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Removal of chiropractic from pseudoscience category

This is the preferred categorization https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Alternative_theoretical_formulations. The time has come. Chiropractic management is primarily for MSK disorders and back and neck pain specifically. The fringe faction or specific traits of those practitioners are clearly delineated now, and there is no doubt that chiropractic care for MSK is not fringe. DVMt (talk) 15:59, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Really? because it looks to me that the crazy is alive and well in the chiropractic world.--McSly (talk) 22:19, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

This would be considered fringe. You seem to be conflating what constitutes 'mainstream chiropractic practice' (MSK) and fringe chiropractic practice (non-MSK). Regards, DVMt (talk) 22:21, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

The questionable source in the article supports "minority", not "fringe". 15% is a bit large for "fringe". — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:29, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

If someone were to write a separate article on MSK chiropractic, that might not be pseudoscience. Any article including the history should note that it was pseudoscience when it started, putting it convincingly into the category. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:32, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Chiropractic is full blooded Pseudoscience. No question about it, and fringe pushers cannot change that. -Roxy the dog (resonate) 22:40, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Interesting proposal, Arthur. MSK chiropractic is essentially evidence-based chiropractic since that's where the majority of the research lies. Unorthodox, or fringe constitutes 19%. Dissidents is another word. What I do know is we can't label the whole profession 'pseudoscientific'. What about my proposal about alternative theoretical formulations? Roxy, spoken like a true extremist. DVMt (talk) 22:48, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Vertebral subluxations (or nonallopathic lesions; you can't eliminate non-science just by renaming the terms) are still pseudoscience, although some orthopedic subluxations do exist. I wouldn't go as far as Roxy, but there are enough "mainstream" (as generally observed) chiropractors who use the "subluxation" lingo that the field still fits into pseudoscience. If the governing boards and most schools completely rejected "subluxations", I might agree it might no longer be pseudoscience, although it's still not entirely evidence-based. Mainstream medicine isn't entirely evidence-based, so I wouldn't reject chiropractic solely on that basis. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:04, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

This is the elephant in the room. Mainstream chiropractic views subluxation as a synonym for joint dysfunction or a mechanical problem with the spine segments. Fringe chiropractic views it as interference with the life force and is a cause for disease. The current subluxation article doesn't reflect both views. Regardless of who provides the manipulation, be it a DC, DO, PT they are all attempting to restore mobility and reduce pain at a specific part of the spine, hence the term 'manipulable lesion' or IOW that site that you're applying the manipulation. The difference between a chiropractic subluxation (aka joint dysfunction) is that there is no structural damage to the corresponding joints and soft and connective tissues. It's a functional problem. Orthopedic subluxations are literally unstable joints that are hyper mobile with structural damage and an absolute contraindication to manipulative techniques. I should point out that the ICD-10 recognizes the subluxation complex as a diagnosis under the musculoskeletal section under biomechanical lesions . This, again, reinforces the MSK aspect that is considered 'mainstream' unless we don't consider the ICD-10 and the WHO credible sources. DVMt (talk) 15:56, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Arthur Rubin (talk · contribs), do you have anything to add? DVMt (talk) 15:56, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

If it could be established by mainstream (and I mean generally recognized as mainstream, without assuming that Chiropractic is mainstream) medical reliable sources that spinal joint disfunction, not amounting to orthopedic subluxations, can cause damage to the body, and (even from Chiropractic sources), that "straight" chiropractic are no longer accepted by the profession, then there would be some justification for removing the pseudoscience characterization. You have provided plausible evidence for the first, but there's still none for the second. At best you have provided evidence that "straight" chiropractic forms a small minority, but that doesn't show they aren't accepted within the profession. A profession which accepts pseudoscientists is still pseudoscientific, even if their numbers are few. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:18, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Arthur Rubin (talk · contribs), take a peek in my sandbox to see spinal joint dysfunction research --biomechanics, theory, etc. As a scientist you know well that there is continuum in science --pseudoscience -> junk science ->fringe science, etc. It's not really fair to 4/5 practitioners that practice "mainstream" (defined as primarily spinal/MSK based) to be labelled pseudoscientific bc of a rogue faction that has no support within or outside the profession. Hence, the proposal for alternative theoretical formulations. Or, even having two categories, but so long as we clearly delineate what specific aspects of clinical practice are considered fringe. I'm open to suggestions. DVMt (talk) 15:06, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Based on Arthur Rubin's comments, there seems to be the initiative to further the discussion. Where would be the best place to have such a discussion? Here, WP:FRINGE talk, etc. DVMt (talk) 20:23, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

. The article as is does not follow MEDMOS for specialties . I'm going to reorganize the headings so they are consistent with this. DVMt (talk) 14:55, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

This discussion is relevant here. Here .

I began thinking this whole pseudoscience issue from a completely new perspective. So far, we know that there are critics out there who have called chiropractic as pseudoscience, and I don't doubt that this wasn't the case in the early history of chiropractic. However, what it might have been over 100 years ago, it does not define what chiropractic is today. Just like any science, chiropractic has developed over the course of years, and many believes have been dropped out later that has turned out to be total nonsense. Here, chiropractic is not alone.
However, this is my point. There sure is easy to find sources that classify chiropractic as pseudoscience. However, as we very well know, there is education given on chiropractic at public universities. Public universities do not qualify other than sciences, not even pseudosciences, no matter what some critic might say. Now, it is much easier to find a source where some critic is disputing the status of chiropractic rather than find a source where some advocate is making a plea for chiropractic. After all, the burden of proof is on the one who is making the criticism.
Mere accusations cannot undo the fact that chiropractic is accepted and educated among public universities across the countries. Therefore, accepting one critic's authority over the authority of Universities is highly ... let say, questionable. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 11:35, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

The text is sourced

The tag is bogus. See Chiropractic#Controversy.

""Straights" tend to rely exclusively on spinal adjustments, to emphasize innate intelligence, and to subscribe to the notion that subluxation "is the leading cause of disease in the world today."42 The text in the body is also sourced. For example: "“Innate intelligence” evolved as a theological concept, the representative of Universal Intelligence (=God) within each person.36 D.D. Palmer was convinced he had discovered a natural law that pertained to human health in the most general terms. Originally, manipulation was not a technique for treating spinal or musculoskeletal problems, it was a cure for all human illness: “95% of all diseases are caused by displaced vertebrae, the remainder by luxations of other joints.”37"

Palmer DD (1910). The Chiropractor's Adjuster: Text-book of the Science, Art and Philosophy of Chiropractic for Students and Practitioners. Portland, OR: Portland Printing House Co. OCLC 17205743. A subluxated vertebra ... is the cause of 95 percent of all diseases ... The other five percent is caused by displaced joints other than those of the vertebral column.

This is a commonly known fact and there are many sources that can verify the same text. QuackGuru (talk) 17:42, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

According to Daniel D. Palmer, the founder of chiropractic, subluxation is the sole cause of disease and manipulation is the cure for all diseases of the human race.

The source does not state this. This is a misrepresentation of the research. What else did you take liberties with paraphrasing? This is very concerning indeed. DVMt (talk) 23:09, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

"The “straights” religiously adhere to D.D. Palmer's notions of the “innate intelligence” and view subluxation as the sole cause and manipulation as the sole cure of all human disease" Straight out of the first source under the 'Internal Conflict' section. 203.38.24.65 (talk) 08:27, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

I forgot about that part. The text is sourced and it is accurate. I think the tag can be removed now. QuackGuru (talk) 17:22, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

To remain IMHO. Who are you mystery ip-man? I think {{pp-sock|small=yes}} might do the case. What do the other editors think? Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 18:39, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

The low level details about the date 1910 is unnecessary and is original research. QuackGuru (talk) 18:48, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

If we don't provide the date (1910) then there is no context. Considering that leaving at is suggests there's been no change in 104 years, that seems misleading. DVMt (talk) 16:31, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

The article is also misleading in the sense that it suggest the profession has not changed/evolved from its origins, namely that subluxation is the cause of diseases which is given tremendous weight here. This tertiary source Bergmann, T.F., Perterson D.H (2011). Chiropractic Technique: Principles and Procedures. Elsevier. ISBN 9780323049696. clearly states that " This monocausal view of disease has been abandoned by the profession" and this 2012 systematic review states that "preferring a holistic view of subluxation that is viewed as theoretical construct in a "web of causation" along with other determinants of health. Henderson, C.N.R (October 2012). Journal of Electromyography and Kinesiology 22 (5): 632–642.. These sources changes everything because it refutes the myth that QuackGuru is trying to perpetuate in 2014: that the profession still thinks that subluxation is the sole cause of disease for the human race. The more I dig into the sources of the articles, the more I am seeing critical errors in QG's interpretation, which was also noted by other editors at the Electronic Cigarette. DVMt (talk) 16:57, June 2, 2014‎ (UTC)

Those sources do not change what Daniel D. Palmer said. The text (According to Daniel D. Palmer) makes it clear it is according to the founder not the whole profession. QuackGuru (talk) 21:11, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

No one is disputing what was published in 1910. It's the fact that you're not providing context by not including when it was published. WP generally prefers sources within 3-5 year range and we are still using a text from 1910, out of context. I don't have a problem with using this in a historical context, and User:BullRangifer is technically wrong that a textbook is primary source, as it is a tertiary source. So, let's try to find a compromise here and work together on this minor detail. DVMt (talk) 22:26, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

We are using a 2008 review. The 1910 source was not needed to backup the content. Where in the 2008 source or the 1910 source did it say when Daniel D. Palmer made the claim. I don't know the actual date when he made the claim. Please provide a direct quote from the source. What is your specific proposal or compromise? QuackGuru (talk) 22:39, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

The use of a 1910 originating source sounds highly trivial to me but it might be justified though in the history section. If it's still included to the lede, the positive stances on chiropractic should be summarized in the lede as well. These things comprehend things such as: current recognition among mainstream medicine, acceptance in the current care guidelines on different regional levels (e.g. Finland and the European Union), and the education given in public universities (public universities do not qualify other than sciences (not even pseudo-sciences, no matter what some critic might say). Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 11:06, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

The article covers all aspects, including the past and origins. That's the relevance here. I don't see why including the date for the publication of the quote should be problematic. Just do it. It's always good to give context, and the date is important for that purpose. This was the historical position advocated by DD Palmer and taught to his students, with some straights still believing it. It was the basis for pretty much the whole profession up until the 1970s, when some DCs started pushing for a more sensible stance. Otherwise nearly all chiro education taught this, and some of the largest schools still push it in modified forms. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:19, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Current text: "According to Daniel D. Palmer, the founder of chiropractic, subluxation is the sole cause of disease and manipulation is the cure for all diseases of the human race."

I could not verify the claim using the source from 1910. I removed the 1910 source because I could not verify the claim but we already have a 2008 source that does clearly verify the claim. Verification for the whole sentence still has not been provided using the 1910 and it has not been verified when DD Palmer made the claim. I think context is good but verification should be provided. If editors want to keep the source for historical context that is fine with me. QuackGuru (talk) 16:02, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the date should be provided for context, Brangifer. You made a false claim. It was the basis for pretty much the whole profession up until the 1970s That isn't accurate at all. The profession since the beginning was divided into straights/focused scope, and mixers/broad scope per this tertiary source, and it's been a long time since the straights were a minority as per Kapchuk and Eisenberg, as used in this article. As I already mentioned at QG talk page, you are skewing the facts . In fact, the research shows that currently less than 20% of practice according to Palmer doctrine. Despite continued concerns by mainstream medicine, only a minority of the profession has retained a perspective in contrast to current scientific paradigms. " . Don't make the same mistakes as QG and misrepresent the literature. You are more moderate than he, but seem to be prone to making the same fundamental errors of citing your opinion as fact. DVMt (talk) 16:13, June 6, 2014‎ (UTC)

DVMt, you mention a "false claim". I think we have a rather simple misunderstanding here. The straight/mixer thing has to do with treatment modalities, not belief structure. Straights use ONLY joint adjusting (the really pure ones only use "manual" adjusting, never tools). Mixers use various modalities, in addition to manipulation. Members of both groups can believe in the "one cause, one cure" idea, but it is more prevalent among straights. Those members have the same goal (to find and remove subluxations), but use different methods. That's all. Until relatively recently Medicare only covered "manual manipulation" for the purpose of correcting subluxations visible on x-ray. That has changed. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:33, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Brangifer, I respectfully disagree. You have made additional claims (Straights use ONLY joint adjusting (the really pure ones only use "manual" adjusting, never tools) which is refuted by this paper . It states Regardless of how they label themselves philosophically, chiropractors tend to practice in similar ways: 98% recommend exercise to their patients; 94% offer periodic maintenance or wellness care; 93% make a differential diagnosis; 93% offer ergonomic recommendations; 88% provide general nutrition advice; 86% give stress-reduction recommendations. Next you claim "Members of both groups can believe in the "one cause, one cure" idea, but it is more prevalent among straights.". This not the case. Evidence shows clearly shows this belief in one cause one cure is retained exclusively by the unorthodox/fringe faction Chiropractors holding unorthodox views may be identified based on response to specific beliefs that appear to align with unorthodox health practices. Despite continued concerns by mainstream medicine, only a minority of the profession has retained a perspective in contrast to current scientific paradigms. . Lastly, the monocausal view has been rejected by the profession this monocausal view of disease has been abandoned by the profession preferring a holistic view of subluxation that is viewed as theoretical construct in web of causation along with other determinants of health..

I previously requested verification for the specific date DD Palmer made the claim. So far no verification was provided. I don't have a problem with adding context but I think the context should be verified. QuackGuru (talk) 19:35, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Ordering of sections

User:Jmh649 reverted a change made regarding the ordering of the sections here stating 'Not sure why the change in ordering of sections'. This is tendentious. I clearly stated 'Re-organize per MEDMOS in the diff . I had discussed this earlier today at the talk page but I guess Doc James isn't listening. Why, specifically did you revert the changes when the summary was clearly listed as indicated in the diff? Please extend good faith and let other editors than QuackGuru and other skeptics edit this article. Thank you. DVMt (talk) 23:18, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Your change did not reorganize per WP:MEDMOS. Thus I reverted. I see no consensus for the edit here. You placed your comment under the heading "Removal of chiropractic from pseudoscience category" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:23, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Okay have created a proper section for this discussion as it of course has nothing to do with the previous heading. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:32, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Ah so chiropractor is a medical specialty. Chiropractic is a treatment IMO. Doc James (talk ·

The problem here is that Jmh649 is not a skeptic. He is a cynic operating under the grand delusion that he is a skeptic. Skeptics are open to evidence which completely belie what they already hold to be true. A cynic makes up their mind and just says "no" to everything else. Editors like this are truly as bad for WP as all the woo pushers. What's worse is that they cast all of the true skeptics down with all of the woo pushers, because they don't like anything positive ... Nay ... Neutral written about a subject which they have prejudged to be entirely woo. This article doesn't have any woo pushers AFAICT, just moderate editors who want to write a neutral article, and cynical editors who want only to present the subject in the most negative light as possible. I challenge these cynics to disengage from this article for three months to see if their worst fears come true – that the article would be completely overhauled into a complete marketing, puff piece or (and I'm betting this is more likely) a fact-based, truly NPOV article finally emerges. I encourage Doc James and the likes to accept this challenge. If I lose my bet, well good on you. Your cynical POV pushing is needed here after all. But if I win my bet, just think of all the time you will save knowing that you don't have to patrol this article anymore. Challenge accepted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.9.178.2 (talk) 05:11, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

WP isn't about asserting opinions, it's about asserting facts. Chiropractic is a health care profession. It is not a treatment. This is a fundamental mistake. we've been over this. Also, according to this source, it states "Chiropractic, the medical profession that specializes in manual therapy and especially spinal manipulation. The same article also states that "Even to call chiropractic "alternative" is problematic; in many ways, it is distinctly mainstream. Furthermore, it is stated in the lede "and although chiropractors have many similarities to primary care providers, they are more similar to a medical specialty like dentistry or podiatry." . The evidence is compelling. The onus is on you to prove that it is not a profession, or medical specialty, since you're making the claim. DVMt (talk) 01:11, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

It is also used to mean a form of alt med as per our first sentence of our article. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:20, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Your interpretation is rather bizarre and you're conflating things. Please address the literature above, with literature to rebut. You seem not to like it, but that doesn't change the fact chiropractic is a profession and not a treatment. Please use peer-reviewed literature to support your claim, your personal opinon isn't relevant in this matter. DVMt (talk) 01:36, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Chiropractic is definitely a profession and not a technique. I have presented the evidence here before, but it is good to review it whenever the discussion arises: There is legislation to recognize and regulate chiropractic as a profession in 48 countries and in some of those countries the profession/technique debate has even been settled in court. For example, in Brazil a Federal Judge ruled that: "chiropractic is a profession and not a technique". The WHO defines chiropractic as "A health care profession concerned with..." and, in the US where chiropractic is most prominent, the NIH/NCCAM describes chiropractic as "a health care profession that focuses on...". Most importantly, the bulk of mainstream secondary sources discuss chiropractic as a profession. For example: 1)"Chiropractic, the medical profession that specializes in..." and 2)"Chiropractic is the best established of the alternative health care professions.... Moreover, according to our article and published analyses of the profession, the 'techniques' are joint manipulation, soft-tissue manipulation, therapeutic exercise, ergonomics, etc.Puhlaa (talk) 04:03, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for chipping in User:Puhlaa. The evidence is rather overwhelming, but not surprising. What I am surprised about is such a fundamental error (technique vs. profession) can be perpetuated. DVMt (talk) 16:17, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Now that we've established, yet again, that chiropractic is a profession and not a technique, does anyone have any specific objections to re-ordering the sections per MEDMOS The lede clearly states that the profession shares more of attributes of a medical specialty, like dentistry or podiatry and we have multiple sources that confirm this. Regards, DVMt (talk) 22:45, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I think the current ordering of the sections per MEDMOS is okay. The previous drastic re-ordering of the sections was confusing. QuackGuru (talk) 22:49, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

The article is not ordered per MEDMOS . That's the purpose of the discussion to make it compliant with MEDMOS. Also, please don't fall into the the same old habits of of not listening. It's tendentious. Lastly, please provide evidence to support your position. These discussions need to be based on facts, evidence and not asserting opinions. Thanks, DVMt (talk) 23:02, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion, the re-arrangement per MEDMOS improved the article. Why can't we just follow what MEDMOS says? Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 11:06, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Will re-arrange per MEDMOS. Chiropractic is not a treatment, it is a profession, a specialty. DVMt (talk) 19:58, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't see consensus for this change. This was previously explained by User:Jmh649 before. QuackGuru (talk) 20:02, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

You're being tendentious again, QuackGuru. You're also not not listening again. You need to bring evidence to support your claim. Your opinion alone is irrelevant. Are you asserting that chiropractic is a treatment and not a profession? If not, please stop trying to own every aspect of this article. You're only 1 day back from your block and it seems as though you've learned nothing. Relying on Doc James unconditional support isn't doing him any favours. DVMt (talk) 20:45, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Chiropractic is both a treatment and a profession. I agree that chiropractor should be arranged as per the profession but IMO this should be arrange as per a treatment. This is an editorial decision. We could have a RfC to bring in greater input if you wish. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:18, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Doc, I presented evidence that said chiropractic was a medical specialty. You have yet to rebut this with any evidence, and your opinion isn't a substitute for facts. It is clearly a profession and thus the article should be MEDMOS compliant. We've come to a stalemate here, so we can go to dispute resolution. DVMt (talk) 06:55, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

"Chiropractic care is a way to diagnose and treat health problems" "Chiropractic is most effective for treating" and "Who Should Not Be Treated with Chiropractic" . These are all uses of the term to mean a method of care or a method of treatment. It is also used to mean a profession use. And members of that profession are chiropractors and that article should be organized as per a profession. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:52, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

That logic is rather faulty. You do realize that SMT isn't the only service provided by chiropractors, no? We can take this to DR; you're still equating the profession with a treatment, and despite the plethora of evidence and a previous dispute resolution, you want to impose your interpretation. So, we will have to agree to disagree and get outside analysis. Neuraxis (talk) 15:00, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Scientific Chiropractic: Advice from Quackwatch

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chirochoose.html

Steve's tips (2000)

Positive Signs

1. Try to find a chiropractor whose practice is limited to conservative treatment of back pain and other musculoskeletal problems.
2. In addition to manual manipulation or stretching of tight muscles or joints, science-based chiropractors commonly use heat or ice packs, ultrasound treatment
3. They may also recommend a home exercise program.

Negative Signs

• Avoid chiropractors make claims about curing diseases, try to get patients to sign contracts for lengthy treatment,
• Use scare tactics (scare care) , or disparage scientific medical treatment or
• Disparage preventive measures such as immunization or fluoridation.
• Who have waiting room literature promoting "nerve interference" as the underlying cause of disease,

Conclusions

1. Barett acknowledges there is a scientific-based chiropractor.
2. Scientific chiropractic is confined to practicing manipulative therapy for treating back pain
3. Manipulative therapy may relieve other other musculoskeletal conditions
4. Scientific chiropractors are multi-modal and use adjunctive therapies such as heat, ice, ultrasound, and exercise
5. Non-scientific chiropractors will make bogus claims that joint dysfunction/subluxation is the underlying cause of disease
6. Non scientific chiropractors will disparage proven health measures such as immunization and fluoridation.
7. Non scientific chiropractors will tend to use scare tactics and require patients to sign long term contracts, for 'subluxation correction'
8. Non scientific chiropractors disparage all medical treatments there are skeptical or the medical community

Neuraxis (talk) 19:57, June 6, 2014‎ (UTC)

Comments

Since QW considered reliable, this should be part of the main article. As well, because Barrett acknowledges a scientific chiropractic, this discussion is germane to this topic. This is also relevant to the discussions regarding ordering the sections here . Neuraxis (talk) 15:44, June 7, 2014‎ (UTC)

Okay so you want to use this ref to says what? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:54, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Those are two different subjects. I'm not sure which part of the QW source (last updated in 2000) you'd like to include, but he made it plain that "the number of chiropractors who belong to this group is small. CAMT's "orthopractic guidelines" describe a science-based approach to manipulative therapy."

He was unequivocally discouraging readers from visiting chiropractors, but allowed for the remote possibility that a few science-based ones existed in 2000, and only recommended them for those who insisted on going to a DC. Personally, I agree that there are many more of them now, but there is still far too much woo practiced, which is a shame for the sensible ones.

If you want to include something from the source, write your proposed wording here and let's see if it flies. It might. -- Brangifer (talk) 20:06, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I do find your constant insistence on the theme of a "scientific chiropractic" to be disquietingly close to the theme of the indef blocked User talk:CorticoSpinal. I suggest you study his history and see if you can avoid the same mistakes. You'll need to find different and better arguments if you're going to fare any better at improving these articles. -- Brangifer (talk) 20:17, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

No mention of reform chiropractic

While reviewing some of the diffs and comments from the various board postings (Arb clarification, ani) I did some google searches to evaluate some of the various statements being made by the parties involved.

I came across http://www.chiropractors.org/resources/chiropractic-specializations/what-reform-chiropractic-care.htm which says the three types of Chiropractic are straight, mix, and reform. We do not seem to mention reform anywhere. I am not claiming this site as a RS so we would need some sources, but is there a reason we do not mention reform Chiropractic in the article? It seems to be the least fringy of the types but also unfortunately the smallest group of practice too. Since it is the smallest, per WP:WEIGHT we shouldn't spend too much time on them, but it seems like they should at least be discussed? Gaijin42 (talk) 20:39, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

In this section (Chiropractic#Straights and mixers), we previously had three groups. IIRC, chiropractic editors managed to prevent and remove mention of reform chiropractors, which certainly made a lie of all their claims that the profession was reforming and becoming science-based.

We still have an article about them: National Association for Chiropractic Medicine. Reform efforts never gained any traction. They met constant opposition, other chiropractors would not associate with them, they and their families got threatened, and their ability to participate in chiropractic was seriously hampered. Membership was so risky that many of them kept their membership a secret. Their organization simply lost steam as reform seemed impossible, and many of them left the profession. Some are now MDs. You can read about their demise here: Talk:National_Association_for_Chiropractic_Medicine#Does_this_organization_still_exist.3F.

Obviously they should get short mention. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:12, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

National Association for Chiropractic Medicine no longer exists. The previous discussion resulted in the Objective Straight and the Reform chiropractors being deleted from this article. I don't see any recent RS that Reforms (or Objective Straights) exist. If we did include it I think we would need a review that describes it.

The text was moved to Chiropractic history#Straights versus mixers: Objective Straight chiropractors, who are an off-shoot of straights, only focus on the correction of chiropractic vertebral subluxations while traditional straights claim that chiropractic adjustments are a plausible treatment for a wide range of diseases. Reform chiropractors are an evidence-based off-shoot of mixers who rejected traditional Palmer philosophy and tend not to use alternative medicine methods.

A 2008 review stated that "Currently, there are two types of chiropractors: those religiously adhering to the gospel of its founding fathers and those open to change." QuackGuru (talk) 17:00, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Removal of sources

@Smk65536:, you reasoned your recent removal of sources by stating that:

the Meeker-Haldeman source links to the book "Chiropractic. History and Evolution of a New Profession", which is authored by a chiropractic, the neutrality of information here is questionable

Please correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying that a chiropractic author isn't a reliable source on chiropractic? How about an economist then, is an economist a reliable source on economics? Or a physician on medicine? Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 17:06, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

A long time chiropractor is definitely a reliable source on chiropractic, but the wikipedia summary is about chiropractic in a broader professional context by comparing alternative medicine to other science-based medicines. Therefore I'm doubting the neutrality of this. Smk65536 (talk) 17:49, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

The edit summary appears to be misleading. This text was from this source, Ann Intern Med. 2002 Feb 5;136(3):216-27.. It was also removed from the lede, no discussion. Neuraxis (talk) 17:52, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Considering that there was no discussion for the removal in the lede, neither any clear WP policy why it was removed but only personal speculation, I think the source is better to be restored. If there is a clear WP policy though, please let me know. Perhaps you could find a secondary source that is doubting the very same source you removed? Then it would be alright. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 20:19, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

I have restored that content. It's good enough. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:18, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

The policy is clearly WP:NPOV, the source is also a secondary source, the book is instead a primary source, the edit summary summarizes the edit well and attempts to be clear as possible. The secondary source also considers the book's view to be a point of view, but the wikipedia summary appears to state it as fact. Smk65536 (talk) 09:52, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Note for new users

You have to cite references for every sentence you plan to add to any article of wikipedia and avoid removing sentences with references. Please also read this - this article is written as per the policies of wikipedia which is that all complimentary and alternative medicine articles should be written, not from the perspective of its advocates/practitioners, but from the perspective of 'researchers and scientists'. If you want to complain about wikipedia's policies, please do what LeadSongDog mentioned which I'm linking to here (and tell me also about it, on my discussion/talk page).—Khabboos (talk) 08:53, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Nonsense. Please reread what I said, and stop wp:SPAMming this all over the place. LeadSongDog come howl! 14:45, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm only linking to what you said, LSD!—Khabboos (talk) 14:55, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

1. Bergmann, T.F., Perterson D.H (2011). Chiropractic Technique: Principles and Procedures. Elsevier. ISBN 9780323049696.
2. Cite error: The named reference Henderson 2012 632–642 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

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