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Is it WP:SYNTH to make an article on the Indo-Canadian population in Greater Vancouver separate from that of the Indo-Canadian population of British Columbia?

Related to the RFC at: Talk:Indo-Canadians#Merge_discussion: On whether Indo-Canadians in British Columbia and Indo-Canadians in Greater Vancouver be separate or should the latter be merged into the former...

Would it count as WP:SYNTH to have a dedicated article on the Indo-Canadian population of Metro Vancouver? (Vancouver, Surrey, and other Vancouver suburbs). There are books, articles, etc. focusing on Indo-Canadians in Metro Vancouver and there are books, articles, etc. focusing on Indo-Canadians in British Columbia. A Misplaced Pages editor believes that the Indo-Canadian communities in Metro Vancouver cannot be separated from those elsewhere in the province and therefore it's not appropriate to have a separate article focusing on those from Vancouver. WhisperToMe (talk) 06:19, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

That the query here can't even get the proper usage re Greater Vancouver correct for starters, "A wikipedia editor" who's from British Columbia and had lived in Greater Vancouver and the Lower Mainland for 40 years is who is saying that the history and society of Indo-Canadians and any other ethnic group in Vancouver can NOT be treated separately - as is being touted here by someone who didn't know anything about BC, or even the right term to use for Indo-Canadians, less than two weeks ago. \

Claiming that they can and should be treated separately is completely original research/synth and is being advanced by somebody without any deep knowledge of BC, of Indo-Canadian history/society, based apparently on cursory reading of titles only. The "in BC" title was seemingly created to prevent me moving the "in GV" title there asI I had done with another of his creations, formerly Germans in Vancouver.

Right now, though my original opposition to a separate "Asian Indians in Vancouver" title from the national Indo-Canadians title was the foundation of the merge discussion in question, with the huge amount of work this earnest young editor has amassed in the course of a mere few scant days, the more obvious POV fork separating/claiming that writing about "in BC" so as to include Greater Vancouver would be "original research" is the opposite of the case; in reality writing about such topics so as to limit them to Vancouver or Greater Vancouver as though they were separate or separable from BC-at-large contexts titling is where the original research lies. "but but but but" by pointing at and adding up titles to provide justification for this sophomoric separation is clear evidence of SYNTH;' not listening to but repeatedly rejecting the advice of a local editor of long standing is AGF, pure and simple; not listening to reason while scurrying around to find/fit guidelines and misuses of sources to justify bad ideas....well, that's just purely wikipedian. Skookum1 (talk) 07:07, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Skookum has a point does he not?♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:46, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I understand what his point is, but I believe his assertions are not supported by the literature. Take a look at these statistics on the Indo-Canadians in Vancouver:

• International Journal of Punjab Studies, Volume 2. Sage Publications, 1995. p. 178. "and also in the two largest populations of Sikhs outside of India — in Britain, in London, and in Canada, in Vancouver."
• Tucker, Alan. The Penguin Guide to Canada. Penguin Books, 1991. p. 539. "Vancouver has the largest overseas community of South Asians (from India, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka — many by way of Uganda or Fiji) outside of London, and the largest Sikh community outside of India." - See search page
• Todd, Douglas. "Mapping our ethnicity Part 1: South Asia in Surrey" (Archive). Vancouver Sun. May 2, 2012. Retrieved on October 23, 2014. "West Newton is where Metro Vancouver’s main annual Vaisakhi parade draws hundreds of thousands of Sikh and Hindu celebrants. It’s among the largest South Asian diaspora communities on the planet — second only to enclaves in London."

Second largest South Asian/Sikh diaspora after London... Those are some serious assertions of independent notability, aren't they?

When discussing the Irish immigration to New York state, would it be fair to say that New York City has its own distinct aspects of Irish immigration? Surely Irish people went elsewhere in the state. Surely Irish immigration elsewhere in the state can be discussed. That doesn't mean we should trash Irish in New York City which survived AFD back in 2007.

Misplaced Pages is not based not on the personal experiences of its editors. Let's take a look at WP:V: "Its content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors." - That's the reason why Skookum's argument is flawed. It is based on his experiences and beliefs and not what the literature actually says.

WhisperToMe (talk) 14:33, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Geezus "notability" is NOT the issue here, the context of the article is the issue; I've made that point over and over again and been buried by presumptions and dismissals and "refusing to listen" to an informed local. Indo-Canadian Surrey and Indo-Canadian Abbotsford, so to speak, cannot be separated as topics, for example. But tell that to someone who less than ten days had never heard of either place, much less knew the right term to use; plus condescending and patronizing lines like placate Skookum to show I'm not ignoring the rest of the province. (that was an early objection from him)..."early objection" being less than a few days ago, and in fact I'd commented on his ignorance of the rest of the province. More condescension: "why Skookum's argument is flawed. It is based on his experiences and beliefs and not what the literature actually says." My almost-59 years of experience but what I'm talking about is not BELIEFS which is utterly ludicrous to state; I'm talking facts; if the literature and its titling focus on the province's main metropolis is one thing, pretending that my informed advice is "flawed" when you're a complete neophyte on (a) Indo-Canadians and (b) British Columbia is insulting rubbish. I advised you that a province-wide article was the way to go rather than one limited to Greater Vancouver (actually your original title used "Vancouver" only) and you not only ignored me and went and created a POV fork and now are stonewalling and forum-shopping to maintain your agenda...which seems to be WP:OWN, over and and over again. Given your userpage says you are a "Young Adult" it seems that I am around FORTY YEARS OLDER THAN YOU, grew up in a town and went to a high school with many Indo-Canadians in it (Mission) your comments about my "experience and beliefs" being admissible is immature and pretentious beyond belief. You have commandeered a major topic and presumed to author it yourself, so rapidly I must wonder, in fact, about COPYVIO.....Skookum1 (talk) 15:00, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

More and more I'm of the opinion there should be a "knowledge test" and "logic test" for becoming an admin.... as well as basic courtesy rather than fake wikiquette...such as "respecting your elders".Skookum1 (talk) 15:04, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

If an article concept has independent notability then it should get its own article period.

Sir, your experiences are also not what determines the content of the articles: WP:V: "Its content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors." I think it's very regrettable that your argument is that your view is better because of who you are, not because of any reliable sources that have presented. This goes against the very principle of WP:V where who you are does not matter.

If you think there's a copyvio, please look at the sources and compare them to the article, and you tell me what they are. You can ask any people good at checking the sources and comparing them to the articles. Why not ask User:Moonriddengirl? She's very good at checking for these things so have her check Indo-Canadians in Greater Vancouver and Indo-Canadians in British Columbia. If you can't find any and if she can't find any, then that's that. I am very cautious and careful about avoiding close paraphrasing and I try my best to avoid it. If you cannot find any instances of COPYVIO, kindly stop the accusations. @Moonriddengirl:

WhisperToMe (talk) 15:14, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I find it "very disturbing" that someone who only found out about the proper term to use had commandeered a major topic by loading up on sources he's found without fully reading them, and ignoring advice on where and how to find other sources as to where to look for items on IC's beyond Greater Vancouver, and pompously lecturing me and patronizing me over and over again. I am not in range of any BC libraries (he knows I'm in Cambodia) and he's spent day and night for week "advancing his obstinacy" and making demands on my time that I do what he says WHY should I do that? If he wanted helpdoing the research he should have done before starting these articles at all he should have been more open to input from somebody actually FROM the places he's talking about. There are many aspects to this subject you have no clue about yet, some of the very politically volatile (e.g. Indo-Canadian crime for starters) ' IO referred you to local histories (meaning those of BC's other large centres, many of which have notable Indo-Canadian populations intrinsically connected to those in the Lower Mainland (Greater Vancouver/Fraser Valley); that I can't respond to your snap-of-the-fingers "show it to me now

WP:RX and http://reddit.com/r/scholar (no, that's not using Reddit as a source) can help you get whatever you need.

Now, I must defend WP:V as a core principle of this project. Thank you.

WhisperToMe (talk) 15:35, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Staying on topic, I think using the books of Kamala Elizabeth Nayar can find non-OR ways of distinguishing rural BC Indo-Canadians and Vancouver Indo-Canadians. This is one piece of evidence I have:

The Punjabis in British Columbia: p. : "There is a striking difference between Skeena Punjabis and urban Punjabis with respect to the fourth stageFor Punjabis living in large Canadian urban centres like Toronto and Vancouver,On the other hand, for those living in the Skeena region,"

She talks about the differences between urban and rural Indo-Canadians. She hasn't said "Vancouver" in isolation (she says it as an example of a large Canadian urban center) but I'll comb her works with a fine brush and see what I can find.

WhisperToMe (talk) 15:47, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

 Comment: As I thought: Nayar's book makes a point of specifically comparing Indo-Canadians in Vancouver to Indo-Canadians in Skeena.

• The Punjabis in British Columbia: p. xx.
  • "Not only do these internal migrants now face the hererogeneity of the Vancouver Punjabi community, but they encounter a different experience of multiculturalism from the one they encountered in Skeena."
  • "this study should prove useful not only to members of the Punjabi community in Canada, but also to Canadians in general because it provides a more comprehensive understanding of the socio-cultural and econoic dynamics of the Punjabi community in the Skeena region of northwestern BC and Metro Vancouver."

Now we have a book which intentionally discusses Vancouver in isolation and compares it to another BC community. The same person wrote a Vancouver-specific book, The Sikh Diaspora in Vancouver: Three Generations Amid Tradition, Modernity, and Multiculturalism. You can see a preview of the book. In fact:

• The preface in p. xi says: "This study examines the Sikh community's process of adaptation to Canadian society in Vancouver." and "Especially so, because the Sikh community in Vancouver is unique among South Asian communities in that many of its members hail from an agricultural society."

WhisperToMe (talk) 15:52, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

 Comment: Nayar, The Sikh Diaspora in Vancouver, p. 201: "In contrast to Sikhs in Vancouver, which has a large Sikh community, Sikhs in small towns throughout British Columbia interact far more with other communities." and "The Vancouver Sikh community is more insulated from the mainstream and is networked according to village and clan ties (partic-" (don't have the preview for p. 202-203) - If Nayar is making Vancouver Sikhs to be distinct, then it's not SYNTH to write an article specifically about the habits of Vancouver Sikhs. WhisperToMe (talk) 16:44, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

 Comment: Here is something interesting:

• Nayar, The Sikh Diaspora in Vancouver, p. 211. "Those who have been raised in Vancouver, who have experienced the world basically confined to that city, view multiculturalism as 'how things are' and 'necessarily good' because it allows people to keep their cultureIn contrast, those who have lived elsewhere - be it in England, Singapore, Hong Kong, small B.C. towns, or the United States - assess multiculturalism more critically." - Again, making Vancouver Sikhs a distinct topic
• Now here: Nayar, The Punjabis in British Columbia, p. 286-287. "Nayar's social-anthropological study - on the multifaceted process of the Vancouver Sikh community's adaptationthe Canadian-born generation living in Vancouver whose antecedents had originally settled in rural BC tended to assess Canada's policy of multiculturalism more critically than those born and raised in BC's Lower Mainland." - This is referring to the previous book The Sikh Diaspora in Vancouver and is in the footnotes.

WhisperToMe (talk) 17:19, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

• there does not appear to be SYN issue - multiple reliable sources specifically discussing population distinctions. The question is: "Can this aspect be covered appropriately in the 'parent level article' without creating an WP:UNDUE weight to the distinctions, or are there sufficient sources to create a valid spin out?" Misplaced Pages generally favors the spin out where there are sufficient sources to create content more than a stub paragraph, which appears to be the case here. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:32, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree that this isn't a synth/OR problem. I think that Skookum1 is not being very civil, and that his arguments from personal experience are obviously spurious, at its core the dispute isn't about original research, just demarcation. 0x0077BE 19:40, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

A new section was started on the talk page regarding "POV fork" Talk:Indo-Canadians_in_Greater_Vancouver#This is all the more reason for there to NOT be two articles. @Skookum1: WhisperToMe (talk) 06:21, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Denouncing my local knowledge and long wiki experience with BC history and geography articles, calling my arguments "spurious" is beneath comment; WTM has been arguing that his reading of titles (bear in mind there's now way he's read all the content of the masses of titles he's assembled in the last couple of week) to insist that Greater Vancouver Indo-Canadians be separately treated from non-Greater Vancouver (i.e. rest of British Columbia) because of his interpretations of lines like the one about small towns; Nanaimo and Abbotsford and Prince George are not "small towns"; and Abbotsford's Indo-Canadian community, like Mission's and Chilliwack's, is tied into that of Surrey and South Vancouver. "Small towns" means places like Gold River, Cowichan Lake, Campbell River and tinier places; WMT's interest in urban-only ethnic articles has seen him look for justification simply by scanning titles and apparent content, without actually knowing about the scope of BC geography to know what are appropriate division lines and, indeed, what is or is not "urban" and what and what is not "small town". Trying to reduce this argument here as dismissive of my informed advice as irrelevant to someone's scan of titles and loose grasp of the local reality as "OR" when in reality it is OR to use a scan of titles to justify and artificial separation of non-"Vancouver" articles, claiming some weird incarnation of UNDUE to also claim materials on Indo-Canadians limited to Greater Vancouver would be overwhelmed - how can he know, since his acquaintance with this topic, or anything about BC, or even the proper term to use, is less than a month old? And yes, it's about demarcation; there is nothing original research about my advice - and action - that this topic should take in the whole of British Columbia's Indo-Canadian experience, not segregate it based on some sole wikipedian's selection of literature on the subject; and if there is such a small amount of non-GV material, then there is no reason to segregate it in a splinter article, and that is a POV fork.

It's not like I can't produce reams of sources for Indo-Canadian history within local histories of BC, to dispute this b.s. about my informed input being OR, vs a neophyte on BC's scan of titles forming some logic in his mind that he assumes he's right but in reality had his mind made up all along. Rejecting advice (and correction of terms) about context and geography, he has turned to being dismissive of me, personally, in complete lack of good faith (or respect for someone from the place he's presuming to write about).

Being stubborn against informed advice is also UNCIVIL, no matter how seemingly politely put; WMT has been resistant to my input from the start, including arguing that his choice of original title was valid and that Canadian usages didn't count. The problem of the Abbotsford-Surrey connection (which is very strong) and the whole of Indo-Canadian life in the Lower Mainland (and Squamish, which is not part of the Lower Mainland but next to it) is not properly dealt with by WTM's obstinate rejection that the subject, despite his choice of titles to back up his assertions, can NOT be properly demarcated by the boundary of the city of Vancouver, by the boundary/definition of Greater Vancouver; it could be by titling Indo-Canadians in the Lower Mainland but I avoided that title because of the lack of familiarity of that term even in the rest of Canada; and did not see how or why the large Indo-Canadian element on Vancouver Island or in Prince George or the Okanagan could or should be omitted; even using the sources he's come up with. He uses the "small towns" argument without even knowing BC enough to know that Greater Vancouver isn't the only city, or what "small towns" means in the BC context.

The issue here is indeed of demarcation, and endless arenas of discussion have been made where WMT has been forum-shopping his argument; tell it often enough, it still will not make it true, or useful. This shouldn't be decided on titles of sources as if that's all that counted; claiming that it is, that is original research. A lot of the rest is just stubborn AGF.Skookum1 (talk) 14:49, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

It would have been helpful had the thread begun with a list of sources for "Indo-Canadians in Greater Vancouver." The sources I have seen presented here are two sources that refer to the number of Sikhs and South Asians in Vancouver, and articles/books about South Asians in Surrey and Sikhs in Vancouver. First, the fact a book refers to the number of Sikhs and South Asians in Vancouver does not establish notability as a topic. It could be the article about South Asians in Surrey justifies an article about South Asians in Surrey, but it appears to be a one off study. The wealth of sources about Sikhs in Vancouver might justify a separate article about them. But we cannot take a source about South Asians in Surrey and Sikhs in Vancouver and combine them into an article about South Asians in Greater Vancouver. So far the notability of the topic has not been established, no source has been presented that does that. TFD (talk) 15:25, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

@The Four Deuces: - Here's an entire bibliography that has works on British Columbia in general and the Vancouver area in particular. It's been established that:

• The vast majority of Indo-Canadians in Greater Vancouver are Punjabi Sikhs (p. 3/37) - So when you talk about Indo-Canadians in Vancouver area you are talking about Punjabi Sikhs. ("Indians in Vancouver mainly live in the suburb of Surrey, but can also be found throughout Vancouver. The vast majority of Vancouver Indians are of Sikh Punjabi origin.") = This one source establishes generally that = "Indians in Vancouver" = "Indians in Surrey" = "Indians in Greater Vancouver" = "Sikhs in Vancouver" etc.
• In this article from the Vancouver Sun an area of Surrey is "The pulsing heart of the South Asian community in Metro Vancouver" and the same map discusses "Metro Vancouver's South Asian community" and "In other words, the strong majority of residents were born either in India and Pakistan or descended from those who were. Most have roots in the Punjab region of northern India."
• Here is an article talking about Indo-Canadians moving from Vancouver to Surrey which is in the same metropolitan area - It's not in a vacuum and Vancouver and Surrey are clearly linked together - So from this point forward any study of any South Asian/Indo-Canadian/etc bolsters notability
• Immigration, Entrepreneurship, and the Family: Indo-Canadian Enterprise in the Construction Industry of Greater Vancouver
• “MY KIND OF BROWN”: INDO-CANADIAN YOUTH IDENTITY AND BELONGING IN GREATER VANCOUVER
• Ironside, Linda L. 1985. Chinese and Indo-Canadian Elites in Greater Vancouver: Their Views on Education. M.A. thesis, Simon Fraser University.
• Also: Indo-Canadians in Greater Vancouver : a Socio-economic Study by Mohinder Singh, National Association of Canadians of Origins in India. B.C. Chapter, 1981
• Johnston, Hugh. 1988. “The Development of Punjabi Community in Vancouver since 1961”. In Canadian Ethnic Studies, Vol. 20:2.
• Doreen M. Indra: "South Asian Stereotypes in the Vancouver Press"
• Class and Ethnicity: The Social Organization of Working Class East Indians in Vancouver

Also consider definitions - more or less "Indo-Canadian" and "South Asian" have the similar/same meaning:

• South Asian: "'South Asians' is a very broad category as it refers to people originally in the geographical area of South Asia, including India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka. 'South Asians' also refers to Indians who have migrated to other parts of the world such as Fiji, Malaysia, Hong Kong, and East Africa."
• Indo-Canadian: "The term 'Indo-Canadians' came into use in the 1980s as a result of the Canadian government's policy and ideology of multiculturalism. It refers to Canadian-born people whose origins are on the Indian subcontinent."
• East Indian: "The term “East Indian” is generally used in Canada to refer to “people whose roots are specifically in India”"

Is this enough or do you want more?

WhisperToMe (talk) 16:45, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

His original title was just re "Vancouver" and he argued that that meant, for every intents an purposes, Surrey and Richmond also in "global terms", and indeed globally, for simplicity, someone from Coquitlam might say when answering "where are you from?" while somewhere else, "Vancouver". But it is not correct in Misplaced Pages terms, as we do have existing parameters to distinguish between the CoV proper and Greater Vancouver which need to be respected (likewise the oft-fudged distinction between Greater Vancouver - the place - and Metro Vancouver - the dba name of the regional district government); but these existing wiki-geography conventions were not respected, or I suppose even known about, and were actually belittled by referring to foreign sources making general references as more valid than input from someone familiar with the local reality and with the wiki-precedents; for some foreign sources Whistler is also Vancouver, and some of them even think Vancouver is on "Victoria Island". Your point about tieing together articles on Surrey with articles on South Vancouver and SYNTHing that to justify a separate " Vancouver" article is well-taken, and applies also to my issue about that title not including Abbotsford-Mission and Chilliwack,which are part of the sam regional Indo-Canadian community as Newton (Surrey) and South Van et al; also the spurious reading of "small towns" to mean "everywhere that is not Vancouver" and the unsubstantiated claim that there's not enough on non-Vancouver topics to give them enough presence in the article sufficient to outweigh the UNDUE bulk about Vancouver....well, if you limit your search to Vancouver-only sources no wonder that would happen. A broader view of Indo-Canadian BC is needed; but being ardently resisted by someone who just found out the right term to use and has only just started reading up about BC, Indo-Canadian or otherwise.Skookum1 (talk) 05:23, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Another example of using isolated quotes from sources to SYNTH-justify the "two articles" position is the bit about "Skeena":

"Not only do these internal migrants now face the hererogeneity of the Vancouver Punjabi community, but they encounter a different experience of multiculturalism from the one they encountered in Skeena

Aside from commenting that "in the Skeena region" or "in the Skeena Country" or "in the Skeena Valley" is the proper usage (find me "Skeena" on the map as a standalone proper name, you won't), there is no way that comparison serves as justification for separating "Vancouver" content from the rest of BC; rather the opposite, in demonstrating the need for a provincially comprehensive focus to the subject at hand, not one rigidly limited to Vancouver. All this would be obvious to a British Columbian, but that very credential has seen me denounced as "original research" as if worthless. There is no logic to any of the long list of examples/arguments posted here, which he has also wallpaper on half-a-dozen other pages including the merge discussions he's choked with them.Skookum1 (talk) 05:29, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

I know this is a bit off topic, but regarding: "Aside from commenting that "in the Skeena region" or "in the Skeena Country" or "in the Skeena Valley" is the proper usage" - How do we know that?

• Here is an example: This source erroneously refers to the Museum of Fine Arts Houston being in "Montrose" - As a Houstonian I know that this is not the case, but my word is not enough. So what I do is link to another source that gives the correct location: "Museum District". Then I can refer to a map of the Montrose (the Museum won't fall in this map as it is at 1001 Bissonnet, Houston, Texas 77005). I provide evidence of the local knowledge I do have. Please keep this methodology in mind.

" also the spurious reading of "small towns" to mean "everywhere that is not Vancouver" " - There is no "spurious reading" of such, because the "small towns" means whatever Kamala Elizabeth Nayar means are "small towns" - and she's not meaning Abbotsford or Victoria, but places which do have small numbers of people. There never was any attempt to say that places like Abbotsford or Victoria were "small towns".

If a book author distinguishes it/says it's separate (Greater Vancouver from "rural BC" which does not include and does not have to include non-rural areas), it's not SYNTH (one person saying it's separate = acknowledgement that it is separate). it's a done deal.

"in demonstrating the need for a provincially comprehensive focus to the subject at hand, not one rigidly limited to Vancouver." - A provincially comprehensive focus is already possible at Indo-Canadians in British Columbia and it can be properly developed as such. It cannot tilt too much towards Vancouver or include too specific information.

WhisperToMe (talk) 17:02, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

"well, if you limit your search to Vancouver-only sources no wonder that would happen. " - I have enough "Vancouver-only sources" for 65,299 bytes of content (although it's not only readable prose) and the BC article has 37,650 bytes of content (although it's not only readable prose) - Do the math. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:00, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Using: User:Shubinator/DYKcheck#Prose_length: Indo-Canadians in Greater Vancouver is "21971 characters (3477 words) "readable prose size"" and Indo-Canadians in British Columbia is "12516 characters (1960 words) "readable prose size"" WhisperToMe (talk) 18:08, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

STOP - this is getting disruptive. The two of you are not going to convince each other that "I am right and you are wrong". Your argument has now spiraled onto at least three separate pages. PICK ONE... form an RFC in which you each state your position as best you can... and then shut up and let others comment. Blueboar (talk) 18:29, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

There is an ongoing RFC here: Talk:Indo-Canadians#Merge_discussion. How is this place? WhisperToMe (talk) 18:34, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

You opened TWO discussions here about this, and you have created multiple discussions on multiple talkpages, and invoked an RfC on the merge discussion you thwarted by ref-dumping and your ongoing circular arguments. I'm not the one being disruptive, and I'm not the one who brought this here (twice). You continue to promote your own misinterpretations/logics/extrapolations from what you have read so far, and continue to be dismissive towards input from someone who knows the geography. Being disruptive was you, making the second, unnecessary title, based on geographic divisions you don't even understand on a subject you've barely gotten your feet wet in. This board was never the appropriate place for this, and your original research/synth is a far bigger problem than you dumping on me for not out-reffing you; and yet all those links you wouldn't even have found without my correcting of your initial incorrect title/term. The division between Greater Vancouver and the rest of British Columbia is your own device, it's not borne out by your claims as to what the sources' titles and selected quotes mean, and you have obstinately rejected any discussion, rather sought to carpet-bomb discussion boards rather than listen. I repeat, I'm not the one being disruptive, I'm not the one committing SYNTH, I'm not the one reading things into WP:V/RS that aren't there (e.g. about "Skeena" and "small towns"), nor am I the one making the same arguments in ten different places where they don't belong.Skookum1 (talk) 02:50, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Should titles/focuses of articles be determined through reliable sources or personal experiences and opinions?

The debate from the section Misplaced Pages:No_original_research/Noticeboard#Is_it_WP:SYNTH_to_make_an_article_on_the_Indo-Canadian_population_in_Greater_Vancouver_separate_from_that_of_the_Indo-Canadian_population_of_British_Columbia.3F (regarding the split or merge of Indo-Canadians in Greater Vancouver and Indo-Canadians in British Columbia) has continued. I have not seen a change in how the arguments have played out. I have used the exact titles of Misplaced Pages:Reliable source publications as my rationale for having the two articles separated (some sources are about Indo-Canadians in Greater Vancouver and some sources are about Indo-Canadians in British Columbia) as well as the content of the said sources as my argument. The other Wikipedian continues to use his personal experiences and opinions as his main argument.

He also proceeded to move a similar article, Chinese in Greater Vancouver, which I created and sourced from various books and articles explicitly about the ethnic Chinese in Greater Vancouver in particular, to Chinese Canadians in British Columbia. Based on the other discussion regarding the Indo-Canadians, the Wikipedian knew that I would be opposed to this move. This is despite the fact that all of the sources I had used until then, including books, journal articles, and newspaper articles, were explicitly about the Chinese in Vancouver in particular and not Chinese in British Columbia in general. This is because he believes from his experiences and from his opinions that it is improper to have a Misplaced Pages article focusing on an ethnicity in a city in particular as opposed to a province/state/prefecture in general.

To better understand what I mean:

See example of his response to my post pointing out that the South China Morning Post has an entire section on the topic of "Chinese Canadians in Vancouver") - under the title "Hongcouver" - In response he stated "It's a classic example of intl media tub-thumping a cliche that's considered insensitive and not slightly offensive in Vancouver itself; but far be it from you to bother respecting local sensitivities or to show ANY awareness of the local contexts of the stuff you now presume to dictate about." No reliable sources were presented (While it may be true that Vancouver politicians have rallied against the use of "Hongcouver", he did not present any links to sources and I have been unsuccessful in finding any that discuss the BC politicians opposing "Hongcouver"'s use in National Geographic) WhisperToMe (talk) 06:04, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Consider this quote: Talk:Indo-Canadians_in_Greater_Vancouver#This_is_all_the_more_reason_for_there_to_NOT_be_two_articles

• "The Indo-Canadian experience and community you only know second-hand through your precious books; I'm personally interconnected to it and, as a long-standing BC editor who's contributed reams to Misplaced Pages about my home province, know what I'm talking about. YOU don't, no matter how many books or quotes your throw at me....or how many demands you make that *I* go find something to prove *my* case."

Here is my view on the matter: I thought we learned from the Essjay incident that relying only on "authority" and "who you are" was a bad idea and that we should focus on what the references say, with the references determining how the debate goes? In other words: The references determine the focus and title. If the sources have X title, the article has X title.

I thought that WP:V ("Misplaced Pages does not publish original research. Its content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors.") and Misplaced Pages:No original research were basic tenets of how we did things on Misplaced Pages. No matter where you are from or what experiences you have, you must obey these basic policies and use published sources as the basis for what you do on Misplaced Pages. @Skookum1: WhisperToMe (talk) 05:39, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Is anyone disagreeing with you (other than Skookum1) on the question of whether it would be OR to determine article titles or content based on personal experience? That's pretty much the definition of OR. I'm guessing it's not hard to find a consensus on that. 0x0077BE 11:58, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

The only participant at Talk:Indo-Canadians#Merge_discussion other than Skookum and I was a Wikipedian who stated:

• "Merge - I think that Indo-Canadians in Greater Vancouver should be merged into Indo-Canadians in British Columbia because their topic are related subjects that have a large overlap, as per WP:MERGE. Vancouver has more than half of the population of British Columbia and I haven't seen strong arguments that sources present the society or history of Indo-Canadians in Vancouver as much different from rest of Indo-Canadians in British Columbia."

AFAIK this post was made before I discovered the Kamala Elizabeth Nayar pages contrasting Vancouver Indo-Canadian life with that of "rural BC" Indo-Canadian life.

WhisperToMe (talk) 14:48, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

It's been several days. I think Moonriddengirl's post explains things very well. In the meantime, after lots of work from my end, the Indo-Canadians in Greater Vancouver article has grown so much. It would tip over the Indo-Canadians in British Columbia article with too much undue weight. WhisperToMe (talk) 13:47, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I see I was under discussion here but not properly notified, despite a ping that didn't work for some reason (which is not a proper notification per noticeboard guidelines). WMT has started so many discussions across numerous talkpages; including this one about 11, deluging them with the same SYNTH readings of his masses of cites, which in no way could he have possibly digested though using them to pad the articles and talkpages to advance his SYNTH/OR. I see he also presumes that "it's been several days" re the merge post which he follows up with yet another cherry-picked citation to justify what he wants/presumes; the nameless editor he cites there is quite right, "strong arguments that sources present the society or history of Indo-Canadians in Vancouver as much different from rest of Indo-Canadians in British Columbia." and his invocation of Nayar presupposes that anything that's not Greater Vancouver is "rural"; yet more SYNTH, and yet more extrapolation on a subject he's only just found out about and now has taken to WP:OWNership. As per comments on yet other pages in an exchange with {{ping|User:Antidiskriminator]] where the latter anaylzed his conduct and his anti-AGF towards me from the start, whatever others here want to say about my conduct/behaviour need to be reconsidered because of his massive onslaught of FORUMSHOPPING discussions and his BLUDGEONing of all discussions, including telling me on CANTALK that I "have no place here". But apparently massive SYNTH and bulldozing has a place in Misplaced Pages, and rationalizations to justify that are only more SYNTH; why he is so obsessed with these titles I do not know, he only started fire-bombing them in the last month, has rejected anything I have to say, plus demands I spend time on his behalf finding yet more citations on top of th mountains of them he has amassed, but cannot possibly have read or understood. The urban/rural paradigm he seems to think is important is grossly ill-informed, and he continues to ignore the reality that the very large Indo-Canadian community in Abbotsford-Mission, just outside of Greater Vancouver (which he wants to call "Vancouver") is part of the same subject matter; his creation of Indo-Canadians in British Columbia was solely to prevent me from moving Indo-Canadians in Greater Vancouver (originally titled by him "Asian Indians in Vancouver") to it, as pointed out by Antidiskriminator, as I had done already with his similar stub-startups on Chinese and German Canadians, both of which he presumes to say "in the absence of sources I will file a request to move them back" (to where he started them) - yet he barely knows where to look, other than the random cites he's put in the Chinese Canadian one to pad it out, plus an "indiscriminate collection" of whatever tidbits he's found, plus huge "Terminology" sections which are similar gatherings of indiscrminate information, except he's using them to advance name-disputes, i.e. OR/SYNTH in article space. There are no other "ethnic group by city" or "ethnic group by province" titles out there, other than maybe Anglo-Quebeckers (not an ethnicity btw). His ongoing pretentiousness and bulldozing and patronizing and obstinacy are the real issue here; I almost came to this board before he did, but dislike these arenas and have already too many discussions he's started and deluging to deal with.....I'm done, exhausted and now insulted "you dno't belong here" and feel he should be put to an ANI because of his conduct and his wallpapering of articles and titles with his obsession on these titles; that he's an admin and behaving like this is a joke, quite frankly. Because of him and his onslaughts and "walls of cites" on so many boards I've dewatchlisted WP:CANTALK for the first time since I joined Misplaced Pages, my own country-wikiproject's talkpage, which he has indundated with his puerile claims and ongoing filibustering, same as he did with the Indo-Canadians merge, which I've also de-watchlisted now because of him....I'v been blocked and threatened with bans for far less, that's for sure. I also am not going to watchlist this; I wasn't invited anyway.....but wanted to have my say and call him on his ongoing SYNTH which he just did above re the Nayar cite; Abbotsford-Mission is not "rural" and it's as much part of Indo-Canadian BC as anything in Greater Vancouver; his demarcation of the geography and society is based on ignorance and is completely OR...and no, I'm not going to spend 24x7 as he has done proving him wrong; anything I come up with he will SYNTH-interpret to suit himself, as he does on every page concerning this and related pages. There is support for the merge I proposed to deal with his GV POV fork title, but it's buried in his Walls-of-Text and masses of cites and ongiong argumentation to the piont that it's ridiculous. IMO he needs disciplining and a t opic ban, and should move onto other parts of the world where he can continue his "business" of writing "ethnicity by city" personal opuses. 13:21, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Jewish Messiah Claimants

Does the entry, Jewish Messiah Claimants contain a synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position as original research. If so, this content is prohibited on Misplaced Pages.

A review of the content and the Talk page suggests that both the criteria for being a Jewish Messiah Claimant and those listed as meeting that nebulous criteria are subjective in nature.

Being encyclopedic would require definitive citation of primary sources. --Lfrankbalm (talk) 02:43, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

I am altogether unclear about what POV you think the article indicates. If you disagree with the inclusion of any one particular person, discuss it on the talk page. Almost all criteria for inclusion in WP article content are somewhat subjective. WP is not produced by robots. DGG ( talk ) 16:41, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Spanish profanity

The "owners" of the page are completely oblivious to WP:NOR rules, ignoring my arguments, stonewalling the discussion and revert-warring the deletion of unreferenced text. talk archive shows that over the years several persons expressed their concern about this state of the page; in vain. Please intervene. I don't really care whether the article tells the truth how to say "fuck you" in Spanish in 12 different ways, but rules are rules. -M.Altenmann >t 05:55, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I replied on the page. Though I tend to agree with your position, both you and Mfarah are almost certainly guilty of engaging in an edit war there. Thankfully, it doesn't seem like the conversation has yet been diverted with a bunch of back-and-forth irrelevancies about who is guiltier of edit warring, though obviously neither of you should perform any more reversions at this point. 0x0077BE 19:13, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

So, your comment in talk page was ignored by page owners, just like mine and or several other wikipedians before me. Now what? -M.Altenmann >t 04:22, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Various at Homosexuality and Roman Catholicism

The disruption on Homosexuality and Roman Catholicism has really got out of hand, and I can't keep it contained myself. I'd like to draw the attention of other users to edits that eg. follow up a statement cited to a reliable secondary source with "Actually, the source is wrong because..." and attempt to use a news source's reference to a former nun's "vow of chastity", with no mention of her known female partner, as evidence that the sources talking about her lesbianism are wrong. Most recent diff is here.

Designed to remove any ambiguity about tolerance of homosexual orientation proceeding from the 1975 document Persona Humana and prompted by the growing influence of gay-accepting groups and clergy, writes John L. Allen, Jr., the letter was released on 1 October 1986 "in English rather than Italian, suggesting it was aimed especially at the United States". In reality, it appeared simultaneously on 31 October 1986 in many languages, including Italian and Latin, Italian, Spanish, and English, as confirmed also by John J. McNeill.

Jeanine Deckers (d. 1985), was known as The Singing Nun or Sœur Sourire, and was a Belgian singer-songwriter and at one time a member of the Dominican Order in Belgium as Sister Luc-Gabrielle. After leaving the order, she began a lesbian relationship with Annie Pécher. . She herself never admitted being a homosexual, and she was said to be maintaining a chaste life.

I would appreciate if other users would step in. There are obviously behavior issues here as well with edit-warring/SPA/stalking/refusal to accept edits from non-straight editors as valid, but I think these users would benefit from getting the explanation of the content issues from other editors as well. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:46, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

"In reality" stands out as inappropriate editorial commentary. As far as I can see, none of the refs cited specifically referred to correcting the previous source, which is what seems to be implied by "in reality". --BoboMeowCat (talk) 01:08, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. If it were another scholarly book that pointed out that Allen had made an error, that would be a completely different situation, but this is just editors trying to synthesize stuff because they think they know better. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:14, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I accept BoboMeowCat's correction, although I think that the contradiction between Allen's lone statement and the concordant testimony of all other sources should in some way be made explicit (WP:WEIGHT). Is there any problem with the text as it now stands?

Designed to remove any ambiguity about tolerance of homosexual orientation proceeding from the 1975 document Persona Humana and prompted by the growing influence of gay-accepting groups and clergy, writes John L. Allen, Jr., the letter was released on 1 October 1986 "in English rather than Italian, suggesting it was aimed especially at the United States". On the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons appeared on 31 October 1986 in many languages, including Italian and Latin, Italian, Spanish, and English,

Insisting that the cited newspapers and the book by McNeill are all out of step because not in step with Allen is ridiculous, and insisting that they should not even be mentioned is beyond being ridiculous. Esoglou (talk) 08:55, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Speaking of "behavior issues", I don't think it is at all acceptable to persistently delete from Misplaced Pages information based on cited reliable sources, in order to present as infallible incontrovertible truth what is stated in a book described by its own author (whom Roscelese presents as "the pope's biographer" rather than simply as the author of a biography of the pope that was not authorized by the pope and, in a sense, is not authorized even by the writer) as unbalanced, ill-informed, and veering off into judgement ahead of sober analysis! Esoglou (talk) 09:04, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the second complaint, I don't see on what grounds Roscelese says this book is too low-quality for citing on Misplaced Pages. Besides, the denial by Deckers that she was a homosexual is reported and indeed expressed more strongly by serious web-published sources (and is accepted by the editors of the French Misplaced Pages). The fact that a reliable source says Deckers was following a chaste lifestyle does seem relevant to the insertion in Misplaced Pages of a report that she was in a homosexual relationship. Esoglou (talk) 08:55, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't know anything about this dispute, but that book is probably a reliable resource. I can see why you'd think it might not be - it's written by a television producer who I'm guessing is some sort of Simon Cowell type given that he's on the cover flipping the bird, and Google inaccurately labels the book as "fiction". That said, the publisher seems reliable and the book doesn't seem like a joke. It's even got mainstream media coverage that describes it favorably as a curated collection of stories of "provocateurs". 0x0077BE 03:00, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

References

1. ^ John L. Allen, Benedict XVI: A Biography, Continuum, 2005
2. L'Osservatore Romano bearing the date 1 November 1986
3. L'Unità
4. La Stampa
5. La Repubblica
6. ABC
7. The San Bernardino County Sun, 31 October 1986
8. ^ John J. McNeill, The Church and the Homosexual, Preface to the Fourth Edition
9. Thierry Ardisson, Cyril Drouhet, Joseph Vebret, Dictionnaire des provocateurs (EDI8 - PLON, 2010, ISBN 978-2-25921285-4)
10. Gordy, Margaret (8 February 1979). "'Singing Nun' makes comeback". Youngstown Daily Vindicator. Retrieved 14 November 2014.
11. L'Osservatore Romano bearing the date 1 November 1986
12. L'Unità
13. La Stampa
14. La Repubblica
15. ABC
16. The San Bernardino County Sun, 31 October 1986

Suggested addition to WP:CALC

I'd like to propose adding a sentence to WP:CALC, warning about the potential for improper usage when calculating averages. This is an OR problem that arises all over the place, where editors just do the basic arithmetic, but fail to consider the condition of the source data. As an example, I brought up the issue here, where an editor claimed the term average was acceptable for annual mortality numbers, even though the data was highly skewed, the sources were cherry-picked, and most of the deaths counted were not independent events. (A somewhat related matter was discussed some time ago here, but that concerned appropriate usages of median with incomplete data.) Thoughts anyone? jxm (talk) 01:53, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

This question would probably be better at WT:NOR with an explicit proposal of new text. But I don't see it. An average is usually a routine calculation and is meaningful regardless of whether the events are independent or what their distribution is (you mentioned the normal distribution somewhere else; that is not needed). However, that doesn't necessarily mean it is a good idea to write the average in the article if it gives a wrong impression. For example, if 200 people died over a 200 day period, it is correct that on average 1 person died per day. However, if we knew that all 200 people died in a single incident, it would be very bad writing to call that "1 per day" even though it is. I think that example could fall foul of the requirement "meaningful reflection of the sources" at WP:CALC. To take this further, I think you need to propose an explicit wording change to WP:CALC and you should do that at WT:NOR with an explanation. I don't like your chances of finding a change that will get consensus. Zero 11:03, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

@jxm You make a good point that WP:CALC is frequently misinterpreted as justification for original research. This mistake is most often made by editors with a very incomplete understanding of data analysis and statistics. For example, what is the "average" of 2, 2, 2, 5, 989, 991, and 999? Is it 2? 5? Or is it 427? And this assumes that it is appropriate to even combine those numbers in the first place. Converting units and calculating ages are probably less likely to present problems. But "adding numbers" is very vague and is used as a justification for all kinds of original research. I agree that some disambiguation would be good to add to the policy. However, I think it would need to refer to a bit more than just averages. Onefireuser (talk) 15:59, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

My favorite one is that of a Polish cartoonist Zbigniew Lengren: a bio sketch the back cover of one of his books tabulated his stats thusly: "Age: 43, Books: 12, Children: 2, Pets: 1; Total: 58". Jokes aside, I would suggest the phrasing along the words:

"Routine calculation (averages, tallies, etc) is permitted whenever done in a customary way seen in the published sources, when there is a expectation that the input data are systematic and complete within a certain category, and when these calculations are used as an illustration of the conclusions already supported by the sources". -M.Altenmann >t 17:31, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Ah, this is all very helpful. If there are no objections, I'll use the text from Altenmann as the basis for a proposal at WP:NOR. I believe the approach of expanding on what "meaningful reflection of the sources" means is probably the correct hook to use here. I appreciate the suggestions for expanding the guidance beyond just averages, although this does seem to cause a lot of problems. On a side note, independence of events is a requirement in this area; as Zero has correctly illustrated, 200 people dying in a single incident should not be counted as 200 independent events. Also, recognizing some form of appropriate distribution is desirable, in order to avoid the excessive influence of outliers, as the example from Onefireuser indicates. However, I absolutely agree that these sorts of detail are not needed in the NOR guidelines. Thank you all for your feedback. jxm (talk) 23:57, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Electronic cigarette, a few questions on original research.

This is a question, and a tricky one. It is not part of a conflict, but it may become one. I am asking this question to find out if what I think is correct and avoid a conflict if I am wrong. I apologize in advance if this is in the wrong place and ask that if it is that someone please direct me to the correct place to ask.

The Electronic cigarette article has information in the article that there are multiple generations of the device. Each generation is very different from those before it using different components and different devices. The medical references state medical conclusions based on study of first generation devices. To my knowledge and extensive reading of the medical journal articles the majority of them are on first generation devices. I know of only one review that discussed the different generations:

• "Farsalinos KE, Spyrou A, Tsimopoulou K, Stefopoulos C, Romagna G, Voudris V (2014). "Nicotine absorption from electronic cigarette use: Comparison between first and new-generation devices"(#85 in the article references)
• a report "Hayden McRobbie, National Centre for Smoking Cessation and Training, 2014. Electronic cigarettes" (#86 in the article references)

These talk about the different generations, but do not specifically tie conclusions to any generation. The references inside the review and report cite studies that use only first generation devices to come to conclusions. There are presently 158 references in the article, at least half if not more are to medical journal articles.

The questions I have are:

• Is it OR to look at the references in a journal review article to see what specific hardware was used as the basis of conclusions when a reference number is cited in the journal article citing a study it is based on, and then note in the article what was tested to come to the conclusion?
• The same question but with journal articles on studies that say in the journal article what hardware was tested.
• Is it OR to lump all generations of devices in a statement in the WP article by omission of the generation of the hardware tested thereby attributing the findings to all generations?

Thank you for your time. AlbinoFerret 03:09, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

The article should use up to date review articles and then the issue of generations would disappear. The authors would know whether changes in electronic cigarettes would affect the findings. It is OR though to say that the research focused on early versions and therefore might no longer be valid, unless the review article says that. The WP:MEDRS guidelines might be helpful in evaluating sources. TFD (talk) 06:02, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

I have been over that page MEDRS a lot. The problem is the sources move slow and even the current ones seem to be focused on first generation devices. There are sources that talk about the manufacturing resulting in problems, citing first generation devices and thats left to be assumed to cover every generation. Can you please address the first two questions specifically as that may be the answer to the problem? if information on what hardware is tested it might be good. AlbinoFerret 06:14, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is an encyclopaedia, rather than a news service. If the sourcing necessary for such topics as these 'moves slow', then so be it - we don't sacrifice standards just to keep 'up to date' with every development. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:22, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, and I can understand that. But what would be helpful is if you could tell me if information about the hardware used, and cited in the source can be added to the claims in the WP article, and at what point does it become OR if it can, does it stop at the source quoted in WP, or can it go back to the source sited in the source used. AlbinoFerret 06:26, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

An example, A journal article in its methods says that 5 cartomisers were tested, and later makes a claim based on tests of those. The second example, is a review sites an study, in the study the hardware used is mentioned and a conclusion, but the review only repeats the conclusion and gives a citation back to the study. AlbinoFerret 06:32, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

You can only cite a source for what it says directly. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:46, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

So if I understand what your saying, only the first example is usable to say what hardware was used? AlbinoFerret 06:55, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes. AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:16, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, sets things strait in my head. AlbinoFerret 09:34, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Should we correct sources?

This is another question that relates to the Electronic cigarette article. The first question I asked here was very helpful, and the understanding I gained about OR and one source vs another that brings me here today.

There is an rfc ongoing on the specific term used to describe what is produced by a e-cigarette. The RFC is here. Its a pretty contested topic. But a concern has come to my mind. Should editors use one source to correct information that the source says is inaccurate, when writing claims based on another source? This is starting to sound more like OR as it goes along and not just rephrasing. The discussion has not turned to the question of if it is OR yet. I would like to confirm that what I think is OR is in fact OR before proceeding.

There are two sentences in the Ultrafine particles subsection of the Health effects section "The aerosol produced from an e-cigarette is frequently but inaccurately called vapor. Technically, a vapor is a substance in the gas phase whereas an aerosol (mist) is a suspension of tiny particles of liquid, solid or both within a gas." sourced to Cheng, a medical journal review. Can this source be used to change every other claim that uses another word to use aerosol or mist, what Chang and a few other reviews call the correct terms? AlbinoFerret 23:50, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

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