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Ian Brady was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 23 September 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Moors murders. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The Mass murder article says this: "The FBI defines mass murder as murdering four or more persons during an event with no "cooling-off period" between the murders." Yet in this edit, "first trial of a multiple murderer" was changed back to "first mass-murder trial", with the edit summary "check the book title". The title of the referenced book by Helen Birch is "Moving Targets: Women, Murder, and Representation". So how is the term "mass murder" justified here? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:22, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
"Mass murder (in military contexts, sometimes interchangeable with "mass destruction") is the act of murdering many people, typically simultaneously or over a relatively short period of time."
So do you think this is a fair description of these murders? Or there is there another commonly agreed definition that you can direct us to? Or even a direct use of that term in any one of the sources used for this article? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:03, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Fully agree that five killings over a period of 27 months qualify more accurately as a serial killing. That's why the article is categorised under Category:Serial murders in the United Kingdom. It certainly doesn't qualify for Category:Mass murder in 1963 etc. There's no mention of "mass murder" at Fred West, and he managed at least ten. But I'm very surprised that British writer Helen Birch should choose to use the phrase "mass-murder" in the chapter on Hindley "If looks could kill" in her 1994 book Moving Targets. Maybe that phrase in this article should be in quotes, as it is a direct quote of a description that many would disagree with. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:32, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
If it was "described as mass murder at the time and in various book sources", I think it would be useful to see those sources. The only example I can find is in Birch's chapter. I think it's misleading to describe the killings as "mass murder". Birch is a journalist, not a legal expert. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:30, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Whether or not Mass Murders was the paperback publisher jazzing up the title to catch more buyers (most likely, I would think), clearly it was not the book's title when first published. There's a discussion going on at WP:IRS which may give pause for thought before we automatically accept a published book's title as authoritative. Alfietucker (talk) 10:21, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
It seems that Goodman's book as first published, in hardback, by David and Charles, in March 1973, as Trial of Ian Brady and Myra Hindley: Moors Case. We seem to be left solely with Birch as a source for that term. I'd accept that as a sole source if she was writing as a legal expert, or if she had a good primary source herself. As far as I can see, she wasn't and didn't. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:03, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Are we talking about the titles on book covers, Eric? And do you take my point that book titles are not necessarily reliable sources? Alfietucker (talk) 14:12, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Here's my advice to you Alfie. Look at my earlier comment about who the term "mass murder" was attributed to, which has nothing to do with any book covers. To which I'll add that no matter how much you attempt to needle me it's very unlikely that you'll provoke me into calling you a cunt – even though I may think that you are – and hence giving you the opportunity to have me blocked. Do we understand each other? EricCorbett14:23, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice, Eric - and for your edit summary "let it go Alfie, you're just coming across as a peevish dick". I don't know if I am, but as they say "Tu quoque". No matter how much you bark at the mirror, you can't stop people noticing when you raise red herrings such as this, with the comment "here's another one then" in response to another editor's "I think it would be useful to see those sources". Sorry, but having got your measure I am not inclined to continue reasoning with you. Alfietucker (talk) 14:37, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Ah yes, it must be my relentless "passive aggressive" stance that's driving editors away. I thought your source was a good one. But it supports a change away from what we currently have. I'm quite happy sticking with the last version as edited by Eric. Or am I supposed to insult him first? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:07, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, good point and a very good source. And carefully qualified by Valier with "as their crimes were then called". Again, I would have no problem in using the phrase in quotes, or (even better) in using that source also with the qualifier. The essential point, made by both Birch and Valier, is that the death penalty was abolished while Brady and Hindley were awaiting trial. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:45, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
As it implies, this was a common terminology so I do not see why there is any necessity for quotation marks and do not understand what point you are trying to make. SagaciousPhil - Chat11:52, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
For what it's worth, my opinion is that I wouldn't consider these killings to be a mass murder. That's just my view, other people may feel differently. Whichever line one takes, it isn't really something that the article hinges on. Parrotof Doom11:54, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
I changed it from "mass-murder trial" to "serial-killer trial", as we've surely all got better things to do than to agonise endlessly over a distinction that may or may not have changed between the 1960s and now. EricCorbett13:57, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
My point is that the Moors Murders were not Mass murder, even if they were mistakenly described like that at the time. I think there is general consensus for this view - not just here but in the "real world". That's why I thought the original edit made by User:Ed Dadoo and the one made by Eric were improvements. Martinevans123 (talk)
When I hear the term "mass murder" I can't help but think of America and an AmEng prose style (I maybe wrong in this though). If I am correct, then this article should be written in BrEng as it is an English event. It should therefore, IMO, not carry the "mass murder" descriptor. Just saying. If I'm talking bollocks, then that's fair enough too. Having said that, if we are discussing the differences between mass murder or any of its alternatives, and I am talking bollocks, then really, who cares? Cassianto19:19, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
I take your point, but I tend not to rely on blogs to bolster up an arguement. Bollocks, when I was at university, was only ever heard in England. Cassianto20:00, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Is it appropriate to describe the murders as "a killing spree"? Although the term is not currently linked, that article says: "A spree killer is someone who kills two or more victims in a short time in multiple locations. The U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics defines a spree killing as "killings at two or more locations with almost no time break between murders." There is no mention of the FBI. Is there a different definition, used in the UK, that would make the use of the term more appropriate? Isn't "killing spree" more of a US term in any case? I'm not sure what's wrong with "The full extent of Brady and Hindley's killings ..."? That seems perfectly clear and unchallengeable. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:36, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
It's also ambiguous, as it could mean the killing of Brady and Hindley. And as I've said before, who cares how the FBI define the term? The social and legal environment in the UK is and was very different from that in the US. EricCorbett19:44, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
The time span of over two years is not within the usual definition of a spree killing. There was a cooling off period of many months between all of the killings. The FBI's definition is not directly relevant, but as mentioned previously, this is more accurately a serial killing.--♦IanMacM♦19:47, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
I would have thought that, once the reader has read past the opening section, that ambiguity would evaporate. I'd quite agree that "social and legal environment in the UK is and was very different from that in the US" - one reason why I think "killing spree" is inappropriate. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:50, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
Aggrawal A. (2005) Mass Murder. In: Payne-James JJ, Byard RW, Corey TS, Henderson C (Eds.) Encyclopedia of Forensic and Legal Medicine, Vol. 3, Pp. 216-223. Elsevier Academic Press, London
