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Long record of Russian Genocide

I read this sentence in the article:

"The Russian Empire, with its long record of state organized genocide and ethnic cleansing ("pogroms") was widely regarded as the historic enemy of the Jewish people."

Russian pogroms began in 1881 in retribution for the assassination of Alexander II. Prior to 1881, the relationship between Russians and Jews can fairly be said to be distant, since 95% of the Jewish population was relegated to the Pale of Settlement, with the remaining 5% (about 300,000 people) constituting an elite that was permitted to live in Russia proper.

I hope that the author might re-consider the phrasing, I would suggest stating that the Russian government engaged in segregation and denial of equal opportunity to the Jews in the Pale of Settlement, in a manner roughly equivalent to African Americans under Jim Crow. I don't think that charges of genocide, or equating the term "pogrom" with the highly charged term "ethnic cleansing" are supported by the facts of history.

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.219.127.28 (talk) 20:38, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Correcting opinions in Misplaced Pages's voice

I removed the last part (italics) of this sentence yesterday: "Some criticisms of Zionism specifically identify Judaism's notion of the "chosen people" as the source of racism in Zionism, despite that being a religious concept unrelated to Zionism" - partly because it at that time was unsourced, but mainly because I saw it as polemic: Correcting an opinion in Misplaced Pages's voice. It's now been reinserted with source. I think it should be rewritten if not removed, maybe also writing "claim" instead of identify in the first part of the sentence. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 07:44, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I've removed it for now since zionism-israel.com doesn't qualify as an RS (and changed identify to claim). I assume the content can probably be replaced with a WP:V-compliant source but it has to avoid WP:SYNTH i.e. the source needs to make this "religious concept unrelated to Zionism" point to refute/challenge the claims. It can't be a Misplaced Pages editor combining multiple sources to refute/challenge the claims. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:05, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I just changed the source. It's from a book, and it refutes very clearly the claim that religious concept of "God's chosen people" is related to Zionism.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 08:11, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I still don't think it's right to correct arguments/opinions etc. in Misplaced Pages's voice. The correction should be attributed to someone (individuals, "most scholars" or similar). Even if a professor claimed the globe was square, I don't think it would be correct Misplaced Pages style to write a sentence saying "Professor Wright claims the globe is square, allthough it is round." Iselilja (talk) 08:26, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

The source looks okay and avoids synth. I think Iselilja is right about the narrative voice and attribution. Also, don't forget, this article is covered by WP:1RR and your edit is a technical violation, not that I care because your edit was constructive, but someone might. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:37, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Iranit Greenburg's edit is inconsistent with WP:NPOV. We have several academic sources that say one thing that is attributed "Some criticisms of Zionism claim", then we have another source introduced by IG that contradicts the first set of sources, but instead of being attributed it is used for facts in the wikipedia voice. SH, you may say this edit is "constructive", but if you have an editor in the topic area who consistently ignores the 1rr rules and also ignores core policies of the encyclopedia then that is a big problem, because editors who do follow policy will not be able to fix the problems created by the editor as they are constrained by the 1rr regulations. Dlv999 (talk) 09:07, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Div999 is correct about the edit. An opinion attributed to one source can't be refuted in Misplaced Pages's voice but only in the voice of another source. I'm not too sure that the source is reliable either. The quoted words "the biblical concept of 'Chosen People' is part of Judaism; Zionism has nothing to do with it" are actually bizarre; scores of Zionist theorists will be very surprised to learn that Zionism has nothing to do with Judaism. Zero 09:28, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

@Dlv999, I don't disagree with anything you have said there but my remarks were deliberately limited in scope to this article with respect to IranitGreenberg's editing and I think the NPOV issues can easily be resolved here. What's more important I think is for IranitGreenberg to curb their enthusiasm a bit, be able to see the NPOV violation, understand the role of attribution and when not to use Misplaced Pages's neutral unattributed narrative voice. I could say a lot more about their editing in general in the topic area, which appears rather aggressive and inconsistent with WP:NOTADVOCATE, but it seems to take time for some people to learn that Misplaced Pages policy is more important here than their personal beliefs as you know. They haven't been editing for very long. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:46, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Changes in the lead and elsewhere

I made the changes for the following reasons: These are perceptions or opinions, not indisputable facts (just like 'what they see as an abandoned homeland'): Israel is not an Apartheid country and many Arab refugees in 1948 fled, weren't expelled. So these things are views or opinions. On the other hand, I restored relevant historic episodes in the "History" section (1920, 1921, 1929 riots were very important) and restored criticism of anti-Zionism in the proper place per NPOV, since anti-Zionist views are included in the lead, despite they belong to the "criticism" or "anti-Zionism" sections or articles... although perhaps the entire anti-Zionist/pro-Zionist views should be removed from the lead, they are already in the proper section and in other articles, but removing only one of them is flagrant POV.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 01:07, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Anti-Zionism=Anti-Semitism meme inserted into the lead

I would argue that this is undue and not suitable for inclusion in the lead. If it remains in the lead I will insist that counter arguments to the claim are also included per RS. For instance notable liberal Zionist Peter Beinhart quotes Foxman: "most of the current attacks on Israel and Zionism are not, at bottom, about policies and conduct of a particular nation-state. They are about Jews... When other countries and people pursue policies that are similar (or far worse than) those of Israel, do the critics condemn them? If so, do they condemn them with the same fervor as they condemn Israel? If not, it's hard to deny that anti-Antisemitism explains the discrepancy."

To which Beinhart responds: In their effort to inoculate Israeli policy from criticisms, American Jewish organizations have stretched anti-Antisemitism's definition to the point of absurdity. And many in the organized Jewish world know it. "on a Daily basis", notes Jodi Ochstein, who worked in the ADL's Washington office from 2006 to 2010, "people thought it was over the top. It would be one of those eye -rolling days; you were embarrassed to be working there on those days." But rarely does embarrassment translate into empathy for the people unfairly charged with one of the most damning epithets in contemporary America. (Beinhart 2012 pp55-58 ).

It is wp:undue in the lead.

This article concerns Zionism. So we can give the mind of pro-Zionists and anti-Zionists but not in more some particular critics against anti-Zionist. That would be a basic case of unaccepable pov-pushing given it discredits these critics (true or not).

Pluto2012 (talk) 11:05, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

By the way, this is alos WP:UNDUE : "Defenders of Zionism say it is a national movement for the repatriation of a dispersed socio-religious group to what they see as an abandoned homeland. Critics of Zionism say it is a colonialist or racist ideology. Reasons for opposing Zionism are varied and include the confiscation of land from indigenous Palestinians and their ensuing expulsions, racism and violence against Palestinians, and a refutation of the Zionist claim of a Jewish scriptural entitlement to the Holy Land."

Zionism is an historical movement. No need to talk about current controversies that are more linked to the current I-P conflict than to the debate at the time even if there were already opposition at the time. Pluto2012 (talk) 11:12, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Your version gives anti-Zionist opinions much more prominence over pro-Zionist views. Let me give you an example: anti-Zionist words and accusations have 349 characters against 160 characters of pro-Zionist opinions. It's clear POV and undue weight. However, I do believe the entire paragraph should be removed, since the lead must be only a descriptive text, while the negative criticism belongs to "anti-Zionism" section (in addition to an entire article about it).

Pro-Zionist views:

Defenders of Zionism say it is a national movement for the repatriation of a dispersed socio-religious group to what they see as an abandoned homeland.

Anti-Zionist views:

Critics of Zionism say it is a colonialist or racist ideology. Reasons for opposing Zionism are varied and include the confiscation of land from indigenous Palestinians and their ensuing expulsions, racism and violence against Palestinians, and a refutation of the Zionist claim of a Jewish scriptural entitlement to the Holy Land.

I just wrote a more balanced text. But if you want to remove the entire paragraph, I have no problem with it.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 12:18, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I think the current version (after new revisions) is fine. It's one line about the position of zionist defenders and an about equally long sentence about criticims, and I think those two sentences adequately summarize the main positions. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 13:55, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I think that when counting characters (if that's seen as useful) should include characters in the first lead paragraph that portray Zionism in a rather positive light. Or, should we lace that too with "balancing" refutations? --Dailycare (talk) 17:14, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't think so. The first lead paragraph is an historical description (information), not a subjective point of view or opinion.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 17:37, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

The first paragraph is a part of the lead in the same way as the second paragraph is, and the same principles apply to it as do to the second paragraph. --Dailycare (talk) 18:57, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Agree with IranitGreenberg. The edits made by Pluto violated 1rr on 12/05/2013 so I asked him for immediate self revert.--Tritomex (talk) 05:53, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I really wonder which ones ? Pluto2012 (talk) 06:02, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

3. --Tritomex (talk) 06:40, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I think the lead should be a little more balanced and NPOV by saying Critics of Zionism see it as a colonialist or racist ideology that led to what they see as a denial of rights, dispossession and expulsion of the indigenous population of Palestine.. After all, I don't think Zionism is responsible for such things (the cause of the conflict and refugees is Arab refusal to accept the Jewish state's right to exist), but I also believe anti-Zionism is a valid opinion that should be reflected as long as we clarify it's a subjective point of view, not indisputable facts, just like “what they see as an abandoned homeland”.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 11:27, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

NPOV means accurately reflecting reliable sources. It is not about opinions of editors. Telling us your opinions on the topic bears no relation to the article. Dlv999 (talk) 12:14, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Your sources are reliable to reflect anti-Zionist opinions (Ilan Pappe, Edward Said, Abdul Wahhab Kayyali, etc), not indisputable facts. Per NPOV we should use the same language for both points of view.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 12:39, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually I checked the sources for the "abandoned homeland" claim and none of them support it (cite not 6 for example has a whole section discussing the interaction between the Jewish colonists and the indigenous population of Palestine). This kind of claim is Joan Peters territory. I suggest deleting the "abandoned homeland" claim altogether as unsourced. The second sentence should remain as is: the views are already attributed to "critics of Zionism" so your suggestion is unnecessary. The "abandoned homeland" idea is more of a historical concept that was used by some to promote Zionism, but I doubt you would find any serious modern scholarship supporting the notion, though you are welcome to look for yourself. Dlv999 (talk) 12:53, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Eretz Israel was the Jewish birthplace since Biblical times (where were the Palestinian Arab colonists then? perhaps in the Arabian peninsula), but if you want a specific source to claim that Jews around world consider Eretz Israel their ancient national homeland (before and after Herzl), I can give you this one as an example. The alleged "denial of rights, dispossession and expulsion of the indigenous population" are not facts (denial of rights?? dispossession? most of 1948 refugees weren't "expelled" by Israeli soldiers)... "what they see as" is completely necessary. Per NPOV we use the same language for both opinions or we don't use it at all.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 03:28, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

IranitGreenberg, wikipedia is not a forum but an encyclopaedia.

We are not here to discuss politics. Pluto2012 (talk) 05:39, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Hypocrite--IranitGreenberg (talk) 12:38, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Please cite a page reference for the "abandoned homeland" claim. Dlv999 (talk) 07:03, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Here. I'm going to include "what the see as" in the anti-Zionist point of view.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 12:38, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Jerusalem Post is not a WP:RS source for this topic that was widely covered by historians.

Pluto2012 (talk) 18:41, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

That is a serious reference, published by a serious newspaper, and it meets all the requirements of WP:RS. You do not get to ignore anything you dislike. I brought a source, and I'm entitled to use it in the article.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 06:27, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

The source doesn't support the claim. Dlv999 (talk) 06:54, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

But I'm going to add "what they see" as soon as I can, per NPOV. See also Israelites. Jewish connection to this land dates back from thousands of years.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 06:59, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I think there are two separate points here. The idea of a Jewish connection to Palestine in Zionist thought - which of course i would not dispute that this is an important idea in Zionist political ideology. Second is the notion of an "abandoned homeland" - that there was no-one in Palestine prior to Zionist colonization. The second idea was historically used by some who supported Zionism, but I don't think it would be a claim made today in RS. Your source would support the first idea being a part of Zionist thought but not the "abandoned homeland" claim. Regarding your stated intention to edit war content into the article ASAP, rather than seeking to find consensus - I would advise against it. Dlv999 (talk) 07:15, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

The idea of "Zionist colonization" of Palestine Is dangerously one sided view in complex Israeli-Palestinian conflict held by small group of extremist and equals the idea that Palestine was empty in the begging of 19th century. While the first idea is based o fact that the population of what would be determined by Brits to become Mandatory Palestine a century letter had only about 200 000 inhabitants in 1800 of numerous ethnicity or just 2% of today population, it neglects the fact that Palestine was not empty. The second idea is based on fact that most of Israelis today are descendants of immigrants from Middle Eastern and European countries. This is one sided presentation neglects that Palestine is historically the birth place of Hebrew language and the Jewish people-something which has been recognized by almost all non Arab countries. In this context I do not see IranitGreenberg edits as "edit war" but as a constructive balancing of article. Both views should be left out (better proposition) or presented by WP:NPOV with criticism as they are not opinions supported by the mainstream uninvolved to this conflict.--Tritomex (talk) 10:19, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Zionist colonization of Palestine is uncontroversial in the literature. See e.g. cite note 6, which is being used as a reference for the opinion of defenders of zionism. Or look at the "Basel program" ratified at the first Zionist congress. One of the primary concerns was "The promotion, on suitable lines, of the colonization of Palestine by Jewish agricultural and industrial workers"(cite note 3). Or cite note 2, Referring to the 6th Zionist congress: "Palestine was affirmed as the 'old new land' of Zionist colonization". It's kind of tedious to have to go through this with you as it has been discussed before. I would ask you to stop making claims that are not supported by sources and also to read the sources in the article, which will allow you to make a useful contribution to the page. Dlv999 (talk) 10:46, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Just to make it clear and avoid confusion: Colonization occurs whenever any one or more species populate an area. Colonization refers strictly to migration. Certainly Zionism promoted colonization of Palestine by Jewish immigrants to create an independent Jewish state in a former Ottoman colony. Colonialism, on the other hand, is the establishment, exploitation, maintenance, acquisition and expansion of colonies in one territory by people from another home territory. A clear example of modern colonialism are European domains in Africa. Jewish immigrants didn't seek to use Palestine as a colony from which to extract raw material on behalf of Russia, Poland, Lithuania, Yemen or any other country/empire where they were persecuted. Anti-Zionists say Zionism is a "colonialist" movement (not a "movement promoting colonization in Palestine", which is not the same). Therefore, is a (false) opinion, not a fact, and should be presented that way.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 12:56, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay so, leaving aside your soapboxing, I think there is some agreement here on the content issues. Zionist colonization of Palestine is an uncontroversial fact and should be expressed as such per WP:NPOV - it used to be in the lead but seems to have been removed somewhere along the line an should be re-added as it is described as one of the primary goals and activities of Zionism. That Zionism is a colonialist ideology is a significant opinion, and should be included as a significant opinion per WP:NPOV. The current article says "Critics of Zionism see it as a colonialist...." As it stands this is consistent with policy and the sources, so no need for any amendment. Dlv999 (talk) 14:43, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

The alleged responsibility of Zionism for "denial of rights, dispossession and expulsion of the indigenous population of Palestine" (instead of Arab hostility and brutal attacks since 1920 or a war to exterminate the Jewish state in 1947/48 that led to Arab exodus) is also an opinion and should be presented as such. "What they see as" must be added, per NPOV we can't accept that the article says "what they see as" an abandoned homeland in the case of defenders of Zionism, but not "what they see as" in the case of several accusations by anti-Zionists. Add both or remove both. It's very simple. On the other hand, I prefer to write, in any case, "Zionism promoted Aliyah or Jewish immigration to the Land of Israel", because "colonization" is a term that might be misunderstood or confusing (despite being different from "colonialism").--IranitGreenberg (talk) 14:52, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

The "abandoned homeland" claim is not supported by the current sources and no-one has so far produced a sourcce that would support it. So unless a source is produced to support it that should simply be removed. Regarding your second point. Misplaced Pages is not written based on the personal preference of individual editors it is based on WP:RELIABLE SOURCES and wikipedia policy. Colonization is the term used by the Zionists themselves as well as scholarly sources including those supportive of Zionism (as documented in my previous post to you). It is not particularly persuasive you telling me your personal preference after I have cited to you Misplaced Pages policy and what reliable sources say. Dlv999 (talk) 15:13, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

The early Zionists were in fact upset that the land was already inhabited and not "empty" at all. This web page describes some sources on this - I'm not suggesting we use this page as a source in the article, but the information there is indicative of how things lie in this aspect. --Dailycare (talk) 19:55, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Terms such as "colonization" and "occupation" in this instance are justified as this is how the Anti-Zionist opposition view their opponents, and so their views, while not necessarily fact like the Zionists, are as valid as the Zionist opinion (once again, not necessarily fact) that anti-Zionists are out to "destroy" Israel, or that Arabs were initially motivated by "anti-Semitism", both of these subject to debate.

As far as "Abandoned Homeland", I don't think any of the original Zionists would agree with such a view: in fact, that would be contradictory to Zionist policy, as wouldn't that just embolden Palestinian claims that they even had a homeland located where contemporary Palestine was to "abandon" in the first place?

Solntsa90 (talk) 20:25, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

The idea that Zionism would be a colonial ideology is also subject to debate and is not a fact among scholars. I don't have the reference under hand but I could find them if you are not convinced.

Some scholars point out that in other forms of colonialism :

• there is no historical link with the land that is colonalized ;
• local population is not expected to be rejected but it is used and exploited ;
• regarding West Bank's situation today, they point out that the "metropol" is usually far away from the "colonized" land.
• there is no legitimaty in colonialism whereas there is some in zionsim.

Of course these arguments can be debated too but it is not a "fact" that zionism would be a colonialist ideology.

Pluto2012 (talk) 03:11, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

First, regarding "what they see as" in the case of anti-Zionist accusations, I don't see objections, so I'll add it. About the "abandoned homeland", I understand the problem (Jews were expelled by the Romans, but in any case it's a controversial topic among scholars and historians), so I propose to replace it with the words "ancient homeland" based on this source by the Central Conference of American Rabbis: "The restoration of Am Yisrael to its ancestral homeland after nearly two thousand years of statelessness and powerlessness represents an historic triumph of the Jewish people, providing a physical refuge, the possibility of religious and cultural renewal on its own soil, and the realization of God's promise to Abraham: "to your offspring I assign this land" . From that distant moment until today, the intense love between Am Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael has not subsided.". Just to make it clear, "Am Yisrael" is "People of Israel" in Hebrew (it refers to Jews around world).--IranitGreenberg (talk) 03:22, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Central Conference of American Rabbis, as well as Talmud and Torah, are not reliable sources. Pluto2012 (talk) 03:28, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

To describe pro-Zionist points of view? Yes, there are. More than Walid Salem or Nur Masalha (?) to express anti-Zionist opinions. In any case, I could easily find other reliable sources (not only pro-Zionist) explaining the Land of Israel is an ancient homeland of the Jewish people: . Are these enough for you? Or the Encyclopædia Britannica is another "unreliable fake"?--IranitGreenberg (talk) 03:49, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Except Britannica and Nur Masalha (I don't know Walid Salem) there is no reliable source among the links that you give.

Britannica is poor source because it is a tertiary source that doesn't provide her own sources and if possible better should be found.

The link between The Land of Israel and the Jewish People is reported in numerous books. For this article, I suggest Walter Laqueur, A History of Zionism.

Pluto2012 (talk) 04:24, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Whatever. I'm gonna add your book too, but the rest of the sources are reliable. You didn't explain why they are not. They describe very well the Zionist point of view. You can't ignore anything you dislike by simply saying "they are not RS". I brought several serious sources, and I'm entitled to use them in the article.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 04:54, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

My book ? I meant that you should read this first.

Websites are not sources of enough quality for this article. Read WP:RS.

We don't google to find arguments to legitimate Israel and discreditate her opponents. We develop an encyclopaedia. Pluto2012 (talk) 06:05, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

To illustrate pro-Zionist points of view regarding an "ancient homeland", these sources are more than enough. This article is full of websites used as references. It is not possible that all of them aren't RS. Please explain me why these references are not reliable to express the Zionist point of view: --IranitGreenberg (talk) 12:23, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

I have explained this to you just before your answer. Pluto2012 (talk) 18:48, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

What makes Nkusa org (Neturei Karta) reliable and Central Conference of American Rabbis unreliable source? --Tritomex (talk) 05:09, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Nkusa.org is not wp:rs source except to report Naturei Karta point of view when this can be considered as notorious, which should not the case in the article Zionism.

Pluto2012 (talk) 06:05, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Jewish virtual library, ADL and Encyclopedia Britannica are reliable sources. Tertiary sources are not disqualified from WP.Zionism-israel is reliable only to the claims related to Zionist views.--Tritomex (talk) 04:49, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

The paragraph regarding the 1975 UN Resolution needs details

The UN resolution that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination was not supported by a single _civilized_ country (and I emphasize that word with all of the colonialist implications you can think of), and it should be noted that in the _civilized_ countries, there was widespread condemnation of the resolution, and moreover, that US support for the United Nations began to erode because the UN gave up its (already dodgy) moral authority. The resolution was passed by the arab states and the Soviet-aligned countries. As it is now, the resolution sits unanswered as though any nations that actually _matter_ voted in favor of it. And yes, I am shouting from the hilltops that the opinions of nazi-inspired autocracies and the warlord-led kleptocracies of africa are of no consequence and should have been expelled from the United Nations since their inclusion simply takes away any kind of moral authority that an international body can have. 174.44.174.192 (talk) 09:55, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Zionism is not Nationalism

The lead sentence of this article says that Zionism is a form of nationalism. However, not all forms of Zionism are based upon or are rooted in Nationalism. Therefore, Zionism is not (exclusively) a form of Nationalism. Therefore, Zionism doesn't equal Nationalism. Seeing no disagreement from you self-indifferent such and such's, I will correct the lead of this article. Thanks folks. -Teetotaler 11 November, 2013

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