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Talk:Premiers and chief ministers of the Australian states and territories

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Coast

Why is there a line all along Australian coast in the map? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.117.55.134 (talk • contribs)

It shows the political party of the Prime Minister of Australia --Astrokey44 09:43, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The picture purportedly shows the political parties of the Premiers. Unfortunately, the "animated GIF" does not work at less than full size. Accordingly, I have removed it. The owner or others interested may care to offer a smaller version for use here. - Peter Ellis - Talk 18:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi Peter, it worked fine on my screen, and those discussing the image at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Australian politics#Genius image seem to be able to view it fine at the smaller size, were you giving it a bit of time to load? Thanks, WikiTownsvillian 00:26, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Works well for me too. I think we may be able to re-include it in the page. --Roisterer 01:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Where it says that the wall-to-wall Labour governments today are a first for any party co-alition, isn't 1969 the same, but with the co-alition? If so, how is it a first? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.164.139.168 (talk) 03:42, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I also noticed that, any ideas?123.243.36.192 (talk) 13:30, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
OK. Back in 1969-70, the NT and ACT had not achieved self-government. The coalition was in power in all 7 jurisdictions that were self-governing (federally and the 6 states). Since then the NT (1978) and ACT (1989) have come on line, and 2007 was the first time that a single party or coalition has held power in all 9 jurisdictions (federally, the 6 states and the 2 territories). That's how I read it. With today's result in WA, it's history now. -- JackofOz (talk) 05:53, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Animated graphic is wrong. It shows that in about 1968, there was a Liberal government in Queensland. This is incorrect. In 1968 there was a coalition of the Country Party and Liberal Party in Queensland, dominated by the Country Party. The Premier ( Leader of the Country Party ) died and the Governor appointed the Deputy Premier ( leader of the Liberal Party junior partner in the governing coalition ) as Premier, for one week until the Country Party MPs elected a new party leader, who became the new Premier. Although the short-term Premier was a Liberal Party member, the Country Party remained the dominant party of the Parliament and a majority membership of the Queensland Cabinet and Executive Council. It cannot therefore be said it was a Liberal Party government. It was still a Country/Liberal ( with the Country Party dominant ) coalition government. Eregli bob (talk) 04:09, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

More importantly there is now a liberal government in WA123.243.36.192 (talk) 10:05, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Removed template

I've removed Template:Australian premiers from the various state Premier pages. It seems pointless considering Template:AustralianPremiers covers each link that the first template does. Timeshift (talk) 07:54, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Financial mismanagement (Labor)

"Liberal government in coalition with the Nationals and independents. Coincidentally, this is the only state not to be running a budget deficit, demonstrating Labor's in-built financial mismanagement tendancy." Isn't this a little biased? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.134.131.75 (talk) 08:25, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the mining boom keeping their budget in the black is thanks to the former Labor government. Tax revenue downturns in a weakened economy puts budgets in to the red, not "Labor financial mismanagement" as if somehow all the state governments magically became inept at the same time when the GFC came along - what a coincidence. I've removed it from the article. Timeshift (talk) 09:29, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Prime Ministers

I've removed this paragraph - the heads of the colonial ministries (or governments) were never known as Prime Ministers - New Zealand changed the title from Premier to Prime Minister, but no Australian colony did the same.

In the 19th century the heads of the colonial ministries were commonly called Prime Ministers, since this was the term used in Britain (see Prime Minister of the United Kingdom), although the term Premier was also used. When the six colonies federated in 1901, it was realised that it would be confusing to have seven Prime Ministers in one country, and the term Premier became standardised. This practice may have been influenced by the example of Canada, which became a federation in 1867 and used the title of Premier for the heads of its provincial governments.

Quiensabe (talk) 22:35, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I'd strongly suggest you reverse that edit, as this tells us that, at least in NSW, the head of the colonial government was often known as the Prime Minister. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 22:59, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Norfolk Island

I'd just like to know why the Norfolk Island Chief Minister is not counted as a Chief Minister of a self governing Territory? Welshboyau11 (talk) 12:40, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps because it is not an internal territory and not a member of COAG. WWGB (talk) 13:06, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
That's the one. Timeshift (talk) 13:08, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
What's 'internal' got to do with it? Hawaii is external of the mainland United States, but still counted as the 50th state. Norfolk Island is also a COAG observer. Welshboyau11 (talk) 13:37, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
The fundamentals here: 1. It's a self-governing territory of Australia, with the same legal provisions as the NT and ACT under the Norfolk Island Act. The section says nothing about 'internal'. That is an absurd excuse. Welshboyau11 (talk) 13:40, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps we can reconsider this when Norfolk Island has Senators and MPs in Canberra? WWGB (talk) 14:00, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
It does. http://www.aec.gov.au/Enrolling_to_vote/special_category/Norfolk_Island_electors.htm I can't believe this is such an issue. I would have thought this would be fairly uncontroversial. Welshboyau11 (talk) 14:15, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Per other article disputes, please understand that not everyone agrees with your view. These distinctions have been around for years on wikipedia, vetted by many Australian editors. Why do you seem to be willing to unilaterally declare what is and isn't correct? Timeshift (talk) 14:36, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Sorry timeshift, what is it I said you dispute? The comments I made are factual based upon sourcesand reliable info, not views per se. I haven't had any other disputes you with except meat sock puppet Welshboyau11 (talk) 14:51, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
I honestly don't see what internal vs external has to do with it? Welshboyau11 (talk) 14:54, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Consensus can be wrong. The consensus used to be women couldn't vote, the consensus used to be behind the White Australia policy, discrimination against Indigenous Australians, and the consensus used to be homosexuality was illegal, dangerous and immoral. That doesen't make it right. Welshboyau11 (talk) 15:03, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Fortunately, the right/wrong and true/false paradigms have less to do with our deliberations here than with consensus, on the one hand, or verifiability, on the other. -- Jack of Oz 23:49, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Armbrust 11:19, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Premiers of the Australian states → First ministers of the Australian states – Article should be expanded to include both Premiers and Chief Ministers. The term is frequently used to refer to the sub-national heads of government such as during during this week's COAG meeting. As their is no separate page for Chief Minister, nor should there be as much would be duplicated, that information should be included on this page. This is only possible if the topic is broadened to include it. --Relisted. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:31, 10 May 2014 (UTC) --DilatoryRevolution (talk) 18:20, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Relisting comment: I will notify WP:AWNB.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:31, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. "The term is frequently used" is unconvincing. "ltr" and "mtr" are frequently used to refer to litres and metres but that doesn't mean it's correct to do so. The present name may have issues when referring to territories but is absolutely correct when referring to states. The proposed name is not correct at all. All 6 of the states have "Premiers" while only the 2 territories have "Chief Ministers" (not "First ministers"), so the proposal makes the name inaccurate for all 8 because of the minority. While "First ministers" is supposedly a better umbrella term, the proposal retains "states", even though the article is supposed to cover the territories. While the present title is accurate for the most part, the proposed title is not accurate at all. "Premiers and Chief Ministers of the Australian states and territories" is more accurate but too long for a title. That said, this article is in Category:Heads of government of Australian states and territories, so there's an option. --AussieLegend (✉) 01:54, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. I cannot recall ever hearing the term "first minister" used in this country. If we want to be more inclusive of the territories, I guess it could be renamed Premiers and chief ministers of the Australian states and territories, a bit of a mouthful but at least it's using the names people will expect to find.Kerry (talk) 03:48, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose as said above WP:COMMONNAME, would IMHO suggest that Cheif Ministers be excised from this article as the States are an independent entity who combined to create the Federal Government where as the Territories are sub entities of the Federal Government with conditional authority as aligned to LGA mayors in structure as they are to Premiers. Gnangarra 06:18, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME as well. I see no problem with a separate article for Chief Ministers, who have a distinct function from Premiers anyway. I have never heard "first minister" used to describe this position in Australia. Frickeg (talk) 08:55, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The proposed title still excludes the territories. If you want to include territories, there are better options such as Heads of government of Australian states and territories. Hack (talk) 03:06, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
    • I think using "heads of government" runs the risk of confusion with the governors (who are the head of government, as the Premiers' article points out our premiers are de facto heads of state). If we are going to stick to common usage (and everyone seems in agreement on that), then I think there are 3 options:
  1. call the article "Premiers and Chief Ministers of Australian states and territories" (all common usage terms)
  2. have two separate articles one for Premiers and one for Chief Ministers ( they would cross-link each mentioning the similar role that the other performs)
  3. just have the Premiers article that describes both roles (making distinctions where applicable) and making Chief Ministers of Australian Territories article a redirect to the Premiers article

Personally I would find any of these acceptable, but with a preference for the 1st and 3rd as they avois having two separate articles to keep mutually up-to-date Kerry (talk) 07:37, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Governors are not heads of government, they are heads of state by proxy, a la the Governor-General. Premiers and Chief Ministers are the heads of government. Frickeg (talk) 08:14, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
agree, Governors(inc GG) are the Queens representative as head of State, Premiers are head of Government for the States, Chief Ministers are head of government for some territories these two entities of government have significantly different legal powers and constitutional relationships to the Federal government and therefore should be treated separately from each other. Gnangarra 10:40, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

ACT minority government

OK, can someone please explain to me why pointing out that the ACT has a minority government with a non-Labor member is apparently controversial. The only reason that's been given is that the ACT has usually had minority governments (though not with members of other parties in cabinet, holding multiple ministries), but how on earth this constitutes a reason not to mention it is beyond me. I'm trying very hard to assume good faith, but I'm having trouble conceiving of how anyone other than a Labor partisan could have a problem with this edit.Colonial Overlord (talk) 06:28, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

First, you started off by saying ACT and SA were both minority govt. That's not the case, SA has a majority. The ACT is the only minority govt in Australia, and apart from one term, has always had a minority govt. You're left looking like you're defending your original incorrect edit. And don't throw accusations around, it won't help your case. I must say though, for someone claiming editors are partisan, you have some interesting edit summaries... "Stop adding the Liberal Party! It's not a socially conservative party." LOL!!! Timeshift (talk) 06:30, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Whether a government is in majority or minority has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of "Premiers of the Australian states" unless Shane Rattenbury got elected Chief Minister while I wasn't looking, and I see no reason to talk about irrelevant material in this article. Thanks for the heads up about the confirmation of Cook's win in Fisher, Timeshift. The Drover's Wife (talk) 06:50, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Firstly, I said in my edit summary that I made a mistake with SA. I'm hardly defending my original edit and it appears I'm not the only one "throwing accusations around".
Secondly, you still haven't addressed my point that the fact the ACT has usually had minority governments provides no reason whatsoever not to mention it in an encyclopedia. As I said, an encyclopedia should not assume that some fact is so obvious to everyone that it doesn't need to be stated.
Thirdly, you also didn't address the point that while minority governments may be common in the ACT, members of other parties in cabinet are not.
Fourthly, if you want to talk about the Liberal Party, might I suggest you do so on the appropriate talk page. I believe that would conform to wikipedia policy.Colonial Overlord (talk) 07:01, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
This article is not "Cabinets of the Australian states". It is "Premiers of the Australian states". You're yet to come within cooee of a relevance argument to put it in this article. The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:07, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
It is relevant to the claim in the article that SA, ACT and VIC "have Labor governments". I actually don't think the ACT government can be meaningfully described as a Labor government at all, but I settled for a note that it was minority. If you want to reword the section so it talks only about premiers, then there'd be no need to mention minority status.Colonial Overlord (talk) 07:10, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
I should also note that the justification for reverting my edit was not that it wa irrelevant, but that the ACT has always had minority governments. I was responding to the (IMO) absurdity of that as an argument.Colonial Overlord (talk) 07:14, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
SA and Vic have majority Labor governments, and referring to the ACT as anything but a Labor government because of Rattenbury is a bit of a stretch. I am yet to be convinced this is vaguely relevant. The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:28, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Why is it a stretch? The word "government" refers to all members of the ministry, not just the premier. Surely you wouldn't call the Abbott government a "Liberal government"; it is a "Coalition government". And anyway, even if the information is not completely relevant (which I don't accept) why are there such strong objections to including factual information?Colonial Overlord (talk) 07:43, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Actually you're right, minority status is not really relevant, so I have rephrased to refer only to cabinet composition. Given this, South Australia remains included unless and until the independent ministers are dismissed from cabinet.Colonial Overlord (talk) 11:21, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
How does that change relevance to this article? Again, gain consensus! Timeshift (talk) 15:02, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
All right, what's the objection now? Please try to make an actual argument, in the form "x, therefore y" and bearing in mind all the points I've raised above.Colonial Overlord (talk) 15:45, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
You've completely lost me with your claims as to why SA is not a Labor government. I think that one is firmly in the realms of original research at the best of times. The problem is that there aren't any points to bear in mind as to why this is actually relevant. The Drover's Wife (talk) 16:32, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
My edit did not remove the claim that it's a labor government; it merely added a line mentioning that it has non-Labor members of cabinet. I am completely lost as to why mentioning this information is controversial. Are you seriously saying that in a section about which states have labor governments, clarifying which ones are full labor governments and which ones have non-labor members is irrelevant?Colonial Overlord (talk) 00:26, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
Hello, Colonial Overlord, Timeshift9 and The Drover's Wife. I have received a message from Colonial Overlord from the Teahouse, and I would like to know what happened. Ping me. DEW. Adrenaline (Nahnah4) 06:39, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
@Nahnah4:, *raises eyebrow* - this discussion happened, and that is the sum total of it. Read it? The Drover's Wife (talk) 09:06, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
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