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Administrative discussions

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 24 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request

(Initiated 22 days ago on 15 December 2024) voorts (talk/contributions) 00:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

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Requests for comment

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 90 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 70 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide#RfC: History section, adding native American and Australian genocides as examples

(Initiated 61 days ago on 6 November 2024) RfC expired on 6 December 2024 . No new comments in over a week. Bogazicili (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Team Seas#Re: the ocean pollution additions

(Initiated 52 days ago on 15 November 2024) Clear consensus that the proposed edit (and its amended version) violate WP:SYNTH. However, the owning editor is engaging in sealioning behavior, repeatedly arguing against the consensus and dismissing others' rationale as not fitting his personal definition of synthesis; and is persistently assuming bad-faith, including opening an ANI accusing another editor of WP:STONEWALLING. When finally challenged to give a direct quote from the source that supports the proposed edit, it was dismissed with "I provided the source, read it yourself" and then further accused that editor with bad-faith. The discussion is being driven into a ground by an editor who does not (nor wish to) understand consensus and can't be satisfied with any opposing argument supported by Misplaced Pages policy or guidelines. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 22:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel#RfC

(Initiated 45 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Ongoing discussion, please wait a week or two. Bogazicili (talk) 14:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Matt Gaetz#RFC: Accusations of child sex trafficking and statutory rape in the lead

(Initiated 39 days ago on 28 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC tag and the last comment was a couple of days ago. Can we please get a independent close. TarnishedPath 10:42, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Death of Mahsa Amini#RFC: Referring to Masha Amini as Kurdish-Iranian in the lead

(Initiated 38 days ago on 29 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Last comment was a couple of days ago. Can we get an independent close please. TarnishedPath 11:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Nikolai_Rimsky-Korsakov#RFC_on_Infobox_for_Nikolai_Rimsky-Korsakov

(Initiated 35 days ago on 2 December 2024) The last comment on this was on 24 December 2024 and Legobot has removed the RFC tag. An independent closer (preferably an admin) would be welcome. Many thanks - SchroCat (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

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Deletion discussions

Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion/2024 November 27#File:The Musician (Erling Blöndal Bengtsson) by Ólöf Pálsdóttir.jpg

(Initiated 40 days ago on 27 November 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 20#Category:Belarusian saints

(Initiated 17 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 20#Category:Misplaced Pages oversighters

(Initiated 17 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

 Closed by editor JJPMaster. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  16:32, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

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Other types of closing requests

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 103 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump

(Initiated 82 days ago on 16 October 2024) Experienced closer requested. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Tesla Cybercab#Proposed merge of Tesla Network into Tesla Cybercab

(Initiated 80 days ago on 18 October 2024) This needs formal closure by someone uninvolved. N2e (talk) 03:06, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be better to leave that discussion be. There is no consensus one way or the other. I could close it as "no consensus," but I think it would be better to just leave it so that if there's ever anyone else who has a thought on the matter, they can comment in that discussion instead of needing to open a new one. —Compassionate727  14:15, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

 Not done per above. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  16:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 69 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel–Hamas war#Survey

(Initiated 60 days ago on 7 November 2024) Looking for uninvolved close in CTOP please, only a few !votes in past month. I realise this doesn't require closing, but it is preferred in such case due to controversial nature of topic. CNC (talk) 10:44, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Note: I'm happy to perform the merge if required, as have summarised other sections of this article already with consensus. I realise it's usually expected to perform splits or merges when closing discussions, but in this case it wouldn't be needed. CNC (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Shiv Sena#Merge proposal

(Initiated 40 days ago on 27 November 2024) Discussion seems to have stopped. As the proposal is not uncontroversial, and I, as the initiator, am involved, I am requesting an uninvolved editor to close the discussion. Arnav Bhate (talk • contribs) 11:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

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DRV treatment of porn-related content

This thread was severed from a "Harassment from an admin" thread to discuss whether DRV is being unfair on porn-related content -- Jreferee (talk) 15:39, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Well now. What's this open can doing here, and why are there worms wriggling around all over the place?

I think the first issue here is that Erpert, Rebecca1990 and other members active in WikiProject Pornography are not getting satisfaction from DRV. That's a major issue from my point of view. DRV is the end of the line: there's no appeal from a DRV. Therefore users have to have confidence that the process is fair. It's essential: this is an editor retention issue.

Now, there are a very small number of users who regularly attend DRV, and Spartaz is at present the main closer, so if you clash with the DRV regulars in general or with Spartaz in particular, there's not much chance of getting any input from others. So for this kind of situation, where it's alleged that the main DRV closer and/or DRV regulars are showing bias, the only fair answer we have is for previously uninvolved editors to review DRV's recent discussions and Spartaz' closes, and decide for themselves to what extent the accusations of bias are well-founded.

This pretty much has to happen. As soon as it's alleged that this small number of users is biased, our formal processes come to a crunching halt: they just don't allow for that possibility. Therefore we're left with the default Misplaced Pages way, which is for independent, unbiased editors to read, comprehend, think, evaluate, and comment. It's really important that this is happens. Even though I'm a DRV regular and I think we're doing things right and that Erpert's complaint is unfounded, I'd nevertheless encourage anyone reading this discussion please to look closely at DRV's recent decisions and weigh in with their view.

I think the second issue is that DRV takes, and has taken for some time, a very dim view of PORNBIO, and to a lesser extent most other SNGs. We see the GNG as the arbiter of what should be included and will happily overrule SNGs if there's conflict. This is surprising for some editors who have a basic expectation that their WikiProject's favourite SNG will prevail.

In this particular case a further issue is that at least some of us (including me) openly question the reliability/independence of AVN and XBIZ as sources. This questioning is extremely corrosive for WikiProject Pornography, because if AVN and XBIZ aren't reliable/independent sources, then what valid sources do exist for porn articles? If consensus moves in that direction and we do collectively decide to eliminate those sources, then a really high percentage of our pornstar articles are headed for the dustbin.

As a third issue, and this might just be me, I've also wondered whether BLP applies to pornstar articles. For example, is it best to treat that Deuxma article as a BLP? Or is it best treated as an article about a fictional character portrayed by a nameless porn performer? This seems important to me because it helps us decide where the bar for a pornstar article should be.—S Marshall T/C 10:51, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

• About AVN and XBIZ, IMO AVN is pretty more "journalistic" than XBIZ, second I distinguish between the printed magazines and the websites, the websites are actually 85% made of press releases while at least AVN Magazine in its printed form is 85% made of original content including feature length articles, insights, biographical portraits, reviews, interviews, editorials and opinion pieces. XBIZ publishes several magazines, but the ones I checked were very poor of original contents. About BLP Vs. fictional characters, I think it is a mixture of the two things, like for wrestlers or even artists like Lady Gaga, it is an editor's duty to weigh the elements that belong to the one or to the other, eg statements by pornstars who say they are nymphomaniacs, swingers and/or bisexuals should be, in general terms, almost always kept out from the articles. Cavarrone 12:52, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

• It would be hugely helpful if we could somehow draw a clear line between parts of AVN and XBIZ that are or are not reliable. Is there an easy way to distinguish press releases that have been (at most) minimally changed from actual articles? Hobit (talk) 17:23, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

• What I said above. Short articles published by AVN/XBIZ in the section "company-news" or marked as "company press" are very likely to be press releases. On the other hand, the printed AVN magazine includes some easily identificable "secondary" journalism (reliable is not the correct word, as a primary source is not automatically unreliable), eg. the 6-pages-article used as a source in Fashionistas, the 10 or 12 pages article about female porn published this month, the columns by Clyde DeWitt, the "editorial desk" column or the yearly June special issue named "The Fresh Issue" are exemples of valid journalism. A different question is if they are sufficient for a claim of meeting GNG, but frankly I have no record of discussions in which anyone claimed a subject passing general notability on the sole basis of his/her AVN/XbiZ coverage, we are generally extra-cautious about that. Cavarrone 21:11, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

If we're having a real conflict between GNG and SNG (rather than just SNG providing specific guidance or recommendations for how the genre sees itself), that's more signifiant and needs to be resolved first. Otherwise we'll forever be having different DR mechanisms picking whichever one suits each editor's preference. That's no less arbitrary than just scrapping the whole process altogether and relying on individuals to edit-war on each article itself. Or if we generally give deference to "keep" (AfD process requires consensus to delete, vs lack-of-consensus for a del-nom leaves an article existing). Get Misplaced Pages talk:Notability to put their own house in order. DMacks (talk) 15:50, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

• As one of the DRV regulars who generally leans toward inclusion and has no problem with porn coverage, I do feel that there is a significant problem here. Partly there is badgering on the part of Erpert. Partly there are editors that I would say show up to porn bio discussions with a clear leaning toward deletion. But mostly because of WP:PORNBIO. It does seem to create a SNG where folks are generally notable even though they really have no chance of meeting WP:N if you ignore press releases and reprints of press releases. One could argue that's because mainstream news doesn't really cover these folks, so there is a cultural bias that the SNG addresses. But one could also argue that these just aren't notable folks and in any case we shouldn't be writing articles based on press releases. That fundamental issue needs to be resolved. And I think it can be resolved if we work hard to identify actual reliable sources in the field and find a way to narrow the list of awards that we consider in the SNG. Put another way, personalities are in part to blame here, but mostly its a policy problem. And S Marshall notes, that's solveable by getting a wider range of folks involved in getting these issues (RSes for porn, awards that make one notable) resolved. Hobit (talk) 17:23, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
  • It is worth noting that, since the beginning of 2011, DRV has not (per the Wikiproject Pornography deletion list) reversed the outcome of a single porn performer AFD. What the trio of editors is actually complaining about is that DRV is supporting the consensus established at AFD, which they oppose. As Spartaz noted before being driven into a wikibreak, DRV was generally more emphatic about GNG failure overriding a technical pass of PORNBIO language, but it was reinforcing the AFD consensus, not overturning it. It's also worth noting that the objections to DRV don't come from project members as a group, but from three editors who have joined it relatively recently and dismiss previous discussions. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 15:55, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
    • It's pretty obvious that this "trio of editors" consists of Rebecca1990, Guy1890 and me, but if you were paying attention, HW, you would notice that I clearly stated that I am not even a member of WikiProject Pornography. Anyway, you can't use the "dismissing previous discussions" argument because an uninvolved editor (finally!) split this thread. And Equaczion and Guy1890 made a good point a few days ago: about the applicability of WP:PORNBIO apparently working differently in AfD than it does in DRV. Why would the same guideline work differently in different venues? Erpert 18:09, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
      • I was not aware of the apparent fact that DRV is not frequented by a large number of editors or closed by a large number of Misplaced Pages administrators. That could very well explain why "since the beginning of 2011, DRV has not (per the Wikiproject Pornography deletion list) reversed the outcome of a single porn performer AFD."
      • "What the trio of editors is actually complaining about is that DRV is supporting the consensus established at AFD, which they oppose." No, that's not what I am saying at all. I've never brought a single article to DRV while on Misplaced Pages, and, if I've learned anything at all about what happens at DRV, it's that DRV is not a "do-over" of a particular AfD. "DRV was generally more emphatic about GNG failure overriding a technical pass of PORNBIO language"...look, all I have said above is that we need consistent standards. Tell me what the standards (that apply to both AfD & DRV) are for whether or not we can have a pornography-related article on Misplaced Pages, and I'll try & live by them the best that I can. Don't change the game when we go from AfD to DRV and don't pretend like there aren't some editors out there that have an axe to grind when it comes to pornography-related articles. "It's also worth noting that the objections to DRV don't come from project members as a group"...I've actually noticed that the Pornography Project does not seem to operate in a "team environment". There don't appear to be that many truly active members, and I don't see much cross-colaboration unfortunately. "and dismiss previous discussions"...which, again, you never seem to actually refer to Mr. Wolfowitz. There is unfortunately a lot of, IMHO, unsubstaniated opinion tossed around in AfD & DRV pornography-related discussions (from the delete at pretty much all costs POV) without much else backing them up. Guy1890 (talk) 21:00, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
• Like S Marshall, I'm a regular at DRV. Like him, I usually agree with the decisions there on this subject, and greatly respect Spartaz's closes. I do not necessarily agree with the decisions, but that's when I disagree with the consensus. The reason I and other regulars tend to let him do most of the closes is very simple: he does it best. Consensus at DRV is much more complicated that at AfD , because it involves determining several layers of possibilities: not whether an article should be kept, but whether we should argue the question of whether an article should be kept, and what is likely to happen if we do, and what an article will become in the future. Everyone has a different idea of what considerations to treat as more important: the interpretation of WP guidelines is , after all, whatever we want it to be, and the relationship between them is usually what we want to make it.

If you hang around there or AfD, you'll know that I in general differ from the current consensus about using GNG: I would apply it only when there is no plausible alternative. If we were drifting to use it more , it would be a direction I would deplore, but I don't think we are--it varies with different subjects: It varies because we interpret it according to the result we want to get. The reason I disagree with relying on it is indicated by the discussion above; the actual decisions in anything but the obvious depend upon the exact interpretation we want to make of the 3 key words "reliable", "substantial", and "independent". For any closely disputed article, I could interpret them in any direction. Which direction I choose depends upon what I think reasonable and in accordance with the purposes of Misplaced Pages. From what I've seen, even those who claim to take them as precise words and follow the GNG literally decide the hard cases just the way I do, whether or not they realize it. This is specially true of the relationship between the GNG and the SNGs. There is no fixed relationship: In some cases, like WP:PROF, the SNG is explicitly accepted as an alternative. In others, it seems to be accepted as a limitation. In some, it seems to be accepted in practice as the only guideline, though we've usually found some way of wording things to pretend it follows the GNG also.

For Pornobio, the question is what the community wants to do. Ultimately, the consistent trend of decisions at AfD makes the practical rule, and when there is a consistent trend , the general practice at Del Rev is very conservative, as befits an appeal process: we endorse it. What we overturn are decisions we think aberrant or unreasonable. None of the regulars there uses Del Rev to change or defy consensus--even consensus we individually dislike, though we may use the occasion of a dispute there to enter a protest. The reason for the conflict about it is that the community is apparently divided in what it wants to do. As I interpret it, the community is moving consistently towards a narrower interpretation of notability there. If it is, the results will inevitably show it.

And , as with most WP processes, the way to make Del Rev better is for more people to come there, and discussion other issues than the ones they are personally interested in DGG ( talk ) 02:43, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

The only times I ever see porn-related articles at DRV at all is when a user wants to re-create a deleted article and the deleting admin has reservations about it...but then the admin suggests that the matter be taken to DRV (recently, it has happened with Sabrina Deep and Elexis Monroe). Erpert 08:13, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

So what this boils down to is that a small number of users reject the consensus interpretation of PORNBIO, supported by consensus at AFD and DRV, regularly personalize the relevant discussions, continuously press their own relaxed interpretations, which are incompatible with the GNG (the only demonstrated inconsistency raised in the current discussions), and ignore the extensive discussions and the outcome of the relevant RFC(s) from the WP:PEOPLE talk page in 2011 and 2012. The community is divided and the details of PORNBIO, on points I identified here , but the trio of editors pressing these discussions rejects the consensus achieved on other issues, which has been persistently, and pretty consistently, applied at AFD and DRV. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 11:35, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

• Well, hang on, HW. I'm personally responsible for this particular subsection of AN. (Actually Jreferee created it, but he did so in response to my concern.) What I hope it'll "boil down to" is a sanity-check on DRV's recent porn-related decisions, in which previously uninvolved editors give us a bit of welcome scrutiny. If we're going a bit wrong then they'll set us back on the right track. If we're doing things right, then the problem is with WP:PORNBIO and we'll probably end up with another RFC about it.—S Marshall T/C 13:20, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

• HW, I'm not exactly sure what you want here. This is actually the most objective discussion I personally have seen about the situation because as I stated before, uninvolved individuals are making comments. It seems like you have a problem with that, so rather than the "trio of editors" (you really have to stop saying that; this isn't a battle) rejecting consensus, you actually seem to be rejecting outside viewpoints that might disagree with how you personally feel. Also, if the community is divided as you say, that means a consensus hasn't been met, doesn't it? I even clarified in a previous discussion that when a consensus hasn't been made about what to do with an established guideline, the guideline is kept, not deleted. (I welcomed anyone to present evidence of the latter happening and no one did.) Erpert 17:51, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
• "a small number of users reject the consensus interpretation of PORNBIO, supported by consensus at AFD and DRV"...where we apparently apply PORNBIO at AfD and basically ignore PORNBIO at DRV. I can understand how this current situation might satisfy those that might like to see less coverage of pornography-related content on Misplaced Pages, but, as I've stated several times already, I don't see how this status quo is especially fair or reasonable. If PORNBIO is actually the problem & needs to be changed, then so be it.

"which are incompatible with the GNG"...I've already addressed "concerns" of how meeting PORNBIO does somehow "not" meet GNG in this discussion here on September 13th. There's no need to re-hash that here now. I would also say that I basically agree with what was said recently above about GNG: "It varies because we interpret it according to the result we want to get." If that's really what's going on at DRV with respect to GNG, then that also doesn't seem especially fair or reasonable as well IMO.

"and ignore the extensive discussions and the outcome of the relevant RFC(s) from the WP:PEOPLE talk page in 2011 and 2012"...which, once agin, you never seem to link to to back up your arguments here (or pretty much anywhere else for that matter). An American President, that I actually voted for, appropriated the phrase "trust, but verify", which I think very much applies here. Guy1890 (talk) 21:14, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

You're obviously not here to participate in any sort of rational discussion. Which part of "the WP:PEOPLE talk page" could possibly be unclear to you? Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 02:41, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

"You're obviously not here to participate in any sort of rational discussion." Physician, heal thyself. Guy1890 (talk) 03:57, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

HW, you really need to just accept the fact that people are being more objective to the situation this time around (you're the only one who doesn't seem to be). If you can't, maybe it would be best if you just recused yourself from the discussion (or even the subject). Erpert 08:42, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

And, once again, Erpert, you're improperly personalizing the discussion and casting aspersions on an editor who disagrees with you. Why don't you reply to the question I raised: Which part of "the WP:PEOPLE talk page" could possibly be unclear? Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 12:23, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, not taking the bait. Erpert 17:59, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

• The reality is that there really isn't any "bait" to be taken here, since the vaguely-referenced discussions above (from 1-2 years ago...which I've read through BTW) have virtually nothing to do with the topic of this thread ("DRV treatment of porn-related content"), since those discussions barely mention DRV at all. Consensus is not defined as one person continually making a claim that isn't substantiated by the community as a whole. For instance, various editors continually dismissing PORNBIO as an "invalid" guideline merely by re-stating one's only sole opinion isn't the way that I understand consensus to work here on Misplaced Pages. In any event, dismissing PORNBIO doesn't negate the basic & inconvenient fact that ANYBIO & ENTERTAINER are extremely similarly-worded to PORNBIO. In fact, one could even argue that those other guidelines are more expansive than PORNBIO's current (which again, I'm not married to) wording. Guy1890 (talk) 22:52, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
  • One other thing I've noticed lately (well, not lately, but other editors are starting to notice too) is that there are some users who seem to want to delete pornography-related articles and WP:PORNBIO, but instead of commenting here like they should (and have been advised to do), they just clog up AfDs about porn and thus push everything off track. More than that, the rationales they have are inaccurate, and I suggest simple methods for them to justify their claims...with no results.

1. I stated that a "no consenus" result for the validity of PORNBIO (in this case) defaults to "keep" rather than "delete", and it was argued that that meant that the guideline wasn't a guideline after all. I asked for proof of that ever occurring; nothing.
2. It was argued that consensus showed that MILF/Cougar Performer of the Year isn't a valid award category, and I asked for a link to that consensus; nothing.

Basically, if you're going to argue something, at least be able to prove your claims. And repeating the same unsubstantiated claim several times won't make it true. Erpert 09:16, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

• WP:PORNBIO is an odd duck. I ran a couple of RfC's on it a couple years back (to reform it, not delete it). It was clear that practically nobody liked WP:PORNBIO, but because of all the myriad ways to reform it and various subdiscussions over details (or perhaps because the RfC's themselves were poorly formed and run) nothing happened. The result is pretty much as expected: since WP:PORNBIO is ridiculous and an outlier from our usual notability standards, it's mostly ignored. That's what happens when you try to make to rules that force the community to do things it doesn't want to rather than codify accepted practice. You can push the community to some extent by crafting and pushing through a rule, but only to some extent. Sorry. What people unhappy with that need to do is instead advance the proposition "We ought to have an exception to our normal notability and sourcing requirements and include an article on, basically, everyone who's appeared in a porn film, and this would enhance the Misplaced Pages because ___________", and you fill in the blank with cogent and compelling arguments such that people go "Oh, yeah, of course!" That's where you need to direct your energies, I think, and good luck. Herostratus (talk) 01:00, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
  • "'We ought to have an exception to our normal notability and sourcing requirements and include an article on, basically, everyone who's appeared in a porn film". I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. No one that I can tell is asking for any kind of special exception to anything or that every single actor/actress from any genre have an article on Misplaced Pages. If PORNBIO really "is ridiculous and an outlier from our usual notability standards", then why are ANYBIO & ENTERTAINER so similarly-worded? This entire thread is going nowhere. Guy1890 (talk) 04:05, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

• On the contrary, I think that with contributions from people who aren't DRV regulars it's finally started to go somewhere. I agree with Herostratus' analysis of PORNBIO and its history.—S Marshall T/C 11:48, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

• One thing that needs to be remembered is that there are some areas, such as porn and, by my observation, webcomics, where WP:GNG fails as "traditional media" makes a point of not giving significant coverage, in the former case because of 'morals' and in the latter case because of a 'it's not real media' attitude; in the latter case, this ends up with some of the most significant, and well-known, webcomics getting rung up at AfD (and deleted) for "lack of notability" when the problem is a - deliberate - lack of coverage; I'm quite sure the former applies to entertainers who fall under WP:PORNBIO. Now, that's not to say the gates need to be open willy-nilly, but it does mean that we need to remember it's the General Notability Guideline and not words carved in stone handed down from Mount Ararat. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:09, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Another thing that needs to be remembered is that it's not simply the GNG brought into play, but fundamental BLP concerns as well. Part and parcel of the underlying dispute is the repeated effort to write BLPs without reliably sourced information. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 11:10, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

• One of the things we need to decide is whether porn performers' articles really are BLPs. I put it to you that they're fictional characters portrayed by performers (and, yes, so is Lady Gaga).—S Marshall T/C 11:48, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

• There are some performer personas that are purely fictive (see, eg, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Denise Milani (model), an uncontroversial case that somehow led Wikipediocracy to single me out for castigation). but most at least purport to mix genuine biographical elements with promotional claptrap, and are, as Jimbo Wales commented a while ago, mostly kayfabe. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 12:21, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

• • • I'm honestly a bit bothered by the claims of BLP concerns. In part that's because I don't think we should be censoring well-source information that we have every reason to believe to be accurate. So associating something with their profession isn't, ever (IMO) a BLP concern. Secondly, I believe it is insulting to people who work in this field to make such arguments. I'm not going to get into the Feminist theories on porn (though I was surprised to see we have a decent article on the topic ), but I'll simply note that there are certainly folks who are not embarrassed by their work. So basically, I don't think BLP plays a role when we are confirming a well documented fact about someone being a pornographic performer. If their real name isn't generally associated with their acting, we should certainly not do so (for all kinds of reasons). Hobit (talk) 18:22, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
• I feel like WP:PORNBIO is as disliked as WP:NFOOTY, and is in a similar boat; most people want it changed, but no one can agree how to make that change. If Spartaz has regularly closed DRVs on this subject in line with consensus, then they cannot be blamed for any issues with that consensus. What I think should happen is that the relevant WikiProject for this subject draws up a list of "reliable pornographic sources", specifying the reliable sections of them as well. If this happens, then editors external to the project will be able to fully assess whether a performer is notable or not. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:47, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
  • "the relevant WikiProject for this subject draws up a list of 'reliable pornographic sources', specifying the reliable sections of them as well." To a certain extent, this has already been done, but some editors don't seem to want to respect what is written there. Again, I'm not married to the exact wording that's currently in these links either. Guy1890 (talk) 21:04, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
    • Those lists are rather ancient, and haven't been compliant with WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:BLP for years. They date back to a time when the same Wikiproject supported use of nonfree images of living persons, a clear breach of content policy. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 12:30, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
• I think the main source of contention is the WP:PORNBIO guideline. With over 100 categories for the main industry awards AVN Award, it's easy to see how editors outside the biz see this as little more than spam and promotion. Compare to the number of Oscar categories. Also, the current non-consensus PORNBIO even allows for AVN-like nominations to impart notability, of which there are several hundred per year if you add the XBIZ Awards (just look at the toc there). And there's also the FAME Awards and the XRCO Award, also pretty prolific. I suspect that practically anyone in the North American biz for number of years eventually qualifies per PORNBIO as written today. And we haven't even touched on awards and performers from other continents, which I'm sure are currently underrepresented relative to the US-centric ones, e.g. Japanese Adult Video Awards has few blue links. Someone not using his real name (talk) 00:47, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
  • "With over 100 categories for the main industry awards AVN Award"...no one that I'm aware of has argued that all of those awards (same goes for the XBIZ, XRCO, FAME, etc. industry awards) are "well-known and significant industry awards". BTW, there are likely roughly the same number of current Oscar "Merit categories" (around two dozen or so) that probably qualify as well-known and significant industry awards as there are current AVN Award categories that qualify under the current PORNBIO standard. "the current non-consensus PORNBIO even allows for AVN-like nominations to impart notability". Consensus can certainly change, but the assertion of literally less than a handful of editors that consensus has changed on PORNBIO (to make it inapplicable now) is not what my understanding is of how consensus works on Misplaced Pages. Again, if PORNBIO were to magically disappear tomorrow, the ANYBIO wording ("The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for one several times") would apply to an even more broad spectrum (like "scene-related and ensemble categories") of adult award nominations. "I suspect that practically anyone in the North American biz for number of years eventually qualifies per PORNBIO as written today"...and you'd be wrong in that regard, but that's OK. Guy1890 (talk) 06:22, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
    • And that's the other half of the PORNBIO problem. The toxic combination is: (1) a low standard for inclusion that has led to many articles on quite unremarkable people; and (2) a wagon-circling, defensive approach towards any proposal to raise the standard.—S Marshall T/C 15:57, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
      • Right, because asking that Misplaced Pages standards be consistent from venue (AfD) to venue (DRV) and from guideline (ANYBIO) to guideline (PORNBIO) is "wagon-circling"...got it. When did I say that I was opposed to changing the wording of PORNBIO? Oh yea, it was never. Guy1890 (talk) 19:34, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
        • You seem to be missing the obvious that what constitutes a "well-known and significant award or honor" (in ANYBIO) is subject to editorial consensus. I would argue that "Orgasmic Oralist" (to pic an example at random) doesn't qualify. Someone not using his real name (talk) 20:30, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
          • "I would argue that 'Orgasmic Oralist' (to pic an example at random) doesn't qualify"...and I might even agree with you. Now show us an AfD or DRV where that award (or some other adult industry award of similar "significance") was the sole determination in recently keeping an article on Misplaced Pages.

When it comes to awards & nominations, PORNBIO currently is more restrictive in what is considered "a well-known and significant award" than ANYBIO. "Nominations and awards in scene-related and ensemble categories are excluded from consideration" & "For awards with multiple rounds of nominations such as the Fans of Adult Media and Entertainment Award, only final round nominations are considered" when it comes to PORNBIO. The idea that PORNBIO is somehow a "low-bar" guideline doesn't meet up with the facts of how current Misplaced Pages guidelines are stated & applied in practice. Guy1890 (talk) 20:47, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

This analysis is, I think, well off target. The language about final-round nominations is from a footnote, not the guideline proper, and reflects general practice with regard to awards -- "longlisting" is not treated as indicating notability, but shortlisting is (assuming the award meets the well-known/significant standard). Scene awards are pretty much sui generis for porn, generally not given in other fields (there are no "best chapter" awards for literary works); and, since AVN and other organizations classified them apart from "performer awards", some editors, myself included, argued they should not be treated as showing performer notability. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 20:56, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

• "The language about final-round nominations is from a footnote, not the guideline proper"...which is another distinction without a real difference. "Scene awards are pretty much sui generis for porn"...and without specific wording (which is currently in PORNBIO) excluding them from consideration, they very well could be considered under the ANYBIO guideline...that's the entire point here. The reality in the adult industry is that adult film perfomers (if they are not under some kind of long-term contract) are usually paid for their work on a per scene basis, which is different from more mainstream acting. Guy1890 (talk) 21:44, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

• Please stick to relevant points. If you're going to argue that PORNBIO's restriction of eligible nominations to shortlisting is unusually restrictive, please provide counterexamples to show that this isn't general practice. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 10:51, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

• "Please stick to relevant points"...and, once again, physician, heal thyself. Guy1890 (talk) 20:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I went on a small wikibreak because I was moving, and...wow, is this discussion really still going on? It doesn't look like a consensus to possibly reword WP:PORNBIO will be happening anytime soon, but...that does not mean PORNBIO should be ignored, no matter what some delete !voters say in AfDs (and interestingly, they never seem to want to say such a thing here). Erpert 05:57, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

• Editors are always free to ignore guidelines if they see fit.—S Marshall T/C 13:39, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

• Okay, then here's a non-pornography-related example...I don't like Bill O'Reilly. However, I would never nominate the article about him for deletion because he is a notable person...but I could nominate it if I ignored WP:N. Would ignoring that guideline be as I see fit? (If you don't think that's the same situation as this one, it definitely is; besides, you said "any guideline", not just WP:PORNBIO.) Erpert 07:00, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

• It appears that the consensus of the AFD was to delete the article that this was all about and that the consensus choose to disregard PORNBIO in favour of the GNG with flavours of V and BLP thrown in. That's interesting because it firmly suggests that DRV's approach to this kind of content is not at variance with wider consensus and that the outlier opinion is actually the one that argues that PORNBIO must take precedence over everything. I can't say I'm surprised but I do believe that we probably should now close this discussion, which has certainly be helpful in providing external scrutiny to the situation. Spartaz 14:47, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

• Right...so now we can ignore PORNBIO at both DRV and AfD...sounds "great"...ugh...what a complete & total joke this has become. Guy1890 (talk) 21:28, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

• One could argue that WP:PORNBIO exists only to protect articles in this area from a large number of editors who would rather see all of these articles deleted, notable or not. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:21, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

• One could argue that, but it's not the case. A significant number of porn performers meet the GNG. This has never been seriously disputed. The disputes have centered on the use of industry promotional mechanisms to claim notability while systematically failing to meet the GNG. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 11:22, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

• "The disputes have centered on the use of industry promotional mechanisms"...which are usually more generically called adult industry awards that are covered under the current PORNBIO standard...a standard that, again, is actually less inclusive than the current ANYBIO standard when it comes to awards. I mean really...it's not like you're going to see many adult film actors/actresses that are going to win something like a Nobel Prize. Again, the idea that a well-written Misplaced Pages article can somehow meet the PORNBIO standard and not the GNG standard is really a farce that's already been discussed at length elsewhere last month. Guy1890 (talk) 21:02, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Dear Guy please see WP:STICK. I think we get that you want to populate wikipedia with inadequately sources bios of living people. You made your views quite clear. Your problem is that with the exception of a very small cadre of likeminded editors far more editors disagree with you and the relisting and discussion here shows that actually the small minority beating a dead horse against community consensus is your side. Spartaz 21:07, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

• "I think we get that you want to populate wikipedia with inadequately sources bios of living people." When have I ever said that as well? Oh yea, it was never. What's more obvious to me is that there are a number of editors (and unfortunately some Misplaced Pages administrators as well) that have a clear anti-pornography bias. I honestly don't see how to currently fix that though. I do welcome (and have for a while now) a discussion on changing the PORNBIO standard. Guy1890 (talk) 21:33, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

• I'd be happy with just removing the reference to nominations. That would fix it. I don't think anyone seriously objects to the idea of winners of major awards being notable and the nominations are the only significant area of contention... Spartaz 22:08, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

• The title of this discussion (which I've agreed, for some time now, has gone on for much too long) is "DRV treatment of porn-related content". The forum for discussing how to change PORNBIO is here (and thanks for starting that discussion "Spartaz"...I mean it). For the sake of argument, let's say that PORNBIO was changed to remove any "reference to nominations"...would that allow you (since anyone that's chimed in here recently seems to agree that you "Spartaz" are one of the "main closers" at DRV) to give at least some deference to PORNBIO at DRV in the future? Guy1890 (talk) 23:38, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
  • I think it would be easy to overstate the degree is discretion I have as DRV closer as I can't interpret an outcome if that point of view isn't present in the discussion in the first place and it would be unacceptable if I were to close to a minority position unless there was a wider community consensus to refer to that decisively trumps a particular line of inquiry. In most cases I have a sense of what DRV expects even if that hasn't come out explicitly - hence I generally close to a more inclusionist bias favouring relists then I would if I were to close according to my personal views. I also think based on the strength of feeling that in future I probably shouldn't close PORNBIO type discussions unless the outcome is quite evident - but then if we leave the closing admin to random choice we are going to have less consistency of outcome in close discussions and that lack of certainty would probably lead to more controversy. That said, based on my experience at DRV and understanding of the place, I do think removing nominations as an inclusion criteria would go a long way to bring PORNBIO back into line with wider community expectations. I'm struggling to recall a clear example of someone who won an award being controversially deleted and this causing a fractious DRV. I'd be interested in seeing what the other DRV regulars think about this. Generally its DGG, S Marshall & Hobit sitting in the middle on these and I think their views would be the ones that if swayed would tip the balance. Spartaz 13:15, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

user talk:Kudpung#Deauxma (hatted). Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:36, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Request amendment of Lucia Black's topic/interaction ban

Hello all. I'd like to direct your attention to Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Ghost in the Shell 2, a new request for formal mediation by User:ChrisGualtieri. This is the dispute between him, User:Ryulong, and User:Lucia Black about how we cover the anime series Ghost in the Shell. Specifically, it is about whether we should have an article on the series as a whole, or whether that content should be merged into other related articles. As many readers of this board are probably aware, Lucia Black is topic-banned from "all articles related to WikiProject Anime, broadly construed", and is also subject to an interaction ban with ChrisGualtieri. Both sanctions are due to expire on November 1. As a prospective mediator of this case, I would like to see Lucia's topic and interaction bans amended to allow her to take part in the mediation.

I have been in touch with Lucia via email, and she is receptive to the idea of mediation. Ryulong has also agreed to take part, so the only obstacle now to the mediation proceeding is Lucia's sanctions. I don't think it would be very useful to leave Lucia out of any mediation proceedings, as any conclusion reached would fall apart when she was allowed back to the topic area in November. And if she participates, we may well be able to work out a resolution that satisfies everyone. So I see many positives and not many negatives from amending her bans. Would others here be willing to agree to this? — Mr. Stradivarius 15:04, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Also, I should remind everyone that Lucia is also topic-banned from WP:ANI. Given that this isn't (quite) ANI, and that this wasn't her starting a thread about somebody, but me starting a thread about her, I think it would be only fair to allow her to comment here if she wants. Let's go easy on the block button if she posts here. — Mr. Stradivarius 15:23, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Normally, I'd support such a thing, but she really hasn't been doing very well on this interaction ban so far. About a month in, she already appealed to have it removed, largely on the grounds that it was "unjust", which was unanimously rejected, and she's clearly being warned about breaking it here too. I'd like to see other's thoughts I guess... Sergecross73 msg me 15:35, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

• I don't see any reason not to allow this, provided it is abundantly clear to her that the exemption is for purposes of participating in mediation only and she is still to stay away from the actual content and related talk pages. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:26, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
• I am neutral about making the exception, but if it's supported, then perhaps it should specify participation on, and only on, a couple of named pages. Also, Lucia should be publicly warned (e.g., on her user talk page) that any behavior during that mediation that is even slightly undesirable will be given in evidence to get her topic ban lengthened, so that she understands the stakes for her behavior here, and everyone knows that she understands them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:14, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

  @WhatamIdoing: Actually, communications made in formal mediation can't be used as evidence in conduct dispute venues such as ANI or arbitration. Medcom has a policy of protecting this kind of communication so that parties are able to speak freely without worrying about it being used against them later. The reason for this is that disputes are usually a lot harder to resolve when the parties are trying to make themselves look good, or other parties look bad, with future discussions at ANI or Arbcom in mind. Taking this out of the equation lets the parties focus on the actual content rather than on each other. — Mr. Stradivarius 22:06, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. I have had little interaction with her. All recent and mostly bad faith on her part. If I had my way I would extend it to full en:wp block for a very long time. She just doesn't seem to interact very well with other editors and makes many disruptive edits.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:21, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support specific exception to the T-Ban and I-Ban to edit exclusively the Mediation discussion page. I understand MedCom has a history of functioning independently and if all parties involved in the mediation agree to these exceptions, I can see no harm. When bureaucracy gets in the way of progress and productive work, you know what to do. Lucia knows any unacceptable behaviour will not be ignored anyhow. I sincerely hope this won't cause more problems again. :) ·Salvidrim!· ✉ 05:22, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - Judging by all the ranting she's throwing on my talk page to me and people watching my talk page, over my above comments, I'm going to go ahead and say she's not really able to hold a rational discussion to editors in general, let alone someone she's got a history of not getting along with to the point of needing an interaction ban, on a topic she's topic banned from. I was intrigued by "WhatAmIDoing"'s idea, but since that was shot down as well, I just can't see these mediations going well. Sergecross73 msg me 16:45, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

  If the mediation doesn't go well, then that's that; we don't reach a consensus, and we continue with the status quo. However, if mediation does go well, then the dispute gets resolved, and the editors involved can go about their editing a little bit happier. The exception to Lucia's bans would only be for participating on mediation pages, so the change we are discussing wouldn't affect normal life on-wiki. The worst-case scenario is that the parties spend some time discussing the issues, and everything continues as it is now, which really doesn't seem too bad to me. Also, mediations are a lot more structured than talk-page interactions, or indeed most other interactions between editors on Misplaced Pages, so there is a lot less scope for editors to go off-topic or get on each others nerves. This is why I say that I can't see any bad things coming from this; the worst we can have is the status quo, and the best we can have is one less problem on Misplaced Pages. It seems worth a shot to me. — Mr. Stradivarius 09:50, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - Lucia Black has frequently violated her topic ban. The appropriate response to this is most certainly not to loosen up the restrictions. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:56, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
  • @serge.You already opposed serge, why bother making another oppose? What you could do is edit your own comment. There's a policy in mind for such things. and please keep you personal bias to yourself. If I'm having an argument in your talkpage, its because I'm tired of you interfering in everything ANI I bring up. I would like some fresh eyes when it comes to ANI. You have your own "personal" reasons. And it shows outside AN/ANI. What you think of me personally doesn't outweight the other aspects. For once in your life as an admin, actually start to see things more objectively when it comes to issues relating to me. Would any admin actually use an argument from an editor against them in something unrelated?
  • @lukeno94. Define "frequent"? I've edited template an american tv show neither officially considered anime nor manga. But warned because it could be "construed" as such. That's not violating the topic ban, that's pushing for the sake of enforcement. WP:ANIME doesn't have these american shows in its scope. And the reason why that matters is because of what the topic ban is even for. I've discussed about GAN stealing that related to a personal issue regarding the topic/interaction ban. "Frequent" is an exagerration. If it was "frequent" I would've been blocked.
  • You both bullied me enough in the last ANI. Can't you concentrate on real vandals? I know a dozen of editors who are much more incivil than me, the only difference is you are the only ones who interacted with me.Lucia Black (talk) 18:25, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

• Can you point me in the direction that policy that doesn't allow me to make 2 separate posts, one as a comment, and then one as an official "Oppose" comment? Then explain to me why it matters. Then explain to me why you're trying to enforce this, when 99% of the time you don't even indent your messages. (See this is why discussion with Lucia go so terribly so often. Its either this sort of nonsense, or bad faith accusations and misinterpretations of policies. This is why she gets these sorts of bans to begin with.) Sergecross73 msg me 20:26, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

• Lucia, although I can't remember the specifics, claiming you haven't violated the topic ban is simply false, and you know that full well. There have been multiple occasions, brought up at a recent ANI thread or two, where you were clearly found to have violated the topic ban, and the interaction ban; but you got away scot-free. You need to stop making personal attacks, and stop making false accusations of "bullying". The answer to this is simple: step back from all areas covered by your topic ban and your interaction ban, or you will end up blocked. That's not a threat, that's a policy-based fact. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:32, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

You are the one providing false information. i have only been brought up "once" in ANI since my interaction/topic ban, and from the same anonymous sockpuppet who just wants to cause trouble which was quickly closed. Other than that, being brought up in ANI "multiple" times is false. i have not gotten a single warning on my talkpage for such occasions. SO how can i accept what you said as true?.Lucia Black (talk) 22:38, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

• Support if and only if Chris G supports. NE Ent 18:04, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

  Chris has clarified this below, but actually he was the editor that requested the mediation, and he had already mentioned his desire for an exception to Lucia's topic/interaction bans on the mediation page. (I should probably have made that a little clearer in my summary above, sorry.) — Mr. Stradivarius 10:09, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Terrible idea. Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:52, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support, but only if ChrisGualtieri agrees as well, and only for the purposes of mediation. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 19:56, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
• I am going to say let her take part in the mediation and that page only. Also, Lucia Black has been blocked for 48 hours on Sept 5th for the topic and interaction ban violation. Though Lucia has once again violated her interaction ban by continuing to attack to me on Sergecross's page, but I rather not have her blocked and see what mediation can do to resolve the content problem, though I think she should be on a week or longer block if she violates the topic ban or interaction ban outside this explicit and narrow definition: "Mediation page(s) only". ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:43, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

  Thanks for clarifying this, Chris. A quick comment on "mediation page only" vs. "mediation pages only": I think the definition should be "Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Ghost in the Shell 2, Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for mediation/Ghost in the Shell 2, and any subpages of Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for mediation/Ghost in the Shell 2". That should give us plenty of room for discussions and/or drafts and still prevent the mediation from affecting other areas of Misplaced Pages. — Mr. Stradivarius 10:27, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

  • In that case as Mr. Stradivarius has pointed out. The "Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for Mediation" and all subpages like "Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for Mediation/Ghost in the Shell 2". This way we have wiggle room and the focus is WP:RFM sections only. I don't think we need to go and make it airtight legalese, but this scope is extremely narrow. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:55, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Under no set of circumstances have I seen this nucleus of editors ever interact positively. An interaction ban means exactly that, A topic ban means exactly that. It is my viewpoint that the conduct issues must be resolved prior to the content issues being resolved. I am open however to a 1 strike regime (1 warning, then a block for a second failure to observe normal wikipedia behavior) to allow LuciaBlack the opportunity to participate in this instance of a DR process. I encourage the mediators to keep a firm grasp on the behavior leashes as previous interactions and attempts at DR have been worthless, long ranging, no holds barred brawls to argue about every piece of contention and massive dumps of repeated arguments. Hasteur (talk) 15:48, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support because the ban expires in a month anyway, and we don't get in the way of MedCom, and ChrisGualteri, who at least some of the sanctions were to protect from misconduct, has agreed to it. However, I also think that the ban be lifted to only deal with the relevant mediation pages. John Carter (talk) 21:37, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support, because I think that mediation can only have a chance at working when all relevant parties are involved; the alternative, from a practical point of view, is simply to wait until November to start the mediation. I trust that Mr. Stradivarius will keep the mediation moving forward properly, and, if Lucia should get out of hand, will be summarily removed from the mediation anyway. Also, to clarify, like everyone including Mr. Stradivarius has said, this exemption would be only for the mediation pages, not any other pages including the article and talk pages that are the subject of the mediation. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:15, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support per User:Qwyrxian. I see no reason for mediation pages to be edited with parties involved. -
  

→Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 15:53, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

it would be great if a decision could be made soon. i'm already getting the mediation invite. and it's not like i'm going to be touching any other page other than mediation pages and obviously, it's mediation, so theres little room for incivility.Lucia Black (talk) 09:37, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Right now I'm seeing 7 !votes supporting unblock, 5 against. John Carter (talk) 00:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Lucia isn't blocked - I presume you mean that you see 7 !votes supporting an exception to her topic/interaction bans, and 5 against? — Mr. Stradivarius 11:29, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

• Support exception. Its the most intelligent approach, and allows for a real dialogue. Irondome (talk) 01:29, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support exception for MedCom only, as a believer in mediation. — TransporterMan (TALK) 18:46, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

• It doesn't look like this will get much more input, so could an uninvolved admin please close this thread? I'd rather not keep the participants waiting too much longer, so I think it would be best to have a decision one way or the other. — Mr. Stradivarius on tour 01:18, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

• FYI, ChrisG and Ryulong are at it again, arguing, and one has reported the other at ANI again. So, this isn't the only thing that's holding up mediation again. (These three are at each other's throats non-stop - I don't see how you could envision this mediation going well. You must have supreme confidence in the process or something...) Sergecross73 msg me 13:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

That is a characterization. I reverted Ryulong once, and Ryulong knew he'd break 3RR if he continued to edit war with Adam, yet did so anyways. After Ryulong broke 3RR he then filed for page protection. In the three days since someone else (not I) took him to ANI he has continued to abuse rollback, yell in all caps at other editors and give a hostile OWN issue, which while it may be the same issue of the mediation case, is not limited to a single page. At what point does an editor have to simply allow months of bad faith accusations to stand simply because a content matter is pending? I don't like Ryulong's constant cursing, reverting proper and good faith edits and constant edit warring and in the three days since half a dozen editors expressed concern he has gotten only worse. So I am at ANI to ask for 1RR for Ryulong for one month given the hundreds of problematic edits done not just at A&M, but all over Misplaced Pages. Ryulong's ArbCom case is even cited in ROLLBACK; so I don't think it is just "me" who has a problem with the actions. Ryulong may mean well, and I do thank him for fixing things, but to say we at "at each other's throats non-stop" certainly isn't accurate and I've been patient and restrained against the bad faith accusations repeatedly made against me. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:06, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

It wasn't meant as a judgment for or against you in your situation with him, merely a statement that arguing is happening both now and continually with varying combinations of the three of you. Sergecross73 msg me 14:45, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Ah okay, I misunderstood. Sorry, I haven't been that active since I've been very busy with work for awhile and I took it as if this matter is non-stop when there are significant breaks between issues and they are not even on the same subject or issue. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:17, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

@Sergecross73: That's right - we can't start mediation while the editors' behaviour is under discussion per point eight of the prerequisites for formal mediation ("No related dispute resolution proceedings are active in other Misplaced Pages forums"). If we did attempt mediation while the parties were at ANI, I think it's fair to assume that the parties would be too distracted by the proceedings there to concentrate on any content questions. If mediation does go ahead after the ANI thread (and if I was the mediator, which looks likely), I would ask the parties to agree not to post about each other at any admin noticeboards for its duration. If that agreement is broken, the mediation can be suspended or closed. — Mr. Stradivarius 22:04, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Current count now seems to be 9 in favor of lifting the restrictions for the purpose of mediation, and 5, at least some of whom may have made statements without the full details of the proposed limitations on editing to continue outside the mediation pages, opposing it. I can't close the thread myself, having expressed an opinion above, but I do think that it would probably be a good idea to allow participation in mediation, if it is to take place, sooner rather than later. John Carter (talk) 22:15, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support- this seems to be a sensible way to proceed. Reyk _YO! 00:38, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support exception for the MedCom only. I know nothing about anime & manga (in fact I had to look it up in Misplaced Pages a couple of years ago to find out what it is) but anywhere else I have come across Lucia I have found her TL;DR diatribes to be exasperating and obstinate to the point of disruptive. She clearly has a problem of collegial interaction and if allowed to participate on the MedCom case, she will have to keep calm or expect even stricter sanctions than she has been given already. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:08, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

  @Kudpung: Actually, we can't base any sanctions for Lucia on her behaviour in mediation. I've mentioned this above as well, but MedCom has a policy of protecting communications made in formal mediation so that they cannot be used to determine sanctions at ANI or ArbCom, etc. This is to remove the motivation for parties to "bait" each other during mediation with a view to getting sanctions enacted at a later date. — Mr. Stradivarius 09:05, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support exception I would love to see this long running dispute finally solved. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:02, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Hurricanefan25 unblock request procedural question

Hurricanefan25 (talk · contribs), also known as Perseus, Son of Zeus (talk · contribs), would like to request an unblock. But this is not an unblock request. Hurricanefan was blocked for socking after outing one of his own socks here. He went on to make some other socks, which got blocked, as late as last year: Category:Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Perseus, Son of Zeus. Hurricanefan has made offwiki appeals in the past that have been denied. He would like to know if appealing to the community is an option in this case. His last appeal was seven months ago, and his last sock was blocked over a year ago. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:48, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

As it is a checkuser block, I think you would need a checkuser to answer that definitively, but the only blocks that cannot be appealed here are WP:Office blocks, Arbcom Blocks, and if based on private evidence that would prevent a proper community discussion, Checkuser blocks. Monty₈₄₅ 02:00, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I think he's stuck with BASC. I can't speak for the entire community, but I can say that I can't conceive of a reason why anyone would entertain the notion of unblocking this editor. He's not just Perseus, Son of Zeus, he's carrying extra drawers of socks under multiple names like User:VickyLoveYou and User:Vicky870. His last sockpuppeting block was not over a year ago, it was on August 28. Complete waste of everyone's time.—Kww(talk) 02:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

The socks you listed are socks of IPhonehurricane95 (talk · contribs), a different sockmaster. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:07, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Yep. Got my hurricane-loving sockpuppeteers confused.—Kww(talk) 02:21, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Probably -- is there a link to last appeal discussion? NE Ent 02:50, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Previous appeals were made via email to arbcom. Should have been more specific about that. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:32, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Probably want to ping arbcom as well then, to make sure they haven't assumed the block under their own authority. Monty₈₄₅ 14:21, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Hurricanefan25 blocked, no US landfall hurricanes, coincidence? I jest, and am generally in favor of having content editors unblocked if they can be persuaded to follow the rules. Some of the hurricane articles in Misplaced Pages are among our best content, and Hurricanefan25 has contributed. That said, I'm nervous about what I do not know. If Arbcom refused an unblock request simply because it was unripe, I think it is time to reconsider. If there are other reasons, that might be a different issue.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 15:17, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

• This editor engaged in some very disturbing behavior while here, some of which had to be oversighted. I assume ArbCom is aware of the details, and I would be hesitant to say "unblock" without an explicit assurance from ArbCom that they don't see a problem with him editing again. 28bytes (talk) 15:39, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Sigh. I was hoping that wasn't the case. I concur, we need I want some assurance from Arbcom.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 17:15, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Um, since when does Arbcom have the right to tell the community that we may not agree to unblock someone? It's one thing to say "Arbcom disagrees with the unblock, so it's probably a bad idea", but another thing to say "Arbcom disagrees with the unblock , so we're not allowed to unblock". Nyttend (talk) 21:48, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Right, this is a request for ArbCom's advice, not their permission. Under the circumstances I would not want to proceed without their advice. 28bytes (talk) 22:34, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Left a note: Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee#Advice_requested NE Ent 00:01, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you NE. 28bytes (talk) 00:03, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

The answer to your question, Nyttend, is "since ArbCom became a quasi-governing body with authority over the English Misplaced Pages, including WMF-delegated authority to do things with real-world legal implications." As to whether such a state of affairs is desirable, that's for each person to decide themsevles. --108.38.191.162 (talk) 16:36, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry if my use of the word "need" led to that assumption. I've changed it to "I want"

• Some of the accounts, including Hurricanefan25, are globally locked. --Rschen7754 00:03, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
  • To be specific, he would need to appeal to stewards if he wants to keep the same account, as this account is globally locked, meaning that he is prevented from even logging in on any Wikimedia site by stewards. That would have to come before being unblocked on the English Misplaced Pages. --Rschen7754 03:11, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
• Hurricanefan's last appeal was denied in March. I can't really offer more specific thoughts without taking another look at his appeals; if another arb hasn't beaten me to it I'll try and respond again in a few hours. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 18:13, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
  • To follow up on the relevant question for which this section was started, policy on unblocking does specifically mention to consult with ArbCom and/or the blocking admin/checkuser in relevant situations; our own pages for WP:BASC and the arbitration policy don't go into such details, which perhaps means they should be harmonized. In practice, I can think of instances where appellants have successfully appealed a block to the community while it was on BASC's plate, and cases where we've declined an appeal on the basis that the community processes that lead to the ban were sound. I don't particularly think there is much in the way of mitigating or undisclosed factors that might have a bearing on a community discussion about an unblock--my own personal feelings are that the editor seems incapable of productive editing and seems to treat Misplaced Pages as a playground for fostering drama (threatening suicide, asking for his own socks to be blocked, et al.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 02:03, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

• • Aside from illegal actions and decisions that the Foundation declares to be against their official policies (e.g. sensible decisions on page creation), community consensus is the basis for all policies/guidelines/rules/etc. here. It's possible for a small group of editors to decide something that's not community consensus and therefore not required, but it's not possible for community consensus to be irrelevant except for what's illegal or against WMF policy. When we have a community decision that conflicts with Arbcom policy, the Arbcom policy must be revised, because they are not and may not be GovCom, unless the community decide to have a huge hierarchical overhaul. Nyttend (talk) 02:05, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Arbcom policy can be revised; the process for doing so is outlined on the policy page; however, the unblock request process is just that, a procedure rather than part of the policy, except to identify Arbcom as the block reviewer of last resort. Arbcom got stuck with the job around 2007 or 2008 because community unblock processes were....what's the word I'm looking for...fairly obviously biased in some cases. If the community was interested and willing to develop a process for "final chance" unblock request reviews for blocks initiated by an individual admin or by community consensus, that would be a huge weight off Arbcom, leaving us only with Arbcom and AE blocks to deal with. I doubt there is an arbitrator around who would object to a sound, fair community process; unblock requests consume a disproportionate amount of the committee's workload. Risker (talk) 04:55, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, I certainly didn't expect an arb to come out and say that the guy threatened suicide. But yes, that's what I was alluding to with my concerns about disturbing behavior. I think I will never get the hang of what things we're supposed to keep oversighted and what we can discuss freely on the drama boards... good thing I'm not an oversighter, I suppose. 28bytes (talk) 16:26, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Please move Talk:Music_of_the_SaGa_series#Collapsed_sections

I am not sure of the proper procedure for this, but can someone please move and/or close Talk:Music_of_the_SaGa_series#Collapsed_sections to Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Accessibility#Collapsing_music_track_lists? If not, please let me know what is the proper procedure. --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:41, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

• Post to prevent automatic archiving. --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:59, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
• Post to prevent automatic archiving. --Jax 0677 (talk) 23:28, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Unsalting needed

At Misplaced Pages:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Article_Incubator/Elena_Siegman, there seems to be a consensus to move the content to article space, but the article space name is salted. Could someone please unsalt Elena Siegman and make the move? Ten Pound Hammer • 19:07, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

It could just be me after a long day but I cannot see any page protection active? GiantSnowman 19:10, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Me neither; lots of deletions but no salt. Have you tried to move it yourself and gotten an error or something? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:18, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) I moved it, and am not an admin, so there was no salting in place... Technical 13 (talk) 19:23, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

I assume that TPH just forgot, but unsalting should have been requested over yonder. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 03:58, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Adding personal info

Can an admin take a look and revdelete this edit, as not only this is vandalism but includes personal information as well. Also, if edits like these happen in the future, where should I request further possible redactions if there is no revdelete request board? Minima© (talk) 12:59, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, that's gone. In future there's CAT:REVDEL, or you can email User:Oversight. -- zzuuzz 13:12, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, please see WP:RFO if you find anything like this that needs to be hidden from public view. Advertising it here just brings unwanted attention. Thanks ​—DoRD (talk)​ 14:14, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Unblock request

Could an admin please review the unblock request at User talk:Mitrabarun? The user was requested to show that they understand the copyright policies and explain them in their own words. The response has been posted now for over 24 hours and the user is hoping for a response. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:58, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Sometimes these hang around for a while, as each reviewing admin chooses not to accept but can't quite get to the point of explicitly rejecting. I can assure you that were I permitted to decline Mitrabarun's request, I would.—Kww(talk) 14:10, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Why, have you been sacked?Basket _Feudalist 14:53, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

He's the original blocker and is trying to avoid dealing with "INVOLVED" nonsense I'm assuming. Technical 13 (talk) 15:13, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Unblock requests should not be declined by the original blocker regardless of involvement -- although the original blocker is free to comment and express an opinion about whether the request should be accepted. Looie496 (talk) 15:48, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Yep, It's pretty hard to conceive of a situation where the exceptions listed at WP:INVOLVED would apply to an unblock request.—Kww(talk) 16:23, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

In all fairness, it doesn't hurt for the blocking admin to check back, since you might always decide "Okay, he can be unblocked"; it would be absurd to complain on WP:INVOLVED grounds when the blocking admin reversed himself. Of course I understand that's not going to happen here. Nyttend (talk) 21:31, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

The "involved" problem comes when an admin denies an appeal of his own block: it's effectively depriving the user of the right to have is block reviewed by an uninvolved admin.—Kww(talk) 22:45, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Completely agreed; it's just that I've at least once seen somebody say (can't remember precisely where) that a blocking admin shouldn't respond in any way to an unblock request, so I wanted to attempt to dispel such an idea. Nyttend (talk) 01:53, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually, a block is a purely administrative action, and thus does not ordinarily make the blocker WP:INVOLVED. I think the community still expects the blocking admin to not decline the unblock unless the unlock is blatantly bad faith, but as far as I know, its an unwritten rule, not a policy. Monty₈₄₅ 02:01, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

It certainly doesn't make the admin involved for future dealings, but "since the purpose of an unblock request is to obtain review from a third party, the blocking administrators should not decline unblock requests from users they have blocked" is, indeed, policy.—Kww(talk) 02:14, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

• Mitrabarun's need for speed will probably be their undoing, and is probably what led to their block in the first palce. Patience is a virtue and all that jazz. It's never a wise idea to ping the admin noticeboards on things like these - if the admins who patrol RFUB haven't acted on it, the the odds are extremely high that it will be declined as "no consensus to unblock" ES&L 14:40, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
• (Non-administrator comment) I would decline his current request too as it stands. He hasn't really done "any" of the requirements that were pointed out to him, and I've left him a message that hopefully he will pay attention to in regards to that. Technical 13 (talk) 15:13, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:Archive.rs RFC

It's been pointed out that the RFC that I should probably make certain that Wikimedia is aware of this problem because they may choose to make a global change. It's certainly true that the proxies that have been abusing us have been abusing all the various language versions. Can someone point me at the appropriate venue?—Kww(talk) 15:43, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations back log

We have a big back log at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations with some as far back as September 12th with no progress. -- Moxy (talk) 17:49, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

We certainly do need more admins patrolling SPI reports. There are 36 outstanding reports that have not called for (or are ineligible) for Checkuser that any willing admin could handle. --Jezebel'sPonyo 18:17, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Gross Misrepresentations in the Article State of Florida v. George Zimmerman

No comment on the value of this or otherwise; just moving it from the Talk page, where it didn't belong. Cheers, Lindsay 05:49, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
I would like to inform you that in the article "State of Florida v. George Zimmerman" there are blatant and misleading differences in the depiction of the Defense's and Prosecution's pathologist testimonies:

In this sectionhttps://en.wikipedia.org/State_of_Florida_v._George_Zimmerman#Expert_witness_testimony_2there's ample description of the Defense's version,

while in this sectionhttps://en.wikipedia.org/State_of_Florida_v._George_Zimmerman#Expert_witness_testimony the Prosecution's version regarding pathology is entirely concealed (which can be found here:http://www.businessinsider.com/valerie-raos-george-zimmerman-testimony-2013-7

Several other users have already complained that any edits that cast a remotely bad light on Zimmerman are generally reverted by a minor fraction that has seized control over the article and given such a gross lopside in depiction, an edit-war is probable for whoever is trying to add the needed facts, so I wanted to inform the Administrators' noticeboard prior to someone being engaged in such a war.Commissioner Gregor (talk) 03:33, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

If someone of you Admins has time to spare, he may well search through the version histories of the articles related to Zimmerman and sort out the black sheep who are reverting any constructive edits and whose behaviour has led to such one-sided depictions:

•https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=State_of_Florida_v._George_Zimmerman&action=history •https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=George_Zimmerman&action=history •https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin&action=history •https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Trayvon_Martin&action=history (Interesting that this is the only article with issues like questioned neutrality, might also look up whether in the above articles, tags were unjustifiedly deleted?...)--Commissioner Gregor(talk) 03:56, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

AN is not the place for content disputes. WP:DRN is. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:53, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

As mentioned above, WP:DRN is thataway. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:58, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:AfD backlogged

We have open nominations for every day since last Thursday, and there are some day with many nominations. If you have time please consider closing a couple of nominations.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:45, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

And non-admins can help by participating in discussions, as well. Part of the problem is when consensus isn't clear, closers are hesitant to make a difficult call. Mark Arsten (talk) 04:05, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Silver Lake Village (Michigan) (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Is there a reason that this AFD, open for eleven days, has not yet been closed? Ten Pound Hammer • 05:26, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, the reason can be found in the thread just above this one you created. :) · Salvidrim! · ✉ 06:15, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

User who seemingly only exists to suck people into a weird maze of pages. Is this actionalble?

So I got a notification that Adeptzaire2 thanked me for an edit. That led me to User:Adeptzaire/አብ from the account Adeptzaire. From there, I kept getting bounced from poorly written page with odd links to poorly written page with odd links. Looking through the edit history, apparently all this person has done with their two accounts is set up an elaborate circular maze of userpages. I do believe in AGF, but in this case I think someone is trolling. Is this actionable? At the very least he's created a farm of useless pages that should all be deleted and is not using alternate accounts constructively. Possibly, it's this is a pair of accounts that exist as a joke and aren't here to productively edit, a block would be warranted. Sven Manguard Wha? 06:08, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

• MfD might be an option. Reyk _YO! 06:10, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Forgot to link to this in the initial post, see Special:Contributions/Adeptzaire2 for evidence. Sven Manguard Wha? 06:11, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
• (edit conflict)To suggest deletion of userpages, please see WP:MFD. I'm too confused and lost to come up with better advice. :) · Salvidrim! · ✉ 06:15, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards
• Administrative backlog