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Plants Project‑class This page is within the scope of WikiProject Plants, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of plants and botany on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PlantsWikipedia:WikiProject PlantsTemplate:WikiProject Plantsplant Project This page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

Infraspecific

Hey all. Please participate in the discussion in Infraspecific name (botany)#Cultivar, etc. regarding how to proceed with the proposed creation of a page on the term "Infraspecific".-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL

Copyright concerns related to your project

This notice is to advise interested editors that a Contributor copyright investigation has been opened which may impact this project. Such investigations are launched when contributors have been found to have placed copyrighted content on Misplaced Pages on multiple occasions. It may result in the deletion of images or text and possibly articles in accordance with Misplaced Pages:Copyright violations. The specific investigation which may impact this project is located here.

All contributors with no history of copyright problems are welcome to contribute to CCI clean up. This one is really brief compared to most, and your help could get it taken care of quickly. This is good for the articles as well as for contributors. Personally, I feel terrible for people who come in behind contributors who do this and improve content that winds up having to be discarded. The sooner we can get a usable base in place, the sooner we can begin building material we can keep. There are instructions for participating on that page.

Additional information may be requested from the user who placed this notice, at the process board talkpage, or from an active CCI clerk. Thank you. --Moonriddengirl 12:42, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Senecio erucifolius vs. Jacobaea erucifolia

Hi everyone,

According to the The Global Compositae Checklist Senecio erucifolius and Jacobaea erucifolia are two different plant species, with two different homeranges S. erucifolius and J. erucifolia . Could someone tell me his/her opinion about this, please? Regards. DenesFeri (talk) 08:41, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

A lot of Senecio species are now placed in genus Jacobaea. As reported in Commons, Jacobaea erucifolia (L.) Gaertn. et al. is a synonym of Senecio erucifolius L. --Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 12:01, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

That's indeed what The Plantlist tells us. Lycaon (talk) 12:27, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

That both names are accepted is an error - the names are nomenclatural synonyms and by definition cannot refer to different species. The different geographic ranges needs another explanation - I'd guess that one record takes a broad conception of the species, and the other a narrow conception (the rest of the range being occupied by a closely related species). Lavateraguy (talk) 12:42, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

OK thank. Thank you very much for your help and explanations! Regards. DenesFeri (talk) 15:56, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

If you look carefully at The Global Compositae Checklist entries, it seems clear that the statement that Senecio erucifolius is accepted is in error, because infraspecific taxa of this species are referred to Jacobaea erucifolia. (I sent them a query using the feedback form and got an automated reply saying that the editor is on maternity leave.) Peter coxhead (talk) 19:48, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Active botanists

There are many Misplaced Pages categories having the form "Botanists active in ...." Is this supposed to mean living botanists only? Or also dead botanists who were active in those regions? See Category:Botanists by location of research. Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:50, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

It seems clear that it means anyone, living or dead, who was active as a botanist in those areas. In those categories I've looked at, all entries have been famous botanists of the past. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:17, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. I'll add a clarifying note. There are lots of Misplaced Pages categories for "active politicians" which seems to refer just to living people.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:20, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Thorns, spines, and prickles

I edited the first paragraph of Thorns, spines, and prickles, if someone wants to correct the redaction. --RoRo (talk) 12:40, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Proposal to change name Thorns, spines, and prickles

I'd like to propose to change that name for something like "Sharp-pointed plant defensive mechanisms" because it has to cover more spiny structures than thorns, spines and prickles. I proposed that on the talk page and AfadsBad told me to post it here. --RoRo (talk) 22:04, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

It should be discussed there, but it's good to alert people here. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:41, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Deletion nomination List of Flora of the Lower Colorado River Valley

An article with a list of flora for one of my favorite ecosystems is up for deletion here. One cannot categorize plants by ecosystem, as the categories get deleted. A lst article seems perfect for this. I would appreciate support for keeping the article or suggestions for how to proceed otherwise from plant editors. Thanks. --(AfadsBad (talk) 05:10, 26 September 2013 (UTC))

Tree book

Does anybody here have a copy of Forest Giants of the Pacific Coast by Robert Van Pelt? This isn't a big deal, but the Thuja plicata article could use a page number in a citation. Jsayre64 (talk) 02:06, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Will this Google Books link help? Hamamelis (talk) 02:53, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

No, unfortunately that limited preview will only let me see the index listing for the tree without actual information about it. Jsayre64 (talk) 23:17, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

If you type in Quinalt redcedar to the search box for that Google book, you will see that one of the preview boxes gives you a small image of the full information on pg 181. It lists it at 174'. The second ref in the article lists the Quinalt at 53.0 m, which is 173.885 ft; so it looks like the text of the article doesn't match both references. Perhaps someone changed it to reflect current growth, but didn't add a reference? If you need anything else in that book, they have a copy at my local library, just let me know. --Tom Hulse (talk) 17:32, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

File:Potato radiograph for CT.jpg

File:Potato radiograph for CT.jpg has been nominated for deletion. There's been statements made at WT:MED that radiographs (X-rays) are unencumbered by copyright concerns; I have no idea if this would apply to a plant. -- 65.92.181.39 (talk) 07:48, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Not understanding reviewing

I recently started doing some New Page Patrolling; not a lot yet, but I've started. I've learned that we're to look for things that don't meet wiki standards such as articles that qualify for speedy deletion, hoaxes, obvious junk, etc. I just made three more new articles, my 21st-23rd. Full list is here: User:HalfGig/Articles. While I do work in a narrow area and my new articles are not usually large in size, I don't make junk. So why are a reliable editor's new articles required to be reviewed? It seems rather inefficient to me. HalfGig (talk) 23:46, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

You can apply for autoreviewer rights and then you won't have to worry about it anymore! Sasata (talk) 23:55, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Ah OK! I applied. And Sasata, thank you for your Did You Know tips, I recently filed my first request on the Did You Know nomination page. HalfGig (talk) 00:06, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

I would review your articles for now, except, with the first one I find that all of the doi's are wrong. If you use the JSTOR template does it automatically fill in the DOI? Plant articles tend to be ignored on the list, because few editors are capable of the type of review necessary, or are scared. I got told, oh, it would only take a second, but it doesn't if you are clueless about plant articles. I have recently had to update a bunch by one editor to APG III. I don't think that's covered in reviewing articles, but editors are afraid of plants. --(AfadsBad (talk) 00:35, 28 September 2013 (UTC))

Mgiganteus1 told me the JSTOR template ceased filling in automatically some time ago. So I have to to them by hand but it does still build the DOI automatically, so there must be some glitch. That hardly warrants not granting auto reviewed, it's not like NPP is doing a Good Article or above level review. HalfGig (talk) 01:20, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

No, it should not impact autoreviewed, but admins seem over enthusiastic about keeping a queue. Your articles are encyclopedic, written in English, sourced. I would check for copyvio problems, in general, before making an editor autoreviewed. For what it is worth, I will put in a word about your article quality at permissions. --(AfadsBad (talk) 01:27, 28 September 2013 (UTC))

The patrollers are doing a very minimal check; patrolling new articles doesn't require special expertise in any subject. New article patrollers are looking for stuff that could expose Misplaced Pages to legal issues (blatant copyright violations, libel about living persons), and making sure that articles are plausibly notable (not obviously hoaxes or spam). Broken references (or even lack of references) isn't something the new article patrol fixes.

It is quite helpful to also have somebody looking at new articles for other issues. References, grammar, taxoboxes, categorization, and stub sorting are good things to check. If you're interested in doing further review of new plant related articles, watch the page User:AlexNewArtBot/PlantsSearchResult. The bots algorithm does include some non-plant related false positives, but seems to cover most new plant articles. Plantdrew (talk) 02:49, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh, good tip. I didn't know there was a plant specific listing. HalfGig (talk) 03:02, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

And having your articles appear on this list will matter much more than their being reviewed by a random user. I say don't worry about it, even though it is annoying, and keep writing! --(AfadsBad (talk) 03:13, 28 September 2013 (UTC))

Lewis Leonard Forman references

I had trouble getting proper reference info for some species named after Forman. I asked Mgiganteus1 for help and he posted this in response: User_talk:HalfGig#Re:_Lewis_Leonard_Forman..."These might be quite difficult to track down. I've had a quick look and it doesn't appear that the journals in question have online back issues (or even content lists) going that far back. Searching for the species name + journal proved equally fruitless. Maybe someone over at WikiProject Plants could help?". References 4,5,6 need more info and there is one species I commented out because it was described in 1942 and claimed named after him but he was only 13 at the time, so it wasn't likely. Thank you if anyone can help. HalfGig (talk) 22:28, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Done, I think. The Gardner reference would be "Contributiones Florae Australiae Occidentalis XI", but I can't find an online copy to check the etymology of the epithet. --Stemonitis (talk) 00:36, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh wow, thank you! Very kind of you. HalfGig (talk) 00:56, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Cucurbita peer review

I just listed Cucurbita at Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Cucurbita/archive1. If anyone has time, would you be so kind as to look at this article, especially the medical/pharmacological issues, which are in Cucurbita#Chemical_constituents? The peer review page suggested asking at wikiprojects for help. I've also notified some users who have been helping me. I appreicate any assistance anyone can provide. HalfGig (talk) 01:54, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

RoRo--I will work on your comments. I've moved them to the peer review page as I think it's more appropriate there. I hope that is ok. If not, feel free to change it back. HalfGig (talk) 22:02, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh it's ok, that was the place. --RoRo (talk) 14:40, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

File:Tabernaemontana by kudayathoor.jpg

Does Tabernaemontana heyneana and Tabernaemontana alternifolia are synonyms? http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Nag%20Kuda.html says so. Further, Misplaced Pages has only Tabernaemontana heyneana page and Commons has only Tabernaemontana alternifolia category. But Wikispecies has both species:Tabernaemontana alternifolia and species:Tabernaemontana heyneana. JKadavoor Jee 04:40, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Good catch. I've updated wikispecies (but am unable to see whether the GRIN citation disagrees with WCSP because of the indefinite shutdown of USDA services). Tabernaemontana heyneana has a move request now listed on its talk page. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 17:11, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. JKadavoor Jee 03:25, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank goodness for the Google cache of the GRIN entry. Appears there was a proposal to conserve T. heyneana against T. alternifolia and T. crispa. Ultimately, it would appear that conservation was not recommended so T. alternifolia is the correct name. Rkitko 03:37, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

The conservation proposal and the decision of the Committee for Spermatophyta are interesting. One of the points made in the proposal is that the plant does not have alternate leaves as the name T. alternifolia implies. The reasons for rejection include that the plant has a rather small distribution, and that most authors (but not all) had been using the name T. alternifolia. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:05, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I discussed this with Tony Rodd and his reply is

JKadavoor Jee 16:39, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

To clarify Tony Rudd's comments, as noted above the proposal to conserve T. heyneana was rejected (Taxon 55: 796 for those with access). Peter coxhead (talk) 09:22, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

As I understand, all proposals and responses in Taxon related to the ICN are open access (on the Ingenta site). Lavateraguy (talk) 20:29, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

That's useful information, because the same articles aren't open access on JSTOR. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:28, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

There's quite a bit of stuff that isn't open access on JSTOR, but is open access elsewhere. For example, IIRC, a lot of AmJBot. Lavateraguy (talk) 08:47, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

AfC submission

There's a very meticulous article up for review at AfC, but I'm not sure how to approach it. Mind having a look? Thanks! FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 15:13, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

The two things that leapt out at me are 1) I'm not sure the tree measurement wikis would be considered valid references and 2) formatting of many references could use some work. HalfGig (talk) 16:07, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

It's written as a how-to, and it needs to be completely rewritten. The references are a bit poor, as HalfGig states, and references to the wiki should be removed. The topic is notable, and it is an appropriate article for Misplaced Pages. --(AfadsBad (talk) 16:12, 9 October 2013 (UTC))

What's more, it's already a Misplaced Pages article; see tree measurement. The referencing is an issue, though. --Stemonitis (talk) 16:29, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Chloroplast Good Article nomination

Chloroplast is currently up for Good article nomination.—Love, Kelvinsong talk 01:29, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Marbleleaf

Hi, sorry, first time I've contributed to Misplaced Pages, please delete this comment once someone in the know about how things are properly done has taken note of the point I'm making! And here it is: How come Carpodetus Serratus, Marbleleaf, doesn't appear in the list? Assuming this is just an oversight, could someone fix this up please? In the mean time, I'll have a look into how to do this kind of thing properly myself. Sorry to be a pain.125.239.209.6 (talk) 11:05, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Moved this item to the end and gave it a heading. Hamamelis (talk) 11:11, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. I've added marbleleaf to the list of trees and shrubs in Flora of New Zealand (coupled with putaputaweta) and made a redirect for marbleleaf so it will appear in the Misplaced Pages search box. Does that cover your concern?--Melburnian (talk) 11:46, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

ID request

I'm trying find out what this is. Many thanks for any help you can offer.

Other views:

• http://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Unidentified_plant_in_Hainan_-_02.JPG
• http://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Unidentified_plant_in_Hainan_-_03.JPG
• http://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Unidentified_plant_in_Hainan_-_04.JPG
• http://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Unidentified_plant_in_Hainan_-_05.JPG

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:34, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

There's a lot of guesswork involved in this, but it looks quite a lot like Phymatosorus hainanensis, which should at least occur in the area. Pictures of the base of the frond would help to be sure, especially of the scales. --Stemonitis (talk) 06:28, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you so much. I'll get a pic of the rest of the plant as soon as I can find one. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:29, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

It looks like it's epiphytic judging from the Pyrrosia (?) in the background. Does it have a "basket" at its base made of oak-like leaves? Could be Drynaria.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 22:16, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

I didn't notice the base. Next time, I'll get more comprehensive photos. Sorry to bother you all with this one. I kept thinking it could only be one thing. I have to get it through my head that there are bzillions of species. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:10, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Kalpasi

Someone just wrote to the Wikimedia foundation noting that Kalpasi is a lichen not a flowering plant.

I see someone has made the same claim on the talk page.

I don't have enough subject matter knowledge to make the change, can someone help? --SPhilbrick(Talk) 16:23, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

The IP's explanation at Talk:Kalpasi appeared to be spot on. I have fixed the article accordingly. --Stemonitis (talk) 17:26, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank-you very much, and good timing. I just got another email urging prompt action, so it was nice to be able to respond that it was done.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 13:23, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

ID request

Can anyone help identify an image in Commons of a Brassicaceae species with yellow flowers, radish-like fruit, growing on a beach in Hawaii? Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:10, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

It's Vigna marina. I uploaded it but miscategorized it. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 15:23, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

The flowers, at least, are wrong for that. It looks like a Brassicaceae species, as Sminthopsis84 stated. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 15:33, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm wrong. I'm sorry. I thought I'd added the Brassicaceae cats in err. I didn't realize until now. Here are all of them:

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Vigna_marina_(aka_beach_pea,_nanea,_notched_cowpea)_-_01.jpg
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Vigna_marina_(aka_beach_pea,_nanea,_notched_cowpea)_-_02.jpg
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Vigna_marina_(aka_beach_pea,_nanea,_notched_cowpea)_-_03.jpg
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Vigna_marina_(aka_beach_pea,_nanea,_notched_cowpea)_-_04.jpg
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Vigna_marina_(aka_beach_pea,_nanea,_notched_cowpea)_-_05.jpg

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 15:39, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

All Vigna except #4 with the cruciform flowers, which is clearly growing in among the Vigna (love the last photo, by the way). Sminthopsis84 (talk) 16:47, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

From the fruits, I'd guess at Raphanus raphanistrum ssp. landra (Mediterranean radish). Lavateraguy (talk) 17:28, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Looks just like it! Thanks! We'll probably have to make do with identifying it to species for now, since Commons and Misplaced Pages are still hesitant about the subspecies taxonomy. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 21:29, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Update on this story: I just received a message to say that the labelling on the original photo, which is here, has been corrected. So, thanks to everyone who was involved in solving that puzzle, the world beyond the wiki has also benefited. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 17:09, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Polite request

Hello everybody. After a long, extended Wikibreak I'm back on enwp, and have just written an article on a plant - Silaum silaus. I've never written an article like this before, and would really appreciate having an editor more versed in botanical articles have a look over it; especially making sure I correctly 'translated' the species description from here into understandable English - is it enough to link to the words on Wiktionary, or should descriptions be provided on the page? How could I improve the article/what assessment grade is it as currently etc. I'm thinking of writing some more plant articles, so some feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Acather96 (talk) 09:37, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• Hi. Good new article there. My thoughts are: 1) Expand habitat, distributio, and uses sections. 2) This sentence: "With regards to the etymology of the binomial, "Silaum" is either derived from the yellow ochre -related to the colour of the plant's flowers -, could denote uncertainty or refer to the Sila in southern Italy." does not make sense to me. I'd suggest listing it at T:TDYK right away. HalfGig talk 00:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi, thanks very much :) The article appeared on the front page in the DYK section on the 5th of November, and I'm pleased with it! My next project will be Luzula sylvatica I think. Acather96 (click here to contact me) 21:43, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Classification of Heracleum maximum

‎In case this doesn't get noticed for a while (Heracleum maximum has less than 30 watchers), User:Johnvalo has brought up something that appears to need expert attention at Talk:Heracleum maximum#Classification. Thanks, Hamamelis (talk) 16:54, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Azolla caroliniana or Azolla cristata

Azolla terminology looks rather confused, but it may be the case that Azolla caroliniana is a synonym of Azolla filiculoides and the plant widely known as Azolla caroliniana is correctly called Azolla cristata. Anyone know anything about these questions? Lavateraguy (talk) 17:24, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Requested moves for Big-cone pinyon, Tamarillo

There are a couple open plant related move requests at Talk:Big-cone pinyon and Talk:Tamarillo. Very few editors have weighed in on the discussions, which I assume is due to a lack of awareness of the proposed move rather than a lack of interest in commenting. If you are interested in staying abreast of move discussions, please consider adding Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Plants/Article alerts to your Watchlist. Notifications of proposed moves are not reliably posted on this talk page. Plantdrew (talk) 00:20, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Bot for tagging articles with the WikiProject Plants banner

Are there any bot operators around? Or has anybody interacted with bot operators who might be amenable to my request? I know bots played a large role in adding the banners for this WikiProject to many articles on plant species. I've come across several articles on species (most notably Talk:Mangifera indica) that were missing the banner on the talk page, but which were included in the taxonomic categorization scheme. Could a bot be made to drill through all the subcategories of Category:Angiosperms and add the project banner to all the categorized articles that haven't already been flagged for WikiProject Plants? Plantdrew (talk) 07:07, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

This should be possible (I'm not a bot owner, by the way), but it would need to be more carefully targeted. Not all subcategories of Category:Angiosperms are actually part of the taxonomic hierarchy; for instance, Category:Lettuce is a subcategory of Category:Lactuca, but we wouldn't want to tag lettuce sandwich for this project (similarly, Category:Chocolate is in Category:Theobroma, and there will be quite a few others). Perhaps if the bot checked that the category name was a term in the taxobox hierarchy (with or without a disambiguating term in brackets), that would limit it sufficiently. There would probably be more false negatives than false positives under that system, but it would certainly be a start. Alternatively, or additionally, it should be posible to use CatScan to report all the articles in the hierarchy not tagged for this project, and tackle the list manually if it's not too long; I've just dealt with Category:Malvales by that route, but there might be too many for this approach to be feasible alone. --Stemonitis (talk) 10:20, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Ooh. Thanks. That is what I was looking for. User:Choess mentioned CatScan to me a couple weeks ago, but I missed seeing Catscan version 2 when I did a search for Catscan (the previous version doesn't seem to allow searching for the intersection of categories/templates across Talk/Article space). Now that I can make CatScan do what I want, I see how many false positives (not very relevant to Plants Project) there are from a subcategory search. I'm happily poking through Category:Sapindales now for species articles without a Plants project banner. Plantdrew (talk) 03:28, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Categorization question

I've been trying to tidy up some of the angiosperm-related categories and have a question about how to handle categories which are too small.

Consider Category:Hernandiaceae as an example. This is clearly too small, having only 4 members: 1 subcategory and 3 articles. (A minimum of around 9–10 members seems in practice to be the target.) There are two ways of fixing this:

1. Move all 16 members of Category:Hernandia upwards into Category:Hernandiaceae. Advantages: all categories are of adequate size; there are no "gaps" in the category hierarchy. Disadvantage: the genus is large enough for its own category, so this is what editors and readers would expect.
2. Move all 4 members of Category:Hernandiaceae upwards into Category:Laurales. Advantages: all categories are of adequate size; the genus Hernandia has its own category as would be expected. Disadvantage: there is a "gap" in the category hierarchy at the family level.

I somewhat prefer (1), because I prefer not to have ranks missing while navigating down the taxonomic category hierarchy. However, it's a fine judgement.

Opinions, please. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:02, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

I would very strongly favour option 1. Even with all subcategories merged in, Category:Hernandiaceae would contain only 19 articles. This is by no means too many to navigate easily (!), so there is no reason to split the category in the first place. Only when a category becomes cumbersome should it be split, which is unlikely to occur in this case, since the family only contains a few dozen species. There is no need for every genus, even every large genus, to have its own category; the decision to split a category into subcategories should be based on the size of the category before splitting. The minimum of 9–10 entries for a subcategory is therefore less important than the maximum size of a few hundred (a figure off the top of my head; there may be a guideline somewhere on this, but there would certainly need to be more than 100 articles before a split was required). It is often not worth merging categories up if it is likely that they will grow organically to reach an appropriate size, but that doesn't apply in this case. --Stemonitis (talk) 14:44, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Ok, as no-one else has commented, I've fixed this case as per (1). I had thought this might work as a general principle, but Category:Piperaceae presents a counter-example. As of the time of writing:

• Category:Piperaceae had only 5 members, 2 subcategories and 3 articles, so needed dealing with.
• However, its 2 subcategories have 65 and 91 members, as the genera Peperomia and Piper are large.

So the solution seems to be to move all the members of Category:Piperaceae up to Category:Piperales, even though this leaves a "gap" in the hierarchy. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:47, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Parenthetical disambiguators: (plant), (genus), (orchid), etc.

Is it worth putting something in the project guidelines suggesting the use of a particular disambiguator for genera with an ambiguous name? Current usage is pretty inconsistent, and I've noticed some moves from one disambiguator to another being reverted, so it might be worth discussing. There are 321 articles using "(plant)" as the disambiguator, 96 using "(genus)", 7 using "(plant genus)" 27 using "(orchid)", and 30 for fern/grass/moss/palm/legume.

I'm not a big fan of "(genus)"; it can still be ambiguous. I've come across maybe a half dozen articles dabbed with (genus) where there was also an animal genus with the same name. (plant) is less ambiguous and provides a little more information about what the subject of the article is. If a search engine gives lots of "wrong" results for an ambiguous genus name, I suspect that "plant" would be the most likely term added to refine the search. Disambiguators like orchid/fern/grass/etc. give quite a bit of information about the article subject, but detract from consistency in article titles. Should (plant) be suggested as the default disambiguator? It's presently the most widely used. Other terms might be appropriate on a case by case basis (e.g. the subjects of Vanilla (genus), Lotus (genus), and Asparagus (genus) can't be effectively disambiguated with (plant)). Plantdrew (talk) 17:52, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

This was discussed before, I can't remember exactly when but perhaps a couple of years ago, and the result was lack of clear agreement, though people's positions may have changed since then. An additional problem with "(genus)" is that it's verging on natural sciences jargon, and general readers may not know what it means. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 19:05, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

There was a brief discussion touching on this question here. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 19:15, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I would always favour using "genus" as the primary disambiguator (but obviously not when the name also exists under other codes). I'm not sure how widely it would be seen as jargon, but it's a concept that cannot be comfortably expressed in any other words. It is the disambiguator that requires the least amount of prior knowledge on the part of a seeker, which ought to be one of the main criteria. I may know that there is a genus called Lotus, but I may not know what sort of organism – or I might know that it's a plant but not know what sort of plant. (Even if I knew the family, would it be "Lotus (legume)", "Lotus (Leguminosae)", "Lotus (Fabaceae)", "Lotus (Papilionaceae)" or something else? I shouldn't have to know Misplaced Pages's conventions to find the article.) Using something like "(orchid)" therefore seems extremely unhelpful: it may well be that I'm looking the subject up to find out what it is, so the disambiguation shouldn't expect me to know beforehand.

WP:NCDAB gives a few examples, none of which is exactly analogous with this situation, but I think we can draw some conclusions. It recommends using "the generic class", with the implication (in my mind at least) that the most generic class (where reasonable) should be used. The article on the element mercury is at mercury (element), not mercury (metal); similarly, I would argue we should have the article at "Xxxx (genus)", not "Xxxx (orchid)" or "Xxxx (plant)". --Stemonitis (talk) 19:19, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

The problem with "(genus)" is that it can't be used consistently (because of the cases where there is an animal genus). This makes it not comparable to "(element)", it seems to me. The most generic class which achieves the necessary disambiguation is surely "(plant)"? Peter coxhead (talk) 19:55, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I found the discussion from a couple of years ago (though there may have been others) - it's here. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 20:03, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for digging up the previous threads. I did a quick check of the (genus)/(plant) articles starting with "A". 22 of 42 "A" (plant) articles have a corresponding article at Category:Genus disambiguation pages. I checked GBIF and WoRMS (the single largest animal database I'm aware of, but far from comprehensive) for animal genera sharing a name with the plant "A" (genus) articles. 9 of the 18 plant "A" (genus) articles are homonyms with an animal genus!!! Granted, some of the animal genera are obscure synonyms, and unlikely to have a Misplaced Pages article, but there is still potential ambiguity. From my quick check, a minimum of 31/60 ambiguous plant genera starting with "A" would NOT be adequately disambiguated by (genus). Plantdrew (talk) 21:22, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I've now checked all the "A" (plant) pages against GBIF & WoRMS. 22 already disambiguate a plant and animal genus at the base title. 14 more share a name with an animal genus (but the animal genus isn't yet on Misplaced Pages). Of the 60 genus names I've checked, only 15 are unique to the plant kingdom. Depending on whether all the animal genera (including redirecting synonyms) are added to Misplaced Pages, 22-45 of the 60 pages I've checked require a dab term other than (genus). Only 1 of the 60 pages (Asparagus (genus)) doesn't work with a dab term of (plant). Plantdrew (talk) 22:49, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Siegesbeckia orientalis

The distribution information needs to be fixed - this seems to be a tropical east Asian plant (fide Flora of China), but naturalised elsewhere in the tropics. I suspect that is naturalised, not native, in Mauritius. Lavateraguy (talk) 13:18, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I have recently come across a couple of other articles created by the same editor with similar errors in the distributions – in my cases species introduced to North America being described as native there, and ignoring their wide Eurasian native ranges. It's probably not wrong to say that "Sigesbeckia orientalis is found in Mauritius", but it does rather imply that that's its entire native range, which is not the case. (You were right; GRIN considers it to be introduced to Mauritius.) --Stemonitis (talk) 13:58, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Wikispecies

Just a heads up notification that, on Wikispecies, User:Stho002 has unilaterally revised the higher classification of plants. He has not been open to discussing these changes, and blocked me (I'm an admin there) when I tried to intervene and requested that he discuss the changes.

As far as I can see, Stho002 blocked EncycloPetey, for one week, upgraded from a lesser block, for ignoring repeated requests to hold back and actually let Stho002 fix a specific problem that EncycloPetey has alerted him to, without reverting him at every stage. EncycloPetey is also an admin, and immediately unblocked himself/herself from the lesser block, only to revert Sthoo2 again and be blocked for longer. EncycloPetey did have the option of complaining to a beaureacrat or steward if he/she considered the block to be an abuse of Stho002's admin powers, but no such action appears to have been taken, or if it was, it was ineffectual ... RealityCzecher (talk) 20:24, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Among the difficulties created:

• "Plantae" on Wikispecies includes the red algae
• "Bryophyta" on Wikispecies is now paraphyletic with the liverworts and hornworts included); this choice appears to be largely based on a single 2011 paper that included only 5 bryophyte taxa in the analysis.

As far as I can see, the paraphyly of Bryophyta is entirely unsettled and disputed in the literature. Not only is monophyly supported by this recent paper:

* Shanker, A.; Sharma, V.; Daniell, H. 2011: Phylogenomic evidence of bryophytes’ monophyly using complete and incomplete data sets from chloroplast proteomes. Journal of plant biochemistry and biotechnology, 20(2): 288-292. doi: 10.1007/s13562-011-0054-5

but it is also treated as monophyletic in this recent publication:

* Gordon, D.P. (ed.) 2012: New Zealand inventory of biodiversity. Volume 3. Kingdoms Bacteria, Protozoa, Chromista, Plantae, Fungi. Canterbury University Press, Christchurch, New Zealand. ISBN 978-1-92714505-0

In fact, Stho002 has followed this book for most if not all of the plant classification. The book was written by the professional botanical community of New Zealand, with input from specialists overseas, led by the botanists of Landcare Research Ltd. (a Crown Research Institute). Does EncycloPetey think that he/she knows better?? ...RealityCzecher (talk) 20:33, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

• the pteridosperms are not part of "phylum Tracheophyta"
• "angiosperms" is unranked, but redirects to "Magnoliopsida", ranked as a class including all angiosperm orders.

The irony is that Stho002 insists that all classifications must be Linnaean, but he has replaced a plant classification system that was Linnaean (and used monophyletic groups) with one that is non-Linnaean and includes paraphyletic groups. I'm given up hope at Wikispecies, as Stho002 has become a monarchial dictator over the past few years, and brooks no debate. (my opinion) The rest of the community turns a blind eye to the changes, and focusses on parochial classification.

Just letting the community know of the difficulty, because this affects inter-project linking. --EncycloPetey (talk) 23:18, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

I first got involved editing Wikis at Wikispecies. My contributions trailed off before User:Stho002 was involved, bI've checked back in a few time in recent years. I'm appalled at how it's become a personal fiefdom, with consensus almost solely determined by one person. Dissent is handled by abuse of admin tools. Apparently if I want to contribute over there, I've got to figure out the right way of doings things via telepathy. If I do something the wrong way, I might end up blocked, but the vague style guidelines on the Help pages have barely changed in the last 5 years. Plantdrew (talk) 04:05, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

I was a full time editor there for a number of years, working on the fossil taxa. I ran afoul of Stho002 soon after he was granted admin status when I contested some of his revisions. Failry soon after that I was temporarily banned. After that point I watched his power grow and decided to move back to working on full articles here. I really wish there was some way to have his tools revoked for destruction of the project there. As a note, he tried to edit here for a little while, and ended up getting banned for the same behavior.--Kevmin § 07:05, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

I have heard nothing good about Wikispecies for some time now, probably since about the time Stho002 became king. I also have reservations (to put it mildly) about Stho002, since it was an interaction between him and myself that resulted in his indefinite block here (although he continues to add links to Wikispecies under a series of alternative accounts without, thus far, getting into mischief). It does seem that the Wikispecies project is being damaged by the presence of Stho002, but I can't think of any solutions to that problem. If we considered it a sufficiently serious failing, one step we could take (probably after agreeing it at a wider forum than this), would be to stop adding links to Wikispecies and to remove those that are present (they're almost all made through templates, so that could be easily achieved). WP:EL suggests we include links to "Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject and cannot be integrated into the Misplaced Pages article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks), or other reasons." One might argue that Wikispecies had ceased to be "neutral and accurate". Certainly we can question the addition of individual Wikispecies links; not all are helpful. Note that links to Wikimedia sister projects are only "links to be considered", rather than ones that "can normally be linked" according to WP:EL. We are not obliged to link to them. --Stemonitis (talk) 07:19, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support link removal - Interesting discussion about something that I hadn't personally encountered. The whole idea of wikispecies is arguably useless. It isn't the sort of system that would make a tool for taxonomists, namely one that can handle many different classifications and be used as a workbench for developing a classification. In its present form, it seems to add nothing but an interlingual version of what the wikipedias could provide. I've added quite a few links to wikispecies when I've added links to commons galleries, but will stop doing that. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 14:35, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support link removal. I can't see the point of Wikispecies in its present form. Even if there weren't problems with dictatorial editors, it simply doesn't offer the possibility of a nuanced discussion of alternative classifications which can be achieved in the more extensive articles of the various language Wikipedias. Inter-language links are best handled by Wikidata, I suspect, although there appear to be problematic editors who are blocked here editing over there as well. Sigh... Peter coxhead (talk) 18:18, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support I have been tempted to remove the links from articles I edited/created for some time now. Given the very tenuous nature of WS as a source and the highly destructive nature of hte current autocrat, I'm going ahead with removal of the links.--Kevmin § 03:05, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages can focus on the endless inconclusive debates of higher classification, while Wikispecies can choose one classification on pragmatic grounds, and focus instead on the nomenclature and bibliography of the individual species, which is what it was designed to do ... RealityCzecher (talk) 20:35, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Possibly have a check-user run on this account, as sockpuppetry is against policy.--Kevmin § 03:08, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

It would be stale. I don't think there's much question about the identity, but if we're having a semi-constructive dialog, I don't see the point in slamming the door just now. Choess (talk) 03:24, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Kevmin has started removing interwikis for no good reason, which I consider to be tantamount to vandalism (stated reason is erroneous, Wikispecies is no more a POV site than Misplaced Pages). I shall revert ...RealityCzecher (talk) 03:35, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Wikispecies was created to divert the energy of the TOL people, to stop them from creating "a million" species articles here (Look! Shiny!). We ignored that attempt, and built a huge collect of quality articles over here. I've never seen the point of that project. Guettarda (talk) 03:37, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Nevertheless, Wikispecies currently has a very large amount of useful content that Misplaced Pages lacks. The two projects ought to focus on their own particular strengths and WP editors ought to stop being so territorial ... RealityCzecher (talk) 03:40, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

As a note Sthoo2/RealityCzecker has not opened a complaint against me at The admin noticeboard over the removal of ws links.--Kevmin § 03:52, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Stephen, two points. First, on the specific set of changes to plant classification. I'm as aware as anyone that top-level phylogeny is an ambiguous mess (try explaining "protists" to a general biology class these days), but as a pragmatic question, having radically different classifications between Wikispecies and en.Misplaced Pages has the potentially to make those links something of an attractive nuisance here, if people wander in and try to change our taxonomy to that of Wikispecies. Since the taxonomic navigation is all template-driven, I'm not quite sure I see how having a shifting top-level phylogeny threatens species-level classification at Wikispecies, or precisely what the virtue of the new classification over the old is. With respect to Gordon and associates, if they, like Wikispecies, are principally concerned with alpha taxonomy, their choice of higher-level taxonomy may reflect convenience over accuracy. (I have the impression that this was a fairly common response to the unsettled conditions which prevailed until recently in the suprageneric classifications in monilophytes, for instance.) In any case, the rationale for the changes seems a little unclear to me here, and I don't see any announcement on the Village Pump at Wikispecies.

Second, as regards governance in general. The principle "no man shall be a judge in his own case" long predates en.Misplaced Pages, so when I say it's odd to be blocking someone to settle your dispute, I don't think that's just a quirk of Wikipedian culture. It might be wise to consider a less arbitrary mode of operations on Wikispecies. I realize it's undoubtedly convenient to be able to make sweeping changes without having to engage in elaborate processes of consultation, but it's very discouraging to editors to be subjected to them without forewarning or clear rationale (see Plantdrew's comment above), and the deterrent effect on volunteer work probably exceeds your own savings in time. Choess (talk) 04:16, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Redirection removal proposal

I would like to suggest that the redirection of Ligusticum lucidum to Ligusticum huteri should be removed. As you can see on EOL’s website, the species Ligusticum lucidum is not a synonym of Ligusticum huteri . Only the subspecies Ligusticum lucidum ssp. huteri is a synonym of Ligusticum huteri.--Laia-M. 09:11, 18 November 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laia lion (talk • contribs)

 Done. --Stemonitis (talk) 09:47, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

• Project-Class plant pages
• NA-importance plant pages
• WikiProject Plants articles