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(Initiated 27 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

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(Initiated 55 days ago on 15 November 2024) Clear consensus that the proposed edit (and its amended version) violate WP:SYNTH. However, the owning editor is engaging in sealioning behavior, repeatedly arguing against the consensus and dismissing others' rationale as not fitting his personal definition of synthesis; and is persistently assuming bad-faith, including opening an ANI accusing another editor of WP:STONEWALLING. When finally challenged to give a direct quote from the source that supports the proposed edit, it was dismissed with "I provided the source, read it yourself" and then further accused that editor with bad-faith. The discussion is being driven into a ground by an editor who does not (nor wish to) understand consensus and can't be satisfied with any opposing argument supported by Misplaced Pages policy or guidelines. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 22:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

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(Initiated 48 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

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(Initiated 107 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

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(Initiated 64 days ago on 7 November 2024) Looking for uninvolved close in CTOP please, only a few !votes in past month. I realise this doesn't require closing, but it is preferred in such case due to controversial nature of topic. CNC (talk) 10:44, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Note: I'm happy to perform the merge if required, as have summarised other sections of this article already with consensus. I realise it's usually expected to perform splits or merges when closing discussions, but in this case it wouldn't be needed. CNC (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

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DRV treatment of porn-related content

This thread was severed from a "Harassment from an admin" thread to discuss whether DRV is being unfair on porn-related content -- Jreferee (talk) 15:39, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Well now. What's this open can doing here, and why are there worms wriggling around all over the place?

I think the first issue here is that Erpert, Rebecca1990 and other members active in WikiProject Pornography are not getting satisfaction from DRV. That's a major issue from my point of view. DRV is the end of the line: there's no appeal from a DRV. Therefore users have to have confidence that the process is fair. It's essential: this is an editor retention issue.

Now, there are a very small number of users who regularly attend DRV, and Spartaz is at present the main closer, so if you clash with the DRV regulars in general or with Spartaz in particular, there's not much chance of getting any input from others. So for this kind of situation, where it's alleged that the main DRV closer and/or DRV regulars are showing bias, the only fair answer we have is for previously uninvolved editors to review DRV's recent discussions and Spartaz' closes, and decide for themselves to what extent the accusations of bias are well-founded.

This pretty much has to happen. As soon as it's alleged that this small number of users is biased, our formal processes come to a crunching halt: they just don't allow for that possibility. Therefore we're left with the default Misplaced Pages way, which is for independent, unbiased editors to read, comprehend, think, evaluate, and comment. It's really important that this is happens. Even though I'm a DRV regular and I think we're doing things right and that Erpert's complaint is unfounded, I'd nevertheless encourage anyone reading this discussion please to look closely at DRV's recent decisions and weigh in with their view.

I think the second issue is that DRV takes, and has taken for some time, a very dim view of PORNBIO, and to a lesser extent most other SNGs. We see the GNG as the arbiter of what should be included and will happily overrule SNGs if there's conflict. This is surprising for some editors who have a basic expectation that their WikiProject's favourite SNG will prevail.

In this particular case a further issue is that at least some of us (including me) openly question the reliability/independence of AVN and XBIZ as sources. This questioning is extremely corrosive for WikiProject Pornography, because if AVN and XBIZ aren't reliable/independent sources, then what valid sources do exist for porn articles? If consensus moves in that direction and we do collectively decide to eliminate those sources, then a really high percentage of our pornstar articles are headed for the dustbin.

As a third issue, and this might just be me, I've also wondered whether BLP applies to pornstar articles. For example, is it best to treat that Deuxma article as a BLP? Or is it best treated as an article about a fictional character portrayed by a nameless porn performer? This seems important to me because it helps us decide where the bar for a pornstar article should be.—S Marshall T/C 10:51, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

• About AVN and XBIZ, IMO AVN is pretty more "journalistic" than XBIZ, second I distinguish between the printed magazines and the websites, the websites are actually 85% made of press releases while at least AVN Magazine in its printed form is 85% made of original content including feature length articles, insights, biographical portraits, reviews, interviews, editorials and opinion pieces. XBIZ publishes several magazines, but the ones I checked were very poor of original contents. About BLP Vs. fictional characters, I think it is a mixture of the two things, like for wrestlers or even artists like Lady Gaga, it is an editor's duty to weigh the elements that belong to the one or to the other, eg statements by pornstars who say they are nymphomaniacs, swingers and/or bisexuals should be, in general terms, almost always kept out from the articles. Cavarrone 12:52, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

• It would be hugely helpful if we could somehow draw a clear line between parts of AVN and XBIZ that are or are not reliable. Is there an easy way to distinguish press releases that have been (at most) minimally changed from actual articles? Hobit (talk) 17:23, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

• What I said above. Short articles published by AVN/XBIZ in the section "company-news" or marked as "company press" are very likely to be press releases. On the other hand, the printed AVN magazine includes some easily identificable "secondary" journalism (reliable is not the correct word, as a primary source is not automatically unreliable), eg. the 6-pages-article used as a source in Fashionistas, the 10 or 12 pages article about female porn published this month, the columns by Clyde DeWitt, the "editorial desk" column or the yearly June special issue named "The Fresh Issue" are exemples of valid journalism. A different question is if they are sufficient for a claim of meeting GNG, but frankly I have no record of discussions in which anyone claimed a subject passing general notability on the sole basis of his/her AVN/XbiZ coverage, we are generally extra-cautious about that. Cavarrone 21:11, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

If we're having a real conflict between GNG and SNG (rather than just SNG providing specific guidance or recommendations for how the genre sees itself), that's more signifiant and needs to be resolved first. Otherwise we'll forever be having different DR mechanisms picking whichever one suits each editor's preference. That's no less arbitrary than just scrapping the whole process altogether and relying on individuals to edit-war on each article itself. Or if we generally give deference to "keep" (AfD process requires consensus to delete, vs lack-of-consensus for a del-nom leaves an article existing). Get Misplaced Pages talk:Notability to put their own house in order. DMacks (talk) 15:50, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

• As one of the DRV regulars who generally leans toward inclusion and has no problem with porn coverage, I do feel that there is a significant problem here. Partly there is badgering on the part of Erpert. Partly there are editors that I would say show up to porn bio discussions with a clear leaning toward deletion. But mostly because of WP:PORNBIO. It does seem to create a SNG where folks are generally notable even though they really have no chance of meeting WP:N if you ignore press releases and reprints of press releases. One could argue that's because mainstream news doesn't really cover these folks, so there is a cultural bias that the SNG addresses. But one could also argue that these just aren't notable folks and in any case we shouldn't be writing articles based on press releases. That fundamental issue needs to be resolved. And I think it can be resolved if we work hard to identify actual reliable sources in the field and find a way to narrow the list of awards that we consider in the SNG. Put another way, personalities are in part to blame here, but mostly its a policy problem. And S Marshall notes, that's solveable by getting a wider range of folks involved in getting these issues (RSes for porn, awards that make one notable) resolved. Hobit (talk) 17:23, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
  • It is worth noting that, since the beginning of 2011, DRV has not (per the Wikiproject Pornography deletion list) reversed the outcome of a single porn performer AFD. What the trio of editors is actually complaining about is that DRV is supporting the consensus established at AFD, which they oppose. As Spartaz noted before being driven into a wikibreak, DRV was generally more emphatic about GNG failure overriding a technical pass of PORNBIO language, but it was reinforcing the AFD consensus, not overturning it. It's also worth noting that the objections to DRV don't come from project members as a group, but from three editors who have joined it relatively recently and dismiss previous discussions. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 15:55, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
    • It's pretty obvious that this "trio of editors" consists of Rebecca1990, Guy1890 and me, but if you were paying attention, HW, you would notice that I clearly stated that I am not even a member of WikiProject Pornography. Anyway, you can't use the "dismissing previous discussions" argument because an uninvolved editor (finally!) split this thread. And Equaczion and Guy1890 made a good point a few days ago: about the applicability of WP:PORNBIO apparently working differently in AfD than it does in DRV. Why would the same guideline work differently in different venues? Erpert 18:09, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
      • I was not aware of the apparent fact that DRV is not frequented by a large number of editors or closed by a large number of Misplaced Pages administrators. That could very well explain why "since the beginning of 2011, DRV has not (per the Wikiproject Pornography deletion list) reversed the outcome of a single porn performer AFD."
      • "What the trio of editors is actually complaining about is that DRV is supporting the consensus established at AFD, which they oppose." No, that's not what I am saying at all. I've never brought a single article to DRV while on Misplaced Pages, and, if I've learned anything at all about what happens at DRV, it's that DRV is not a "do-over" of a particular AfD. "DRV was generally more emphatic about GNG failure overriding a technical pass of PORNBIO language"...look, all I have said above is that we need consistent standards. Tell me what the standards (that apply to both AfD & DRV) are for whether or not we can have a pornography-related article on Misplaced Pages, and I'll try & live by them the best that I can. Don't change the game when we go from AfD to DRV and don't pretend like there aren't some editors out there that have an axe to grind when it comes to pornography-related articles. "It's also worth noting that the objections to DRV don't come from project members as a group"...I've actually noticed that the Pornography Project does not seem to operate in a "team environment". There don't appear to be that many truly active members, and I don't see much cross-colaboration unfortunately. "and dismiss previous discussions"...which, again, you never seem to actually refer to Mr. Wolfowitz. There is unfortunately a lot of, IMHO, unsubstaniated opinion tossed around in AfD & DRV pornography-related discussions (from the delete at pretty much all costs POV) without much else backing them up. Guy1890 (talk) 21:00, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
• Like S Marshall, I'm a regular at DRV. Like him, I usually agree with the decisions there on this subject, and greatly respect Spartaz's closes. I do not necessarily agree with the decisions, but that's when I disagree with the consensus. The reason I and other regulars tend to let him do most of the closes is very simple: he does it best. Consensus at DRV is much more complicated that at AfD , because it involves determining several layers of possibilities: not whether an article should be kept, but whether we should argue the question of whether an article should be kept, and what is likely to happen if we do, and what an article will become in the future. Everyone has a different idea of what considerations to treat as more important: the interpretation of WP guidelines is , after all, whatever we want it to be, and the relationship between them is usually what we want to make it.

If you hang around there or AfD, you'll know that I in general differ from the current consensus about using GNG: I would apply it only when there is no plausible alternative. If we were drifting to use it more , it would be a direction I would deplore, but I don't think we are--it varies with different subjects: It varies because we interpret it according to the result we want to get. The reason I disagree with relying on it is indicated by the discussion above; the actual decisions in anything but the obvious depend upon the exact interpretation we want to make of the 3 key words "reliable", "substantial", and "independent". For any closely disputed article, I could interpret them in any direction. Which direction I choose depends upon what I think reasonable and in accordance with the purposes of Misplaced Pages. From what I've seen, even those who claim to take them as precise words and follow the GNG literally decide the hard cases just the way I do, whether or not they realize it. This is specially true of the relationship between the GNG and the SNGs. There is no fixed relationship: In some cases, like WP:PROF, the SNG is explicitly accepted as an alternative. In others, it seems to be accepted as a limitation. In some, it seems to be accepted in practice as the only guideline, though we've usually found some way of wording things to pretend it follows the GNG also.

For Pornobio, the question is what the community wants to do. Ultimately, the consistent trend of decisions at AfD makes the practical rule, and when there is a consistent trend , the general practice at Del Rev is very conservative, as befits an appeal process: we endorse it. What we overturn are decisions we think aberrant or unreasonable. None of the regulars there uses Del Rev to change or defy consensus--even consensus we individually dislike, though we may use the occasion of a dispute there to enter a protest. The reason for the conflict about it is that the community is apparently divided in what it wants to do. As I interpret it, the community is moving consistently towards a narrower interpretation of notability there. If it is, the results will inevitably show it.

And , as with most WP processes, the way to make Del Rev better is for more people to come there, and discussion other issues than the ones they are personally interested in DGG ( talk ) 02:43, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

The only times I ever see porn-related articles at DRV at all is when a user wants to re-create a deleted article and the deleting admin has reservations about it...but then the admin suggests that the matter be taken to DRV (recently, it has happened with Sabrina Deep and Elexis Monroe). Erpert 08:13, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

So what this boils down to is that a small number of users reject the consensus interpretation of PORNBIO, supported by consensus at AFD and DRV, regularly personalize the relevant discussions, continuously press their own relaxed interpretations, which are incompatible with the GNG (the only demonstrated inconsistency raised in the current discussions), and ignore the extensive discussions and the outcome of the relevant RFC(s) from the WP:PEOPLE talk page in 2011 and 2012. The community is divided and the details of PORNBIO, on points I identified here , but the trio of editors pressing these discussions rejects the consensus achieved on other issues, which has been persistently, and pretty consistently, applied at AFD and DRV. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 11:35, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

• Well, hang on, HW. I'm personally responsible for this particular subsection of AN. (Actually Jreferee created it, but he did so in response to my concern.) What I hope it'll "boil down to" is a sanity-check on DRV's recent porn-related decisions, in which previously uninvolved editors give us a bit of welcome scrutiny. If we're going a bit wrong then they'll set us back on the right track. If we're doing things right, then the problem is with WP:PORNBIO and we'll probably end up with another RFC about it.—S Marshall T/C 13:20, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

• HW, I'm not exactly sure what you want here. This is actually the most objective discussion I personally have seen about the situation because as I stated before, uninvolved individuals are making comments. It seems like you have a problem with that, so rather than the "trio of editors" (you really have to stop saying that; this isn't a battle) rejecting consensus, you actually seem to be rejecting outside viewpoints that might disagree with how you personally feel. Also, if the community is divided as you say, that means a consensus hasn't been met, doesn't it? I even clarified in a previous discussion that when a consensus hasn't been made about what to do with an established guideline, the guideline is kept, not deleted. (I welcomed anyone to present evidence of the latter happening and no one did.) Erpert 17:51, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
• "a small number of users reject the consensus interpretation of PORNBIO, supported by consensus at AFD and DRV"...where we apparently apply PORNBIO at AfD and basically ignore PORNBIO at DRV. I can understand how this current situation might satisfy those that might like to see less coverage of pornography-related content on Misplaced Pages, but, as I've stated several times already, I don't see how this status quo is especially fair or reasonable. If PORNBIO is actually the problem & needs to be changed, then so be it.

"which are incompatible with the GNG"...I've already addressed "concerns" of how meeting PORNBIO does somehow "not" meet GNG in this discussion here on September 13th. There's no need to re-hash that here now. I would also say that I basically agree with what was said recently above about GNG: "It varies because we interpret it according to the result we want to get." If that's really what's going on at DRV with respect to GNG, then that also doesn't seem especially fair or reasonable as well IMO.

"and ignore the extensive discussions and the outcome of the relevant RFC(s) from the WP:PEOPLE talk page in 2011 and 2012"...which, once agin, you never seem to link to to back up your arguments here (or pretty much anywhere else for that matter). An American President, that I actually voted for, appropriated the phrase "trust, but verify", which I think very much applies here. Guy1890 (talk) 21:14, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

You're obviously not here to participate in any sort of rational discussion. Which part of "the WP:PEOPLE talk page" could possibly be unclear to you? Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 02:41, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

"You're obviously not here to participate in any sort of rational discussion." Physician, heal thyself. Guy1890 (talk) 03:57, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

HW, you really need to just accept the fact that people are being more objective to the situation this time around (you're the only one who doesn't seem to be). If you can't, maybe it would be best if you just recused yourself from the discussion (or even the subject). Erpert 08:42, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

And, once again, Erpert, you're improperly personalizing the discussion and casting aspersions on an editor who disagrees with you. Why don't you reply to the question I raised: Which part of "the WP:PEOPLE talk page" could possibly be unclear? Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 12:23, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, not taking the bait. Erpert 17:59, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

• The reality is that there really isn't any "bait" to be taken here, since the vaguely-referenced discussions above (from 1-2 years ago...which I've read through BTW) have virtually nothing to do with the topic of this thread ("DRV treatment of porn-related content"), since those discussions barely mention DRV at all. Consensus is not defined as one person continually making a claim that isn't substantiated by the community as a whole. For instance, various editors continually dismissing PORNBIO as an "invalid" guideline merely by re-stating one's only sole opinion isn't the way that I understand consensus to work here on Misplaced Pages. In any event, dismissing PORNBIO doesn't negate the basic & inconvenient fact that ANYBIO & ENTERTAINER are extremely similarly-worded to PORNBIO. In fact, one could even argue that those other guidelines are more expansive than PORNBIO's current (which again, I'm not married to) wording. Guy1890 (talk) 22:52, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
  • One other thing I've noticed lately (well, not lately, but other editors are starting to notice too) is that there are some users who seem to want to delete pornography-related articles and WP:PORNBIO, but instead of commenting here like they should (and have been advised to do), they just clog up AfDs about porn and thus push everything off track. More than that, the rationales they have are inaccurate, and I suggest simple methods for them to justify their claims...with no results.

1. I stated that a "no consenus" result for the validity of PORNBIO (in this case) defaults to "keep" rather than "delete", and it was argued that that meant that the guideline wasn't a guideline after all. I asked for proof of that ever occurring; nothing.
2. It was argued that consensus showed that MILF/Cougar Performer of the Year isn't a valid award category, and I asked for a link to that consensus; nothing.

Basically, if you're going to argue something, at least be able to prove your claims. And repeating the same unsubstantiated claim several times won't make it true. Erpert 09:16, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

• WP:PORNBIO is an odd duck. I ran a couple of RfC's on it a couple years back (to reform it, not delete it). It was clear that practically nobody liked WP:PORNBIO, but because of all the myriad ways to reform it and various subdiscussions over details (or perhaps because the RfC's themselves were poorly formed and run) nothing happened. The result is pretty much as expected: since WP:PORNBIO is ridiculous and an outlier from our usual notability standards, it's mostly ignored. That's what happens when you try to make to rules that force the community to do things it doesn't want to rather than codify accepted practice. You can push the community to some extent by crafting and pushing through a rule, but only to some extent. Sorry. What people unhappy with that need to do is instead advance the proposition "We ought to have an exception to our normal notability and sourcing requirements and include an article on, basically, everyone who's appeared in a porn film, and this would enhance the Misplaced Pages because ___________", and you fill in the blank with cogent and compelling arguments such that people go "Oh, yeah, of course!" That's where you need to direct your energies, I think, and good luck. Herostratus (talk) 01:00, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
  • "'We ought to have an exception to our normal notability and sourcing requirements and include an article on, basically, everyone who's appeared in a porn film". I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. No one that I can tell is asking for any kind of special exception to anything or that every single actor/actress from any genre have an article on Misplaced Pages. If PORNBIO really "is ridiculous and an outlier from our usual notability standards", then why are ANYBIO & ENTERTAINER so similarly-worded? This entire thread is going nowhere. Guy1890 (talk) 04:05, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

• On the contrary, I think that with contributions from people who aren't DRV regulars it's finally started to go somewhere. I agree with Herostratus' analysis of PORNBIO and its history.—S Marshall T/C 11:48, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

• One thing that needs to be remembered is that there are some areas, such as porn and, by my observation, webcomics, where WP:GNG fails as "traditional media" makes a point of not giving significant coverage, in the former case because of 'morals' and in the latter case because of a 'it's not real media' attitude; in the latter case, this ends up with some of the most significant, and well-known, webcomics getting rung up at AfD (and deleted) for "lack of notability" when the problem is a - deliberate - lack of coverage; I'm quite sure the former applies to entertainers who fall under WP:PORNBIO. Now, that's not to say the gates need to be open willy-nilly, but it does mean that we need to remember it's the General Notability Guideline and not words carved in stone handed down from Mount Ararat. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:09, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Another thing that needs to be remembered is that it's not simply the GNG brought into play, but fundamental BLP concerns as well. Part and parcel of the underlying dispute is the repeated effort to write BLPs without reliably sourced information. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 11:10, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

• One of the things we need to decide is whether porn performers' articles really are BLPs. I put it to you that they're fictional characters portrayed by performers (and, yes, so is Lady Gaga).—S Marshall T/C 11:48, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

• There are some performer personas that are purely fictive (see, eg, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Denise Milani (model), an uncontroversial case that somehow led Wikipediocracy to single me out for castigation). but most at least purport to mix genuine biographical elements with promotional claptrap, and are, as Jimbo Wales commented a while ago, mostly kayfabe. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 12:21, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

• • • I'm honestly a bit bothered by the claims of BLP concerns. In part that's because I don't think we should be censoring well-source information that we have every reason to believe to be accurate. So associating something with their profession isn't, ever (IMO) a BLP concern. Secondly, I believe it is insulting to people who work in this field to make such arguments. I'm not going to get into the Feminist theories on porn (though I was surprised to see we have a decent article on the topic ), but I'll simply note that there are certainly folks who are not embarrassed by their work. So basically, I don't think BLP plays a role when we are confirming a well documented fact about someone being a pornographic performer. If their real name isn't generally associated with their acting, we should certainly not do so (for all kinds of reasons). Hobit (talk) 18:22, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
• I feel like WP:PORNBIO is as disliked as WP:NFOOTY, and is in a similar boat; most people want it changed, but no one can agree how to make that change. If Spartaz has regularly closed DRVs on this subject in line with consensus, then they cannot be blamed for any issues with that consensus. What I think should happen is that the relevant WikiProject for this subject draws up a list of "reliable pornographic sources", specifying the reliable sections of them as well. If this happens, then editors external to the project will be able to fully assess whether a performer is notable or not. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:47, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
  • "the relevant WikiProject for this subject draws up a list of 'reliable pornographic sources', specifying the reliable sections of them as well." To a certain extent, this has already been done, but some editors don't seem to want to respect what is written there. Again, I'm not married to the exact wording that's currently in these links either. Guy1890 (talk) 21:04, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
    • Those lists are rather ancient, and haven't been compliant with WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:BLP for years. They date back to a time when the same Wikiproject supported use of nonfree images of living persons, a clear breach of content policy. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 12:30, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
• I think the main source of contention is the WP:PORNBIO guideline. With over 100 categories for the main industry awards AVN Award, it's easy to see how editors outside the biz see this as little more than spam and promotion. Compare to the number of Oscar categories. Also, the current non-consensus PORNBIO even allows for AVN-like nominations to impart notability, of which there are several hundred per year if you add the XBIZ Awards (just look at the toc there). And there's also the FAME Awards and the XRCO Award, also pretty prolific. I suspect that practically anyone in the North American biz for number of years eventually qualifies per PORNBIO as written today. And we haven't even touched on awards and performers from other continents, which I'm sure are currently underrepresented relative to the US-centric ones, e.g. Japanese Adult Video Awards has few blue links. Someone not using his real name (talk) 00:47, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
  • "With over 100 categories for the main industry awards AVN Award"...no one that I'm aware of has argued that all of those awards (same goes for the XBIZ, XRCO, FAME, etc. industry awards) are "well-known and significant industry awards". BTW, there are likely roughly the same number of current Oscar "Merit categories" (around two dozen or so) that probably qualify as well-known and significant industry awards as there are current AVN Award categories that qualify under the current PORNBIO standard. "the current non-consensus PORNBIO even allows for AVN-like nominations to impart notability". Consensus can certainly change, but the assertion of literally less than a handful of editors that consensus has changed on PORNBIO (to make it inapplicable now) is not what my understanding is of how consensus works on Misplaced Pages. Again, if PORNBIO were to magically disappear tomorrow, the ANYBIO wording ("The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for one several times") would apply to an even more broad spectrum (like "scene-related and ensemble categories") of adult award nominations. "I suspect that practically anyone in the North American biz for number of years eventually qualifies per PORNBIO as written today"...and you'd be wrong in that regard, but that's OK. Guy1890 (talk) 06:22, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
    • And that's the other half of the PORNBIO problem. The toxic combination is: (1) a low standard for inclusion that has led to many articles on quite unremarkable people; and (2) a wagon-circling, defensive approach towards any proposal to raise the standard.—S Marshall T/C 15:57, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
      • Right, because asking that Misplaced Pages standards be consistent from venue (AfD) to venue (DRV) and from guideline (ANYBIO) to guideline (PORNBIO) is "wagon-circling"...got it. When did I say that I was opposed to changing the wording of PORNBIO? Oh yea, it was never. Guy1890 (talk) 19:34, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
        • You seem to be missing the obvious that what constitutes a "well-known and significant award or honor" (in ANYBIO) is subject to editorial consensus. I would argue that "Orgasmic Oralist" (to pic an example at random) doesn't qualify. Someone not using his real name (talk) 20:30, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
          • "I would argue that 'Orgasmic Oralist' (to pic an example at random) doesn't qualify"...and I might even agree with you. Now show us an AfD or DRV where that award (or some other adult industry award of similar "significance") was the sole determination in recently keeping an article on Misplaced Pages.

When it comes to awards & nominations, PORNBIO currently is more restrictive in what is considered "a well-known and significant award" than ANYBIO. "Nominations and awards in scene-related and ensemble categories are excluded from consideration" & "For awards with multiple rounds of nominations such as the Fans of Adult Media and Entertainment Award, only final round nominations are considered" when it comes to PORNBIO. The idea that PORNBIO is somehow a "low-bar" guideline doesn't meet up with the facts of how current Misplaced Pages guidelines are stated & applied in practice. Guy1890 (talk) 20:47, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

This analysis is, I think, well off target. The language about final-round nominations is from a footnote, not the guideline proper, and reflects general practice with regard to awards -- "longlisting" is not treated as indicating notability, but shortlisting is (assuming the award meets the well-known/significant standard). Scene awards are pretty much sui generis for porn, generally not given in other fields (there are no "best chapter" awards for literary works); and, since AVN and other organizations classified them apart from "performer awards", some editors, myself included, argued they should not be treated as showing performer notability. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 20:56, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

• "The language about final-round nominations is from a footnote, not the guideline proper"...which is another distinction without a real difference. "Scene awards are pretty much sui generis for porn"...and without specific wording (which is currently in PORNBIO) excluding them from consideration, they very well could be considered under the ANYBIO guideline...that's the entire point here. The reality in the adult industry is that adult film perfomers (if they are not under some kind of long-term contract) are usually paid for their work on a per scene basis, which is different from more mainstream acting. Guy1890 (talk) 21:44, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

• Please stick to relevant points. If you're going to argue that PORNBIO's restriction of eligible nominations to shortlisting is unusually restrictive, please provide counterexamples to show that this isn't general practice. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 10:51, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

• "Please stick to relevant points"...and, once again, physician, heal thyself. Guy1890 (talk) 20:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I went on a small wikibreak because I was moving, and...wow, is this discussion really still going on? It doesn't look like a consensus to possibly reword WP:PORNBIO will be happening anytime soon, but...that does not mean PORNBIO should be ignored, no matter what some delete !voters say in AfDs (and interestingly, they never seem to want to say such a thing here). Erpert 05:57, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

• Editors are always free to ignore guidelines if they see fit.—S Marshall T/C 13:39, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

• Okay, then here's a non-pornography-related example...I don't like Bill O'Reilly. However, I would never nominate the article about him for deletion because he is a notable person...but I could nominate it if I ignored WP:N. Would ignoring that guideline be as I see fit? (If you don't think that's the same situation as this one, it definitely is; besides, you said "any guideline", not just WP:PORNBIO.) Erpert 07:00, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

• It appears that the consensus of the AFD was to delete the article that this was all about and that the consensus choose to disregard PORNBIO in favour of the GNG with flavours of V and BLP thrown in. That's interesting because it firmly suggests that DRV's approach to this kind of content is not at variance with wider consensus and that the outlier opinion is actually the one that argues that PORNBIO must take precedence over everything. I can't say I'm surprised but I do believe that we probably should now close this discussion, which has certainly be helpful in providing external scrutiny to the situation. Spartaz 14:47, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

• Right...so now we can ignore PORNBIO at both DRV and AfD...sounds "great"...ugh...what a complete & total joke this has become. Guy1890 (talk) 21:28, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

• One could argue that WP:PORNBIO exists only to protect articles in this area from a large number of editors who would rather see all of these articles deleted, notable or not. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:21, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

• One could argue that, but it's not the case. A significant number of porn performers meet the GNG. This has never been seriously disputed. The disputes have centered on the use of industry promotional mechanisms to claim notability while systematically failing to meet the GNG. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 11:22, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

• "The disputes have centered on the use of industry promotional mechanisms"...which are usually more generically called adult industry awards that are covered under the current PORNBIO standard...a standard that, again, is actually less inclusive than the current ANYBIO standard when it comes to awards. I mean really...it's not like you're going to see many adult film actors/actresses that are going to win something like a Nobel Prize. Again, the idea that a well-written Misplaced Pages article can somehow meet the PORNBIO standard and not the GNG standard is really a farce that's already been discussed at length elsewhere last month. Guy1890 (talk) 21:02, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Dear Guy please see WP:STICK. I think we get that you want to populate wikipedia with inadequately sources bios of living people. You made your views quite clear. Your problem is that with the exception of a very small cadre of likeminded editors far more editors disagree with you and the relisting and discussion here shows that actually the small minority beating a dead horse against community consensus is your side. Spartaz 21:07, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

• "I think we get that you want to populate wikipedia with inadequately sources bios of living people." When have I ever said that as well? Oh yea, it was never. What's more obvious to me is that there are a number of editors (and unfortunately some Misplaced Pages administrators as well) that have a clear anti-pornography bias. I honestly don't see how to currently fix that though. I do welcome (and have for a while now) a discussion on changing the PORNBIO standard. Guy1890 (talk) 21:33, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

• I'd be happy with just removing the reference to nominations. That would fix it. I don't think anyone seriously objects to the idea of winners of major awards being notable and the nominations are the only significant area of contention... Spartaz 22:08, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

• The title of this discussion (which I've agreed, for some time now, has gone on for much too long) is "DRV treatment of porn-related content". The forum for discussing how to change PORNBIO is here (and thanks for starting that discussion "Spartaz"...I mean it). For the sake of argument, let's say that PORNBIO was changed to remove any "reference to nominations"...would that allow you (since anyone that's chimed in here recently seems to agree that you "Spartaz" are one of the "main closers" at DRV) to give at least some deference to PORNBIO at DRV in the future? Guy1890 (talk) 23:38, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
  • I think it would be easy to overstate the degree is discretion I have as DRV closer as I can't interpret an outcome if that point of view isn't present in the discussion in the first place and it would be unacceptable if I were to close to a minority position unless there was a wider community consensus to refer to that decisively trumps a particular line of inquiry. In most cases I have a sense of what DRV expects even if that hasn't come out explicitly - hence I generally close to a more inclusionist bias favouring relists then I would if I were to close according to my personal views. I also think based on the strength of feeling that in future I probably shouldn't close PORNBIO type discussions unless the outcome is quite evident - but then if we leave the closing admin to random choice we are going to have less consistency of outcome in close discussions and that lack of certainty would probably lead to more controversy. That said, based on my experience at DRV and understanding of the place, I do think removing nominations as an inclusion criteria would go a long way to bring PORNBIO back into line with wider community expectations. I'm struggling to recall a clear example of someone who won an award being controversially deleted and this causing a fractious DRV. I'd be interested in seeing what the other DRV regulars think about this. Generally its DGG, S Marshall & Hobit sitting in the middle on these and I think their views would be the ones that if swayed would tip the balance. Spartaz 13:15, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

user talk:Kudpung#Deauxma (hatted). Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:36, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

On the specific issue of award nominations, my opinion is that for awards in general, a nomination does not show notability, with the exception of the final round nominations of a few outstanding awards where attaining the final round is widely considered as a great honor, and widely discussed: The Booker, Oscar, and possibly the Nobel come to mind--there are undoubtedly a few others. I am not familiar enough to know if any porn industry award is among these, but I think industry awards in any industry are often open to some degree of doubt, especially in industry awards with a great many categories. (There are many industries with a limited number of significant players where every regular gets one of the many awards sooner or later). DGG ( talk ) 15:47, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

DGG, there are no final round nominations for the Nobels. Everyone can be nominated basically, it is meaningless; winning is of courses instant notability. But there is no "longlist" or "shortlist" or "final five" or whatever. Fram (talk) 08:16, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• I'd say the awards currently listed and given to a single person would clear the bar for me. I could imagine some single nominations and some group awards also being above the bar. Hobit (talk) 17:26, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
  • I will continue to object to any consideration of industry-internal awards that are not regularly the object of substantial coverage in other, independent and industry-external media. Independent coverage is, by definition, the only factor that really conveys notability. Without that, industry awards are nothing but self-serving publicity gimmicks. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:11, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

• • More or less agree with Fut. Perf. and DGG here. I've been involved in a few awards ceremonies where we had to, basically, give everyone in attendance an award, and some of the minor awards in some of these lesser known award ceremonies can be of the same kind. John Carter (talk) 18:20, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
    • Folks may want to comment at Misplaced Pages talk:Notability (people)#PORNBIO again. Current trend of discussion there is that, since WP:PORNBIO is being ignored because it's too lenient, it should become more lenient, and that anyone who opposes this is variously anti-pornography, has a conflict of interest, is brainwashing us, are baselessly rejecting "reliable news sources" as press releases, and are deleting articles by weight of numbers rather than strength of argument. 74.74.150.139 (talk) 20:12, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Request amendment of Lucia Black's topic/interaction ban

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hello all. I'd like to direct your attention to Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Ghost in the Shell 2, a new request for formal mediation by User:ChrisGualtieri. This is the dispute between him, User:Ryulong, and User:Lucia Black about how we cover the anime series Ghost in the Shell. Specifically, it is about whether we should have an article on the series as a whole, or whether that content should be merged into other related articles. As many readers of this board are probably aware, Lucia Black is topic-banned from "all articles related to WikiProject Anime, broadly construed", and is also subject to an interaction ban with ChrisGualtieri. Both sanctions are due to expire on November 1. As a prospective mediator of this case, I would like to see Lucia's topic and interaction bans amended to allow her to take part in the mediation.

I have been in touch with Lucia via email, and she is receptive to the idea of mediation. Ryulong has also agreed to take part, so the only obstacle now to the mediation proceeding is Lucia's sanctions. I don't think it would be very useful to leave Lucia out of any mediation proceedings, as any conclusion reached would fall apart when she was allowed back to the topic area in November. And if she participates, we may well be able to work out a resolution that satisfies everyone. So I see many positives and not many negatives from amending her bans. Would others here be willing to agree to this? — Mr. Stradivarius 15:04, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Also, I should remind everyone that Lucia is also topic-banned from WP:ANI. Given that this isn't (quite) ANI, and that this wasn't her starting a thread about somebody, but me starting a thread about her, I think it would be only fair to allow her to comment here if she wants. Let's go easy on the block button if she posts here. — Mr. Stradivarius 15:23, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Normally, I'd support such a thing, but she really hasn't been doing very well on this interaction ban so far. About a month in, she already appealed to have it removed, largely on the grounds that it was "unjust", which was unanimously rejected, and she's clearly being warned about breaking it here too. I'd like to see other's thoughts I guess... Sergecross73 msg me 15:35, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

• I don't see any reason not to allow this, provided it is abundantly clear to her that the exemption is for purposes of participating in mediation only and she is still to stay away from the actual content and related talk pages. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:26, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
• I am neutral about making the exception, but if it's supported, then perhaps it should specify participation on, and only on, a couple of named pages. Also, Lucia should be publicly warned (e.g., on her user talk page) that any behavior during that mediation that is even slightly undesirable will be given in evidence to get her topic ban lengthened, so that she understands the stakes for her behavior here, and everyone knows that she understands them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:14, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

  @WhatamIdoing: Actually, communications made in formal mediation can't be used as evidence in conduct dispute venues such as ANI or arbitration. Medcom has a policy of protecting this kind of communication so that parties are able to speak freely without worrying about it being used against them later. The reason for this is that disputes are usually a lot harder to resolve when the parties are trying to make themselves look good, or other parties look bad, with future discussions at ANI or Arbcom in mind. Taking this out of the equation lets the parties focus on the actual content rather than on each other. — Mr. Stradivarius 22:06, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. I have had little interaction with her. All recent and mostly bad faith on her part. If I had my way I would extend it to full en:wp block for a very long time. She just doesn't seem to interact very well with other editors and makes many disruptive edits.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:21, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support specific exception to the T-Ban and I-Ban to edit exclusively the Mediation discussion page. I understand MedCom has a history of functioning independently and if all parties involved in the mediation agree to these exceptions, I can see no harm. When bureaucracy gets in the way of progress and productive work, you know what to do. Lucia knows any unacceptable behaviour will not be ignored anyhow. I sincerely hope this won't cause more problems again. :) ·Salvidrim!· ✉ 05:22, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - Judging by all the ranting she's throwing on my talk page to me and people watching my talk page, over my above comments, I'm going to go ahead and say she's not really able to hold a rational discussion to editors in general, let alone someone she's got a history of not getting along with to the point of needing an interaction ban, on a topic she's topic banned from. I was intrigued by "WhatAmIDoing"'s idea, but since that was shot down as well, I just can't see these mediations going well. Sergecross73 msg me 16:45, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

  If the mediation doesn't go well, then that's that; we don't reach a consensus, and we continue with the status quo. However, if mediation does go well, then the dispute gets resolved, and the editors involved can go about their editing a little bit happier. The exception to Lucia's bans would only be for participating on mediation pages, so the change we are discussing wouldn't affect normal life on-wiki. The worst-case scenario is that the parties spend some time discussing the issues, and everything continues as it is now, which really doesn't seem too bad to me. Also, mediations are a lot more structured than talk-page interactions, or indeed most other interactions between editors on Misplaced Pages, so there is a lot less scope for editors to go off-topic or get on each others nerves. This is why I say that I can't see any bad things coming from this; the worst we can have is the status quo, and the best we can have is one less problem on Misplaced Pages. It seems worth a shot to me. — Mr. Stradivarius 09:50, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - Lucia Black has frequently violated her topic ban. The appropriate response to this is most certainly not to loosen up the restrictions. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:56, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
  • @serge.You already opposed serge, why bother making another oppose? What you could do is edit your own comment. There's a policy in mind for such things. and please keep you personal bias to yourself. If I'm having an argument in your talkpage, its because I'm tired of you interfering in everything ANI I bring up. I would like some fresh eyes when it comes to ANI. You have your own "personal" reasons. And it shows outside AN/ANI. What you think of me personally doesn't outweight the other aspects. For once in your life as an admin, actually start to see things more objectively when it comes to issues relating to me. Would any admin actually use an argument from an editor against them in something unrelated?
  • @lukeno94. Define "frequent"? I've edited template an american tv show neither officially considered anime nor manga. But warned because it could be "construed" as such. That's not violating the topic ban, that's pushing for the sake of enforcement. WP:ANIME doesn't have these american shows in its scope. And the reason why that matters is because of what the topic ban is even for. I've discussed about GAN stealing that related to a personal issue regarding the topic/interaction ban. "Frequent" is an exagerration. If it was "frequent" I would've been blocked.
  • You both bullied me enough in the last ANI. Can't you concentrate on real vandals? I know a dozen of editors who are much more incivil than me, the only difference is you are the only ones who interacted with me.Lucia Black (talk) 18:25, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

• Can you point me in the direction that policy that doesn't allow me to make 2 separate posts, one as a comment, and then one as an official "Oppose" comment? Then explain to me why it matters. Then explain to me why you're trying to enforce this, when 99% of the time you don't even indent your messages. (See this is why discussion with Lucia go so terribly so often. Its either this sort of nonsense, or bad faith accusations and misinterpretations of policies. This is why she gets these sorts of bans to begin with.) Sergecross73 msg me 20:26, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

• Lucia, although I can't remember the specifics, claiming you haven't violated the topic ban is simply false, and you know that full well. There have been multiple occasions, brought up at a recent ANI thread or two, where you were clearly found to have violated the topic ban, and the interaction ban; but you got away scot-free. You need to stop making personal attacks, and stop making false accusations of "bullying". The answer to this is simple: step back from all areas covered by your topic ban and your interaction ban, or you will end up blocked. That's not a threat, that's a policy-based fact. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:32, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

You are the one providing false information. i have only been brought up "once" in ANI since my interaction/topic ban, and from the same anonymous sockpuppet who just wants to cause trouble which was quickly closed. Other than that, being brought up in ANI "multiple" times is false. i have not gotten a single warning on my talkpage for such occasions. SO how can i accept what you said as true?.Lucia Black (talk) 22:38, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

• Support if and only if Chris G supports. NE Ent 18:04, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

  Chris has clarified this below, but actually he was the editor that requested the mediation, and he had already mentioned his desire for an exception to Lucia's topic/interaction bans on the mediation page. (I should probably have made that a little clearer in my summary above, sorry.) — Mr. Stradivarius 10:09, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Terrible idea. Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:52, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support, but only if ChrisGualtieri agrees as well, and only for the purposes of mediation. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 19:56, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
• I am going to say let her take part in the mediation and that page only. Also, Lucia Black has been blocked for 48 hours on Sept 5th for the topic and interaction ban violation. Though Lucia has once again violated her interaction ban by continuing to attack to me on Sergecross's page, but I rather not have her blocked and see what mediation can do to resolve the content problem, though I think she should be on a week or longer block if she violates the topic ban or interaction ban outside this explicit and narrow definition: "Mediation page(s) only". ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:43, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

  Thanks for clarifying this, Chris. A quick comment on "mediation page only" vs. "mediation pages only": I think the definition should be "Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Ghost in the Shell 2, Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for mediation/Ghost in the Shell 2, and any subpages of Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for mediation/Ghost in the Shell 2". That should give us plenty of room for discussions and/or drafts and still prevent the mediation from affecting other areas of Misplaced Pages. — Mr. Stradivarius 10:27, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

  • In that case as Mr. Stradivarius has pointed out. The "Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for Mediation" and all subpages like "Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for Mediation/Ghost in the Shell 2". This way we have wiggle room and the focus is WP:RFM sections only. I don't think we need to go and make it airtight legalese, but this scope is extremely narrow. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:55, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Under no set of circumstances have I seen this nucleus of editors ever interact positively. An interaction ban means exactly that, A topic ban means exactly that. It is my viewpoint that the conduct issues must be resolved prior to the content issues being resolved. I am open however to a 1 strike regime (1 warning, then a block for a second failure to observe normal wikipedia behavior) to allow LuciaBlack the opportunity to participate in this instance of a DR process. I encourage the mediators to keep a firm grasp on the behavior leashes as previous interactions and attempts at DR have been worthless, long ranging, no holds barred brawls to argue about every piece of contention and massive dumps of repeated arguments. Hasteur (talk) 15:48, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support because the ban expires in a month anyway, and we don't get in the way of MedCom, and ChrisGualteri, who at least some of the sanctions were to protect from misconduct, has agreed to it. However, I also think that the ban be lifted to only deal with the relevant mediation pages. John Carter (talk) 21:37, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support, because I think that mediation can only have a chance at working when all relevant parties are involved; the alternative, from a practical point of view, is simply to wait until November to start the mediation. I trust that Mr. Stradivarius will keep the mediation moving forward properly, and, if Lucia should get out of hand, will be summarily removed from the mediation anyway. Also, to clarify, like everyone including Mr. Stradivarius has said, this exemption would be only for the mediation pages, not any other pages including the article and talk pages that are the subject of the mediation. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:15, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support per User:Qwyrxian. I see no reason for mediation pages to be edited with parties involved. -
  

→Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 15:53, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

it would be great if a decision could be made soon. i'm already getting the mediation invite. and it's not like i'm going to be touching any other page other than mediation pages and obviously, it's mediation, so theres little room for incivility.Lucia Black (talk) 09:37, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Right now I'm seeing 7 !votes supporting unblock, 5 against. John Carter (talk) 00:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Lucia isn't blocked - I presume you mean that you see 7 !votes supporting an exception to her topic/interaction bans, and 5 against? — Mr. Stradivarius 11:29, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

• Support exception. Its the most intelligent approach, and allows for a real dialogue. Irondome (talk) 01:29, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support exception for MedCom only, as a believer in mediation. — TransporterMan (TALK) 18:46, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

• It doesn't look like this will get much more input, so could an uninvolved admin please close this thread? I'd rather not keep the participants waiting too much longer, so I think it would be best to have a decision one way or the other. — Mr. Stradivarius on tour 01:18, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

• FYI, ChrisG and Ryulong are at it again, arguing, and one has reported the other at ANI again. So, this isn't the only thing that's holding up mediation again. (These three are at each other's throats non-stop - I don't see how you could envision this mediation going well. You must have supreme confidence in the process or something...) Sergecross73 msg me 13:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

That is a characterization. I reverted Ryulong once, and Ryulong knew he'd break 3RR if he continued to edit war with Adam, yet did so anyways. After Ryulong broke 3RR he then filed for page protection. In the three days since someone else (not I) took him to ANI he has continued to abuse rollback, yell in all caps at other editors and give a hostile OWN issue, which while it may be the same issue of the mediation case, is not limited to a single page. At what point does an editor have to simply allow months of bad faith accusations to stand simply because a content matter is pending? I don't like Ryulong's constant cursing, reverting proper and good faith edits and constant edit warring and in the three days since half a dozen editors expressed concern he has gotten only worse. So I am at ANI to ask for 1RR for Ryulong for one month given the hundreds of problematic edits done not just at A&M, but all over Misplaced Pages. Ryulong's ArbCom case is even cited in ROLLBACK; so I don't think it is just "me" who has a problem with the actions. Ryulong may mean well, and I do thank him for fixing things, but to say we at "at each other's throats non-stop" certainly isn't accurate and I've been patient and restrained against the bad faith accusations repeatedly made against me. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:06, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

It wasn't meant as a judgment for or against you in your situation with him, merely a statement that arguing is happening both now and continually with varying combinations of the three of you. Sergecross73 msg me 14:45, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Ah okay, I misunderstood. Sorry, I haven't been that active since I've been very busy with work for awhile and I took it as if this matter is non-stop when there are significant breaks between issues and they are not even on the same subject or issue. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:17, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

@Sergecross73: That's right - we can't start mediation while the editors' behaviour is under discussion per point eight of the prerequisites for formal mediation ("No related dispute resolution proceedings are active in other Misplaced Pages forums"). If we did attempt mediation while the parties were at ANI, I think it's fair to assume that the parties would be too distracted by the proceedings there to concentrate on any content questions. If mediation does go ahead after the ANI thread (and if I was the mediator, which looks likely), I would ask the parties to agree not to post about each other at any admin noticeboards for its duration. If that agreement is broken, the mediation can be suspended or closed. — Mr. Stradivarius 22:04, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Current count now seems to be 9 in favor of lifting the restrictions for the purpose of mediation, and 5, at least some of whom may have made statements without the full details of the proposed limitations on editing to continue outside the mediation pages, opposing it. I can't close the thread myself, having expressed an opinion above, but I do think that it would probably be a good idea to allow participation in mediation, if it is to take place, sooner rather than later. John Carter (talk) 22:15, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support- this seems to be a sensible way to proceed. Reyk _YO! 00:38, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support exception for the MedCom only. I know nothing about anime & manga (in fact I had to look it up in Misplaced Pages a couple of years ago to find out what it is) but anywhere else I have come across Lucia I have found her TL;DR diatribes to be exasperating and obstinate to the point of disruptive. She clearly has a problem of collegial interaction and if allowed to participate on the MedCom case, she will have to keep calm or expect even stricter sanctions than she has been given already. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:08, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

  @Kudpung: Actually, we can't base any sanctions for Lucia on her behaviour in mediation. I've mentioned this above as well, but MedCom has a policy of protecting communications made in formal mediation so that they cannot be used to determine sanctions at ANI or ArbCom, etc. This is to remove the motivation for parties to "bait" each other during mediation with a view to getting sanctions enacted at a later date. — Mr. Stradivarius 09:05, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support exception I would love to see this long running dispute finally solved. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:02, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Count now seems to be 12 favoring an exception to the ban, 5 against, and the thread has been open for about two weeks. I would be very, very appreciative if someone were to review the discussion and maybe close the thread, and I think those involved in the proposed mediation would as well. John Carter (talk) 18:18, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, please can someone close this down now - it's been open for far too long. — Mr. Stradivarius on tour 06:01, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Please move Talk:Music_of_the_SaGa_series#Collapsed_sections

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am not sure of the proper procedure for this, but can someone please move and/or close Talk:Music_of_the_SaGa_series#Collapsed_sections to Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Accessibility#Collapsing_music_track_lists? If not, please let me know what is the proper procedure. --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:41, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

• Post to prevent automatic archiving. --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:59, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
• Post to prevent automatic archiving. --Jax 0677 (talk) 23:28, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
• Post to prevent automatic archiving. --Jax 0677 (talk) 16:54, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
• Post to prevent automatic archiving. --Jax 0677 (talk) 18:14, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure (which is transcluded at the top here) would probably be the "proper" place to put it, but all adminy stuff seems to be super-backlogged right now. Ansh666 04:51, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:Archive.rs RFC

It's been pointed out that the RFC that I should probably make certain that Wikimedia is aware of this problem because they may choose to make a global change. It's certainly true that the proxies that have been abusing us have been abusing all the various language versions. Can someone point me at the appropriate venue?—Kww(talk) 15:43, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

• Shouldn't you actually wait for the RfC to end first, and come to a consensus? This is jumping the gun by an enormous amount. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 08:23, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

• It would be jumping the gun if I told them what to do, Lukeno94. The problem is that the bots have been going after multiple language versions, not just us. That makes it a WMF concern as well, so they need to at least be informed.—Kww(talk) 22:12, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

• Maggie's talk page would probably be a good start, she'll be able to direct you where if not her. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:45, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:AfD backlogged

We have open nominations for every day since last Thursday, and there are some day with many nominations. If you have time please consider closing a couple of nominations.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:45, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

And non-admins can help by participating in discussions, as well. Part of the problem is when consensus isn't clear, closers are hesitant to make a difficult call. Mark Arsten (talk) 04:05, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

And if anyone wants to do anything even more boring, WP:PUF is backlogged even worse. Legoktm (talk) 08:11, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Don't forget WP:FFD and the ever-backlogged WP:NFCR. You don't have to be an admin to close discussions on WP:NFCR. -- Diannaa (talk) 18:33, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Everything back to last Tuesday, actually; I've closed all the remaining ones for Tuesday and Wednesday, and will try to look at the rest later (there are a lot though - over 30 for Friday alone). I (along with a few others) do tend to patrol the overdue days but I've been very inactive in the last week; some more admins looking at WP:AFDO would be great. Black Kite (talk) 18:35, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Ok, for now Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Old has been cleared up (with two that I probably shouldn't close myself remaining). Mark Arsten (talk) 02:49, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

I closed one of them.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:39, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

And I closed the other, and bunch the day before yesterday. Spartaz 09:37, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

I can do a few NACs if you like. (Or get off my ass, find somebody to nom and co-nom an RfA, and close lots of them, whatever's easier) I have noticed a backlog, with a number of AfDs I've participated in hanging round for longer, and I've been concerned that a number of debates have been relisted that really shouldn't have been - for instance, I would have called Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/No Alternative Media Group as a straight "delete" without relisting. Ritchie333 11:54, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

@Ritchie333: - proceeding with your RFA would be an investment for the future...GiantSnowman 12:01, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

AFD's is a task I usually perused using my admin account ... I occassionally take a poke at a few in my current fur ES&L 14:24, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

The best possible thing you can do is to improve an article so a "keep" vote is more obvious, alleviating the need for relisting or making difficult calls. Unfortunately it's one of the most difficult. Ritchie333 20:55, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Sometimes it's fairly easy: I no doubt spent less time making these changes , then all the time editors spent making comments at Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Criticism_of_Sikhism --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 21:08, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Just a note to all of you admins who are doing this. Some things that I've seen while going through User:Snotbot/AfD report. 1) closing an AfD doesn't end at adding the tags to the AfD page. If it's "keep", "no consensus", or something of that sort (I think I saw a "keep but merge somewhere" in there), you have to go through and remove the AfD tags from the page, and add the Old AfD Multi template to the talk (most of these are from User:Darkwind and User:Mark Arsten). 2) If you're using an automated AfD closer (like User:Johnleemk's or User:Mr.Z-man's), the "delete" probably won't work if the page has been moved beforehand - it'll delete the pagemove redirect (DATA (Digital Asset Transfer Authority) --> Digital Asset Transfer Authority, Frederick D. Drake --> Frederick D. Drake, Jr., Skales (Ninjago) --> Skales, all of which were closed by User:Mark Arsten; The Iron Bubble Syndrome --> Iron bubble syndrome, closed by User:Drmies), so either the closer will need to check if the page is a redirect or some enterprising coder can try to fix up the tool. I'm in the process of fixing everything on Snotbot's page that doesn't require the tools to do. Thanks, Ansh666 06:25, 8 October 2013 (UTC) (if you wish to reply, please ping me - I don't watch the dramuh-boards even if I read them frequently)

This is why I strongly urge people not to move pages while they're at AfD... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 17:18, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Or at least state on the AfD page that they've moved it. When I used to go through AfDs, that was one of the tasks, to see if anyone'd moved the page and make a comment. Unfortunately, school got in the way. Ansh666 17:46, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

User who seemingly only exists to suck people into a weird maze of pages. Is this actionalble?

So I got a notification that Adeptzaire2 thanked me for an edit. That led me to User:Adeptzaire/አብ from the account Adeptzaire. From there, I kept getting bounced from poorly written page with odd links to poorly written page with odd links. Looking through the edit history, apparently all this person has done with their two accounts is set up an elaborate circular maze of userpages. I do believe in AGF, but in this case I think someone is trolling. Is this actionable? At the very least he's created a farm of useless pages that should all be deleted and is not using alternate accounts constructively. Possibly, it's this is a pair of accounts that exist as a joke and aren't here to productively edit, a block would be warranted. Sven Manguard Wha? 06:08, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

• MfD might be an option. Reyk _YO! 06:10, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Forgot to link to this in the initial post, see Special:Contributions/Adeptzaire2 for evidence. Sven Manguard Wha? 06:11, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
• (edit conflict)To suggest deletion of userpages, please see WP:MFD. I'm too confused and lost to come up with better advice. :) · Salvidrim! · ✉ 06:15, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I've deleted a stray one of these in the article talk namespace--Talk:Adeptzaire2/አብ/ረዲረችት, for the record. As for further action, I dunno, I'm not really inclined to do anything. MfD en masse would be the place to go if you want to delete the pages; a reasonable move, though I'd personally say leave it if it stays in their userspace. As for a block...meh. They have a handful of edits in mainspace, which are not problematic save for a deleted article that can probably be chalked up to an editing test. Live and let live, I say, as long as it doesn't get too out of hand (especially in terms of expanding outside their user space) going forward. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 06:22, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

• Hmmm, well, they just tried blanking this section without discussion, so maybe I'll change my tune. Oh well. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 06:27, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
• Well, Misplaced Pages is WP:NOT a free webhost... --Rschen7754 08:01, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

{{minnow}} What is wrong with adminania today? If it stomps like a troll... the only mainspace contributions (Adeptzaire2) I'm finding is a circular link of bogus redirects on 28 September. I've fixed the User:Adeptzaire2 redirect and left them a message. Could a bit-holder CSD (R3) the redirects without me having to tag 'em individually?
What I don't know is how to see how many other editors they're baiting with "Thanks" like they did Sven. I reviewed the WP:Notifications page and don't see any reference to a log. Does anyone here know if there is one and how to check it? NE Ent 16:33, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, you're probably right, NE Ent. I didn't realize the redirects were pointing at each other; I just checked their current targets, which was correct, not their history, where I would've seen someone else who had fixed them. In my partial defense, I was really tired and jetlagged when I posted that, and should probably have stayed away from Misplaced Pages altogether; I'm just back after sleeping 12 hours to catch up. Blocking them is probably the right move; it's just that, for me, dicking around in userspace just doesn't rustle my jimmies. :P Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:55, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

NE Ent, it looks like Adeptzaire2 has only 4 thanks, to Sven and himself (here) and none from Adeptzaire. Liz 21:00, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Wow, we have a Thanks log? Is there a top 100 of thankers? Drmies (talk) 03:53, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Drmies, there is not only a thanks log, you can get a list of thanks you've given and another list of thanks you've received. I don't think anyone is collecting stats on thanks right now.

As I'm going through Misplaced Pages:Statistics, it's clear that WP has a spotty record of gathering stats on itself. Mostly, it has relied developers creating tools, many of which once worked years ago but no longer function. And stats for just a year or two doesn't tell you much.

You'd think that with a website as popular and important as WP, that WMF would really devote resources to research into the dynamics of wiki growth, changes and popularity of content, and examining Editor and Reader behavior to promote retention, training and recruitment. But, they haven't done so in a long-lasting, consistent way, unfortunately. Liz 20:25, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Those wearing more cynical top-hats and monocles than I might suggest it's because the WMF is too busy working on "improvements" that nobody wants. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:08, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Writ Keeper, it's called WP:NOTHERE. I've tagged all of the weird bouncing pages for speedy deletion.—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:19, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

First I noticed a thanks log. Looks like he's been doing some thanking with himself, which seems a little... unseemly. The other one is thanked too I think. At least he's obvious about it though. II | (t - c) 04:25, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Interaction ban request

See the "Request interaction ban" section of WP:ANI, where an interaction ban has been requested between Guy Macon and Ihardlythinkso. Coming here because ban discussions are normally held here, so watchers should see it. Nyttend (talk) 13:36, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Please see Misplaced Pages talk:Administrators' noticeboard#Improving the instructions at the top of the page. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:18, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

RfC validity review requested

I am concerned that a recently-closed RfC substantially violated WP:RFC, resulting in keeping away interested editors and biasing the ones who appeared. I would like the validity of this RfC ruled on. For details, see WP:AN#Talk:Ayn_Rand.23Request_for_comment:_Qualifying_.22philosopher.22_in_the_lead_sentence, particular the first link in it, which summarizes my concerns. MilesMoney (talk) 18:46, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

This is a content issue, not an administration issue. I respectfully point out that this is an inappropriate venue. Yworo (talk) 19:43, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Not so sure about that. If you click that link you will see that the user who closed the thread at ANRFC directed him to bring it here, and if I take the meaning correctly what is being asked for is a review of the RFC itself, not the underlying content issues. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:05, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Yup. I, JethroBT 20:07, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• And having reviewed the supposed "violations" in the framing of the RFC I must agree that there are none and the opening statement was appropriately neutral. And the close looks perfectly fair and clearly had a lot of thought behind it. I therefore endorse both the RFC itself and the close, and remind the reporting user that consensus is Misplaced Pages's fundamental model for decision making. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:12, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

  Thank you. I had no horse in this race, and tried to write a neutral RfC. Yworo (talk) 20:14, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

In regards to my decision to close rather than declare the RfC null and void per Miles' arguments, I did not agree that the opening statement to the RfC was particularly malfomed:

1. Miles argued that the opening (seen here) was biased because it omitted material such as tertiary sources that favored use of qualifiers and lacked arguments based on Rand's academic standing. None of this is required in an RfC opening. Miles also objected the use of the word "opinion" to describe the use of "amatuer" and "self-styled" as qualifiers to describe Rand, which they were (because this description of Rand is not present in reliable sources).
2. There was disagreement between Yworo and Miles on the phrasing, where Miles attempted to correct the RfC opener with this statement which definitely does not present the topic neutrally, and this statement in a later section. Yworo later reverted these changes here and here. This disagreement was perhaps a little disruptive, but given that the argument of initial bias is questionable, I do not believe this is a valid reason to call the discussion biased.
3. Miles argued that because the RfC was only included in the Biographies subtopic and not the Religion and Philosophy subtopic, the article attracted insufficient participation from the proper venues. He argued that this omission "...brought in editors who were interested in biographies, not philosophy, making it difficult to bring them up to speed on the relevant issues. I didn't see any evidence that lack of education or interest in philosophy detracted or muddled the discussion.

What I do see, if anything, is a great deal of bludgeoning on the part of Miles in the discussion, and this request to question my close, while valid, seems to be a continuation of that behavior. I, JethroBT 20:35, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Why was the RfC closed so quickly? I was in the process of developing a list of sources (I had already went through 13, published by Blackwell, OUP, CUP etc.) in order to offer an argument in the discussion. I would note that the discussion was mainly devoid of reference to reliable sources. The RfC started on September 24 and closed Oct 8th. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 21:02, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I asked for an admin to rule on its validity and close it on a policy basis so that it could be opened again neutrally. That's not what happened, which is fine. The sooner it's gone, the sooner we can move on. MilesMoney (talk) 02:50, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

It was closed because MilesMoney specifically requested closure, here. It seems to have backfired on him. Yworo (talk) 02:22, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

@Atethnekos: the discussion actually started back in August. See Talk:Ayn Rand/Archive 46#Again.2C not a philosopher. And with 46 archive pages for Talk:Ayn Rand, I bet your RS has been hashed out previously. So I recommend you check. But please do feel free to improve the article. I hope you enjoy the foray! – S. Rich (talk) 05:12, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand: that edit shows explicitly that he requested it be closed on "the basis of policy, not consensus". But the RfC was closed on the basis of consensus, explicitly. I still think the RfC should have been let to run for longer, if even just up to the standard 30 days. The RfC was being edited substantively less than 3 hours before closure (compare: and ). One can dismiss my would-be contribution as "hashed out" before having even seen it, but I think standards were not met with the result that I was not allowed to present it at all. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 06:52, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

As I said in the close and in the ANRFC request, assessing consensus is assessing relevant, policy-based arguments. I, JethroBT 08:49, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

@I JethroBT:, I think you misunderstand MilesMoney and Atethnekos. MilesMoney said, to paraphrase, 'please close this as malformed based on the procedural policy WP:RFC rather than weighing the merits and content policies.' After weighing the procedural policy, and finding it had not been violated, Atethnekos expected you to decline the close as you determined no procedural reason for close existed.--v/r - TP 13:15, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that does make more sense to me when described that way. Thanks for clarifying. Given that consensus was fairly clear though, I did not see much harm in closing. @Atethnekos:, I'm open to hearing your arguments if you think they were 1) not considered in the present discussion and 2) present a compelling, new argument that would change consensus per Misplaced Pages:Closure_review#Challenging_a_closing under "Closures will often be changed by the closing editor without a closure review:" #1 and #3. You can leave those comments on my talk page. However, given that consensus was fairly clear this time around and was endorsed, it might be better to to simply wait until the next RfC on the topic, which I anticipate will happen in a month. It's up to you what you'd like to do. I, JethroBT 14:57, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

JethroBT did the right thing and did it well. The RfC was closed on the basis of consensus, and the various arguments about the lede were well laid out in the discussions. More importantly, no WP policy was violated in the discussion as the article complies with WP:POLICIES. The other issue concerns guidelines for reaching consensus. E.g., were guidelines followed in setting up the RfC or in how it was carried out? Perhaps, and perhaps not. But editors are smart enough to figure out what editing issues were at stake. They had their say in this regard. Since no POLICY has been violated as a result of the RfC, the issue that MM is concerned about – policy violation – does not provide a basis for reversing the results of the RfC. @I JethroBT: you did good. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 15:01, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Srich, aside from making another appearance in your whistle-stop and flattery tour for Admin candidacy, what earthly reason is there for you, an involved editor, to comment here after the matter has been reviewed and resolved? Please consider a ratchet down. SPECIFICO talk 16:47, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your offer, I shall take you up on it. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 16:57, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Guys, I created this section because I wanted the RfC's validity ruled on by an admin, not just an editor who chose to volunteer. I had expected an admin to respond to my closure request, so when that didn't happen, I came here. The RfC has since been ruled valid, and regardless of how I feel about the ruling, I am bound to accept it. As I said to Mark Arsten, "I will not dispute the results of this RfC nor edit against its stated consensus", and I'm going to continue living up to that.

So I'm not going to dispute the results, but I'm still going to comment on how we got there, because it wasn't quite right. I'm glad the RfC is closed, one way or the other, because I don't see how dragging it out any longer could have helped. In my view (which is contradicted by Beeblebrox), the RfC was too flawed to come up with a meaningful result. Best to clear it out of the way and move on. More deeply, I think it was a case of the tail wagging the dog. The lede has to reflect the article, so any progress has to be to the article as a whole before the lede can be updated to reflect it.

Anyhow, TParis is correct that I requested that the RfC be closed on a policy basis, not a consensus basis. The result I expected is that, if there was no willingness to close it on a policy basis, it would remain open. JethroBT took matters into his own hands and did more than I requested. It didn't much matter this time, but it's still a bad thing. Editors answering requests shouldn't just go off on their own.

My other concern is that JethroBT, in explaining his decision, admitted to some pretty basic factual errors. The biggest one is that he claimed there were no reliable sources for "amateur" or "self-styled". In fact, the two qualifiers are supported directly by the Oxford Companion to Philosophy and Reason.com, and nobody has seriously questioned their reliability. The counterarguments have been on other bases, some of them involving policy.

While I am still not disputing the results, I don't feel that this methodology was sound or should be repeated in other cases. In particular, if he made such basic errors, then I don't believe he was qualified to come to any conclusions. I would politely suggest that he avoid getting involved in RfC's if he does not have the time to invest in actually reading what was posted. It's highly counterproductive.

I would also have preferred it if Beeblebrox, not JethroBT, had explained their reasoning. I'm sure you can understand that "I don't see nothing wrong here" isn't a very satisfying explanation. If nothing else, I would have learned something if they'd explained their view of policy as it applies here.

Finally, I feel strongly that the behavior of both Yworo and Srich32977 here has been atrocious. They show a strong WP:BATTLEFIELD mentality, and their subsequent actions on the article talk page were gross violations of WP:TPO; both took this as an opportunity to shut down discussions.

That's all. Once again, I want to remind you that I am not disputing the results, and I will remain bound by them. That doesn't mean things were done right, and it doesn't mean Yworo and Srich32977 should go unpunished for their behavior. Regardless, the matter of the RfC should be considered closed. Please consider this a post-mortem, as we're examining an issue that is very dead. MilesMoney (talk) 05:24, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

It is dishonest of you to say "I'm not disputing the results" and then go ahead and dispute the results by criticizing pretty much every step of what happened. I see no link to any URL pointing to Reason.com in the discussion (nor anywhere on the page currently), and I already noted in my close why the removal from the Oxford Companion is not compelling on its own: Removal from a single compendium of philosophers does not seem to constitute a need to qualify the term. It's true that no one questioned the reliability of the Oxford Companion. But that wasn't really the point-- several other concerns about heavy reliance on this source were raised: , , , . That you disagreed with all them does not null their arguments. I, JethroBT 06:09, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Calling me dishonest is simply a personal attack, as you are accusing me of intentional deception. I recommend that you redact that and accept that we have an honest disagreement.

Unfortunately, you've made another factual error. If you read carefully, you'll find that there are two references to Ayn Rand in the Oxford Companion to Philosophy. The one you referenced is in the preface, on page x, which briefly mentions that Rand's bio was rejected. The other is on page 762, where it calls Rand's philosophy "amateur". It's mentioned on the article talk page, and I even linked to a full copy of the relevant OCP article. The fact that you are unaware of this issue is deeply concerning.

As for resistance to this source, the usual argument is that it's "only" one source, as if we need more, or that it's insulting, as if that's relevant. However, I haven't seen anyone claim that the Oxford Companion to Philosophy is unreliable, and I wouldn't take them seriously. If anything, it is one of the very best sources available, given its high academic standing.

I'm sorry, but the facts here are entirely clear. I am not asking you to change what you did, or even apologize for it. I would prefer, however, that you recognize the errors you made and try to avoid making them in the future. I have to admit that you strike me as defensive and dismissive. I noticed, for example, that you didn't acknowledge that you went too far when you closed the RfC on the wrong basis. This is, as I said before, highly counterproductive. MilesMoney (talk) 07:22, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

MFD needing closure

Misplaced Pages:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:How_to_draw_a_diagram_with_Microsoft_Word This has been open for over a month and I think the consensus is clear by now. Can someone close it already? Ten Pound Hammer • 19:25, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Consensus seemed to be for archiving, which didn't require an admin, so I did it. equazcion� | 20:09, 8 Oct 2013 (UTC)

Mass creation of automated "Keychain" accounts from Apple

Over the last week or so, there has been a rash of automated account creation, with usernames generally beginning with "Keychaintest". If you look at Special:ListUsers starting with "Keychaintest", you will see close to 100 accounts by now. I've been blocking them, and User:Reaper Eternal has imposed a couple of rangeblocks, both covering IPs assigned to Apple Inc. Presumably, this has something to do with Keychain (Apple). Is there any way we can contact someone at Apple and ask them (1) what they're doing, and (2) if they would please stop? Thanks, NawlinWiki (talk) 21:04, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I misread your post and looked for users beginning with "Keychain", so I noticed Keychain1113 and Keychain1234 and saw that you'd blocked them; do you think they're related? Nyttend (talk) 21:16, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, those two are part of it, although most of them begin with "Keychaintest". NawlinWiki (talk) 21:18, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I looked at a couple of these accounts last week, and they were almost certainly not created by an Apple employee. However, they were created using a pre-release version of OS X, so perhaps it is a developer playing around with a new feature of OS X. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 21:23, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Now, taking a look at some of the newer accounts, I'm finding them all over the place, including 24 on one of Apple's ranges, so I am at a loss for what's going on. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 21:32, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

They've showed up on random IPs all over the world, albeit mostly on Apple's range. I rather doubt the professional software developers at Apple would use Misplaced Pages as a software testing platform to test their software features. I also looked at a couple and they don't have emails associated with the accounts. Reaper Eternal (talk) 01:45, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

We can easily block account creation using a name that begins with "keychain" with the edit filter. Anyone in favor?—Kww(talk) 21:38, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

For what it's worth, in a handful of checks, I have found and blocked a number of accounts that don't fit the pattern. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 21:54, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

You'd typically use the MediaWiki:Titleblacklist for something like this. I'm shocked that NawlinWiki didn't simply (ab)use that. It's not as though he's unfamiliar with it. --MZMcBride (talk) 22:01, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

MZ - I made a polite request here for help with a problem. Does that justify your being snarky about it? NawlinWiki (talk) 22:11, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Over the span of years, you've taken an extremely heavy-handed approach all over the site in a futile cat-and-mouse game. Indefinite semiprotections, range blocks, and title blacklist entries that are affecting an untold number of legitimate and good-faith users, while doing almost nothing to stop whoever it is you're actually trying to deter.

I'm all about solving problems. What's the problem here? --MZMcBride (talk) 22:18, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, that wasn't very nice. And it's not really relevant here. --MZMcBride (talk) 03:38, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Thinking on it, the Titleblacklist extension should probably be folded into the AbuseFilter extension. Hmm. --MZMcBride (talk) 03:38, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

DoRD: Can you please explain why you made these blocks? Was there active abuse or some other disruption to Misplaced Pages? --MZMcBride (talk) 22:03, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I saw a number of accounts, created in a short period of time, all technically indistinguishable, and which appeared to be related. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 22:28, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

NawlinWiki, same questions. I don't see any contributions from any of these accounts, but I haven't checked thoroughly. Surely there's a good reason you all have been blocking these accounts, I just don't see it at the moment. Clarity here would be great. --MZMcBride (talk) 22:06, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• Not other than there are over 100 of these accounts, and when I asked Reaper Eternal to check them, zhe said that they were the result of "very large amount of automated account creation". Just the fact of mass automated account creation seems disruptive to me. But if there is a consensus to the contrary, I will be glad to go back and unblock them all. NawlinWiki (talk) 22:11, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• I don't see any appropriate purpose to hundreds of automatic account creations coming out of a range of corporate IPs.—Kww(talk) 22:27, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• I agree. I can't help but suspect that the sympathetic response to this conduct might have something to do with Apple having a generally very good reputation. If (say) an advertising company, a tourism promotion board or an arms manufacturer had been automatically creating accounts for no clear reason we'd probably be coming down on them like a ton of bricks - and rightly so. I can't see any sensible reason why Apple should be automatically creating accounts, and blocking them seems entirely reasonable. Nick-D (talk) 10:13, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

• Hey guys, I just wanted to let you know that we're aware (Killiondude reached out on Philippe's talk page). I'm on vacation for the day (and so logging on from the car, may be a bit slow to respond on wikI) but am going through everything and will try to reach out to Apple. I'll be looking around myself but if you have anything specific that you want me to see please feel free to email me (EmailUser or jalexander@wikimedia.org). Jalexander--WMF 23:03, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
• Apple Inc. happens to be my employer & I'm a developer there. Let me know if there's anything I can do. I can go through 'inside' channels and try figure out what's going on. People may not be aware that they're being disruptive and I don't think Apple would willfully do so - Alison 23:09, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• According to my only moderatively disruptive search engine, "Apple is number two in the countdown of the top ten most disruptive technology vendors". It's not meant in that sense though. Well, probably... --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:22, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• Did anybody try to email one of these users? If there's a script creating accounts, it might be registering the owner's email address. I agree that it's silly to block accounts that aren't editing. What you want to do is contact the person and ask them nicely what they are doing, and point out the inconvenience they are causing us. Maybe they are testing some software that would be really useful. Jehochman 01:12, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Accounts that are being created disruptively and/or are in violation of policy should be blocked, the number of edits or lack therof is irrelevant. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:53, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
    • Can you please elaborate? What is being disrupted? Which policy is being violated? --MZMcBride (talk) 03:29, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

You can't email them since no email is associated with any account I spot-checked. And yes, WP:ILLEGIT seems to come into play here. Nobody needs dozens to hundreds of accounts. Reaper Eternal (talk) 10:36, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:SOCK, WP:NOTHERE, probably WP:U, and it's WP:DISRUPTive because it's wasting editors' time and the WMF's server space. I can't think of a good reason why these shouldn't be blocked other than vaguely-waved warm fuzzies. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:06, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what the issue here is. What is (if there is one) the good reason we are blocking these accounts? Rjd0060 (talk) 03:47, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I can't think of any either if they have never edited, although I believe I have blocked a couple of them myself because that is what is/was being done. If nothing else, it has certainly served to bring it to everyone's notice and if it helps to identify a possible security issue in Misplaced Pages's registration system or Apple software development, so much the better. We need to get to the bottom of it. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:12, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

How about WP:NOTHERE? I see no reason that WMF's server time and database storage space should be used by someone doing some sort of testing on an ongoing basis if these accounts are not being made without any intention of improving the encyclopedia. —Anne Delong (talk) 11:03, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

• These accounts are still being created. I'm looking at 15 unblocked accounts that were created from networks that don't appear to be associated with Apple Inc., and from the name of the one account I did block, I am even more doubtful that this is anything officially Apple. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 14:03, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
• Apple's trademark describes Keychain as "Computer software, namely, software for providing security and verifying authentication which allows users to gain secure access to multiple network and desktop applications." Perhaps someone with knowledge of the Apple Keychain project got the idea to use Misplaced Pages to test Keychain in some way. Has any of the users of the blocked accounts challenged/commented on their block? -- Jreferee (talk) 14:22, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Not a word from any of them. The last range that DoRD blocked was in China, which is a frequent source of spambots. NawlinWiki (talk) 14:33, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
    • Please note that I have not made any rangeblocks in relation to these accounts - that block was due to an unrelated sockpuppetry case. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 14:42, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
    • Looks like your initial instincts were correct. Since none of the users of the blocked accounts challenged/commented on their block, it doesn't appear that you prevented them from doing something in Misplaced Pages that they wanted to do. I doubt that Apple Inc. would want a news item to associate Apple with the mass creation of Keychain accounts in Misplaced Pages. As of this post, it looks like there were more than 100 Keychain accounts created in October 2013 and none of them have posts on their talk page (Go to here and control-F find "October 2013"). Of the 100+, User:Keychaintest1000, User:Keychaintest55 (created 9 Oct 2013) and User:Keychaintest mj13, User:Keychaintest987 (created 10 Oct 2013) are not blocked as of this post. User:Keychaintest99, created 1 October 2013 at 18:48, appears to have been the first user account created in the October 2013 Keychain username series. I suggest unblocking User:Keychaintest99. -- Jreferee (talk) 10:35, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Trying to add to Misplaced Pages for the first time

I am trying to add to Misplaced Pages for the first time. I added the below and hope it will be approved. Thank you

Website--- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.245.222.157 (talk) 15:22, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

This is not the place to make such additions. You would need to find an article to which this information was relevant, and add it there. Note that ref tags are used to add footnotes, usually for the purpose of citing sources. So you don't add a ref tag unless there is something in an article which the ref would support. DES 15:58, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

If you want to experiment with editing, why not try WP:SANDBOX? GiantSnowman 16:12, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Backlog at the dispute resolution noticeboard

Hi all,

At present, the dispute resolution noticeboard is suffering a large backlog, and requires the assistance of willing editors to help clear it. If dispute resolution is something you haven't done before, it's not that difficult, and other volunteers (like myself) are willing to help you out. Any help would be appreciated. Regards, Steven Zhang (talk) 22:05, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Need more eyes on this article - POV issues

I have watchlisted this inexperienced user for a while. I corrected some of his more egregious issues but now he has created a new article, full of POV issues religious proselytism. As I do not want to sound callous and be the only one after this, I would appreciate some more eyes on user User talk:Nannadeem and especially his new article: Naqvi Orientation. I have added some tags and I'm inclined to PROD it, but as I said I do not want to sound like I am chasing after him or be accused of heavily using the mop. After all he is inexperienced. Another set of eyes and opinions are sought. -- Alexf 22:39, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I have PRODed the article, I can see no plausible way it is or can become encyclopedic or tolerable here. I duly notified User:Nannadeem of this. But that user has since edited the article several times without removing the PROD template. Can it be that he or she simply doesn't understand what the PROD means? DES 04:28, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

A complete rewrite is not really a deletion option, but the user does happen to have gone and done the usual WP:PBUH issues suggesting that aside from being very new, this editor is of the Muslim religion and may happen to have some COI issue. This editor's edit summary states "added names of sons of Imam Al Naqi and truthfulness in respect of Jafar-al-Zaki whose respect is disgraced by denoting him Al-Tawab (Tawab). This is not only sin and causing damage to my sentiments being one of the descendants of Naqvis" declaring that he is a "descendants of Naqvis". The editor may mean well, but needs to be instructed about Misplaced Pages and its policies. The subject is also very personal so care should be taken to not offend him. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:47, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

We already have Naqvis, " who are direct descendants of the prophet Muhammad through the lineage of the Imam Ali al-Naqi." This new article says "Naqvi or Naqavi is a community composed of the direct descendants of the 10th Imam of Ithna Asharis (Ali-Al-Naqi/Al-Hadi)." Nannadeem has been editing Naqvis (where most of his edits have been reverted). Any reason why this new article shouldn't be turned into redirect? Ah, yes there is - it's an unlikely search term. So it may have to go to AfD. Dougweller (talk) 09:43, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Ammend for Interaction Ban (again)

It is shown quite clear here, the discussion is becoming much more confrontational. despite what ChrisGualtieri believes about me "wanting" to "argue", i'm an involved member in this discussion and its nearly impossible for me to respond, he made himself involved to the discussion. And i know how AFD works well enough if this goes on it would either be kept for "no consensus" or be "kept" until i have to respond to the same argument all over again. I'm trying my hardest NOT to confront this editor but still make a point in the AfD. but its being difficult if he's allowed to.Lucia Black (talk) 04:25, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - I don't see much point in a topic ban and interaction ban if every time the subject of the bans wants to break them she is issued with permission to do so. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:16, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - the point still stands, i brought up a discussion, i should be able to discuss freely. ChrisGualtieri has already been advised to avoid topics that i've started. This isn't about me trying to break the rules. We shouldn't be voting oppose for the sake of principle of a ban.Lucia Black (talk) 08:58, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

• Lucia Black, I think the diff you posted above is incorrect. Do you mean as "shown quite clear" here, where, citing "violating interaction ban", ChrisGualtieri removed your AfD post that replied to ChrisGualtieri's post? Would you mind providing a link to the interaction ban. Also, please provide a link to where ChrisGualtieri has been advised to avoid topics that Lucia Black has started. If there are other diffs that put limits on Lucia Black-ChrisGualtieri interaction, please post those as well. Thanks. -- Jreferee (talk) 10:55, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Business and management research

I have only limited time now, so perhaps someone else can take a look and see if anything dubious is going on. The brand new article Business and management research is being edited by 5 brand-new accounts and one that edits only every five years or so, all using VisualEditor to boot. This may be some kind of school assignment or something more nefarious, I don't know, but it certainly is highly unusual. Fram (talk) 08:09, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

One editor left this message on User:Deb's talk page: "we are trying to write a page about Business and Management research based on the book 'Research methods for business students'. And we did not find any page about this subject. We have searched : management and business research, research in business, research management. We didn't find anything. Could we have just half an hour to improve the page ? Following wikipedia standard." Seems to answer the why, but raises other questions. Rgrds. --64.85.216.130 (talk) 08:29, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out that they have ignored my previous advice. I've sent them all a message now. Deb (talk) 08:57, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

I am quite active in deleting PRODs; in my work there I have come across a number of 'essay' style articles, all relating to business management and PR, created by a number of different editors (many with Indian user names) - do we have a rogue class on our hands? GiantSnowman 08:59, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

We've certainly had them in the past. It's hard to know what age group these are and whether anyone's in charge or whether an ill-informed teacher has just told them to "write an article for wikipedia". Deb (talk) 10:20, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

I'll try and get a list of editors together if/when I have time; otherwise feel free to go through and check my 'delete' log, the articles on business/PR are quite easy to spot. GiantSnowman 10:28, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

1. http://beta.congress.gov/bill/113th/house-joint-resolution/55 Constitutional Amendment- Prohibits Congress from making any law respecting the citizens of the United States that does not also apply to the Senators and Representatives

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