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Urartu TH
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Urartu TH
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Grandmaster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 08:32, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Urartu TH (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:AA2
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Warned on February 21, 2014 by Grandmaster (talk · contribs)
- Warned on March 15, 2014 by Sandstein (talk · contribs)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Urartu TH violated 3RR on an arbitration covered page Khojaly Massacre. Despite objections of other editors, he persistently adds his personal interpretation of a source into the lead of the article in violation of WP:OR, and edit wars to keep it there. I have already reported the 3RR violation, but since this is an arbitration area, this forum might be more appropriate for this violation. This user has been in Misplaced Pages for less than 2 months, but he already has one block for incivility. In addition, he makes questionable edits to Ukraine related articles, such as a BLP article Ihor Tenyukh, which as I understand is also an arbitration covered area, in particular calling him a member of a "neo-fascist" party: It appears that this user fails to understand the core WP policies such as WP:NPOV, WP:OR and WP:BLP. Grandmaster 08:32, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
As result of the report at WP:AN3, Urartu TH was blocked for 72 hrs: , in escalation of the previous block. As the enforcing admin noted, it is a second block in 3 weeks, and it is a result of continuing battleground approach. As the problematic editing of Urartu TH appears to be unlikely to stop, I believe it might be appropriate to consider placing him on an editing restriction in arbitration covered areas. Grandmaster 13:10, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
I would like to add the following in response to comments. First, the term "reprisal" is not found in any of the sources used in the article, and in particular in HRW report that Urartu TH was referring to. Neither are the terms "retaliation", "counterattack" or other words with similar meaning, nor do the sources imply that the massacre could have been a "reprisal", which as was noted here has quite a specific meaning. In fact, HRW explicitly places blame on the Armenian side, as do other third party sources that conducted their own investigations. So the edit was in a clear violation of WP:OR, which holds that "Source material should be carefully summarized or rephrased without changing its meaning or implication". Yet Urartu TH was introducing the term "reprisal" not found in any source, and as was also mentioned here was removing every instance of mentioning "Armenian forces" or "Armenian attack", so after his edits it was unclear who attacked whom. Me and other editors found his edit to be unacceptable, and made that clear to him both in edit summaries and at the talk of the article, which did not stop him from restoring that edit 4 times. And when Urartu TH says that I reverted without discussion, it is not true. It is enough to take a look at the talk of the article to see the proof of the contrary. Every time that he posted at talk in support of his edit, he was responded by either me or another editor, and despite there being a clear opposition to his edit, he proceeded to restore it every time he left a comment at talk. Judging from comments he left at his own talk page, where he says that his comments were "ignored", he believes that posting a comment entitles him to rv the page as many times as he likes, even if other editors disagree with his proposed edit, and if they disagree, they "ignore" his arguments, which of course is not so. I think this is where we have a problem. Grandmaster 10:31, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Urartu TH
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Urartu TH
Please note that Grandmaster (talk · contribs) has been asked to mind WP:HOUND in the past.
As to the issue at hand, any time I have attempted cited edits on Khojaly tragedy, the user has either deleted or modified the edits.
Please see for attempts at resolution in civil manner:
The user has been warned not to start an WP:EDITWAR various times in the article's edit page.
I have not added a single bit of interpretation to any edit. I merely used the word "reprisal" to define an attack by Armenian forces during the battle of Khojaly which relates to the article. I was opposed by the user in regards to this word. I explained that the chronology of the events clearly show that this was a reprisal attack but that a different term may be used. The user proceeded to simply begin reverting the page back to the previous form without discussion; they ignored my statements regarding the chronology of the events. I believe this is a violation of WP:CIV, WP:NPOV and goes against the spirit and reasons for WP:TP's.
Grandmaster (talk · contribs)'s attempt to have me sanctioned for an unrelated matter was deemed "not actionable" by Sandstein (talk · contribs) and Penwhale (talk · contribs).
As far the the Ukraine edits, the terms "neo-fascist" or "neo-nazi" were taken from a cited source .
I don't see evidence of wrongdoing on my part and would like to further discuss this with a third-party. Please let me know if any other proofs are required and I will gladly provide them.--Urartu TH (talk) 09:22, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Statement by NE Ent
I think ya'll can DS individual editors but I don't think you can 1RR the entire article NE Ent 20:03, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Urartu TH
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- I see a quite clear 3RR violation (4 reverts in quick succession, within a single hour, against three different users on the other side); combined with an ongoing pattern of aggressive editing and reverting during the previous days; combined with previous warnings and blocks for misbehaviour in the same topic domain, combined with an overall editing profile almost exclusively focussed on national POV issues. That's a case for a topic ban in my book. I notice somebody else blocked him for 72 hours in the meantime, evidently in response to the AN3 report, but I see no reason why that should stop us from considering the longterm side of the matter here too. Fut.Perf. ☼, 16:45, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
- The thing is, I believe Grandmaster's 2 reverts also makes him run afoul of the AA2 DS (and Grandmaster was previously sanctioned under ARBAA2 in 2008). And the word reprisal's primary meaning according to many dictionaries is counterattack, and if I'm reading the events chronologically, it is a counteroffensive (though may not be the best choice of word, it shouldn't have been reverted war over anyway). I would sanction both Grandmaster and Urartu TH for this. - Penwhale | 17:12, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
- We are probably going down a dangerous road when we here as admins try to re-debate the merits of the dispute, but since you brought up a possible content legitimization regarding the term "reprisal", then no, "reprisal" doesn't simply mean "counter-attack". It has a very specific meaning in the law of war, and that meaning carries a very strong and obvious POV implication: a reprisal is a measure that, while normally forbidden, can be seen as legitimate in a particular situation. Calling the massacre a "reprisal" is making the definite claim that the massacre was legally justified. The immediate rejection of that edit as illegitimate OR by three other editors was thus understandable and clearly legitimate. Coupled with the other change of wording that served to de-emphasize Armenian agency in the events, we have all the marks of a POV-driven edit on Urartu's part. As for the two reverts, I'm extremely hesitant to hand out sanctions for 2R as long as we haven't formally put the thing under an explicit 1RR rule. If you think that a general 1RR would be beneficial to the article, let's by all means place it under one (I assume that's possible under the current version of disc.sanctions, isn't it?) but as long as that's not in place, I believe editors are entitled to a certain measure of reliability of rules, and suddenly placing the sanctions threshold that low would smack of arbitrariness. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:52, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
- You are right. Also, based on the discussions at the article talk page, this article already needs specific sanctions set down. 1RR and a binding move discussion for a specific period of time (if a RM is requested) would be a good start. - Penwhale | 02:41, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
- Addendum: Also, my AGF-ness still leads me to believe that the block placed on Urartu TH is due to violation of the 3RR rule and not specific to the ARBAA2 sanction, in case anyone's wondering my position on that. - Penwhale | 02:42, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment: Yes, my block was based on the 3RR report - I was unaware of the existence of this filing at that time DP 10:40, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
- Looks like everyone's attention has moved away from this request since the block. If there are no objections I'll close it tomorrow with an un-logged warning based on what was mentioned by the admins reviewing this request. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 10:22, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
- I'm a little concerned by their actions since the 3RR block - they seem totally oblivious to their actions, and seem to feel they're under no warnings or potential sanctions whatsoever ES&L 10:59, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
- Apart from a topic ban or a block until they understand what edit warring is (which would and should be a normal admin action) I'm not sure there is a lot we can do here. @DP, do you think it's enough to warrant a TBAN? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 10:05, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
- Having just re-read a bunch of their edits, I'm almost thinking 0RR being imposed as the next step before a TBAN. DP 10:13, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
- Apart from a topic ban or a block until they understand what edit warring is (which would and should be a normal admin action) I'm not sure there is a lot we can do here. @DP, do you think it's enough to warrant a TBAN? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 10:05, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
- I'm a little concerned by their actions since the 3RR block - they seem totally oblivious to their actions, and seem to feel they're under no warnings or potential sanctions whatsoever ES&L 10:59, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Rich Farmbrough
Referred to the Arbitration Committee, please see WP:ARCA#Clarification request: Rich Farmbrough. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:01, 9 April 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Rich Farmbrough
And about ten further instances of the same pattern. Perhap others will see this as a manual edit nevertheless, but to me it certainly matches "For the purposes of this remedy, any edits that reasonably appear to be automated shall be assumed to be so.".
While the first (and most obvious) violation is in userspace (which falls under the restriction but is of course less critical than the mainspace), I don't think it makes sense to wait until it goes really, badly wrong again; that was the reason the restriction was implemented, to prevent further problems. Not following the restriction, so soon after coming back from a year-long block for the same, seems a clear case of having no intention to follow the restriction at all.
Discussion concerning Rich FarmbroughStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Rich Farmbrough1. "An automation tool is a technology designed to facilitate making multiple similar edits" (Principle 3.1) Therefore the suggestion that search-and-replace or cut-and-paste is automation is absurd. Even the test for automation in Identifying the use of automation tools says "including the speed, number, timing, and consistency of the edits" we are not talking about the odd edit here or there. Clearly any stray edit can be reverted, the concern (allegedly) was that many "wrong" edits in quick succession could be made. That is clearly not the case here. To attempt to apply this ruling to the edits given is absurd. 2. In the complaint comparing * and (a) - the plaintiff has simply, in his eagerness for blood, gone to the wrong source. 3. In the other diff, it is unbelievable, uncollegial, and anti-encyclopaedic to attempt to to get an editor blocked for working on a "wanted articles" list in their own namespace. 4. Sandstein says "The edits submitted as evidence can only be the result of an (apparently malformed) search-and-replace command." He is wrong, as demonstrated explicitly in point 2. above. 5. Further Sandstein said previously that this edit appeared automated. He was wrong in any interpretation, he was looking at the wrong diff here is the single character edit I actually made. 6. Sandstein closed the previous request very hastily, in the edit immediately after requesting "go-ahead" from arbcom - without notifying me that he believed that he had received it. 7. It is clear that one arbitrator may not speak for the committee, without previous discussion taking place, and that should have been apparent to Sandstein. 8. In his preliminary response to this request Sandstein has looked for a different "remedy" under which to sanction me, as in the previous request he looked for (and failed to find) additional reasons to sanction. 9. It is unclear why Sandstein has gone to extra lengths to support the casus belli but I would have thought that he could raise a request for arbitration enforcement himself, rather than becoming a party and judge at the same time. 9. It is clear that the edits to a user-space list have not caused a problem, nor are that likely to. Sandstein argues elsewhere that " Whether the specific edits at issue are harmful or not does not really matter. What matters is that the Arbitration Committee has made a binding decision that any and all automated edits by Rich Farmbrough are prohibited." 10. This is a moot point. If we take the dicta WP:AGF and WP:IAR to heart, we might think that it is better to have copyright violations removed from the encyclopaedia (which I have done), and incorrect facts removed from the encyclopaedia (which I have done) that to enable those who cry foul over putative uses of search-and-replace or cut-and-paste, especially in a wanted articles user page. 11. Moreover if one interprets the additional "remedy" the way soem have done, I am breaking it by responding here, and cutting-and-paste-ing diffs and quotes. 12. I did not protest the previous block, because I did not wish to be divisive. I still think that it was a bad block. 13. Sandstein says "In this case, Rich Farmbrough has made it clear through his statements and his conduct that he does not intend to comply with the restriction" 13. a. It is clear that the restriction is badly worded. 13. b. Sandstein was clearly aware that I was requesting that restriction to be lifted. 14. Sandstein further remarked "if Rich Farmbrough convinces me that he understands that he must unconditionally observe all of the restrictions that apply to him, and that he intends to do so in the future, I'll unblock him at once" 15. This offer was not made to me. Maybe Sandstein could convince me of its sincerity, but he'd really have to be quite convincing. 16. Strangely the AE was allowed to proceed on the basis that the amendment was moot, and the amendment was declared moot on the basis that the AE was proceeding. A procedural irregularity that would make Kafka blush. 15. To sum up, this is a trivial complaint that should be rejected on a de minimus basis. Sandstein is giving every evidence of partiality, has made two demonstrable errors, and should remove himself from the request. The Arbitration Committee should take notice of the abuse of their remedies, and strike, by motion, those they see fit. All the best, Rich Farmbrough, 20:56, 8 April 2014 (UTC).
@Quest: Automation was defined in the decision thus: "An automation tool is a technology designed to facilitate making multiple similar edits". I believe that was point 1 in my notes above. Should you wish to read the rest of my notes, you might find other informative tit-bits. All the best, Rich Farmbrough, 00:12, 9 April 2014 (UTC).
Statement by Only in DeathWhile I agree with HJ Mitchell its harsh, Rich is under an un-ambiguous editing restricting. He must not, at all, make any edits that are automated or appear to be automated. No ifs or buts. This has been explained to him multiple times by a number of people in various locations, including admins here and members of Arbcom. On the other hand, the theory of escalating blocks is that you keep blocking for longer until the editor gets the point. Its pretty clear that that he either a)is incapable of getting the point or b)willfully ignoring it because he doesnt agree with it. Either of which means another block is fairly pointless as a deterrant. At this point stick an indef block on and refer it to arbcom since they caused the restriction in the first place. Only in death does duty end (talk) 22:35, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Statement by uninvolved A Quest for KnowledgeI hadn't planned on commenting, but I am taken aback by the suggestion that Find and Replace searches aren't automated searches. As a software developer for the past 15+ years, I can say that using a text editor's search and replacement feature is absolutely an automated process and one that requires special attention to each and every edit. While I don't know the specifics of RF's ArbCom history, apparently this user has screwed this up so many times that the community has decided that they cannot be trusted to do this again. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2014 (UTC) Comment by Beyond My KenJust a reminder to the admins discussing below that it is not the function of the administrative participants on AE to substitute their own judgment for that of the Arbitration Committee which applied the particular sanction that is the subject of an AE complaint. In this case, the wording of the sanction makes it abundantly clear that anything which can reasonably be thought of as being automation, is indeed automation for the purpose of the sanction. As the two comments directly above this indicate, even though search and replace has become so commonplace that it no longer seems to most of us to be "automation", it is indeed an automated process in which an edit is made not directly by the editor but by a software routine under the direction of the editor. This is, without any doubt, "automation", and is therefore subject to the sanction.Those who feel such a definition is nonsensical may have a point, even an excellent point, but it's not a point which has any relevance here, it's one that should be directed to an appeal of the sanction. That's not the function of AE, which is to enforce sanctions as they stand, regardless of whether the admins involved in the discussion agree with the sanction or not. Anything else invites the undermining of ArbCom decisions, which are supposed to be final and binding on the entire community. BMK (talk) 00:46, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Statement by JohnuniqArbcom's remedy should not be read in isolation, and the Findings of fact make it clear that "automation" is referring to repeated edits of the same kind over multiple articles. For example, the "violations of restrictions" finding shows examples like this which is one in a series with edit summary "Delink date fragment or minor clean up using AWB". Other findings refer to the mass creation of categories and the undisclosed use of automation with "numerous examples of high-volume, high-speed sequences of identical edits". Those are the kind of problems that led to the case, and which were discussed during the case, and which the remedy was framed to address. Arbcom intended to stop the disruption caused by bot-like edits to multiple pages; there is no indication that search-and-replace on a single page (and not repeated on any page) was prohibited. Yes, the search-and-replace was borked, but editors are encouraged to experiment in their own user space. If RF made a careless edit like that in an article, there may be some reason to debate a suitable sanction, but AE should not be used for a pointless "gotcha". Johnuniq (talk) 02:59, 9 April 2014 (UTC) Statement by Aprock1. Search and replace is undoubtedly, undeniably, and unequivocally automated editing. 2. If the only occurrence of automated testing is on Rich's own user page, the filer should get a WP:TROUT and this closed as WP:SNOW. aprock (talk) 04:50, 9 April 2014 (UTC) Statement by FramI just want to reply to the statement by Rich Farmbrough, "2. In the complaint comparing * and (a) - the plaintiff has simply, in his eagerness for blood, gone to the wrong source.". Without providing the right source, either here or at the article (which really should have had a source from the start), this is of course a worthless defense. I have provided the evidence on which I based my statement: my conclusion may have been wrong, but without evidence to the contrary, I see no reason to change my opinion. Without evidence for point 2, there is also no support for his further points (4 and following), since these are based on 2. His edit here makes it clear that they were footnote identifiers, like I said. Fram (talk) 07:06, 9 April 2014 (UTC) Result concerning Rich FarmbroughThis section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
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Rim sim
Rim sim is blocked for one week and topic banned from everything related to India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, broadly construed, anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:56, 11 April 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Rim sim
Discussion concerning Rim simStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Rim simStatement by (username)Result concerning Rim simThis section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
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LokiiT
LokiiT is blocked for a week. Sandstein 11:50, 11 April 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning LokiiT
I don't really care about the usual accusations that get thrown around in these kinds of discussions about "POV pushing" and all that, I got thick skin. However, I find the accusations of bigotry, racism and xenophobia to be appalling, unacceptable and too much too just let go. Of course there's no diffs, or evidence to support these slurs - because they are untrue. The fact that they've been directed not just at myself but also at other users is pretty clear evidence that LokiiT has a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and is not here to constructively improve the encyclopedia, this topic area in particular. For a bit of background, LokiiT was extremely active in the EE area during the 2008_South_Ossetia_war. At the time his behavior was very similar to his current actions on Ukraine related topics, and he got a couple of blocks. He edit warred, and after being blocked for edit warring he turned to running a sock farm to try and get his way on the relevant articles. I think there is a strong basis for a concern that at least part of that pattern is being repeated on Ukraine and Crimea related topics. Also, I did ask him to remove the attacks first, but no go
Discussion concerning LokiiTStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by LokiiTThis seems like little more than a personal vendetta, as Marek has gone to great lengths to provoke me over the past month or so via bad faith accusations, stalking, edit warring/tag teaming, and blanking material that I've added to various articles, with edit summaries that would suggest he did not read the talk page, content or sources at all. His behaviour has been in line with the disruptive tactics used by members of the Eastern Europe Cabal that Marek (aka Radeksz) was an active member of, hence my comment in his the first link (note the comment I was responding to; I'm not the only one to notice his disruptive editing habits, although admittedly that was a bad place to bring the issue up). My edits to[REDACTED] articles are always in good faith and always well sourced. I try my hardest to keep content neutral, which seems to have displeased a few pro-Ukrainian editors. I have strong opinions which I have expressed on talk pages; I don't claim to have neutral opinions. But I try not to let this effect my editing habits and do make an effort to correct for my biases. I'm not sure what sockpuppets 6 years ago have to do with this. It's unclear to me whether Marek is accusing me of sockpuppeting right now, or trying to create an illusion of ongoing disruption. Moreover, I have not accused anyone of being bigoted or racist as Marek claims. He must have me confused with someone else. On a final and important note: I was not active between the time he asked me to remove my comment and his second message informing me of this enforcement request; I saw both messages just now when I logged in. I have no issue with removing the comment and will do so now.
Statement by (username)Statement by Lvivske"Moreover, I have not accused anyone of being bigoted or racist as Marek claims." was somehow a response to this: "Oops, your xenophobia is showing."....can we at least be honest here?--Львівське (говорити) 14:40, 10 April 2014 (UTC) Result concerning LokiiTThis section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
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