Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by TParis (talk | contribs) at 19:24, 17 June 2014 (→Does this accurately reflect your views on COI editing?: Actually, the oversight team came back and said that it was no outing because the editor disclosed their name on Meta. Smallbones outed himself in [https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=U). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are SJ, Phoebe, and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is Maggie Dennis.

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Alleluia! See WP:Statement on Misplaced Pages from participating communications firms

Or see Ad Age

I see this as a key turning point for Misplaced Pages (assuming the ToU changes are also put through).

Remember when the BLP policy went thru? Everybody thought it would be difficult or impossible to enforce and would bring Misplaced Pages down by violating our first principles. Instead it marked a new life for us as readers and new editors started taking us seriously. I predict that's what will happen this time as well. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 21:56, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree. A great opportunity is upon us.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:04, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

• I was invited to the meeting at the Donovan House that ended with this agreement; sadly my grant request was turned down and I was unable to attend. That said, Ive stayed in pretty constant contact with the organizers of the event, as well as some of the participants. In my estimation, the PR people involved in this are being deadly serious in their positions. This is, I think, likely to provide us with our best chance to-date to integrate PR editors in to Misplaced Pages's workflow in a way that doesn't damage the integrity of the encyclopedia (and helps us cover undercovered areas better,) and at the same time discourage people and companies from using under the radar Wiki-PR style groups. I honestly believe that this has a significant chance of representing a turning point in our relationship with the PR industry. Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:09, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

• There have always been a number of "Good Guy" PR firms, including many of those in CREWE. They aren't the problem. They might be part of the solution, in that they will be looking to establish new editing structures to address the legitimate concerns of their clients, but this group of companies saying they are going to play by the rules (implicitly under the assumption that the rules will be fair to them) doesn't affect the broad situation in which WP content writing is a growth industry for freelancers, in which companies of smaller and smaller size are coming to see WP presence as an essential part of their marketing efforts, in which there are absolutely no fetters upon the creation of multiple accounts and paid COI editors flying under the radar. It's an opportunity for an alternative editing process to emerge, yes, but I still don't see anything from WMF but continuing efforts to ratchet up the rhetoric and the war with paid COI editors — which will continue to drive things underground, away from supervision and control. Carrite (talk) 23:10, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't see that at all. Rather quite the opposite. The path forward is to reward and encourage disclosure and ethical behavior (i.e. to drive things in public, toward supervision and control). I wonder, though, rather than just being negative about other people's efforts to deal with what I think you agree is a problem, why don't you give us some detail about what you would do differently.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:21, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, I think the basic question is this: do we believe in anonymity of contributors and ease of entry as our fundamental principle, or do we believe in validity of content and transparency of contributorship as our fundamental principle? We cannot have it both ways. If we really want to ban paid COI editing, it is going to require real name registration, one user-name per account, sign in to edit, and an end to so-called "outing" prohibitions — things that can be determined by WMF as part of Terms of Service. The cost will be the loss of perhaps 25 to 50% of the editor base. If we want to maintain anonymity and ease of entry into editorship and current outing rules, we need to accept that paid COI editing is a fact of life and to split the difference with these editors: mandating disclosure but banning retribution against those who disclose. The software can be tweaked so that COI edits can be identified with a button the same way that minor edits are identified with a button. The key will be to keep an eye on paid COI edits without pursuing paid COI editors like they are outlaws and villains — giving them space to work and parameters of good behavior. Treating them like gophers to be shot on sight will just force them underground. It will be a cultural change either way. The current stalemate is sort of the worst of both worlds, easy underground shenanigans and an officially authorized "game" of liquidating those who engage in underground shenanigans. It all comes down to a fundamental decision about anonymity vs. transparency. Myself? I'm for transparency. Carrite (talk) 01:18, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. These are thoughtful remarks and much better than the innuendo and snark that are too often present here. I don't have time for a full response at the moment, not to mention that a full response requires some thought, but I invite you (and others) to think about third way approaches. That is - there is value in both ease of entry and (in some cases) anonymity, and there is value in validity of content and transparency of contributorship. AND, this is key, the two are only sometimes in tension. In many or most cases, ease of entry and validity of content are perfectly aligned. As are anonymity and validity of content.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:23, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

A quick response: there is comparatively little tension between anonymity/ease of entry with historically "encyclopedic" content. There is a great deal of tension between those things and commercial or contemporary biographical content, which involves self-interested parties on the one hand and really boring, volunteer-repelling topics on the other. Community notability rules aren't going to change, tweaking those is not a viable solution. It is a puzzle. The key thing is this: I think every single one of us agree that NPOV content is essential and that unsupervised and left to their own devices, paid COI editors will not tend to produce NPOV content. The question is how to eliminate the problem, not that there is a problem. Either we regulate paid COI editors under the current system or fight an unending and ultimately unwinnable war of annihilation; or else we accept that the days of IP editing and 40 socks per customer are relics of the past and actually do annihilate paid COI editing. I honestly can't see how one can split the difference on this matter. —Tim Davenport, Corvallis, OR /// Carrite (talk) 01:44, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I was surprised there was not more support for corporate accounts, which would make COI edits much easier to identify, whether it is on Talk or in History. Also, if companies opt-in to a corporate account, that makes it easy to create a category of accounts that can be supervised/reviewed and easier to contribute on behalf of a company without disclosing your volunteer account or personal information. Just like accounts get upgraded to auto-confirmed, I could see new corporate accounts having no article-space privileges, but after a certain point they can request permission for a Pending Changes-type situation (pending changes reviewers would have to learn to revert anything controversial and tell them to take those items to Talk). Rather than review each edit individually, volunteers can conduct quarterly reviews of all corporate accounts and blanket revert with a button-press if their edits are 75%+ bad.

However, several editors I have talked to have sarcastically asked the question as to whether WMF would develop the software for new features for PR participation, especially given that COI editing (participation?) is strongly discouraged. And I'm sure they have lots of features on the wish list for the volunteer community as it is. CorporateM (Talk) 02:51, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

One solution which can go a long way without changing identification requirements is make special sourcing requirements for information on currently operating businesses, business leaders, and currently marketed products. Instead of applying general RS guidelines, allow only facts sourced to reputable academic sources on the one hand, and a more limited whitelist of news and business sources on the otherhand. This whitelist could list just well-established newspapers and business magazines (New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Businessweek etc.) and the requirement be that only regular reportage (not advertorials or anything unusual) among those whitelisted could be used to source claims. This wouldn't solve everything, but would go a long way as much of the material that paid advocates add are sourced to lesser-quality sources and self-published sources which nonetheless still meet basic RS requirements. With a whitelist requirement like this, much could be summarily removed without much fuss. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 04:11, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Though I don't necessarily agree with everything that Carrite is recommending, his comments are incisive, thoughtful and worthy of consideration. I disagree that formal "corporate accounts" are a good thing, as that erodes our key value that editors are individuals rather than groups. I have a lot of concerns with this declaration by 11 PR firms. The signatories have Misplaced Pages accounts, most with only a handful of edits, mostly to their own user pages. If they truly want to engage with Misplaced Pages, the way to do so is by editing productively, in addition to issuing grand declarations. Are other people from those firms editing? If so, who are those accounts? And if 11 firms commit to following our policies and guidelines, how about the hundreds of firms that haven't? Cullen Let's discuss it 04:23, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I think it would be nearly enough to simply forbid undisclosed alternate accounts and beef up our data collection enough to do a decent job of preventing socking (which we could do virtually automatically for most editors, given software that made a robust effort at doing so). The privacy concerns are pretty negligible to my mind: there may be the occasional nuclear physicist and scat porn enthusiast that wouldn't want to use one account to edit both topics, but we can live without one or the other set of contributions.—Kww(talk) 05:29, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I've been saying this for a while now that it doesn't seem like it would be hard to automatically track MAC addresses, device IDs and other anonymous, non-personal information and automatically detect socks without interrupting the user experience of non-socking users. This wouldn't even have to prevent legitimate alternate accounts if there is a way to add exceptions into the system. It would become very difficult to sock if each the user had to use a different computer for each sockpuppet account. CorporateM (Talk) 15:46, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

@CorporateM: This is wrong for several reasons. To begin with, supposedly the MAC address should not be accessible to a website. There's been some hinting in the leaks that the NSA uses it somehow, but I don't know where to access it in a PHP file. Same with device IDs. So I think you're talking about getting editors to install a client, which is just poison -- you would lose three quarters of them in a day, the client would be a huge security vulnerability, and someone might still find a good way to hack the system (for example, some MAC addresses can be changed). Also, the idea is defective in that lots of people have several computers - desktop, laptop, a few terminals at work if they're a little naughty, mobile/tablet/whatever. While others share the terminals at the public library, especially if they actually went there to research something. Wnt (talk) 21:48, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

As a representative of one of the agencies involved--Peppercomm--I created an account so that I could answer any questions people have and so that anyone on Misplaced Pages would have a means through which to contact me. My answer is solely for Peppercomm's situation; I can't speak about any other agency involved. I have never had another account, and I don't edit Misplaced Pages pages professionally (and, as Cullen328 points out, haven't done anything of substance editing on Misplaced Pages personally, either). Likewise, none of our employees are tasked with doing paid editing or even intervention on Misplaced Pages for our clients--nor do we hire freelancers to do so. In our agency's case, we counsel on what NOT to do. If they believe, however, that there is an inaccuracy or situation that requires some sort of discussion with Misplaced Pages editors, we have gone to an outside firm we trust who knows the Misplaced Pages editor community much more deeply than we do--in particular, in our case, Beutler Ink--to ensure that any requested edit our client wishes to make is done in an ethical, transparent manner that abides by all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. To NOT edit pages has been Peppercomm's policy since at least 2008, when I joined the firm full-time...and, it seemed, had been the policy prior to my arrival as well. Our 11 companies issued this statement to make it clear to the Misplaced Pages community that many of us do have policies in place to align with Misplaced Pages's policies & guidelines--& Wikimedia's ToS (although our exact approaches and policies may differ). And our hope is that others will sign on or, if they don't already have these policies in place, will start to think about why they should. To be frank, intentional sockpuppetry and other forms of editing are one thing--but as substantial a problem are corporate employees or people at agencies who "don't know enough about Misplaced Pages to know what they don't know"...who understand this is an "encyclopedia anyone can edit" part but not COI and other very important parts of what makes Misplaced Pages what it is...Leumas712 (talk) 08:07, 12 June 2014 (UTC)Leumas712

• For those of us who (like me) haven't been following the TOU discussion recently, is this still the wording that is going to be added? Coretheapple (talk) 17:35, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

If you're going to only allow sources like the New York Times for businesses, what do you do about businesses that cater to specialized markets? I remember Jimbo trying to make an article about a restaurant in South Africa. Good luck trying to find information in the New York Times on that. You probably wouldn't even find much about, oh, an anime producer, and even if you can find enough to create an article, all the existing articles on such companies would have to be rewritten with new sources.

I think the mistake here is trying to figure out how you can prevent COI editing and only thinking about the particular type of business likely to engage in COI editing. Having standards which limit the usable sources would help in articles about those kinds of businesses, but would completely destroy articles on others. Ken Arromdee (talk) 17:59, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

What makes you think that South Africa does not have any well established newspapers? Or that they might not report on small restaurants from time to time, if they considered the restaurant worthy of note for some reason? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:20, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

The idea was that articles about businesses could only be sourced to a particular set of whitelisted sources. I highly doubt that such a whitelist would initially have South African newspapers in it, or Animne News Network for anime companies, for that matter.

Of course, you could always look at the article after it's created, and only decide at that moment to add the South African newspaper to the whitelist. But that's basically what we do anyway every time we edit an article and remove material because a bad source was given. The only difference is that with the new method, after we decide the source isn't bad and that the material is okay to keep in the article, we add it to the whitelist, but it doesn't actually change how the article itself is created.

And how does that apply to the example of the anime company? You could probably find New York Times articles eventually, but saying that we can't use sources like Anime News Network is absurd. (And I doubt that anyone creating a whitelist ahead of time would put Anime News Network on it.) Ken Arromdee (talk) 17:33, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

It's true that much material would be removed. But that's true whenever notability and RS requirements are tightened. Imagine our current notability and RS standards were far lower than they actually are. We would have a lot of material which wouldn't otherwise be there. Then imagine we brought standards up to the actual current standards. A lot of material would be removed. Is that a bad thing? Of course not: It just means we are better enforcing the requirement that we make an encyclopedia, and not a indiscriminate collection of information. My suggestion is that for the particular class of articles at issue, a further tightening of these requirements would be an improvement.

Sure, it's absurd not to use the Anime News Network (at least, I believe you, I'm not sure what it is). That's why it would be added to the whitelist. Here's an example method of implementation for avoiding the problem you mention of not having the right things whitelisted: Create the putative whitelist over a long period, even years, while it is non-binding. Interested parties can discuss with adequate time as to what is appropriate and what is inappropriate for the list. This would involve looking at what sources are working well for this class of COI-prone articles and what are not working well. This could be done right now, without any wider community approval. If the community approves of it at a later time, then it can be implemented as binding then. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 18:17, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Anime News Network is just an example. The more general point is that lots of specialized subject areas are going to have specialized sources that you could not conceivably put in a whitelist ahead of time. And "companies" is going to cover articles in a huge range of specialized subject areas.

Looking at sources ahead of time to decide what to put on the whitelist won't work because you'd have to do that individually for each subject area that might have an article about a company someday--which means you'd have to do it for each subject on Misplaced Pages. Ken Arromdee (talk) 20:27, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

It is rather, say, irritating that the Englisch WP community allows for the public relations and advertising industry to use the Misplaced Pages namespace for a press release. We should rather reflect on why we have not succeeded to exclude those people from WP altogether.--Aschmidt (talk) 18:14, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree, because it is a given that reputable corporations, including PR firms, will not violate website terms of use. That is not a cause for celebration. Most reputable and indeed some not-so-reputable PR people and corporate executives already abide by the TOU amendment (assuming it is what was originally proposed; nobody has yet addressed my question above). While this has been billed as the beginning of \the end of paid editing, in practical terms it seems more like an acceptance of paid advocacy editing. Coretheapple (talk) 19:07, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

+1. Indeed, this page should be deleted because it violates our rules for the Misplaced Pages namespace. It should not be tolerated that those companies misuse Misplaced Pages for their business communication. Misplaced Pages is not an outlet for press releases. It is financed by donors who give their money for an educational project.--Aschmidt (talk) 19:29, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

It strikes me as a form of advertising, especially for the less well-known firms and PR people signing on. Seriously, every Tom, Dick or Harry who wants a client, such as my personal firm Coretheapple Communications LLC, can and will sign on. Seems promotional. Coretheapple (talk) 19:54, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the nauseating and cowardly remarks made by Wikiconference USA attendees

I hope those attendees of the recent Wikiconference USA in New York who were discussing LilaTretikov and Wllm behind their backs, suggesting that the WMF's new ED should dump her partner, or banish him from the WMF world, are proud of themselves. "Multiple influential people", says Kevin Gorman. If any of them are reading this, I'll eat my hat if they have the spine to identify themselves in public and stand behind their grotesquely inappropriate comments. — Scott • talk 20:52, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Grotesquely inappropriate is exactly right, under any circumstances. – SJ + 00:51, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I was present for the conference and heard no such remarks at all. What is the source for this gossip? Did you attend the conference, Scott? Liz 04:25, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

There's a link in my post. Try clicking it. — Scott • talk 17:56, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Is anyone else getting "PirritSuggester" malware ads after accessing the Wikipediocracy site? I just did a system restore going back 3 weeks, and it seemed to get rid of them, but as soon as I access Wikipediocracy, the adware starts to appear, and my privacy settings show a huge of cookies being added. I'm seeing the same thing on wllm's personal blog. adnxs.com and pirrit.com seems to be the more intrusive ones, adding links and ads in the middle of text I am trying to read. —Neotarf (talk) 21:22, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Nope, never had anything like that from either site. 'Course, I use Firefox... 28bytes (talk) 21:35, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

So do I. And I have Windows Essentials enabled. This is something new. —Neotarf (talk) 21:39, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Nope. Must be somewhere else you've been. John lilburne (talk) 21:43, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Okay, thanks, I'm getting it now on other sites, where I might be expected to use a credit card online. <sigh> —Neotarf (talk) 22:00, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

• /Sigh - sad to see this come up here. Wllm, none of my emails to you were unsolicited except the very first which you responded warmly to, and I'm disappointed that you chose to post a chunk of an email from me related to sensitive issues publicly. To those wondering, yes, I did send Wil an email where that was part of a longer chunk. I don't want to say what he posted was 100% accurate because I haven't compared them side by side, but it can probably be assumed to be. I would have responded to your post on the talk page if I had seen it, but haven't been monitoring the talk page regularly as I'm only now finally fully back to having internet access, being thoroughly in the bay, etc.

I have never tried to meddle in Wil's relationship, except to point out to him that some of his actions were actively sabotaging the impressions movement members were forming of Lila in her first few weeks on her new job, and by asking him to reconsider how hard and how fast he was diving in to certain controversial areas. Though now restored to internet access, I'm pretty much going to stay away from this thread except to say that I think Lila's performance so far shows that she holds a lot of promise as a replacement for Sue, something that took a bloody hard search to find. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:39, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

And why would it be any of their business, and why would it be any of your business to play tattletale and convey idle gossip? John lilburne (talk) 21:45, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like we could all use a bit more clarity here, Kevin. Do you mind if I release all of the emails you sent me? Could be either on-wiki or WPO, up to you. ,Wil (talk) 21:55, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes Wil, I do object, and for a pretty simple reason: doing so is not in the interests of, bluntly, anyone. You've already picked out about the worst sounding quote you could've in terms of effecting my reputation, let those who enjoy drama bask in that while they must, instead of drawing anything else in. I do have a couple things to point out: my email to you was not unsolicited, and my response to your request to not interfere with your personal life was to clarify that that was the last thing I wanted to do, emphasize that you had brought up a *lot* of points that needed to be addressed sooner or later, invite you out to dinner to meet in person and hopefully in the process convince you that I did in fact have your best interests in mind, and start talking about how to make productive change while stressing that not everything could be addressed instantly. Do you want to watch the world burn because fire is pretty, or do you prefer construction? If you want something constructive to come out of your engagement with Wikimedia, that can only happen if you engage with Wikimedia's community in a different way than you have so far. Please note that I'm only responding to pings from Wil and a handful of others in this section, rather than monitoring it proactively. Kevin Gorman (talk) 23:03, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

"If you want something constructive to come out of your engagement with Wikimedia, that can only happen if you engage with Wikimedia's community in a different way than you have so far." "Morning and evening Maids heard the goblins cry: "Come buy our orchard fruits, Come buy, come buy." Imbibe, imbibe! Say the words!Dan Murphy (talk) 23:13, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Kevin, I don't think that quote was designed particularly to affect your reputation; though the best thing to do with offensive, ridiculous gossip is to stop it at the source and not pass it on. Repeating awful things that others have said is not quite as bad as the initial insult, but still hurts. As Wil seems to have been offended, an apology would not be remiss. – SJ + 00:51, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

If, as appears, tasteless remarks were made, I am not sure that one helps alleviate the tastelessness by publicizing them extensively. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:20, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

NYB, here's where I think you and I fundamentally disagree with how to handle matters like this. There is a good reason to hold people to their words and deeds. If we just sweep this stuff under the carpet, then Kevin's exactly right: the Wikimedia community tolerates this kind of behavior. I'm not interested in damaging the Misplaced Pages community or its reputation- just the opposite. I want this kind of stuff to stop. And it won't stop unless we admit we could have done better and learn our lessons well. So, I propose that we own our mistakes, learn from them, and better ourselves. And we should encourage others to learn from mistakes. If, for example, Kevin were to apologize to me and Lila, I would consider it a sign of strength, not weakness, and I would tell him so. ,Wil (talk) 02:15, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Wil: I've sincerely apologized to Lila, multiple times, over situations related to our interactions. When you expressed concern that I was trying to interfere with your personal life, I emphatically stressed that I had absolutely no desire to interfere in your personal life. (And, except for introducing myself, I have not sent you a single unsolicited email. If you took offense at me relaying how people viewed your behavior: I'm sorry, but sincerely hope you reread that whole line of emails to find and consider the point I made within them. I doubt leaking every email I've sent you would hurt my reputation to a greater degree than the initial offensive nugget you posted - but it would hurt likely hurt both your standing and Lila's, so I hope you have the sense not to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevin Gorman (talk • contribs) 02:41, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Accepted. This is where we could use some practice, however. An apology that follows the pattern "If *, I'm sorry, but *" is a weak apology. I simple "I'm sorry" is much more effective. I'd very much appreciate a chance to accept a strong apology from you, because I believe that it is warranted. But I'm not about to force it out of you; if you don't truly regret what you've said, then I'd prefer you don't apologize at all. And, Kevin, sincerely, you can stop worrying about my reputation. It will build naturally as I do what I believe is right. And, if you haven't caught on to this yet, I really don't care that much what people think of me. I'm interested in their ideas. And I've found no lack of good ideas voiced by good people here. I'm making a lot of friends and enjoying myself. I'm gonna stay the course. If you have concerns about Lila's reputation, I suggest you take it up with her. ,Wil (talk) 04:19, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

It looks like that's the strongest apology I'm going to get. :( ,Wil (talk) 01:06, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

• This food fight is getting pretty silly. (1) Kohs shouldn't have been banned from WikiconNYC14 at all. (2) If there was a legitimate reason to ban him, it should have been stated. And it still should be, he's waiting. (3) The conference organizers owe him $5.30 and an apology, in my opinion. All the rest of this is so much noise. Carrite (talk) 23:44, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

  Off-topic for this thread, but yes. People running events can set whatever guidelines they like, and can choose their attendance list to realize the type of event they have in mind; but this should be clear up front. – SJ + 00:51, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

  Sj's right. It's OT, but there is a common theme here. It sounds like there were lots of learning opportunities at WikiCon USA. No biggies. This kind of stuff happens. I think if we practiced apologizing and forgiving, we would all move on and do it better the next time.

  I can guarantee one thing, however; if one chooses to hide their missteps and waste everyone's time- or, worse yet, reputations- by trying to save face, I'm not the only one who will persist in holding everyone accountable. But make no mistake, I do it so diligently because I don't want to have to do it next time. ,Wil (talk) 02:15, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

• I'd disagree, with that, Brad. If such remarks were made that Scott alleges in the original post, they should be publicised here, and if they are as offensive as has been suggested, the offenders swiftly removed from any position of authority or importance. (And, to be honest, anyone in authority who didn't do anything about it / didn't condemn it, possibly including people further up this thread). Black Kite kite (talk) 23:49, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Would someone please Rev Del this thread? It's entheta that draws attention to a potential trouble source who's under the influence of suppressive persons, and I'm sure the sole source of Misplaced Pages has more important things to attend to. Misplaced Pages is a safe space. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 01:28, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

@Anthonyhcole: Didn't you mean to say "Misplaced Pages is a safe space opera"? ;) ,Wil (talk) 02:21, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

@Anthonyhcole:, I believe you're a squirrel.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 00:05, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

"suppressive persons"? "sole source of Misplaced Pages"? "Misplaced Pages is a safe space"? Not seeing anything RevDel-able here, but then your statement doesn't really make much sense to me. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:39, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Scientology and Sarcasm. Today is brought to you by the letter S. :D ,Wil (talk) 01:06, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Kohs is not convincing me with this argument. While arguing around the idea that he not be banned from a Wikimedia conference, "thekohser" posted that "... got his panties in such a twist over this "blackmail thread", he spent exactly 1 hour, 42 minutes, 29 seconds on MyWikiBiz last night, even searching the database for , just to make sure I haven't said anything mean about him. I'm pleased that he spent some time on the Sophismata page, though..." Now, this idea that someone is going to make opinions known for the Wikimedia community, encourage them to come and hear his banned words of wisdom, only to invade readers' privacy and use their browsing for opposition research, is not something I approve of. I have to limit my reaction in light of my opinion that every user ban should have a fixed maximum duration, and also in consideration that this wasn't directly done on Misplaced Pages; nonetheless, this is an argument he was making specifically for our benefit in lieu of access to edit here, and it makes me more willing to believe that his activities using any data he might collect at the conference could be problematic. As for the comments the OP was talking about, I haven't heard them, they may be unwise, but not every silly thing said has to lead to somebody getting voted off the island. Wnt (talk) 06:41, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

He may have said that in the thread about the conference, but I thought that comment was completely unrelated to WikiConference USA itself. For what it's worth, I told them today that I didn't think such doxxing behavior was OK for cases where they aren't exposing abuse (YMMV) and some of them did not like it at all. Then I reasserted that they are being asshats when they're making snarky comments about others. And, surprisingly enough, for completely separate reasons, I've stopped posting on WO altogether. It's been a busy day. But I still think that Misplaced Pages conferences that are open to all members must not exclude any participants who don't pose a threat. The matter that this section was created to discuss, however, has been resolved by Kevin's apology, although (and I really hate to criticize any apology; in fact, it's my first time doing so) it's mixed with more excuses and inaccuracies. In any case, I've decided not to release the rest of Kevin's mails. I don't think he was acting in bad faith, and he certainly assumed privacy. He just wasn't acting with prudence. I think he got the message that I'd rather not hear from him privately anymore. ,Wil (talk) 07:51, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

@Wil. I don't think the following representation of the dialog on WPO is accurate: "I told them today that I didn't think such doxxing behavior was OK for cases where they aren't exposing abuse (YMMV) and some of them did not like it at all." I think that a big majority of the wide range of people posting at Wikipediocracy would agree that real life identification of those abusing Misplaced Pages through anonymous accounts is OK, with the main difference of opinion being a big majority feeling that this should be limited to the manipulation of content and a small minority feeling that this should also apply to administrators and others making abusive use of site rules against their enemies. Essentially ALL feel there MUST be some purpose to such identifications. I think that's a reasonable reflection of actual sentiment there, whether one actively participates in such public identifications or one does not. This again gets back to the question that you yourself dodged on WPO when I directly asked it of you twice: in the matter of accuracy of Misplaced Pages content and transparency of contributors on the one hand vs. the perceived right of Misplaced Pages contributors to online anonymity, where do you land? Carrite (talk) 15:05, 16 June 2014 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 15:07, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Hey tim, are you saying that every piece of personal information posted at Wikipediocracy serves a purpose? What purpose did Lila's and my private address serve? I thank the moderators who took it down, but it was still posted. For that matter, why did everyone need to know the name of our ISP? I won't speak for others on Misplaced Pages who have similar stories, but I believe my own is enough to make it clear that not all personal information posted there accomplishes anything other than making people uncomfortable. That said, I'm very open with my personal info as long as it doesn't endanger my family. Others don't feel as comfortable with this, however. I can't force anybody at Wikipediocracy- or anywhere else, for that matter- to not engage in these activities; I can only encourage everyone to ask themselves how they can be kind to others and act accordingly. ,Wil (talk) 02:52, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I thought I answered the question about transparency vs. anonymity pretty directly before, but if you'd like me to repeat my viewpoint here, no biggies. Please give me a day or so. I'm having a hard time keeping up with mails, blog comments, talk page edits, etc. A lot of people have a lot of great suggestions on how we can be kinder to each other here on Misplaced Pages, and I'd like to set aside an uninterrupted chunk of time to address your question as directly as I can. ,Wil (talk) 02:52, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

is Misplaced Pages dying?

just few years ago I could find artciles about everything new, but now I can't:

• King's Bounty: Warrior of North is just still redirection
• Ironclad: Battle for Blood - no article yet

What is happening to Misplaced Pages?
Deleters are claiming that "wikipedia already has articles about evering and no new articles are needed", but I see THAT'S A LIE! Why do they become so POWERFULL? Why metapedists who do nothing just delete are more equal the those who write articles? Why no one see the AGONY of Misplaced Pages? Why no one tries to save it? (Idot (talk) 06:40, 15 June 2014 (UTC))

Maybe priorities change? Years ago, you couldn't articles on most of the Fortune 500 companies but you could on every Pokemon out there. Does the fact that you can't find information on two video games tell you that the website is "dying"? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:02, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

The editors above both raise valid questions regarding missing articles. Another example: no article about Gado Badzere yet! However, we do have Mbilé, Lolo, Garoua-Boulaï, Gbiti, and Kentzou, which puts Misplaced Pages way ahead of anything else currently available in the major US press about the emerging Cameroon refugee crisis ... ;) Djembayz (talk) 22:58, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has articles about *almost* everything, but some video games, films, books, pop albums etc may not meet WP:GNG, which is the requirement for a standalone article. In these cases, they can be included as part of other articles. Plus there is a need for someone to take the time to write the article.--♦IanMacM♦ 07:07, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Just few years ago we used to have enough people to write articles that cover everyithing... (Idot (talk) 09:01, 15 June 2014 (UTC))

The media claimed a decline in editor numbers in 2013, but that is not the real issue here. The rules for article creation are stricter now than they were a few years ago, and a stub class article about a video game sourced to a couple of online reviews would probably face WP:AFD.--♦IanMacM♦ 09:10, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Both are related, 'coz there is a GREAT DISINCETIVE and GREAT DISCOURAGE to editors, 'coz everyone are equal, but Herostrates are more equal then others, just 'coz
if a writer has a couple of hours to spent Wilipedia, he or she is forced to spend such time for arguing in AFD, not for writing articles and as as result the writer gets no pleasure from writing articles, but great displeasure, so if the writer is not a masochist the best choise is not to waste free time for displeasant Misplaced Pages, but to spent for something else
while a Herostrate may spent his or her couple of hours of free time in AFD, and gets lots of pleasure, and Misplaced Pages is very pleasent place for Herostrates, so Herostrates are more equal than editors, 'coz only Herostrates are able to spend their time for pleasant activity (Idot (talk) 09:45, 15 June 2014 (UTC))

While our fellow Idot here may be easy to ignore because of their not-so-good English and apparently frivolous complain, I wouldn't shrug and move on so fast. It is true that most of our readership is more inclusionist than we are. Readers expect to find information when they look for something on WP. Whenever we don't do that, it is a failure. Now, it is true that on some subject we simply cannot do that (e.g. if there is a lack of RS). But I often have the feeling that we draft tighter and tighter notability/inclusion guidelines only for the sake of ourselves as editors, without thinking about the readers outside. In fact the declining number of editors means that we are alienating more and more people, preventing them from becoming editors as well. I strongly urge everyone to consider that we are here for the readers. Maybe relaxing our inclusion criteria a bit, sometimes, would make this thing a bit uglier than we would like, but probably our readers would be much happier. This is not a new issue, actually. Media have often a dim view of our deletionist approach, and they already had several years ago: ,,,. Meanwhile the problem has only got worse.--cyclopia 10:57, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

One person's "important information" is another person's "useless trivia" (and vise versa). The debate between inclusionists and deletionists has been going on since the earliest days of Misplaced Pages, and it won't end with this discussion. Deletion is only a "problem" if you are an inclusionist. The deletionists, of course, don't consider it a "problem" at all. It may be that most of our editors are deletionists... when the article under consideration is about a topic they have no interest in. They suddenly turn into rabid inclusionists when the article is about a topic they care about. Like I said... one person's useless trivia is another person's important information (and vise versa). Blueboar (talk) 11:37, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

you don't see the crucial point: deleters usually DO NOT write articles id est (in general) deleters ARE NOT writers, typicall they DO NOT improve articles, because they don't do anything to improve articles, but they have greater POWER than thouse who write articles, 'coz they could spend all free time for deletion, while writer are forced to spend lots of time not for writing articles, but for arguing with deleters - it means lots of time are WASTED not for improving articles, but just for arguing with deleters. while deleters do not have filling of waste of time (they have only pleasure of deleting and arguing), writers have fillings that writing in Misplaced Pages is waste of time and efforts, 'coz whatever they did might be easily wasted by deleters (Idot (talk) 12:07, 15 June 2014 (UTC))

The counter point, of course, is this: While deletionists do not improve any specific article... the see their activities as improving the entire project (ie Misplaced Pages as a whole). Remember, there are two ways to improve a written work... one is to add more to it... the other is to edit out what isn't needed. It's what editors do (there is a reason we are called editors, not writers). Blueboar (talk) 14:08, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you User:Idot for asking such a brilliant and perceptive set of questions. They get right to the heart of the problems preventing Misplaced Pages from achieving it's potential for good. To answer each in turn:

• Is Misplaced Pages dying?

Not yet, but it is inflicted with a sickness. And until that sickness is cured, Misplaced Pages is increasingly at risk of going the way of Citizendium. Venture capitalists have long expressed a wish to fund a more open alternative to Misplaced Pages. Even back in 2008 they recognised that "Deletionists rule Misplaced Pages" . Almost every month here in London alone, there's a conferences on Inclusive capitalism. Im expecting to attend one on 3rd July with folk like Andrew Witty, Charlie Mayfield, Sir Roger Carr, Frances O’Grady, Sir John Armitt, Katja Hall and Mike Wright. While inclusionism is generally talked about in a broader sense than its typically used here on Misplaced Pages, options for a replacement are sometimes discussed. With good SEO, leveraging of social media and perhaps a little inside help from one or two of the tech giants, it would not be hard to engineer. So far, those with the knowledge to help implement the project have demurred, out of loyalty to Misplaced Pages. But this may not be the case forever. Once it happens it will happen fast. Misplaced Pages will drop like a stone in the search rankings, and there will be nothing the Foundation or community could do about it.

• What happened to Misplaced Pages?

As you clearly already know, its been largely taken over by deletionists.

• Why have Deletionists became so powerful?

There lots of reasons for this. As per your insightful opening post, one of the reasons is the powerful myth about article saturation. The assertion that we close to the point where we have articles on almost everything worthy of coverage in an encyclopedia is not just wrong, but breathtakingly wrong. Back when the famous 1911 Encyclopedia was written, it was reasonable to say that human knowledge increased at such a slow rate that it took about a century to double. Now human knowledge is increasingly at an exponential rate. This is a totally mainstream idea and not to my knowledge challenged by any serious academic. Human knowledge is now likely doubling in less than a year, accordingly to IBM, it may soon start to double in only 12 hours. Misplaced Pages took well over 10 years to reach 4.5 million articles. What's most concerning is the second derivative of the rate of increase, which is close to zero even in terms of bytes being added to the database, and clearly negative with regards to new articles. Millions of potential new topics are arising each year, receiving abundant coverage in reliable sources, and only an increasingly tiny fraction get included in Misplaced Pages.

I can't believe someones tried to defend this by saying at least we now have good coverage of Fortune 500 companies. Since Misplaced Pages became the world's leading source of information, the larger companies are naturally going to ensure they have articles. But what about topics of huge social importance but with less CoI reason to encourage editing?

Over the last few years, in the field of hunger relief and development, I've been painfully aware there are literally tens of thousands of high impact topics that aren't even mentioned in Misplaced Pages, despite being abundantly covered in reliable sources. I myself have expanded or created articles on a few dozen of these topics: e.g. Seoul Development Consensus , Hunger in the United States, School breakfast club , The World Development Report 2011 , but the efforts of myself and the few others who work in this topic class are just tiny drops in an ocean of omission. The same could be said about countless other topic classes. Huh, even many topics one might expect to appeal to Misplaced Pages's young male demographic are poorly covered. As a specific example, this May the United Nations held its first ever conference on autonomous weapons, and this attracted huge coverage in the main stream press. But not only is there no article for the conference, the fact it occurred doesn't seem to be mentioned on Misplaced Pages at all!

Again, not only are we no where near achieving article Saturation , Misplaced Pages is falling behind the saturation point at an exponentiation rate, and this includes omission not just of important computer games, but of countless events with massive coverage in both mainstream press and scholarly journals, and which any well balanced person would agree are of world historical significance.

Another equally destructive myth is the thinking behind the various methods used to promote quality. Aside from directly destroying content in the name of quality, adding ugly maintenance tags to the top of articles is perhaps the most self defeating. The sort of people best able to create quality content have many other platforms on which to contribute to other than Misplaced Pages. They also often have a well developed sense of aesthetics, and are repelled away from Misplaced Pages by the excessive tagging. This also ties in with what you've just suggested about content creators seeing contributing here as a waste of time, due to the power of deletionists.

Yet another reason for deletionists becoming so powerful is the way the RfA process favors them. Almost by definition, Inclusionists tend to be tolerant, and its relatively rare for them to oppose a half decent deletionist candidate. Whereas deletionists are much more likely to oppose an inclusionist candidate. So over the years, the admin corps has became progressively more deletionists in character, and the deletionist ideology has effectively became normalized throughout the politically active section of the community (i.e. those who frequently participate in the meta processes like XfD, RfA, ANI, policy discussions).

• Why are deletionists favored over article writers?

You've already answered this, but its worth repeating. The short answer is the prevailing social dynamics on Misplaced Pages make it so.

Some come to Misplaced Pages because they want to add to the sum of humanities knowledge. This is hard work. Others seem to come to Misplaced Pages as its a good opportunity for them to exercise power. Everyone likes to have power, and the need to do so is generally proportional to one's strength of character (but not sadly ones ability to achieve or even perceive the good). Power is often defined as the ability to dispose. As Hegel revealed, the desire for recognition is a primary human drive, and achieving it often involves negating the other. Misplaced Pages is perfect for those who like to exercise power by destroying other peoples work. As you rightly point out, it is far easier to achieve pleasure here as a deletionist than as a content creator. This is also a fourth way to answer your question about why deletionists have became so powerful.

Moving on to a possible solution, a classic way societies have responded to destructive and intolerant elites is raise up a King. In Christendom especially, one of the roles of the King was to stand up on the side of the people against the nobility (or the power hungry middle class) if they became to oppressive to the people. (To be non sexist, I should point out good Queen Beth I was probably the very best recent monarch in this regard). In the early days of Misplaced Pages, Jimbo was effectively a good inclusionist King figure, but after years of aggressive lobbying by deletionists, he has progressively retreated from this role, both as he prefers the community to run itself, and as he's been sympathetic to deletionist propaganda when they present it as a way to increase quality.

The more modern solution to the problem of oppressive elites is strong and inclusive institutions. The simplest way a reform along these lines could be implemented on Misplaced Pages might be to give Arbcom the power to change policy, and create life long seats for our best inclusionist editors like Casliber, Hobbit, cyclopia, MSQ, Milowent, Dream and the Colonel. Only Jimbo would have the authority to bring this about.

• Why do none see the AGONY of Misplaced Pages?

A great many do, it's just most are paralyzed by the horror of it all and so rarely express it.

• Why do none try to save it?

Many have, but those who try to effectively oppose deletionists on Misplaced Pages rarely last. A few years back we had several editors of indomitable character, who heroically tried to save vast quantities of articles. The rescue Titan Anobody, the heroic Benji, the master strategist Ikip. But all have been permabanned, often after having threads started against them on off wiki sites, allowing hordes of deletionists to descend on ANI en mass and create an unstoppable illusion of consensus.

Deletionists are so powerful that only Jimbo could possibly oppose them. Despite the glaring flaws you've spotlighted, Misplaced Pages is still a monumental achievement, and Jimbos very success in founding it may mean he's not the best person to nurture his idea to its full fruition.

If you read this entire post though, I hope you'll see that some of the needed prep work is already being done off wiki. It make take several years, maybe two decades at the outside, but sooner or later inclusionism will rightly return as the prevailing ideology for the world's number one encyclopedia. This is inevitable. The question is whether it will be achieved with Misplaced Pages and the Wikimedia foundation, or against them. FeydHuxtable (talk) 12:20, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

• I am rather proud to be known as a "deletionist", actually. I and others serve here as "editors" more in line with what a copy editor does at a newspaper, i.e. formatting, grammar, fact-check, and ensure balance. We curate the content of others, basically. Part of that does involve working to delete content deemed ill-suited to this project. Not every Transformer needs his/her exhaustive history and abilities spelled out in detail, not every 4th-rate politician needs a biography, and not every video game gets a plot analysis and strategy guide. Unless there is something egregiously wrong (e.g. copyright violation) with an article, such things are always put up for a community discussion, where you can have your say. And Feyd, thanks for the early-morning chuckle. Titans, heroes, and master strategists? You identified 3 of the worst scourges to ever infest this project there. Tarc (talk) 12:29, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome Tarc, and thanks for having the honesty to demonstrate the extent of the problem by openly admitting you're proud to be deletionist. The flip side of that pride is the much more common editor who denies being a deletionist yet still clearly acts on that philosophy. That’s what I meant about deletionism being normalized. We're not just talking about articles for 4th rate politicians being destroyed. On the subject of politics, even global phenomena like the 2008–09 Keynesian resurgence have been put up for deletion. A world wide policy shift that arguably effected everyone on the planet, and which attracted thousands of dedicated articles in the mainstream media, financial press, and the journals, and which had even had several whole books written entirely about it from the world's leading universities (including Harvard, Cambridge and MIT). Despite all this being patiently explained, the article was still put up for deletion! As you well know, topics that have attracted wall to wall media coverage relating to royal weddings or tragedies like the death of Amanda Todd have also been repeatedly put for deletion. No wonder fewer and fewer content creators want to contribute here. It's not just trivial articles that are being attacked. And to fulfill our m:vision , even the most minor Transformer character deserve an article. Why can't obviously intelligent people like yourself not see that deletionism is out of control, and ultimately threatens the very existence of Misplaced Pages? FeydHuxtable (talk) 12:57, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for that flip reply. I didnt mean to suggest there's something wrong in being a deletionists. As you say, deleting is a necessary part of presenting a useful encyclopedia. There's lots of reasons from op positional theory why its even desirable for the role to be personified by individuals. Folk being proud to be a deletionist is not the problem. The problem is one of balance, as Idot correctly says, deletionism is a problem because its become too powerful. FeydHuxtable (talk) 13:32, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm somewhere between an inclusionist and a deletionist.

The inclusionist within me says:

• Deleting an article that a new editor started working on is going to demoralize and confuse the newbie and likely scare him/her off from ever working here again.
• We could benefit from articles on some subjects that are considered too insignificant to be encyclopeadic right now. If someone comes here to find some information, and it's not here because it's "insignificant" - then we failed to give that person the information (albeit obscure) that they needed...we failed in our role as "repository of all human knowledge".
• What does "encyclopeadic" mean anyway? It means "suitable for inclusion into an encyclopedia". As we are now by far the biggest and best encyclopedia in the world, Misplaced Pages defines what an encyclopedia is. What is "encylopeadic" is now, by definition, "whatever Misplaced Pages chooses to accept". So we have a circular argument.
• Disk space is cheap - so why not have articles about more obscure subjects?

But then the deletionist in me rears up his ugly head:

• Allowing people to create articles that are truly too insignificant is a bad thing because it will result in a huge increase in the number of articles without a corresponding increase in people who stay here to maintain them. We truly don't have enough editors to maintain a much larger body of articles.
• Misplaced Pages can only maintain the "encyclopedia that everyone can edit" mantra because, when spam is added to an article, it gets cleaned up in minutes - or when mis-information is put into an article by some random bad guy, it gets corrected by the people who have that article on their watchlists. That's certainly true for articles like Physics that have hundreds of watchers - but if we allow people to create articles about their barely-notable relatives, how can we be sure that they'll maintain them off into the infinite future? There is a risk that widening the scope of the encyclopedia will make it unmaintainable. You can certainly argue that only the unimportant articles will fall foul of spammers, vandals and so forth - but can we expect our readers to understand that reading an article on a barely notable topic exposes them to a vastly higher risk that what they are reading is nonsense. The effect that this might have on our reputation would certainly diminish our readership - and that's a much bigger threat to the encyclopedia than a diminution of the number of editors.

So who is right? I don't know...hence I oscillate between inclusionist and deletionist ideals. Hence, I subscribe to the Association of Wikipedians Who Dislike Making Broad Judgments About the Worthiness of a General Category of Article, and Who Are in Favor of the Deletion of Some Particularly Bad Articles, but That Doesn't Mean They Are Deletionists.

When we had that rash of Pokemon articles, I felt that it was too much to have an article about every single Pokemon. But, they mostly turned out to be well-referenced, and a lot of them made it to Featured Article status, and a fair number of people read them too. I've even had need to read one or two of them over the years.

My thought is that the gold standard for article acceptance should be:

1. Is it referenced? Although we should give time for new editors to understand the need for references and to track them down and add them to their new articles before we leap in and delete those articles.
2. Is it actively being maintained? Maybe we should have a bot that randomly inserts "PLEASE DELETE THIS SENTENCE!" into articles at random and watches to see how long it is before the article is fixed. If the time exceeds some threshold - then the article clearly isn't being actively maintained, and we should review it for deletion.
3. Deleting articles that are unmaintained is a victimless crime because if a newbie creates an article and doesn't look in on it after several months, then if we delete it, we're not likely to deter him/her from becoming a new editor. But if he/she has been working hard on the article for days or weeks, then instead of deleting it, let's move in and help with it...even if it is kinda obscure. Then, if we have to delete the article later, we've already established a friendly working relationship with the new editor - and it's much more likely that they'll stay.
4. Is it more than just a stub? The consideration and caution displayed when deciding whether to delete an article should be in proportion to the amount of work that went into creating it.
5. Consider that (especially with first-articles-by-new-editors), it's not the article that we're deleting - it's the editor.

With those considerations in place, I don't see why we shouldn't allow much less notable subjects to be included here. Disk space is cheap - and who is really harmed if a well-maintained, nicely referenced article about some very obscure person is created here?

SteveBaker (talk) 13:25, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Interesting compromise, but while deleting unmaintained articles might not hurt the creator(s) in the sense that they'd be less likely know their work was destroyed, we'd still victimize all the present and future readers who would want to see encyclopedic coverage of the topic. Much better to only allow the destruction of hoaxes, attack pages and non notable BLPs. FeydHuxtable (talk) 13:32, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm surprised that anyone, anywhere, considers Misplaced Pages nearly done. There are about 300 German electoral districts currently missing articles, at least 500 members of the current German parliament don't have articles. Go back to 1949 and there must be 8000-9000 members without articles. In Spain over 2,000 members of parliament elected since 1977 don't have articles here. Add the members of regional assemblies in both those countries and you easily have over 50,000 articles uncreated which have presumptive notability. That's just for two rich western democracies with a lot of people who've had the money to put themselves through decent universities with every day computer access. How many electoral districts and members of regional and national parliaments around the world are missing? I don't think it's an exaggeration to say it must be close on a million. For all that, I'm not totally convinced about the Transformers characters and so on. I believe we should be making more use of mergers and redirects so that they have some mention here until the sources exist to spin them out into their own articles. I found that in the case of the politicians. I had a look before with a thought to creating articles on members of the Valencian regional assembly, but the sources just aren't there. In such cases I think "list of X" articles are better and are much easier for editors to monitor for vandalism, POV and misinfo than 2 or 3 sentence permanent stubs. Valenciano (talk) 13:40, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

• Well, strangely enough, if we look at the two articles that Idot complains about at the start of this very odd thread'

• "King's Bounty: Warrior of North is just still redirection" - well, yes, because it's never been more than a one-line stub. And "Ironclad: Battle for Blood - no article yet" ... as far as I can see, this has never had an article. So, Idot, if you want these things to have articles, you could also try writing them instead of complaining about it. Black Kite kite (talk) 14:47, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Black Kite, you don't get the point unfortunatelly, just few years ago articles of same topic would be have been already written! just few years ago I would had 'em already as a reader (Idot (talk) 15:32, 15 June 2014 (UTC))
    • Well, that's as maybe, but how does it stand with the stuff about "deletionists" if the articles have never even existed? Articles will exist if there are people sufficiently interested to write them. I can only assume, in the case of these two games, that there - as yet - haven't been. Black Kite kite (talk) 17:46, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
      • if writers were not discouraged the artciles would be already have been written. but we have the sad situation when writers are DO discouraged, so they choose do not waste time and efforts in Misplaced Pages by writing articles - the choose another pleasant activity, but not discpleasant and frustating athmosphere of Misplaced Pages which is not as frendly as used to be few years ago. 'coz whatever you do could be easily wasted by Herostrates, so writing articles become useless waste of time and efforts (Idot (talk) 18:03, 15 June 2014 (UTC))

Very true Idot. Appalling as the direct destruction wrought by deletionists is, it's small compared to their indirect damage. Due to deletionist dominance, countless millions of articles are never written as creative editors are too discouraged to start them in the first place.

Survey after survey from the Foundation has confirmed deletionism is a leading reason for the decline in active editors. For years nothing has been done, as it's been seen as the inevitable consequence of a wikipedia's maturation, a terrible pattern that plays out across all the difference languages.

Many good outside academics have tried to analyse the reason for the fall off in active editors. Without exception they've all been seduced by the false narrative of article saturation and nonsense about low hanging fruit. It took your genius to divine the true reason: the social dynamics implicit in the DNA for a wikimedia project are too favorable to deletionists.

After inclusionist trailblazers grow a new wikipiedia to a critical mass, it becomes attractive to deletionists who derive pleasure from exerting power over article creators and their work. They turn inclusionist's great virtue - tolerance - into a weakness. Jimbo and Jimbo alone has the power to turn the tide against deletionism. I doubt it will happen, but you've certainly started your thread in the right place. Thank you so much for giving us hope! FeydHuxtable (talk) 18:52, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

During 2004/2005, it took months after the announcement of a massive, high profile film for an article to be created about it. As of right now, a video game that gets announced at E3 has an article created within ten minutes. It's the same with most films and television series bar a very tiny minority of them. Article creation may well have slowed down but I do not believe pop culture topics have anything to worry about. —Xezbeth (talk) 14:46, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

I completely reject the point of deleting articles without people watching them. It is precisely the most "academic" topics the ones that will have less people watching or editing them, and the things from popular culture and/or modern times the ones with most activity. Cambalachero (talk) 17:56, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

• Is Misplaced Pages the site for the description of what some of the complaints? I mean, gamers and such don't go to Misplaced Pages to learn about video games. They go to walk-through sites, or cheat sites. Or more like Wikia. I use Wikia all the time for Walking Dead info. The TV, game and comic. I don't know if an encyclopedia is the venue here. I don't know if it isn't either. It might be a good idea to quasi-merge some of the material provided in Wikia and Misplaced Pages. Both are run by the Wikimedia Foundation. Dave Dial (talk) 18:33, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

• It's an issue of scope. Misplaced Pages is trying to be more general and as such, is more concerned about more general topics. The Wikia page has more details on about the Walking Dead game but I'm certain Misplaced Pages has more details about the actors, the writers, the company, etc. Rather than both get bloated and unwieldy, let each community exist on its own. Wouldn't you rather the administrators at the Wikia page be people who know more about the Walking Dead series rather than just 'regular' people who may have no interest and cause fighting because they just aren't a part of that community? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 18:40, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

It's not a WMF project. It's run by a separate company, Wikia, Inc. See here and the WP article - it's a for-profit venture, hence the ads. BethNaught (talk) 18:42, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Oh, ok. I thought since it was founded by Jimbo and Angie that it was part of the Foundation. And yes, I would rather go to Wikia to get more in depth info on games. In fact, I do. In any case, I don't think Misplaced Pages is dying, just evolving. Dave Dial (talk) 18:53, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to thank Idot for starting this conversation, though I don't think video games are underrepresented relative to other items ... indeed, they seem to get front page product placements far out of proportion to their importance. And I especially thank FeydHuxtable for cogently saying things I could practically have written myself. But I should emphasize that the rules haven't changed. WP:GNG is still the "basic notability criterion" for everything, and it reads the same as ever. What has happened is that a lot of people just make a point of intentionally ignoring the guidelines we have, saying that such-and-such an article fails Notability (cartoon characters) or whatever. One things deletionists will never delete is notability guidelines, studded with some carefully lobbied-for set of things that, nominally, represent additions to the articles we can have, but which end up being voted as if they were limitations on them.

The larger problem that is a part of is that adding content is subject to all sorts of rules - "original research", NPOV, COI and so forth. But the people who come around to delete content don't follow rules. They basically say, this source doesn't match my impression of what is true, so it's out. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and extraordinary means anything I don't believe in. Or they wave a bundle of ethics at you, claiming violations of innumerable policies or just whatever they say doesn't seem right for us to cover. Even when they are not deleting to favor a POV, their notion of "balancing" an article is to chop down whichever view was best documented to match the physical length of whatever view was least worked on. There's no penalty for coming up with five different reasons, all clearly bogus from even a quick skim of the policy text, why an article has to be deleted. They perfect a make-work routine, understanding that victory involves spending a bare minimum of time to revert, a brief citation of a random policy if challenged, and a move on to the next policy when necessary. By moving quickly and spending little time, they can move in herds and achieve "consensus", at which point they can say the policy is defined by what they do.

I am not sure, but I think that Misplaced Pages can be saved by fusing it with one of the Internet's other forgotten pillars, Usenet. I understand, of course, that as implemented that network is vastly insufficient. However, I think we could formulate a general idea of decentralized storage, using the history old-id as the posting identifier, enabling Mediawiki markup, especially transclusion, in reading of the individual posts, and replacing the burdensome administrative and editing structure of Misplaced Pages and the obsolete and oversimplified newsgroup structure of Usenet with an after-the-fact choice of preferred versions by multiple independent authorities, and empowering the individual reader with the ability to archive some set of specific article versions to be served in a decentralized torrent-like network. I don't think it would be easy to design, and far harder to get people involved in, but we should think about ideas like this seriously in the expectation of the time when Misplaced Pages really does go under. I do not want this whole public enterprise getting taken over, censored, and all but owned by some creepy spy like company like Facebook or Quora because they're the only ones who had a dream, even though a dark one. Wnt (talk) 23:43, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Merging with USENET - the famed copyright/child-porn/spam service would be like taking a cyanide pill for Misplaced Pages. Not to mention the wonderful tens of thousands of lawsuits waiting to happen in such a "fusion." IMO of course. Collect (talk) 00:11, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't usually agree with Collect, but I agree that merging Misplaced Pages with Usenet is one of the genuinely worst ideas ever to be expressed in Misplaced Pages. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:50, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

People file all these sorts of edits in Misplaced Pages. These are the accusations made against anything that "anyone can edit". Of course, as I said, we would need better than the simple newsgroup structure; as with Misplaced Pages, something should point to mark a "current version". The fact that Usenet is a venerable and ongoing institution demonstrates that indeed it is legal (especially something equivalent to "wiki.rec.games.computer.pokemon"!), so instead of worrying about how to beef up censorship we can worry about how to keep powerful people with POVs from skewing the content, by giving people a choice. I do recognize that spam is a huge problem on Usenet, but if we have a dozen people choosing their own "current versions" of a given article, only those 12 have to wade through it all. The rest would just see it transcluded from an index file the others would generate and post. Of course, it's vital to have a lot of development there so that people aren't wading through all this except by setting some preferences or choosing authorities to follow while reading, but see the technical aspects handle themselves as they ought. I suppose it will take more convincing and some specifics, even some mock-ups, to make this clear. I'm still trying to think of a good way to make the distribution sites self-funding (I admit, that's a tough one, but I think there should be a way). Wnt (talk) 00:59, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I always find it interesting that while 'anyone can edit', if they add something, they are doing great work but if they remove something, it's a problem. Adding a ton of text that is in not comprehensible does not help. Editing is both. The truth is the best prose and writing is concise and that means stuff goes away (or else, you have indecipherable mess like this was). Is the real problem a lack of new people creating articles? I thought actual article creation was rarely by new users (other than those who wanted to create one article and that's it). Most new users I see start off with copyediting, correcting or revising the work of others and that's not a deletionist/inclusionist problem, that's a problem we have of creating massing walled gardens so that it's difficult to figure out what's right or what's wrong to do. I'm probably a rabid deletionist but I'm also trying to get rid of the mass of complicated templates people have created so that a user can actually see regular text when they edit a page and not get in trouble for ruining everything by forgetting a brace somewhere. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:50, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

• Deletionism puffs your heart up for a little while. It may not benefit mankind at all, but at least the deletionist gets LULZ -- even better than kicking down sand castles on the beach. That's about it. 71.246.147.13 (talk) 10:48, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Try comparing Joseph Widney with (Joseph Widney article as of 27 November 2008). Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:45, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

All I have to note, is this →.

Your rhetorical comparison, TenOfAllTrades, is a perfect example of what is wrong with deletionist culture.

Misplaced Pages is not used by readers as a whole. Readers don't print Misplaced Pages from the first article to the last, read it, ponder on its overall structure and decide if it was a good or bad read, if it was balanced or not. That's exactly the point. Misplaced Pages is not an overall finished work that has to be savoured whole. Misplaced Pages is a resource. It is akin to a library. When I look for a book in the library, I want to find it. A librarian that throws away otherwise useful or interesting books because they don't fit his notion of a library is not a good librarian. A library is there to service readers.

Deletionist culture sees WP as a goal per se. That makes it sterile and worthless. Readers do not care about how your great careful crafting of notability guidelines makes it rival the editorial committee of Britannica. Readers want to find information. They have been promised the sum of human knowledge, and rightly so they expect it.--cyclopia 14:30, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

That's a weak argument Cyclopia. Everyone is a deletionist, whether they admit it or not. They simply draw the line in a different place. I don't think anyone would say "Well, the sum of human knowledge includes what my neighbor had for breakfast yesterday, so let's start a List of breakfast foods consumed by Obiwan's neighbor in June 2014. The library analogy would work if we were simply importing work that was already published, which is what a library does. Thus, for wikisource, we can take any primary source, I doubt they are as picky as we are for what they accept, and commons as we know pretty much accepts any image as long as the licensing is ok. But we're not a library, we're nothing like a library, in fact we're so far from a library it's not even funny. We're not curating a collection of works that have editorial expertise and publication houses and book reviews and so on behind them. We're curing self-created content, we have a limited number of editors, and we should thus have a limited number of articles, because the fewer editors per article the more likely such articles are to be vandalized, thus resulting in crap for the reader. I'd much rather we had 1,000,000 high quality articles watched by hundreds than 4,000,000 articles of middling quality, some of which have no watchers at all. I would support any move to drastically strengthen the inclusion/notability requirements for articles, especially BLPs.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:39, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Great point, I don't want something like the two border-line NN video games tarnishing the good name of the encyclopedia. We're not an aggregate, we discriminate at notability for every topic. If it's notable, it's in, and if it's not, it is merged or deleted. Simple, no palaver needed. Seattle (talk) 15:02, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

The problem being, reasonable people disagree on "notable", but IMHO as it stands the overall definition of "notability" is too inclusive to be ultimately manageable by a (perhaps declining) editorial corps.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:06, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

This imaginary bogeyman of a monolithic "deletionist culture" is why I should know better than to get into these types of discussions. If people who believe we should follow WP:BLP or WP:MEDRS are "deletionists", I guess I'm a library-burning "deletionist". Heck, Cyclopia, you were involved in an edit war just ten days ago at Olbers' paradox (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), where you removed content from that article three times in rapid succession because you didn't think the sourcing was good enough. You couldn't even be bothered to go to the talk page. Guess you're a damn dirty deletionist, too.

...Or maybe – just maybe – you should consider restating your position with a little less us-versus-them and a little more nuance. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:02, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

• Obi-Wan Kenobi, your words "I'd much rather we had 1,000,000 high quality articles" sounds like "deletionsists looks for sources and improve artiles to high standards", however they DO NOT, deletions DO NOT improve quality of articles, they just delete 'em! they don't even give a chance to improve it. high quality article is not created in one day, it even not created in seven days, but deleters behave like a slave driver they tell to voluteers who write articles "create high quality article by tommorow otherwise it will be deleted!", but We ARE NOT Slaves! we are free voluteers! (Idot (talk) 15:33, 16 June 2014 (UTC))

some topics will never be worthy here. And I don't think it's the deletionists job to improve articles that are hopeless. Nothing prevents a deleted article from being recreated, and there's no rush, you can dawdle in draft space or user space for years. But if it's not ready for prime time it's not ready.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:14, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Obi-Wan Kenobi, you again thinking like a slave driver, who proud by deeds that he didn't do like he did that deeds - it's really sad :-( Idot (talk) 16:28, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Everyone is a deletionist, whether they admit it or not. They simply draw the line in a different place. - I am talking of a line that is still more or less around WP:GNG, with perhaps a few inclusive exceptions (just for the sake of example, astronomical objects).
• But we're not a library, we're nothing like a library, in fact we're so far from a library it's not even funny. - Way to miss the point of my analogy, Obiwankenobi, but I guess it is my fault. The issue is not in what WP is made of, I am aware it is not made of original books, thanks. The issue is the way it is accessed. Readers access WP more or less like students in a library, looking for a resource explaining a subject. Deletionists are those who perceive it as a book instead, something which only makes sense as a whole. Which is extremly elegant, but it is far removed from our readers' perspective.
• because the fewer editors per article the more likely such articles are to be vandalized, thus resulting in crap for the reader. - That's a good objection; that's probably the only good objection. Yes, if more articles mean a sea of vandalized articles, that is bad. But look, the more we're tightening the criteria to include articles, the more we lose editors. Correlation is not causation, sure; but in this case I see some causation. When most new articles begin to be bombed by PROD/AFD tags; when we make the article creation process more and more difficult (see the Articles for Creations monster), we make the entry into WP more and more complicated exactly for the people we should attract more than anyone else: content writers.
• This imaginary bogeyman of a monolithic "deletionist culture" is why I should know better than to get into these types of discussions. - Only if, in turn, it is accompanied by an imaginary bogeyman of a caricatural "inclusionism" that is often portrayed as "everything goes", as the silly breakfast example of Obiwankenobi above shows. Inclusionism does not mean I want an article for each grain of sand in the beach (poetic as it would be). It means that, very broadly speaking, we should have no further bias/barrier in including content than the availability of (possibly secondary) reliable sources. Yeah, I do remove stuff which is unsourced, I do remove WP:OR, I do want a lot of stuff deleted. What I do not want deleted is, in general, reliably sourced information.
• I am sorry if it looked, simplistically as an "us-vs-them". But there is a clash of cultures. While the terms "inclusionist" and "deletionist" denote each a broad spectrum of different positions, with lots of space in the middle, a bit like "left" and "right" in politics, they still have a meaning. And I think the difference is exactly in: do we see WP as a resource, where the existence of an article does not taint the existence of others; or do we see it as a monolith to consider always as a whole? Do we think of giving readers information, or of building something for the sake of us editing and having a cute Internet hobby?--cyclopia 15:34, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I am not of the camp that sees Misplaced Pages as a book, nor do I feel it needs to form some sort of cohesive whole. However, I am of the camp that says GNG is actually not enough, since the worlds press is full of topics which easily pass GNG but the maintenance of which is literally impossible with our current editor corps - hence policies like WP:LASTING to ensure we don't report every football game and every rain storm. Take a look at biographies - I've been involved in editing a number of biographies that flash into the public eye and attract a great deal of attention, and then like all things, burn out. Now, if this is a dead person, not much damage, as the person isn't doing more stuff - but if it's a living person over time their biography becomes ossified in a particular state that no longer represents them, or at least represents a very incomplete picture. This doesn't happen with Obama but it does happen to hundreds of thousands of other biographies which remain of poor quality. As we all know, vicious people can modify these Unwatched biographies with pseudofacts that can persist for years. The net result is that, as a person of marginal note, it's often better to not have a biography here - indeed some people are calling for people to be able to opt out of having a biography here. How good of a resource are we if we can't keep up with the articles we have, much less many more? As for editors, I think the relationship between deletion criteria and editor retention is a complex one - I also think though that if Misplaced Pages were of much better quality overall we'd attract a different type of editor that would perhaps be more beneficial to the project.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:14, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree that for BLPs the balance of advantages/disadvantages may be tilted, even if I feel our guidelines in that respect are more or less OK as they are (I am vehemently opposed to opt-out, but that is another matter).

As for a different type of editors, in theory what you conjecture would be awesome. In practice, with hindsight, we know that projects like Nupedia and Citizendium failed miserably. The low to no barrier to start collaboration is what made Misplaced Pages successful. When this barrier begun to rise, our editor numbers plummeted (while average editor quality didn't improve significantly, I suspect).--cyclopia 16:27, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

• Obi-Wan Kenobi, thanks for arising another problem! as we have less editiors and less new artilces, there are not enogh new articles to satisfy predatory berhavior of deleters since there are not enogh new articles to satisfy hunger to delete of deleters, now it's a commond to delete not only stubs, but articles that were good enogh few years ago to be not stubs are deleted too, they call it as "improving quality standards", however it is just satifiying their will to delete, not improving quality of existing articles (Idot (talk) 16:54, 16 June 2014 (UTC))

I honestly don't know if I have ever seen a thread as long and dare I say tendentious as this one about so little. The original complaint seems to be almost exclusively about how we don't have articles on video games immediately, apparently without regard to whether those games have risen to our comparatively low standards of notability or not. And in the last edit above, we now have a rather amusing unsupported allegation that "deletionists" are somehow absolutely committed to deletionist tendencies that they do nothing else, and languish without anything to do if they can't delete things.

The unfortunate fact is that, if we are, like I think we are, trying to be really encyclopedic like in the Misplaced Pages:Five pillars, we cannot be an indiscriminate collection of information. There is a great deal of indiscriminate information out there to be collected, unfortunately, and not all of it is suitable here. That is however not to say that some such information might not be appropriate for other WF entities. Also, if one were to want to look at Category:WikiProject lists of encyclopedic articles, which contains pages listing at least some groups of topics which have articles in other reference sources, one would see just how many redlinks and thus missing articles in other reference works we still don't have. May I suggest that perhaps one way to counter what seems to be one editor's primary complaint, that we don't have enough articles on video games, would be to collect together some lists of encyclopedic sources on video games which could be used to provide evidence of notability? I tend to think doing so would be much more productive and useful than at least some of the comments above. John Carter (talk) 17:15, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

John Carter, don't jumb the gun! if google for reviews you'll see that articles could meet or standards of noticeabilty, just writers so terrorized by deleters that were afraid of creating new articles, they just don't want to waste time and efforts by writing something for Misplaced Pages - the place were all their efforts could be easily wasted just for pleasure of deleters (Idot (talk) 19:53, 16 June 2014 (UTC))

Here's an idea then. How about using those articles, assuming they all meet RS standards, to develop the articles rather than wasting time here in such comments? WP:BURDEN still applies to all, of course, but if you are so overwhelming concerned with these articles, why don't you use the reliable sources available and develop the content based on them than continue to waste time here. Honestly, I have to say paranoically complaining about the great deletionist cabal is probably a worse waste of time than many other things. And, considering that at least one of the "articles" in question has never been more than a one-sentence stub, isn't jumping the gun with an assumption to assume that if the subject was clearly established in the article with reliable sources and sufficient content, possibly worse than accusing others of "jumping the gun"? John Carter (talk) 20:24, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

John Carter, whether you simply don't understand, or pretending to not understand, the discussion is not about these two articles, the discussion is about overal situation in Misplaced Pages, I could choose another random topics of realatively new events, and see the same picture - writers are afraid to create new articles, while few years ago they were not afraid to start new articles (Idot (talk) 20:34, 16 June 2014 (UTC))

Well, good, then; we've weeded out bad editors who would have written about non-notable and likely-to-be-deleted topics. The thing here is that too many people get caught up in writing new articles much in the same way they get caught up in how many orcs they kill in an MMORPG. The quality of articles is more important than the quantity, so new editors should be steered towards expanding existing articles, partaking in talk page discussions about content, and so on. After a bit of time and experience under the belt, they will be better informed as to what the project's standard for notability is, and will produce higher-quality articles once they actually do get around to new creation. Tarc (talk) 20:49, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

The quality of articles is more important than the quantity, - This is often repeated but it is only partially true. Is it better to have 1 FA or 10 GA? I would go with the second, absolutely. Because -again- we're not here to look at ourselves and tell each other "shit, look at how good I am at writing encyclopedias as a hobby". We're here to provide a service to readers, that is, giving them compact and structured information on topics they look about. I prefer to find not-so-polished drafts on many subjects than excellent articles on a few subjects while being completely in the dark on the others. What matters is that we have articles that are properly referenced and factual and somewhat complete. All the rest is good, but secondary.

Also, it is much easier to create a new article, for a new editor, than to start editing an already complex one. You are less likely to get into conflicts with people who feel like owning the article, you feel more gratification. It's a gentler and more satisfying introduction. --cyclopia 21:07, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Tarc, I'm repating again the topics that sampled ARE DO NOTABLE, you can easily check by google, the is that writers are disatrrackted from Misplaced Pages, few years ago writers created article about all new noticable topics, now they don't do it (Idot (talk) 21:09, 16 June 2014 (UTC))

(e-c) FWIW, there are a huge number of articles around here are Stub or Start class article, and it is kind of hard to imagine many people would seriously object to their development. And, for all that you say the discussion isn't about the two articles you mention, they seem to be the only ones you are really concerned with, as per the last comment above. And, honestly, in a lot of the pages I linked to above of encyclopedic articles, there are still a large number of articles covered at serious length in encyclopedic sources which don't yet exist here. Also, I guess I have to apologize for Idot for having the arrogance and effrontery of assuming the comments with which he started this thread were what he was talking about. I fervently apologize for not using my mind-reading powers to realize his initial comments, which one generally assumes are the topic of a thread, were not in fact the topic of the thread. My deepest apologies for not being able to understand that I should not have based my understanding of this thread on the comments made to start it, but rather on the broader ideas which were at no point mentioned in them. Also, FWIW, regularly screaming in all-caps as you do is something most people have learned not to do early on, and the fact that you seem to be so fond of persisting in that behavior really does not reflect well on you. John Carter (talk) 21:19, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

You keep repeating this weak and fundamentally unprovable canard about "these articles would've been created years ago", but it is a ridiculous and foolish argument. If an article doesn't exist on a topic and you feel it should exist, stop whining on Jimbo's talk page and go flippin write it already YOURSELF. You keep saying "that's not my point", well I'm sorry bro, but it IS the point. Articles are written by people who come along and see a gap; if a gap exists, then perhaps the right person simply hasn't taken notice of that gap yet. I have only created a handful of articles myself over the years, because I am usually not terribly motivated to do so. Best Friends? now exists, though, as does Mut@ge.Mix@ge and the Internet Defense League. If I didn't do them then someone else likely would have...or maybe not, we cannot really say. Having a Misplaced Pages article on a topic does not validate the topic's existence, nor does the absence of an article diminish the topic's importance. This is an ongoing, always-growing (though sometimes shrinking by deletion, as needed) project. If you wish to contribute to it, then complain less and be more proactive. Tarc (talk) 21:21, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Tarc, deleters are telling they do improve articles, but you don't notice that now you demonstration a typical demonstrating a typical behavior of deleter - whiping by whip like a slave driver and giving order to write something (Idot (talk) 21:29, 16 June 2014 (UTC))

Well, who else is going to write them? I certainly couldn't - I don't know anything about the subject. The ironic thing is that such articles actually wouldn't have existed years ago. There were more gaps in the encyclopedia then. These days, any half-notable video game has an article about five nano-seconds after it's announced. So let's face it, if a 2008 video games article hasn't been written by now, that suggests two things to me - (a) it's so obscure that no Misplaced Pages editor who is familiar with it has written one, or (b) no-one actually cares. Yet go and look at Special:Newpages - there are pages being created there every minute about the notable, non-notable, and complete nonsense, some of which is filling those gaps. So take Tarc's advice and go and write it yourself, or stop complaining about some completely nonsensical idea that mystical "deletionists" are stopping people from writing such articles. It's bollocks, and always has been. If the subject is notable, it will not be deleted. Thanks, Black Kite kite (talk) 21:32, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Black Kite, the fact is few years ago was possible to find info about any new notciable film or game, now no it is not possible. do you have any other explanation except that "Idot should write article about all new noticable films and games?", few years ago I did not such things, but I could find info (Idot (talk) 21:40, 16 June 2014 (UTC))

I'm not saying "you should write them", I'm merely pointing out that no one has written them. If the subjects are notable there's absolutely no way whatsoever you can blame that on some mythical "deleters", it simply means that no-one has done so. There's probably hundreds of thousands of equally notable articles that haven't been written as well. Where I find obvious gaps that I can write about, I create those articles. So do other people. But that doesn't mean that Misplaced Pages is ever going to include everything that's ever existed. Black Kite kite (talk) 21:44, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Tarc, you jumping the gun again! the question is not "why I didn't write these articles", the question is "why writers did't write these articles, while few years ago they always covered new noticable topics?" personally I visit en-Wiki as a reader not as writer, and few years ago I could easily find info about any new noticable event (Idot (talk) 21:35, 16 June 2014 (UTC))

Again with the "while few years ago they always covered new noticable topics" canard. No, the project has never had a period of time when things were "always covered". Yes there are issues with editor retention these days, but you are not making an informed or even a really coherent argument to address it. Tarc (talk) 22:51, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

• Hell, maybe for some of us, deleting things is our raison d'être. We sit in our Gargamelian lair, practicing our cackling and our nefariousness, on the look out for fresh meat to delete. The apprentices to the Deletionists' Guild hit F5 at Special:NewPages, squashing the dreams of the "me and my friends play emo/rap-core in the garage, we even have a MySpace page, here's our article!" crowd, which may be an immediate rush, but it isn't sustaining for long. The journeyman will peruse the TMZs, the Daily Mails, and the like looking for the news-of-the-moment people and things...the hiccuping girls, the helicopter cats, the fountain-walkers...see if an article has been created yet, and if so, ruthlessly lay into it with the hallowed Blade of One Soul or the mighty Cudgel of a Single Happening. But the guildmasters, lo! The crafty folk. They are weary of such simple fare, and nothing but felling of a Wiki-Redwood will slake their thirst. The felling of a high-profile smear biography or a racist meme, the true nectar of the gods. Tarc (talk) 17:11, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

* I think it's inappropriate to compare deletionists to slave drivers. Though I'm not sure - can you believe we don't have any article on slave driver, only a redirect to a remarkably short and incomplete article on slavery? I mean, there was a time when it was a profession, no? But I think the deletionist pictures himself as the Editor In Chief in the big fancy office at one end of the building smoking his cigar, looking out through the glass panels at a big open factory floor with a sea of schmucks all scrambling, trying to figure out what their big boss is looking for, hoping that maybe this time their copy will be up to snuff, and they can eventually use their time at this unpaid internship to get a letter of recommendation for a better unpaid internship somewhere else. After all, Misplaced Pages is a fancy marble statue, and you can't have more than one Sculptor deciding what a statue is going to look like. And of course, as with all the fancy editors in all the fancy offices of the world, there are always those "compromises" to be made that the poor little schmucks scurrying around in the dirt below can't understand, stories that have to be spiked to reward the advertisers or mollify the government. The whole point of being the Editor In Chief is to make money, after all. Wnt (talk) 19:15, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

• about the readers: Misplaced Pages is donated mainly by readers! deleters are not main donators => thefore if readers cannot find that they look for they are less likely to donate
  if Misplaced Pages exists for pleasure of deleters, they ought to pay for every article that they delete, only in this case their pleasure of delete become more important then satisfaction of readers (Idot (talk) 21:19, 16 June 2014 (UTC))

This conversation has become farcical. I'm moving on; and I would suggest other editors do the same. Seattle (talk) 22:26, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

• let me explain the problem which Misplaced Pages has step-by-step:
  both Ironclad and Ironclad: Battle for Blood are noticable - you can check it by Google
  the same is about King's Bounty: The Legend and King's Bounty: Warrior of North - you can check it too
  so no doubt about noticeability => deleters argument about noticability is WRONG!
  
  if we compare situation now and few years ago we will see that:
  few years ago: Ironclad and King's Bounty: The Legend - were created and succesfully developed, they are not stubs and quality is not bad
  but nowadays we see that both Ironclad: Battle for Blood and King's Bounty: Warrior of North(redirect) were not written!
  it shows modern tendency: writers DO NOT create new articles, of the same noticabily which few years ago was enogh to create articles, so reader cannot find information that they look for
  and deleters do not have any reasonble explanation for that (Idot (talk) 07:50, 17 June 2014 (UTC))

• It shows nothing of the sort; read up on confirmation bias at your leisure. If the project does not have an article on a B-grade movie and a 4th-rate video game, no one will lose much sleep at night. Tarc (talk) 12:16, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
  • King's Bounty-franchise IS NOT 4th-grade game, the games franchise is known as Cult video game! so few years ago Misplaced Pages had articles about the franchise on time, but not now. do you have a resonable explanation of it? as I see not, 'coz you don't want to confess the fact that it is a clear result of deletionists actiuty, that lead to decrease of number of editors and new articles (Idot (talk) 12:44, 17 June 2014 (UTC))

Here's my take on your examples... we do want to cover these video games... but, I don't think we need separate articles on both King's Bounty: The Legend and King's Bounty: Warrior of North ... the two games are part of a series, and so are best covered by having one single article (perhaps called: King's Bounty (video game series), or something similar). The same would be true for the Ironclad games... I would suggest one single Ironclad (video game series) article that covers all of the games in the series.

I am often frustrated by the dualistic battle between Inclusionists and Deletionists... the arguments are flawed on both sides... because both "factions" forget that there is a third option: Inclusion in a related article. I don't consider myself an Inclusionist or a Deletionist... I am a "Mergerist". Blueboar (talk) 12:37, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I already confessed the other day that you're right, it is all a part of our master plan to destroy the Misplaced Pages. We're still awaiting funding for the underwater lair and for the sharks with frikkin' laser beams, though. Tarc (talk) 12:48, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Misplaced Pages is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top.
The Misplaced Pages community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to).. If proper sources do exist for these games and movies, you could have written an article in less time than it would have taken to complain repeatedly about reverse vampires supposedly deleting large tracts of articles. Resolute 13:17, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for co-creating Misplaced Pages. You are to Misplaced Pages what Stan Lee is to Marvel or Walt Disney to Disney. We are all grateful for your vision and foresight. Thank you Mr. Wales. --The Sockpuppet (talk to the hand) 10:23, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

• Well, I was thinking more like what Winston Churchill is to Europe: "From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic, an iron curtain has descended across the Continent..." and "We shall never surrender" or "...if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour'." Overcoming the forces of darkness. Something more like that, perhaps. -Wikid77 (talk) 12:15, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
  • As in, "human knowledge shall be kind to me, for I intend to sum it" perhaps? LeadSongDog come howl! 04:02, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

How interesting it is for you to hang yourself, what with the username and all. Thank you for turning yourself in. --k6ka (talk | contribs) 16:01, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Drat, I fell for it... LeadSongDog come howl! 18:58, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

New York Law School

Jimbo, are you aware that the New York Law School provided for free much of the meeting space for three days to the WikiConference USA that was recently held in Tribeca? (This was the conference that banned one planned attendee, only 18 hours before the sessions began, despite the conference being advertised as "open" even to those who are "skeptical" of the Wikimedia movement's work.) The conference space was worth $40,000, the conference committee reports. Anyway, the head of the NYLS, Anthony Crowell is reported to have said "this conference was organized by an independent organization, independent individuals, and for an independent purpose uncoordinated with the Law School". However, the conference director was Jennifer Baek, who attended New York Law School for four years, and has been an employed Fellow of the institution for the past 11 months. The Misplaced Pages articles about New York Law School, Anthony Crowell, and Carole Post (Executive Vice President at New York Law School) have been heavily tended to by Misplaced Pages Users Ajuncos and Leonora1805. Andrea Juncos is the Communications Director of New York Law School. Still researching how Leonora may have a conflict of interest, so we'll see. Anyway, just the usual vibe here -- I am looking to politely notify you of this (as it could potentially begin to look worse for the Wikimedia movement, if it's not addressed in an open and transparent way), and to see if you have any personal comment on the situation? Note, I am not really interested in the predictable commentary from Smallbones and Coretheapple, since they are not official representatives of the Wikimedia Foundation, while you are. - 2001:558:1400:10:DC33:3186:3BC3:3AEF (talk) 17:08, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

No, I have no personal comment on the situation. My views on these and related matters are well known. If you have a genuine question, please ask.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:43, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

The internet community is a bit confused: you say you are a supporter of free-speech and say you're a "free-speech" activist, yet "one planned attendee" gets banned and therefore is berobbed of his free speech, "only 18 hours before the sessions began, despite the conference being advertised as "open" even to those who are "skeptical" of the Wikimedia movement's work." How does your stance on free speech match the actions taken during that conference, if I may ask?--37.230.21.79 (talk) 22:10, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I might add that noone, including you and me knows what has happened, but given the way the OP has posed his question, it doesn't seem like he's an individual that is a menace to society and needs to be freed of his freedom to speak up? Maybe you could just ask the people responsible for this decision about their reasoning and the world may be a better place (understanding you and Misplaced Pages?)--37.230.21.79 (talk) 22:20, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Just as a passing comment, universities often provide "in kind" sponsorship by providing unused space for conferences. The value is a bit arbitrary - the cost of hiring an equivalent space can be very high, but the cost to an institution is generally very low. Especially if they don't need to employ any additional staff or security for the event. Providing this sort of in-kind sponsorship doesn't necessarily entail any additional relationship between the institution and the content or organisation of the conference, which is normally not something for which the university is responsible, although you would expect that they would have a degree of responsibility of they were aware of issues prior to agreeing to the in kind sponsorship. - Bilby (talk) 03:37, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• Even if we take discount heavily for the rather tendentious formulation of the above question, there remains a big issue here: is it okay for this Wikimedia-sanctioned event or that official Wikimedia conference to preemptively ban participation by a given individual? WMNY's 2014 Conference set a really bad precedent: not satisfied with their lengthy set of behavioral rules creepily designated the "Friendly Space Policy," they additionally refused admission to someone who planned on attending despite their catalog of proscriptions... Continuance of this ugly precedent can only lead to more ideological warfare down the road, I think... There have been a few stupid issues which have been talked to death about this conference: whether an interviewee was ambushed or misquoted by a reporter or whether he made a klutzy speaking blunder; the hubbub about catty conversations about the personal life of a WMF employee and the hurt feelings which resulted, etc. This, on the other hand, seems a really big issue — whether people banned from editing at En-WP can be made into unpersons and denied participation at WMF functions on an ad hominem basis. Carrite (talk) 03:20, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I have nothing to do with the conference, and I have no idea of the validity of the ban nor the reasoning behind it. In general, though, these friendly space policies are a very good idea. Conferences have been using them to formally handle cases of harassment, which traditionally they haven't all been handling well. It has been a step forward overall. The question as to whether those policies are always well used is a different matter, but it is good to see them in place. - Bilby (talk) 03:37, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Why is Friendly space a red-link? I'm interested in reading more about this topic. What other organizations have felt the need to implement such policies, and what are the reasons for them? Presumably event organizers have decided that federal and state laws regarding assault or harassment are insufficient, so they need to implement policies that go above and beyond those. I'd like to see stories about incidents where organizers wished that they had such a policy, but felt unempowered to do anything about a problem because they lacked the authority such a policy would have given them. Wbm1058 (talk) 15:31, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Here's the document in question, which I uploaded to Archive.org. LINK Carrite (talk) 15:49, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Right, I saw that before. I just don't understand why all of that isn't just implicitly understood. Why all public space in the USA isn't just "understood" to be that? Why it needs to be put in writing. It leads me to the conclusion that some participants at past conferences have not been "friendly", and need to be instructed to be friendly. Wbm1058 (talk) 17:22, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm troubled by this clause, harassment includes, but shall not be limited to... which seems to give the event organizers carte blanche to define anything as harassment. So, what if, I rolled my eyes at someone's comment, and in response, the organizers publicly expelled me for harassment without giving any specific reason why, thus impugning my character because I "harassed" someone at the conference, all because I rolled my eyes. I might be afraid to attend such a conference that might put my reputation at risk just because I momentarily forgot to be polite. Wbm1058 (talk) 17:37, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Terms of Use change

I just noticed

• The Wikimedia blog
• A letter from the Board
• The terms of use, as well as
• an article in the Wall Street Journal

The times they are a-changin'

Congratulations.

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 17:15, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Congratulations are certainly in order, as this is the largest, most positive step that's been taken to combat this blight. But there are still gaping holes. For example, paid editors can still hide behind the Outing and Harrassment policy. Good faith editors are still discouraged from linking to off-wiki evidence that User:Anonymous is John Doe the Misplaced Pages writer on pay4pr.com. Editors' expectations of privacy should end when they connect themselves to Misplaced Pages under their real name, for profit, anywhere public on the internet. Until this is addressed the new policy is only effective against those naive enough to fall for it. ThemFromSpace 21:53, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

As a strong supporter of rationalization of paid editing practices at WP, I'm also very happy with the change, which formally recognizes paid editing as a fact of life, to be declared and supervised. That's where reform starts. Next needs to come strict enforcement of anti-wikistalking rules for anyone failing to assume good faith and who abuses paid editors. That parallel need will ultimately be resolved at AN/I. Carrite (talk) 03:30, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

100% agreement there Carrite.--v/r - TP 06:04, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Correcting Carrite - the new ToU do not recognize that paid editors have a right to edit on Misplaced Pages. All they say is essentially "If paid editors edit Misplaced Pages they must declare each paid edit, and they must follow WP:COI and other rules." WP:COI also does not recognize that paid editors have a right to edit on Misplaced Pages. In fact it is pretty vague on many things, but it looks impossible to edit on the article page and follow those rules at the same time. It will likely all come down to the bright line rule - and we should probably explicitly state that as soon as everything has settled down.

I would hope that the hard-core advocates of paid editing would become more realistic at this point. The idea that paid editors are hounded and harassed is mostly a myth. Can anybody give a recent example of this happening? Rather, it seems like paid editors are the ones who harass volunteer editors who try to edit the articles that the paid editors want to own. The hard-core advocates of paid editing should realize that:

• At least 80% of Misplaced Pages editors want some reasonable regulation on paid editors
• The WMF has now declared that it wants some reasonable regulation on paid editors
• US law requires prominent disclosure (likely on the article page) of paid edits of article pages, and if this can't be done, then the edits cannot be made. EU law is similar, as are the laws for most countries.
• PRSA and CIPR ethics rules prohibit undisclosed paid edits.
• 11 top US PR firms have pledged to follow the ToU and WP:COI.
• WP:NOT still prohibits advertisements, PR content, promotion and marketing, which is what most paid editors are trying to add in one form or the other.

Now, if anybody wants to argue that paid editing of article pages is formally recognized as a fact of life, they've got a long row to hoe. They will almost certainly fail to change the new policy (the ToU) or WP:COI to reflect that "recognition." Why don't we just work together to make it abundantly clear that the bright-line rule applies? Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:07, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

There's not a single word about a "bright line rule" in the TOU language, only the very rational approach that paid editors must make declarations of their status and their employers on their user page or by alternate means of notification. This clearly implies a recognition that paid editors are here and will continue to come here; and it follows that if anyone starts stalking them and harassing them because of their correct and appropriate declarations of status according to the TOU, the matter will end up at AN/I and it will undoubtedly not go well for the stalkers. We already have rules about NPOV content to be enforced through the editorial process. As mentioned on Wikimedia-l, communities are free to make this section of the TOU more severe or to make it less severe or to set it aside completely (LINK) as Commons is already well on the way to doing. The "bright line rule" has already been rejected multiple times by En-WP, however, and has no more traction than it ever had and probably less. So: speaking as someone who thinks the solution to paid COI editing is for that work to be declared and supervised, I think the new TOU language is a big step forward. Carrite (talk) 14:49, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

The hard core supporters of paid editing are going to have to come to grips with the fact that they are a minority of a minority. The first minority is supporters of paid editing - certainly less than 20% of our editors - the 2nd minority is those among these supporters who want to push beyond the bright-line rule. The big public PR firms wouldn't be caught dead pushing for more paid editing now, and most of the remainder would just like some simple rule that they can live with - not the aggressive fighting for a ridiculous ideal that the hard core like to push for. The 20% minority can't change anything without cooperation from folks who believe in reasonable regulation. The hard core minority of the minority can't come close to changing anything at all. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 16:39, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

You and I read the politics here very differently. Perhaps you could point me towards a link for any RFC on Misplaced Pages in which the majority of the community resoundingly opined for the so-called "Bright Line Rule." Perhaps I missed something. Carrite (talk) 16:44, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, if you read the FAQs, you'll see they explicitly say most paid editing is fine . The use of "employer, client, and affiliation" with and rather than or is a bit strange (I suspect it'd be impossible for me to even find a list of the clients and affiliations of my employer), but the FAQ suggests they mean or, rather than and. WilyD 17:01, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I think a widely-advertised en.Misplaced Pages RfC on the bright line would be in order at this stage. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:04, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

The hard core opponents of paid editing are going to have to come to grips with the fact that they are a minority of a minority. @Anthonyhcole: Discussions have happened and these folks feel that paid and COI editors are coming en masse to disrupt them instead of accepting the consensus.--v/r - TP 17:05, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Just to clarify, TP: there has been a widely-advertised en.Misplaced Pages RfC on the Bright Line Rule. Have I got that right? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:15, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't know how 'highly advertised' they were, but there were several discussions around Nov 2013 linked here: Template:Paid Editing Parallel Proposals. For an RFC specifically on the bright line, see Misplaced Pages talk:No paid advocacy#RfC: Should WP:BRIGHTLINE become policy? which ended in oppose implementation (I read it better as no-consensus but the closer put it firmly in oppose). Smallbones & crew haven't accepted the results of the RFCs.--v/r - TP 17:50, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 18:05, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

"US law requires disclosure" is an absurd statement to make without contacting a lawyer. We should not be armchair lawyers here. Furthermore, "wants some reasonable regulation on paid editors" is a far cry from "wants to ban all paid editing" or even "wants a zero-tolerance policy". Ken Arromdee (talk)

Does this accurately reflect your views on COI editing?

"How we treat BDB right now is going to reflect on our overall treatment of COI editors. Jimmy recently changed his tune against all COI edits toward being against only undisclosed COI editors or COI editors on article space. We had a big change in our treatment of COI editors earlier this year and we need to be careful not to fall back into old habits."

Did you recently "change your tune?" Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 19:37, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

No, I have not changed my tune. I have long advocated for the best practice called the "Bright Line rule" which says that if you have a COI, you should generally not edit article space at all, and that any edits to talk pages should be accompanied by a clear disclosure of the conflict of interest. I still advocate for that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:17, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 20:19, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

And what about those administrators who are on friendly terms with certain users, don't you think they have a conflict of interest, too?--37.230.21.79 (talk) 22:04, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

In the end, it seems to me that this project is drawing criticism due to its lack of clear rules: One could assume that there is indeed a rule that says: Once an official is engaged in personal affairs and conversation, including sending Barnstars, praises etc. (trying to pander in any kind of way and gain the benevolence of an admin), there's to be drawn a clear line to prevent any form of favouritism or partisanship? Accordingly, anyone who is trying to interfere or barge in any kind of dispute, be it on content or an unblocking request or anything, should mandatorily be checked for any kind of connection or conversation with one of the involved parties. Where's the clear line that prevents this?--37.230.21.79 (talk) 22:27, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Jimmy, isn't your stance today different from when you gave this quote: "This is not complicated. There is a very simple ‘bright line’ rule that constitutes best practice: do not edit Misplaced Pages directly if you are a paid advocate." Has your chance changed since then, or did you mean "Misplaced Pages articles" when you said Misplaced Pages?--v/r - TP 23:44, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I found my answer here. @Figureofnine, I was mistaken. This has always been the case, so it shouldn't be a surprise to you after all.--v/r - TP 23:47, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

No, it isn't a surprise. But since you've described yourself to me as "pro-COI editing given conditions such as disclosure" (the edit is now deleted), and seem to have a battleground attitude toward editors you view as "paid editing haters," I think it would be best if you did not act as an administrator in disputes in which commercial COI or paid editing was an issue, as you have done with the Banc de Binary article. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 00:08, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

My problem with certain editors has nothing to do with the subjects of articles. I wasn't involved in a dispute between pro-COI and anti-COI editors when I entered the BDB topic. That battleground came later. There is no need for you to confuse the difference between a dispute involving someone with a COI and a dispute between pro-COI and anti-COI editors and then criticize me for knowing the difference. You continue to not take any responsibility for your behavior and the fact is that you cannot know the impact of what you are doing. I'd really like to be able to show you, but the nature of the impact of your comments is that COI editors are going to try not to be detected instead of being open and honest. So I can't show you, because it's immeasurable. You've done more harm than good and your not looking far enough into the future to see it. You think you've done good work here? I can't even articulate the amount of damage this is going to cause the project. There is a reason we encourage open disclosure and talk page editing. There is a reason Jimmy supports it. But you'd like to block their editor because they have a COI and you're tired of dealing with them. Well, hello? That's a great time for you to step away, and not harm the project in the process. The proposal for a block on ANI is a punishment. You've said as much yourself when you said that after a month we will unblocking them. How is that preventative? What you want is to show them we mean business be casting them to the timeout corner for a period of time. My proposal can provide a foundation for them to edit and meets the community's concerns that they are being over-pushy. I've outlined what I think is a desirable outcome at WP:DESIRABLEOUTCOME. The least sanctions necessary. The least necessary isn't a block, you admit that when you say we can unblock them. But you're so sure of yourself, you're not listening to reason. I've tried explaining in every way why your approach won't work, I wish you'd take the time to try to understand me rather than focusing your attention to defending what you're doing.--v/r - TP 00:27, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

And for the record, the only administrator action I ever did in this topic area was to close this thread in your favor.--v/r - TP 00:30, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

So you're continue to continue to act as an uninvolved administrator when commercial COI or paid editing is involved? You've just shown me again why it's not a good idea, now I'd like to know if you're not going to do it. The reason I ask is that because of deletion of remarks that had to be oversighted because you "outed" an editor, the following remark by you is no longer in the edit history of your talk page:

Whether you knew beforehand or not, you've in the middle of a long dispute on Misplaced Pages, the presence of which now that I've realized has removed my impartiality. and apparently as well, are anti-COI editors with a history of hostility toward COI editors. They didn't just naturally come to the BDB page. They came willingly. BDB isn't just wasting their time, they choose to waste their time with BDB. I don't know about you yourself, but I know about them. They, and apparently I, also have a conflict of interest now because I've been pro-COI editing given conditions such as disclosure. This isn't about BDB at all, it's about COI. and don't care about BDB at all. This is just another battleground. And you're in the middle of it. Congratulations.

The two editors whose names I redacted are two established editors who you've disagreed with. That's why I think that you have a battleground attitude and feel you shouldn't act as an administrator on articles and disputes involving COI editing. Since you outed another editor (which is why I redacting) you probably shouldn't be an administrator at all, but they are lifetime appointments and I'm realistic. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 00:42, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

That's very disappointing. You've chosen to threaten me rather than address my concerns about how you treat COIs. The answer is no, I will not make a commitment about a future action I may or may not take based on no history of problems to someone who doesn't understand what the problem is and is contributing to it and who does not hold the authority to require it. If you want to hold a discussion or seek Jimbo's fiat then so be it. The likelihood of it is that you'll be told to wait until there is a problem before creating a solution. I answer to the community, not to you alone. There is no such thing as 'established editors' and whether I argued with two 'established editors' or two editors doesn't make the slightest difference. What you are doing, and what is apparent, is you are trying to create a chilling effect because you view me and me having tools as a threat despite no actual misuse of the tools to support your fear. The day you find I've acted inappropriate, that day and only after that day, may you ask me to answer to the community. I'm very disappointed, I thought for a few hours based on the discussion on my talk page that you might not be one of those who has a knee-jerk reaction to COI editing and might be thoughtful about it. It appears I was very wrong.--v/r - TP 02:50, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Let's get back on topic, which is you. You have acted inappropriately, and you know perfectly well that you have, and you correctly removed yourself as an uninvolved administrator from the BDB dispute.

You responded to an editor's comment on the BdB talk page by outing him. This is one of the editors you feel "hate" paid editing. He made an innocent informational comment, not directed at you or anyone, and you responded as you did. It was a nasty and totally gratuitous thing to do. Even if it wasn't outing, it was gratuitous, it was intemperate. It is something an administrator shouldn't do. It is something you shouldn't have done. But you don't feel that you did anything wrong, and as of this writing you haven't even had the common courtesy to apologize for doing that, to the editor or anyone. The editor in question, I'll call him Mr. X as I don't want to draw attention to what you did to him, is one of the editors that you have stated you feel is a "paid editor hater." When it comes to editors like that, Mr. X and Mr. Z, a fellow administrator, the gloves are off as far as TParis is concerned. When I raised the issue on your talk page, you gave me a lot of technical gobbledygook. You said I was "trolling." I wasn't trolling. I was disturbed that you had outed someone. You had. The edits are now deleted.

There is no reason not to believe that another BDB situation won't arise, and all I'm saying is that if it does, if paid editing or commercial COI is an issue, you're just too emotional and too wrapped up in the issue to act as an uninvolved administrator. Speaking of disappointment, when you voluntarily recused from acting as an uninvolved admin in BDB I was thrilled. Your statement above, which I quoted, showed self-awareness. I was hoping for better from you and yes, I was disappointed, first by your emotionality and defensiveness and next by your circling the wagons again and not admitting what you said in your deleted comment: that you have a conflict of interest on this subject, an agenda, and should not be functioning as an uninvolved editor when you are very much and emotionally involved. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 11:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

One last thing: I'm a weekend warrior. I have spent hours more on this BDB thing than I had planned this week. I'm not paid to edit here unlike the BDB people that you want to "help" and who you feel are the "good faith" editors here despite their disruptive socking. Take the gloves off. I'm one of "them" now. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 11:30, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• Just giving my 2cents. I have seen both Good COI and Bad COI editors. The best that i Have seen are ones that IMMEDIATELY say they have COI and ask for help such as Chris (btw they still need help at SEN plz help), and bad ones who edit war and use sneaky maneuvers to get their company a positive page. Now i have nothing against editors who want to improve their company via proper channels but the bad ones are despicable. Retartist (talk) 06:08, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

If we can all just agree that there is a difference between good COI editors (paid and unpaid) and bad COI editors (paid and unpaid) along the lines you suggest; and if we can all agree that the good ones are to be worked with to produce an NPOV outcome and the bad ones are to have their damage minimized and to be shown the door, we can have this problem solved once and for all. There is less difference between "pro-COI" and "anti-COI'" Wikipedians than is commonly realized. It's just a matter of solving the tactical question of "regulation" v. "prohibition." It's pretty clear that the former approach has majority support at English WP and is implicit in the new TOU rules. Let's all work together on this. Carrite (talk) 15:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

@Figureofnine: That's cute how you thing you can dictate the topic. You did the same thing on ANI. The topic here is whatever Wikipedians want to discuss. Have you not read WP:ANI Advice? It applies here as much as ANI. What you think is gratuitous, I see as an editor using Misplaced Pages to gain fame. Thats a COI violation as well. Misplaced Pages is not here to make anyone famous and edits should not be made with the intention of showing off to the media. That has led administrators to earn site bans here.--v/r - TP 17:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

TP, have you at any time disclosed in this discussion, or others concerning Banc de Binary, or the one above concerning the Terms of Use change, or the Conflicts of Interest guideline (such as before making this edit), that you yourself have been a paid advocacy editor? See the exchange with User:John Cline and myself at User talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive 148. Defenders of paid editing talk a lot about the need for "transparency" and "disclosure." Where's your transparency? Where's your disclosure?

I think that this is not just a question of whether you should be an uninvolved administrator in certain situations, but whether you're behaving the way an administrator should in a more general way. I'd like to hear more about your justification for outing someone. I guess you feel that he is "rotten," right? On 12 May 2014, approximately seven months after the exchange on this page on your paid editing, and whether you had lost the trust of the community, I found a little "ping" at the top of my page, a notification from your talk page. I went there, and I found the following reference to myself from you: "Coretheapple is a rotten one. He is idealistic and naive. He thinks he can change the spin of the earth by his simple willpower. I've only ever stood up for him once, in some random unblock request, and it wasn't in any way motivated by some kind of like for the guy." So let's see. WP:OUTING is OK when someone you don't like is "using Misplaced Pages to gain fame," whatever that means. (Please explain.) personal attacks are fine when a person you don't like... well, I guess one can say that when a person you don't like exists because I had had no interactions with you in seven months before you attacked me on your talk page. And then there's your not disclosing your personal stake in paid editing, your being a paid editor, when the subject is discussed. How do you reconcile all this with the requirement in WP:ADMIN to "lead by example and to behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others"? Coretheapple (talk) 17:35, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Actually, the oversight team came back and said that it was no outing because the editor disclosed their name on Meta. Smallbones outed himself in this edit and figureofnine doesn't know what he's talking about. So, no, I haven't outed anyone. And, Coretheapple, I have never edited this project for money. I have advised on one article, and I wrote another article that someone else posted. Not once have I edited for money. So I thank you not to suggest I have. My only 'paid edit' on any WMF project was to upload a picture to commons which has a much different policy. And you'll find disclosure on the talk page of that picture. I have no need to disclose anything on BDB's page, I dont have a COI with it. That's like saying that editors who disagree on WP:V and WP:N have to closure on every article they edit that they disagree with those policies. In fact, your staunch disagreement with the COI policy would require you to share on those pages that you are an opponent of ENWP's current wording. So please, be sure to do so.--v/r - TP 19:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Elliot Rodger

Soooooo, it turns out the Isla Vista killer edited Misplaced Pages. Thought you or the countless people who watch this page might be interested in that detail.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:48, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Read it. Particularly interested was I, when it became apparant that I had been the last to revert Rodger's edits and warn him. Chilling indeed. Apart from that, the article provided is absolutely repugnant; but one expected nothing less. —MelbourneStar☆ 13:11, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

This may sound strange for sure, but its the content that is generally the factor as to undoing or banning users for things such as vandalism. For example if the leader of Al-Qaeda edited France's page to state the Capital was Paris (just hypothetical) we couldn't really undo it because it is technically true, if the content of such edits were actually by him and are in violation of guidelines though I suppose something could be done. SandeepSinghToor (talk) 09:56, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Ah well according to the page you provided what he did was clearly something against Wiki rules, however I am still unsure what can be done if the edits were already undone at the time of his alleged vandalism (alleged because by no means am I a qualified expert on accusing him of such) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SandeepSinghToor (talk • contribs) 09:59, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Wow, bad people are on the Internet, just like good people. Who would have ever imagined that. I am absolutely astonished. /s --cyclopia 13:32, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

But how exactly are we supposed to know that the said editor had, shall we say, "issues"? Just as a cop isn't going to hesitate to shoot a man who had mental health issues and was going on a drive-by shooting. Users on Misplaced Pages aren't required to post their personal information, and even then it still doesn't excuse them from removing content from articles without explanation. Heck, if Barack Obama came in and edited the Barack Obama page, adding unsourced content and original research, claiming that "It's an article about me, and so I obviously know what goes here", it would still be reverted. Users aren't permitted to write autobiographies (except maybe in their userspace), and if they are notable enough for an article, they can request than an article be created about them. But other than that, blanking articles in frustration is like climbing the Reichstag dressed as Spiderman. You're not going to get people to listen to your point - you're only going to annoy them and earn yourself a block. --k6ka (talk | contribs) 14:39, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• Actually, although Rodger failed to remove the image from footjob, he succeeded in getting the image for blowjob (Fellatio) removed for over a year. After Rodger was banned, two IP editors in the 68.37.*.* range took up the cause of deleting each of these two particular images, succeeding despite a lack of talk page agreement via a compliant user who (apparently wrongly, since the file is still here) claimed copyright problems with File:Fellatio.jpg in his edit summary. I took the liberty of reverting him in May. A request I made at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/ElliotR1 was dismissed and deleted but most of the information is here. I don't recall what the tool was to search a whole block of IP edits or if it still exists (everything on toolserver goes down sooner rather than later) but I wouldn't be surprised if you can do some fertile mining there if you have access or write one. Wnt (talk) 16:30, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Putin khuilo!

Hallo Jimmy, normalerweise würde ich dich nicht belästigen, da du sicher genügend zu tun hast, aber vielleicht könntest du dir diesen Artikel einmal selber anschauen: hier wird massiv versucht Misplaced Pages für Agitprop zu mißbrauchen. MfG --Jack User (talk) 13:45, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi Jimmy, I wouldn't normally bother you, because you sure enough to do, but maybe you could you this article look: here is a massive attempt to abuse Misplaced Pages for Agitprop. Sincerely --Jack User (talk) 13:45, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

This article/its deletion or lack thereof is being discussed in at least three different places (WP:ANI, WP:HD, here, etc. (brought up by different users, including OP, for different reasons)). It currently has an open AFD discussion (that was briefly overtaken by SPAs and socks looking to tilt the discussion to keep, but that's been taken care of). Maybe it would be best to let that discussion run its course, Jack User. - Purplewowies (talk) 16:57, 17 June 2014 (UTC)