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  • Denials that the Kurds are Iranian, with claims that they are instead Median or Indo-European. However, the Medians were also Iranian, and Iranian is Indo-European, so these denials make little sense.
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Language group

I recommend changing spoken language to "Northwestern Iranian language" from "Iranic" langauge, as it's more specific, considering there are tens of Iranian langauges, not counting all INDO-Iranian langauges. The English speak a West-Germanic langauge, the French speak a Gallo-Italic langauge, the Russians speak an East-Slavic language. It is relevant to distinguish.

More famous Kurd

Hi, there are more famous Kurd ; Darin Zanyar, Ahmet Kaya, Namosh, Sadet Karabulut and Özlem Çekiç, Adnan Karim, Widad Akrawi, Yosef Shiloach, Mehmed Uzun and Simko Shikak can any administrator add them in to table? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.102.219.196 (talk) 16:28, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Improving this article

What would the users here say are the major points in which this article has to be improved so that it can get a better assessment?

For those interested, I've been working on adding a lot of information to this page, the draft of which can be found on my userpage. As of know, I only need to add references, if anyone wants to help with that, feel free. However, additional sections should be added in the future. Could someone give me some feedback concerning the structure, writing style etc.? Znertu (talk) 16:43, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Article not very scientific

This article has several issues, which, if resolved, would greatly improve its accuracy and quality. Here are A FEW examples of SOME passages and issues -- the following list is not exhaustive:

      • 1) Connecting the etymology of "kurd" to ANY Sumerian term is not reasonable, for this would require a detailed and plausible explanation on (A) how this toponym became an ethnonym and (B) how it travelled through at least 1100 years and reached Kurds, who adopted it (while the first Iranian source with any term that could be linked to the Kurds (Middle Persian kwrt-) is from the much later AD times). The sources for this hypothesis are misrepresented (Asatrian does not readily accept the link).

The only POSSIBLY PLAUSIBLE hypothesis is the Middle Persian etymology of kwrt- (kurd), mentioned e.g. by the renowned and accepted scholar Nyberg. Even if you accept this as the etymology of Kurd, it must be pointed out that this ethnonym did not specify the same peoples as today in Middle Persian times ("Kurd" was a (possibly negative) collective (probably Persian) term for certain nomadic tribes living the Zagros mountains that were deemed dangerous).

N.B. the Sumerian hypothesis rests on practically no serious, accepted and discussed scholarly source, while the Middle Persian term kwrt- (kurd) is known and discussed by major reputable scholars in the field (Nyberg, MacKenzie, Paul, etc.).

RESULT: The Sumerian hypothesis does not meet the scholarly standards to justify a mentioning.

SUGGESTION: Completely delete the Sumerian etymology and merely suggest a POSSIBLE root in Middle Persian kwrt- (kurd) and cite e.g. Nyberg, Manual of Pahlavi and at least one manuscript where this word is found as a source.


      • 2) The tone of the article is rather unscientific, i.e. it is not neutral and strictly objective, but rather hints at an idiosyncratic "ideology" or "concept" the author(s?) have in mind. One example (of many):

"Nonetheless, Ludwig writes that linguistics does not provide a definition for when a language becomes a dialect, and thus, non-linguistic factors contribute to the ethnic unity of some of the said groups, namely the Kurmanj, Kalhur, and Guran"

This passage is completely irrelevant for the ETYMOLOGY of the term "Kurd" and rather appears to be some sort of JUSTIFICATION of something.

RESULT: Like a thread that is weaved through the whole article, there is a constant - although implicit - anxiety to uphold the ideas (whether or not justified) that the Kurds are indigenous and all of the people being called "Kurds" today can justifiably be called Kurds, which, as a sidenote, is by no means communis opinio, cf. the discussion about (and by members of) the Zazaki speaking people or the Gurani speaking people, to mention but some examples).

SUGGESTION: Delete irrelevant, misplaced or redundant passages, strictly provide necessary, accurate information that applies to each section's topic and follows common opinion in research. If necessary, create a new section for specific issues of identity.


      • 3) The article contains tautologies (connected with point 2 above)., i.e. statements/concepts that cannot be falsified and are by no means unique to the Kurds and hint at non-scientific motives. A good example for that is the term "indigenous" in connection with the origin of the Kurds.

The claim that the Kurds are "indigenous" to the countries they live in is not meaningful, let alone scientifically proven or even plausible. The quoted source is not a scholarly source with an argument that can be traced back to a number of research papers, but merely a very dubious statement by a non-expert in an (social sciences) encyclopaedia dealing with a modern phenomenon (the developing world). Furthermore, the following passage is a pure tautology:

"The Kurdish people are believed to be of heterogenous origins combining a number of earlier tribal or ethnic groups including Median, Lullubi, Guti, Cyrtians, Carduchi. They have also absorbed some elements from Semitic, Turkic and Armenian people."

The very statement could be stated about the Iranians as a whole, and in a similar fashion about almost every people on this planet. Yet we would not describe the Iranians as a mix of various ancient peoples, as we wouldn't to it with the Germans, but we follow the identity of the superstrate and thrace THAT people back. An ethnicity is usually the result of a migration, with a superstrate (in this case the Iranians) usually imposing its language on one or more substrates, but importing genetic material from it/them to varying degrees. The adopted and common norm with all other cases is to refer to a people in terms of the superstrate and not to every possible genetic influence, i.e. we speak of the Germans who descend from the Germanic people, not the Celts/Sorbs/Huns/Romans/Sarmathians etc. AND Germans, all of whom have let traces in the German ethnogenesis before and after the migration of the Germanic people. Similarly, we usually refer to the Turks as a people originally from the Siberian steppe and Western Mongolia that migrated to present Antolia at some point. Furthermore, why stop at the mentioned "earlier tribal or ethnic groups", why is there no mentioning of the Persians, Parthians, and several modern Iranian peoples as a further source of influence as well as the ancient Elamite people, who undoubtedly lived in Iran before the Iranians and had a certain influence on Western Iranians (i.e. Kurds)?

Moreover, almost the entire Iraqi part inhabited by Kurds today was inhabited by the ancient Assyrians many hundreds of years before the Kurds migrated to these areas (i.e. the "Kurdish" cities of Erbil, Mosul or Kirkuk were all Assyrian/Aramaic cities and still bear Assyrian names (Erbil = Arbela etc.) -- the Aramaic/Assyrian people still dwell in those areas as a people distinct from the Kurds today and have retained their distinct identity. Hence the notion that the Kurds are an indigenous minority in all the countries where they live is evidently false.

The Kurds as a population (not necessary people!) were first mentioned in medieval times, their present identity probably formed at a much later stage. Thus the oldest acceptable age of the "Kurds" as an entity lies in medieval times, if one wants to adhere to common practice in academia. (i.e. apply the same scientific and scholarly standards on this topic as on every other people in history).

RESULT: In its present state, the article appears to be arguing in favour of a presupposed (historical) concept of the entity "Kurd" and hence relies on dubious, idiosyncratic arguments involving tautologies, rather than describing the Kurdish people and history in a scientific, objective way adherent to common practice in academia.

SUGGESTION: Entirely remove passages such as the above that are based on tautologies and non-falsifiable arguments; remove "trivial statements" ("indigenous" etc.) that appear to be rather "arguments" and make the article appear politically motivated. Apply the same standards of description as with all other peoples.


92.229.63.62 (talk) 02:46, 3 July 2013 (UTC)Charles William Parker

You've made some very valid points, some of which I don't entirely agree with, but I'll get back on those later. First and foremost there's a more important issue though; namely, there's a whole lot of different styles of references being used. Would you (as in: all contributors) agree to stick to Template:Citation? Znertu (talk) 21:43, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi - thanks for your reply! I am by no means an experienced Misplaced Pages editor, so I have no clue what you mean by template citation and that stuff. I'm just an Academic working in the field (amongst others) who gave his input. I am not going to edit any article on Misplaced Pages due to the fact that Misplaced Pages has proven to be highly susceptible to group action by cooperating (and often biased) moderators and is not peer reviewed. However, I am curious about the points where you do not agree with me, so feel free to point them out.

My apologies for the late response.

1. As you can see, Hennerbichler believes it could have been adopted by several peoples throughout the centuries to denote mountain dwellers who lived in more or less the same area. I, personally, believe that the Carduchians form the direct ancestors of the Kurds. Judging by their language (probably Iranic), name (Gordyene->Koord), region and date of attestation (their last mention coincide more or less with the first mention of Kurds, and their place of habitation was also a place were the earliest Kurds were said to have lived). 2. Agree 3. The first mention of Kurds was actually in ancient times, and undisputed as an ethnic group in medieval times. Kurds also have been longer in present-day Iraqi Kurdistan longer than is often assumed, but if we go back to the foundation of those cities, Kurds are indeed not their founders.Znertu (talk) 22:30, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Update of 8 July

So I edited the article quite a bit.

Rewritten:

  • intro
  • etymology (more comprehensive)
  • religion (first gave information about the founders and sacred texts of each religion)

Added:

  • multiple historical sections
  • multiple cultural sections

If one has any comments, please put them here.

Still to be done:

  • cuisine
  • literature
  • genetics
  • expand history sections
  • expand some of the other cultural sections (music, women)
  • adress some of the other issues in this talk page

Znertu (talk) 22:48, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

You did great job, but your intro is a little bit too much POV & incorrect. It's OK to call West Asia as Kurdish motherland, but calling them "indigenous" people may assume they're the same as Basques in Europe. Western Asia is also motherland of many other Iranian peoples, as same as Europe is for >90% modern peoples in Europe, but it doesn't make them indigenous. Such ultra-nationalist claims are common elsewhere, especially among Central Asia and Balkan. Second thing is popular urban myth about "largest ethnic group without a state". Just in India you'll find at least four larger ethnic groups: Biharis (105 mil.), Tamils (77 mil.), Gujaratis (70 mil.) and Malayalis (36 mil.). Misplaced Pages as encyclopedia should deal with facts, not nationalist myths. --HistorNE (talk) 16:51, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
HistorNE, first of all, please stop using the term "ultra-nationalist".
"Kurds are often regarded as the largest ethnic group without a state" This sentence does NOT say they are the largest, it says they are often regarded as the largest stateless nation and it's a fact that many sources describe them as such, myth or not they do. --Երևանցի 18:14, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
By the way dear HistorNE, please revise your own user page. Babak Khorramdin has never been claimed by the Armenians. Armenians are Apostolic Christians, not Muslims or Zoroastrian. --Երևանցի 18:17, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
Such claims were pushed in intro long time ago but were excluded, now somebody has inserted them back. If something is obviously wrong, then there's no needed to insert it, especially not in introduction. --HistorNE (talk) 19:20, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
"obviously wrong" according to whom? According to you? Please provide sources. There are sources that do call them the largest stateless nation, I haven't seen a source that denies it. --Երևանցի 19:33, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
I mentioned four ethnic groups only from India which are demographically larger and don't have own state. Please search former discussions, there are plenty of them and conclusion was always the same, we don't need to lose time for do it one more time. --HistorNE (talk) 19:37, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
Dear HistorNE, no matter what, I can't take your words as facts. The New York Times and at least 5 book call them the largest stateless nation. I don't have any reason not to believe them. --Երևանցի 19:42, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
Of course sources are most important but as I said, it's obviously wrong and there has been endless including-excluding of that sentence despite "sources". You can find more of them in article Stateless nation. If you're not sure what to do, consult some administrator for opinion. --HistorNE (talk) 19:52, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
You are the one who is disputing the content, not me. --Երևանցի 20:08, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
@HistorNE: thank you, but that line was already present, and since it was well-sourced, I kept it in. It's just a matter of how one views it, the language is Iranic, which indeed isn't West Asian in origin, but the ethnogenesis of the Kurds, as well as the largest part of the people's genetics stem from the Middle East. Furthermore, the difference between Kurds and those populations of India you mentioned, is that those populations have their own regions (Gujaritis have Gujarat for example), which Kurds don't (except for Iraqi Kurdistan and Kordestan province, which only cover a small part of Kurdistan), and most importantly, the Kurds are actively pushing for an independent country.Znertu (talk) 13:19, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
No problem, it can surely be mentioned if sourced but surely not in intro since it's incorrect. That's why I put it down, with explanation. I don't get ethnogenesis part, there are Turcophone Kurdish tribes, Arabized Kurdish tribes, Kurdish-speaking Turks and Arabs, etc. (see Iranica: Kurdish tribes). Concept that ethnogenesis is related to people/nation has died with Nazi Germany. Even genetic analizes of Kurgan graves show proto-Indo-Europeans were of heterogenic origin, so expecting that modern peoples/nations are sharing same genes is ridiculous. Furthermore, not all Kurds are pushing for an independent country - majority of Kurds in Turkey for sure, but Kurds in Iraq are satisfied with autonomy and their leaders didn't expressed will for uniting with formers, and Kurds in Iran don't push even for autonomy. --HistorNE (talk) 18:33, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
What are you even talking about? Ethnogenesis means the formation of an ethnicity, and the Kurdish ethnicity formed in the Middle East, not outside of it. Hence, the Kurdish ethnicity is indigeneous to the Middle East. Additionally, the Kurds are genetically largely West Asian with a signicifant input of Iranic tribes. That's why they cluster more closely with neighbouring peoples than with (distant) Iranics like Pashtuns. Znertu (talk) 16:13, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
I don't doubt Kurdish ethnicity has formed in the Middle East, but 99% others also did. Including later ethnicities like Turkish or earlier like Assyrian. On such basis you can call all current ethnicities in West Asia as indigeneous. --HistorNE (talk) 17:04, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
Not all of them (the term Turk existed before they came to the ME, for example), but most of them did, yeah. That still doesn't exclude that the Kurdish one sprang from the ME, and most importantly, that Kurds genetically are overwhelmingly native (just like others).

History Question

Opinions needed. So, I found this book (which is also cited, indirectly, in the article for Kurdish Christians): Syrische Akten Persischer Martyr. I have the full PDF of this book, and on pages 74-75 the following passage is indeed found:

Als er dahin gelangte , wunderten sich seine Verwandten sehr und die ganze Stadt (so) ward christlich. Darnach begehrte Säbhä aus dem Culturlande ins Gebirge zu reisen.Auf der Wanderung dahin gelangten sie zu einer Quelle, bei der sie von Kurden überrascht und von diesen in deren Lager abgeführt wurden. Diese Kurden beteten die Sonne an. Die Missionäre wurden in einem Zelte gefangen gehalten. Die Hausherrin desselben fuhr in der Nacht auf und schrie : von diesen Männern gehen feurige Pfeile aus. (it goes on a bit longer)

I'd like to add this to the page, but it seems a bit dodgy. Reading up on Sabbas, it seems he never even tread near Kurdistan. Also, this book is from 1880, and I can't seem to find any other mention of Sabbas meeting Kurds. Anyone got knowlegde on the subject? Znertu (talk) 21:18, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

The acts were written in the 4th-5th centuries. Mentioning of Kurds in that translation seems anachronistic. I found an Arabic translation of that acta, here it describes a different Saba, those Sun worshippers appear as Majus there.--Kathovo talk 20:18, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for your contribution, but the German translator does seem to base himself on the original text. In the footnotes of the whole book the original text is referred to, including the term Kurd. I screencapped it, so it'd be nice if someone could say that what he's referring to actually says 'Kurd'. German Translation Znertu (talk) 00:51, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Btw, it seems it's indeed not Sabbas the Sanctified who is told about in the book, but Shemon Bar Sabbae.Znertu (talk) 12:43, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
I read much about origins of Kurds but I don't remember it (there's possibility that I omitted it, but higly unlikely). Since we're talking about late ancient period I'm sure such fact would be highly circulated in many books, but obviously that's not a case so I believe Kathovo is right. --HistorNE (talk) 19:36, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Shah Ismail I

He was from mixed Greek (mother side) and Turkmen (father side) ancestry. The Kurdish ancestry is a very weak link going back to only one ancestor who lived 300 years before his time. He can not be considered Kurdish in any meaningful sense. Please check out the following sources.. The official language of the his court was also Turkish.

  1. Kissling, H.J.; Spuler, B.; Barbour, N.; Trimingham, J.S.; Braun, H.; Hartel, H. (1997). The Last Great Muslim Empires. BRILL. p. 188. ISBN 9004021043. Ismail must have had much more Turkish and Greek than Iranian blood in his veins, and his mother tongue was an Azeri Turkish dialect; poems, mostly in Turkish, from his pen have been preserved.
  2. Chamber's Encyclopaedia. Vol. 10. New York: International Learnings Systems. 1968. p. 603. ISBN 0-684-10114-9. one-quarter of Ismail's blood was Greek. The home language of the early Safavids was Turkoman Turkish in which Ismail wrote poetry.. {{cite encyclopedia}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  3. Towfighi, Parviz S. (2009). From Persian Empire to Islamic Iran: a history of nationalism in the Middle East. Edwin Mellen Press. p. 59. ISBN 0773447792.

So I don't think it is reasonable to include him as a Kurdish personality. He did not speak the language, his immediate ancestors were Turkmen and Greek and his only possible Kurdish ancestor lived 300 years or roughly 10 generations before him. Yes, strictly speaking that may make him less than 0.1 percent Kurdish. So I suggest to remove him from the image gallery. There are many more half-Kurdish people that we can include like former prime ministers of Turkey İsmet İnönü and Turgut Özal. They were at least over 25% percent Kurdish.Vekoler (talk) 07:56, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

To be honest, I agree with you. It must be noted though that, as the Middle East is a heavily male-dominated society, the patrilineal ancestry was often most important in determining ethnicity. Though, in Ismail I's case, the Kurdish ancestry was indeed heavily diluted, and he didn't consider himself as one either. Might I take this oppurtunity to re-insert Karim Khan Zand? The rationale to remove him was that he was of a Laki tribe, and only perhaps of Kurdish descent. This is quite a faulty reasoning, seeing that Lakis are regarded as being Kurds too. Both by themselves as by others.
Two important characteristics of the Lori group which have often been overlooked are its internal diversity (see below) and its status as a continuum between Kurdish and Persian. Specifically, the varieties on the ends of the continuum (NLori and SLori) have more in common with neighboring languages than with each other. Laki, a Kurdish language beyond the northwestern end of the Lori continuum, shows a great degree of phonological similarity and shared vocabulary with NLori; in Ilām Province, the division between the two languages is still unclear (see “Language and ethnicity,” above). Similarly, the Mamasani variety of SLori shares much in common with neighboring dialects of Fārs (and even with the near-extinct old dialect of Shiraz), and the linguistic boundary between the two is difficult to define. This contrasts with NLori and SLori, which are unintelligible with one another. Even Baḵtiāri, which is transitional between the two, is not intelligible with NLori (e.g., Ḵorramābādi) and SLori (e.g., Mamasani) dialects at the ends of the continuum.
From: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/lori-language-ii
Furthermore, the Kurdish tribes had, it seems, a significant presence in the Zand army:
Baluchistan. There are Kurds in northeastern Persian Baluchistan, who might be the descendants of tribesmen who accompanied the luckless Loṭf-ʿAli Khan Zand on his desperate flight to Bam in 1794. Until the 1880s, they were dominant in Ḵāš, and their leader was known as the Sardār of the Sarḥad (Sykes, pp. 106, 107, 131; see also Bestor). Today, they are widely scattered, some of them living on the southern slopes of the Kuh-e Taftān, others dwelling around Magas (today, Zābol); and still others are settled in Sistān (Afšār Sistāni, p. 918). Hosayn-ʿAli Razmārā mentions eight villages in the district of Bampošt that are inhabited by Baluchi-speaking Zand tribesmen (VIII, pp. 187, 248, 313, 315, 322, 372, 384). These probably moved to Baluchistan at the same time as the Kurds of Ḵāš.
From: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/kurdish-tribes — Preceding unsigned comment added by Znertu (talk • contribs) 11:19, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 14 September 2013

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the section titled "Christianity" the second to the last sentence contains a spelling error: "Some communities of the Iraqi converts have formed their own evangelical churces." Please change "churces" to "churches". Polarnaut (talk) 12:29, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

 Done with thanks, NiciVampireHeart 12:37, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Edit request

The article says "They were forcibly converted through the Muslim Conquests." and then provides absolutlly no reference of their forced conversion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.111.19.213 (talk) 12:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

On Britannica and other issues

Dear user HistorNE,

Although I appreciate your strong patriotic sentiments towards Iran and the Persian homeland, I have to respectfully disagree with your edits and reverts. You are consistently removing information from Britannica regarding the reaction of Kurds to assimilation in Iran where it says:

Kurds in Iran have resisted the Iranian government's efforts, both before and after the revolution of 1979, to assimilate them into the mainstream of national life and, along with their fellow Kurds in adjacent regions of Iraq and Turkey, have sought either regional autonomy or the outright establishment of an independent Kurdish state.

Now, inclusion of the above paragraph and other historical data regarding the events of 1979 should not be misinterpreted as attempts at promotion of separatism in Iran or ethnic hostility towards Persians and Iranians, who have a great culture and rich literary tradition in the Middle East. Who has not heard of Rumi or Khayyam? The issue at stake here is mainly remaining faithful to the neutrality principle and covering all aspects of the modern history of the Kurds in Iran. Surely, some Kurds such as Mr. Qalibaf are well integrated into the mainstream Iranian/Persian way of life, however one should not forget that in recent past, there has been serious hostilities and military conflict between a group of Kurdish rebels and the government forces. Now omitting this aspect from the article, may make it sound nice and pleasant on the surface, but at the end of the day will not help someone who is eager to have a more thorough understanding of the region and its people. It is like whitewashing history of the United States by removing the unpleasant/nasty parts about the civil war in 1860s. So, Please remain calm and look at the whole issue in an objective, neutral fashion instead of reacting solely on emotions and refrain from removing sourced material. If you have objections or concerns about certain paragraphs or data please kindly discuss them here so that other reviewers and editor can also take part in the discussion. This is the only way to enhance the quality and reliability of the article, otherwise trying to impose a single point of view with one-sided arguments, only makes the article look like a propaganda piece. Thanks.Vekoler (talk) 19:56, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

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