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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Holybeef (talk | contribs) at 16:20, 27 July 2014 (→Other people proposed gravitational tug by another universe earlier than Mersini-Houghton). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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This article was nominated for deletion on 4 July 2014 (UTC). The result of the discussion was no consensus.

The following Misplaced Pages contributor may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view. Jeff Houghton (talk · contribs) / Mersini-Houghton, Laura This user has contributed to the article.

Proud to be...

...the first person to post an entry on Ms. Mersini-Houghton's talk page, sort of like being the first to post on Albert Einstein's talk page before he was Albert Einstein. What I wanted to say was that the lede should have more data about her important contributions, imnho. Will do some of that a little later if a more knowledgable science geek doesn't come around and do so. Aleister Wilson 12:43 April 17, 2012 (UTC)

foot note 4

I can't see where the said predictions are made in the referenced paper. Please could we get a more detailed reference or corrected reference? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.241.51.77 (talk) 20:37, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Mersini's alleged predictions

I've copied the following from the Multiverse article's Talk page, as it seeems relevant here too:

Can anybody check whether she even claimed in 2007 to have predicted the CMB Cold spot in 2006, let alone whether the 2006 paper contains such a prediction? I can't access the 2007 reference at all, and can only access the summary of the referenced 2006 paper which does indeed predicted possible voids, but it's unclear how well the detailed predictions match what was detected. In any case, due to my limited knowledge of Physics, I probably wouldn't be sure what detailed predictions had been made, even if I could access the full paper. But at least one anonymous contributor to the Mersini Talk page claims he sees no clear predictions in 'the referenced paper', though I don't even know if it's the same paper as the one currently referenced. There's also the problem that I seem to recall a 'great void' having being discovered long before 2006, admittedly by direct observation rather than via CMB data, but it would suggest that a vague prediction of possible voids might not be particularly impressive. This is similar to the problem with 'predictions' about Dark Flow, where a flow towards the so-called Great Attractor had been known about since the 1970s, as pointed out in the Dark Flow article. And I'm unable to even find where to link her third alleged prediction, nor to find any discussion of its significance. But I remember looking at the WMAP article yesterday, and if I understand right, the Mersini article has her 'predicting' in 2006 a fluctuation value below 1, when it was already 0.9 +/- 0.1 before 2006 on the WMAP data. I think it's important (due WP:NPOV) to balance claims that Multiverse theories are untestable, and so on. But I am a bit worried that I may be unwittingly spreading some questionable fantasies of some Mersini fan club (one of whom already implies on her Talk page that she's the next Einstein).Tlhslobus (talk) 14:45, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I have now had another look at the WMAP article. The fluctuation (sigma_8) picture seems just as unsatisfactory:

The Laura Mersini article says:
In the same year (2006) WMAP reached agreement with SDSS experiment, that the overall amplitude of fluctuation is less than 1. If these observational findings, predicted in the 2006 papers by Mersini-Houghton et al. are confirmed over the next few years, then they may offer the first evidence of a universe beyond our own.

The summary of her referenced December 2006 paper says:
We show that the effect of the string corrections is to suppress $\sigma_8$ and the CMB $TT$ spectrum at large angles, thereby bringing WMAP and SDSS data for $\sigma_8$ into agreement.

But the WMAP article gives the following sigma_8 data:

1year data (released Feb 2003) Fluctuation amplitude at 8h−1 Mpc (sigma_8) WMAP data only 0.9±0.1 — data from all sources 0.84±0.04

3 year data (released Mar 2006) Fluctuation amplitude at 8h−1 Mpc (sigma_8) WMAP data only 0.761+0.049 −0.048 — data from all sources not given

5 year data (released Feb 2008) Fluctuation amplitude at 8h−1 Mpc (sigma_8) WMAP data only 0.796±0.036 — data from all sources 0.812±0.026

7 year data (released Feb 2010) Fluctuation amplitude at 8h−1 Mpc (sigma_8) WMAP data only 0.801±0.030 — data from all sources 0.809±0.024

9 year data (released Dec 2012) Density fluctuations at 8h−1 Mpc (sigma_8) WMAP data only 0.821±0.023 — data from all sources 0.820+0.013 −0.014

Far from the Mersini article's assertion that WMAP reached agreement with SDSS in 2006 that fluctuation was less than 1, the fluctuation was seemingly always less than 1 (or just possibly equal to 1 at the upper end of the 2003 range of possible WMAP-data-only values), so this was hardly something 'predicted' by Mersini et al.in 2006 as claimed in the article. But the WMAP value dropped dramatically in March 2006, suggesting that WMAP and SDSS no longer agreed (though this is not actually stated), and that in December 2006 Mersini et al are offering an explanation for why they are different and how they can be brought back into agreement. But any such disagreement doesn't persist, as the 2008 to 2012 data shows. So quite likely the data shows that Mersini et al are wrong. Quite likely this means that their theory was a testable and falsifiable theory which has been tested and falsified - which, if correct, would actually be a rather important answer to the criticism that Multiverse theories are unscientific because they make no falsifiable predictions. And a similar conclusion may also be available from some of her other predictions. But I don't know enough to say whether any such conclusion is actually warranted. Does anybody else know enough to say so? Tlhslobus (talk) 16:39, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Structural POV error

Section Research, paragraph two claims:

Soon after the discovery of the landscape,

sounds like some natural phenomenon was discovered. Instead, what was discovered was that one in string theory can find 10 levels of false vacua. From my sceptical POV, this means that what was discovered, was that the string theory lost one other prediction value, rather than that it described a multitude of universes. The multiverse hypothesis used to detect the existence of foreign universes? Even though the article actually describes testable theories that have some prediction values, a reader may get the impression that the text provides some kind of circular reasoning covered up behind some reification fallacy. Rursus dixit. (bork!) 12:48, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

This article needs serious work

It seems to me that the tone of the article is problematic. The description of her areas of interest also seems poorly organised.

Also, why is her education written in bullet form when most other wikipedia articles do it in standard prose? (unsigned by User:24.44.0.54.

COI, sources

Agree with sentiment of last few comments here - this article needs a WP:NPOV / WP:OR / WP:SYN / WP:V check, and rebasing on secondary sources. I tagged as such. Widefox; talk 09:24, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Move for article deletion

This article is irrelevant. Not every educator can get their article on Misplaced Pages, see Misplaced Pages:Notability (academics). This individual doesn't meet the notability criteria (associate professor instead of distinguished/full professor; no noted awards and so on). The contents such as claims of prediction lack any credibility. Also, appearance in an episode of some leisure popular sci TV series is not notable regardless if the episode was nominated for an award. Besides, the article has been suffering from numerous problems for too long to be ignored any further; the tags make it look like a Christmas tree. The bragging is prevalent, namely the way "achievements" are blown out of proportion w/o reliable references to support the claimed "prediction genius" of this individual, and so on. Their main contribution seems to be co-authorship in developing of a sci theory, which is not notable either. It all points to turbo POV, bordering on delusional even. So I move for deletion. You can discuss here. Holybeef (talk) 03:44, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Quotes within the citations

These are to make it easy for others to check the sources; if the article is kept, I will trim these quotes substantially as per rules to safeguard copyrights.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 00:27, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Material from previous incarnation of article

Here is material from a previous version of the article, kept here in case sources can be found, and also to help future contributors to this article, since it is probably correct even though it is written at a level probably too academic for Misplaced Pages ...--Tomwsulcer (talk) 11:51, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Soon after the discovery of the landscape, Mersini-Houghton proposed a theory in 2004–2005 for the birth of the universe from the landscape multiverse. The main idea is based on placing the wavefunction of the universe on the landscape in order to calculate the most probable wavefunction of the universe. This theory takes into account the out of equilibrium dynamics in the initial states and it includes decoherence among the various wavefunctions. The derived probability distribution results in states of high energy inflation being the most probable initial condition to start a universe. The selection mechanism arises from the out of equilibrium evolution of gravitational versus matter degrees of freedom, as follows: gravity is a "negative heat capacity system" (vacuum energy tends to equilibrium by expanding the initial space to infinity), while matter degrees of freedom are in the class of "positive heat capacity" systems (that tend to equilibrium by collapsing the system to a point). Any realistic cosmology contains both contributions massive fluctuations, and, vacuum energy. Therefore, the evolution of the opposing tendencies of the degrees of freedom in the initial states drives the state out of equilibrium and selects only high energy initial states as "survivor" universes from the back reaction of massive fluctuations since only high energy states can grow. Initial states that contain large vacuum energies give rise to expanding physical universes. Low energy initial states cannot survive the back reaction of massive fluctuations, cannot grow and thus result in "terminal" universes.

In 2006 in two papers named Cosmological Avatars of the Landscape, and, Mersini-Houghton predicted that the CMB cold spot, which was later observed by WMAP and Planck, was "the unmistakable imprint of another universe beyond the edge of our own",. Planck data has confirmed that the Cold Spot is an underdense region in the southern hemisphere, of about 200 Mpc and z~1, in perfect agreement with what she and her collaborators had predicted in their 'Cosmological Avatars of the Landscape' papers 'I: Bracketing the SUSY Breaking Scale', and 'II: CMB and LSS Signatures' published in 2006.

In November 2008, a NASA team led by Alexander Kashlinsky observed the dark flow of galaxy clusters in the universe at exactly the velocity and alignment predicted by her earlier in the 'Cosmological Avatars of the Landscape I, II' papers in 2006.

In the same year (2006) WMAP reached agreement with SDSS experiment, that the overall amplitude of fluctuation is less than 1. If these observational findings, predicted in the 2006 papers by Mersini-Houghton et al. are confirmed over the next few years, then they may offer the first evidence of a universe beyond our own. Such confirmation would tie the standard model of cosmology into a more coherent picture where our universe is not at the center of the world, but part of it.. These predictions were just confirmed by Planck data released in March 2013.

After the observational confirmation of the five predictions (CMB cold spot, power suppression at low l's, alignment of quadrupole with octupole, dark flow, and Sigma8~0.8) her work continues to attract international media attention, GCHEP/UNC, in the New Scientist, Bild der Wissenschaft, Scientific American, and Discover magazine.

A team of astrophysicists reported between November 2008 and February 2009 that they had found evidence of the northern hemisphere CMB cold spot in analysis of WMAP data. However, apart from the southern CMB cold spot, the varied statistical methods in general fail to confirm each other regarding a northern CMB cold spot. Since Mersini's Theory on the Origins of the Universe from the Landscape Multiverse, several other possible causes have been suggested for the CMB cold spot. The main issue with the alternative explanations offered since Mersini's theory is that they can not produce an explanation for all observed anomalies having the same origin. Precision measurements in cosmology therefore highly constrain these phenomenological models.

Dark flow remains controversial. Its existence and velocity are "likely to stay unsettled until" the new accurate cosmic microwave background radiation data by the European Space Agency's Planck satellite are available in 2013.

The Planck results for anomalies observed in the CMB were published in March 2013 The anomalies discovered and confirmed by Planck in the CMB are: 1. Power suppression at large distances (low I's); 2. Cold Spot; 3. Alignment of Quadrupole and Octupole in the CMB leading to a Preferred Direction; and, 4. The Overall Amplitude of Sigma_8. All of these anomalies were derived in the 2006 paper: "Why the Universe Started from a Low Entropy State", well before (and independent of) any experimental detections.

Before her work on the Theory of the Origins of the Universe from the Landscape Multiverse, she investigating the problem of dark energy and developed a program with her collaborator M.Bastero-Gil, where dark energy is produced by short distance (transplanckian) modes. With other collaborators she analyzed wMAP data for the equation of state of dark energy and showed that it can be of a phantom form.

I indented your discussion under the deletion nomination section; please don't try to obfuscate the nomination by creating seemingly divorced sections after the deletion nomination section. In the same sense, I reversed your attempt to revamp the article per edit comments, main objections: academic notability is not established by proposing a theory; there are tens of thousands of theories but not each proponent of a theory gets own Misplaced Pages article. For example, the refs you offer to substantiate your daring claim that she's a "chief proponent" do not say this; instead, one ref does say that she is "one proponent". And so on. Please either discuss this seriously or don't discuss at all. Holybeef (talk) 12:51, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Reverting substantial improvements during a deletion discussion can lead to a block.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 18:22, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder. Just to let you know that your plea to closing admin on deletion page is redundant as they always do what you insist they do. Note also I didn't state half of the reasons why I reverted your "edit": for instance, one of your May, 2014, refs said she was the first one who had claimed there are no black holes, however Stephen Hawking said that back in January, 2014. So just to make it clear, not only that you tried to edit wording (though the problem is lack of academic notability), but you also used bogus references. Then you insisted she's a notable scientist of Brian Greene caliber, which is nonsense (she's not even a full professor), and so on. Please stop trying to save an article which has had so many problems for years by a last-minute rephrasing and using bogus refs without adding anything of substance to prove actual academic notability. Quantity doesn't make up for quality. Holybeef (talk) 18:44, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

The references (below) you just added to your discourse are mostly primary. Note however that, when establishing whether someone is or isn't notable, Misplaced Pages uses secondary sources only. On the other hand, reliable secondary sources do report on this person's failures, like when a 175-people collaboration recently found no evidence of dark flow that this person talks about, and even explicitly stated so: "There is no detection of bulk flow" Holybeef (talk) 02:22, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Move for article deletion relisting

Please note that this article is under relist revision ("to be re-listed") for deletion discussion. Closing seemed premature given that the article had numerous issues as seen by countless tags for years. This means numerous editors had seen this article as problematic to say the least. Not enough time has passed for even a fraction of those editors to get familiar with the ongoing delete nomination. Note also that the article has a rather nervous proponent of keeping the article, who immediately after the delete nomination attempted to forge a major overhaul without any discussion whatsoever. He repeated this suspicious deed immediately after the closing too. His edit is biased at best since it tries to portray the person the article is about as notable despite the fact that this person does not meet any academic notability criteria, as noted by several editors during delete discussion. If you read his proposed intro paragraph you'll see that the person's claimed notability is in "proposing a controversial theory" which however is nonsense: there are thousands of theories and all are controversial until proven correct. Do not edit the article until the revision is completed. Thanks. Holybeef (talk) 03:56, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Nonsense. Clearly user Holybeef has a POV-pushing agenda of removing any article on Laura Mersini-Houghton. When the article was revamped to a much improved version with numerous references, Holybeef reverted it here and again here, back to the same problematic poorly referenced version that Holybeef wanted to delete. Further, then Holybeef writes above that s/he doesn't want anybody else to edit the problematic version while he tries to get the closure decision reversed by writing Do not edit the article until the revision is completed. Holybeef refuses to accept the community's decision not to delete this article and is essentially committing WP:VANDALISM.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 11:19, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

• Note: Delete nomination discussion was closed with No Consensus, not because a community's decision was reached as user Tomwsulcer misinterprets. The rest of his insinuations are addressed above in the relisting reasons. Holybeef (talk) 14:15, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

-Old discussion refs: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Holybeef (talk • contribs) 03:57, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Other people proposed gravitational tug by another universe earlier than Mersini-Houghton

When I read this article I remembered reading similar claim a few years back. After recovering that claim from my disc I compared dates, and bingo. Just as I suspected, it turns out that Mersini-Houghton was not first one who proposed that another universe might be exerting gravitational tug on our universe. References in the article point that she made her claim in 2007, but I found out about a scientist who claimed the same thing back in 2006. So I added the below sentence but some editor is having problems I don't know why. I believe that credit must be given where credit's due! So here is my addition for all that's worth:

However, some of the above references incorrectly credit Mersini-Houghton as the first who proposed such tug might be at work. For instance Mensur Omerbashich has proposed it earlier: "In case of our Universe, it is to it neighboring (about it orbiting) Universe that largely masks the tidal influences of the rest of the Hyperverse onto our Universe".

I note that, unlike what this editor said, arxiv is not considered primary source in a negative sense. Besides, WP:PRIMARY says primary sources can be used, it's just that an article shouldn't be based entirely on them. Only highly regarded scientists can publish on arxiv and they must be endorsed by their peers, so that by now Misplaced Pages has more than 15000 references to arxiv papers. So my addition passes all tests I can think of. But I'm sure more references can be found about other people proposing this earlier as well. So this article has it incorrectly, again she was not the first one contrary to what the introductory few references incorrectly suggest. 87.244.231.29 (talk) 02:30, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Let me assume that both of the IP editor comments, above, have no relation to Holybeef despite the remarkable similarity; Holybeef, not long ago, put the article up for deletion, then after I improved it, reverted the article back to the one that Holybeef wanted to delete. So my sense is Holybeef is a POV-pusher with an agenda of discrediting Laura Mersini-Houghton. Now, the recent IP additions, in which "references" are added on the spurious basis that there are mistakes in previous references -- these additions bear remarkable similarity to the approach of Holybeef, by making the same kind of arguments -- (Note: administrators can do sockpuppet investigations) -- have really nothing to do with the subject of the article, which is Laura Mersini-Houghton. The subject of the article is NOT Mersini-Houghton's theories, not whether they're right or not, NOT about scientific debates about the validity of her theories. These issues are not the province of Misplaced Pages because this encyclopedia is not a place for scientific debate; clearly Misplaced Pages is not qualified for this. Using primary sources like arxiv which do not even mention Laura Mersini-Houghton's name, is clearly a violation of neutrality. The Misplaced Pages article, in its present incarnation, does not state the LMH was the first to propose the multiverse theory, but it only says that she is a proponent of it, which is the case, backed by reliable secondary sources. Keep scientific battling OUT of Misplaced Pages. That belongs in journals, lecture halls, laboratories.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 04:35, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for mentioning me, I almost forgot about you and this preposterous article. I won't comment on your insinuations since they seem to be your style of communication. I can see that you overhauled the article. It's good that you made it brief, in accordance with this individual's notability. It would be better if it was deleted altogether since that would most faithfully convey her (lack of) notability, but this will do for now. Keep up the good work! Holybeef (talk) 16:20, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I don't know who is Holybeef. If subject is "only her" then don't write about science, write about size of her shoes. But your reference from December 3, 2007 The Great Nothing may be something… saying "...Mersini-Houghton has put forward a theory that has stunned the wider community...", so for neutrality I put other references showing she is not first so nobody should be stunned. And I already said to you that there is more than 15000 arxiv references on Misplaced Pages. 95.103.164.141 (talk) 12:22, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Don't sweat it over his insinuations. You should concentrate on demonstrating this lady's obvious lack of notability. The references you've found are a good first step. Thanks for contributing in the right direction, and keep up the good work! Holybeef (talk) 16:20, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Simple way to handle this is simply to remove the "stunned" claim from within the citation, which I've done; the current Misplaced Pages article does not (and should not) go into issues whether LMH was the first with this theory -- that is essentially irrelevant unless it can be backed up with reliable secondary sources. While arxiv sources have been used in Misplaced Pages, the ones added to this article were primary sources which did not mention LMH's name, so including them here, to make a point, is original research. About primary sources, here is the guideline:--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:05, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Unless restricted by another policy, reliable primary sources may be used in Misplaced Pages; but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Misplaced Pages to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge.

— Misplaced Pages guideline

That is my problem with the previous additions, that the arxiv primary sources are being misused in a debate about the truthfulness of a claim about science, when a secondary source is needed for that, and that Misplaced Pages should not get entangled in debates between primary sources.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:05, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Primary sources are fine, especially arxive ones as you were just told that 15000+ refs on Misplaced Pages come from arxiv. First remove those 15k+ and then you can remove this one or call it POV. Holybeef (talk) 16:20, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

1. ^ arxiv:hep-th/0611223
2. ^ arxiv:hep-th/0612142
3. Marcus Chown, The void: Imprint of another universe?, New Scientist, 2007-11-24
4. A. Kashlinsky, F. Atrio-Barandela, D. Kocevski, and H. Ebeling, A measurement of large-scale peculiar velocities of clusters of galaxies: results and cosmological implications, ApJ 686 L49, doi:10.1086/592947, arXiv:0809.3734,(same paper at nasa.gov)
5. arXiv:0810.5388
6. Cosmological Avatars of the Landscape I, II; Phys. Rev. D, 77, doi:10.1103/PhysRevD.77.063510, doi:10.1103/PhysRevD.77.063511; arxiv:hep-th/0611223, arxiv:hep-th/0612142
7. ^
8. GCHEP
9. arXiv:0811.2732v3/astro-ph
10. Mon. Not. R. Astron. Soc. 000, 1{13 (2009) Printed 20 May 2009 Non-Gaussian Signatures in the five-year WMAP data as identified with isotropic scaling indices G. Rossmanith1?, C. Rath1, A. J. Banday2;3 and G. Morfill1
11. Mann, Adam (2011-12-16). "Supernova research challenges cosmic "dark flow" mystery". Arstechnica.com. Retrieved 2012-11-11.
13. Omerbashich, M. (2006) Springtide-induced magnification of Earth mantle resonance causes tectonics and conceals universality of physics at all scales, arxiv.org. Published: 20 August, 2006.
14. Is Our Universe Tidally Engaged With Another Universe? Alan Gray, Newsblaze. Published: 22 December, 2012.

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