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More eyes on Psychosis probably warranted.

A new editor has been placing info of questionable sources and weight in to the lead of this article. Of greater concern, an IP on the talk page noted this page which appears to be a call for POV editing on this and other psychiatric related articles. More eyes would be appreciated. Yobol (talk) 20:18, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I wonder how successful we will be at turning them into good editors. People who live with a situation are often good at writing in plain English, or at least at identifying our frequent, and frequently needless, use of medical jargon. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:33, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I think this could be a really good opportunity. The comments that follow the blog post indicate that — despite a few voices of frustration and dissent — some in the Mad in America website community are interested in learning our policies and contributing quality psychiatry and mental healthcare content to Misplaced Pages. Although some disagreement over MEDRS sources is likely, I think we can work through those differences if we remember to WP:AGF and WP:DONTBITE. This is my particular area of interest/advocacy. So, I'm willing to take the lead if folks here are interested in being intentional about some sort of informal collaboration. —Shelley V. Adams ‹blame
credit› 02:30, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

The key is a willingness to follow WP:MEDRS. And a willingness to discuss changes that may be controversial. Happy to have more editors. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:36, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Historically, activists of one sort or another have turned Misplaced Pages's psychiatry and psychopharmacology drugs into some of the most unbalanced and difficult to maintain articles on the site. When I started editing Misplaced Pages 2 years ago, the SSRI article contained 25 lines describing the drugs' uses (mainly quoting Kirch's controversial claim that they don't do anything at all in depression), 250 lines on adverse effects and drug-drug interactions, 100 lines of mechanistic speculation based on primary in vitro studies, and a 50 line Criticism section mainly describing the views of those who don't believe psychiatry is a legitimate field of medicine. Peter Breggin, David Healy, and Joanna Moncreif's views were extensively discussed, but no mention made of the treatment guidelines issued by NICE or the APA. If folks recruited from an anti-psychiatry website can be convinced to follow the rules and add content that is NPOV, I'm all for it. But it brings to mind the TV show "Walking Dead" and its episode on efforts to train zombies to be good citizens and to not to eat people. I think it will be very challenging at best. Formerly 98 (talk) 20:18, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

to that, i say "amen". Do we really want to invite a bunch of WP:ADVOCATEs? Advocacy is one of most devilish problems here and as Formerly said many drug articles already are in bad shape due to people who think drugs should be perfect magic bullets and are angry that they are not. Jytdog (talk) 20:33, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Question asked on the Talk:Ebola virus disease page

An editor asked about immunology as regards to Ebola virus disease, as there has been some talk in the news regarding using survivors in treating the currently ill. A brief look on the CDC sites suggests a possible 10 year-ish immunity, but cross-strain immunity isn't known (at least, that is the impression I got). Can we get a bit of help on this from someone who knows a bit more on this particular subject? Thanks in advance.Wzrd1 (talk) 16:59, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

I believe I heard about this being done about 15 or 20 years ago, so presumably it will be mentioned in sources somewhere. This would be a type of passive immunity, so that's probably an appropriate keyword to search for, but that ("passive immunity ebola", no quotation marks) gives me only PMID 11023960 and PMID 9291299 at PubMed, both of which are a bit elderly. Perhaps another term is more common for this idea now, and perhaps the newer term might give you more results.

(Also, Transfusion-related immunomodulation needs some help.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:10, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick response. The issue raised by an editor was, a physician who suffered from Ebola spoke to the notion of using survivors to help treat the inflicted. I see the notion as over simplistic and since it does not consider previous exposures to different strains, *really* problematic. That said, I have zero references to support the obvious and even less to support current immunity and even less time. I'm swing shift and time is a bit of a premium, due to that life thing. From what I recall, the evidence is still a bit awaiting for this epidemic, hence the request for assistance. My Google-Fu is strong and repels nonsense. My Time-Fu is weak, currently.Wzrd1 (talk) 08:19, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Are a HealthTap doctor's answers a useful references in these projects? If so, in what context?

I am a physician working for HealthTap, recently I have taken a personal interest in making our content more available to the public because we have many millions of doctor-authored answers to lay questions on health topics. I feel like our public content could be immensely valuable within Project Medicine. I am hoping to find a legitimate unbiased way to contribute HealthTap content to Misplaced Pages's body of knowledge.

Are there any editors involved who could advise me? I am curious to know if you think HealthTap is a useful primary source and how I could best contribute. Here are some examples of questions and answers that I thought provided unique insights that would be valuable:

• answers on experimental treatment
• answers that reveal doctors attitudes toward clinical practice
• answers that reveal clinical treatment of hard to reach or understudied populations
• answers that reflect clinical knowledge of rare conditions (especially where treatment citations are requested)
• answers to new or unresearched medical topics of interest to the public where clinical opinions might be the best resource

In case you haven't heard about HealthTap, I want to give some context.

• We were founded on principles of social entrepreneurship.
• The articles written by doctors on HealthTap provide unique insights into how doctors practice; because they represent voluntary contributions and insights from the front lines of clinical care in the US.
• Each answer to a clinical topic or question is ″Peer Reviewed″ and shows the degree to which other doctors ″Agree″ with it. So the content on HealthTap reflects the collective practical knowledge of the world's largest network of medical authors (now over 63,000 doctors in over 137 specialties).
• HealthTap content is without commercial bias or influence, because HealthTap takes no advertising or sponsorships ( HealthTap generates revenue from helping individual doctors deliver healthcare to their patients.)
• HealthTap generates content dynamically, however the citations listed here are fixed URLs with content that will not change over time.

I am experimenting with posting citations directly using the citation by contributor template, requesting edits on talk pages, and using the request edit template. But I am new to Misplaced Pages, and hesitant about doing anything more than suggesting citations to more experienced and unbiased editors. I would appreciate feedback.

Thank you! And thank you from all doctors for the fantastic resource that Misplaced Pages has become for health information!

Respectfully, Andrea Burbank, MD Drea 19:14, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Hello Doctor drea. This looks like a useful source to be accessed directly by patients, but the site cannot serve as a reference for medical content in the way one would use a journal article or medical textbook. This is covered in WP:MEDRS, our sourcing guideline. Please have a look & I hope this is reasonable. JFW | T@lk 20:40, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Hello, I just messaged you on your talk page. I have read a lot about HealthTap and have thought about collaboration with Misplaced Pages also. I am glad to find that you had the same idea. I would like to talk more with you, either on your talk page, off-wiki, or here as you like. Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:44, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes agree with JFD. While an interesting site not suitable as a ref. This seems a bit similar to answer.com but for medicine so cool. Was speaking with someone from Sense About Science regarding them launching something very similar. There might be other possibilities to collaborate. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:59, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the prompt (and kind) responses! I read the WP:MEDRS sourcing guideline. I thought it was fantastically well-written and should probably be mandatory reading for all scientists. The discpline of "slow thinking" often needs refreshers! Yes I believe according to the sourcing guidelines we would be a primary source and therefore not valid in the context of a single citation. Our peer review process is more similar to a "panel of experts" and most answers do not cite primary sources although they can be interpreted as summary opinions. As JFW mentioned we are intended to operate as a complementary source for patients where doctors interpret and summarize reference sources such as journal articles and textbooks (and even Misplaced Pages) for patients.

I have thought about it some more and I believe that our content could be valuable to Project Medicine in one other way: as accessible examples of a point made in a secondary source. I came to this conclusion because I got distracted by your feature article on forensic facial reconstruction. I noticed it dealt with a fairly controversial subject in a unbiased manner citing secondary sources, but that it also included individual examples of successful identifications from reconstructions. According to the sourcing guideline: "One possibility is to cite a higher-quality source along with a more-accessible popular source, for example, with the |laysummary= parameter of {{cite journal}}."

Now examples can be very vivid, so while content such as this question/answer set might be too vivid a example in the article on the Management of HIV/AIDS I suspect it could be very relevant in an article on harnessing the power of technology in international health. However I think that out of respect for the culture of Misplaced Pages, incorporation of these examples is best done organically from within Misplaced Pages rather than suggested by people affiliated with HealthTap.

Blue Rasberry I would love to meet and learn other ways that HealthTap and our doctors could collaborate constructively on this project. I do want to clarify one thing from a similar talk page on the teahouse, although we have a commercial offering for the provision of health care, we have millions of doctor answers that are publicly available for free and that is the content I am suggesting would be valuable to editors in this context. Our doctors volunteer their time like Misplaced Pages editors do; with similar motivations but complementary tactics. Once again, thank you for all you do!Drea 19:55, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

It would be useful if physicians who volunteer their time looking for high quality sources to answer questions for HealthTap also checked the relevant content on Misplaced Pages and if it is not well sourced / written edit it based on the sources they have found. We have a help guide for new editors here WP:MEDHOW. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:32, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Doctor drea Call it freaky, but I picked up Kahneman's book at the airport on Sunday and am reading it right now. JFW | T@lk 21:52, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

The |laysummary= idea is not a bad one, in carefully selected circumstances. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:01, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Computer-generated audio files of articles

hi all, Ex-nimh-researcher has posted 'text-to-speech" captures of articles - audio files -- on article pages here and here. Ex-nimh-researcher explained the rationale here. a bit of discussion is here Talk:Major_depressive_disorder#Audio_files. (briefly, seems like a good idea (doc james), seems like a bad idea (me) should not have any background noise so people with hearing problems can hear it, should have time-stamp, perhaps should be automated and updated monthly (?) thoughts, before exnimhresearcher spends boatloads of time on this? Jytdog (talk) 22:46, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

This is not the first time that people have done something like this. Misplaced Pages:Spoken articles. Seems like a good idea. Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 23:48, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

I think the best place to put it would be to have a tab beside "read" at the top that says "listen". Than have new ones produced on a monthly basis or just have it read the article in real time. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:07, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I last listened to a machine-read article a few years ago. It was a rather unpleasant, grating voice. The current machine voice, while still not pleasant, is an improvement. Also, I am disappointed that the sound file opens with the tedious list of medical codes.

I am unconvinced that an embedded real-time machine reader is an improvement over browser-specific screen readers. I am particularly interested to know if people, especially visually impaired, find this feature useful. Axl ¤ 11:24, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Presumably an embedded reader could be optimised for Misplaced Pages. For example, it could be taught not to read out links to references, and to properly deal with pronunciation information (cf File:Schizophrenia_intro.ogg). Surely this is something Wikimedia Foundation would support? Propose at the Village Pump? Adrian J. Hunter 12:19, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes I think a proposal at the Village pump would be great. We should create a mock-up of what it would look like first though. Should be fairly easy to do. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 15:23, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

"I last listened to a machine-read article a few years ago. It was a rather unpleasant, grating voice." - For some reason, computer-generated voices have progressed more further in artificial singing voices, rather than text-to-speech technology for reading words aloud. Most T2S software voices that I've come across still feel very cold and inhuman. I guess there's more profit to be made in the music industry, than people with disabilities. --benlisquare_T•C•E 08:01, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Torpor and Lethargy

Hello there, I just want to let you know that it looks like the interwiki links of Torpor and Lethargy (es:Letargo) are messed. A number of articles are linked to Torpor but they should probably be linked to Lethargy, since it's the same word: ca:Letargia - eo:Letargio - eu:Letargia - fr:Léthargie - pt:Letargia. I would like to ask those who have enough medical knowledge and can read those languages to take a look at this. Thanks. —  Ark25  (talk) 06:44, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

And what's with the Lethargy (a redirect to wiktionary) anyways? Shouldn't it be a redirect to another Misplaced Pages article? —  Ark25  (talk) 06:45, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes what do you propose? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 15:48, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

@Jmh649: Sorry, somehow I forgot about this topic. I propose to take a look at ca:Letargia for example, and move it into wikidata:Q15637420 if it better fits there. The same with the other 4 articles mentioned above. —  Ark25  (talk) 20:01, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Renaming WikiProject Medicine to WikiProject Human Medicine?

There is currently a very one-sided argument going on at WT:ANAT about the renaming of the project. The scope is human anatomy, and one non-project editor feels this must be conveyed in the name, despite the lack of a general animal anatomy project to differentiate from. My concern is this could eventually follow over to WP:MED. Feel free to weigh in. -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 09:56, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Barium meal, swallow, follow through

We have Barium follow-through, Barium meal and Barium swallow. The first is completely unsourced, the second very poorly sourced and the sources for the third are not exactly medrs either. In any case two articles too many for the same procedure imo. Ochiwar (talk) 11:40, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I propose to merge the articles if there are no objections. Ochiwar (talk) 18:27, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:09, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Seconded. What name should we go with for the final article? I'm in favor of Barium swallow. Cannolis (talk) 23:21, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I was thinking of merging the above named articles together with Barium enema and double contrast barium enema under the title Barium contrast imaging. Ochiwar (talk) 10:42, 9 October 2014 (UTC) I had started a draft along those line in my sandbox, hoping to present it here for approval when it stands on solid feet. Feel free to expand and edit. Ochiwar (talk) 11:50, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Hmm perhaps. Although the swallow looks at the upper GI while the enema looks at the lower Cannolis (talk) 02:26, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that and the route of application of the contrast medium are the major differences between the enema and the swallow. Medical uses, indications, contraindications, adverse effects, mechanism, interpretation, accuracy and specificity are largely similar and in most cases identical for all. A sub-section on each under the heading "Types of Barium contrast imaging" should high light the differences. The terms Barium swallow, meal, and follow through are used somewhat ambiguously or interchangeably in the literature, but most authors use the term swallow for studies of the pharynx, larynx and esophagus,(and sometimes stomach) while the terms meal and follow through are most frequently used for examinations of the stomach and small intestine. Ochiwar (talk) 04:04, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Ochiwar These are different studies used for different indications. I am unsure if a merger is definitely the way to go. A "barium swallow" looks at the swallowing mechanism in real time and may identify problems with the oesophagus. A "barium meal" is a longer contrast investigation under fluoroscopy that has effectively been replaced by the upper GI endoscopy. A follow-through study is generally used to look for abnormalities in the small bowel and requires a number of fluoroscopic exposures to identify strictures and fistulae.

The "barium enema" studies examine the large bowel, and could be merged into one. JFW | T@lk 19:29, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Jfdwolff, I am also unsure if a merger is definitely the way to go, that is why I am mentioning it here for discussion. I am aware that swallow, meal, follow through and enema examine different areas of the anatomy. After having gone through the available literature it also appears that the terms are often used ambiguously (at least as far as the first 3 are concerned) which complicates the issue. When you say fluoroscopy has been largely replaced by endoscopy, you are certainly right if you are considering only the part of the world you live in but in many other parts of the world this may not apply yet. While I am not sure of the definitive way to go, I had hoped to be able to combine all these terms and terminologies, similarities and differences in one single well referenced article leaving redirects, because at the end of the day there are more similarities than differences between these procedures. And as you have pointed out, they are being replaced by more advanced technologies as we speak. I have started a draft along this line of thinking (I have not gone very far yet) in my sandox and would appreciate if you could take a brief look at it. Let me know please if you think a merger along these lines is useful to the encyclopedia or rather not. I would not want to be wasting my time. In any case I feel the present state of the named articles is not up to encyclopedia standard and updating each one individually would entail unnecessary duplication. I will put my draft on hold until I get some feedback and face other projects. Ochiwar (talk) 20:23, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Ochiwar I agree that I was exhibiting systemic bias by presuming that some barium studies are now almost obsolete. You are also correct that the terminology is confused - in the UK the studies called "barium swallow" and "barium meal" are typically combined, although "meal" is also used for small bowel follow-through. As such I am willing to support a merge of all the "proximal" studies, but I would leave the large bowel studies separate. JFW | T@lk 21:43, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Paris syndrome

Someone please review Paris syndrome for advanced acute hoaxitus. EllenCT (talk) 23:00, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

The BBC and Guardian sources seem legitimate, though I'm not entirely convinced that one could describe it as a "psychological disorder". AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:18, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The sources look okay, and none of them seemed to be published on April Fool's Day. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:19, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Why are news secondaries okay for a "syndrome" but not the health effects of fracking? EllenCT (talk) 23:52, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

You seemed to be asking whether this is a hoax. It appears not to be. As to whether it is a genuine "psychological disorder", and thus comes under the remit of WP:MEDRS, that is another question entirely. The article cites one source from a medical journal, but I'm not sure that is sufficient in of itself to answer the question. I suspect that this might possibly be one of those edge cases that medical anthropology likes to look at - a culturally-bound medical condition. Which one could argue is "only in people's heads", and thus not a real condition. Except of course that one could say the same thing about posttraumatic stress disorder. The fact of the matter is that people do frequently exhibit 'real' symptoms as a consequence of psychological stress - though whether the mismatch between the 'real' Paris and a Japanese 'idealised' Paris is enough to stress unfortunate Japanese tourists to the extent that medical intervention is likely to be needed is likely to remain open to question - not something one is likely to be able to do conclusive research on, given the variables involved, and the ethical problems one would face in trying to conduct some sort of organised trial. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:21, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

There are actually a fair number of sources. I however do not find it in the DSM5. Maybe next edition :-) Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:44, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Do we allow descriptions of "psychological disorders" in Misplaced Pages's voice without MEDRS secondary sources? EllenCT (talk) 03:29, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

If it was making claims to be a "psychiatric disorder" than we would have more of an issue. Psychology / pop psychology is not really medicine. I am not entirely comfortable with this article and agree it could use better refs. There is also Jerusalem syndrome. As a cultural entity they appear to "exist" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 03:56, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

It's just a local version of Stendhal syndrome, which has no MED tag. Jerusalem syndrome is similar but overlaps with more serious & permanent conditions. Wiki CRUK John (talk) 11:45, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Page move

Would any passing admin please move CCPDMA to its spelled-out title, Complete circumferential peripheral and deep margin assessment? Thanks, WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:20, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Done. See you need to become an admin. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:48, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Categorization of OD symptoms

A reviewer at the FAC wanted me to convert the text covering the symptoms in Amphetamine#Overdose into a wikitable format due to the long chain of wikilinks in the current version (WP:SEAOFBLUE issue). That said, I'm not 100% certain that I categorized all these symptoms appropriately by system, so I figured I'd paste the table here for feedback on the table before pasting it into the section. I've added the current section beneath it just for comparison.

Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 00:13, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I like the table. Did the same thing with obesity. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:45, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Simplified / corrected a couple I think. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:57, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the help! I've pasted your revised version into the article... I actually had to put the wikitable in a template (Template:Amphetamine overdose) because wikitables don't parse correctly inside the #ifeq function, which is used to transclude most of the overdose section to dextroamphetamine, Adderall, and lisdexamfetamine. Apparently transcluding the table works though. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 03:50, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

It's much better, but I don't like the 2 main columns being so wide, which makes it harder to read. I'd about halve their width, as only the header text is at all long. This may appear differently in my wide screen to how others see it, I'm not sure. Wiki CRUK John (talk) 11:40, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

There's not a lot that we can do about that right now. If you set a width, you're going to have problems on mobile devices, which represent a third of all page views these days. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:16, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

• I love summary tables. One concern that I have about this one as well as all others is that they are prone to corruption if anyone changes something. My preferred solution to this is having a citation after every information item in the table. Many people for stylistic purposes oppose this, but in my opinion, preserving data quality outweighs style concerns and there is a real threat here. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:26, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Or at least put them in as hidden refs using <!-- --> Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 16:43, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I like the tables and their implementation, and I could get over the fact they are full width on my screen. My only concern is about "extremely large overdose". The word extremely doesn't feel professional enough for an encyclopedia, and if this is to be an example we can use in other articles I suggest it be changed. It retracts from what you really mean - "Very large" or even just "Large" would suffice. -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 18:28, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I've removed the forced 100% width and centered the table. The current table is roughly the best I can make it look without the two symptom columns being unequal in size or specifying a px width (which would cause problems in some browsers). It looks ok on my laptop; looks better on my phone. Edit: The main reason I used the term "extreme" here as opposed to "very" is to emphasize that those effects require a much larger dose than that taken to produce symptoms of a moderate overdose (an order of magnitude usually - therapeutic doses range in the tens of mg with a max of 60 mg (per the FDA and INCHEM); recreational doses typically range from 500mg to 5g). Another minor reason I worded it that way is that the symptoms of a moderate OD may occur at idiosyncratically low doses - extreme OD symptoms do not (most of them are medical emergencies). Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 21:02, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Okay, is there anything preventing you from having a >xxmg or something similar in the box? Also, I understand the need to differentiate, but extreme isn't the proper word. Maybe major? -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 15:53, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

After pubmed searching "Extreme overdose" without a filter, I see your point. I've used the scale in PMID 9656975 and changed the headings accordingly. Let me know if that works for you. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 17:17, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Page move of caregiver

Hello, I am requesting comment about a move. I started this discussion about 6 weeks ago and it is slow going. "Caregiver" and "Caregiving" are Misplaced Pages articles on completely unrelated concepts. I am proposing that "Caregiving" be the article about caring for a person with an impairment and get both of these titles, and the academic concept currently at "caregiving" be disambiguated with a qualifier. I would appreciate comment at Talk:Caregiver#Requested_moves. Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:42, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Cross-wiki infoboxes

Category:Templates using data from Wikidata has some templates that we (meaning people more technically adept than I) might want to look over. It should, in theory, be possible to use this to automagically fill in a parameter (e.g., an ICD code) based on Wikidata if the parameter isn't specified in the article itself.

The documentation is at Misplaced Pages:Wikidata#Infoboxes (Phase 2), and it's not completely up to date. I believe that if we figured out how to do this, and then ported the changes to the other Wikipedias, then this would work everywhere, which might be very convenient for translators. I may be wrong, of course, but I believe that it might make it possible to type just {{infobox disease}} at the top of the page, and have the entire infobox filled in, without needing to have a dozen lines of confusing, case-sensitive code at the start of every lead. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:58, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing Yes, what you say is correct, and this is already done in some places. As I understand, we are waiting for any community member to trial this and trialing this would take a non-programmer only hours to set up. Anticipated problems include making infoxes thereafter incomprehensible and increasing page load time by seconds for when 100 data pieces are called.

There will be an IRC meetup on this 16 October hosted by Fabrice Florin (WMF).

Here are some medicine-specific past discussions.

• Infoboxes: Moving data to Wikidata, from archive 37
• Wikidata project to associate drugs with interactions, from archive 52

Blue Rasberry (talk) 19:59, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like a great idea, especially for things like the ongoing translation project this would probably be of great value. I am however a bit concerned with editing those data; if you look at the cross-language interwiki links, it has already become incredibly hard to do anything other than adding one language link (which can still be done with the wikipedia interface, anything more takes you to wikidata and beware if two different wikidata items exist linking to the same topic in different languages, things start getting ugly very quickly then). It would be nice if wikidata's interface could be improved a bit before this. Alternatively (but less optimally), the locally specified values could overrule wikidata values, so if you put in an infobox it would take all data from wikidata but you could still enter different data in the article itself. --WS (talk) 20:06, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Wouterstomp To start I think the hope is to minimize need for anyone to localize data. Propagating things like links to WHO pages would be a good start. Numerical data which is widely accepted is another option. I do not think Wikidata's interface will be improved without a trial of this, and a trial of this is not going to be easy until Wikidata's interface is improved. This is why we have halted. I would love for someone to apply for a grant at the meta:Grants:IdeaLab space to get the resources necessary to prototype a model for this so that discussion and development can continue. The project will only be messy and problematic in the beginning. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:41, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I think we pretty much need one or two advance scouts to go figure it out and report back, so we'll have a clearer idea of what to do. ICD numbers seem like a good place to start, since they're the same all over the world, or maybe OMIMs would be good.

@Scottalter:, do you think you could figure out how to adapt the infobox to read something from Wikidata (only if the item were blank in the article)? The en.wp template side of the matter seems more accessible to me than the Wikidata side. If someone else could figure out how to get the Wikidata record fixed (just for one article; I'll suggest the incredibly low-traffic ODDD as a target), then we could try a test run to see if it works. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:36, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Where was the first NICU?

I note with interest this recent edit to Neonatal intensive care unit, sadly without source. Now I'm curious. Certainly Couney was instrumental in bringing the incubator to the US, but was Yale-New Haven the first NICU in the world? The article previously claimed that Vanderbilt University held that honour which I cannot find a source to support, although they do seem to have been the first to ventilate a neonate.

Anyone know of a better reference than Design for Pediatric and Neonatal Critical Care? Basie (talk) 22:28, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I think I found one. Apparently it was actually in 1965, not 1960, and was opened by Dr. Louis Gluck. Jinkinson talk to me 01:32, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Basie, you're back! I've missed you. It's great to see your name today. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:53, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Thought I recognised your name ;) Thanks! Hopefully I can help out a bit around the edges. Basie (talk) 04:01, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Molecular pathological epidemiology

Dear medical experts: This article was accepted some time ago at AfC, but something strange has happened to the reference section since then. Can someone who understands the topic please take a look at it —Anne Delong (talk) 02:56, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/National Association of Primary Care

Dear medical experts: Here's another old AfC draft. By the time copyvio bits from

• http://www.napc.co.uk/article/-national-association-of-primary-care-/napc-practice-innovation-network
• http://www.napc.co.uk/what-we-do
• http://www.napc.co.uk/pin
• http://london.cylex-uk.co.uk/company/national-association-of-primary-care-16002221.html

are removed, I'm not sure there will be enough left to make an article. Should the whole thing just be deleted? —Anne Delong (talk) 20:22, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Here's a recent news article in an industry rag. It might be notable. But if there's not much left after the copyvio cleanup... I don't know if it would be worth it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:36, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

WP:Common name matter: Müllerian duct vs. paramesonephric duct

Opinions are needed on the following matter: Talk:Paramesonephric duct#Move Paramesonephric duct back to Müllerian duct?. A WP:Permalink to the discussion is here. Flyer22 (talk) 22:02, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Mobile pageviews have arrived

For those who are interested in readership. Percentage pageviews for our top medical articles by mobile are often around 50%.User:West.andrew.g/Popular_pages. This means our graph that assumes mobile of 30% is low. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:48, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

At last! Will these be integrated into the project-specific popular pages listings? --Tom (LT) (talk) 22:33, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/Nirfast

Dear medical experts: I know this isn't directly a medical topic, but the Technology WikiProject appears to be inactive. Is there a better place to discuss this old AfC draft? —Anne Delong (talk) 15:21, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't think there would be, and this seems thoroughly promotional to me, it would likely be okay to delete. -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 15:49, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Besides its a copy paste from here. and the nirfast website. Ochiwar (talk) 16:12, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, CFCF and Ochiwar. I have deleted it. —Anne Delong (talk) 03:03, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/Non-melancholic depression

Hello again, medical experts. Here's another old AfC draft which may be of interest. Is this a notable topic? —Anne Delong (talk) 19:57, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Sort of but not really as put across here as it is somewhat misleading. It will already be covered in major depressive disorder. I'd not use it. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:30, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Should that term redirect to atypical depression? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:41, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Tempting...but I always took non-melancholic to be broader than atypical depression. The latter predates adjustment disorder with depressed mood really and harks back to days of endogenous vs reactive depression. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:03, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

The lead of atypical depression should probably be revised to reflect the distinction. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 01:06, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Ebola virus epidemic in West Africa article

Briefly looking into the edit history of the Ebola virus epidemic in West Africa article, I don't see any of our WP:Med editors watching that article (at least not typical WP:Med editors watching it). I think that it's a good idea that a few of us WP:Watchlist it, just like we are watching the Ebola virus and Ebola virus disease articles. I'll go ahead and WP:Watchlist it. Flyer22 (talk) 01:41, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

I've also gone ahead and WP:Watchlisted the Ebola virus article. I have yet to consistently WP:Watchlist the Ebola virus disease article; this is because I've seen that it's well-watched by WP:Med members. Flyer22 (talk) 01:44, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Flyer22. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 08:12, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

No problem. It seems that CFCF is also now watching the article. And for documentation in this section, Dovikap moved the Ebola virus epidemic in West Africa article to Ebola virus pandemic, and RockMFR rightfully reverted, as seen here. Flyer22 (talk) 16:17, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Pine cone extract

Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/Pine_Cone_Extract

Dear medical experts: Is this old AfC submission about a notable topic? Should it be kept and improved, or deleted as a stale draft? —Anne Delong (talk) 01:06, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

If straight-up Google results for the term in quotes are any indication (which they might not be), then probably not, I would say. There are 15 results for the phrase on PubMed, none of which are MEDRS compliant, so it would probably become a quackfest if we accepted it through AFC. I found some results using Google Books but mostly just passing mentions, so I would conclude that it isn't notable, but I might be wrong. Jinkinson talk to me 01:37, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Category for published articles

I propose a category (possibly Category:Published articles) for externally published Misplaced Pages articles, such as the article "Dengue fever". (Perhaps in the future, it can have subcategories.) The new category can be categorized in Category:Articles.
—Wavelength (talk) 03:01, 12 October 2014 (UTC) and 03:45, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
To distinguish the articles from those published by VDM Publishing and similar companies, a better name for the new category might be "Category:Articles published in peer-reviewed literature", with allowance for medical articles and other articles.
—Wavelength (talk) 05:06, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

sounds like a reasonable proposition.Docsim (talk) 12:10, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

How many articles do you believe would currently belong in the category? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:54, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

wise guy. :) but good point. Jytdog (talk) 23:00, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Extending or adding infoboxes

My english isn't very good, but I'll try to explain what's on my mind...I'm sure this has been discussed before, but there are some things I miss here on Misplaced Pages. I was thinking that disease articles could've had additional infoboxes with general information like case fatality rate, laterality (e.g. unilateral in the case of pneumothorax, or bilateral testicular torsion, etc.), typical biological markers, incidence rates, affected sex (male, female, both), prognosis (poor, good, very good), typical symptoms, contraindications, etc. Perhaps even more technical information, like typical blood count values and so forth. Please provide a link if this has been discussed before. What do you think? Gautehuus (talk) 17:07, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Off the top of my head, I'd say it's quite hard to come up with numbers that are useful because it all depends on context. For example, incidence--where? In the US? Worldwide? How long before those figures are out of date and become inaccurate? Blood values vary with age, and prognosis is tremendously dependent on all kinds of things (how prompt the diagnosis was, access to services, probably socioeconomic status, age, general health of the patient).Basie (talk) 20:00, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Some of these are possible. Perhaps a different box under ==Diagnosis== would be good for blood tests. A box listing symptoms under ==Symptoms== is also possible. I wonder if that would tend to introduce editing problems. Some people might think that a box for symptoms needed to contain all the possible symptoms (and especially whichever symptoms they personally experienced). WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:18, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

If we do decide on something like this we would need some firm guidance on where and how many items these contain. We should be trying to write in prose rather than list form IMO. And with more boxes things can get become poorly formatted / more confusing rather than less. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:34, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

If you're interested, we could try collaborating on a dummy/sandbox article just to see how it would look, and to find out whether it will work or not. I imagine it will be hard to create a one universal infobox, but to start this off, I think we could make one that can be used in the larger articles on common diseases. Gautehuus (talk) 14:17, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Gautehuus I am very supportive of this idea. For medicine there is less work in trying this than there is in economics. There are several issues to overcome. One is the creation of the infobox, another is deciding how to store the data which goes into the infobox, and another is deciding which datasets to present. For medicine deciding which data to present can be difficult as there are arguments about whom to trust.

For economics there is more consensus in many datasets, and at meta:Grants:IdeaLab/Global Economic Map there is a proposal to make an infobox for all regions which presents the economic data by year and updates automatically every year. This proposal is not being developed by anyone but I think if it were funded for economics then based on that precedent we could try something with medicine.

What you suggest is an excellent idea and it must be the future of Misplaced Pages. The biggest problem right now is finding someone who is able to apply for a grant to do the necessary development to make this happen. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:36, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Active surveillance of prostate cancer

Newly moved to specific title and tagged for the project. Needs some checking, if only for links and copvio. Long and expert. It was previously called just Active surveillance, previously a redirect to Watchful waiting, which I have restored. But the new article (only about prostate) distinguishes between the two, whereas Watchful waiting treats them as synomymous. Thoughts? Wiki CRUK John (talk) 11:50, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Health statistics: US vs global

When editing pages is it better to use US statistics, global statistics, or both? For example, many of the cancer pages only list a 5 year survival from a US perspective. Global stats seem more prudent to me, and I wouldn't be opposed to including both. Just wanted to get people's opinions on this. Thanks. Muscat Hoe (talk) 14:40, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

We should always use global statistics, whenever possible! We do have a US-bias, but only because many editors come from the US and are savvy about the situation there, and will more likely be interested in such numbers. Additionally we aren't limited to US or global statistics either, but should display UK, EU, Japan, China etc. etc. whenever they are notable (mentioning these as they are more likely to have statistics on a variety of diseases as opposed to say Rwanda).

US statistics aren't premiered in any way, and if for example industrialized countries have a certain incidence, which is the same as the US, we are safe to assume that readers can extrapolate that the US is an industrialized country and it would not need independent mention, unless on a more list-type epidemiology article. -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 14:52, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree with CFCF. Ideally, we would feature global statistics whenever possible. If there are significant differences in different areas of the world, different ages, or different gender, or specific occupations than it is important for us to use these statistics, too. We have a long way to go to do this in a consistent way in most health articles. Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 16:09, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I'd agree that we should use global statistics, but in some cases the U.S. data is collected and available and the global information is not. The CDC, the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services, the Healthcare Utilization Project, and other databases do provide much more epidemiology info than is sometimes available on a WW basis, and the EU has similarly detailed info on many topics. I'd hate to see useful local statistics that one can in many cases extrapolate from excluded in favor of non-existent stats of a more global nature. Formerly 98 (talk) 16:20, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I take the point as a general one, but for cancer, regulars here have at least 3 copies of World Cancer Report 2014 (World Health Organization. 2014. ISBN 9283204298), and CRUK's CancerStats sub-site has good global and UK figures. We are normally only giving the very top-level figures just as figures, and for more detail and explanation/interpretation should mostly be using normal MEDRS reviews etc. So both, as we all agree. Wiki CRUK John (talk) 16:41, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree with everyone else that worldwide is best, but anything (well, anything halfway decent) is better than nothing. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:53, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

The issue is that we too often use low hanging fruit of US stats when the other content is available with just a bit of effort. So, I would like to ask everyone to think broader and make the effort to look for global stats that give a more complete picture. Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 20:08, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

On this issue, as part of my training work, a Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_CRUK/Angel_training#Participants.2C_stats_team number of CRUK specialists from the stats team added basic UK stats to several cancer articles on October 3rd - eg this, with this note/disclosure on the talk page: "Hi, I'm from Cancer Research UK and going to add some UK stats to the epidemiology section complied from ONS, ISD Scotland, Welsh Cancer Intelligence and Surveillance Unit and the Northern Ireland Cancer Registry as summarised on the Cancer Research UK website". They now plan to do the rest of the 35 cancer types they cover in the same way. At a later stage I hope we can add more on global figures and patterns, but this is a welcome start I think. I'm thinking a standard edit summary with a reference to a version of this explanation on the CRUK project page will be enough, without a talk page section each time. Do people agree with this? The figures will be sourced & referenced to the CRUK CancerStats sub-site, which they write. I expect most of you will be familiar with my pitch that for the UK stats these are the best source for us to use, as the figures published by the various official stats bodies are mostly in forms designed for professionals, so I won't repeat that. What is great is that they are keen to incorporate this into their standard updating procedures, so after I am gone from CRUK new figures will be updated on Misplaced Pages. Wiki CRUK John (talk) 12:44, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Global stats should be first if available. Sometimes they do not exist. I often than provide stats of large English speaking nations. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

John, that sounds fine to me. I think it's reasonable to include stats from English-speaking countries even if we've got good global data, too. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:38, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Rudolph Tanzi needs eyes

Rudolph E. Tanzi, a medical BLP, is almost totally unsourced. BTW, Tanzi has been in the news lately for developing cell cultures that develop structures of Alzheimer's disease. Jinkinson talk to me 15:08, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

As so often with "unsourced" articles, it looks like a largely copyvio from the EL hospital bio. Wiki CRUK John (talk) 16:46, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Marburg virus,,,Pros/Cons

Recently I found opposition to include the Marburg virus (filoviridae ,same as Ebola) in the "Ebola west Africa" article. Though it did NOT originate in west Africa, I though it would add to the article (Congo and its 71/43 CFR, is included, though it also has no connection to west Africas' current outbreak). So im asking for opinions, of whether to push the matter or drop it.thank you.--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 22:06, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

WP:Disruptive editing at psychology articles, reported at WP:ANI

Opinions are needed from this WikiProject on the following matter: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Chesivoirzr regarding psychology articles or articles that include psychological perspectives. A WP:Permalink to that discussion is here. If Chesivoirzr continues to edit psychology articles, or Misplaced Pages in general, I am not confident that this WP:Disruptive behavior will stop. Flyer22 (talk) 23:09, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Cite error: There are <ref group=sources> tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=sources}} template (see the help page).

1. http://news.yahoo.com/five-ugandans-isolation-ebola-marburg-virus-death-100016088.html