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Category:Shops in England

Ran into Category:Shops in England and some related ones. Shop is ambiguous, is there some specific type of shop for these? If not the category probably should be deleted as grouping by like named. Vegaswikian (talk)

Proposed deletion of Richmond Road ground

The article Richmond Road ground has been proposed for deletion. The proposed deletion notice added to the article should explain why.

While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.

ArbCom: wiki-activism

BHG,

Not here to argue with you, more to see your perspective on your comment re: my conduct during the Manning discussion, specifically about "labelling as 'activists' those who opposed" the title Bradley Manning.

I don't believe I did so. For example, in this thread, I proposed a general sanction against accusation of "transphobia". On my talk, an IP suggested an alternative that would be a general sanction against both accusations of "transphobia" and "wiki-activism". I supported that and suggested the IP propose it In this thread, the IP propses a general sanction against accusation of "wiki-activism" and I support it.

--RA (✍) 09:33, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

RA, I'm sorry, but my reply has to be harsh.

This isn't complicated. Suppose editor X posts something blatantly anti-semitic, and editor Y denounces the anti-semitism. By your logic, editor Y would face sanctions, and the anti-semite would go unpunished. In my experience, using a label like that is rarely an effective way of countering prejudice of any sort, whether racism, homophobia. religious bigotry or whatever. However, the ineffectiveness of the term is no grounds for censuring those who speak up against prejudice, particularly those who did so while so much of the rest of the community (including admins) stoked the transphobic flames.

Secondly, the charge of wiki-activism has repeatedly been laid against editors who actually knew something about trans issues, and tried to inform the debate. As Sue Gardner pointed out, their expertise should have been welcomed; but instead you are one of those who wanted sanctions on them, while those posting blatant crude prejudice were free to proceed without restriction. The fact that you belatedly object to the label should not obscure your role in assisting those who used the label to suppress informed commentators.

I'm shocked and appalled by this. There was plenty of scope for debate on how to handle the article, but a lot of editors were assisted by admins like you in turning our editorial discussions into a public lynching of a trans woman, while you led the charge in victimising those who complained. I have several trans friends, and this all horribly similar to the sort of systematic bullying which use to occur before they got legal protection against discrimination and harassment. They were systematically abused, and then victimised if they complained.

I have admired a lot of your work before, and am sad to see your role in this. However, I believe that someone pushing the line you have taken in the procedural rows around this debate is unfit to be an admin. If and when arbcom takes the case, I will be collecting the relevant evidence, and hope that you will be de-sysopped ASAP. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:03, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I respect your opinion.

"Suppose editor X posts something blatantly anti-semitic, and editor Y denounces the anti-semitism. By your logic, editor Y would face sanctions, and the anti-semite would go unpunished." I never said that. I wouldn't suggest such a thing. But the accusations of transphobia weren't helping. I think CombatWombat42 put it well when he/she wrote, "'Transphobia' is this page's Godwins law."

"...instead you are one of those who wanted sanctions on them, while those posting blatant crude prejudice were free to proceed without restriction." I did want to see the mutual name-calling calm down and so I proposed one general sanction and supported another. Individual sanctions were proposed against Josh Gorand, including supposedly for comments he made to me. I didn't see any point in escalating things by denying voices and I didn't see his comments as being any worse than anyone else's. Baseball Bug's natterings were hugely unhelpful. However, I similarly opposed a ban but, in his case, I said he should cool his jets. As discussion continued, internally I moved to believing the discussion would have been better of without him but the time had passed.

"There was plenty of scope for debate on how to handle the article, but a lot of editors were assisted by admins like you in turning our editorial discussions into a public lynching of a trans woman..." Apart from where you say "like you" :-), that his is exactly my position. Instead of a reasoned debate (informed by those with personal experience of trans issues), the issue was forced to be discussed in the terms it was. I resented the way the community was herded into that position. It made a pressure cooker of something that didn't need to be a big deal. And I did not lynch Manning in any sense. I pointed to the circus that was made of the RM as an abuse of her dignity. --RA (✍) 14:05, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

RA, thanks for the reply. I AGF that you did want to calm things down. My problem is with how you tried to calm things down. What you and others did was to seek sanction on those challenging the abuse, rather than on those spouting it. That's why it turned into a lynching.

That was a fundamental misjudgement. You were not alone in taking that view, but you were one of the most prominent admins to to do so.

This isn't complicated. If the baying mob had been abusing WP's processes to hurl abuse about black people or Jewish people, they would have faced instant sanctions, and their comments would have been removed. In the case of the multiple comments which made the off-topic and potentially libellous suggestion that Manning's claim of trans identity during her trial was false, the comments should have been oversighted after deletion. But because the vitriol was being directed at was trans people, the mob directed its energies on those who shouted "stop", and sought to sanction them for not doing so politely. No admin should have collaborated with that inversion of duty.

The community was not "herded" into that position. It walked itself into that position in an orgy of prejudice stoked by the controversy over the world's highest-profile trial of the year, and many of those who had a responsibility to restrain the abuse chose instead to try to gag the protesters. If we are going to avoid this sort of farrago in the future, I think it's important that Arbcom now lays down a marker that admins who invert their role like that will face sanctions. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:36, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I suppose the question then falls, why did you not do anything? You could have gone in with your truncheon swinging. I don't think that would have helped.

For my part, I wasn't acting in an administrative role. How could I? I was involved. I also had my eye on the longer term issues the incident raised. As for the conduct of admins, I may be naive, but if the case is taken up, I'll present a case that made my jaw drop. So, hold onto your socks and don't judge me just yet. Best, --RA (✍) 18:17, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I was WP:INVOLVED, so it would have been wrong of me to take admin action. If ypou were involved too, then you couldn't use your tools either. But that's not my criticism of you; I never thought that you used the tools.

I look fwd to seeing your evidence.

Best wishes, --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:23, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes/Evidence‎

In case you weren't aware, the evidence phase was supposed to close on July 31st, though there were some additions for a few days. The proposed decision is now moving to a close, with the talk page there still active. Johnbod (talk) 15:11, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Ah, silly me. Thanks for the headsup. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:21, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence

You kindly supplied evidence on the Infobox case. "Evidence" is closed for a long time, the discussion is now on the Proposed decision talk. Please move it there. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:32, 2 September 2013 (UTC) ps: I see you got it, never mind, nice to meet you and your thoughts, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:33, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Beau Monde spice

I've never edited a wiki page before so I have chosen to contact you instead. Searching for "Beau Monde" redirects to:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/Beau_Monde

which is about London high society.

However, there is a spice called "Beau Monde" thus I think there should be a disambiguation page for the phrase "Beau Monde".

I tried to create an account but my usual internet handle, "SezMe", isn't accepted by Wiki. If you want to reply, please do so to SezMe@cox.net

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.185.176.199 (talk) 23:19, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Best to create an account under a different name.

If you want to create an article on the spice, you can create it at Beau Monde (spice). --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:26, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Precious

categories
Thank you, tireless girl who doesn't want to tempt us to stereotype, for your helpful bot, for quality work on categories, such as those for elections and the monuments of the split List of National Monuments of Ireland, and for thinking in the category "constructive suggestions", - repeating: you are an awesome Wikipedian (24 August 2009)!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:30, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for those kind words, Gerda.

I have sympathy with both sides of the infobox dispute, and disagreement with both sides. I don't think that this can be resolved simply by sanctioning individual editors, and hope that some attention is paid to the possibility of a structural solution. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:57, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Amen. One problem is that both sides don't even mean the same thing when they use the term. I put a quote from the opening of the Library of Birmingham on my talk, repeated for you (but more beautiful in context): Let us not forget that even one book, one pen, one teacher can change the world, added by the user whose banning was supposed to solve the problem ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:18, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Category:Actors from Palo Alto, California

I have now made a counter proposal to upmerge Category:Actors from Palo Alto, California. I am becoming less and less convinced we need to keep there city categories at all.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:31, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Strong support in principle. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:31, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Charlie Elphicke

Hi BHG. AS the font of most knowledge to do with UK elections, I wonder if you are aware of any source which might provide a list of election results by major party swing? Charlie Elphicke had a dubious uncited claim -which I have removed -that he had one of the highest swings in the country. I know that candidates rate their achievements by the swing and would have liked to have replaced the statement with something numeric but couldn't find it. The University of Keele used to provide a spreadsheet with really useful facts but that has disappeared. Any suggestions? Thanks in anticipation! JRPG (talk) 19:45, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Howdy JPRG!

I have a few suggestions. First off, for overview stats on UK parliamentary elections there is no substitute for Rallings & Thrasher's British Electoral Facts. They crunch all sorts of data, and there is probably something in there to answer your question ... but sadly my own copy is in my other living quarters, and I won't have access to it for a few months. Your local library may have it, or maybe you could treat yourself :)

The University of Keele data was published by Richard Kimber, who has moved his site to http://www.politicsresources.net

Burrow around that, and you may find something which would help. RK has a wonderfully thorough set of individual seats results, but I don't see any mention of swing in his 2010 statistical breakdown. However, I may be looking in the wrong place.

Otherwise I thought that The Guardian website might have something, and I found this: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/interactive/2010/may/06/uk-election-results-map

There is also a downloadable spreadsheet linked on that page, and it may answer your question. Hope this helps! --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:49, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi BFG. I had seen the Guardian result map but it lacked sufficient colour resolution and also it is difficult to factor in some of the considerable constituency changes. In short, on your advice I have decided to treat myself! Regards JRPG (talk) 17:06, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

It wasn't the map I was thinking of, just the spreadsheet. But maybe it doesn't have any more detail than the map.

Anyway, good luck with the book. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:27, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi BHG. The Guardian spreadsheet didn't appear to have swings. Book arrived ..but only covers up to 2005 -though it will still be useful. Harvard has a link to what looks like a Keele University style spreadsheet with swings which looks like it should do the job. Regards JRPG (talk) 13:01, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hear that the book didn't help. I thought it had been updated, and feel bad that I pointed towards parting with your cash :(

Anyway, the Harvard link looks good. Well done for persevering! --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:18, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi BHG. At £3, the cost from Amazon was less than going to the bookshop & I can use it for much older politicians so no big deal. :) JRPG (talk) 15:17, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

What is a backbox and what can be done about them?

I saw your comment at the CFD for 'People from Baldwin, Pennsylvania. When looking to fill that category, I found tons of what links here too. What's causing it and is there a solution?...William 19:43, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant navboxes. Have replied in more detail at CFD. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:25, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Category:P4 laboratory

BHG, you're so much better at this than I am, I thought I'd ask for your advice. I wanted to nominate this cat for deletion based on WP:DEFINING. The way I came to know about this cat is its creator is probably a sock. That aside, what do you think of the cat? Thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:17, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Bb

I presume that it refers to Biosafety level 4 (aka P4). I knew nowt about this topic until your message, but I so far it appears to me to be a WP:DEFINING characteristic. This is the highest level of biosecurity, so I presume that it is rare and significant.

So if it went to CFD, I think I'd initially argue to keep it ... but I'd be very interested to see comments from other editors who know more about it than I do, and am open to changing my mind.

Hope this helps :) --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:24, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

The name isn't very obvious. Should it perhaps be renamed to "Biosafety level 4 laboratory" or even "BSL-4 laboratory"? Even if the name is left unchanged, shouldn't there be something in the body of the cat that links to what it is?--Bbb23 (talk) 14:51, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

You're right, the current name is clear as mud. It fails WP:JARGON.

A rename to Category:Biosafety level 4 laboratories would be a good idea, and it certainly needs an explanation. I'll ad one now. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:22, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't this is as a candidate for a speedy rename, so that means I'd have to CfD it and suggest that it be renamed; is that right? A lot of trouble to go to for a category created by a probable sock. :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 15:56, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

No, it doesn't meet any of the speedy criteria, so it needs a full CFD. I will nominate it now; quick and easy with WP:TWINKLE.

I suppose it's a bit of trouble, but OTOH it may be a good category. Even socks sometimes do useful things :) --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:11, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Now at CFD: Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 September 8#Category:P4_laboratory. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:37, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks again for your help.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:48, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome :) --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:49, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence phase open - Manning naming dispute

Dear BrownHairedGirl.

This is just a quick courtesy notice. You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning naming dispute. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning naming dispute/Evidence. Please add your evidence by September 19, 2013, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning naming dispute/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, Seddon 23:24, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Beekeepers

I reduced the category to 72 articles, and split it all by nationality. I still think a-someone else should go through and weigh in on things like if Sir Edmund Hillary is really notable enough as a beekeeper to keep in the category, and 2-with the smaller size if the sub-classification still makes sense.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:24, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Diffusing Category:English actors

I assume you're probably making these changes manually and were thrown by the unusual forename, but in case you're working from a flawed master list, this is just a heads up that you filed the actress Doon Mackichan as a man, earlier. --McGeddon (talk) 14:58, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for spotting and fixing that.

I'm just doing a first pass by forename, and then checking the ambiguous ones like Alex & Sam, but I tend to drop my guard a bit on the rest :(

I should have checked that one manually, and am glad you caught it. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:26, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Speedy delete

Thanks for acting on the speedy delete for the category for male pornographic actors, BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) . One minute, I'm categorizing Bangladeshi male actors and the next moment, I've created an duplicate category for porn actors. <facepalm>

But during the course of a busy day with categories, I made this mistake two more times. But when I looked into CSD, an empty category has to stand for 4 days before one can tag it for a speedy delete. Is this not the case? Since they are empty categories, it seems preferable to tag them rather than post them to CfD for discussion since I am 100% sure the consensus will be Delete.

Thanks for any guidance you can provide! Liz 22:12, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi @Liz:

Have you read WP:CSD? There are lots of different grounds for speedy deletion.

Empty categories can be deleted under WP:CSD#C1, with 4 days notice. That applies regardless of who created them, and how old they are.

However, any page can be deleted by its creator under certain conditions, per WP:CSD#G7. If you make a mistake, then a prompt G7 is your solution.

Hope this helps! --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:19, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

This is very helpful, thank you! I was thinking of WP:CSD#C1 and so was waiting a few more days before tagging them but since I created them (for shame!), WP:CSD#G7 would indeed apply. Luckily, I just found that I can search through my contributions just for Categories and see the new ones (marked by a convenient "N"). I'll see to this tomorrow...it'll be nice to cross them off my list.

Have a great weekend! Liz 03:10, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Comment

Hello I am Fredric Abbott's widow and earlier today I returned my previous edits to his page - I see they were removed and your name is given as the editor. I am 77 yoa and not au fait with Misplaced Pages except to repeat my corrections over the last 18 months. I'm not sure how you locate your information or the grounds on which you delete information given to you. Perhaps you could advise and allow me to 124.183.250.134 (talk) 02:35, 14 September 2013 (UTC)verify my bona fides. Joanne Abbott

Hi Joanne

Thanks for your message. It is best to discuss an article on the talk page of that article, so I have copied your message to Talk:Frederic Abbott#Comment_from_Joanne_Abbott, and I have replied there. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:32, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Come Now Sleep

I recreated the article per another users request because it is notable with my work.HotHat (talk) 14:26, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

@HotHat:, I see that Come Now Sleep has lots of refs, but where is the substantial coverage in reliable sources? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:34, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Per WP:BAND and per NSONG, I think that I can safely say by the double charting and the four reviews by the likes of AbsolutePunk, CCM Magazine, Cross Rhythms and Jesus Freak Hideout that the album is notable for inclusion because that alone provides "Significant coverage" by GNG standards. At the same time, just the charting alone would make it notable, even without the reviews, but we have those as well. See, Metacritic has set four reviews as standard for giving a Metascore, so four is sufficient coverage by me as well.HotHat (talk) 18:34, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

CfD Notifications

Hello, BrownHairedGirl,
I was double-checking categories nominated for deletion, renames and mergers and finding in only a few cases were the category creators being notified of the discussion at CfD. Is this an optional step? I found this step being skipped both by newbies and regulars. It's always done at AfD so I'm surprised not to see it a mandatory part of the process at CfD. Thanks. Liz 18:53, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

For single nominations, I use WP:TWINKLE, which notifies automatically. For groups noms done manually, I don't usually bother. Too much work for too little response.

There have been many proposals at WT:CFD to make such notifications compulsory, but there has never been a consensus in favour of the idea. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:00, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, there is a recent example of a lot of categories involving awards and honors being nominated for deletion and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Orders, Decorations, and Medals group members being unaware of this because CfD discussions happen over a matter of days and not every category page is visited during the limited time period where a user might see a deletion notice. Although group members might have contested the deletions they also have a much better understanding of which orders might be important enough to retain while others are less consequential and could be dispensed with.

I think since there are some Editors who are very thorough about CfD proposals and always post notices on creators Talk Pages and WikiProject Talk Pages, it makes the fact that other Editors skip this step make less sense. It takes less time to look at a category's Edit History, click on the Creator's name, see if the user is active (or a bot) and post a notice than it does to actually write up the proposal at CfD.

I fully understand that my opinion might be in the minority here but I'd still like to propose that it be a mandatory (or, at least, expected) step. Would the correct way to post a RfC at the CfD Talk Page?

Thanks, BrownHairedGirl (talk) Liz 19:32, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Recording Industry Association of New Zealand

Hello,

You are receiving this message based on your participation in this discussion at Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion. The discussion was procedurally closed by me and reopened here. I invite you to participate in the new discussion.

Thank you, -- Black Falcon 19:39, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

thanks for the pointer. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:51, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Hostile activity on a page that I contribute to

Hi,

First of all, I hope you received a "Thanks" notification after you kindly improved the Camille and Kennerly Kitt page. I am certainly very grateful. I have noticed with serious concern on that page that an effort is being made by people who truly have no real history of contributions to try to change the style of the references section. Robcamstone and I are main contributors and we want to preserve the format that has been employed for years. I beg you for help because Duffbeerforme (who is trying to impose his way), was very militant about trying to have the page deleted at one point, and we had very intense debates during that week, and in the end he lost because the page was kept, obviously; in a few hours I will further increase its notability significantly, by the way. Anyway, I have strong reasons to believe that Duffbeerforme and the anonymous user who first changed the style of the references section are the same person, and Duffbeerforme was very hostile by completely ignoring my request to discuss any changes on the talk page first to try to reach consensus. Please read the recent page history and the talk page as well. Any help that you could give us would be greatly appreciated. Keep in mind that Duffbeerforme spent lots of time and energy trying to destroy that page, so it's tough to assume good faith on his part. Many thanks in advance, and please reply on my personal talk page. Dontreader (talk) 13:01, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your message, @Dontreader:. I did indeed receive the thanks notice, which was kind of you.

My edit was just a quick pas in a much larger recategorisation exercise, and I had no intention of becoming further involved in maintaining or developing the article.

As to your concerns about references, I have commented in detail length at Talk:Camille and Kennerly Kitt#Ref:_the_reference_section_of_the_article.

I don't see any useful purpose in considering what you say about other editors, and would remind all of you to assume good faith in other contributors. I see that almost all of your contributions to Misplaced Pages relate to this one article (which could lead you you being seen as a single purpose account), and I wonder whether perhaps you feel some sense of WP:OWNership about it?

I think you would find it helpful to contribute more to other topics, and gain wider experience of how Misplaced Pages works, rather than pursuing an inadequate style of referencing because it is "easier for me to deal with".

Hope this helps. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:44, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

I am very grateful for your time and help, especially the comment that you wrote on the discussion page. It's true that most of my contributions are to that article (I happen to be a very big fan of those artists); however, whenever I see mistakes on other pages, I correct them. Early on I used to edit more, but my lifestyle has changed; nevertheless, I don't think a sense of ownership applies to me since I let Robcamstone do whatever he pleases, although he is courteous and tries to reach consensus with others. The problem with that other user is that he has no manners, having ignored our requests to try to reach consensus on the talk page before making radical decisions. That's not polite, and although I may be relatively inexperienced, that's not the proper behavior of a Wikipedian. You were kind enough to explain in detail why my method of referencing was wrong (it will take time for me to make those adjustments), and if that guy had also politely stated the reasons for wanting to change the format, that's fine, but he did not do that; he reverted what had been done without having the courtesy to say a word to the main contributors. I would never do such a thing. The fact that he aggressively tried to destroy that very same page, to then come back in a hostile manner to edit it many months later does not help either. Anyway, your prompt response, advice and generosity are very much appreciated. I will make a transition to the new format. Have a very nice day. Dontreader (talk) 16:32, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

@Dontreader:, I'm glad that helped. Good luck with improving the article.

But, please please please please calm down. You are taking this way too personally, and showing extreme signs of of WP:OWNership. I see a lot of good intent in you, but really do need a bit of distance on this.

Nominating an article for deletion is not an attack on anyone; not on the article's subject, or on the editors who created it. It's starting a discussion about a concern that the topic doesn't meet Misplaced Pages's standards for inclusion, and it's a piece of editorial scrutiny which you should have welcomed. Looking at an AFD nomination as "aggressively tried to destroy that very same page" is a WP:BATTLEGROUND mindset which rarely ends well, and your angry comments at AFD about the admin Tokyogirl79 were completely out of line. All she did was some technical steps to facilitate a discussion.

You then say that this editor "came back in a hostile manner to edit it". I see no hostility at all in improving references; on the contrary, it was a good thing to do, and there is nothing impolite about being WP:BOLD and doing it. Every time you edit a page, there is a warning that your contributions may be "edited, used, and redistributed—by anyone"; don't be surprised that this happened. You wanted the other editor to respect some agreement you had made with someone else, but please see WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. There are Misplaced Pages-wide standards for referencing, and you should not have tried to set them aside, nor demanded that others consult with you before working in accordance with those norms. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:46, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter. In theory, I agree with what you have said, but the person who proposed the deletion of that article decided to hide when I pointed out the flaws in his arguments; had he been sincere about improving the article, he would have replied to my observations, instead of looking like someone else's pawn. The Harp Twins have many thousands of fans but many mentally-ill haters as well. He could have put a sign on the article saying that it needed improvements, and he could have contacted us to express his specific concerns, instead of suddenly proposing it for deletion without any warnings, plus he was contributing to an article that had no place whatsoever on Misplaced Pages because it had virtually zero reliable sources, so that's highly hypocritical. My code of conduct is just very different. Anyway, from what I have learned, Tokyo Girl is a very competent administrator but she made a big mistake during that process, which caused Robcamstone to even call for her administrator status to be removed. It was a misunderstanding, but anyway, I did effusively apologize to her whereas Rob never did. And if the referencing is poor, there are ways to let me know, instead of being rude and completely ignoring our request that the matter be discussed on the talk page. Maybe you can see why I saw malice in the whole thing, but then again, maybe it's standard Misplaced Pages behavior, which would be highly disappointing to me. Anyway, you've been very good to me and I appreciate that very much. By the way, I just added a paragraph that should further enhance the notability of the artists considerably. I'll work on the references, but if that has to be done manually, without a bot or something, it will take practically forever. If you know a trick for fixing that mess, please let me know. Thanks again so much for your kind consideration. Dontreader (talk) 19:08, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Ok Dontreader, one last reply.

I just checked the history of the PROD and the AFD. Here's what happened.

1. Knowtheory WP:PRODded the article on grounds on non-notability. That's a perfectly legitimate action.
2. Robcamstone contested the PROD, by removing the PROD tag. Again, a legitimate step.
3. Robcamstone quite properly posted an explanation of why they had contested the PROD.
4. Knowtheory opened an AFD discussion on the article. Again, that's standard procedure. If a PROD is contested, and the PRODder still advocates deletion, then there is a discussion at AFD.
   However, Knowtheory make some technical errors in the nomination, so ...
5. Tokyogirl79 fixed the formatting of the AFD page
6. Tokyogirl79 tagged the article

That is all absolutely by-the-book. If a deletion rationale doesn't stack up, it will be contested in the discussion, and a WP:CONSENSUS reached. If an editor makes a technical error, another editor may be kind enough to fix it, as Tokyogirl79 did. (Any editor could have fixed it; no admin powers were involved).

I have over 330,000 edits to Misplaced Pages, and have been an admin for 7 years. Having reviewed this, I am quite satisfied that Tokyogirl79 acted entirely properly. You may wish that Misplaced Pages's procedures were different, and you are welcome to start a discussion on how to change them, but please don't attack others for correctly using them as they are.

Six months on, the fact that you still falsely claim she "made a big mistake" doesn't bode well, nor does your comment about "mentally-ill haters".

You have big WP:OWNership issues here, and far too much of a WP:BATTLEGROUND approach. I really hope you can set those aside, because if your editing comes under scrutiny they will count heavily against you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

Hi again, BrownHairedGirl. Many thanks for taking the time to examine the PROD and the AfD. Obviously you have vast experience here on Misplaced Pages, so if you say Tokyogirl did not make a mistake, then I believe you. Even if she had (which is not the case, now that you have explained it), my behavior was inappropriate, so, as I said, I very sincerely apologized to her. I'm sorry for some of the language that I used, such as "mentally-ill haters". I was about to go to bed when this whole thing happened last night, and I ended up spending 9 hours working on organizing links, composing, and editing the page, so I was totally sleep-deprived and in a bad mood, knowing that I would get nothing done today, which has been the case. I'l do my best to improve my behavior. Thanks again for all your time, advice and kindness. Dontreader (talk) 08:46, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome. Good luck. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:23, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

What am I supposed to do with this?

Just when I thought this matter with Duffbeerforme was over, and I could spend time on other things, I now see that he has edited the discography section of the Camille and Kennerly Kitt page. He claims that "Misplaced Pages is not a directory of download links", but he has wiped out the only reliable sources that support the discography section. Please, as an administrator, what do you suggest? Thanks in advance.Dontreader (talk) 09:33, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure, but there is a problem here.

Itunes as a source for a discography is a WP:PRIMARYSOURCE, and Misplaced Pages should be based on secondary sources. Per WP:ELNO#5, editors should generally avoid linking to "individual web pages that primarily exist to sell products or services", and that is clearly the case with Itunes.

If there isn't an independent reliable source for their discography, I do wonder whether it should be included at all. I have never before encountered an article on a popular musician who isn't listed on www.allmusic.com, which is a widely-used reliable source, but the Harp Twins don't show up in a search.

However, as recorded music increasingly becomes a online-only product, this situation must have arisen with many other Misplaced Pages articles. So I suggest asking initially at WP:RSN.

You may also find it useful to ask for help from WikiProject Musicians. Please do take great care to phrase your requests neutrally, and to leave no doubt about your assumption that Duffbeerforme is acting in good faith. That article badly needs more eyes on it, and I hope that those venues may help to bring them in. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:41, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very much once again. I do apologize for abusing your generosity. I will do as you suggested, but it's already after 5 am here, so it can't be now. Keep in mind that the Harp Twins have their music available only in MP3 format, not albums. Do you think I could simply state at the top of the discography section that "Camille and Kennerly have released several of their harp duet arrangements on iTunes, Amazon, Google Play, CD Baby and SoundCloud." without including the links to their personal pages where the music can be bought? That way Wikipedians could verify that such tracks do exist if they perform searches on those sites, but without being able to accuse the editors of trying to use the page to sell their music. I wonder if that sounds like a reasonable compromise, as there are no other sources, other than the ones that were taken down. I personally believe that the discography section is very relevant, or else it might seem that all they do is perform at venues and make videos when they are not acting, as opposed to having musical available for purchase, as all musicians do. I hope my idea is clear enough. Thanks in advance for more of your time. Dontreader (talk) 11:22, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Take your time; WP:NODEADLINE :)

I don't want to suggest too much about what sort of shape a solution might take, because I don't have enough experience of working with that sort of topic. I really think that the article needs input from editors who do have the relevant experience of where consensus lies on how to handle this sort of material in accordance with Misplaced Pages's policies. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:47, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Many thanks! Very well. I will come back later to study the tips you gave me and I hope to find a solution. I must emphasize once again that I'm very grateful for your time, help and generosity. Have a nice day. Dontreader (talk) 12:13, 19 September 2013 (UTC)