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RfC

BAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:57, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Uncited assertions

There are numerous uncited/unsourced assertions throughout this article. Some have been tagged for a long time and should be deleted if no RS can be found to support them. SPECIFICO talk 04:25, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

I counted 3 cite needed tags. One from this month. The cn tags serve to alert editors to go and look, not to delete the material. – S. Rich (talk) 05:12, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

I meant to say, "Some have been tagged for a long time and should be deleted if no RS can be found to support them." Nothing was deleted. Presumably editors have searched in vain for sources in the time the tag has been up. At some point, we pull the plug on long-tagged content.

The "about" page link works for me but I don't see any text there to support "Rothbard was a prominent influence on the Institute's early activities" so I changed it to conform to the source. If there is text to support the reverted version please cite it, otherwise please undo and restore my conforming version. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 13:53, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Of the 3 tags, I modified one to resolve the syntax. The other old one is probably unneeded because the paragraph is a summary which says LvMI likes/doesn't like these ideas, which are numerous. While they are generally described, if there are particular topics that LvMI does not opine on, those subjects can be removed. But a review of the article and LvMI's editorial stance should support removal. For example, if LvMI is critical of communism or other isms, the paragraph/sentence/phrase is proper. WRT Rothbard, I looked at the link and restored your edit. – S. Rich (talk) 15:01, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Appears all are resolved. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 15:14, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Former Mises scholar repudiates Institute as "cult"

RS Gene Callahan of Cardiff University used to be a prominent "scholar" of the Institute. Now he has repudiated it as a cult akin to scientology, which is a very reasonable comparison.

Since Callahan (per his publications, Ph.D., etc) is an RS and knows the Institute intimately from an "insider" perspective, this seems to be a relevant criticism of the Institute. So I added it. What do you all think about adding it to the "criticism" section of this entry? Steeletrap (talk) 02:50, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, I think you saw my response. I reverted the addition. Basically we can't use it because it's WP:SELFPUB and involves ~~a third party~~ third parties. Secondly, the opining of whether a group is a cult is more of a sociologist's or psychologist's job. Without looking at Callahan's CV etc, I'd guess he does not qualify in this regard. So if you've got some other published RS that describes them as members of a cult, please provide that. – S. Rich (talk) 03:03, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

By your definition of third party, you could never use a SELFPUB source to describe anything (a country an institute a university etc). The definition clearly refers to people. Steeletrap (talk) 03:06, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

When the people of the institution are described as being members of a cult, they are the third parties whom the SPS policy is designed to protect. Please revert this addition. – S. Rich (talk) 03:09, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

The Mises Institute is affiliated with hundreds of scholars and thousands of "students." Equating all of them to a "third party" is like equating criticism of the economic methodology of "Marxists" or the historical views of "neo-Confederates" to statements about a third party. Steeletrap (talk) 03:12, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

@Srich: This looks like more whitewashing. English speaking academics really do not need a PhD in social psychology to use the word cult. Any PhD will do, maybe even civilians without a PhD may use the word. Murray Rothbard called fractional reserve banking "fraud" -- do we remove that from his article because he was not the a US Attorney filing an indictment? @Steeletrap: I think this text would be clarified by more, not less detail from the source. Then if other editors are still concerned I suggest proceeding to DR to get uninvolved opinions. SPECIFICO talk 03:58, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Steele, please notice that the policy does not say "third persons". It refers to parties, which includes non-person entities. (In lawsuits, the plaintiffs and defendants, persons and non-persons, are parties. When you buy life insurance and name your favorite charity as the beneficiary, that charity is the "third party beneficiary".) While I appreciate the effort to compromise, the wording does not cut the mustard. Cult is an ad hominem remark about groups, not institutions. The analogy to Marxists et al only goes so far because there is a lot of non-blog RS regarding them and criticisms of them, as a group, does not need blog remarks to reference the description. Please revert the entire section. – S. Rich (talk) 04:29, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Ad hominem remarks are personal attack. Describing an institution (such as the Church of Scientology) as a "cult" is not a personal attack but rather an abstract description of that institution. It is your value judgment that cults are bad; such a value judgment is not entailed by the definition of "cult". People could have neutral or positive feelings towards cults generally or one cult specifically. Steeletrap (talk) 05:23, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

! Yes, by definition ad hominem remarks are personal, and when you repeat what he says about LvMI you cannot escape the personal and personnel aspects of his remarks. If there is non-blog RS out there describing LvMI as a cult, please provide. I wouldn't care if Callahan said LvMI was the greatest thing since sliced bread, he is making a remark about a third party/third parties and such blog remarks are not acceptable. – S. Rich (talk) 05:28, 15 August 2013 (UTC) I'll try it this way: Callahan is saying "They are a cult." With this in mind, I'd hope you'd put aside your personal distain for the Misesians there (however much you agree with Callahan) and focus on the WP:SPS aspects of his remarks. Please find RS from secondary, non-blog sources that say they are a cult. I'd have no objection whatsoever. – S. Rich (talk) 05:40, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

@Srich: SR, ad hominem is the use of a disparaging personal statement about a writer, where such personal disparagement is used instead of (and as if it were) a refutation of the facts or theories stated by the writer. You've misused the term here. This is not an article about a theory, for example Austrian Business Cycle Theory, espoused by vMI Fellows. If, in that article one were to say "Malinvestment is just another example of the cult malarkey swampcrud from those wingnut backscratchers" -- well then: That would be an ad hominem. But this article is describing the Institute itself, its operations and its activities. The opinion of an insider who left the vMI and his reasons for doing so are directly relevant to an understanding of the institution. They are one man's opinion and presented as such, but they are not an oblique or logically illegitimate attack on the research or theories of the vMI Fellows. This is not an ad hominem fallacy. Here's an interesting bit for your review:

. SPECIFICO talk 12:50, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

P.S... RE: Your statement to Steeletrap above, "I'd hope you'd put aside your personal distain for the Misesians there (however much you agree with Callahan)." That is an ad hominem attack and should be stricken. Please consider. SPECIFICO talk 12:50, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

It was an ad hominem attack, since Rich was singling out some (supposedly biased/unobjective) element of my personal character as germane to the issue at hand. Conversely, saying "Scientology is a cult" or "Marxism is a cult" is not a personal attack on Scientologists/Marxists. Again, it's your value judgment and not a fact that cults are bad and that membership in a cult reflects badly on an individual. (For instance, I think the U.S. military is cultish but (criticisms of its diminishing but still striking homophobia and transphobia and sexism aside) certainly have respect for the institution, and acknowledge the necessity of its "cultishness". Indeed, my estimation of an individual is moderately increased if s/he has been a member of this cultish institution.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Steeletrap (talk • contribs) 14:41, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

The issue is not whether LvMI or the people associated with it are cultist, a cult, cult members, or even whether they throw great keggers. The issue is the source. If Callahan had published some non-blog material saying they were a cult, we could use it. But the material is in his personal blog. He is a published expert in the field of economics, so blog comments about economics can be used. But he is talking about his personal experiences with the people at LvMI, not the field of economics. For this reason, and this reason alone, his comments do not belong in WP. – S. Rich (talk) 15:24, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

The policy you mention refers to factual statements, particularly potentially damaging ones (e.g., "x Mises Fellow was having an affair with y mises fellow"!). The point is that factual assertions have to be vetted and peer reviewed. I don't believe it refers to opinions, and it's Callahan's opinion that LvMI is a cult. Steeletrap (talk) 16:42, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

The policy uses the term "claims", which can be pure opinion or factual in nature. It is not restricted to damaging or laudatory claims. The policy does not deal with vetting or peer review. Callahan is making a statement about third parties, it is in his personal blog, it regarding a subject in which he is not an expert, and it does not belong in WP. – S. Rich (talk) 17:55, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

FYI – A RSN on the issue of the callahan blog has been opened at WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Gene-callahan.blogspot.com

14:51, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Deletion of RS based on WP:Blogs

I added a source from Bleeding Heart Libertarians, a website which serves as a forum for academic discourse among libertarians, most of whom are tenured university professors (see: here for a list of contributors). The BHL source from Steve Horwitz criticized the Mises Institute's association with racists and Holocaust Deniers. Another user deleted this source based on WP:Blogs; this is a flagrant misunderstanding of policy, since WP:Blogs only applies to self-published sources (meaning sources published by one person), and the content of BHL is published and reviewed by a dozen or so academics. Steeletrap (talk) 06:21, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Here is the policy verbatim: "...self-published media, such as books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs (as distinguished from newsblogs, above), Internet forum postings, and tweets, are largely not acceptable as sources. " So, even if BHL is composed of academics, they are a group blog. (Also, it may qualify as unacceptable BLOG material under the other criteria.) Accordingly, no matter how distinguished the contributors seem to be, it is "largely not acceptable". Also, where are the academic reviews, let alone academic peer-reviews, of BHL? And since the blog mentions BLPs, the greatest care must be used. The WP:BURDEN is on OP to show why we should include it. I submit that the burden has not been met. – S. Rich (talk) 06:46, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Srich, the Horwitz text presents Horwitz' opinion as Horwitz' opinion. Horwitz amply explains his views in the cited source, which directly and straightforwardly supports the neutral text which you keep removing. Your denial of WP policy with a series of straw man talk page and edit summary links, BLP, RS, BURDEN etc. doesn't invalidate this text. The text is short and simple. Nobody has proposed stating in WP's voice that Mises Institute is a den of evil. Please drop it. SPECIFICO talk 14:03, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

The issue is what kind of WP:RS do we have with BHL, not what it contains. Is it vetted WP:SCHOLARSHIP? Is it a WP:NEWSORG? If it was, then we wouldn't have an issue about reliability. But, as per the guideline I have quoted, it cannot be used if it is a group blog. (Which it is.) Horwitz and the BHLs might have opinions about a lot of subjects, but his relevant field is economics, not the composition or character of organizations or people associated with an organization. Moreover, since this SPS involves third parties we cannot use it. (And this guideline applies whether Horwitz et al are saying positive or negative things.) – S. Rich (talk) 15:36, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

You're throwing up an increasing number of policy mentions which do not support your position. Your policy link increments notwithstanding, you have not provided a policy-based issue which relates to the text which you dispute. A single valid argument is what's required to impeach the text at this point. SPECIFICO talk 16:25, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Is BHL a group blog? – S. Rich (talk) 16:35, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

User:SPECIFICO: You have not answered the question. Without addressing the issues, you cannot say the BLP issue is "debunked". – S. Rich (talk) 23:39, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SPECIFICO (talk • contribs)

User:RL0919 was addressing the question of whether 3RR applied, not whether the blog is a BLP violation. In this case you have taken the BLP one step further -- Ron Paul is the subject of both the original and new blog posts. The question remains: Is Bleeding Hearts Libertarians a group blog? – S. Rich (talk) 00:17, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

"The in-article content is a claim about an organization, not an individual, so per WP:BLPGROUP it wouldn't get the same treatment. So my advice is to proceed as if this were a normal, non-BLP dispute." SPECIFICO talk 00:34, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

It's quite surprising that you are not understanding the policies and their applications after they've been cited to you by several editors in this matter. Nonetheless, assuming good faith, please review: . Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 00:44, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I want to be clear that my comments on SRich's talk page were limited to exactly what I addressed there: The content that he referenced does not appear to be a BLP violation. That does not imply that the blog is therefore acceptable as a reliable source. You should take that matter to WP:RSN, if you haven't already. --RL0919 (talk) 16:57, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

To be sure, any source may be vetted on RSN. The only BLP issue was the serial deletions of text using "BLP" as a trump card where it is clearly inapplicable. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 17:54, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Notable scholars section

We need to create one of these to show our readers some of the notable figures who have contributed to the Institute. Two of the more well-known Mises Scholars are Joseph Sobran and Sam Francis, both of whom were prominent conservative journalists for years. Each of them came to the Mises Institute after being banished from mainstream conservative publications for their racism. Steeletrap (talk) 20:25, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps the term "notable" should not be used, lest some WP editors confuse that use with the WP:NOTABLE standard? How about a different word? SPECIFICO talk 20:50, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Maybe "noteworthy"? It's more or less a synonym of "notable", but it doesn't have the same policy-based connotation.

By the way: I also think we should in our list of noteworthy scholars provide their institutional affiliation (meaning those institutions which said scholars have done academic work for and associated with over an extended period of time). For example, next to the name Walter Block, we'd list Loyola University New Orleans; next to Joseph Sobran and James J. Martin, we'd list The Institute for Historical Review; next to Hans-Hoppe, we'd list University of Nevada, Las Vegas; next to Thomas Woods we'd list Suffolk County Community College and League of the South; next to Thomas DiLorenzo we'd list the League as well as Loyola University, Baltimore; next to Sam Francis we'd list The Council of Conservative Citizens and so forth. Steeletrap (talk) 00:31, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

That seems correct to me. SPECIFICO talk 00:56, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Importance of non-web accessible sources

I note that, in the article by Prof. Horwitz here: , he refers to a body of writing by Mises Institute-affiliated authors which has not been archived on the web. It will be important to research and cite those publications as we develop the history and intellectual traditions of the Mises Institute. I have not located a source for the printed materials, but I have a few leads in mind. I hope that others will join in the search. SPECIFICO talk 03:04, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

The institute as a cult

While certain RS commentators may have opinions about individuals being members of a cult, it is WP:SYN to say LvMI is a cult. E.g., they are saying A: "This person is a member of a cult". B: "This person has been a member of LvMI or has written in LvMI publications." Therefore C: "LvMI is a cult." – S. Rich (talk) 20:02, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, unless the named economists are also Scientologists or something, one wonders what non-LvMI cult they are being said to belong to. — goethean 20:13, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

That is not what is meant by WP:SYNTH. SPECIFICO talk 20:56, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Noting that SPECIFICO had commented shortly before (mistakenly removing Goethean's comment) I will reply. There are two related problems: 1. We have SYN going on because analysis about individuals is being posted and that analysis does not directly support a characterization of LvMI as a cult. 2. If LvMI is to be called a "cult" or "greatest thing since sliced bread", we need RS that says so directly. If the material is non-RS/blog stuff, we cannot add it. (And thank you, Goethean, for the restoration of SPECIFICO's comment. I was going to do so as part of this edit.) – S. Rich (talk) 21:27, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

To be clear, I was mistaken in my earlier edit. I saw this dif and did not realize the mistake had been corrected. That is my my edit summary said "Reverted to revision 572530870 by Goethean: Restore what looks like a mistaken revision of another's comment." User:Goethean had in fact restored the comment one minute before I made my edit. – S. Rich (talk) 21:49, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Hey, I just put back some stuff you cut out because it was a bad idea. Wanna talk about it? MilesMoney (talk) 03:15, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Paleolibertarian support for LvMI edits (BRD)

I removed this piece from Reason about the writing of the Ron Paul Newsletters; other than mentioning LvMI, it does not discuss the institution. See: . User:MilesMoney reverted here: . With WP:BRD in mind, how is it that Sanchez and Weigel are saying that paleolibertarians supported the founding of LvMI? They simply say Rockwell was the the founder and do not give credit (or blame) to PLs in general as supporting the founding of LvMI. – S. Rich (talk) 03:18, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Rockwell was the founder and was part of the paleolibertarian movement. That's enough right there. Do you want them to say that all paleolibertarians supported the Institute? MilesMoney (talk) 03:35, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

But you are making an illogical stretch. E.g., A: 'Rockwell was PL'. B: 'Rockwell founded LvMI'. Therefore C: 'PLs/the PL movement supported/founded LvMI.' Problem is, Sanchez & Weigel are not saying this. (It not a matter of what I (or you or anyone) want them to say – we edit WP based upon what they actually say.) – S. Rich (talk) 03:55, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

What was Rockwell's role in the PL movement? MilesMoney (talk) 04:28, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

He is worshiped as the god of the PLs. Virgins (male and female) are sacrificed to him regularly in both public and private PL ceremonies. And LvMI is the secret headquarters of the PL movement where they secretly implant biochips in the various people who happen to take courses or simply drop by. (Thankfully, I've never been to Auburn, AL, and I am immune...I am immune...I am immune from their influence.) – S. Rich (talk) 04:37, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Ok, then as the PL "god", his support for the Institute means the PL's supported it. Glad that's settled. MilesMoney (talk) 05:00, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, though – you won't be able to use my talkpage comment as RS in this regard. (BTW, are you a virgin? If so, there is a first-class Delta flight to Alburn AL waiting for you at the nearest airport.) – S. Rich (talk) 05:06, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to politely ask you to give me a serious answer. MilesMoney (talk) 08:15, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Seriously it does not matter what Rothbard's role was with the PLs. This article is about LvMI, not Rockwell or the PLs. We have RS that describes his role with LvMI, and we can use that RS. But using other RS that describes his PL leanings, leadership, philosophy, etc., and which does not directly support article text about LvMI, is improper. (And as stated above, the mere fact that Sanchez & Weigel mention Rockwell as the founder of LvMI does not mean they say the "paleo libertarian movement which supported the founding of" LvMI. They mention the January 1992 Report (LvMI was founded 1982), but does that report talk about LvMI? Moreover, their article is about the Ron Paul Newsletters. We cannot use it.) – S. Rich (talk) 14:44, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

The part you object to is simply framing for the quote. Without it, the quote's purpose and relevance is much less clear. MilesMoney (talk) 17:28, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I object to the entire passage. It seeks to address PL-movement support for LvMI, but the reference provided does not document such support. It only says Rothbard was PL and had founded LvMI. (A similar situation exists for the other passes. E.g., David Friedman et al.) – S. Rich (talk) 17:34, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Objecting to the content of a reliable source is pointless. Get over it. MilesMoney (talk) 17:45, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I am not objecting to the content of the source. I object to how it is used in WP. – S. Rich (talk) 17:48, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

You're gonna have to be more specific. Do you object to what it says about Rothbard's plan to rope in the rednecks? Do you think it's irrelevant to an article about the Institute? MilesMoney (talk) 17:51, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

. As above, Rothbard's plans were whatever they were. What support do we have that says LvMI was part of the plan? None. It is conjecture to say LvMI was part of the plan, and WP is not the place for such conjecture. – S. Rich (talk) 17:59, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

@srich - If you have reasoned concerns, based on policy, with respect to the article text or sources please state them clearly and with diffs to text and policy so that other editors can discuss them. You have failed to do so. In order to ensure that you are understood, please refrain from any humor, irony, sarcasm, parody, or other distracting insertions, including smileyfaces and extraneous links. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 17:54, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Lighten up. – S. Rich (talk) 17:59, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

You can pose as the clown prince of WP if you like, but that stance is not going to lead to improvement of the articles here. If you can't post on topic your efforts are wasted. SPECIFICO talk 18:02, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

The question remains: Does the Sanchez and Weigel article directly support the assertion that the PL movement supported the founding of LvMI? – S. Rich (talk) 14:54, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Other Bold edits -- moving on to Discussion (BRD)

User:MilesMoney – it seems you disagree with some other edits I made. One: Here you restored the mention of Time magazine and National Review (). If they do not describe LvMI as a cult, how do we justify keeping this in the article supporting a description of LvMI as a cult? And two, here: you restored other material which discusses people associated with LvMI, but which do not touch upon LvMI itself. Keeping in mind that WP:RS says "Context matters ... Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article. " how can we keep this material in the article? – S. Rich (talk) 03:33, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Both Buckley and Doherty called it a cult, and Time and NR bring this up, so it's not original research. MilesMoney (talk) 03:55, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

The Time and NR pieces do not use the word "cult". Where am I missing it? Please help. – S. Rich (talk) 03:58, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Who was David Koresh? MilesMoney (talk) 04:19, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Koresh is not the issue. We cannot say "Koresh was part/leader of a cult, others have compared LvMI to Koresh, therefore LvMI is a cult." – S. Rich (talk) 04:27, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Help me out here: what could Doherty have intended by comparing Rothbard to Koresh? MilesMoney (talk) 04:34, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

But what was Doherty saying about LvMI? E.g., LvMI in particular and specifically? The reference must directly support the edits we add. – S. Rich (talk) 04:41, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Who are Rothbard's followers? MilesMoney (talk) 04:47, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

The zombiefied sacrificed virgins. So what? The WP editing question is where is the RS that is On Point about the followers and their role at LvMI? – S. Rich (talk) 04:54, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

The WP editing question remains: What was Doherty saying about LvMI? – S. Rich (talk) 15:02, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Did you read the article? Yes or no? MilesMoney (talk) 02:26, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

The reference cited – Jonah Goldberg – talks about Doherty, but Goldberg does not even mention LvMI. So how does that reference work to directly support anything about LvMI? Because Goldberg is the cited reference it does not matter to this analysis what Doherty says. Rather, if Doherty has something pertinent to LvMI, then Doherty should be cited. But we cannot go and say "Goldberg says Doherty has said something about LvMI." WP:PROVEIT applies, and it does not matter if I've read something or not. So, as before, I ask what does Doherty say? – S. Rich (talk) 03:18, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I asked you a simple question and you tried to dodge it. Fact is, you haven't read the article. We all know this now because Doherty didn't say it, Buckley did. I got that detail wrong (by accident, of course), but you never corrected me because you never read the article. I think you should take a break from this until you have time to do your homework. Until you do, I'm not sure what you can contribute. MilesMoney (talk) 03:42, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Miles, I'm quite sure you missed Doherty by mistake, but I asked you twice "what does he say?" (Basically it was an invitation to you to correct your own mistake.) In any event, if Buckley says something, then we must use what he says directly to support the article. Doing so, by citing Buckley, will satisfy PROVEIT. Using Goldberg does not. – S. Rich (talk) 03:57, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I'll be glad to discuss this with you once you return from your break. Until then, it would be counterproductive. MilesMoney (talk) 03:59, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Okay. Talk with you tomorrow. In the meantime, feel free to add anything in response to my request that we get citations from Buckley which directly support material in the article. Good night. – S. Rich (talk) 04:03, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Murphy blog as RS for article (BRD)

In this diff , I removed the Robert Murphy blog citation as SPS. The removal was reverted here . With the WP:BRD process in mind, I open the discussion with the following points supporting removal of the Murphy citation:

The citation is Robert Murphy's "personal blog" and is WP:SPS.
Murphy is an economist and his relevant field is economics.
The cited page is not about the subject of economics. It discusses his personal history with Mises.org and various people associated with it. Accordingly, he is not discussing something within his area of expertise.
Simply having had experiences with LvMI & its people does not qualify him as an expert. Nor has his work about LvMI been published by reliable third party publications.
As the blog entry is discussing living third parties, the restrictions of WP:ABOUTSELF apply.
Other than being an adjunct scholar with LvMI and having his work published by LvMI, I find nothing that shows Murphy having any official role in the administration of LvMI.

Comments are welcome. – S. Rich (talk) 20:42, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

These range from tenuous to unsupportable and none of this is in the spirit of the policy you are claiming to apply. The source is proper and reflects a discussion which has been joined by and commented on by others affiliated or familiar with the Institute. SPECIFICO talk 21:20, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh? Would you specify by number which are tenuous or unsupportable, and explain why. And what discussion has there been about the Murphy blog? A search in the talkpage archive for "Murphy" comes up with nothing. This thread is the first time Murphy's blog has been brought up on this talkpage. – S. Rich (talk) 21:28, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Please support your proposed deletion with diffs to the article text and specific WP policy text you feel is violated. It will help if you also provide quotes from the cited references you feel support your view. A clear and complete statement of your view will facilitate comments not just from me but from all who come here to discuss. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 21:33, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

The diffs are in the first line of the discussion. They pertain to the link to Murphy's blog. The policy and guidelines are specified with links to WP:ABOUTSELF and WP:SPS. – S. Rich (talk) 21:36, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Your previous comment, in which you appear to misread me to be referring to WP talkpage archives rather than to the discussion among Mises-affiliated scholars again raises the concern which Miles expressed above -- namely, that you have not taken the time or effort to make yourself familiar with the cited sources and other references on the matter under discussion. SPECIFICO talk 21:39, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

If there is discussion on point elsewhere, you might supply those diffs or links for the benefit of other editors. (I have no idea what those diffs are, much less determine how they are pertinent.) The only question posed for discussion here is whether the Murphy blog is acceptable. If there are other refs which pertain to the discussion, please specify them and explain how they make the Murphy blog an acceptable source. – S. Rich (talk) 22:08, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I've responded to your statement as best I can. You haven't supported any of your "points" with evidence. SPECIFICO talk 22:32, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh? No evidence?

The link to Murphy's blog is right there.
The article about Murphy describes him as an economist.
The blog speaks for itself.
As with #3, the content of the blog post speaks for itself -- how does one argue that Murphy is talking about anything other than his experiences at LvMI. And where is there anything that he has published by third parties about LvMI?
As stated in the point made, Murphy is talking about third parties and the WP guidance/policy applies.
If Murphy has no official role at LvMI other than publishing or lecturing, what relevance does his non-Mises.org blog post have to do with LvMI. His personal blog relates his personal experience, nothing more. – S. Rich (talk) 23:29, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

You're not answering the question, so you're just wasting our time here. Do I need to repeat the question for you or did you understand it the first time? MilesMoney (talk) 04:15, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Miles, you are the one who restored the Murphy's personal blog citation. The WP:ONUS is on you to justify retention of the blog as RS. You have done nothing in this regard, and SPECIFICO simply avoids addressing the points. A discussion is needed. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 14:29, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Srich, I have amply addressed your "points" on various threads, to the extent you've articulated any substantive issues. I'm going to advise you again to reflect before you post personal remarks and other off-topic material which does not contribute to the discussion of content and policy. SPECIFICO talk 15:06, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Moved to WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#consultingbyrpm.com/blog -- personal blog of economist Robert Murphy

– S. Rich (talk) 16:44, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Right, when you can't get your way, move it to some other page. MilesMoney (talk) 16:52, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I asked you to WP:PROVEIT. You were editing today, but I saw nothing here. Well, you should feel free to defend the blog on the RSN. Some article talk pages don't get a lot of views, so such discussions generally benefit from wider exposure. – S. Rich (talk) 17:05, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

It's not my job to make your case for you. If you can't explain your objection, I have nothing to do. MilesMoney (talk) 17:20, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Neo confederate & SPS criticisms (BRD)

In this edit SPECIFICO reverted several changes I made.

Jeffrey Tucker is removed as a key person. (~~While not specified in the article, there is RS to support this, which can be and will be supplied.~~ Added comment: I recall, per SPLC, he was research director. Not a big deal. But SPECIFICOs revert was wholesale and these other BRD criticisms remain. 03:48, 15 September 2013 (UTC))
SPLC has certainly "criticized" LvMI as neo confederate, thus this remark belongs in the criticism section.
The SPLC paragraph was combined with other SPLC remarks. They do not use the term "far right", and my edit quoted the exact term they used – "hard right". (I do read the material.)
One SPLC reference does use the term neo confederate, but the other does not. (In any case, repeating the SPLC allegation of LvMI as neo confederate twice is UNDUE.)
They do use the term "anti-immigrant", which I added (and SPECIFICO deleted).
The characterization of Rothbard's view as "anti-lesbian", because he used the term lesbian in a commentary (whether favorably or not) does not make him an anti-lesbian. Saying so is OR.
SPECIFICO's edits also disrupt the citation improvements I made.

S. Rich (talk) 02:55, 15 September 2013 (UTC)03:48, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

You're doing it again. Unless you can link your complaints to policy, you're wasting our time. I suggest you take a break, do some of your homework, and then come back. Until you do your homework, your break isn't over. MilesMoney (talk) 04:15, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

@srich:

If you are concerned by "wholesale revert" please don't make several unrelated edits in a single bundle. In this case each element of my revert was appropriate.
SPLC does not state that this is a criticism, it is their description. "Criticism" is your interpretation.
The text does not quote the term "far-right" to be SPCL's exact words. The meaning is clear and ordinary English usage.
Again, you mis-state the facts. The article does not repeat the SPLC "neoconfederate" statement. The word neo-confederate occurs for the second time in the context of Gene Callahan's remarks in support of Rockwell.
Your representation of SPLC's view could be read as disparaging of vMI scholars who are not "anti-immigrant" and a more specific treatment already occurs in the article text.
Again you misrepresent the cited reference, which details a pattern of blame placed on diverse individuals whom Rothbard tags as "lesbian".
Wouldn't it be grand if you'd reflect on whether that comment is constructive and strike it?

I think these responses show why your edit was reverted and should not be in the article. Please reflect. SPECIFICO talk 04:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I'd just like to add one point: Let's pretend that SRich is right: neo-confederate is a criticism. So what?

This is Misplaced Pages, not the von Mises Annual Love-Fest. We're allowed to include criticism. In fact, we're obligated to. We shouldn't care if it offends some fanboys, so long as it follows the rules. MilesMoney (talk) 05:18, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Removal of under construction template & undoing edits undertaken

{{underconstruction}} on a section means the concerned editor is working on the particular article or section. While sometimes helpful, there is no template requirement that pending edits be explained. Earlier edit summaries said more work was needed and to be done. Undoing the work that had been done by not waiting for 2 hours and 9 minutes before getting into the pending work, and then removing the template is, putting it as politely as possible, hardly cooperative editing. – S. Rich (talk) 03:38, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Communication is the basis of collaboration. You've previously mounted and then abandoned these templates, also without explanation. It serves no purpose if you do not share with others the improvements on which you seek collaboration. Please do so if you choose to reinsert the template. SPECIFICO talk 03:40, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I communicated. Two edit summaries communicated that more work was needed and the underconstruction template communicated that more work was underway. The template also communicates the words "several days". But it was removed 2 hours and 9 minutes after I posted it. The communication could have gone two ways. E.g., "Srich, I see you made such-and-such change. How about if we word it this way....?" No, supposedly the article is improved by reverting my changes and then not asking if I was done, and by removing the template. Hack away, SPECIFICO. Hack away. – S. Rich (talk) 04:04, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Polemicist

Does anyone genuinely doubt that Rothbard is considered by reliable sources to be a polemicist? If so, they should do some basic research until they're competent. Start with this. MilesMoney (talk) 17:14, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

The Boettke article does use the term polemist to describe Rothbard, but I don't think it talks about "the split". In this regard, it does not directly support the material presented. The better description of Rothbard is the one in his article -- political theorist & economist. "Libertarian" can get thrown in too because it is used in the first sentence of Rothbard's lede. But adding the mention of this aspect of Rothbard's resume is WP:UNDUE. The article is about LvMI and this is a side issue. Still, we have to present the description of Rothbard with a minimum of POV. – S. Rich (talk) 17:15, 21 September 2013 (UTC)17:19, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

The Boettke paper serves Rothbard up as a libertarian economist and theorist. Boettke's personal opinion comes forward to say that he thinks Rothbard is not a true Austrian economist but a property rights economist. Boettke's opinion comes forward again to say he thinks Rothbard chose the path of polemicist. Neither of these Boettke opinions are solid enough to remove Rothbard from the category of Austrian economists or libertarians as opposed to someone who might be a career polemicist without portfolio. Binksternet (talk) 17:28, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Moreover, we seek to have consistency between various descriptions from article to article. Calling him a polemicist in one article, a polecat in another, and a pole dancer in a third is not encyclopedic. (And I like polemicists!) – S. Rich (talk) 17:36, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

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