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Electrostatic

If it's a "rapidly alternating" field, it's not "electrostatic". But it's a direct quote, so what can you do? --Wtshymanski (talk) 21:55, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

AC electrostatic fields? It remains an electrostatic field no matter how fast it's varying. But more clearly, "Electrostatics" is a field of science involving e-fields, charge, forces. It's analogous to Newtonian Statics. Neither one is required to be "static." Instead, they only apply to situations where "dynamics" phenomena are insignificant, or are being ignored. If neither EM waves nor magnetic fields are significant, then a system is "electrostatic," even if it's AC. Or for example, if you're looking only at the e-fields and attraction/repulsion forces of a radio antenna, then you're doing "Electrostatics."128.95.172.173 (talk) 01:46, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Material needs to be put back in

Material needs to be put back in ...

"Revision as of 09:28, 5 January 2011 Wtshymanski" ... has a strong anti-Tesla POV in editing.

... needs to be put into the Electrical conduction section. --J. D. Redding 16:08, 5 January 2011 (UTC) <years later> In this article, we should talk about methods that work. Poor doomed Tesla has a whole article on his World Wireless system and a lengthy biography as well. --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:26, 18 September 2014 (UTC) ...and again, this article should stick to methods that work, not dead-ends that couldn't work. --Wtshymanski (talk) 15:55, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Electric energy transfer

This section is very poorly put together and is almost useless without simple field line diagrams. Also please don't just rip unedited from Steinmetz... simplify first.

Get on it!!!!

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.236.53 (talk) 20:14, 17 February 2011‎ (UTC)

This section did seem to read oddly textbook when i saw it, figures. Darryl from Mars (talk) 00:04, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Narrower beams.

Article wrote: Because of the "thinned array curse," it is not possible to make a narrower beam by combining the beams of several smaller satellites.


Phase coherent sources on the baseline of a set of larger antenna array (satellite) sources, produce narrower beams. And sources spaced sufficiently Nyquist dense to the broadcast wavelength, would produce an ideal narrow beam, with a larger array of satellites. Phase array radars use this method. What you mean to say is that, "Combining several satellites into a larger array with phase coherency, will produce a narrower beam, but the more that the synthetic aperture array is thinned below a Nyquist Source Spacing Wavelength Criterion, will cause the beam pattern to be spread about the ideal narrow beam far-field pattern, in a reduced resolution." 76.93.48.186 (talk) 19:26, 6 March 2011 (UTC)



http://en.wikipedia.org/Phased_Array_Radar

Heard Iceland wants to use wireless power transmission ?

Heard nation of Iceland.Wants to use Wireless power transmission to sell power to Europe! From its Geo GThermal producing power plants? Any info on this idea? That of Nikola Tesla (1856-1943) idea of sending eleltric power wirelessly? Thanks!SPQRANDRE (talk) 21:31, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Wireless Power Transfer by Magnetic Resonant Coupling

Two type of wireless power exist: Far-field, and Near-Field. This article ignores a category suggested by this section title, and is years behind industrial innovations in the same.

WiTricity <--- a Misplaced Pages article

WiTricity is resonant coupling for power transfer --near-field coupling NOT far-field coupling. WiTricity was branded by Marin Soljacic from MIT.

Resonant inductive coupling <---wikipedia article

“Resonant energy transfer is the operating principle behind proposed short range wireless electricity systems such as WiTricity and systems that have already been deployed, such as passive RFID tags and contactless smart cards.”

The Misplaced Pages.org articles WiTricity and Resonant inductive coupling are not even in the 'See Also' section.

What is the blind-spot about in this confused article?

Not to mention that Intel Corp. did a road show with demonstrations of a few dozen watts of power transfered several feet at 75% efficiency.

And a cell phone company, TDK, already has a wireless power charger designed for production, with improvements already slated. Another company has a wireless power charger pad to park an electric car over for wireless charging.

As an enthusiast, I'm compiling a time-line as I can (not complete by any means)...

Consider that while the press realizes and reports MIT's and Intel's work, et al, as the magnetic equivalent of Tesla's resonant voltage technology, that the academic cloud has yet to precipitate much outside the home camp... perhaps only due to the newness of it all. Yet, when industry forges ahead at the lead from MIT, is that not sufficient citation? Are the scientific papers supporting the patents by Soljacic not sufficient citation?

The missing term here is resonant coupling. Electrodynamic induction is not proper terminology for the same. Why? Because the resonant one-loop coil that transmits (often surrounded by a field-shaping passive coil) makes no broadcast RF signal while self-resonant. Therefore...

How can one claim dynamic-induction when there is no RF field to create induction?

I hope to track this article and the cultural interplay of old-school meeting new-school... because to date, very few can disconnect Marin Soljacic's work on first exposure as more than an inductive trick.

Think coupled NMR coils, built to cohere to a self-magnetic-resonance at the same frequency, with field drop-off between them mapping the Coulomb field energy gradient (exponentially dimenishing with distance). There is no emitted RF signature from a self-resonant magnetic loop.

Links about magnetic resonant coupling (not to be dismissed as inductive coupling)

Facebook
WiTricity Corporation
Youtube (for pity sakes)
WiTricity technology (The Economist)
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbCUMhkEhTo
Wireless Charging for Consumer Electronics and Military Applications
Instructables.com has at least one proper builder-project
(also with term confusion --because they may have read this article!)

Remember that like this Misplaced Pages article seems to portray by omission AND mis-labeling, that there is a general mis-conception that inductive coupling is the principle involved with magnetic resonant coupling.

Check out this gap between coils...

DonEMitchell (talk) 17:23, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Re-edited DonEMitchell (talk) 12:56, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Re-edited -moved to the bottom, sorry DonEMitchell (talk) 13:19, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Re-edited -my bad. Inductive Wireless Coupling is in the 'See Also.'

Contactless vs. Wireless

This article covers all types of contactless charging, including the future potential for wireless charging. Given this topical breadth, I renamed the article accordingly.

Contactless charging includes all types of systems, from inductive charging, with which a device must be placed very near or on top of the charger, to wireless charging, with which a device could be freely transported around a house while charging—a technology that is still in very earky developlemt.

Primarily, though, the previous article title was confusing to the 90% of people who don't understand electrical engineering, and were led by it to believe there is a technology available to them that allows the freedom to carry their mobile phones around the house while charging.InternetMeme (talk) 04:36, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

That's irrelevant. We're not here to right wrongs. The relevant question is what the title normally is in the literature. So far as I can tell, it's simply 'wireless power' nearly always.Teapeat (talk) 19:55, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Wireless Is Not Necessarily 'Contactless'

The disturbed charge of ground and air method employs ground terminal electrodes that are in physical contact with the earth; it is not contactless and yet it is wireless.  Furthermore, the energy transmission mode is not by means of electromagnetic induction nor by electromagnetic radiation, rather by electric current flowing through natural conductors and displacement current.  The name of the article should be changed back to "Wireless energy transfer" or changed to "Wireless power or wireless energy transmission." -- GPeterson (talk) 16:11, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Considering title changes

Shortcut

. . . If an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed. . . .

no consensus can be reached on what the title should be, default to the title used by the first major contributor after the article ceased to be a stub. (This paragraph was adopted to stop move warring. It is an adaptation of the wording in the Manual of Style, which is based on the Arbitration Committee's decision in the Jguk case.)

Any potentially controversial proposal to change a title should be advertised at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves, and consensus reached before any change is made. Debating controversial titles is often unproductive, and there are many other ways to help improve Misplaced Pages. . . .

While titles for articles are subject to consensus, do not invent names as a means of compromising between opposing points of view. Misplaced Pages describes current usage but cannot prescribe a particular usage or invent new names.

-- GPeterson (talk) 16:33, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. Yunshui 雲‍水 11:00, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Contactless energy transfer → Wireless power – Misplaced Pages requires we use the most common name for the title. The most common name is 'wireless power', so we should use that. Even the use of the word 'energy' is bad because electricity is really mostly to do with power, not energy, because electric circuits are largely incapable of storing energy (although batteries can, they really store power, in the form of energy). But that doesn't matter much, the most common name for this is 'wireless power'.Teapeat (talk) 20:06, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Terrestrial single-conductor surface wave transmission line

How this type of power transfer in microwave frequency range through a single conductor comes under the article titled 'Wireless power'?

R!j!n (talk) 12:05, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, if it has a wire, it's not wireless and doesn't belong here. --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:37, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Citation 106 was not correct.

I found the correct date and pages for this citation. Here is a link to the actual article: http://hdl.handle.net/2027/njp.32101050973336?urlappend=%3Bseq=836

I have corrected the citation. Thanks,

MMcGehee (talk) 12:42, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Scalar Electromagnetics

Google video search (Tesla Konstantin Meyl transmission of energy)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuJPz88jUbM "Meyl shows Tesla longitudinal waves for wireless energy transmission"

The result that I watched illustrated that there was a distinct difference between the Tesla coil transmission of energy when in one mode (Hertzian wave mode) where the signal strength was very weak and could easily be blocked by a person's hand versus a stronger signal (longitudinal wave mode) that could not be blocked by a person's hand.

Physicist Meyl said that he had demonstrated this at a number of lectures at universities to both students and professors.

Meyl also claimed that the wave of the stronger transmission was not Hertzian, but was longitudinal. The fringe science of scalar electromagnetics subject is usually not found here on Misplaced Pages. A search a year or two ago produced no Google search results from the Misplaced Pages web pages for stuff relating to scalar electromagnetics at all.

The Tesla coil experimenters demonstrating the phenomenon could claim now that the pervading Higgs field of local space time is being disturbed by the oscillating Tesla coil to permit a more distant than usual coupling or induction in a receiving resonant Tesla coil device.

Other persons have claimed to have produced low powered public address systems whose wireless remote units were able to drive speakers at substantial distances from the transmitters. Google (Patrick Flanagan Tesla)

Meyl also claimed that he confirmed claims of others that the longitudinal wave traveled at a FTL speed of about 1.5 c (where c = the speed of light in free space).

Google (Donald Lee Smith free energy)

A now deceased petroleum mining engineer named Donald Lee Smith produced a number of so called free energy devices. He had an unfettered access to books on electrodynamics dating back to the 1800s, and so did not dismiss out of hand any of the original theories therein posited in the older texts. In one or more presentations Smith says that for quite a number of years that he had never heard of Tesla's experimentation in the field of energy.

Among the numerous working device prototypes where Smith supposedly demonstrated over unity results was a 4 Tesla coil apparatus where a resonant circuit powered a low loss Tesla coil transmitter that induced "identical" / multiplied energy output in resonant receiver Tesla coils that were within 5 centimeters or so away. For the greatest energy transfer to the 3 receiver Tesla coils, each had a tuning capacitor for adjusting the receiver coils to be as close in resonant frequency as possible to the transmitter.

Google (Donald Smith inventors weekend 2001)

The point in the particular video that features explanation of the operation of the Tesla coil resonant network transmitter is at about 5 minutes 27 seconds... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfVd3AKbLnM&feature=youtu.be&t=5m27s

The video lacks any live demonstration of the particular Tesla coil energy transmission and multiplication device.

The correspondence with the mechanism demonstrated by Meyl is that the Don Smith unit could well have had more receiving coils at even greater distance apart to have received the transmitter's energy. Meyl's unit demonstrate that the units do not work with the 1/ (d squared) transmission reduction by the simple and practical fact that Meyl's input energy was the small output of a signal generator, etc, not any multi-kilowatt RF amplifier set up.

Could any of this information in any published papers be cited in the current article so that either FTL or longitudinal or scalar electromagnetics could be mentioned? Oldspammer (talk) 15:52, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Lead

The lead not very clear:
"Wireless power or wireless energy transmission is the transmission of electrical energy from a power source to an electrical load without man-made conductors. Wireless transmission is useful in cases where interconnecting wires are inconvenient, hazardous, or impossible. The problem of wireless power transmission differs from that of wireless telecommunications, such as radio. In the latter, the proportion of energy received becomes critical only if it is too low for the signal to be distinguished from the background noise. With wireless power, efficiency is the more significant parameter. A large part of the energy sent out by the generating plant must arrive at the receiver or receivers to make the system economical.

The most common form of wireless power transmission is carried out using direct induction followed by resonant magnetic induction. Other methods under consideration are electromagnetic radiation in the form of microwaves or lasers and electrical conduction through natural media. It's way too complicated. There is nothing wrong with using big or complex words. It has to be understandable though.--Wyn.junior (talk) 00:02, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Way too much Tesla

All of these additions seem to be a rehash of off topic material that the primary author, GLPeterson, seems to be shunting around Misplaced Pages, trying to find a home for it, re: at Wardenclyffe Tower and World Wireless System. I have noted the problems with this material before at Talk:Wardenclyffe Tower#"World Wireless System", "Variant receiver", "Particle beam invention" and some at Talk:World Wireless System#Capacity of Earth but the highlights of the problem here (as noted by others) is that this is way off topic for this article giving way too much WP:UNDUE to a Tesla historical dead end instead of covering the topic. There is also allot of opinion (more like wholesale POVPUSHes by "Tesla" authors such as Corum) being stated in Misplaced Pages's voice as fact, counter to WP:YESPOV. Articles and books on this topic note Tesla as a short and unsuccessful footnote in Wireless power, not the "go to" authority on the topic. A side problem, which may take us to a Noticeboard, maybe WP:NORN, is the fact that the editor is heavily excerpting and relying on/promoting/pushing publications from his own websites, tfcbooks.com and TESLARADIO.COM, which is getting to the point of violating WP:NOTMIRROR. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 02:12, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree. The text of the section seems to be trying to conceal the fact that most of the claims for this type of transmission were made by one man, Tesla, 115 years ago. The citations of Tesla's work often omit Tesla's name and the date to conceal the lack of other sources, and several of the citations don't have any scientific facts but are just Tesla's promotional speeches. This is rampant WP:UNDUE weight to a technological dead end, and clearly WP:POVPUSHing by Tesla enthusiasts. As WP editors, you should know better. You need to understand and respect WP's standards for WP:VERIFIABILITY. --Chetvorno 15:03, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
I have note the noted "concealing", pushing, rewording sections about specific "old" Tesla ideas into "some guy some time", and what seem to be bad faith edits/accusations of DAMAGING by GLPeterson. I also note the editors silence on this talk page. This falls into WP:DISRUPTSIGNS. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 16:49, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Yes, GLPeterson, rather than just reverting let's discuss this here. --Chetvorno 17:51, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
My feeling is this section, Electrical Conduction, is conflating two different technologies:
  • Resonant electromagnetic energy transfer - The various varieties of this are already discussed in the section Electrodynamic induction method and Resonant inductive coupling. Tesla's experiments used this, and perhaps he should be credited as inventor, but it doesn't involve conduction through the atmosphere or the other technologies which this section is about. The only non-Tesla sources in this section Wei, Leyh, and Kurs describe varieties of resonant energy transfer; they have nothing to do with atmospheric conduction. These are near field techniques, and cannot be used for long-distance power transfer as Tesla envisioned; the longest distance achieved in the sources, at low efficiency, was 20 meters, and more typical distances are 2 meters.
  • Tesla's atmospheric conduction ideas - This is supposed to be what this section is about: "disturbed charge of ground and air method" and "...electrical conduction and the flow of current through the upper atmospheric strata.... by the creation of capacitively coupled discharge plasma through the process of atmospheric ionization" and "terrestrial single-conductor surface wave or surface plasmon mode". The only sources supporting that RF energy can be transported in this way are Tesla's from 114 years ago. I don't see any hard evidence that Tesla accomplished any of this - his demonstrations of electric power transfer are accounted for by resonance, or perhaps ordinary radio waves - and no sources are given that any of this has been used for power transfer since. But the article describes them as if they are proven technologies. It should be rewritten to indicate their speculative and unproven nature.
--Chetvorno 18:47, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Agree. These sections need to be written using an independent secondary source. Chetvorno changes should be instituted along those lines. I have been rewriting Wardenclyffe Tower (sorry, its on a notepad right now) and have a few points. Per W. Bernard Carlson‎ Tesla: Inventor of the Electrical Age, and other source I have chased down, Tesla pursued:
  • a plan of wireless lighting - he was trying to develop a way to light gas-discharge lamps locally and develop that into something he could market. It worked, sorta, in the pics you see him holding a lit lamp in front of a curtain--> the curtain is hiding a big ass coil that had to be very close to the lamp to get it to work. He seems to have given up on the idea.
  • a plan of resonating the entire interior of the Earth. Pump it up with AC, create standing waves of power, tap it anywhere, modulate it through tuned circuits to also send messages.
  • a secondary plan (a return circuit?) (that he seemed to be building into Wardenclyffe Tower - hole in the top of the thing with ultraviolet lights mounted in it to ionize the air over it) to conduct electricity to a layer in the atmosphere that he was pretty sure was there. Per "Tesla's other widely-publicized proposal was based on a (wild) idea, first put forward by Mahlon Loomis, that a portion of the atmosphere could be employed as a naturally occurring transmission line. Like Loomis, Tesla was under the mistaken impression that an upper layer of the sky was usable as an electrical conductor to replace terrestrial power lines. The main difference between Loomis and Tesla was the former also thought that upper atmosphere could be treated like a battery that would provide unlimited amounts of electrical power. Tesla added the idea that, like a Geissler tube, the rarified air in the upper atmosphere would glow, providing outdoor nighttime illumination."
Tesla does not seem to have gotten any of this to work, but he was a true believer. He thought if he got the patents and built the prototype his backers would give him all the time in the world to get it to work, because he was sure it would work.
Side note. Teals was not trying to use "radio" so we may want to avoid calling it "Radio Frequency" (RF). He did not believe in that Hertzian crap and would be offended if anyone suggested he did. He believed (up to 1919) in his "True Wireless" system described above (see and Carlson) So "rewritten to indicate their speculative and unproven nature" and truncating it down to a small part of the article (this is just a footnote in history) is the way to go per RS out there---> unless there are more reliable sources out there. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 20:41, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, that sounds about right; a WP:NPOV view would describe it as a footnote in history. The info on Tesla is interesting; I'm glad someone is trying to get some accuracy into the Tesla articles. I don't know much about Tesla, but I know when an article is inadequately sourced. Some other issues:
  • What do you think should be done with the material on resonant power transfer? Considering its modern importance in RFID, smartcards and powering mobile devices, I think it should be expanded and have a dedicated section, instead of being lumped in with induction in the Electrodynamic induction method section.
  • Ironically, I think Tesla is not acknowledged enough in this article for his role in (short range) resonant power transfer, and his promotion of the idea of wireless power generally. Although his long range power transmission ideas were horse manure, his groundbreaking short range experiments founded the field, AFAIK.
  • The only piece of experimental evidence for Tesla's long distance transmission of power is his putative experiment in 1900 lighting 200 light bulbs at a distance of 23 miles, mentioned in the timeline. This article says it is probably a myth. Although Tesla kept meticulous lab notes of the period it is not mentioned, and there is no independent confirmation. Do you have any info about it?
  • I came across the article Kurt Van Voorhees, "Worldwide Wireless Power Prospects" in Thomas Valone, Ed. (2002) Harnessing the Wheelwork of Nature: Tesla's Science of Energy, p. 147. Although the rest of the book is pseudoscientific crap, this article seems to be a reasonably sober engineering assessment of the prospect of Tesla-type power transmission, published in Proc. of Int'l Energy Conversion Engineering Conference. Although of course it doesn't support Tesla's atmospheric conduction ideas, it examines the possibility of transmitting power by exciting resonant frequencies (Schumann resonances) of the Earth-ionosphere waveguide cavity by ELF waves using a Tesla-type transmitter. He concludes it is infeasable (but "promising"). Has a lot of detailed engineering data about Tesla's Wardenclyffe experiments.
--Chetvorno 06:36, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
I think a more realistic section covering RFID, smartcards and powering mobile devices would be an improvement. Tesla does have a place in the article and the current material should (maybe be deleted?) and replaced with something the general public can understand referenced to reliable source, instead of the bafflegab that makes up those sections right now. Any claim such as "23 miles" that can not be reliably referenced should be removed. We need to avoid (remove) all the material that is "Tesla said this - totally unrelated research describes that - therefore we are implying Tesla is correct by putting the two together" .... that stuff is WP:SYNTH. Proc. of Int'l Energy Conversion Engineering Conference would be good in its own section describing it. I would go ahead with edits like you mentioned since there is apparent 100% consensus on this page. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 01:29, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm Responding to WP:ELECTRONICS RfC. It looks like we have a WP:SUMMARY here and the problem is that some of the summaries are too long. The most obvious improvement is to remove the subsections from Wireless_power#Electrical_Conduction. Other long sections with a {{Main}} can also be trimmed. ~KvnG 13:26, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
How do you feel about the issue of sources? What's happening here is that Fountains of Bryn Mawr and I have been in an edit conflict with an editor GLPeterson. He has been reverting our efforts to rewrite the section Electrical Conduction but despite our invitations refuses to discuss it. Our feeling is that this section, which is about Tesla's 114 year old "atmospheric conduction" ideas, in essence has no credible RSs. There is no evidence that this type of power transmission has ever been demonstrated, or that it is the subject of current research. The only non-Tesla sources Wei, Leyh, and Kurs have nothing to do with "atmospheric" or "earth" transmission but are about power transfer by Resonant inductive coupling between tuned circuits, which is already covered in the Electrodynamic induction method section. This mechanism also accounts for Tesla's results. The section was written by GLPeterson as if these are proven, contemporary technologies for power transmission. We believe the NPOV is to rewrite it as a small historical section describing Tesla's ideas as a technology that didn't pan out. --Chetvorno 15:00, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Fountains of Bryn Mawr, been busy at work. I'm just trying to find sources, read up on Tesla's World Wireless ideas, before starting on the section. The info you gave above is great. --Chetvorno 19:12, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
No problem, been reading myself. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 22:55, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Does anyone else have an opinion on this issue? --Chetvorno 02:26, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Electrical Conduction removal

I am planning to remove the section "Electrical Conduction" with reference in talk for now on the grounds it is un-encyclopedic. This actually has to be a "thing" to be in Misplaced Pages. This does not reference a "thing" but instead a Nikola Tesla theory (which most main stream sources point to being bunk). Most of the references in this section point to Tesla primary theoretical sources or evaluations by "Tesla authors" of those sources but offer no real information that this was or is viable. There are NO main stream sources pointing out this is a "thing". Most of the section is written in the incorrect tone, per: WP:YESPOV, of stating (Tesla's) opinions as facts and stating seriously contested assertions (by Tesla's) as facts. The editor adding this material is citing collected publications on his own websites, including his own writings, as sources. This falls down to basic WP:V at this point unless "reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." can be cited. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 22:55, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree absolutely with the above on the removal of the existing section. --Chetvorno 00:43, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
As far as I know, it was a semi-legitimate system in the days before radio was invented. There's an experiment where they stick spikes in the ground, and were able to send information a fair distance (tens or hundreds of feet). I don't think it had anything to do with Tesla. I saw it demoed on one of those science documentaries (I think it was Shock and Awe: The Story of Electricity).GliderMaven (talk) 04:10, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Timeline of Wireless Power, 2008 Entry No. 3

"Efficient Wireless Transmission of Power Using Resonators with Coupled Electric Fields" by G. E. Leyh and M. D. Kennan, Nevada Lightning Laboratory, explores the use of a capacitive path between the top-loads of two grounded resonance transformers tuned to the same frequency as a means for transmitting electrical energy. "Figure 3 shows the Simplorer circuit model used for this evaluation, including the RF source, primary and secondary transmitting coils, lumped element components representing the mutual inductance and capacitance, primary and secondary receiving coils, and the resistive test load."  This diagram is identical to Tesla's circuit for the wireless transmission of electrical energy using the electrical conduction method.

Excerpts
"Tesla’s system minimizes radiated fields and instead relies upon actual conduction, replacing the transmission line with two non-wire conductors.  In this case one conductor is the Earth, and the other appears to be either a capacitive path or a direct ionized path to the ionosphere according to different descriptions of the system."

"Of the designs mentioned above, the approach outlined in this paper is perhaps most similar to Tesla’s system, since it does not rely upon far-field or radiated power, or magnetic coupling."

"The transfer of energy in this approach occurs primarily through the electric fields between the receiver and transmitter."

"We tested two extreme cases of grounding technique, one case where both transformers shared a long, single wire to Earth ground, and another case where each secondary had independent connections to ground, located 51 meters apart.  Both cases demonstrated nearly equal levels of coupling, with the independent grounding arrangement delivering about 2% less total output to Rload than the shared arrangement."

Conclusion
The Leyh-Kennan paper cited in the 2008 entry has everything to do with the electrical conduction method.  The transfer of energy is due to electrostatic resonant coupling, that is to say, displacement current by means of capacitive coupling between the two high potential elevated terminals and conventional current between the ground terminal electrodes associated with the two 1/4 wavelength helical resonator structures.

Respectfully and sincerely,
Gary Peterson, GPeterson (talk) 14:02, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

In Misplaced Pages we do not interpret scientific papers and draw "conclusions", such as one method is equivalent to another (see WP:PSTS). I have reworded the entry accordingly. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 18:30, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
I agree with the above. GPeterson, I respect Tesla's achievements, and they should be acknowledged in this article. And I think the Leyh paper has a place in this article. But I feel it is essential to distinguish what Tesla did from what he didn't do (or can't be confirmed to have done), and the limited nature of what he did. Both Tesla's documented demonstrations and the Leyh experiments worked by resonant coupled electric or magnetic fields, not conduction. These "near fields" cannot be used to transmit power long distances. However Tesla claimed in his patent to have another method, by which he could transmit power long distances, which involved ionic conduction through the atmosphere: "flow of electrical energy, by conduction, through the earth and the air". There seems to be no evidence that he or anyone else got this to work. The Leyh paper supports these points:
  • Tesla's patent claimed "Tesla’s system... relies upon actual conduction... In this case one conductor is the Earth, and the other appears to be either a capacitive path or a direct ionized path to the ionosphere according to different descriptions of the system." But if it used a "capacitive path" it wouldn't be "conduction" as stated in the patent. Note the paper gives no sources besides Tesla's patent that this was ever actually accomplished or any scientific opinion that it is feasible.
  • The Leyh experiments did not work by Tesla's "conduction" method but by resonant coupling: "This paper explores the potential of using coupled electric fields between two tuned resonant transformers as a means for transmitting considerable power (>500W) over laboratory-scale distances (5 to 20m)"   "However this approach differs significantly from Tesla’s patented system in two important ways: A) There is no ionized path between the devices,..."
  • "The approach outlined in this paper... does not rely upon far-field or radiated power..." So therefore Leyh's experiments, and Tesla's if they were similar, rely on near-field coupling and cannot be used for long distance transmission.
  • Leyh used a metal "curtain" shield to confirm the power transfer was not caused by current through the atmosphere: "Upon craning the curtain into position between the two coils, the received power dropped from 520 watts to 28 watts. After removing the curtain once again the received power returned to 520 watts, confirming that the electric field is in fact the principal source of coupling between the two coils." So in spite of the common ground, there was no "circuit" between the transmitter and receiver; "conduction" didn't play a part.
  • Your conclusion is correct that the Leyh experiments are due to electrostatic resonant coupling but this doesn't have anything to do with Tesla's "disturbed charge of ground and air" ideas. Displacement current is not the same as conduction current or ionization, it is not a current at all, but merely a changing electric field. Both Tesla's and Leyh's demonstrations come under the heading of ordinary resonant power transfer and have nothing to do with Tesla's patent claim of "...a propagation or flow of electrical energy, by conduction, through the earth and the air strata...".
--Chetvorno 20:29, 29 October 2014 (UTC)


Chris (User:Chetvorno),

Tesla wrote about instances in which the connection between the two elevated terminals is, in part, by electrostatic induction or capacitive coupling.

In some cases when small amounts of energy are required the high elevation of the terminals, and more particularly of the receiving – terminal D, may not be necessary, since, especially when the frequency of the currents is very high, a sufficient amount of energy may be collected at that terminal by electrostatic induction from the upper air strata, which are rendered conducting by the active terminal of the transmitter or through which the currents from the same are conveyed. —- SYSTEM OF TRANSMISSION OF ELECTRICAL ENERGY, Sept. 2, 1897, U.S. Patent No. 645,576, Mar. 20, 1900.

This means a wholly conductive path between the transmitting and the receiving stations is not an absolute requirement.  A portion the transmitter’s energy can be collected at the receiver by electrostatic induction alone.  This also suggests that a flow of energy may occur between two high-altitude ionized regions by means of electrostatic induction, that is to say, by so-called displacement current.  Once the initial station-to-upper-atmosphere connections are established by the means of displacement current followed by electrical conduction through the subsequent vertical ionized paths, each high-altitude ionized region grows in size in the direction of its counterpart with the passage of time.

I have likewise observed that this region of decidedly-noticeable influence continuously enlarges as time goes on, and the discharge is allowed to pass not unlike a conflagration which slowly spreads, this being possibly due to the gradual electrification or ionization of the air or to the formation of less insulating gaseous compounds. —- SYSTEM OF TRANSMISSION OF ELECTRICAL ENERGY, Sept. 2, 1897, U.S. Patent No. 645,576, Mar. 20, 1900.

Keep in mind also that a highly ionized path between the elevated terminal of the Tesla coil resonance transformer transmitter to the upper atmospheric strata may never be established, with the coupling being by electrostatic induction alone.

The earth is 4,000 miles radius.  Around this conducting earth is an atmosphere.  The earth is a conductor; the atmosphere above is a conductor, only there is a little stratum between the conducting atmosphere and the conducting earth which is insulating. . . . Now, you realize right away that if you set up differences of potential at one point, say, you will create in the media corresponding fluctuations of potential. But, since the distance from the earth's surface to the conducting atmosphere is minute, as compared with the distance of the receiver at 4,000 miles, say, you can readily see that the energy cannot travel along this curve and get there, but will be immediately transformed into conduction currents, and these currents will travel like currents over a wire with a return.  The energy will be recovered in the circuit, not by a beam that passes along this curve and is reflected and absorbed, . . . but it will travel by conduction and will be recovered in this way. -— Cooper, Drury W., internal document of the law firm Kerr, Page & Cooper, New York City, 1916.

You wrote:

> Tesla's patent claimed "Tesla’s system... relies upon actual conduction... In this case one conductor is the Earth, and the other appears to be either a capacitive path or a direct ionized path to the ionosphere according to different descriptions of the system." But if it used a "capacitive path" it wouldn't be "conduction" as stated in the patent.

In writing, "Tesla’s system . . . relies upon actual conduction. . . . In this case one conductor is the Earth, and the other appears to be either a capacitive path or a direct ionized path to the ionosphere according to different descriptions of the system" we learn that Greg has generalized the term "conduction" to include the passage of electrical energy by displacement current through that portion of the Figure 3. circuit labeled "C_coupled."

> Note the paper gives no sources besides Tesla's patent that this was ever actually accomplished or any scientific opinion that it is feasible.

You fail to recognize that Greg himself reports this accomplishment, reproduction of Tesla’s system for the transmission of electrical energy without wires, which relies upon actual conduction (Greg's words) one conductor being the earth and the other the capacitive path between the two elevated terminals.

"the independent grounding arrangement about 2% less total output to Rload than the shared arrangement."

Its being the first properly published report of empirical research into the Tesla wireless system and the study's successful outcome is why the paper is such a significant breakthrough.

> "The approach outlined in this paper... does not rely upon far-field or radiated power..." So therefore Leyh's experiments, and Tesla's if they were similar, rely on near-field coupling and cannot be used for long distance transmission.

Yes, Greg reported two differences between his approach and Tesla's.

A) There is no ionized path between the devices

Greg acknowledges that a "capacitive path" between the two elevated terminals is within the scope of Tesla's invention, as explained above, so difference "A" is not relevant to this discussion; Greg's setup and Tesla's setup are the same.  Greg's Tesla coil transmitter and his Tesla coil receiver were not spread farther apart because of the space limitation inside of the building in which the experiments were conducted.

B) The receiver performs a synchronous detection of the received energy in order to optimize conversion efficiency.

This is simply a means by which the alternating-current output of a Tesla coil receiving transformer may be changed to direct current; it too is not relevant to this discussion.

About Greg's use of the term "far-field or radiated power," while the configuration of the electromagnetic field associated with an ordinary radio antenna changes as it moves out of the near-field zone, as described by presently accepted antenna and propagation theory, the configuration of the electric field disturbance associated with a Tesla coil transmitter remains essentially unchanged as it moves out beyond the near-field zone, through the electromagnetic radiation far-field zone, all the way to the grounded, synchronized Tesla coil receiver.  Strictly speaking and convention aside, the Tesla wireless system cannot be described as a far-field system.  Also, in this case, "far-field" and "radiated" appear to be used as synonymous terms.

> Leyh used a metal "curtain" shield to confirm the power transfer was not caused by current through the atmosphere: "Upon craning the curtain into position between the two coils, the received power dropped from 520 watts to 28 watts. After removing the curtain once again the received power returned to 520 watts, confirming that the electric field is in fact the principal source of coupling between the two coils."

Greg wrote, "The transfer of energy in this approach occurs primarily through the electric fields between the receiver and transmitter."  That is to say, primarily by capacitive coupling and displacement current with slight magnetic field coupling.  Furthermore, Greg describes coupling by conduction through Earth between the two ground terminal electrodes.

> . . . So in spite of the common ground, there was no "circuit" between the transmitter and receiver; "conduction" didn't play a part.

First, there are two independent ground terminal electrodes; second, there are two paths over which the current passes, Earth and region above it. Break either of these connections and the circuit changes from "closed" to "open."  You know, like an on-off switch?

> . . . Both Tesla's and Leyh's demonstrations come under the heading of ordinary resonant power transfer and have nothing to do with Tesla's patent claim of ". . . a propagation or flow of electrical energy, by conduction, through the earth and the air strata. . . ."

Resonant power transfer is by definition electrodynamic induction, the wireless transmission of electrical energy between the two coils of a resonance transformer.  The predominant mode of energy transfer in Greg's demonstration cannot be resonant power transfer because he has provided empirical evidence the magnetic field coupling is not of sufficient strength to account for all of the power dissipated in Rload.

Regards,
Gary, GPeterson (talk) 06:39, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

These lengthy, confused efforts to reinterpret the Leyh paper to conflate two processes which are distinguished in the paper, atmospheric conduction and power transfer through coupled electric fields, are SYNTH and not relevant to WP per ASSERT and YESPOV. Again, displacement current is not "conduction", it is a changing electric field, see the article. If Tesla's power transmission took place by "coupled electric fields",  a "capacitive path",   "electrostatic induction", as Leyh's did, then it is ordinary electrostatic resonant power transfer and belongs in the Electrostatic induction method section and does not merit its own section. Note the section we are considering eliminating is titled "Electric Conduction".
Cheers, --Chetvorno 16:09, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
@ GPeterson. Your comparison of primary sourced Tesla material to primary sourced Greg Leyh/Mike Kennan material may be totally right or totally wrong. The problem is Misplaced Pages is not the place to publish your views/comparisons of primary sources. So your on the wrong track from the start. Also the Greg Leyh/Mike Kennan system is not the Tesla system. Tesla claimed his system worked primarily by ground conduction at any distance around the world. We have Chapter 13 and 14 of Tesla: Inventor of the Electrical Age By W. Bernard Carlson covering this. This world wide stationary wave system may have been a figment of Tesla's imagination. That is not what Greg Leyh/Mike Kennan came up with. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 02:42, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
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