my account to vanished user something or other.--Peter cohen (talk) 11:14, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Statement by A Quest for Knowledge

I don't see any reason why The Devil's Advocate's request should not be granted. The only question is whether Sandstein's warning to TDA was a warning or a notification. If it's just a notification, it cannot be undone since TDA is obviously aware of it. OTOH, if it's a warning, of course it can be undone. As NE Ent aptly points out, this is a Wiki. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:04, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Cla68

I just wanted to say that although Sandstein acted in error in how he initially handled this, to his credit he is now asking for feedback on what he should have done. Since ArbCom presides over WP's administration, you need to give him that feedback that he is asking for. Also, contrast the maturity of Sandstein's request with Timotheus Cannens' (TC) response when his administrator actions on the enforcement board regarding Mathsci's multiple conflicts with other editors, including yours truly, where he threatened to undo all of his previous enforcement actions if you undid one of his decisions. So, TC, should Sandstein do like you did and threaten to undo all of his previous admin actions if you guys decide he was incorrect? Cla68 (talk) 11:02, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Statement by {yet another user}

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• I frankly wouldn't mind if I never had to read another word about Prioryman's former username. However, the reminder that it's time for the Committee to post the proposed clarifications as to how discretionary sanctions should work is well-taken. Several of my colleagues have made this a priority task, though our attention has been diverted to finishing the active cases recently; I hope we can post something for comment soon. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:10, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
  • I would vacate the sanction and lift the warnings. The latter is a purely symbolic gesture, but this whole fiasco isn't worth losing editors over. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:08, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
• Partially grant appeal. As I've said the last time we discussed this issue, I believe that, in this case, the sanction Sandstein imposed on TDA is unreasonable and, in my opinion, an abuse of discretion. For that, I think it should be lifted. On the other hand, warnings, once issued, cannot be unissued in any meaningful sense and, so, in that respect, the appeal should be declined. Salvio 11:25, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
• Agree entirely with Salvio,  Roger Davies 11:37, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

• For information, the long-awaited draft update to Discretionary sanctions procedures has now been posted for scrutiny and discussion here. If adopted, the new procedure would downgrade all existing warnings to alerts (or notices) and thus remove the perceived stigma and finding of fault sometimes attaching to them. The discussion page is here. In the light of this, there is probably no reason to rescind the warnings. Roger Davies 07:37, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Amendment request: Locke Cole

Initiated by —Locke Cole • t • c at 06:51, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Case affected

Locke Cole arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Netoholic and Locke Cole not to interact with each other
2. Enforcement of interaction ban

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Locke Cole (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Netoholic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) notified by Callanecc

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

• Unable to inform other editor due to interaction ban.

Information about amendment request

• Request that the remedies stated above be halted.

Statement by Locke Cole

It's been nearly seven years since this case was before ArbCom and I think we're well past the point where our interactions could cause us problems. I request that the committee remove the interaction ban and the enforcement provision. —Locke Cole • t • c 06:51, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

@Netoholic: The precursor to this amendment request was ending up on your talk page and wanting to apologize, then realizing we still had an ages old interaction ban. Hopefully interacting here is safe. The primary point of our dispute has long since been settled, and without either of our involvement really. For my part in it though, I do apologize and wish you well. —Locke Cole • t • c 20:27, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

@Arbitrators: I respect Netoholic's feelings, especially considering what we went through. I'd also like to think we've both matured over the past seven years. I'm also aware that, in the unlikely (and really, in my view, impossible) scenario that he and I were to "lock horns" again over something, this committee would be within its rights to re-establish these restrictions (and likely enact some punitive punishment for having put their faith in us). —Locke Cole • t • c 20:27, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Collect

The "Editor Interaction Analyzer" shows an exceedingly unlikely chance of interacting badly IMO. Zero articles in common in over five years ... how long is needed? Collect (talk) 17:24, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Netoholic

I appreciate that some people might think this remedy has outlived its usefulness, Locke's statement is too short on substance for me to gauge what mutual benefit would be gained. I'd like the restriction to stay in place. I don't see any harm in leaving the status quo since it only affects me and him, but I also don't see any good that can come from lifting it. If Locke wishes to lift this restriction now so that he can interact with me, I'd prefer instead that he seek assistance from a third party and potentially prevent our mutual hot-headedness from becoming an issue. -- Netoholic @ 05:03, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• Could a clerk please notify Netoholic, as the other 50% of the interaction ban, about this? Many thanks in advance,  Roger Davies 07:03, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

 Done Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:22, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Received notice, and thank you. -- Netoholic @ 05:03, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Well, if Netoholic is also okay with the i-ban going, I wouldn't stand in your way. Probably best now to see what they have to say,  Roger Davies

• @Locke Cole: we have Netoholic's answer now. I'd likely oppose removing the i-ban.  Roger Davies 12:00, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

• Absent an objection from Netoholic, I too would agree to lifting the interaction ban. Risker (talk) 01:57, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
• Has there been any interaction (under the "necessary dispute resolution" exemption to interaction bans) between the subjects? Are they likely to interact if we vacate the ban, and do they work on similar articles and topics? AGK 14:02, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

• Decline at this time. AGK 18:33, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

• Collect answered you (I moved the commenting out tags to make Collect's statement visible). Given that Netoholic has only made 18 edits this year, and their last 50 edits go back to 2006, I think lifting the interaction ban is OK after a reasonable waiting period (2 weeks?), and on the understanding that Netoholic can reopen this amendment request if they have any objections when they see the message left on their talk page. Carcharoth (talk) 19:46, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Thank you, Netoholic for your statement. The irony as I see it is that being under an interaction ban requires that editor to remember this and thus (in a way) keeping thinking about an editor they may be trying to forget about. Surely a situation like this is ideally suited for voluntary and informal avoidance of each other, like many editors do every day? There should be some way to downgrade formal interaction bans to informal avoiding, with the option to reinstate a formal interaction ban if that becomes necessary. Would both of you (Netoholic and Locke Cole) agree to downgrade this from a formal restriction to an informal one? If not, then the interaction ban should probably stay in place, but you should both try and see a way for this to be lifted eventually so you can both co-exist without having to carefully avoid each other. Carcharoth (talk) 12:00, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
• Considering that Netoholic has opposed removing the IBAN, I need a good reason to support lifting the restriction. And "it's been 7 years" is not one. So, @Locke Cole:, why would you like to have the IBAN lifted? Salvio 11:45, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
• Interactions bans do not prevent positive editing. The terms of a ban are to prevent users from talking about or to each other. They can still edit the same articles providing they do not revert each other. As such, with one party still keen on the other not interacting with them, and the requesting party not putting forward a reasonable rationale for the ban to be lifted, I see no strong reason to lift the ban. It is helpful when considering lifting interaction bans if both parties had patched up their differences, possibly through an independent third party. Please ping me if either party makes a statement that may alter matters. SilkTork 14:05, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Clarification request: Pseudoscience#Principles

This request is about the following template found on many talk pages for articles and lists related to pseudoscience: Brangifer (talk) 06:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Initiated by IRWolfie- (talk) at 13:23, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• IRWolfie- (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• BullRangifer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• A Quest For Knowledge (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• QTxVi4bEMRbrNqOorWBV (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Statement by IRWolfie-

This banner is being used on article talk pages to imply that the arbitration committee has made rulings about content; i.e that the arbitration committee makes content decisions. Personally I was of the opinion that these were not rulings and not guidelines, merely foundational statements indicating some principals but with no binding or weight attached to them with respect to content decisions.

Examples of usage:

• "... we have chosen to use the ArbCom to step in when intractable problems arise, and it's best to abide by their decision. In this case it involved a type of content decision, but one that does not override RS. ..."
• This discussion where the ArbCom principles are used to imply content decisions:
• The specific examples given in the principles have been used to justify arguments about content decisions and the implied ability ArbCom has to make such content decisions despite these content decisions being outside the scope of ARBCOM.

Can ArbCom clarify what their 2006 principles are meant to indicate and whether they establish or merely align with (in 2006 anyway) content policy and guidelines i.e Are ArbCom making content decisions despite this being out of scope (Scope of Arbitration: "it will not make editorial statements or decisions about how articles should read ("content decisions"),"), and have they in the past?

Depending on the response, ArbCom may wish to remove wording which implies content decisions, particularly with respect to the specific examples. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:23, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

@Barney, who/what are you quoting when you say: "not discussing individual content". ArbCom can make no content rules at all whether for individual cases or not, IRWolfie- (talk) 21:39, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

@SteveMcCluskey, the specific articles you describe, such as astrology and parapsychology do receive advocates who attempt to push their views. For example on the astrology article there was an extremely large amount of disruption during a period ranging from last year to 2 years ago Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive681#Astrology.2C_fringe_POV_pushing.2C_meat-puppetry_and_general_disruptionMisplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive222#Astrology_banningsMisplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive99#Ludwigs2 Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive118#Zachariel. Calling the main articles of very notable pseudoscience topics, which have many related derivative articles (at least ~500 astrology articles) and their own wikiprojects "ancillary" seems a bit strange, IRWolfie- (talk) 12:54, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Statement by A Quest for Knowledge

I'm not sure what to make of this request because there are two separate, though related issues at the article in question, List of topics characterized as pseudoscience.

1. The first is whether ArbCom can make content decisions and whether this is an example of that. I'm in agreement with IRWolfie- that ArbCom cannot make content decisions. I'm undecided on whether this is an example of this.
2. The second issue is whether this text should be in the header instructions on the List of topics characterized as pseudoscience talk page. IRWolfie- has WP:BOLDly removed these instructions. Two editors, me and BullRangifer have objected. This text - regardless of its origin - has long standing consensus and should not be removed without consensus. I think that the principles outlined by ArbCom are sound and should stay in the header instructions. It doesn't matter to me whether ArbCom wrote them or somebody else. Its authorship is irrelevant. To make an analogy, it doesn't matter Shakespeare actually wrote Hamlet or somebody else; Hamlet would still be a great play. I want to be sure to make a point of this, that regardless of what ArbCom decides on issue #1, it in no way affects issue #2.

A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:17, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

BTW, I just noticed that these header instructions are also on WP:FRINGE's talk page (albeit with slightly different wording/formatting). While I realize that talk page instructions on a Misplaced Pages policy/guideline is not "official" policy/guideline, it does indicate to me that these instructions have community support, and therefore should stay. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:24, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

I was bold and implemented the suggestion by Roger Davies. AQFK (talk) 09:27, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Statement by BullRangifer

I have no problem with the template outlining the ArbCom decision about how to deal with pseudoscience. While in the end it is the community which makes decisions, we have chosen to use the ArbCom to step in when intractable problems arise, and it's best to abide by their decision. In this case it involved a type of content decision, but one that does not override RS. Their decision was more of a method for preventing the chaos and abuse which was a serious problem at the time, than a content decision. Using the four groupings for encyclopedic format is actually very wise and avoids problems. While the four groups aren't strictly "demarcations" in the Demarcation problem sense, they are very closely related to it. For practical "encyclopedic format" purposes we can still use them for "categorization" or "no categorization" because RS is another matter entirely. We must use RS for ALL content anyway, regardless of group.

One thing really cool about the template is how it stopped the chaos which reigned before the decision. If we stop following that advice, we ruin the delicate balance which has existed for several years, and open the Pandora's box which ArbCom closed and unleash some awful times of disruption. "If it's not broken, don't fix it," and it's not really broken, when we understand the purpose of the template and the ArbCom decision.

I understand how the itch (to categorically state that some nonsense "is" pseudoscience) demands to be scratched (I feel it too... ), but I think we need to resist that urge except in clear cases where the RS are clearly and dominantly of that opinion. We can still satisfy that itch for certain types of clear nonsense using groupings 1 & 2. Otherwise we can still document what RS say, including mentioning that some sources consider a subject to be pseudoscience, without including the article in Category:Pseudoscience. The ArbCom decision (group 3) still allows for that. Group 4 prevents the abuse by pushers of pseudoscience (pseudoskeptics) who insist on trying to sneak their fringe POV into mainstream articles about well established science. Group 4 prevents them from adding their fringe POV that a mainstream science subject is pseudoscience when it clearly is not.

So I support use of the template on relevant articles and lists, as well as following the good ArbCom decision. It's value has been proven now for several years. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I have taken the comments and suggestions found here and below into account and have sought to improve the template with some tweaks. So far it's actually been a box, which appears in slightly different version across many talk pages, so I've created a new template for the purpose:

{{ArbComPseudoscience}} produces this:

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to pseudoscience and fringe science, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Arbitration Ruling on the Treatment of Pseudoscience In December of 2006 the Arbitration Committee ruled on guidelines for the presentation of topics as pseudoscience in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience. The final decision was as follows: Neutral point of view as applied to science: Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, a fundamental policy, requires fair representation of significant alternatives to scientific orthodoxy. Significant alternatives, in this case, refers to legitimate scientific disagreement, as opposed to pseudoscience. Serious encyclopedias: Serious and respected encyclopedias and reference works are generally expected to provide overviews of scientific topics that are in line with respected scientific thought. Misplaced Pages aspires to be such a respected work. Obvious pseudoscience: Theories which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus, such as Time Cube, may be so labeled and categorized as such without more justification. Generally considered pseudoscience: Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience. Questionable science: Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized. Alternative theoretical formulations: Alternative theoretical formulations which have a following within the scientific community are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process.

You are all welcome to go to the talk page where we can seek further improvement. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:44, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Note that I have included AGK's suggestion below: "The reminder notice seems acceptable to me, and does not seem like it implies this committee has "ruled on content" in the area of pseudoscience. At most, the notice could be qualified by changing the first sentence so it reads "issued several rulings (which may be helpful to editors of this article)" – thus making clear that the principles are not enforceable pieces of quasi-policy."

Now it reads: "guidelines and several rulings which may be helpful to editors." Good advice is always welcome. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:48, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Roger. "Guidelines" has also been substituted for "rulings". Definitely improvements. -- Brangifer (talk) 22:28, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

SteveMcCluskey, I fear you fail to understand the purpose of the template. It is a guide for editors, and for those who come to those articles to push a fringe POV it can serve as a heads up. That happens quite often. If you will read my edit summaries, you will see that the talk pages where I placed the template are articles which are main articles for subjects in Category:Pseudoscience or main articles for some of its subcategories. It has nothing to do with whether an article is favorable toward or advocates pseudoscientific ideas, only that it is closely related to them, closely enough that the articles have been placed under the PSI category tree. If they should be removed from the category, deal with that in the appropriate place, not here.

You mention Astrology and Parapsychology as if I shouldn't have placed the template there, but those are classic examples of pseudoscience, and are correctly placed in the PSI category. If the template belongs anywhere, it's there, and your objection proves my point. ArbCom even used astrology as an example of something "Generally considered pseudoscience" - "Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience." ArbCom thought it was a good idea, and the community has totally accepted their good judgment in the matter.

If I went too far in some cases, it is only because an article is possibly miscategorized, and that's not my fault. I was not indiscriminately spamming the template. I have acted in complete good faith. As I explained at Talk:Flat Earth, categorization might be the issue there, but we also know that belief in a flat earth is a pseudoscientific idea. We know that the category tree structure is at times confusing and inconsistently applied, so this could be an issue, and it should be discussed there, not here. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:32, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Steve, I see you have commented at Talk:Flat Earth. That's good. The issue of sanctions only comes into play if an editor starts pushing fringe POV or is disruptive in such attempts. Otherwise there is nothing to fear. I have many times seen otherwise peaceful articles suddenly become hotbeds of disruption because of fringe POV pushers who seek to include pseudoscientific ideas or shift the focus of an otherwise neutral presentation so it favors a PSI POV. That's when ANY admin can point to the sanctions (and editors who see the template have been forewarned...) and give a clear warning. If that warning is ignored, the hammer has fallen many times. The sanctions are applied extremely BROADLY, even on subjects not directly related to PSI, but related to medical and scientific fringe ideas. So, to sum this up, it has nothing to do with the state of the article, but to editor behavior, even on the most peaceful and uncontroversial articles. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:23, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Steve, regarding the discretionary sanctions link, that link wasn't originally part of the box, but was a separate template which nearly always accompanied it. Since they belong together, I just combined them, and in fact simply included the template to the existing sanctions template which I did not create. It was created by ArbCom member NuclearWarfare. It is a milder version than another one which is often used:

The Arbitration Committee has permitted administrators to impose discretionary sanctions (information on which is at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions) on any editor who is active on pages broadly related to pseudoscience and fringe science. Discretionary sanctions can be used against an editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, satisfy any standard of behavior, or follow any normal editorial process. If you continue to misconduct yourself on pages relating to this topic, you may be placed under sanctions, which can include blocks, a revert limitation, or an article ban. The Committee's full decision can be read at the "Final decision" section of the decision page.

Please familiarise yourself with the information page at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions, with the appropriate sections of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Procedures, and with the case decision page before making any further edits to the pages in question. This notice is given by an uninvolved administrator and will be logged on the case decision, pursuant to the conditions of the Arbitration Committee's discretionary sanctions system.

I could have included that one, but I didn't. That one has been used on article talk pages as a general notice and on editor talk pages as a personal warning. Actually that one is more explanatory and should clear up your misunderstandings. It shows that the sanctions are clearly directed at user behavior in editing and commenting, and not at the exact article content. The content can be totally uncontroversial. If you had been here as long as many of us and been as involved in these subject, you would have known this. I chose NuclearWarfare's smaller template which mentions the article and users can follow the links if they choose.

Note that I have not created any of these boxes/templates, including the present one under discussion. I have only taken a widely used box and made it a template because editors who had no understanding of the ArbCom decision were making unfortunate tweaks. Now, after these discussions, I have replaced the box with the template which has been tweaked and greatly improved according to the suggestions here, and in some cases added it to some other articles which I thought would need it. In those cases, if it's not appropriate, we can remove the template, but the article should also be removed from the category, and that's a more serious matter. Again, I have not placed those articles in the category, so your wrath is still misplaced.

If having that sanctions link disturbs you so much, why don't you get ArbCom to drop the idea of sanctions entirely. You seem to have more of a beef with them than with me, but are making me the subject of your wrath. The community has been fine with the ArbCom decisions for many years, and the instructions and sanctions have served us very well. You seem to fail to understand the history here and rolling back this progress would lead to unfortunate consequences. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:01, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Barney the barney barney

1. I don't see a problem with the arbcom "not discussing individual content", because the banner text doesn't do this either, and is general in nature.
2. Quoting the arbcom decision is like quoting a legal precedent. The new case needn't have exactly the same circumstances as previous case, but a good lawyer involved in the new case should be aware of the previous case, and if appropriate make reference to them. This stops us having the same conversation over and over again.
3. Fringe topics are not for either (1) new editors (who do not understand the policies or how they're implemented) or (2) the feint-hearted (this perhaps ought not to be the case, but we have to deal with the reality not the ideology). A banner that makes this clear is helpful to anyone who falls into either of these categories. Barney the barney barney (talk) 18:14, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Enric Naval

One comment: in the template, the link "several rulings" is very outdated. --Enric Naval (talk) 18:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree that with SteveMcCluskey that the template should only be in articles where there have been problems. Otherwise, it looks like we are trying to dictate how editing should be done. --Enric Naval (talk) 16:06, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Statement by NE Ent

@Risker -- you're correct. The internet has trained folks not to read banners banners are invisible NE Ent 02:05, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Statement by SteveMcCluskey

I am a bit disturbed that in the past few days this template has been applied to many articles that discuss pseudoscientific beliefs in an objective, historical, fashion without any advocacy for these beliefs. I came across this problem at the article Flat Earth but soon found that User:BullRangifer is applying it broadly to a large number of solid, historically based, articles, among them Astrology, Parapsychology, and many others.

The focus of Misplaced Pages's concern with pseudoscience is with the advocacy of marginal (often original) scientific theories. On the other hand, objective discussions of pseudoscientific beliefs have had a long tradition of being allowed in Misplaced Pages, ever since Jimmy Wales's comment, which is still quoted in Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, that: "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Misplaced Pages regardless of whether it is true or not and regardless of whether you can prove it or not, except perhaps in some ancillary article. Misplaced Pages is not the place for original research" (my emphasis).

Such ancillary articles have a legitimate place in Misplaced Pages and should not be arbitrarily labeled as being under discretionary sanctions, as the template does. This is especially the case since discretionary sanctions are only to be exercised under limited circumstances. In particular, the ArbCom Procedures for discretionary sanctions specify that:

4. Warnings should be clear and unambiguous, link to the decision authorising the sanctions, identify misconduct and advise how the editor may mend their ways;

5. Notices of imposed sanctions should specify the misconduct for which they have been imposed as well as the appeal process;

I recommend that either this template be disapproved or that the ArbCom provide appropriate guidelines as to when and where it should be used. In particular, it seems to have no place in objective, historical discussions of pseudoscientific practices. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 03:18, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Reply to Brangifer: The template as it stands is seriously misleading. It says "This article is subject to discretionary sanctions." That can be read either to mean that the article has already been placed under discretionary sanctions or that it may be placed under discretionary sanctions in the future. In particular, I note that according to ArbCom procedures quoted above, warnings concerning sanctions must "identify misconduct and advise how the editor may mend their ways".

This template has been preemptively inserted in the talk pages of a wide range of articles, apparently without reading them or their talk pages but solely on the basis of the categories in which these articles have been placed. In these cases no misconduct has been identified, but the warning reflects the editor's concern lest "otherwise peaceful articles suddenly become hotbeds of disruption because of fringe POV pushers who ... shift the focus of an otherwise neutral presentation so it favors a PSI POV." Placing such a sanctions warning on otherwise solid historical article is a glaring example of instruction creep, and seems to be in itself disruptive of otherwise peaceful articles. It seems more likely to stir up problems than to quell them.

I consider that such sanctions warnings should only be posted on talk pages of articles that have, in fact, demonstrated problems in advancing a pseudoscientific point of view and that the issuance of such sanctions warnings should be restricted to the action of an "uninvolved administrator", as per ArbCom policy. (I note here that Brangifer is neither an admin nor is he uninvolved in the disputes concerning pseudoscience but appears to be an advocate for a particular view of science.) Furthermore, the template, if it is to continue, should make it clear that objective, historical discussions of pseudoscientific theories are welcome in Misplaced Pages rather than vaguely threatening editors with sanctions. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 12:42, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Brangifer suggests that my dispute is with ArbCom for introducing the concept of sanctions. Not at all. My dispute is with Brangifer for creating and using a template in such a fashion as to widely extend the sanctions for advocacy of pseudoscience to articles that merely describe it. He's right, however, that this is an issue for ArbCom to decide rather than one for us to debate. I've posted my position; he and others have posted theirs here and at Talk:Flat_Earth. I look forward to a decision from ArbCom on this template, its form, and its use. Thanks --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 16:08, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

A note by Roger Davies, elsewhere on this page, has drawn my attention to the ongoing discussion of revising the discretionary sanctions procedure. In particular it proposes changes regarding alerting editors and placing edit notices on controversial articles. Concerning notices on articles, the current draft stipulates that "Enforcing administrators are required to place an edit notice on any page which they have placed restrictions.… All page restrictions must be logged."

Since those changes will influence the use of this template, it seems wise to suspend its use (and perhaps this discussion) until ArbCom resolves that more general question. SteveMcCluskey (talk) 14:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

A note on the discretionary sanctions template by Bishonen

There has been considerable discussion about the phrase "if you continue to misconduct yourself" in the discretionary sanctions template. People have understandably resented having that phrase applied to them, and for me it's always been a reason why I feel unable to use the template to simply warn somebody that there are discretionary sanctions for an article they've edited. Surely a mere warning doesn't have to be so accusatory? I was quite surprised to see the words "continue to" still in there after all the discontent voiced, and even in the putatively milder (?) version quoted above. FGS get rid of those two words. It would improve the template 100%, and make it possible to post it even on people we don't particularly want to scold and antagonize. Even better if we also get rid of the strangely stilted and heavy-Victorian-parent-sounding locution "misconduct yourself". How about "If you edit inappropriately on pages relating to this topic, you may be placed under sanctions, which can include blocks" etc etc  ? Bishonen | talk 20:57, 3 September 2013 (UTC).

Statement by {other user}

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Principles are used to elucidate the thinking that underlies the findings of fact and remedies in arbitration final decisions. For example, if we topic ban somebody for repeatedly pushing a nationalist point of view, it would be helpful to state clearly that NPOV is a core principle of Misplaced Pages and POV-pushing is unacceptable. Principles frame the substantive components of our decision, and may clarify how policy should be interpreted in certain novel situations, but (as IRWolfie states) they are emphatically not enforceable rulings.

  Nevertheless, it is clear to me that the principles in our decisions can be helpful reminders of the policies that are particularly relevant to certain topic areas, even when the remedies and findings of fact have long since become irrelevant. I therefore have no objection to them being cited in a general reminder notice such as the one referred to in this clarification request. The reminder notice seems acceptable to me, and does not seem like it implies this committee has "ruled on content" in the area of pseudoscience. At most, the notice could be qualified by changing the first sentence so it reads "issued several rulings (which may be helpful to editors of this article)" – thus making clear that the principles are not enforceable pieces of quasi-policy. AGK 13:07, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

• The header seems a bit outdated and isn't really designed how we normally do things anymore. But while I wouldn't mind some good rigorous cleanup, I also agree with BullRangifer and AGK above. NW (Talk) 01:22, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
• The principles in an arbitration decision reflects the committee's interpretation of the relevant policies and guidelines at the time the case was decided; they are neither policy by themselves nor binding. Principles adopted in very old cases, in particular, may well be overtaken by subsequent changes in the relevant policy or guideline. That said, however, these principles may be of persuasive value, and if the community finds the formulation in a principle useful, they are free to adopt it, but that would be the community's choice, and not the committee's. T. Canens (talk) 05:27, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
• Perhaps the header should be tweaked to "Arbitration Committee decisions on Pseudoscience", and abandon the "ruling" altogether? That makes it clearer that it's advisory. No view on whether it is desirable to add this template to articles.  Roger Davies 06:39, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
• While I mostly agree with my colleagues, the fact of the matter is that banners that densely written (even with the blue links in them) are a classic "tl;dr". The contents are fine, but I'm not persuaded that there will be any better comprehension than if the banner was reduced to fewer than 6 lines. Risker (talk) 01:56, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

• Pseudoscience articles under contentious topics procedure