Misplaced Pages

The one thing that is doing my nut in is how you keep trying to convince us to dismiss your error rate against your contributions. "I know that 10,000 stubs sounds like a large number but it is nothing compared to my good contributions" This one sentence makes me want to pick up my keyboard and throw it through a window. Do you have any idea of the amount of time that was spent in that last case? As I'm pretty good at reading simplified Chinese, I decided to check through 20 and found all of them to have wrong references. I decided to correct 5 of them to get a gauge of the effort required. Each of those stubs required a minimum 40mins to 1. find the correct page to reference, 2. correct the reference in the stub, 3. read through, 4. translate into English, 5. edit to avoid violating copyright, 6. double check for errors. That's 200min, over three hours spent fixing your mess and that was only 5 stubs. You seem to have zero understanding and appreciation of the efforts spent. Blackmane (talk) 13:49, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

And as before, he seems fully intent on making other editors clean up behind him. Oreo Priest 16:48, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't think I've ever seen someone this clueless. An ANI open about their incorrect use of a script and what does he do? Continue using the script while the discussion is still open. That's basically flipping a birdy at everyone who has posted here, isn't it. I'm almost tempted to propose a block for the duration of this discussion. Blackmane (talk) 21:39, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Careful. There's very stiff competition along those lines. EEng (talk) 22:45, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

• This has been open 5 days now, and is probably ripe for closure. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:25, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree; the way I see things is that I will either be revoked from using the script, be blocked, or left alone. The choice isn't mine to make, but if it were I would leave things be as I have and will not edit any more non UK and Canadian articles using the script. With the script creator's permission I can edit the script for myself to optimise it (I've looked through the source, it isn't difficult). There was little damage done and it was quick to be fixed, I'm glad things didn't get worse for all of us. ☠ Jaguar ☠ 18:30, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

The problem is, you keep saying it was fixed, while others are saying it is not. Part of this proposal says you MUST fix all of them. Keep that in mind. If you were wise, you would have already fixed them all, perhaps saving a vote or two. If you are smart, you would fix them now without the waffling. It wouldn't bother me if the closer asked Oreo Priest to supervise that portion of the sanction by making a list that others can check. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 17:37, 24 July 2014 (

Conclusion

I have made a table down below showing all of my ENGVAR contributions in total. This shows what are non-UK or non-Canadian (I've put this as "non-UK" to clear confusion), UK related and ambiguous. Of all the non-UK ones you will see which ones I have reverted and for the acceptable ones which ones are remaining the same. I think we're all getting tired of this; people keep saying that I have not reverted all of my mistakes. Well these below show nearly all the ones of which have been corrected. I have looked through my contributions about five times today, every non-UK article has been reverted - it's true! ☠ Jaguar ☠ 18:05, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

I keep on hearing things like "fix your mess" and "clean up your mistakes" for the past two years. So let's take a real look at what this script does, shall we? This is a revision difference for the Cayman Islands which is one of many I have used with the script. Click on the link and you will find that the script has changed a monstrous and devastating 27 bytes worth of data! It changed the words "specialized, in order to, cooperate" and a hyphen. The script has successfully changed US English to UK English according to ENGVAR. So let's delete the script, block Jaguar and keep on at him because the mistakes (which have been reverted) are unacceptable. Everyone makes mistakes, we're only human. I've read through ENGVAR, I understand fully now, I have kept well clear from non-UK articles and will delete the script for my personal use if need be. ☠ Jaguar ☠ 18:16, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

You just NOW reverted Computer from your change. Add that to all the other articles where you didn't revert until after those articles were explicitly pointed out to you. On top of that, you are still justifying converting the "ambiguous" articles from American to British. If it is ambiguous to begin with, then you shouldn't be convert from one variation of English to another. You have repeatedly demonstrated a case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT from when the problems were first pointed out to you to now. In fact, you still keep claiming there was no problem to begin with despite every other editor that has commented on the issue stating the exact opposite. This shows that you have absolutely no business using a tool like a script to do mass changes of this type because who you've shown a complete lack of competency to both recognize and correct your mistakes. —Farix (t | c) 19:32, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

P.S. If these edits are so trivial—as you've repeatedly claimed—that you don't understand why everyone is making a big deal about them, why are you even changing from American English to British English in the first place? —Farix (t | c) 20:00, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

I think Farix has phrased it quite well, especially as regards WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Oreo Priest 19:51, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

I stand by my original comment that changing the ENGVAR tag in any article should be done manually, to give the editor a chance to consider the implications for that particular article, and should not be changed by a script for multiple articles. I thank Jaguar for reverting the improper changes, but the fact that he had to be nagged to revert the changes indicates that he shouldn't use a script to do them. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:35, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

User:Jaguar has not fixed the Spain article as he alleges above. His only two recent edits there were his original 'engvar' edit and then a revert of another editor to his own preferred version with an incorrect edit summary.

He has still not undone his changes to the China or Egypt articles, in spite of them being brought up specifically in a list by Farix above and his prior claims to have fixed the items on that prior list.

Where he has actually reverted his changes, he has done so without even making a token attempt at preserving others' edits that were made subsequent to his changes, see the WP:POINTy edit summary, "Restoring American spelling and broken refs. " where he reverted both his changes and subsequent fixes to other parts of the article.

His pledge to "not edit any more non UK and Canadian articles using the script." was broken 14 minutes later with this edit to an article about a sovereign country.--Noren (talk) 20:09, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Ugh. I should have known better than to believe Jaguar when he said he'd fixed the articles that he claimed. Now my comment below seems naively optimistic. Oreo Priest 21:25, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh boy. We editors can only assume so much good faith, however, that "non-revert" on Spain is pushing that assumption extremely hard. —Farix (t | c) 21:43, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

I can't stand this any more. People are too quick to judge and too quick to criticise as everyone here demonstrates. I've just looked through Spain and found that I have accidentally reverted my ENGVAR edit back to my own revision. Honest to god it was a complete accident, I was meant to revert it to the revision before mine (which I have done to all the rest) so why would anyone think I would need to keep Spain in British English? How does that make sense? Now it's the domino effect - someone accuses me of being dishonest for lying when it was a accident on which I did not know! Someone could have kindly pointed out to me that I made a mistake on Spain, but instead I have to be labelled as a dishonest liar, even going as far to convince Mark Miller who had the right idea of opposing the proposal, but thanks to the manipulation people have provided them in this ANI discussion everyone has turned against me, even when I'm trying to do the right thing. "It seems it didn't take long for the editor to prove they weren't being completely honest with us. This seems to suggest this was a purposeful attempt to disrupt" - just look at what people here have made someone think when it's NOT TRUE.

This has gone on far enough, it's making me feel mentally deprived! This sort of thing doesn't help my insomnia and severe depression. This ANI discussion has turned from being a discussion about a few mistakes concerning a script to a personal witch hunt against me. Everyone has themselves to blame to falsely accusing me of being (quote) "dishonest, liar, Anthony Weiner, Prince Harry, fool, tiresome, clueless and my favourite, imperialist". Just look at what you've all done at me. Block me then, delete the script because if this has to go on any longer I'm going to have a mental breakdown. Mock me, take out some quotes out of this paragraph. Go right ahead. ☠ Jaguar ☠ 18:04, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

WP:NOTTHERAPYCombatWombat42 (talk) 18:31, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Jaguar, it isn't about you, it's about your behaviour: a limited part of it, at that. It isn't even about your intent, it's about your use of the script. You continued to use it. You never even mentioned World War I above - I must be going blind, I didn't see you listed World War I the kind of article that indicates why ENGVAR is a prickly issue, I might add - despite my having where I have twice mentioned here that you let the script change someone's name. So here's the third mention. You need to stop using the script. That's it. You could have simply voluntarily stopped using it, and shown us that you realised you had inadvertently been careless. You didn't, so you need to be told to stop using it. That's all this is. Stop using the script. Make the changes manually if you feel so ineluctably called to work in this contentious area. The milk's spilt now - several editors have been over your edits, checking them. At Spain and Russia, editors have found your fixes undid others' work - but that work has now been put back. As others said earlier, the faster the script changes were reverted, the lower the likelihood of its being complicated - but we're past that point now, so what's left is for you to stop using the script, plain and simple, and then the reason for this review of your edits will be removed and so, presumably, will this section. Yngvadottir (talk) 18:44, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Jaguar, we have given you ample rope and assumed tons of good faith, but over time you've showed us that you are not acting in good faith. Calling you dishonest because you've been behaving dishonestly is completely legitimate. You continually insisted that you've addressed everything, while you have left many things unaddressed. Every time I've pointed this out, you have made no attempt to address the concern or solve the problem. At time of writing, you still haven't addressed the articles I pointed out below.

You have shown remarkable resistance to understanding the essentials of WP:ENGVAR. It's not a byte count, it's not 'I think it seems right', it's not 'I've changed it now so there's no point changing it back'. It's keeping an article at its original variant, and changes occur only when there are both strong national ties and a consensus.

You have many times complained that we're out to get you, and thrown up your hands as if it's some foregone conclusion. This despite the fact that we outlined very specific courses of action to remedy the situation, which you chose to ignore or partially ignore. I don't see why you writhe, squirm, complain and dissimulate when you could simply have taken the time you spent complaining to actually fix the mistakes you made. Take some ownership for your actions instead of playing the victim. Oreo Priest 20:35, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

@Jaguar:, you have no one to blame but yourself. Editors have asked you repeatedly to undo your actions because they where disruptive, yet you stubbornly refused to do so. Getting you to revert any one article is/was like pulling teeth. An editor is responsible for their own edits, no one else. But to this date, you refuse to take responsibility for your edits. It is that stubbornness and refusal to fix your mistakes even after they were pointed out to you repeatedly that caused editors like Mark Miller to change their minds about you.

And let me end with this final note on a much broader scale. There is no script to convert British English to American. The reason for that is not because no one thought of creating such a script, but because such a script is considered a bad idea that will encourage disruptive editing. So we don't need a script to convert American English to British? —Farix (t | c) 10:48, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Obviously what matters is the content, not the byte count. Nobody's suggesting you be blocked either, just that you not be allowed use of a script you've proven you can't (or at least didn't) use responsibly. Any "keeping at" you would be because you still haven't finished, nor have you understood why what you did causes a problem as evidenced by the 'byte count' comment.

I appreciate the list. I still don't see why you insist that you've made a complete list when you clearly haven't. Here are some of the more glaring omissions:

1. Jumping Flash!
2. Minecraft
3. YouTube
4. China
5. Norway
6. Antigua and Barbuda
7. The Bahamas

Also, you really need to understand that sovereign countries, or parts of them, that were once British don't automatically have British English. Please revert those, and obtain a consensus before changing them back. Likewise for the cases you've labelled 'ambiguous'. If you could do that, as well as address the list I've made, then that would basically be the problem solved. Provided, that is, that you don't make unilateral changes in the future and don't use the script. Oreo Priest 19:45, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

• Jaguar, the community's patience is wearing thin. You have been obtuse and in some things your actions have looked downright dishonest. You are bordering on needing a block instead of a topic ban. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 20:47, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Proposal to Close

I think that at this point Jaguar, has willfully disengaged, won't get the point, or both. The consensous seems clear that (s)he

"... be banned from using any automated script or tool relating to ENGVAR, broadly interpreted, through Dec. 31, 2014.
Manual ENGVAR edits would not be affected. Jaguar must also participate in cleaning up the damage done to the satisfaction
of the community. Violations of this ban would be dealt with using escalating blocks."

At this point I think we should close and implement the consensous of the community. --Adam in MO Talk 04:18, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I will take the initiative to ensure he complies; this will be on his talk page if anyone else cares to participate. I will report back if he doesn't comply. Oreo Priest 07:36, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Obviously conflicted edits to A2 milk

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

BlackCab (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

BC has declared (in a way) a conflict of interest with regard to, "extensive work I carried out on the A2 milk article". BC has not declared who paid the "fee" in question but has suggested that as their contract or agreement didn't specify "promotion" in particular, they are exempt from the provisions of WP:NOPAY. Nonetheless, the original "extensive work" constitutes this major rewrite of the article in line with this draft.

That edit did a number of things -

• It increased the prominence of "fringe" claims (including the suggestion that A2 milk might diminish the symptoms of autism)
• It introduced (twice) a story about the mainstream milk industry trying to "discredit" A2 products
• It introduced a story about a rouge operator fined for making dishonest medical claims, described by the edit as "a small Queensland start-up" but by news media as "one of A2 Corporation Ltd's major licensees in Australia"
• It inferred scientific and medical concerns with regard to A2's competitors (the makers of regular A1 milk) framing each claim as being backed by strong science thus forcing "denials" from milk producers, framing "adverse effects" as being "disputed by some scientists" rather than those adverse effects being assertions from a handful of fringe scientists (as they are).
• It listed a number of studies on (non-human) animals with regard to a particular element of non-A2 milk, inferring danger to humans if extrapolated (without acknowledging that no such human trials had been conducted).
• It introduced a suggestion (in Misplaced Pages's voice) that regular milk should be compared to opioids or narcotics by comparison to A2 Milk.

...and made a significant number of other changes. The edit was reverted but then reinstated by BC after they "reinforced" their position on the article talk page. This has been a fairly consistent MO since - BC posts what he/she believes is a strong argument against a particular criticism on the talk page and then shortly thereafter reinstates a section citing no immediate argument with their claim.

Whatever the arrangement with BC's employer, BC's original edit, edits since and draft article are all obviously designed to promote A2 Milk in general and the a2 Corporation in particular. BC should absolutely be held to the provisions of WP:NOPAY at a minimum and be confined to editing the talk page with {{Request edit}} templates. St★lwart 04:16, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Response: I am a consumer of A2 milk, which is now a leading milk brand in Australia, and am interested in the subject of why it is different to normal supermarket milk. The article on A2 milk on Misplaced Pages was a stub and flagged for poor grammar, poor construction and poor sourcing. Considering (a) the market share it has in Australia and its entry to the UK and US markets, and (b) the conflicting views among scientists on its potential health benefits compared with normal milk and (c) the range of news stories and serious television coverage it has received in New Zealand and Australia, I considered I could, with extensive research, greatly improve the article.

I approached it the same way I approached other articles I have completely rewritten and expanded -- among them East West Link, Melbourne, Joh Bjelke-Petersen, Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses in Nazi Germany, Joseph Franklin Rutherford and Watch Tower Society presidency dispute (1917). The exception in this case, knowing it would be a huge task, was to arrange for a fee for my work. I have not set out to promote A2 milk; my intention was and is to present more information about it, its history and the scientific disagreement -- issues that have also spawned a book, Devil in the Milk by a NZ agricultural professor, and widespread media coverage of the milk and a number of questionable tactics by rivals who have lost market share. I posted a disclosure notice on my user page before replacing the shitty stub with my much bigger version..

A couple of users objected to my use of Devil in the Milk and some primary sources (scientific papers) in the science section and immediately began a campaign of denigration and canvassing, labelling the article and its sourcing as "fringe", "weird", and the lie that it was "based on anecdotes and a few primary sources".. (At that stage it contained more than 40 citations to news reports). I fully accept that I was not familiar with WP:RSMED or its requirements and was content to have that section removed while I reworked it with better sourcing. User:WhatamIdoing also intervened to point out that a couple of editors were misusing BRD: instead of deleting sections or flagging sections for better sources, they simply reverted the whole article. I also agreed with the removal of a section on digestive benefits of A2 milk, agreeing that anecdotal claims were unacceptable.

Throughout the process I have endeavoured to be co-operative and collaborative. However I have encountered rising levels of antagonism towards me and my edits, particularly once it became more widely known that I had accepted a fee. This is all laid bare on the talk page, culminating in a personal attack by User:Stalwart111 which blatantly breaches WP:AGF. That user has also demanded that I cease editing the article and offer suggestions on the talk page.

I have zero confidence in this system working because of the collection of hostile editors who are acting as gatekeepers.

On 16 July Stalwart111 removed a paragraph from the "background" section, then on the talk page requested "incredibly strong MEDRS sourcing". Since then I have provided a string of high-quality sources to satisfy his request and finally a grab-bag of statements from a range of websites by Googling a couple of terms to demonstrate that the fact I added as background is widely accepted science. When there was initially no response after I listed those quality sources, I reinstated the paragraph; he promptly reverted it again claiming that "consensus among others is contrary to your opinion". That was a lie: there had been discussion up to that point, either agreeing or disagreeing with the list of sources I had provided. Still no one has discussed what is a plain statement of scientific fact -- a fact completely supported by the sources I provided and typed out as quotes.

On 19 July User:Roxy the dog altered the wording in the article's lead section from "There is no consensus that A2 milk has benefits over "A1" milk" to "There is no scientific evidence that A2 milk has benefits over normal milk". This is a very clear case of cherry picking, and provocation: the statement, although correctly sourced to the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA), is not an accurate and balanced statement for an encyclopedia. I started a new thread, pointing out that the EFSA review was just one of four reviews I'm aware of: two others said no such thing and referred to scientific evidence they found "intriguing" and worth further study.

In short, a number of editors on the A2 page have now become obstructive and are, I suspect, editing the article -- and blocking my edits of the article -- in order to denigrate A2 milk as a form of pushback against my edits. In the current version of the article I see nothing that markets or promotes A2 milk, or makes false claims, or presents fringe science. This is what others claim is there and as a result are questioning my motives. I say again: I am now NOT promoting A2 milk. I have read WP:NOPAY carefully and I am convinced I am not bound by its requirement to edit the article through the talk page using them as mediators. I have been working on Misplaced Pages for many years, have created, expanded and improved many articles. This one, to me, is no different. It was shitty, and I can improve it. And I have not finished: I am still reworking an extensive section dealing with the conflicting science findings and the series of reviews of published evidence. BlackCab (TALK) 05:22, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

That's not a personal attack - that's an assessment of your suggestion that while you've accepted a fee and have made promotional edits, you're not subject to guidelines related to accepting a fee and making promotional edits. St★lwart 05:43, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

So help me here: what, in the existing article (the result of early collaboration and compromise), is promotional? Serious question. BlackCab (TALK) 05:52, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Facepalm. Not much - that's the point. We successfully resisted your efforts to turn the article into a glowing endorsement of the subject and a stinging rebuke of its competitors. But those efforts (and your dissertation above) demonstrate that you are incapable of approaching this subject in a neutral manner. To be honest, I'd have concerns with your edits even if you weren't being paid to make them - your agenda seems pretty straightforward, with or without a pay-cheque at the end. St★lwart 06:46, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

If "we" had our "our" way the article would still be the shitty stub, which is what "we" (User:Bhny and User:Roxy the dog) reverted it to in a tag-team manoeuvre, with a sham appeal to BRD. (Neither editor was willing to engage in meaningful discussion: Bhny immediately started his surreptitious canvassing campaign with misleading claims at two noticeboards; Roxy's contributions have been laced with sneering sarcasm.). It was only the intervention of User:WhatamIdoing—who actually read my edit and reinstated material that was clearly unobjectional —that took the article to what it is now. I accepted this. I accepted the removal of the "Digestive benefits" section. I accepted that the science section needed to be reworked. I made all this clear on the talk page. From that point more -- quite innocuous -- material was deleted; my subsequent attempts to discuss this and reinstate (a) a one-paragraph statement of scientific fact and (b) the fact that there is no consensus over the benefits of A2 milk have been met with obstruction, derision and abuse. I am doing all I can to collaborate. And Stalwart111's final little insult ("I'd have concerns with your edits even if you weren't being paid to make them) is yet another unwarranted attack on my good faith. Just examine my record. BlackCab (TALK) 07:53, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Through following further links from WP:PAID, I have located a June 16, 2014 update to the Wikimedia terms of use pertaining—for the first time—to paid editing. I have therefore updated the disclosure notice on my user page. BlackCab (TALK) 08:35, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

No, if "we" had "our" way you would have complied with WP:NOPAY to begin with, proposed edits on the talk page and we would have avoided your initial attempts to turn the article into a marketing tool for your client. You didn't and we're here because you continue to believe those rules don't apply to you. And you forgot Jim1138, Second Quantization and an IP who all objected to various parts of your various claims. And your new declaration makes it clear you are being paid by a public relations and media management company for whom A2 is a major client. St★lwart 11:09, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I have requested comment from the Wikimedia Foundation on this issue: their new Terms of Use do allow for editors to accept a fee, so how do they view a situation such as this? Did they envisage that an editor who did so would consequently be subjected to such a tirade and a clear pattern of obstruction? But in the meantime I'll ask again, if Stalwart111 can just draw breath from his outpouring of venom and vitriol: what, in the existing article (the outcome of the collaboration and compromise achieved after the intervention of User:WhatamIdoing), is promotional? And can he please return to the article talk page and express a view on whether the sources I promptly and comprehensively provided in answer to his request support the paragraph he removed? BlackCab (TALK) 12:37, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh please, it's not a "tirade" or "venom" or "vitriol". You and your multinational corporate client are not the victims here. WP:NOPAY is very clear - "you are receiving, or expect to receive, monetary or other benefits or considerations from editing Misplaced Pages as a representative of an organization (as contractor of a firm hired by that organization for public-relations purposes...)". You fit squarely into that category. Why do you insist that the rules don't apply to you? I've answered your question - it isn't promotional now. But we've all been subjected to long and repetitive discussions by someone who is being paid to argue with us. WhatamIdoing? reinstated only 17,000 bytes of your 53,000-byte promotional edit. So about 35,000 bytes of promotional material was removed by the "compromise" you were forced to accept. And I've removed more since. And you've been fighting 6 editors on that talk page ever since. And you openly admit you want to add more. Either play by the rules or don't; your choice. St★lwart 13:48, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

"I have requested comment from the Wikimedia Foundation on this issue: their new Terms of Use do allow for editors to accept a fee, so how do they view a situation such as this?" You can accept a payment, but you are still required to follow WP:COI and WP:PAY. "what, in the existing article" The more interesting question is, if no one had stopped you, what would the article look like? We know the answer to that: . See WP:COIADVICE as well, particularly If the article you want to edit has few involved editors, consider asking someone at the talk page of a related Wikiproject for someone to make the change.. Second Quantization (talk)

Obvious promotional content is obvious. - 2/0 (cont.) 14:07, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

And obvious collaboration is obvious. I have accepted without demur the edits made early in the piece. Now a simple scientific statement has been removed and will not even be discussed, and a claim has been inserted into the lead based on a cherry-picked source. And I am subjected to non-stop abuse. BlackCab (TALK) 22:43, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

BlackCab, you're a long term and productive editor, so I don't understand why you've put yourself in this position by accepting a fee for contributions. Your edits to this article have brought forward a quantity of potentially useful sources and contributed to a more detailed piece on A2 milk. Whether these meet MEDRS is a live content dispute on the article talk page, which is where it should be. And the article as it currently stands is certainly a more comprehensive treatment of the subject than it as a few weeks ago. Its current form (thanks to various contributions)is not overly promotional, or is within the bounds of what can reasonably be argued out on a talk page.

However, it remains that you have a conflict of interest in editing an article on a company where that company is paying you to do so. This edit, at the least, contained material that other editors rightly considered promotional and lacking a neutral point of view. Increased scrutiny of these edits is not routinely harrassment, but part of the stricter examination of potentially COI paid contributions. You have appropriately declared that conflict on your userpage, though I think most people would dispute your claim that you are under no obligation to promote the product. Your PR agency is not funding your edits from a sense of philanthropy and whatever your independent intentions, it would be their reasonable expectation that the article you produce would be in the commercial interests of their client.

So: the declaration is great and in accordance with one half of WP:NOPAY. But there is a strong discouragement of paid editing, which is what you are currently engaged in. How about you now follow the other half of NOPAY and propose any further edits to this article solely on its talkpage rather than adding them directly to the article? Euryalus (talk) 22:57, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Euryalus. If the article on A2 milk is to be complete and thorough, it still needs to cover its history: how and why it came to market. This is essentially a section that deals with the science—the initial concerns that led to someone to decide to produce a milk free of A1 betacasein and the series of scientific reviews that followed. I concede (and have done so all along) that the science section (as with the digestive benefits section) was a bit ham-fisted, mainly because I was unaware of a Misplaced Pages policy on primary sourcing (the findings of researchers, even in peer-reviewed journals) on medical issues. In the days after uploading the article, I realised a more diplomatic approach would be to do just that: create a sandbox, drop the intended copy there and point to it from the talk page and invite discussion.

The problem now is that the hostility towards my edits and me personally have risen to levels that make any collaboration next to impossible. As I have mentioned, there are still two outstanding issues on the talk page that cannot be resolved because editors are focusing on the fee (and what they see as my compromised position) rather than the content: (a) an innocuous (but highly pertinent) scientific fact about the release of peptides during digestion of milk and (b) an edit that seems to be a deliberate negative twist in the lead, based on a cherry-picked source. Really, what hope do I have of sober, productive collaboration? I am on the receiving end both at that page and right here, of unwarranted abuse and a very clear lack of AGF. It seems to me my chances of progressing on the article now are practically nil. Wikimedia Foundation created Terms of Use that allow what am I am doing. Other editors need to accept that and work with it ... and me. BlackCab (TALK) 23:18, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Being a paid editor does not allow you to draw unsupported conclusions and put said conclusions into wikipedia articles. -Roxy the dog (resonate) 23:32, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

The collaboration process involves accepting the input of other editors and I have done that. Whatever errors of judgment I may have made in my first venture into paid editing have been removed and I have accepted that. Other editors have now ceased collaborating and are focusing on insult, obstruction and in the case of Roxy the dog deliberate provocation. BlackCab (TALK) 00:16, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

And still Roxy the dog persists in removing a {{dubious - discuss}} tag on the false statement he added based on a cherry-picked source. That edit is still under discussion. BlackCab (TALK) 02:35, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

And you keep edit-warring it back in. Nobody else agrees that statement is "dubious". You failing to hear what others are telling you is not the same thing as "still under discussion". Not a single person (here or there) has agreed with your suggestion that you should be exempt from WP:NOPAY or that your edits at A2 milk have been anything but promotional and tendentious. St★lwart 03:16, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

• Proposal - BlackCab's paid editing experiment has been an unmitigated disaster. Nobody is suggesting their contributions prior to this have been anything but constructive and positive. They have comprehensively demonstrated an ability to contribute productively to a range of areas over the course of many years. But that seems to have gone out the window at A2 milk. BC continues to believe that the provisions of WP:NOPAY should not apply to them, despite having clearly outlined that they fall into the category of editors specified there. Despite the issues, I firmly believe that blocking them would be a net loss to the project. But something must be done, if for no other reason than the promotionalism and argument has now transitioned to edit-warring. I ask that BlackCab be topic-banned from the subject of milk, broadly construed. St★lwart 03:16, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

• Support - My first reaction was to think that Doc James or WP:Medicine folks should be called in, but I see that was done long ago. Given the violation of WP:Promotion and an extremely argumentative display here and on the talk page, it's fairly easy to conclude that BC is being disruptive, even without the edit-warring. A milk-only topic ban is appropriate. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 03:43, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - Does the current article read as a promotion? Stalwart111 says above "it isn't promotional now." Is the article an improvement on its original stub? It covers much broader ground and is better sourced, so yes. Am I edit warring? I have twice reinstated a {{dubious - discuss}} tag on an issue that is still under discussion on the talk page. That's it. Am I argumentative? I have certainly argued my point on the talk page and on this page: that's the point of a talk page. Am I being disruptive? No. I have disrupted nothing. I am trying to collaborate, to resolve disputes on the talk page, but struggling against editors who have become hostile. A topic ban would be unwarranted. I am still seeking some meaningful, informed input on the issue of paid editing, which is now within the Wikimedia Terms of Use. My reading is that I am not promoting the product and am therefore free to edit the article. Others clearly disagree, and I think this issue needs fuller, reasoned discussion. BlackCab (TALK) 05:03, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban from milk, based not on paid editing but on use of Misplaced Pages for promotional activity, which is already prohibited by policy. User's edits would support topic ban whether or not there was a COI; in fact, status as paid editor is rather superfluous to this discussion. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 16:15, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - I see no benefit to the project for sanction of any kind on BC, as once this drama is over I seriously doubt he will want to return to this topic. As a consumer of a2 milk, BC must believe in the benefits as having genuine science backing, (as so successfully promoted by those who gain financially from the market segmentation.) His disruptive behaviour and disregard for COI related policy and guidelines such as WP:NOPAY stem from the fact that he is acting "in good faith". As an extremely experienced editor with considerable writing talent, this first foray into paid editing and a scientific topic has been unpleasant, and this drama is the downside of his lack of understanding of the way we interpret scientific evidence. Nobody gains if a sanction is applied. -Roxy the dog (resonate) 07:31, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

• I fully agree with a topic ban. I regard paid editing as a pariah to this project. Blackcab does decent work in other areas and I disagree often with him on his views but paid editing is a BAD THING...Hell in a Bucket (talk) 18:04, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

• On a side note conflicts of interest seem to be BC's biggest flaw as a contributor, the disturbing part is the singlemindedness to push their POV, I think that they can be contained but especially where there is vested interest we should be proactive more rather then wait for them to sneak in more whitewashing. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 18:54, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose a topic ban. Absolutely not. There's an accusation that BC's edits have been sub-standard because they were paid to edit the A2 Milk article so the solution is a topic ban on milk? What if they're paid to write about bacon? Will we have that discussion again, until topic areas have been exhausted? No. Protonk (talk) 16:11, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

No, the suggestion is that BC's edits have been sub-standard because BC cannot approach this topic from a neutral point of view. BC says their edits are only promotional insofar as they have developed a personal opinion about the subject no related to their paid employment. This topic ban proposal extends beyond that particular article because A2's competitor is A1 milk (basically all other milk). I've seen no evidence BC wouldn't be able to edit "bacon" related topics neutrally, as they have done with all other subjects beyond milk. St★lwart 00:28, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

• Support a block or whatever else can be done to stop this disruptive paid editor. Bhny (talk) 02:03, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
• support limited restriction The direct edits when no one was watching were clearly promotional and directly editing when one has a COI seems a bad idea in all situations, but they appear to be engage productively on the talk page. I suggest they be formally banned from directly editing the page, but allowed to continue in discussions and to make suggestions. The disruption is not so severe that a ban from all edits is necessary, although admittedly I haven't followed the discussions closely since I last contributed. Second Quantization (talk) 22:31, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Comment

I've stayed away from Misplaced Pages for a few days to cool down and collect my thoughts. I'll say this: I did make some misjudgments in the beginning with some of the content I added and I regret that. I went in hard and I should have trodden more lightly. It's clear that paid editing is a pathway that's fraught with danger, it can easily be misinterpreted and it clearly raises strong emotions. This was my first venture into it and in the end perhaps Stalwart was right: it was an unmitigated disaster, though I embarked on it with the best of intentions. Having said that, I'll repeat that of the six crimes Stalwart accused me of at the outset, five disappeared from the article (without objection from me) within 24 hours. The sixth is Stalwart's rather tortured interpretation of accepted science, though I accept that if it can be read that way, it should be reworded to remove ambiguity. Essentially the complaint against me is for something I wrote but which has long since disappeared through the normal process of collaboration. My attempt to remain working within the ToU has apparently been decided by some consensus to have failed, and the loudest voices here agree that my efforts were in the end promotional. (This was not my intent, but I accept my first edit injected a promotional element, which I regret). If the consensus is that I should approach the article only through the talk page, I will comply with that. I still have material on the history of A2 milk I wish to add, and the Chinese situation should be updated. But if it's decided that after all these years, all these edits and all this belated grovelling that I just can't be trusted, there's nothing I can do and I'll accept that and return to what I usually do. There have been some unfair and inaccurate claims against me, but c'est la vie. BlackCab (TALK) 10:28, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

• By far your most level-headed, reasonable and collegial contribution to the entire issue to date, especially when read together with your equally tempered post-break comment on the article talk page. Genuine regret, agreement that your original edits were promotional and a willingness to consider the best way to contribute moving forward. Significant concessions. How you contribute is still up to you (I've made my thoughts clear) but the fact that you're now willing to consider an alternate to processes employed thus far is a big step forward. Your break (intentionally of otherwise) stopped the edit-warring and the above strongly suggests you don't intend to jump back in and start that up again. If you can commit to waiting until a genuine consensus has developed on the talk page, I think we can work collaboratively on a proposal for a scientific history section and Chinese section. St★lwart 12:55, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

• That's a reasonable response, if and there's a big if in that one...If Black Cab will agree to a 1rr restriction or at least a very strong commitment to stray from contentious issues a full on topic ban may not be needed. I think we all have flaws as editors and as long as we address those sanctions are to avoid disruption and not punish. I think they still have enough bonafides to address this. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 19:30, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

• As indicated above, I will approach this only through the talk page. I have already done so using the {{Request edit}} template with success. I think we can move along more harmoniously now. BlackCab (TALK) 02:50, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

• Absolutely. St★lwart 04:05, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Move to close

Given the above and what's now happening on the talk page, I think this can safely be closed and archived. St★lwart 04:05, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

92.222.153.153

Can someone block Special:Contributions/92.222.153.153. It's probably Grawp/Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/JarlaxleArtemis. Thanks. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:07, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks @Materialscientist:...now it's Special:Contributions/62.244.31.16. There may be more in the pipeline I guess until he gets bored. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:40, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Blocked, blocked, the third one (not mentioned above) blocked too. The talk page temporarily s-protected as well. -- Hoary (talk) 08:15, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:21, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

And another one Special:Contributions/190.199.79.135. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:47, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

• Blocked and those two article s/protected. Black Kite (talk) 09:28, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Death threat? from 112.175.69.140

By 112.175.69.140 (talk · contribs)
On my talk page here 4x and multiple times
I'm not putting a ANI notice on the IP's talk page. Jim1138 (talk) 09:41, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Probably associated with the ANI immediately above Jim1138 (talk) 09:41, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Death threat or no death threat... This should be blockworthy if he had offered you flowers instead. Kleuske (talk) 09:49, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

IP blocked by FPAS; I've protected Jim's talkpage (since this fellow has a habit of reappearing with a new IP every two minutes). Yunshui _水 10:00, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

@Yunshui: I don't mind acting as a lightning rod. I'd rather my friend be vandalizing my pages than articles or other's talk pages. Jim1138 (talk) 10:25, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

• Same on my talkpage. I've s/protected that as well until our puerile friend gets bored. Black Kite (talk) 10:31, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Jeremy has now moved to Special:Contributions/190.38.118.55 + Special:Contributions/190.72.192.21 Sean.hoyland - talk 10:57, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

• Again, both blocked. Could someone more knowledgable than me check if these and the earlier IPs are proxies? They're in different countries from the earlier ones and it would fit our friend's MO. Black Kite (talk) 11:00, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

112.175.69.140 port 3128, and 190.72.192.21 port 8080, they are open and usable. I extended the 8080 to a year, Fut Perf. already blocked the other for webhost, which is close enough. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 11:10, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Nailed the other two as well, ports 8080. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 11:37, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

• Getting close to time to take this to law enforcement, and in my view should they begin naming names, the line is going to crossed. Jusdafax 11:26, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

And 181.198.187.133, ostensibly in Ecuador. -- Hoary (talk) 11:41, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Port 80 was an open proxy, and with a Captcha system to prevent abuse, which I find ironic. 1 year blocked. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 12:05, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

He's moved to Special:Contributions/186.91.64.115 and now he is damaging content. Please semi-protect every single page he edits. Sean.hoyland - talk 12:44, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Blocked, and I've assumed it's another open proxy. Acroterion (talk) 12:53, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

A rangeblock is under consideration here.  —SMALLJIM  16:41, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Block needed

Michelle47 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is using a script to spam User talk:Sean.hoyland with (so far as I am aware) false accusations about anti-Semitic attacks. If, by some weird circumstance, her claims were legitimate, the actions still warrant a cool-down block. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:11, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

@Ian.thomson: I'm sure you already know this, but it's usually best to avoid describing it as a cool down block.—LucasThoms 00:17, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Regardless, ten null edits and then spamming the same personal attack on the same talk page several dozen times seems pretty blockable. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:20, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

It is most likely this guy Misplaced Pages:Long-term_abuse/JarlaxleArtemis. Reported him here, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 00:27, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

It is, he's blocked, talkpage protected, please WP:DENY. Acroterion (talk) 00:29, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Back again as 190.198.91.183 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) , Cheers, Huldra (talk) 00:36, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

...and 186.88.232.226 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) , Huldra (talk) 00:41, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Both blocked. Euryalus (talk) 00:47, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Also 190.79.128.147 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Electric Wombat (talk) 00:48, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Ok, now he is on my talk-page, rev-dels needed, please? And block of s 190.72.30.175 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Huldra (talk) 01:18, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Now as 186.88.64.47, on User talk:Zero0000. AddWittyNameHere (talk) 01:31, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

And under an attack-username I will not cite here. Obvious on the page history of abovementioned talkpage, however. AddWittyNameHere (talk) 01:33, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Account-name created at 1.36 https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Log/newusers User talk:Malik Shabazz under attck. Huldra (talk) 01:38, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

and 186.89.187.156 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Huldra (talk) 01:46, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

• This is part of what is filed at WP:SPI for a quick check. I already did a /17 rangeblock, but it needs more and I'm off to bed and have a busy day tomorrow. It needs someone who knows how to block ranges to do anon blocks on a dozen or so ranges, which means doing homework, and I just don't have the time for at least 16 hours. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:53, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Another sock ♥ Solarra ♥ ߷ _{♀ 投稿 ♀} 07:15, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Jeremy aka JarlaxleArtemis is back

• Special:Contributions/190.205.18.90
• Special:Contributions/186.93.207.200

Any page he touches needs to be semi-protected. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:13, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

I would extend that to some talk pages as well. ♥ Solarra ♥ ߷ _{♀ 投稿 ♀} 07:18, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

And More Nonsense

Posting here as well as AIV: ♥ Solarra ♥ ߷ _{♀ 投稿 ♀} 07:48, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

More eyes needed on https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Log/newusers, block and rev-del abusive user-names, please, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 08:04, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

I've seen at least one ♥ Solarra ♥ ߷ _{♀ 投稿 ♀} 08:35, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Heh, we all got them, take it a very special barnstar... I do! Cheers, Huldra (talk) 09:01, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Khan Yunis ...the article, that is, is now under attack. Check: 190.75.228.58 and 186.88.199.183 Huldra (talk) 08:56, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Heres another Sean.hoyland paid propgandist 4 EI (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) ♥ Solarra ♥ ߷ _{♀ 投稿 ♀} 09:45, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

More JA ♥ Solarra ♥ ߷ _{♀ 投稿 ♀} 10:07, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

More from Special:Contributions/190.203.98.221. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:16, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

More JA ♥ Solarra ♥ ߷ _{♀ 投稿 ♀} 10:31, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

"I will kill you, evil piece of shit", a direct death threat against a named person, so Jeremy has probably just broken Californian law. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:36, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

He's already violated a half-dozen federal (US) laws. But I'll leave that up to the Foundation. I don't place too much faith in his nonsense. ♥ Solarra ♥ ߷ _{♀ 投稿 ♀} 10:50, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

P.S.: He Also Called Sean a "Nazi Subhuman" in his edit summary. This Getting Slightly out of hand. TF 15:44, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Article was protected a few hours ago, and I've now revdeled that edit summary. Monty₈₄₅ 15:56, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

This has been quiet for a while now, I think the range blocks placed seems to have solved the issue. ♥ Solarra ♥ ߷ _{♀ 投稿 ♀} 18:45, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

In future situations, it would be best to not repost the concerning sentences in the diff links as this defeats the purpose of using revision deletion. Mike V • Talk 20:44, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Aye. Speaking as someone who's dealt extensively with him in this phase of his cycle and someone who keeps up to date on his LTA page, revert the garbage, provide a diff of the disturbing edit (and/or forward any disturbing emails you receive) to the Foundation via email as per the LTA report, and semi-protect his targets for a brief while. (Abuse filters don't work too well as he just probes them until he finds something that works.) —Jeremy v^_^v 19:10, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Long term abuse user again back

See previous thread. Now back as Special:Contributions/201.243.126.28. (Edit summaries and edits are pretty obviously JarlaxleArtemis, particular in their attacks against Sean.hoyland. Likely to reappear under a different IP or username as soon as blocked. AddWittyNameHere (talk) 02:55, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

More Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/JarlaxleArtemis disruption. Please block

• Special:Contributions/184.48.170.229
• Special:Contributions/190.38.18.28
• Special:Contributions/78.93.120.165
• Special:Contributions/187.216.41.198

...and semi-protect every page edited. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:26, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Judging from the nature of the edit at 1929 Hebron massacre and the details for 186.93.164.54, these IPs are likely to be Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/JarlaxleArtemis.

• Special:Contributions/2601:D:9580:E47:CDB7:DC6E:D823:87C3
• Special:Contributions/186.93.164.54

Others include

• Special:Contributions/201.243.169.144
• Special:Contributions/190.201.96.250
• Special:Contributions/201.243.161.156
• Special:Contributions/190.36.170.134

Every page edited by JarlaxleArtemis needs semi-protection. That is more important that revdeling their edit summaries. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:37, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

201.243.161.156 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) tried to delete Sean's above post, and then reverted a random edit of his, so I'm guessing it's probably the same guy as well. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:37, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Need eyes on user creation log. Attack usernames are again being created, similar to the spree at 22nd July. (revdelled) example can be found at 22:08 (20:08 UTC) in the user creation log. Going by the pattern established, more usernames of a similar kind will likely pop up soon. AddWittyNameHere (talk) 20:55, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Please look through this part of the userlist and block the one not yet blocked. AddWittyNameHere (talk) 21:07, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

No need, someone locked it globally. Thanks, NawlinWiki (talk) 21:08, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Alright, good to know. Hope that's the end of this for now, I can imagine nicer things to do with my time than hunt this one down to prevent further disruption. Also, my strongest possible sympathies for having to deal with this, Nawlin. AddWittyNameHere (talk) 21:11, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

• No problem - I'm used to it. Jeremy's obsessive/repetitive behaviors haven't changed one bit since he was 15 years old and was upset with Misplaced Pages for not posting his Dungeons and Dragons articles. It's almost Pavlovian. Interfere with his vandalism, and he starts posting the same old cowardly, yet machinelike insults. Not even interesting anymore. NawlinWiki (talk) 21:18, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

  It's really quite sad to see that even after all these years he's still at it. You'd think he would have grown up and moved on by now. Blackmane (talk) 09:58, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

NawlinWiki I put in the request for oversight. As for a more permanent solution, the Foundation legal department really should file a complaint with the FBI under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. Appeals to him, his mother, his ISP(s) have all fallen on deaf ears. I know the Foundation has (to my knowledge) never pursued charges against an individual, perhaps it is time. With so many years as evidence, it's the only way I can see to get Jeremy to stop. ♥ Solarra ♥ ߷ _{♀ 投稿 ♀} 19:51, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

IANAL, but due to his constant use of open proxies and his (past) tendency to have 4chan users post his threats by proxy, wouldn't it be nigh-impossible to confirm it is him as far as a court of law goes? (Also, I'm under the impression from the LTA page that the Foundation is either already contemplating or in the process of doing so, in which case they wouldn't be saying anything one way or another.) —Jeremy v^_^v 20:06, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I am a lawyer. (this is not legal advice just opinion) The long, long history easily confirmed enough of it is him to give at least probable cause for various search warrants. The proof they would gather from the various ISPs, the Foundation, Wikia, etc could easily lock him away for a long time. ♥ Solarra ♥ ߷ _{♀ 投稿 ♀} 22:55, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Addition: I agree that the LTA page points that the foundation is already considering legal action, I'm just requesting that the Foundation actually pursue it. I'm sure I'm not the only editor that would be more than a little relieved to see a story on CNN about Jeremy being arrested. Now, the fact that some of the abuse occurred when he was a minor could complicate things, but since he's been at it so long, even just prosecuting the stuff since he was of legal age would most likely garner a conviction. ♥ Solarra ♥ ߷ _{♀ 投稿 ♀} 23:01, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Solarra: I doubt very much that the WMF will ever do anything here. It would be wonderful if I was wrong, but I just don`t think so. I have not had my email enabled for years, because the WMF never even got a filter in place to stop him sending hundreds of abusive emails in a couple of minutes. In short, so far, they have not lifted a finger to stop him, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:33, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Even if they did, you wouldn't know about it until after the fact, Huldra. And unless you're a specific current target of his ire, it's perfectly safe to have your email enabled (He's all but given up on me and NawlinWiki, for the most part.) —Jeremy v^_^v 20:23, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Persistently mass-nominating templates for deletion during discussion

Hi,

The Banner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been nominating endless aircraft templates for deletion; here, here and here at least. They have been asked to stop while the matter is discussed, primarily here on the WikiProject Aircraft talk page, and specifically warned here about their behaviour. Now the nominations have restarted - see diff. This is creating a mass of work for those involved, while the Project discussion remains ongoing. This editor is clearly not prepared to wait for consensus. Can someone take a look and review their behaviour? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:21, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

I've complained once before about this sort of behavior with redirect nominations, though apparently my complaint wasn't correct in some way. While I've had positive interactions with The Banner in the time since, my belief is that this sort of mass-nomination behavior is disruptive. I sort of look at is as an extension of the rulemaking versus adjudication distinction in American administrative law: think of XfD as an adjudicative process (good for small numbers of items, and not generally binding on future decisions), while a RfC is a type of rulemaking (good for making general rules that can be applied over and over without much argument).

I believe there are more than enough templates at issue here that it's inappropriate to handle them through piecemeal adjudication (i.e., TfD). Keep in mind that Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines are descriptive rather than prescriptive, and if a significant mismatch between the codified policy and the actual practice appears, the answer is to first reevaluate the policy to see if it still reflects community consensus. In this case, I would argue that there are more than enough "violating" templates from more than enough sources to make this an inappropriate matter for resolution via XfD.

Yes, Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy... but that same argument cuts against creating dozens of individual XfDs claiming some basis in practice... when each of those XfD subjects is a counter-example to the practice. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 14:33, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Just to highlight The Banner's approach to collaborative editing, here is a statement of their personal vendetta against another editor. When they post their own defence, the Banner then has the nerve to accuse them of lacking good faith, see this post to their talk page. This issue is not really about how to nominate, but how to behave during this, or any other, discussion. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:54, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Have you seen the banging at the door heres User talk:The Banner/Archives/2014/July where I told Ahunt multiple times that it is not the case of convincing me or his peers, but that he has to convince the administrators active at TfD. That was an argument no one wanted to accept. The sheer fact that I accepted a barnstar for the nominations, was followed by a backlash. Referring to the revenge aspect: almost from the beginning Ahunt was accusing me of doing bad faith nominations. I have asked him multiple times to stop with those false accusations, as it is not true (I still believe the WP:NENAN-nominations are valid). He went on and on so at one time I make the (not so clever) remark that I would nominate the templates of an extra letter as long as he did not stop with the false accusation. He did not stop, so I nominated. The Banner talk 15:30, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

See what I mean? Two fingers up to ArbCom, we know it's not so clever, but let's just spite another editor anyway. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 15:58, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Nice that the aggressive defence is ending up on AN/I. A beautiful case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT and WP:IDONTHEARTHAT. In general, the aircraft boys refuse to believe my argument dat WP:NENAN is a valid argument, although it is an essay. See a few links:

1. Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2013 June 8
2. Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2013 June 2
3. Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2013 June 4
4. Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 May 13
5. Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2011 June 3
6. Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2012 August 26

And then, off course, you have the editing guideline WP:REDNOT with is argument: Red links generally are not included in either See also sections or in navigational boxes, (...).

The very reason to nominate just a few templates a day is to give Ahunt, and the rest of his Wikiproject, a fighting change to write the articles needed to comply with the threshold of five valid blue links. Flooding TfD with long lists of articles failng WP:NENAN is also possible but that is in my eyes unpolite, as it reduces the time/chance to write the needed articles. The Banner talk 15:14, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

In fact, there are 478 pages on TfD where WP:NENAN is mentioned/used as argument. The Banner talk 15:47, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

So after more than 450 times of usage, it is suddenly not a valid argument? The Banner talk 21:50, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Mass nominations of this type have been strongly discouraged by ArbCom as fait accompli. They've asked you to take this to discussion, not deletion, you should be discussing those there. --MASEM (t) 15:21, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

The Project did. The consensus has so far been solidly against The Banner - see here. Hence the repeated returns to TfD in a bid to gain a more persuadable audience. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 15:58, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Comment, the vast majority of the templates closed with the primary reason of "Failing NENAN" were uncontested deletions. A significant subset were "moved" rather than "deleted". --Zfish118 (talk) 18:03, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

That is right, quite a few are merged, moved or extented. That is what I mentioned as "rescued". There are just very few templates with less than five relevant links kept. That was usually based on good arguments (IIRC arguments like the likelihood of more links coming in the near future). The Banner talk 20:39, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

The Banner is being disingenuous in his invocation of WP:REDNOT although "red links generally are not included in either See also sections or in navigational boxes", "An exception is red links in navboxes where the red-linked articles are part of a series or a whole set, e.g. a navbox listing successive elections, referenda, presidents, sports league seasons, etc.", which is the case with these navboxes. He is also being disingenuous when he says that his acceptance of a barnstar for these nominations was followed by a backlash: the backlash is clearly caused by the way he accepts, which very much looks like this is a personal issue for him. Generally, this editor is much too free with accusations that other people are making personal attacks when all that is being done is questioning his reasons for these mass deletion nominations and expressing disagreement.TheLongTone (talk) 16:28, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

I was hoping this problem could be resolved simply by the upcoming admin closures of the existing template nominations for deletion, since all have clear consensuses to "keep", which should have sent a clear message that further noms would be a waste of time. But it seems that User:The Banner wished to force the issue here to ANI, as had been discussed by some editors previously here, by his continuing to nominate WikiProject Aircraft manufacturer navigation box templates for deletion against a solid consensus that was established, with his participation, here. User:The Banner has stated here and here that he will not accept any consensus about these nav boxes and will continue to nominate them for deletion against consensus regardless. This is Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing and he has been warned about that previously here. Here and again here he indicates that his motivation for continuing to nominate templates against consensus is one of revenge. He has been warned before not to do this to make a WP:POINT but has continued, adding uncivil edit summaries, such as here and uncivil responses such as here for two examples. At this point it is clear that User:The Banner has become disruptive just to make a point and that means that he is WP:NOTHERE. I would suggest that the the best resolution at this point would be a topic ban of all aviation articles, and specifically a ban on nominating aviation templates for deletion for User:The Banner. - Ahunt (talk) 17:15, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Don't forget your long list of accusations of bad faith nominations, for instance on Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 July 16 (3x), Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 July 17 (4x). And don't forget to tell that your false bad faith accusations were just a part of you protecting your own templates. And in the mean time you just go on with your harassing. Just wait a bit more and see what happens when the administrator starts judging the templates. In the mean time: there is nothing illegal to write extra article or add more relevant links to a template to have those 5 relevant links. The Banner talk 20:24, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

As someone who frequently !votes at TfD, (and one who individually examined and !voted keep or delete on most of the templates in question here,) I don't think either Ahunt or The Banner acted in bad faith. The Banner was only nominating as he believes correct. The way he went about it annoyed me in this situation, but was not bad faith. If he had been approached in a different way, he probably would have worked with the project, at least allowing more time between nominations. Many of us have been notified of XfD nominations or other deletions. Ahunt and others in the project received an intimidating stream of these. I didn't follow user talk pages well enough to know if anyone overreacted, but I haven't seen anything I would call bad faith, (though calling each other bad faith came pretty close.) I hope an RfC would be a good way to settle the dispute. Although NENAN significantly overlaps many other editors' basic requirements for a navbox, there is enough variance that consensus can be hard to reach. —PC-XT+ 04:04, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

The Banner seems to have a flawed understanding of WP:POLICY. The Aviation project's MOS at WP:WikiProject Aviation/Style guide#Navigation templates proscribes the use of the template series as "beneficial for providing a consistent appearance to the entire set of articles within our scope." This is consistent with the WP:MILHIST project's use of the Campaignbox template. And just as some military campaigns may have few battles, some aircraft manufacturers may have few planes. The way in which these templates are used by both projects (and, I'm sure, other projects), they are something more than simply navigation templates. There's no violation of WP:CONLIMITED here since the WikiProject Aviation's Consensus (which is a policy) is not contradicted by a community consensus policy or guideline on a wider scale, since WP:NENAN is merely an essay. Mojoworker (talk) 21:13, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I am just a rude guy who treats every template, regardless of local hobbies, exactly the same. Just like articles are judged on their own merits, I judge templates on their own merits. The Banner talk 09:43, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Your rudeness doesn't bother me (although it might bother others). Your stubbornness on the other hand... I believe that you were originally acting in good faith, however, you seem to be digging your heels in (and digging yourself a deeper hole), despite a preponderance of seasoned editors telling you that you're mistaken. Mojoworker (talk) 20:52, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Proposal

The Banner clearly has no intention of listening to consensus. Is there any good reason why he should not be banned from nominating any further templates for deletion under pain of an indefinite block? Mjroots (talk) 20:40, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

I am willing to listen to consensus. That means, a wiki-wide consensus not a local one invented to protect the interests of a very limited group of people. Put in an RfC and I certainly will listen to the outcome of that. The Banner talk 21:21, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Banner, you repeatedly illustrate that you cannot accept consensus. You're one of the most stubborn individuals I've ever encountered on the website.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:45, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

A limited group we may be, but we are trusted by the community. This is because we work together, discuss things and have the grace to accept when consensus is against our particular point of view. We also have the ability to prevent you from editing. Let me be quite clear, the only reason I've not topic banned you or blocked you from editing indefinitely is that I'm involved insofar as I commented at the Wikiproject discussion. I dare say that if I were to block you, there wouldn't be a rush to reverse the block. It's getting late here in the UK, so I'm minded to leave this open overnight, unless sufficient consensus is gained for action to be taken or not, as the case may be. Mjroots (talk) 21:31, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose as not necessary. Start a RfC to resolve the underlying policy question, list it at T:CENT. If Banner starts more TfDs while that RfC is pending, then you can talk ban. But I suspect Banner will be reasonable enough to allow that RfC to run. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 23:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support - as a minimum . This emphasis on RfC is a little invidious. The WP:RFC section on Before starting the Request for comment process states, "If the article is complex or technical, it may be worthwhile to ask for help at the relevant WikiProject." All aircraft articles have by their nature a degree of technicality and complexity, while uniform presentation across articles is also important. At risk of repetition (link given twice already), we had that Project discussion and the result was total community consensus against The Banner. Their plea for an RfC and debasing remarks about the project look suspiciously like an attempt to wiggle round that. Also, judging by remarks made above, ArbCom et. al. have cut little ice with this user in the past, why should we expect sudden compliance with an RfC now? A ban would at least get across the reality of the message. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 10:27, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • A list of airplanes in a navigation templates is not difficult to create. The Banner talk 14:32, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

    Don't be silly. These templates serve to orchestrate the presentation of the technical and sometimes complex articles they appear in. From the viewpoint of RFC, they are effectively part of the article structure and need to be discussed in that context. Recall that favourite essay of yours, where it says that in such circumstances, a few simpler members of a much wider set are acceptable? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:43, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose There's nothing wrong with nomination templates for deletion, yes nomination a lot of them at the same time could be considered a disruptive act, but nothing presented here shows that to be true in this case. Kosh Vorlon    10:41, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment - the main disruptive act is that we have a consensus here not to do that, which he participated in, but didn't like the outcome of and is ignoring. Predominantly the issue here is one of editing against consensus to make a WP:POINT. - Ahunt (talk) 12:03, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Comment SOunds like a localconsensus issue. Localconsensus would have bearing , as far as I know , on the page being worked on, as long as it didn't conflict with Misplaced Pages policies at large. There's no policy on submitting anything for deletion, unless, of course, it's disruptive, which again , hasn't been shown to be the case. Kosh Vorlon    16:30, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Really? You are happy for anyone to persistently mass-nominate templates for deletion during discussion, are you? Even a bunch of templates you might happen to be discussing at the time on the relevant Project talk page? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:35, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

• • • And in fact you keep ignoring the fact that I am stating that you try to create a consensus on the wrong venue The Banner talk 14:32, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support Since he has shown he will not accept consensus and is being intentionally disruptive, I support a ban from nominating any further templates for The Banner. I don't see the point of an RfC at this point since it will just duplicate the consensus arrived at here. - Ahunt (talk) 12:03, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • What about my proposal Put in an RfC and I certainly will listen to the outcome of that. Are you afraid that a RfC might get an outcome you dislike? The Banner talk 14:32, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose I think the templates should be deleted. It would be in line with other TFD results and WP:NENAN has long been considered a valid argument. Also I see this whole ANI thread as an attempt to shut an editor up. Sometimes that might be in need of doing, but in too many cases its just an abuse around here....William 12:32, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

This ANI is not about trying to shut an editor up: it's about getting him to listen to counter-arguments and accept consensus. The principal counter-arguement is well put below by DieSwartzPunkt, a non-involved editor.TheLongTone (talk) 13:34, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

comment This sideswipe at the ANI nominator is from the very same editor who took a sideswipe at the project in his barnstar award to The Banner for starting their campaign. It is now clear that this campaign has been about circumventing the Project consensus from the word go. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 13:59, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

• • What about my proposal Put in an RfC and I certainly will listen to the outcome of that. Are you afraid that a RfC might get an outcome you dislike? The Banner talk 14:32, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support but read on: {uninvolved editor} If one starts with AGF, one should assume that, to begin with, the nominations were made in good faith following WP:NENAN. However, it has been repeatedly pointed out that that is not a policy but an essay (i.e. nothing moe than a point of view). However, despite that being pointed out, the nominations continued. As it is just an essay, one should consider the points that the essay is attempting to address with respect to the use to which the template is put. The text makes it clear that the issue with articles is, ".. before you know it, the article suddenly is more template than article". Looking at the affected articles, that does not seem to be the case as the infoboxes are relatively small. Therefore, I would suggest that WP:NENAN is a non arguement in this case. However, as far as I am concerned: WP:AGF left the stage when The Banner made it clear in various talk pages, that most (if not all) of the later nominations were in direct retaliation to the opposition put up to the deletions by (if I have this right) one or more other editors. This cannot be acceptable behaviour. Reviewing The Banner's edit history (always a good idea) shows a past substantially free from many of the editing problems seen at these pages, suggesting that a block may be excessive. My recommendation would be that The Banner should accept that the consensus is largely against him and withdraw all the nominations. If he is not prepared to do that, then a topic ban 'broadly interpreted' would be the best solution for the project. If the topic ban is ignored: then go ahead and block. (See below) DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 13:01, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Please, take a look at the edits of Ahunt too who accused me multiple times of bad faith nomination and is still continuing his campaign of discrediting me.
  • Secondly, the NENAN-agument was a valid argument for a couple of hundred times. Just the fact that one Wikiproject has a problem with it, does not my my nominations invalid. They are out there and soon an administrator will judge them. And soon, there will be an RfC to see if WP:NENAN is in the future a valid reason for nomination. I will honour the outcome from that RfC. The Banner talk 14:38, 25 July 2014 (UTC) And I will refrain of using the NENAN-argument till the new (RfC)-consenus is reached.

I did review all the contributions involved - it would be impossible to provide an uninvolved viewpoint otherwise. In the first place: it was clear from all those contributions that consensus was against you (though granted, not entirely unanimous). In the second place: you made it clear that your nominations were retaliatory. Both of those factors made subsequent nominations bad faith. I said so above. I am not interested about the history of the WP:NENAN arguments, I am considering this only in the current context which is what the established consensus is addressing. Essays have to be interpreted in the context of the current discussion - it actually says so within the text. I do not accept that others are discrediting you, when you continue to act outside of consensus. This is not your encyclopedia any more than it is mine. This is a comminity project and can only work with co-operation. The only question in my mind is: 'why are you persuing this?' - given that you do not have a history of tendentious editing. (See below)

I fail to see why an RfC is required when consensus is already against you. This is merely trying to game the system by trying to get a larger consensus because you do not like the outcome of the current one. What would you propose if such an RfC went against you - a world wide referendum?

A more important question is: 'why does this bother you so much?'. Why can't you just accept the position as it is and move on to editing something more acceptable and worthwhile? (See below) DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 16:49, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Because the discussion was not on a neutral venue and that specific local consensus was en is clearly intended to protect the own project and its templates. It is not a consensus set up to match the best interest of Misplaced Pages, something a RfC will most likely do. The Banner talk 19:15, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

So if you really believed the project was so rotten and the wider community would overturn its consensus at RfC, why didn't you just take it to RfC yourself? Why start a vendetta? That was the behaviour that got you dragged here. And why should we believe your pleadings for an RfC are not motivated by that same vendetta? Misplaced Pages is a big playground, why not just move on and recover your composure. That's why I like this proposal, it buys you that space. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 20:36, 25 July 2014 (UTC) Except, contrary to the suggestion of good conduct made by DieSwartzPunkt you have a history of losing your cool and getting banned - see my later comment below. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:31, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

User:The Banner, it is local consensus, but it is indeed consensus. What part of WP:CONLIMITED do you think applies here. Quoting from there: "participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope." What policy or guideline do you think trumps the consensus of the WikiProject in this situation? Mojoworker (talk) 21:27, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

• Support – As I said above, The Banner appears to have a flawed understanding of WP:CONLIMITED. He needs to read and understand WP:POLICY before taking anything else to TfD. Mojoworker (talk) 21:27, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • My friend, that is why I suggested to start a RfC. Just as WP:CONLIMITED says: Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale.. Seeing the few hundred times that WP:NENAN was used on TfD, there was at least some consensus that it was a valid argument. TfD is the wider scale, so a RfC is the way to go to get the wider scale consensus. The Banner talk 21:36, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Might the solution be to replace the typical begging-for-money banners with one directed to a referendum page? Then, anyone connecting to Misplaced Pages could post an opinion. Hard to get a much wider "community" than that. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:47, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

• Strong support That The Banner is even still allowed to edit wikipedia is because of the incompetence of the admins in dealing with his repeated problematic behaviour. He was allowed to return by HJ Mitchell on condition that he meets certain terms, and as far as I can see he's violated every one of them. Any editor who can't respect consensus should not be permitted to edit wikipedia, and Banner repeatedly illustrates he cannot accept consensus. In fact I'd say that the ban proposal should be extended to nominating articles for deletion as he repeatedly illustrates incompetence in nominations too and nominating notable articles which just need cleanup.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:43, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• Comment It has been said above somewhere that The Banner's edit record has generally been good. Let me refer you to their block log and to this archive of their user talk page, in which the most recent indef blocks are discussed. Nobody can hold that The Banner is innocent in all this aggressive PoV-pushing, deafness to argument and personal antagonism. It has quite evidently been their personal style for a long time. The current proposal may well not go far enough in dealing with such a chronically aggressive editor. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:09, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. It is indeed troubling. I see that his allegations that the members of WikiProject Ireland were conspiring against him three months ago seems very similar to his interaction with WikiProject Aviation now. A disturbing pattern. Mojoworker (talk) 17:38, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Looks like WP:NOTHERE to me. - Ahunt (talk) 01:35, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Ahunt, I am willing to accept that Banner has stepped on a bunch of toes, and that he can be abrasive. I could accept a lot more, maybe. But what I will not accept is someone saying that NOTHERE applies to Banner. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 04:04, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I think his record and his block log speaks for itself. He is consistently disruptive and ignores consensus. - Ahunt (talk) 11:27, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

That was me. It was very remiss of me not to check the block log or to see if there was a talk page archive. In the light of these revelations, I have struck parts of my posts above. Also, it is now apparent that this is indeed a case of WP:NOTHERE. I have also changed my !vote to an unqualifie 'support'. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 11:47, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• Banner cites NENAN as a rationale for deletion nominations. It looks like (from the RfC linked below) that NENAN is thrown out as a rationale for deletion nominations. Ergo, Banner will no longer cite NENAN as a rationale for deletion nominations. If he does, he's courting a block.

  No need for anything more drastic: this is not a discussion on his general behavior, but on the narrow one of his deletion nominations for templates--the most drastic measure I'll agree with is a limit on the number of deletion nominations, in general or specifically for these templates. Drmies (talk) 17:20, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

We need to let that RfC run to conclusion, which it will soon do, but I agree right now the consensus there is that WP:NENAN is of no value at deletion discussions. The only editor who seems to be still defending it there and opposing the WikiProject consensus on the matter is User:The Banner. - Ahunt (talk) 20:43, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

What consensus? That consensus reached on WikiProject Aircraft that according to the closing administrator of quite a lot of the nominated templates is NOT a convincing argument? The Banner talk 21:37, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Proposal 2: RfC

As nobody started anything: Misplaced Pages talk:Templates for discussion#Request for Comment: WP:NENAN.

And yes, I know not everybody is happy with this and I will get some flak and maybe a ban, but it has to be done.

Yours sincerely, The Banner talk 22:03, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Please help solve this gentle dispute and disagreement on deletion of the Article Future Group

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi , as you can see here , me and Msnicki have tried and failed to come up to a conclusion regarding deletion of the article . Msnicki feels this article is self published , not notable and ought to be deleted , all of which i politely yet firmly disagree . As much as i can view its revision history (i am not admin to see all of it), this article seems to be created/moved by a trusted user . I happen to came across this AFD and , knowing the familiarity of the company here in India, i decided to save it.(lets just say, you cannot go past 10 miles in any major city in India without coming across one of its supermarkets or fashion stores . They are literally all over the place; verify this with a google search , if you may :)). After a thorough R & D, i have added much more contents in it , even stuffing in stock exchange listings of one of its operating companies , but the user doesn't seem to get along with it . Would appreciate expert intervention, Thank you -- Sahil 05:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I have relisted - the "keep" !votes don't fully convince me - in fact, some people there seem to have no concept of notability. I'd prefer to see additional policy-based discussion. Note: that's a community discussion, not a fight between you and Msnicki. *NOTE*: Sahil, can you please fix your signature, as it does not link to either your userpage or talkpage as required the panda ₯’ 08:56, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Of course its not a fight , we are just in disagreement :D . I feel i had been polite throughout just as much as co-editor Msnicki , correct me if i am wrong. Oh, and about the sign , i dont know why my four tildes aren't working. If anyone can , please help me out at my talk page ( although thats a totally different topic) . Peace ! -- Sahil 09:41, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Operation Protetective Edge Background SYNTH issue

I initiated discussion on the original research noticeboard and made reference to it at the talk page of 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict regarding the background section being a classic example of SYNTH. There has been little traction and now the whole thing is locked down. The reasoning behind allowing the paragraph to stay is solely based on "other stuff exists". Can we get a couple eyes at the other noticeboard? I honestly can't see how the info can stay but would feel better if folks took a look and gave a quick summary based on policy for it meeting Misplaced Pages standards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard#Operation_Protective_Edge.23Background — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.37.13.27 (talk) 05:45, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Israel is trying to kill off or cripple as much of the Hamas war machine as they can. Is there some issue about that fact? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:34, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

It is grossly out of line that Misplaced Pages actually has had a live edit stating: "The pro-Israeli version is that..." for a day now. Every major RS notes that the spark was kids getting killed on both sides. It is fun to try to assign blame and I thought that there was no way edits so out of line with WP standards would stand. I was incorrect. This is a good example of why Misplaced Pages is losing both editors and readers. No one reads past the lead anyways so it isn't a big deal. La Familia can continue to the fight in the street since the internet is obviously a boring cause. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.37.13.27 (talk) 06:11, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Do or did they likewise have "The pro-Hamas version is that..."? If so, it would at least be "balanced". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:53, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Netoholic changing templates at WP:WPTC

Netoholic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been embarking on a complete overhaul of Template:Infobox hurricane; while this has met a lot of opposition at WT:WPTC, the real reason I am here is because of the repeated disruptions involving Template:Infobox hurricane current. In this section, Netoholic repeatedly argues against the clear consensus that "hurricane current" should be left alone (and not merged with "Infobox hurricane"). The user then took the "hurricane current" template to TfD (see here, in what may have been bad faith, as it was clear there was no support for deletion. Then, going against consensus, Netoholic did this (which was quickly reverted), as well as this (without even bothering to leave an edit summary). Then, today, apparently still not following consensus, Netoholic made this change, which was similar to the previous one. I think me and several other members of WP:WPTC are past tired of these antics. Also, another thing tiring editors is Netoholic's repeated attempts to "fix" unbroken things, which has also met opposition from longtime WP:WPTC editors. You can see most of that frustration at WT:WPTC. Some, including myself and User:Yellow Evan, are at the point of calling for all of these unwanted changes to be reverted. United States Man (talk) 17:54, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Specific relevant discussions include:

• Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Tropical cyclones#Problems with the merged tropical cyclone templates and Template:Infobox hurricane
• Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Tropical cyclones#SSHWS
• Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Tropical cyclones#Subtropical storms

I hope those specific links help in some way or another regarding this. There have also been relevant discussions at User talk:Netoholic. Dustin (talk) 18:34, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I Oppose any action against Netoholic. An indepth analysis of the above links complemented by the discussion on this user's talk page would reveal that this user is just pursuing in good faith what s/he believes to be right. The banner on the talk page "Some thoughts" also summarize the theme of his editing efforts here. Sticking to one's convictions consistent with the overall Misplaced Pages policies does not and should not warrant an action. The above issue should be resolved through discussion on respective talk pages. No admin action needed. --PeterCRames (talk) 19:32, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

So you are saying that repeatedly going against consensus deserves no action? Some of this may be in good-faith, but some is also disruptive. United States Man (talk) 19:35, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Amazing that a week-old account with only 42 edits is able to make such an indepth study regarding Misplaced Pages's ways and an editor's intentions. --Calton | Talk 04:14, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Calton again avoid personal attacks plz. "a week-old account with only 42 edits" - Do unregistered users not use Misplaced Pages? How do these metrics predict a person's knowledge level about Misplaced Pages policies? I don't claim to be knowledgeable but an IP is also allowed to voice it's opinion. If there is a minimum rule prescribed by the admin I'll stop right away. Else I'll voice my opinion in the disputes I'm not involved. --PeterCRames (talk) 09:51, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Again, since I have made no personal attacks whatsoever, your laughably clumsy bit of deflection will receive no consideration whatsoever. --Calton | Talk 16:18, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

A gentle reminder: You (Calton) have been blocked indefinitely from editing for racist edit sumamries & general awful attitude towards others. (7 March 2013) here --PeterCRames (talk) 01:12, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that that wasn't an incompetently executed block for bogus reasons by an admin exercising bad judgment and reading comprehension-- a bit of stretch, but we'll try. So, the relation of that "gentle reminder" to the issue at hand? Oh, right: nothing whatsoever.

So, being determined to check off every box on the "Obvious Sockpuppet is Obvious" bingo card, are there any others you'd like to try? And a "gentle reminder": indulging in -- by your logic -- personal attacks while whinging about how awful they are isn't a good tactic for drawing attention away from yourself.

And speaking of reading comprehension, you seem to have failed to answer the direct question asked of you: what was your previous account? And to add: why are you using a new account instead of your original? Shall I rephrase, to make it easier? --Calton | Talk 05:33, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• I've read the WPTC thread (leading up to this AN/I request) and I don't see a need for an admin to step in. Protonk (talk) 23:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

A bit of offensive bigotry

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Requesting a review of the exchange here. The user Asdisis (talk · contribs) proposed a change to the article's text. My reply to his post was to the effect that his position is based on a misconception about Croatian national history, and against cited sources. To which he replied I am a Serbian nationalist pushing a Serbian nationalist agenda (Croats and Serbs being rather antagonistic towards each other due to the '90s war). My response was to point out I am in fact Croatian (just as he is), and that his allegations are absurd. To which I was informed that I am likely a secret Serb nevertheless, posing as a Croat to deceive him, with the user continuously making references to my Serbian "nationalist agenda" (most recently in the thread below that one ). My stomach churning somewhat, I decided to appeal to the community for a warning or sanction against further such behavior. -- Director (talk) 18:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

1 - I had not purposed any change, I just started a discussion.

2 - I had not hastily accused Director of nationalistic agenda. I had other discussions with him, and I based my allegation upon my experience dealing with him in earlier discussions. That is why i stated in my first response to him that "I suspect he has nationalistic agenda" and that I think discussing him is pointless. I simply do not want to discuss with him since I consider that his actions are not done in good faith.

3 - After my first response, he said that he is Croatian, thus he can't have anti-Croatian nationalistic agenda. I stated that his claim that he is Croatian can not mean that he does not have nationalistic agenda. I explicitly said that his act determine his behavior, not his nationality.

4 - I also stated that there is a possibility he is lying about his nationality to hide his nationalistic agenda. I personally think that is the case here. I based my allegation upon his pro-Serbian nationalistic agenda. There are far better chances that he is Serbian, since he has pro-Serbian nationalistic agenda. However I explicitly said that his nationality is not important and that his claims can not erase a clear pattern of his behavior. In the above post he is misrepresenting the case, stating that I accused him being Serbian, and that he has nationalistic agenda. The case is quite the opposite. I said that he has nationalistic agenda, and that I think there are far better chances that he is lying about his nationality so he could disprove any allegation about his nationalistic agenda. I have seen that tactics on several occasions.

5 - I never stated my nationality, so the above post reflects Director's opinion. I may also accuse him of alleging my nationality.

6 - I have not constantly referring to Director's nationalistic agenda. I had other discussions with him and I base my allegation on those discussions.

7 - I would be willing to reference that discussions, since they are important for this case. If only this discussion is looked, it may look like I accused Director of nationalistic agenda out of the clear sky. That is not the case. I also oppose to discuss nationalities. I had not based my allegation upon nationality. On the other hand, Director had tried to overturn my allegation with stating his nationality. I explicitly said that nationalities are not important, only acts and patterns of behavior. I only mentioned my opinion about Director's nationality because I think he is lying, and that is related to his acts. Even if he is telling the truth about his nationality, and there is no way to confirm that, his Croatian nationality can not mean that he does not have nationalistic agenda. Asdisis (talk) 19:39, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Talk about the content not the contributor, both of you. Argumentum ad hominem will only lead to trouble. If you cannot stick to talking about the content then consider taking a break or just work in another area. Regardless of who either of you are your arguments should stand on their own. Chillum 19:46, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Ad hominem tactics have a great rate of success on Misplaced Pages. I'm a new editor and from the first discussion I had I learned that. My several dozen sources were overturn by ad-hominem attacks. I mention that, because Director himself used ad-hominem attack and accused me of sock sockpuppeting. I had not used ad-hominem attack in this discussion. I just stated that I refuse to discuss with Director, and stated my reasoning. Asdisis (talk) 19:55, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, if you refuse to discuss with Director, then move to another article. Consensus doesn't exist without discussion - problem solved. the panda ₯’ 20:08, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree. I already have moved on. I noted that discussion is open for other editors and I would like to objectively discuss with anyone who is rational and reasonable. It seems that my analysis have touched Director's nerve so he brought this to ANI. Asdisis (talk) 20:37, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Nice personal attacks. Not planning on sticking around long, eh? Drop by, stir up crap, make insults, then be shown the door? Wouldn't be surprised if you'd had previous run-ins with Director with another account and figured you'd try to pop another nail in the coffin the panda ₯’ 22:14, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Those are serious allegations. I do not think this is appropriate. "stir up crap" , "insults"?? You will have to explain. I had previous discussions with Director, yes. I haven't up to now accused him of anything, although he used ad-hominem attacks against me in those discussions. In fact i regarded him in those discussions as the only one who is discussing in good faith. Up to now, my behavior towards him was commendable. As for the last allegation. Is it common for Director to have "run-ins"? Has someone else made the same allegations against him? I really did not have previous accounts, what makes you think I had? Director, and another editor also accused me of that, but I regarded that allegations as a part of ad-hominem attack, since they haven't further explained. Asdisis (talk) 22:32, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

You just suggested he was not "rational and reasonable", right? You don't feel that meets the definition of a personal attack? the panda ₯’ 22:47, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Out of sheer curiosity: whose "nationalistic agenda" do you believe I am pushing? -- Director (talk) 22:59, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

@Asdisis. I'll take the silence as indicative of your realization that one cannot allege "nationalist agendas" without picking a nation. Its very obvious that you have taken it upon yourself to presume, and even deny, my nationality on the basis of my opposing you ("you oppose me, I think you're Serbian"). I could care less what you think about my ethnicity etc, but I'll thank you to keep your bigoted opinions to yourself. -- Director (talk) 20:23, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I had not answered because this is not a continuation of previous discussions. Read again my posts more careful and you will see that I was quite clear. I said several times that I do not want to talk about nationalities, and that your claim about your nationality can not overturn a clear pattern of you behavior. Do not try to misrepresent the case. I had not, ever, had the "you oppose me, I think you're Serbian" attitude. It's quite opposite, you claimed that you are Croatian thus you can't have nationalistic agenda. That simply does not follow, so please stop repeating your nationality in every discussion you have. Asdisis (talk) 20:52, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Here, you're doing a lot of talking about nationalities. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:33, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

No, I do not. Yes, I'm talking about nationalities however I just answered Director who started to justify his acts by stating his nationality. We had a few post long conversation. I also have to mention that this discussion is just a continuation of our previous encounters. I asked if it would be helpful to reference other discussions I had with him. Director is the one who initialized a talk about nationalities. I answered a few times, however I always drove attention from talk about nationalities which is not the center point of my comment. It's just a part of the reply. I stated clearly that nationalities are not important. To quote myself " I frankly doubt your claim. But that isn't important.". I stated that I doubt his claim, but that nationalities are not important, that "I had not mentioned his nationality." in my previous comments. He clearly misunderstood me when he replied "Oh yes, I must be Serbian if I don't agree with Croatian nationalist nonsense.. No Real Croat would do such a thing.. ", so I had to explain once again that "I do not base my allegation on his nationality and that I explicitly stated that his national agenda can be seen trough his acts.". I tried to explain how his claim about being Croatian can't give him any credit, since I saw that tactics from him in earlier discussions when I presented numerous sources to disprove his "I'm Croatian, believe me" attitude. I spent enormous time to find sources and investigate before I figured out that he is only leading me on in a futile chase. I also noted that there is even no way to tell if he is telling the truth. I tried to explain how he can be Croatian and have anti-Croatian nationalist agenda in an effort to explain how futile are his claims that he is Croatian. Yes, I mentioned nationalities, however I only replied to his comment, and always explicitly mentioned that nationalities are not important. Asdisis (talk) 23:04, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Holy crap. I wasn't sure there was a real issue ... until Asdisis' comment at 23:04 above. Director, you're right ... so now, what to do about it? the panda ₯’ 23:11, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

What issue? I'm new here and I will accept the punishment if I broke some rules. I'm still not familiar with all the rules. I hope, I will learn something from this process. Maybe you can further explain and reference the rules I violated. That would be helpful. Asdisis (talk) 23:25, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

• This discussion has gone in the wrong way. The bottom line is that I refused to discuss with director and we had a few post long conversation about the reasoning which belongs to out previous encounters. I felt that he is not discussing in good faith and that I will only loose time discussing with him. Asdisis (talk) 23:16, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Nooo, the bottom line is that you're insulting people along ethnic/national lines, which is obviously not in good faith. the panda ₯’ 23:18, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

That was not my intention. Maybe you misunderstood something. Could you quote my statement that you think is an insult? Asdisis (talk) 23:28, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I already quoted one that you said much earlier in this thread. Turned out that was a pretty tame one, considering the rest of the story the panda ₯’ 23:41, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm afraid that I can not see it. If you think of "rational and reasonable" , that is not an insult along ethnic/national lines. Maybe you could further explain your view of the rest of the story. I tied to objectively explain what happened in the discussion to be helpful. Maybe it doesn't go in my favor, but I tried to be objective, and give a detail explanation supported by quotes. It would be helpful if you could do the same, since I really do not see upon what you arrived to those conclusions. A more detail explanation would prevent such mistake to repeat. Asdisis (talk) 23:50, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Calling someone irrational and unreasonable is a plain old garden-variety person attack. The first law of WP:CIVIL is to comment on content not on contributors - you most certainly were not referring to edits, were you? the panda ₯’ 12:27, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Since you refused to explain, I have to reject your allegations as unfounded. Asdisis (talk) 12:01, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Refused? Screw that, I have a life and family that is more important than Misplaced Pages. Hell, I didn't even know that you had replied. There is no time limit on Misplaced Pages - we all live in different times zones, you know. the panda ₯’ 12:27, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Threat of a block

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An IP editor, 100.1.172.140, told me through an edit summary (this one), "You touch this update one more time and I'll have you blocked.. The updates are fully acceptable.", and on his talk: "You touch those updates one more time I'm yanking funding. The links work..". I reverted his addition because he used Misplaced Pages in three of his five incorrectly formatted sources. I take the threat as especially hostile because of the manner he said it in. I cite WP:Harassment, "Usually (but not always) the purpose is to make the target feel threatened or intimidated, and the outcome may be to make editing Misplaced Pages unpleasant for the target, to undermine them, to frighten them, or to discourage them from editing entirely. and "Threatening another person is considered harassment." MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb) 18:32, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Left a message in the IPs talk page, hopefully they'll rent a clue. §FreeRangeFrog 18:41, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

It's an empty threat, and inappropriately hostile. I've left them a note. Please avoid being drawn into an edit war yourself, something that's easy to do when one encounters this sort of baiting. Acroterion (talk) 18:43, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Max Bennett (actor)

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Looks like the subject is part of a targeted campaign. The comments are getting into WP:BLP territory. --NeilN 20:40, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

AfD speedy closed (no prejudice against re-nomination by a legitimate editor, if there are any reasons for such.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:17, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. --NeilN 21:19, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

The article itself appears to be a perennial target of throwaway sock accounts, so if a few people could add it to their watch-lists, that would be great. -- Diannaa (talk) 21:56, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I know we don't fish, but there might be a legitimate reason here for a CU to match the sock accounts to a master. --Kinu /_c 22:42, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I will take a close look at this in the morning. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:13, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• Not to mention username abuse (see the various editor"s" who have edited the article and !voted). Softlavender (talk) 00:29, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Update: Unsuprisingly,  Confirmed via checkuser as to all suspected accounts. All socks already indeffed by Dennis Brown. I've upped the sockmaster's block to indefinite also as this is a single-purpose attack account (plus, in context, the username is impermissible). I've also indeffed a couple of attack accounts that show up earlier in the article history. Fut. Perf. has semiprotected the article and I'd ask that people watchlist it. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:03, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Egregious section heading at Talk:Earthquake prediction

  I would like admin assistance regarding a section heading at Talk:Earthquake prediction (the one that starts with "NOTICE:") that I feel violates the Talkpage guidelines in that it addresses me directly and in a non-neutral manner (as well as misstating a comment of mine), and is part of a pattern that constitutes WP:harassment.

  The offending section was added 14 May by User:Elvey, with an additional comment from 64.134.48.248 (a persistent editor using various IP addresses from Wichita). After a month with no discussion I archived it, which was immediately restored from 64.134.150.40 with the edit summary "Useful information that doesn't need to be archived so quickly." After another month of no discussion I removed it again on 17 July, which User:Joe Bodacious reverted with the comment "We don't need to archive every two months, and in this case, it looks self-serving"; another deletion/reversion followed on 18 and 19 July.

  All this stems from various content disputes which these editors took to ANI in a failed attempt to have me topic banned, and constitutes a pattern of repeated behavior intentionally targeting me, having no purpose other than to annoy and harass me, either directly, or by trolling for others to do so.

  The relief I seek is to have an admin remove this section from Talk:Earthquake prediction and its archive, and editors Elvey, Joe Bodacious, and the one from Wichita (various IP addresses) admonished for harassment and uncivil behavior. I do not ask that the page history be suppressed (in order to preserve the record of these editors' pattern of edits), but perhaps the edit summaries could be revised to simply "NOTICE: ...". ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:03, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

User:Elvey has been notified, and notices placed at User_talk:64.134.48.248 and User_talk:64.134.150.40. User:Joe Bodacious has been notified, but might not be able to respond immediately as he has been blocked as a sock puppet. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:27, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Not a good section heading but the criteria for using rev/del don't cover this (nor can we actually change edit summaries, although of course we can hide them). Dougweller (talk) 08:36, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

  Isn't WP:TALKNEW pretty clear? Under "Keep headings neutral" (emphasis in the original) it plainly says: "Don't address other users in a heading". Also, "Never use headings to attack other users", which is deemed not simply "not good", but "especially egregious". (I have detailed all this at Talk:Earthquake prediction#Discussion of contested removal of section with non-neutral heading beginning "NOTICE".)

  Deletion from the active talk pages would ordinarily follow archival. Joe's view seems to be that this attack should be permanently memorialized. Shouldn't this sockpuppet's reversions also be "struck out"? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:41, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Odd behavior by GinAndChronically

Would anyone be willing to look into the recent edits by GinAndChronically (talk · contribs)? The issue that has come up lately is that they are adding "ewns" to right before "corner" in an article, such as this edit, where they used the summary, "a two street intersection has four corners, which corner e w n s ? otherwise the building is in the middle of the intersection." Another example of that is this edit, where they change a page for a town located in the northeastern corner of Connecticut to say, "Windham County is a county located in the upper most northeastern section of the U.S. state of Connecticut." To say that these don't add confusion would be an understatement, as I reverted all of the examples in their recent edits, along with Pi.1415926535. Furthermore, we have both left messages on his talk page explaining that this behavior does not work, and we have been met with responses that have edit summaries such as boneheads. I really didn't want to have to bring them here, but I was wondering if someone would be able to look into this, as they clearly aren't getting the point that we are trying to help them, and are instead getting borderline insults as responses back. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 03:37, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

To add to that: they're prone to respond to any criticism with lengthy rants as seen on their talk page, and have no interest in engaging in actual discussion. They reverting one of the edits that ktr reversed, but their other editing since has been largely uncontroversial spelling corrections with incorrect edit summaries. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 03:57, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I should also add that many recent edits are filled with false edit summaries, but they are all for spelling corrections. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 04:14, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

(ec) They've also made a series of edits with the summary "ambiguous colloquialism", but some of these are either effectively null edits or outright wrong . It appears the goal is to correct misspellings of individual (see ), but in a very confusing and ineffective way. This feels like a competence issue more than anything but GinAndChronically needs to do better. Mackensen (talk) 04:17, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

More on this; two of the edits were to add the {{sic}} template to blockquoted sources: . I checked the sources and the error was in the transcription--the source spelled the word correctly. These edits (which I changed) took a bad situation (transcription error) and made it worse by making it less likely it'll be caught and corrected. Mackensen (talk) 04:27, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it is a competence issue. The editor reads everything literally and edits accordingly. Without mentorship, this will not end well. The user cannot handle any ambiguity or the existence of multiple interpretations. Viriditas (talk) 04:45, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

So, what do people think should be done here, as I don't think them continuing to attack us will be very productive, and it seems like there is agreement for something to be done. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 15:50, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I definitely feel like a WP:CIR block could be justified here. It seems as if the pattern is: 1) GinAndChronically introduces a bizarre batch of edits with a similar pattern of changes and/or edit summaries; 2) GinAndChronically gets asked "why?" and is asked to stop on their talk page; 3) GinAndChronically goes on a tangential rant about it; 4) GinAndChronically eventually abandons that line of editing and returns to step 1, only for the cycle to begin again. Repeatedly having to clean up such generally unconstructive mass edits does not seem like an efficient use of other editors' resources. Given the most recent batches of edits, I'm not certain what benefit mentorship could have here, but if someone wishes to make that effort, feel free. --Kinu /_c 17:55, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Kevin--What is the problem here? I have every right to advocate my position on my TP and to provide an edit summary that best supplies me with that ability to isolate it from all other edit summaries that I have made--the several thousand. As far as I know these summaries have not used racially derogatory or cuss words and there is no WP policy or guideline that should be applicable toward what has been used to warrant a change in what I have done with the matter of edit summaries. To use my edit summaries as an example of how someone perceived themselves as being defied is absolute rubbish. Has anyone particularly the complainant bothered to look at the time stamps about what has been brought to attention and when that activity stopped. Or is the real question or an additional question at hand that the complainant is perceiving that he is being defied by my holding to the opinion expressed on my TP that if WP intends to have articles of lasting value then the words and expressions used have to accurately describe the subject. The use of colloquialism and inaccurate words are not of long lasting value. People are using the word corner as a colloquialism for the word intersection. One is no more than the other. They are not interchangeable especially when used as a description in a legal proceeding. Oh, well this is not a legal proceeding but if it were correct it certainly could be otherwise it is inaccurate. Plain and simple. What do we know today that can be provided so that later it does not become an issue? What is there today will not always be there tomorrow and who is here to day will not always be around for tomorrow so what fault is there on insisting that if WP wants to include information that can be found out today of long lasting value then what purpose does a colloquialism serve or even a misapplied word.

As for the use of ewns? All that was said was that it should not be used; not that if it were applicable in some manner that there was a way for it be integrated into WP articles but essentially that it was irrelevant. In what way is it irrelevant in an attempt to clarify and make proper those words and phases already in use? Again, a corner is not an intersection and an intersection is not a corner. That is not a different interpretation but a mistake.

As for those edit summaries concerning spelling, did anyone bother to point out at the time that there was an inconsistency? Or was it someone's perception that someone was being defiant? If that is the case then that is something on which the complainant has to work because someone has jumped to an inaccurate perception? First I am told to leave things be because longevity is sufficient for consensus. Absolutely no one at WP is going to acknowledge that a mistake will ever be accepted as consensus.

If someone characterizes my response as a rant then I have absolutely nothing more to discuss with that person because they have come to a conclusion that seeks to achieve absolutely no understanding that I believe is suppose to be part of the WP experience. The rant characterization is similar to the reaction of a dog that turns its back on you. That is the indication of a dog that you do not exist. If I do not exist then there is no reason to respond.GinAndChronically (talk) 19:34, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Whether you use cuss words or not is irrelevant ... WP:CONSENSUS is the primary law that you agreed to on Misplaced Pages, yet you state you don't follow it. WP:EDITSUMMARY - something else you agreed to, but you don't seem to like it much either. You don't necessarily have a "right" to do anything - you have the ability to post sourced changes on an article talkpage, and see if you get consensus. You're also making sweeping generalizations about the concept of a "corner" that will not bear fruition according to the laws of many jurisdictions - but that's a content issue you'll have to take up on articles the panda ₯’ 19:47, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Edits like this give the impression that you don't review your edits for accuracy before saving them. That's unhelpful. Mackensen (talk) 21:02, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I hope this is not to develop into a tit-for-tat? With the logic of Mackensen then presenting an example where an edit was made and then revert by myself would conceal the issue of reviewing edits? Impressions are not the best way by which to make decisions because they can be what persists in one's mind influenced by their weltanschauung.

At least DangerousPanda suggested that my opinion of "corner" is not universal but did not rule out that it was non-existent because "many" is not "most" that could be a majority and then there is "all" which would be universal. He then goes on to support this with the intended use of the article talk page. I never said that ALL uses of corner were instead of intersection. I said that people are using corner for intersection. Yes there is a concept of "corner"; there is also the place name of "corner". If "Jackson's Corner" was the subject then it might sound rather repetitive to say that it is at the corner of X and Y Streets unless it was on all or most corners at X and Y Streets.

But what I see coming about is not my opinion about the use of corner instead of intersection but whether I am challenging WP authority. I repeat, has any one reviewed the stamp times of when I was notified and when it stopped? If what is being pursued is the perception of challenging authority; of so then someone is barking up the wrong tree.

I will also say that I will persist in my opinion that longevity is not a sufficient bases by which to establish consensus since every thing regularly in every article is not reviewed for accuracy.GinAndChronically (talk) 04:59, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Would anyone be able to take action on this, as there is no reason that this needs to continue on longer than it already is. Gin, we are not challenging your challenge of authority as you think you are doing here. What we are challenging is the fact that you are introducing confusing information into an article in a style which has not been used before, and would require an RFC to implement. I have no problem challenging authority, but the way in which you are doing it clearly shows that you are unable to listen to others when we ask politely for you to stop. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 13:24, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Blocked

Given the poor-quality edit shown by Mackensen above, but also based on the entirety of the conversation herein, I am of the belief that GinAndChronically does not care about the quality of their work, but rather the quantity. Seeing as how the most recent batch of mass changes by this user included such egregiously awful edits as this and this, I'm further convinced of this. A statement made by this editor on their talk page is particularly telling: "So, no time lost; no effort gone unrewarded." Actually, plenty of time has been lost in cleaning up after GinAndChronically; every series of mass edits ultimately seems to result in some cleanup that must be undertaken by other editors. This is a clear case of failing to get the point, and thus I am blocking GinAndChronically indefinitely for persistent disruptive editing and WP:CIR, at least until a time that we as a community can be sufficiently convinced that future edits will not be similarly disruptive. --Kinu /_c 17:11, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

And, to wit, this edit summary appears to sum up this editor's attitude toward editing in a collegial environment. --Kinu /_c 00:02, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Disruptive edits by ip:175.138.232.130

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175.138.232.130 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been constantly removing a section of the GeForce article, and being rude and un-cooperative about it. I have tried to get him/her to discuss the issue at Talk:GeForce#Nouveau driver, but had no success. There have also been numerous warnings on his/her talk page. Lonaowna (talk) 09:21, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• Blocked for a week for persistent disruptive editing. Thank you for reporting, Lonaowna. Bishonen | talk 09:27, 27 July 2014 (UTC).

Sockpuppet

Now there is a similar ip (175.138.235.107 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)) making the exact same edit. Lonaowna (talk) 08:15, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Range 175.138.232.0/22 blocked for one week. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:20, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Group vandalism on article

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Not sure if this is the right place, but the article Peter Skrzynecki is currently being heavily vandalised by a group of IPs and vandal accounts. Admin intervention including blocking the (probable) socks and protecting the page would be welcome. Satellizer (´ ･ ω ･ `) 11:34, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Nuisance behaviour from Gringoladomenega

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Could an admin please investigate the intent and purpose of Gringoladomenega. I made an issue last week about him purposefully following me around on WP deliberately making unnecessary and pointless reverts and edits to my contributions without explaining why, and today, after a period of being away he is, within seconds/minutes instigating an edit war despite previous being warned. Thanks. Panhead2014 (talk) Panhead2014 (talk) 14:12, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• Bleeeeeh. Well, Panhead wasn't bothered for "a period" by this editor because they were blocked for edit warring (no fewer than five admins agree on that)--let's get that straight first. Having said that,

So I deserve anther block because I've improved the language used in an article, yet Gringoladomenega, who despite being warned previously about edit warring, only deserves a warning when it is clear what his motivation is. There's a very good reason, Drmies, why I have asked before for other admin to get involved in this ongoing issue. Panhead2014 (talk) 15:31, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

@Drmies: Maybe Panhead is right, and at least for purposes at ANI, you should let another admin take a look at this. MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb) 15:35, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• Apparently neither MrScorch6200 (never heard of this person) nor Panhead can read. Kindly try to read my comments more carefully. Drmies (talk) 15:49, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

No need to be rude and obnoxious, Drmies. Panhead2014 (talk) 16:15, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• Alright then, Mr. Panhead. I said, above, "it could be argued that etc." I did not argue that you should be blocked, nor did I call for a block. Neither you nor MrScorch seemed to grasp that. But I can argue that, and now I will: I don't feel very forgiving anymore.

  Given your continued battleground attitude, demonstrated here (not just in your comment but in the very ANI thread you started based on one or two edits by another editor), on your talk page, and elsewhere (Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Football, for one), I think that you are incapable of working in a collaborative environment. You were involved in lengthy and silly edit wars (Míchel Salgado, Athletic Bilbao, Sergio Busquets) where no one looked good, but it is important to realize that your two or three opponents by sheer numbers can be said to have represented a consensus, and that one of them, MYS77, apologized for getting into it in the first place. You drove one editor into retirement, and maybe Always Learning was a bit of a diva, but he was a really nice and helpful diva.

  In sum, your behavior is simply disruptive, rude, and uncollaborative. The two (denied) unblock requests indicate that you never got it, and I see no reason to think that you get it now. In addition, I wonder if the other admins who have looked into your case (Bagumba, Jpgordon, Randykitty, and Dennis Brown--yes, four admins) think that your post-block behavior isn't a good enough indication that maybe one week was too short to begin with. Drmies (talk) 16:45, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I served the block and accept my behaviour, whilst intentionally good, was in violation of WP's rules. That is in the past now. Wholly unfair though to blame me for Always Learning choosing to leave because he acted brattish and couldn't get what he wanted, even after contacting others to support his "fight", but not unexpected from yourself, Drmies. I believe I have made in clear on a few occasions that I really have little interest in dealing with you given the relationship you have with certain others, so will not respond to you, or your provocative remarks anymore. Even other contributors think you should cease your involvement. Regards. Panhead2014 (talk) 16:56, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Admins needed for editor Achinoam

I was first alerted to this editors fringe POV on the Jewish Bolshevism article, with this edit. Using the IHR for a source for anything is a red flag, but most especially in an article concerning Jewish people. Then looking at the editors other contribs, it is painfully obvious they are here to disrupt the project and insert antisemitism into articles. Revert as vandalism and block, imo. Dave Dial (talk) 15:17, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Didn't notice it was a fringe website, ran a search on Misplaced Pages and saw it was quoted 49 times and wrongly assumed it was a good source. And to the admins, I will make slower edits and will research the validity of internet sources more in depth. Achinoam (talk) 15:33, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• I've removed a word from this section title: let us not jump to conclusions. I see some edits on David Duke that may be valid, and some that may not be--I'm interested in the opinion of Dougweller. For me, this is not an open and shut case, not yet, not without more diffs that clearly indicate an agenda of sorts. Drmies (talk) 15:54, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
• Oh, I am sure that is the case. Like your addition of Socialist who embrace pedophilia, or your creation of a page about a unknown Rabbi who was supposedly a pedo. Or your 'first edits' here removing negative info from Stormfront and David Duke articles, and putting in negative information into BLP articles of Jewish people. Or removing positive info about them. I am sure you are correct, you are just a new user who didn't know the IHR was an antisemitic organization. In any case, perhaps I've jumped the gun, or perhaps not. In any case, there is little doubt to me that you are here from Stormfront to disrupt the project. But I won't comment here anymore and let others decide. Dave Dial (talk) 16:02, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I think his deleted contributions are telling. I deleted the page as an attack page, but given the presence of sources I was not sure how to proceed. It looked like it may have been based on a real incident but it was so badly written and made such serious accusations I G10'd it.

There does seem to be a theme going on here. I do think it is soap boxing and disruptive. Chillum 16:10, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I didn't make accusations. He's been sentenced to 24 years in prison. As can be seen in at least one of the sources. G10 wasn't a valid deletion criteria. Achinoam (talk) 16:54, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps. There is always WP:DRV. It was poorly written and given the content if it does need an article it needs to be well written, so I deleted it. Chillum 16:57, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Sure, I'm not the best writer. I don't mind the article deletion. But that's very different from inserting libel in the article, which I didn't if you actually looked at the sources. And is the subject of this inquisition tribunal. Achinoam (talk) 17:56, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

You beat me to this Drmies, thanks for asking. I'm concerned. As Drmies suggests, a couple of his edits at David Duke are dubious, specifically the removal of 'anti-Semitic' evidently on the basis that the document had been shown to be incorrect on a different issue, and after I reinstated it, removing it again with an edit summary "I removed it because the source published incorrect information on the subject. By WP:RSUW, "For sources of very low reliability, due weight may be no mention at all." This edit removed a description (white supremacist) on the basis that it wasn't on the page of the National Alliance (United States) - fair enough, but like other edits at David Duke directional, removing critical material - why not replace the description with something actually in the article (which I did)? He's edited quite a few articles an American rabbis - to be specific, articles in Category:American Conservative rabbis basically removing material for various reasons which at first sight seem legitimate. One entry in this category is Shaye J. D. Cohen whom he prod'd:"= Articles relies solely on primary sources. Can't find anything about subject on Google Scholar other than self-published articles". Take a look at the article. Cohen is "Littauer Professor of Hebrew Literature and Philosophy in the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations of Harvard University." with various other prestigious visiting lectureships, etc. Yes, I imagine Google will find a lot of material he published, but in reliable academic sources. I cannot view this as a good faith prod. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 16:25, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I actually de-PRODded that one. A named professorship (at Harvard no less) is a clean pass of WP:ACADEMIC.--Randykitty (talk) 19:12, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

PS: I also dePRODded David G. Dalin, which had been kept at an earlier AFD. --Randykitty (talk) 14:49, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• • Dave, their edit to the Stormfront article was valid--what they removed was vague and unsourced. Chillum, good point: that was one distasteful little article. The edit to Cultural Marxism was total crap. Drmies (talk) 16:30, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Was my addition to cultural Marxism really that bad? My text: "Many cultural Marxist concepts became dominant; others, such as pedophile liberation, have fallen out of favor." Compare to the source blogs.telegraph.co.uk: "Although many of these ideas died from their own absurdity (paedophile liberation is not too popular these days) many have come to be influential or even dominant." The source blogs.telegraph.co.uk is quoted over 250 times in Misplaced Pages and the Telegraph is a mainstream newspaper. WP:USERG says "Some news outlets host interactive columns they call blogs, and these may be acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professional journalists or are professionals in the field on which they write and the blog is subject to the news outlet's full editorial control." I think the source I provided meets this definition. Achinoam (talk) 17:21, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes it was pretty bad. Blogs are not generally considered reliable sources, particularly for controversial claims. Saying that the source is used elsewhere does not make it valid. Your edits are showing a clear point of view that you are trying to represent on Misplaced Pages, we are not a place for soap boxing. Chillum 17:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

A point of view about what exactly? That's like the only article about marxism that I edited. And it's not just a blog, but a blog for the Telegrapher which is a BIG newspaper. WP:USERG "Some news outlets host interactive columns they call blogs, and these may be acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professional journalists or are professionals in the field on which they write and the blog is subject to the news outlet's full editorial control." Maybe you don't agree but at least I made an effort to research the source's validity. Achinoam (talk) 17:36, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• There's a bit more to it. It's not really the blogginess--it's that a. the information you added (or reinserted) to the article) is very poorly written and b. it's an editorial, not an actual "factual" article that you're citing. But worse, what's being uttered as an obviously tongue-in-cheek comment is inserted into our article as if it were really a news item that Marxism doesn't support the sexual abuse of children. Drmies (talk) 18:13, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
• First, you source was referring to "The ideas of Antonio Gramsci and Herbert Marcuse," while your edit refers to these ideas as "cultural Marxist concepts." While possibly Gramsci and Marcuse held these views, it is wrong to consider them as concepts of cultural Marxism unless cultural Marxists generally held them. See also "News organizations": "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces...are rarely reliable for statements of fact." This is clearly an opinion piece, not a news story. Note the title, "Criticising Cultural Marxism doesn't make you Anders Breivik". It's not like he was reporting statements Gramsci and Marcuse had just made. I cannot find any mention of this in reliable sources.

It seems that this editor is looking for bad things to add to articles about Jews and the Left, while trying to remove bad things in articles about the far right, and has no concern about policy. I notice he has quoted policy and guidelines often right from his first edit where he or she referred to "WP:PEACOCK" as a reason to remove a word. I do not predict any improvement and therefore support an indefinite block.

TFD (talk) 18:28, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Since you asked it appears to me that your POV is pro anti-semitic organisations and you seem to be focused on pointing out a connection between being jewish and being a pedophile. Do you really have to ask me what your point of view is? It seems clear to me and it is fringe.

I am going to leave this for another admin to decide on. Chillum 18:06, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not sure what to make of it myself. It might be that he is really trying to just edit and simply can't edit without showing his biases, seemingly anti-jewish, anti-left. The problem is, our policies on neutrality and competency don't differentiate between intentional and unintentional, only the result matters. I've looked, but I don't have a simple answer. The only thing that is certain is that we can't have these kinds of edits. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:30, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
• Whether intentional or not, the editor shows a strong tendency towards POV editing and edits a narrow range of articles. My inclination is that the pattern is no accident. Niteshift36 (talk) 22:55, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

It's also interesting to note that Achinoam displays a surprising familiarity with WP processes despite having such a new account - the first edit under this name was in June. Their first two edits cite a policy in the edit summary, and many more use common shorthand like 'OR', which is not the sort of behaviour one usually sees from an editor less than two months into their career. Are we certain that this isn't an experienced editor with a second account? Euchrid (talk) 04:33, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• There is an odor of a sock, isn't there? Niteshift36 (talk) 20:07, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

And a couple of links I'm not familiar with after all these years. So yes, it seems likely he is. Topic ban? Dougweller (talk) 05:00, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't mind a topic ban. I disagree that I have a PoV, however I can understand that my edits gave that impression. Look at my history: I have changed my topics since I was notified of this. I can cooperate.Achinoam (talk) 13:11, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Unsourced edits from 82.35.64.69

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82.35.64.69 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

The above ip address keeps adding unsourced material to articles about years in British television, often without fully explaining their significance. An example might be "Gray O'Brien is to leave Coronation Street later this year", which doesn't fully explain who he is or why we need to know he's leaving the series. I started off looking for sources for this stuff, and offering some gentle guidance, but it's going on for a while now, and is getting a bit monotonous. Often the information is inaccurate in some way, and I've asked repeatedly if they could provide sources for the entries (they're obviously finding it from somewhere), but never get a response other than to see the appearance of another random entry later the same day or the next day. I've resorted to issuing user warnings for unsourced editing after several attempts to communicate with this user, and deleting the material. I've also discussed this matter with another user through {{helpme}} as I wasn't sure where to take it. Sadly we've reached level 4 now without success, so I'm bringing the matter here. This is Paul (talk) 17:08, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like vandalism, if they've been warned 4 times take them here as its usualy a quicker turnaround. Amortias (T)(C) 17:13, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Done, and blocked by Chillum. This is Paul (talk) 17:23, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Violation of WP:LISTPEOPLE at List of surviving silent film actors

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Despite ongoing discussion on the talk page which has not satisfactorily resolved the issue, Clibenfoart has persisted in adding content which violates WP:LISTPEOPLE (as clearly stated on the talkpage) of List of surviving silent film actors. DerbyCountyinNZ 17:55, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Have you considered using the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard? MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb) 18:22, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

My opinion and the opinion of user Oscar Lake (if I understood him right) was that we should include Shep Houghton. This is a List of surviving silent film actors and Shep Houghton played in a silent film and he is still alive, so he belongs clearly into this list. It's certainly not in the sense of wikipedia and it's readers if we abstract some living persons from the list and to pretend that they aren't still alive or haven't played in a silent film, just because they are may not notable enough for a wikipedia article. Rules are not bad and we should follow them in the most cases, but we don't need to follow them, when human logic and mind tells us to do something else. --Clibenfoart (talk) 18:44, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Shep Houghton is the very definition of a BLP1E-case as described in WP:LISTPEOPLE. Sources only speak of him in relation to a single aspect of his life, where he wasn't considered to have made a significant contribution in public life beyond it. This shows that he would only be considered to have any notability as a member of this kind of list (surviving silent film actors), but that through this focus, he is a significant and noted example by good reliable sources. Removing him is actually against the guideline, not a violation of it. He probably doesn't rate an article, but since this is his one "claim to fame" according to sources, he meets the guideline requirements.__ E L A Q U E A T E 18:53, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Reminder: This is not the proper venue to continue discussing inclusion details like that. This really isn't a conduct dispute, it's more content, so not much can be done here. DRN would a good place to go if this can't be resolved on the talk page. If you guys are done here, I'd like to have this closed. It's really not that helpful to your dispute. MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb) 19:09, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

User talk:94.196.246.0

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IP 94.196.246.0 got blocked and now trolling on talk page since someone left that possibility to troll. --84.248.189.125 (talk) 18:47, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Probably needs Rev-del looking at the edit before he blanked his own stupidity. Amortias (T)(C) 18:51, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry if I did something wrong but I just wanted to hide those harassment texts. P.S. What does "Rev-dev" mean? --84.248.189.125 (talk) 18:54, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

(ec x3) Just don't harass and personally attack other editors again, no one feels like dealing with that crap all the time. MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb) 19:00, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Eeh... so did I something wrong when I posted here? --84.248.189.125 (talk) 19:15, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Note: I was letting him do it for a while since it stops him doing anything worse. Admins can see the IP's deleted edits, and those made earlier by Never the twain shall meet (talk · contribs) and Arounddance (talk · contribs).  —SMALLJIM  18:56, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Talkpage access removed and offending edits deleted, since they appear to have stopped for the time being. I've also hard-blocked the IP (prevented logged-in editors from editing from that IP) to flush out any other named accounts, or at least to prevent their editing. Acroterion (talk) 19:04, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Requesting closure

Can an uninvolved editor close this, please? Thanks. MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb) 06:17, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

It seems to have done that by itself. There is no need to wrap a stifle box around every discussion, only the ones that drag on interminably. -- zzuuzz 06:42, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

There's been plenty of shorter discussions that have been archived/closed with {{archive top/bottom}} no matter the topic. Just take a look at the archives. I guess it's just personal style. Regards, MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb) 06:58, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I thought that the archive box was picked up by the archive bot so that rather than waiting for a set period it would archive on the next run. Although I may be remembering the functionality in Miszabot before that was stopped. Blackmane (talk) 09:33, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Unsourced changes by Airmantx

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Airmantx (talk · contribs) has made several unsourced changes to Misplaced Pages articles and has also been warned several times, but will not stop. These are some of the articles affected by their disruptive editing:

• Shades of Cool (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Lorde (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Lana Del Rey (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Lana Del Rey discography (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Royals (song) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Ultraviolence (album) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Littlecarmen (talk) 19:40, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Probably quicker to take this to WP:AIV turn arounds are a bit quicker as they tend to be a yes/no response. Amortias (T)(C) 19:44, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Okay, thank you, I did. Littlecarmen (talk) 21:14, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Edit war at T. B. Joshua

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Someone want to do something about the regular reverts? I don't know if either has done 3 in 24 hours, but if you go beyond that... John Carter (talk) 20:53, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

 Deferred to to AN3. MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb) 21:20, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• I see that Randykitty is already on the case. Word to the wise: always start with a templated warning for edit warring (or 3RR)--it can make a lot of things a lot easier. Drmies (talk) 21:33, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

User talk:82.123.63.47

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Disruptive editor . I am not sure if this is a threat or not. An request was made to have the dispute taken to the talkpage which looks like it was ignored. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:16, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I've already reported him to WP:AIV. I've said it before, but there is no need to open an ANI report for obvious IP vandalism. Just take it to WP:AIV. RGloucester — ☎ 21:21, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I would like to think it is not as clear cut though, I do not think the IP knows that we are only reporting what the WP:RS say. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:23, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Broad media cover in WP:LEAK, Expendables 3

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I would want an Admin desicion on this subject of adding a Leak to an article.

Admins don't get involved in content. This is a discussion for the article talkpage the panda ₯’ 23:58, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

User:JajaDSeries (again)

The user keeps defying their block by removing the block notice at their talk page and posting there much the same information they have been blocked for (, ). I've notified the blocking admin but they may not be available to respond.--Jetstreamer  10:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Septate breaking his newly imposed editing restrictions

Septate (talk · contribs) is under a Community imposed editing restriction placed indefinitely for all edits which are related to religion:

1) 1 revert per 48 hours per article (see WP:1RR for more information).

2) Before he makes any content revert (including vandalism), he is required to first open a discussion on the article talk page, to provide an explanation of his intended revert and then wait 6 hours before actually making it to allow time for discussion.

Despite this he continues to revert at various articles dealing with the subject of Wahhabism. Eg , (and in this case the article is also a religious one, Mawlid, a religious celebration) and . Perhaps the topic ban would have been a better idea. Dougweller (talk) 12:38, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

That was so quick. I knew that he will break those restrictions, I agree that topic ban is probably going to help. Bladesmulti (talk) 13:46, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

@Dougweller. You are seriously wrong and mistaken. Regarding , I made that edit after a simple discussion. See User talk:Vanamonde93#Thanks!. The problem was regarding the reliability of Apologetics.com, which was resolved when I provided BBC source. Although I am obliged to open the discussion on talk page per imposed ban on me, I don't find it useful because the dispute was resolved. When it comes to , I don't know why you mentioned it here. It is completely irrelevant. I have made no reverts neither another user has reverted my edits calling them vandalism or something else. Interestingly the dispute was not between me but two other users. My edits just came in the middle of there reverts of each others edits. See edit history of Mawlid. The same goes with . I have made a simple edit. If some one reverts my edit then I am obliged to open a discussion talk page. Seriously, this is complete wastage of time.Septate (talk) 14:12, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Furthermore, if I break the rule, I would prefer to get blocked for 2 day or week instead of topic banned.Septate (talk) 14:25, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

@Septate: WTF? On Mawlid you reverted this edit by another user by making this edit. That's a revert of the change from Wahhabist to Salafist. Your restriction is crystal clear: "Before he makes any content revert (including vandalism), he is required to first open a discussion on the article talk page, to provide an explanation of his intended revert and then wait 6 hours before actually making it to allow time for discussion." Also, on Al-Qaeda it is completely irrelevant that "Although I am obliged to open the discussion on talk page per imposed ban on me, I don't find it useful because the dispute was resolved". It's not you that gets to choose whether it's "useful" in any particular instance. On the ISIS article, I am puzzled by what Doug says there. Perhaps he could elaborate. But leaving that aside there are two clear breaches just a couple of days into the restriction - with justifications like you "didn't find it useful". It's definitely time for a topic ban. DeCausa (talk) 14:46, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I don't see how a discussion on a user talk page with an editor other than the one you reverted matters here. Furthermore, the discussion was about reliability of sourcing, yet User:Gazkthul's edit summary clearly indicated an objection based on POV issues NOT RS issues. If you had reverted User:Vanamonde93, based on the agreement to the edit, I can see us not acting to enforce the letter of the restriction, but that isn't who you reverted. There is no discussion on the article talk page, and you unambiguously reverted another editor. How is that not a violation of your editing restrictions? Monty₈₄₅ 14:52, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

@Dougweller: While I agree with you on the first article, with regard to Mawlid, is there a clear edit that was reverted? Given the restriction was specifically on reverts, if something was only added to an article, in the absence of a recent removal for it to be reverting, I don't think it is obvious that the addition counts as a revert. Monty₈₄₅ 15:02, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

@Monty845: as I pointed out above, on Mawlid an editor changed Wahhabist to Salafist and two hours later Septate changed it back. That's a revert and he should have gone to the talk page and waited 6 hours before he did the revert. DeCausa (talk) 15:09, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I follow now, I listed the wrong article in my above comment, but now clearly see the violations on both articles. Monty₈₄₅ 15:10, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Apologies for not making clear the problem at ISIS. P123ct1 "Removed "Wahhabist" - reliable sources do not say ISIS is Wahhabist (see Talk page discussion)" 2 days ago. Septate restored it today, ie reverted the revert.. As with the others, no discussion on the talk page first. His comment that following his restrictions is a waste of time suggests we aren't getting very far with this attempt at leniency. Dougweller (talk) 15:04, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm in agreement on both cases then. Afaik, we would need a new discussion to topic ban, so I think that just leaves a block, perhaps with an offer of a topic ban as an unblock condition? Monty₈₄₅ 15:10, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Topic ban proposal

(Outside opinion) I wasn't involved in the last discussion but followed it as is my wont. I believe this is just about the fastest I've ever seen anyone breach a community sanction and coupled with the attempt to wikilawyer around it, I'm going to boldly throw a proposal out there.

Septate is hereby topic banned from all articles related to religion broadly construed for a period of no less than 6 months. Violations of the topic ban will be met with extension of the topic ban or escalating blocks.

Blackmane (talk) 15:08, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• Support. It's not only the rapid and blatant breach but also the bare-faced claims that he hasn't breached the restriction. He has a history of deceptive edit summaries to cover up his edits - which he's previously got a 48 hour block. His attitude here is consistent with that. DeCausa (talk) 15:14, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support I was considering just blocking for a month, and offering a topic ban as an unblock condition, but this is the cleaner way to do it. Not the standard construction of a topic ban, we usually go to a permanent ban, with the option to request it be removed in 6 months, but it may be interesting to see how this version works. Monty₈₄₅ 15:22, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support I agree this seems cleaner and going straight into a breach shows that the restrictions weren't sufficient. I'm pessimistic about it working though. Dougweller (talk) 15:26, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Forgot, we should let User:Callanecc know as he was the one who closed the earlier discussion and notified Septate about the editing restrictions. Dougweller (talk) 18:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• Against . Everyone here is just trying to find 'loopholes' to get me topic banned. User:DeCausa read this this edit again. Are you blind or just acting? I just made Wahhabis an alternative name for Salafis! Does this constitute revert? I have not removed Salafis at all. Interestingly I changed the word Salafites to Salafis. I have wasted a lot of time here. I was informed on previous ANI that if I break the the ban in future, I shall be blocked for one week instead of being topic banned. You can't go against it! I am going on a wiki break for one month. This should be enough for me.Septate (talk) 15:27, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

@Septate: Drop the pretence. Rameshnta909 took out the word Wahhabis. You reinstated the word Wahhabis. Just because you added other things as well doesn't stop it being a revert. I don't think for one minute that you think that either - you just thought you could get away with it. You also thought that if you get caught you could get off with a block for a few days. that's why you thought it was worth trying it. Well, no. DeCausa (talk) 15:42, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Septate, you joined wikipedia in Feb 2014, you have over 1700 edits but you have never contributed even 100 words to any article because all you do is flip and switch words in religion articles. How you managed it? Bladesmulti (talk) 15:47, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• Support The wikilawyering pushed me off the fence. Septate, you were plainly warned "you may be blocked to enforce them or further restricted (such as a ban) by the community." If the topic ban is enacted, it should state what will happen after 6 months. --NeilN 15:54, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, given how incorrigible Septate appears to be, I'm doubting the wisdom of the Tban just expiring at the 6 month point. Maybe the "traditional" approach is better. DeCausa (talk) 15:58, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

In the absence anyone stating anything to the contrary, I think the existing restrictions would remain in force indefinitely, so in the off chance the ban isn't violated, we go back to the current restrictions in 6 months. Monty₈₄₅ 16:02, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Ahhhhhh your explanations! DeCausa, Rameshnta909 removed Wahhabia because he thought that Salafis are more appropriate. Then I came and added Wahhabis along with Salafis because I thought that both are appropriate. Don't you get such a simple thing. This clearly shows that you are just trying to find loopholes!

Dear NielN, seriously speeking I was not conscious of those edits. I am not doubting the wisdom of the ban. I was not aware that so many users were waiting to see just a single little mistake. I just want to get last chance. Block me for one week. Furthermore I am going on a wiki break for one month. Septate (talk) 16:06, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Septate is going to separate from wikipedia? No issue. Little mistake and last chance? You said that dougweller is wasting time when it was proven that you are breaking editing restrictions. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:12, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Septate, if you think that's a "loop-hole" there's no hope of getting you to comply with the restriction. DeCausa (talk) 18:29, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

@Septate:, when a proposal calling for a topic ban is started you have already lost all room for negotiation. When any editor is sanctioned, there will be many eyes watching. Recalcitrance is punished quickly, acquiescence to the will of the community results in relaxation of sanctions in time. You were sanctioned, you violated the sanctions thus your restrictions will be escalated. I proposed 6 months in the hope that at the end of it you can return to editing in that area after some reflection. You're a relatively new user and I've got enough AGF left after reading through this thread and the previous one that I didn't go for the indefinite topic ban. You should see this as a wake up call. If you go on one month now, then I would propose an amendment to to the topic ban proposal to come into force upon your return. Blackmane (talk) 01:02, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• Support. The rapid breach of the restrictions shows that a topic ban from all articles related to religion is needed. I share Dougwellers pessimistic outlook. JimRenge (talk) 16:15, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• Support I've never seen this editor before, but the above evidence is unacceptable behaviour. Indeed, lest they get some idea of DIVA'ing, if they perform any additional reverts between now and when this discussion is closed, I'll block the panda ₯’ 16:26, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support Given the continued disruptive nature of the edits within the subject area. A topic ban seems more than warranted, especially given the flaunting of earlier restrictions placed. ♥ Solarra ♥ ߷ _{♀ 投稿 ♀} 17:28, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support -The violations of the ban are obvious and the Wikilawyering is clear. BMK (talk) 20:55, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - Every case is different, but the usual response to violating a topic ban is accelerating blocks. If there are multiple incidents, especially after being warned, then a lengthy block is in order, not just a broadened topic ban. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:24, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support Per BMK and Solarra. MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb) 21:35, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Insult and threat by TheAirplaneGuy

Please see

• TheAirplaneGuy reverted 6 edits by me in Malaysia Airlines. I would like to point out that at least two of my edits which he reverted (the removal of the incidents from the fleet table) do reflect the consensus on the talk page. He never tried to discuss the contents of these edits with me.
• I was and am willing to enter a discussion whether or where the information like when the first A380 of the airline went into the assembly phase should be (IMHO definitely not in the destinations section) with any person who starts a discussion with me regarding that, and I do accept when the consensus is against me.
• If another editor would point out in a civilized way that he thinks I should have sought consensus first for any of my edits, I would also be willing to consider and discuss that.
• TheAirplaneGuy insulted me on my talk page as having vandalized Misplaced Pages.
• TheAirplaneGuy gave me an only warning threatening I may be blocked from editing without further notice if I do such edits again. Is it approved by Misplaced Pages policy that TheAirplaneGuy gives me such an only warning without ever attempting to discuss the issue with me in a civilized way first?
• Unless this revert+insult+threat behaviour is accepted in Misplaced Pages, I do expect administrative sanctions against TheAirplaneGuy that make it clear to him that such behaviour is not accepted.

Thanks for your consideration CorrectKissinTime (talk) 13:08, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) @CorrectKissinTime: I see that the "A380 milestones" section TheAirplaneGuy re-added with their reversion has no sources at all. Apart from that, I cannot find the insult you refer to.--Jetstreamer  13:16, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Only warning: Vandalism on Malaysia Airlines. in the edit log and similar text on my talk page. Is calling another person a vandal not considered insulting? CorrectKissinTime (talk) 13:19, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

The main problem is anyway that he tries to enforce his revert through threatening with me getting blocked instead of starting a discussion. CorrectKissinTime (talk) 13:25, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) @CorrectKissinTime: S(he) has not openly insulted you, but I'm afraid WP:ATWV applies and {{Uw-vandalism4im}} has been used inappropriately.--Jetstreamer  13:32, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• I see zero attempts to try and discuss this "incident" with TheAirplaneGuy before coming here to ANI. Templates are "warnings" not "threats", calling something vandalism that isn't is uncivil...and those two things belong in the realm of user-to-user discussion as neither are blockable. Yes, I agree that 4im was improperly used in this case, but that's guidance and education not administrative blocks the panda ₯’ 16:52, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• Out of the void reverting of 6 edits and improperly threatening to get me blocked is not a punishable offence? I really have to scale down on the civility I've learned in real life - in the "user-to-user discussion" you want me to have with this guy I might not be much more friendly to him then he is to me (history has proven that Appeasement does not work). CorrectKissinTime (talk) 18:18, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• What the Panda says. No discussion--and, on the other hand, the warning was inappropriate. The edits themselves are a content matter that should be discussed on the talk page. Drmies (talk) 17:33, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
• (Non-administrator comment) Maybe the behaviour does not warrant admin action, but it is not the first time TheAirplaneGuy mislabelled edits as vandalism. See User talk:John.--Jetstreamer  17:59, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, we've already noted that ... Airplane hasn't edited since this was filed ... I look forward to their reply the panda ₯’ 20:09, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Mass tagging

User:99.238.74.216 (a/k/a User:99.247.1.157 a/k/a User:99.238.74.216) is continuing to mass add linkrot tags after being repeatedly warned and blocked. Also they claim to be a Master Editor, so there may be possible sockpuppetry at play as well. Could this be addressed as appropriate? Thank you. --‖ Ebyabe - Union of Opposites ‖ 15:29, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I've blocked this IP series before on the basis of their contemptuous responses to editors who are wondering why the IP is tagging every instance they can find of a bare URL with a linkrot template. The tagging is not inherently blockable, but their attitude toward those who wonder why there is no corresponding effort to actually fix the issue (the tool to do so is embedded in the template) is. Drive-by tagging with no effort to improve references exhibits an attitude of leaving it to others to actually fix the issue, and tagging single instances of bare urls in an otherwise well-referenced article seems unhelpful. As an aside, they seem to completely misunderstand the service award system and are using that as a basis for ignoring those they feel aren't worthy of notice. It's also possible that they once had a named account from about 2006, based on their claim. Overall, there appears to be a competency issue. Acroterion (talk) 18:15, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

This is a classic case of drive by editing with no thought of improving any of the articles. However, editors have also been subject to insulting remarks from these unregistered IP addresses. I believe that, like Acroterion's remarks above, there is a competency issue here. It really is time for this issue to be addressed in a positive manner in order to protect the encylopedia. David J Johnson (talk) 22:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Also, is there a tool to easily check for linkrot? If not, are we even sure that any of the links are rotten? With no helpful edit summary, or even a talk page comment indicating at least one or two of the links that are bad, it is rather difficult to be sure. --‖ Ebyabe - General Health ‖ 23:49, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Never mind. I misunderstood the purpose of the 'linkrot' tag. I actually went back and fixed a few of the articles. Several had only 1 bare reference. Easy to fix with Reflinks. Including, you know, the user who is tagging them. They do appear to be doing other editting and toning down on the drive-by tagging. Here's hoping. --‖ Ebyabe - General Health ‖ 00:57, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Returning sockpuppet harassing another editor

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Radek Sobkowski (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

The above user has placed this very abusive message three times on the talk page of User:Michał Sobkowski today. This is almost certainly a sock of the indefinitely blocked user Pacynka Sobkowskiego who has been harassing Michał Sobkowski via multiple socks for the last two years or more. For background see , , . Voceditenore (talk) 16:34, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• I've blocked it as a Vandalism Only Account, as the talk page messages were clearly intended to be disruption. Given that the target is an admin on another wiki, I'm don't know if there is sufficient evidence to conclusively link this new account to the old one, it could just be another person coming here with the same intent. Either way though, they are blocked. Monty₈₄₅ 16:45, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Request for administrator to evaluate the conduct of user

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I would like an administrator to evaluate the conduct of Scalhotrod in the last week. Specifically, from this point through today. Thanks. Lightbreather (talk) 19:44, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

To help narrow it down, I'm talking about his participation in this AN discussion (including subsections), his edits at: users' talk pages (including his and mine), which are obviously related to the AN discussion. Lightbreather (talk) 19:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• I agree that we don't need to be discussing this at ANI right now. Drmies (talk) 20:05, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

116.251.187.6

116.251.187.6 is vandalising random articles. http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/116.251.187.6 Moved issue to Administrator intervention against vandalism

Conduct unbecoming of an administrator

At a nearly settle 3RR discussion between Eric Corbett and Bloodofox, admin Scottywong shows up to stir the shit pot and an old rivelry with Eric. The edit warring had ended a couple hours before, so there was no immediate issue when Scotty begins tailing Eric's comments, trying to provoke a response. Please note that Scotty has indef blocked Eric before and this indef block was soon reverted to one month by another admin.

Scotty continued to add to the discussion, knowing full well that he was antagonizing a situation that was already under control, fortunately no one really took the bait. In this exchange, Scotty taunted Cassianto as being a new "pawn" of Eric's. He also made a personal attack against me with the comment "The corruption of your character is alarming sometimes, as is your lack of impartiality and sense of fairness." although I was there merely as a commenter. It is easier to just read the report. I requested that he retract it. and he declined.

It is fine to disagree about facts, but when an admin comes to an admin board WP:AN3, begins antagonizing the parties, then antagonizes the observers and personally attacks one (me), this admin needs to be stopped. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Dennis, perhaps you need to start taking some of your own advice. ‑Scottywong| confabulate _ 23:34, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely correct, and I said as much at AN3 before this section was started. Throwing out personal attacks against other editors purely due to ancient grudges is absolutely not acceptable from any editor, let alone an administrator; I am even more disturbed that Scottywong appears from his responses to Dennis at AN3 and his talk page to believe that this behaviour is completely acceptable. Black Kite (talk) 23:37, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I will accept any punishment that the community decides is necessary for the unimaginable atrocities I have committed today. I would like to point out, however, that Dennis was actually the first to inject personal attacks into the discussion. He kindly let me know that my lack of empathy is alarming to him, and I appreciated his honesty so much that I thought I would return the favor and let him know my honest thoughts about him. I considered his empathy comments deeply offensive, and since he didn't document them with diffs (which is apparently the rule now), I ask that any punishment applied to me also be applied to Dennis equally. ‑Scottywong| chat _ 23:44, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

When you say "block anyone that crosses 3RR without regard to why", that does lack empathy. The problem is you pushing Eric around like a bully, as you have the admin bit (and have blocked him before), trying to get him to go off on you so you could block again. You have ZERO interest in that case, you came to cause problems only. Then making personal attacks against someone who called you on it, questioning my character, when you were the one bullying. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:48, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry you feel that way, but unfortunately that makes no sense. If I blocked Eric for anything, I would be immediately hauled off to Arbcom by 3 dozen editors for taking administrative action in violation of WP:INVOLVED. And Eric is well aware of that. So, your claims that I'm trying to be a bully, and I'm trying to bait Eric into doing something so that I can block him are completely farcical. And I don't believe that strict enforcement of clearly-defined rules equates to a lack of empathy. ‑Scottywong| prattle _ 23:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

As far as what is more empathetic or not is perfectly fine for a separate discussion, there is logic on both sides, but that isn't the big issue. It is at last arguable that blind block is unempathetic, even if you say you can present evidence to the contrary. As for "if you blocked Eric", I'll be honest Scotty, I don't know if you would block him, or ask someone else to block him, or just wait for it to happen, but you knew (or should have known) that pushing his buttons could have caused more disruption and caused him to tell you to piss off, etc. Look at your own comments Scotty, it looks exactly like you came in looking for a fight with Eric. NO good could ever come of you talking to him when it isn't needed. Yes, it looked like bullying because YOU have the power of the admin bit and buddies on IRC, and he has nothing except a reputation that makes him easy to block.

As for questioning my character, that is a separate issue. I didn't close the AN3, I haven't hid the fact that Eric and I get along on articles, I suggested closing by saying that neither had edited in two hours, and anyone that knows me knows I don't like to block two editors for EW if they aren't editing, that seems punitive. Eric or not. I'm NOT known to block on 4RR, I'm the guy that usually full protects the article. So yes, calling my character corrupt was way over the line. The fact that Eric and I get along is exactly why I WOULDN'T HAVE closed that discussion, even though WP:INVOLVED only covers negative interaction, not positive. It was an attack, and not the same as a merely blunt assessment. Regardless, your activity towards Eric was so massively over the line, it makes ALL admin look bad. THAT is a problem. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:30, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Buddies on IRC? You are making one assumption of bad faith after another. I had no intention of blocking Eric, asking someone else to block him, or logging in to IRC (which I never use) to start a conspiracy against Eric. I was merely commenting that I thought this 3RR offense should result in a block, just as you were commenting that you thought it shouldn't result in a block. All the rest of your assumptions about me and my intentions should have been checked at the door, and they were probably a result of your aforementioned positive INVOLVEments with Eric. You really get overly emotional when it comes to defending him; perhaps you should refrain from commenting on complaint threads about him. ‑Scottywong| squeal _ 01:08, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)It's okay because the other party shot first? Two wrongs don't make a right (although three rights do make a left). Calling another editor corrupt is pretty uncool no matter what the circumstances are. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 23:50, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

My empathy comment was directly in response to his, there was no diff. This is a weak attempt to deflect attention from everything he said on the page. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Actually, if you re-read the discussion, you'd see that your first comment to me was to characterize my (rather civil and level-headed) comments as soapboxing and drama-mongering. You then go on to tell me that my lack of empathy is alarming to me. Only then did I decide to return the favor by giving you some honest criticism. ‑Scottywong| talk _ 23:58, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

The easiest thing is to close this, close the EW page, hat them and move on. Discussion is ongoing on the kelpie talk page and folks can just ignore the ad hominems and move on. I'd hat both these myself right now but have been peripherally involved at editing the kelpie page. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:55, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm sure there is some wisdom in that Casliber, but this is pretty far over the line, and ignoring sends the message that it is ok for an admin to torment editors you've blocked before, and then insult someone who stands up to them. This isn't exactly the first time we've seen this. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:59, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Ok, so let me get this straight. There is an editor who you perceive to be uncivil, who is casting insults and attacks, being inflammatory and argumentative, and you see this as a long term pattern of behavior. Hmm. Who else can you think of who fits that bill, and why are you so enraged by one instance of this behavior and so forgiving of another? ‑Scottywong| babble _ 00:27, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

This isn't the first time we've seen admin torment editors. We can't just do nothing every time we see it. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:38, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh, ok. Well, I'm sorry for "tormenting" Eric about reverting the same page 4 times in a day. I'll be sure to ignore such trivial policies in the future. ‑Scottywong| converse _ 00:53, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• Ok you 2, what the feck is going on here. Two Misplaced Pages editors that I appreciate suddenly squaring off on ANI...fan-fricking-tastic. Scotty, considering your history with Eric, you had no fricking business on the AN3 report - you were simply inflaming something that would have been better off being cooled off. Well-fricking-done - THAT was the part that was really conduct unbecoming. The job of an admin is NOT to pour gasoline on a freicking fire. Dennis was indeed right to call you on it. That never should have HAD TO EVER HAPPEN. What the feck were you thinking? the panda ₯’ 23:57, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Panda, I believe I have a right to express my opinion at AN3. My intention wasn't to inflame anything, it was to express my opinion that clear violations of 3RR should result in a block. It was not until my opinion was derided as "soapboxing" and "drama-mongering" by Dennis, and it was not until I was told I have an alarming lack of empathy by Dennis that I decided to let Dennis know what I thought of his comments. I am fully aware that I am WP:INVOLVED with Eric in just about everything, and had no intention of acting as an administrator with respect to this AN3 complaint. ‑Scottywong| babble _ 00:27, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, other than the fact that we have no "rights" to speak of, we always have to temper whatever right we have with common sense. You personally know that your post there would take on a life of it's own ... and look, it did. You know better than that for crying out loud. This is absolutely disappointing and disgraceful the panda ₯’ 00:53, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• • • Then if you know you are INVOLVED, why bother to speak out there at all, except to get in a few shots against Eric? You couldn't have actioned it according to your own methodology, right? Was it just to opine how all editors that break 4RR should be blocked? Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:35, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
      • Yes, actually, all I was doing was putting forth my opinion as an editor. I don't believe being INVOLVED with an editor prohibits you from expressing your opinion of how a complaint about their behavior should be handled, does it? Just because I've had arguments with Eric in the past (and who hasn't?) doesn't mean that my comments are automatically soapboxing or drama-mongering, and I do not appreciate your comments at the AN3 thread to that effect. In fact, I believe it was your comments that inflamed the discussion in the first place. If you had put away your assumptions of bad faith and treated my comments respectfully, we wouldn't be here right now. Perhaps you should refrain from vehemently defending Eric to prevent him from being blocked, if you can't do it without immediately deriding anyone who disagrees with you. ‑Scottywong| speak _ 00:46, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
        • Bullshit. Your first comment was "I think we can all assume that Eric has been around long enough to know about 3RR; complaining that he didn't get a formal warning is quite tenuous." and you could plainly see that Eric didn't make any such complaint. You went directly after Eric, like a laser beam. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:51, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
        • I am sorry that you misunderstood my first comment, which was actually directed at the editors that were saying Eric shouldn't be blocked because he wasn't properly warned, not at Eric himself (which I made clear in subsequent comments). ‑Scottywong| verbalize _ 01:01, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
          • That stretches credibility Scotty, particularly since that last half of that post included " Since Eric clearly violated 3RR, I believe he should receive a 24-hour block, like any other normal editor would. Of course, we all know that won't happen, because of Eric's privileged status on this site. And therefore, we will perpetuate Eric's belief that he is exempt from most rules (even the ones that are clear-cut and strictly defined)" . They are all there, I can keep using your own words to show you were focused on harassing Eric, but it seems pretty obvious why you were there. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:06, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
            • I don't see any evidence of harassment. I believe that everything I said in that statement is arguably accurate. And honestly, that statement is less directed at Eric than it is at the editors, yourself included, who enable Eric's behavior. ‑Scottywong| confer _ 01:10, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
              • And the fact that you don't see any problem with how you acted, how you treated others is exactly why we are here. It is conduct unbecoming of an admin. It is harassment and personal attacks. The community has the choice of either saying this is acceptable behavior, or saying it is not. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:14, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
                • Well, I believe that your conduct is unbecoming of an administrator. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. And if you think the community gives a shit about your whinging here, you are mistaken. ‑Scottywong| babble _ 01:18, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Frankly both Scotty and Dennis come off sounding like children in this discussion. Why not just move on and stop sniping at each other? Chillum 01:31, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• Forget the attack against me, you think badgering an editor he had previously blocked was ok? Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I see an admin commenting on policy, I see prior admin involvement. Previously blocking a user does not make you an "involved admin" so if there is something else I am missing point it out. Your immediate response to his presence on the noticeboard was really rather confrontational.

It has mostly been you two going back and forth at each other not the initial incident that is being disruptive. Chillum 01:38, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I probably was a little defensive after his first comment, which was a snide remark that started the badgering. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• Comment by a user that couldn't give a flaming toss, but just happened to stumble across this - I would like to ask what you all hope to achieve with this? Drama like this (in my experience at least) has two possible outcomes: You keep arguing on and on until words are said that causes users to rage quit the site or see most users involved in such a dispute face some sort of consequence, usually both sides of the debate. The second outcome involves apologizing to each other (even if you think you are in the right) and moving on. Walking away from this, you can't change anything that happened. All you are doing is bringing up stuff that has already happened and trying to gain some sort of moral highground, which is a pretty lame tactic in my opinion. ~Frosty (Talk page) 00:18, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
• Oh FFS- Dennis, there is nothing wrong with saying an editor breaking 3RR should be blocked for it. Scotty, you are becoming ultra-defensive and belligerent. Both of you, knock it off and go edit the encyclopedia. This is too stupid for words. Reyk _YO! 01:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
  • How is it Panda and Blackkite see it so differently? Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:36, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Probably because anything involving Eric gets all kinds of opinions on both sides. I think I'm practically unique in that I am a 9 year veteran with lots of edits, who nevertheless has had nothing much to do with Eric at all, and I have no opinion regarding this particular 3RR dispute. But I do recognize that Scotty can legitimately think someone should be blocked for breaking 3RR, even when that person is Eric. Reyk _YO! 01:43, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
      • I completely agree that is a valid point of view. That isn't the issue. It was calling other editors pawn, the attack, claims, etc. Given their history, `it looks a lot like badgering to me. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Both of you need to stop. You are acting no better. This matter seems resolved, I don't think any 3RR block is coming. The problem that remains is one of sniping at each other and the solution is to stop. Chillum 01:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC) I'm ok with closing this thread immediately. ‑Scottywong| yak _ 02:01, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Edits to Chris Kelly

The subject of the article is a British politician, the Conservative Member of Parliament for Dudley South. His page has long been edited by anonymous IP addresses from the Houses of Parliament who oppose the inclusion of the facts that he once appealed to fellow MP's to give his sister a job and that he was a paid non-executive of his father's company. These deletions occurred again on 26 July by User:Natasha millward and again on 28 July by User: Gareth Kegg , both were the first edits for those respective users. The use of these user names is malicious as there is a Natasha Milward who is Kelly's Labour opponent at the next general election, and Gareth Kegg, is of course too similar to my own name. I would like the page protected and the respective users warned over their names. I believe of course that the first editor is NOT the actual Natasha Milward as it would seem such bizarre behaviour. Forgive me if this is the wrong place for this query, I hardly ever edit outside of articles. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 23:32, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• I have blocked both editors per BLP/harassment, revision-deleted their names from the history of the article, and semi-protected it for a month. Black Kite (talk) 00:05, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

India Against Corruption yet again

Yep, with apologies, again. India Against Corruption has featured here on several occasions and also at noticeboards such as WP:DRN. Examples include this ANI report, this one, this and this.

The gist is that there was a populist movement in India during 2011-2012 that the media etc termed "India Against Corruption" and that there also exists a rather secretive pressure group bearing the same name that dubiously claims to have existed for 50 years or more but that has had problems regarding our notability policy. A whole heap of accounts were blocked, for reasons that varied from obvious socks to meats and, in at least one instance, an open proxy. All of those accounts were attempting to twist the IAC article (about the populist movement) into one about the pressure group.

Mansjelly (talk · contribs) has recently turned up and is making carefully-worded chilling statements in a similar manner to the previously blocked accounts, a primary example of which was HRA1924 (talk · contribs). The most recent example is this. They are also arguing exactly the same points as were made during the previous ANI etc reports, using what appear to be the same "retractions" (not really retractions because they conflate the movement with the group), and using the same idiosyncratic style as can be seen by anyone who is bold enough to compare their contributions with, say, 2001:4DD0:FF00:8A8B:0:0:0:5747 (talk · contribs).

It is late here, I'm tired and am unlikely to be taking this any further for 12+ hours because, amazingly, I've also got some paid work going on. As happened originally, the article has ended up being full-protected and there remains uncertainty regarding whether this is socking or meatpuppetry. What is pretty certain to me is that there is an unusual commonality and that Mansjelly has displayed a remarkable familiarity with technical matters such as SPI and CU (one of several examples is here, where they also allude to what I strongly suspect are the same news sources that were mentioned in previous discussions earlier this year). Can anyone spare some time to look into this? Sagas drive me daft and this is a saga, so I quite understand if no-one can rise to it. - Sitush (talk) 00:18, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Joan Juliet Buck

Such a minor issue but nevertheless escalating into an edit war. Could someone look at the recent edits to her categories by Johnparklambert? His deleting her from the general American journalists category in favor of American women journalists category smacks of the sexism that appeared earlier in categorization reported by Salon.com. thanks--Aichik (talk) 00:32, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Maybe this is a misunderstanding? Look at this diff, where he explains why, because it's in the subcat, so no need to list it again. Also, he left a note at your talk explaining as well.(talk) 00:36, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) From the edit history on that page, it appears that the user respected your objections and merely retagged it a different way that wouldn't be offensive to you. I don't see an issue here. ♥ Solarra ♥ ߷ _{♀ 投稿 ♀} 01:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Ongoing disruptive editing by fluctuating IP.

On Laura Mersini-Houghton, a fluctuating IP has been adding grammatically incorrect, likely POV, original research into the lede of the article. He has been assisted by Holybeef who may be a sock or meatpuppet, or it may be a random convergence of interests. Holybeef has been warned for disruptive editing on this article before, and is fresh off a block for edit warring on Alan Guth. The IP is now getting quite uncivil (see the response starting "My man" in this diff, and has provocatively engaged at the edit war on Alan Guth, explicitly stating that he was reverting the consensus version of the article for "no reason" with the message "you want nasty, I show you nasty" (both in the edit summary) - diff here.

I have already left notices requesting more eyes at Wikiproject Biography, Wikiproject Physics, Wikiproject Women Scientists and on the original research noticeboard, hoping that some neutral editors might be able to build a consensus there that they would respect, but this latest behavior from the shifting IPs has convinced me that this is unlikely.

I recommend that both pages be temporarily semi-protected and if possible that the fluctuating IP user be blocked for disruptive editing. Assuming that Holybeef and the fluctuating IP are not sockpuppet accounts of one another, I see no need for administrative sanctions at this time (though it would be nice if he were restricted to 0RR on these pages).

Suspected IP addresses:

• 178.253.170.53 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 188.167.90.109 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 78.99.27.35 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 92.245.5.44 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 87.244.231.29 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 178.41.217.81 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 78.99.28.119 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 195.91.109.21 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Potentially also (IP editors showing up during the Mersini-Houghton deletion debate):

• 101.117.108.115 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 101.117.88.62 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Pages:

• Alan Guth (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Laura Mersini-Houghton (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

I'll notify the fluctuating IP user at their most recent IP address used in the Laura Mersini-Houghton talk page, and on the Laura Mersini-Houghton talk page itself, so they will be likely to see it. I will also notify Holybeef, even though he's not the focus of this report. 0x0077BE 00:35, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) There seems to be a huge content dispute on both of these pages, and while that is not a subject delved into by this noticeboard (see WP:DRN), the edit warring, personal attacks, and disruption caused by a whole host of IPs and users on both of these articles is. I recommend protection of this until the folks can play nice on the talk page and work within established dispute resolution processes. ♥ Solarra ♥ ߷ _{♀ 投稿 ♀} 01:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

It's you and your Masonic bros who invade pages like grasshoppers to massacre those pages beyond belief and totally against the rules (ironically: while excessively quoting rules but only general ones, never bullet-by-bullet.) So knock the bs, time to call a spade a spade: you're just a gang of manipulators who at any cost try to portray Guth as originator of inflation though its clear he stole it, portray Mersini as notable despite many editors noting she's not, being just an average researcher, and so on. In doing so, you disregard previous consensuses, proclaim "forbidden references", "banned words", remove neutrality from intro and overall, report me falsely to admins, etc. Holybeef (talk) 02:00, 29 July 2014 (UTC)