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This does not establish notability independent of Babylon 5 through the inclusion of real world information from reliable, third party sources. Most of the information is made up of overly in-depth plot details better suited to Wikia. There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, so extended coverage is unnecessary. TTN (talk) 10:27, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000 11:33, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000 11:33, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science fiction-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:09, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
- Delete, or as a last resort, merge to List of Babylon 5 starships along with all those other entries in the Babylon 5 template. I'm going to use the f-word here, so close your eyes if you're easily offended: fancruft. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:13, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- We did make a List of locations in Babylon 5 a few years back. Doing the same thing to the majority of the ship articles is something I proposed as far back as 2009. Anyone want to help merge 'em? Jclemens (talk) 22:02, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- Keep I added two independent reliable sources (printed works in my possession that I've used to source B5 fictional topics before) that establish that this class of ship, as a fictional element, was commented upon by real world sources. More can be added as needed, but I'm putting the vote in now that I've demonstrated that adequate sources exist and can be added as needed. Jclemens (talk) 04:41, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- Do they actually discuss anything pertaining to the real world, or is it just a collection of fictional details in a detailed format? If they can satisfy the real world information requirement, I can at least withdraw this for now so that a proper merge can be discussed on how to best handle the details without going overboard with plot like in these articles. TTN (talk) 10:36, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- They discuss the fictional elements in the context of the larger story, but as you can tell from the book titles, the books are focused on Babylon 5 itself. These and other books discuss the real-world inspiration for B5, and reaction to it, but are substantially descriptive, with analysis a smaller portion of their content. I don't know if that satisfies your definition of real world impact or not, but it certainly does mine. Jclemens (talk) 21:56, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- If they cannot produce a real world perspective on the topic, it becomes impossible to to meet either WP:WAF or WP:NOTPLOT. If the resources do not give details on the respective fictional elements that can meet those, they cannot be said to actually cover them. Such novels are only covering the series itself, of which the plot elements are only a part, and cannot be said to establish notability for them, else every single element from every single fictional series with a guidebook is notable. If they can provide a general discussion of the overall design process of creating all the ships, there could be potential in a list article. If they don't give a ship-by-ship account, there is no way separate articles can be kept according to WAF and NOTPLOT barring one or two randomly having actual sources available. TTN (talk) 22:21, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- I didn't actually expect that meeting the GNG--non-trivial coverage in multiple independent, reliable sources--would be enough to persuade you to withdraw this. Suffice it to say that I find your additional, non-policy-based requirements uncompelling. Jclemens (talk) 05:30, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- Last time I checked, NOT is a policy, and it specifically says to follow WAF for fiction-related articles. If the articles can only be summaries, they cannot exist independently of the main work. Maybe you feel every last fictional element of every series deserves coverage, but the policy-based argument is that they cannot exist without real world coverage, not simply trivial mentions in a few books that are reliable sources in other aspects. In the same sense, would you say a few news stories about a notable football player buying his mother a house makes it reasonable to create an article on the otherwise unnoteworthy mother? The story is technically covering the mother even though she only warrants coverage in the player's biography. TTN (talk) 15:14, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- I didn't actually expect that meeting the GNG--non-trivial coverage in multiple independent, reliable sources--would be enough to persuade you to withdraw this. Suffice it to say that I find your additional, non-policy-based requirements uncompelling. Jclemens (talk) 05:30, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- If they cannot produce a real world perspective on the topic, it becomes impossible to to meet either WP:WAF or WP:NOTPLOT. If the resources do not give details on the respective fictional elements that can meet those, they cannot be said to actually cover them. Such novels are only covering the series itself, of which the plot elements are only a part, and cannot be said to establish notability for them, else every single element from every single fictional series with a guidebook is notable. If they can provide a general discussion of the overall design process of creating all the ships, there could be potential in a list article. If they don't give a ship-by-ship account, there is no way separate articles can be kept according to WAF and NOTPLOT barring one or two randomly having actual sources available. TTN (talk) 22:21, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- They discuss the fictional elements in the context of the larger story, but as you can tell from the book titles, the books are focused on Babylon 5 itself. These and other books discuss the real-world inspiration for B5, and reaction to it, but are substantially descriptive, with analysis a smaller portion of their content. I don't know if that satisfies your definition of real world impact or not, but it certainly does mine. Jclemens (talk) 21:56, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- Do they actually discuss anything pertaining to the real world, or is it just a collection of fictional details in a detailed format? If they can satisfy the real world information requirement, I can at least withdraw this for now so that a proper merge can be discussed on how to best handle the details without going overboard with plot like in these articles. TTN (talk) 10:36, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- Keep The interpretation of NOT with respect to fixction is much disputed, to the extent that there has never been able to get any single interpretation of it adopted, as for any position, there are always substantial objections. I interpret it, and I think the intended meaning, is that our coverage of any work of fiction should not be limited only to plot. Obviously, for major fiction where we need to split articles to deal with the amount of material, some of these will necessarily deal mainly or wholly with their role in the plot, as other of the detailed articles will deal with other aspects. It's the coverage as a whole that counts. DGG ( talk ) 01:13, 19 September 2013 (UTC)