Talk:Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction

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This page was proposed for deletion by Lkahd (talk · contribs) in the past.
It was contested by Xoloz (talk · contribs)

Important points

After years of neglectence on Misplaced Pages I have made a long research and created this article I hope it will not be ruined like the others. So that is why I want to list some points.

1. Present article is not perfect it should be expanded and improved.

2. No nationalist users should be allowed to edit on this page or to make pointless discussions.

3. Neutral, not related ethnicity and non partisan users should edit this article in good faith.

4. This is the article of Muslim suffering so no other info about others suffering should be added. In no Greek or Armenian article are mentions of killed Muslims, they all have their own and this is the Muslim one.

5. Good admins and the community should work together to protect this article, protection is needed.

I hope that this article is not going to be ruined, thanks. Bangyulol (talk) 16:07, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks and congrats for the article. Although you have a number of sources you have cited only one in the article. Maybe you should use more inline citations. I hope to read more of your articles and your user page. Cheers. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 12:11, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

If you ruined another article why would you expect yours not to be destroyed? "Don't do to others what you don't want them to do to you." Take care. --212.174.190.23 (talk) 07:56, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Merge?

Massacres against Muslims during the Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire was created before this article and should be probably merged into it. Anybody against it?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:41, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

"Massacres against Muslims during the Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire" was created last week and both articles can be considered to be created concurrently. But the scope of this article is wider and it almost includes everything the other article has except for citing some Balkan Muslims and an opinion on McCarthy's impartiality. Thus if merged (not essential) this article should be kept and two sentences from the other article can be carried here. Of course the editor of the other article (User:DanielDemaret) has to be persuaded. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 19:32, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Support merge - Agree with Nedim on his points as well; the other article's title is also extremely clumsy. Ithinkicahn (talk) 06:57, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Support merge - This is user:DanielDemaret. No need to persuade me. Thank you for helping. I was despairing over the article I started, really. Star Lord - 星王 (talk) 10:32, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I would suggest to redirect the other article towards this. The other article has almost no content and this one has a better title. There were not only massacres but also mass population movements. Bangyulol (talk) 14:59, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that is right. I will perform merger shortly and redirect the other article here.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:54, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Support merge - I agree with this. Much of the information between these two articles are identical. I also have a hard time trying to find a definitive understanding of when the "Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire" began. I do feel that this is a topic that many Ottoman and Middle-Eastern historians tend to have disagreements over. I think this needs to be highlighted in this page. Étienne Dolet (talk) 08:06, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

POV in the Turkish-Armenian war section

I find this section in particular leaning towards the POV side. Unsourced claims of:

"During these times persecution of Muslims increased."
"During an Armenian revolt in Van most of the Muslims were killed..."
"Armenians committed large scale atrocities..."
"In the same time Armenian atrocities took place against the Muslims of Armenia proper..." Étienne Dolet (talk) 08:03, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Documents

There are so many Ottoman documents on atrocities committed on Muslims (Turks and Kurds) by Armenians transliterated to Latin letters. Like this one and this other one. They are two official Ottoman writs on Muslims killed, tortured, raped and abducted by Armenians in the villages of Van, dated 4 and 15 March 1915 respectively. In other words, more than one month before the legislation on the displacement of Ottoman Armenians was adopted and of course even more before the exodus, or tehcir began. There are, I am sure (because I have seen them using sources in Turkish in Misplaced Pages) among your Armenian editors who understand very well these texts. They could translate you some information from these pages; some of the scenes are too horrific for me to do so. --212.174.190.23 (talk) 08:34, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Dirsuptive reverts

I wonder what's the meaning was this unexplained revert ]. In case no decent explanation is given (multiple wp:or issues, wp:pov lead image, massive removals of sourced content & unencyclopedic pov descriptions lacking references) someone can easily assume that this equals wp:vandalism.Alexikoua (talk) 21:11, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Although editors have been invited to participate, the page is still subject to vandalism ] (massive removals with wrong edit summaries), perhaps another - more straight - way is needed to settle this.Alexikoua (talk) 11:43, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

To sum up, I don't see a reason to remove sources such as this one ] and this ]. Morevoer Cn taggs have been added in various parts where ref is needed and the pov tag needs to stay until the pov issues (pov claims included in the unreferenced parts) are addressed.Alexikoua (talk) 12:21, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Also, the lede map, needs to be verified. Off course if McCarthy, who is highly unreliable, is indeed the only source this needs to go.Alexikoua (talk) 12:27, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Per this unexplained edit summary ] (now claims that the Oxford University Press is an unreliable source, ybut yet refuses to comment here) editor leaves me no choice but to report his long term dirsuption.Alexikoua (talk) 11:47, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Bangyulol obvious pov pushing

Dear Alexikoua and other readers, I (Bangyulol) am very sorry but I find this edit summary very impolite "Bangyulol obvious pov pushing" as you may have realized that I was not the one who removed the "McCarthy is unreliable" and "in total 35 victims were reported" sentence. Neither was I obviously pushing pov or removing something. Also I sadly saw that Alexikoua did not correct this when he asked for page protection, I hope this behavior will not continue it is very unconstructive.

However after Alexikoua added the sentence " However, only 35 victims were reported in total" I did add the missing rest of the sentence. That 35 victims were reported out of "177 refugees" as without the full citation it could lead to wrong conclusions.

Thanks, bye. Bangyulol (talk) 15:55, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

(ignore trolling). Unfortunately personal opinion doesn't count here. By the way the above dif you point ] equals disruption, since a sourced part of the article was removed without the slightest explanation in order to present MacCarthy's view as a neutral one (i.e. pov pushing per edit summary).Alexikoua (talk) 19:49, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

According to this ], I'll focus on Gingeras' work (it has been also strangely removed as non-rs by Ithincan ], without explanation too):

Source]	Alexikoua's first version	Banyulol's version]	Alexikoua's second version]
"Statements gathered by Ottoman officials reveal, somewhat strangely, a fairly low number of casualties in this campaign of destruction. Of the 177 people responding, only twenty-eight individuals responded that they had family member harmed during the Greek occupation. In total only thirty-five were reported to have been killed, wounded, beaten, or missing. This is in line with the observations of Arnold Toynbee, who declared that one to two murders were sufficient to drive away the population of a village."	However, only 35 victims were reported in total.	An Ottoman enquiry to which only 177 survivors responded, stated that they had only 35 victims in total.	However, statements gathered by Ottoman official, reveal a relatevely low number of causalties: based on the Ottoman enquiry to which 177 survivors responded, only 35 were reported as killed, wounded or beaten or missing. This is also in accordance with Toynbee's accounts.

It seems clear that the author isn't surprised by the low number of the ones that responded to the questionnaire, but by the low number of the casaulties ("only" isn't placed for the 177 survivors in source, but for the 35 victims). Not to mention that this is in aggrement with Toynbee's accounts.Alexikoua (talk) 20:05, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Dear Alexikoua and other users, I repeat that I (Bangyulol) was not the one who removed the "McCarthy is unreliable" part neither did I remove "total 35 victims". That means I was not "pushing pov" or being disruptive. I find it very impolite of still being blamed of these edits I did not make. Unfortunately it is still not corrected by Alexikoua. Sadly this unconstructive behavior continues with describing my reply as "trolling". The sentences should be correctly cited from their sources. If there is still disagreement between users I suggest they should use WP:DISPUTE. Thanks, bye. Bangyulol (talk) 13:43, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

I can't see any alternative proposal so far, apart from commnenting on editors but not on content. The above table makes clear that the word "only" (highlighted) was intentionally put on a wrong position in order to manipulate the meaning.Alexikoua (talk) 14:29, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Dear readers, I have to disagree again with "to manipulate". The first addition by Alexikoua was incomplete and misleading because it didn't mention that it was based on 177 survivors. I think I have clarified this, please look at the above table. Bangyulol (talk) 12:58, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Obviously the final version mentions this number, per above table. I'm also not against the new adjustments in this part, which by the way, don't change the meaning.Alexikoua (talk) 15:13, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Reliability of J.Maccarthy

By doing a quich check in mainstream bibliography it appears that the specific author is the epitomy of pov ("the leading pro-Turkish scholar & genocide denialist"). To name a few examples: ]]]. Off course such 'scholars' can't pass wp:rs and should be treated with high precaution here.Alexikoua (talk) 19:30, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree that work of this author should be used with high precaution in this article. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:29, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

This source should be sent to WP:RSN. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:29, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Probably would not work. McCarthy is like someone who indulges in unspeakable perversions in secret but lead a highly respectable life in public. McCarthy's career as a genocide denier and professional liar, producing propaganda works for use by the Turkish state, runs parallel to his career as a legitimate academic producing works that are used by and cited by legitimate scholars. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 00:19, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Unexplained rvs

Per this ] an unlogged user insists that the participants of the Greek Revolution should be termed 'rebels'. However, per simple English the participants of a revolution should be called same way (revolution->revolutionaries). In case there is a decent argument against this I invite everyone to propose an adjustment in the lead of the correspodent article (i.e. to Greek Revolution -> Greek Rebellion).Alexikoua (talk) 14:11, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Abandoned monuments related to persecution

In general pictures of abandoned monuments/building are not necessary connected with campaigns of persecution or vandalism. A reference is needed here that points that a specific building was damaged as a result of this and not ruined in the course of time due to abandonment.Alexikoua (talk) 17:15, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. If there was any sort of systematic neglect towards this particular mosque, we need to have that source. Otherwise, it is WP:OR. Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:38, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

My feeling is that in a normal, non-propaganda filled article, (which this article currently is not). such photos could be used as a general illustration that certain Muslim communities have vanished from certain areas. And couldbe there even if they were ruined in the course of time due to abandonment. But until this article is brought back from the brink, I think such photos will only be misused if they are there. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 23:56, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Reading through the article, I wonder if maybe the best thing would be to try to be rid of it. It duplicates much of what is in Persecution of Muslims and it probably only exists for genocide denial purposes. Persecution of Muslims is as full of it as this article is, but dealing with one failed article is easier than dealing with two. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 00:12, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Appeal

Please, do not make unnecessary disputes/edit wars about the smallest dispute possible, mere words or pictures are not worth this. It would be more useful to add content and sources. Bangyulol (talk) 12:59, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Impact on Europe section

I have added an undue weight tag. The content is single-sourced, contentious, and very one-sided in tone. And very vague - "Massacres and expulsions" of what Christians, and were? "Massacres and expulsions of" what Muslims and where? And what has any alleged knowledge or lack of knowledge by the "Victorian public" about something (undefined) somewhere (undefined) got to do with the subject of this article anyway? The Ottoman empire was a large political unit - so of course news about its particular actions were widely reported and given prominance. The rulers of that "Victorian public" strived to prop up the Ottoman Empire for most of the 19thC, Queen Victoria was an avid supporter of Turkey, agitating for Britain to fight on its behalf in the 1870s (as it had done in the 1850s), and the Treaty of Berlin restored much lost territory to the Ottoman Empire. I already mentioned that I feel the tone and purpose of this article is propagandistic. Part of the wording of this section could be a verbatim quote from typical Turkish genocide denialist propaganda: "atrocities were committed by all sides". And does the existence of this section admit to the creation of a parallel section "Impact on Ottoman empire" that would detail the various massacres, oppressions, and expulsions the Ottoman authorites committed on its Christian subjects to terrorised them into submission lest they take the same route as the Balkan nations and fight and gain their freedom. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:49, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry I have to disagree, this sounds like your personal opinion, also Armenian Genocide is linked two times in the article. Bangyulol (talk) 12:39, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

An inability or unwillingness to respond to any of the points I made, makes your "I have to disagree" opinion meaningless and worthless. And there is also that little matter of you being a sockpuppet of a blocked user. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 18:52, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Motives for Armenian Genocide

Can I add a section highlighting the persecution, deportation and massacres of 19th Century Ottoman-muslims as a significant element in build up of bad blood between Christians and Muslims, that would then subsequent influence the Armenian Genocide? Oxr033 (talk) 21:11, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Legitimacy of article

Every event this article cites involves Christians, who were themselves being persecuted, fighting for self determination, which the article leaves out entirely. How ridiculous would a "Persecution of British" article look that lists events like the American/Scottish Independence Wars or Indian independence movement? This article is more or less an over exaggerated piece of propaganda. --Steverci (talk) 23:42, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

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