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Michaelch7 (talk · contribs)

Repeated personal attacks on myself, in regards to articles related to California State University. Has accused me of vandalizing on my talk page , and has continued to level accusations of vandalism and agenda pushing at me in other article discussions about CSU ( ) and in discussing the deletion of California State Normal School ( .) I placed an Npa-2 template on his talk page, and he responded by copying the exact same template on my User page . NeoChaosX 04:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Question by Reswobslc (talk · contribs)

I have presently been given a "third and final warning" by User:Jossi on my talk page about WP:NPA for referring to another editor's dialogue and actions as trolling. I declined to answer another editor's questions on a POV-heavy religion-related talk page, citing my belief that he was trolling, and when he carried that discussion over to my talk page, I referred to that action as trolling too. I was reprimanded for by Jossi in less than an hour for it. I understand (whether correctly or not) from WP:NPA#Examples_that_are_not_personal_attacks, that referring to an editor's actions as trolling is acceptable, while referring to an editor as a troll is not. While I also recognize that there's always a better way to say anything, it seems overreaching to receive warnings that I will be blocked predicated upon what I believe to be Jossi's personal criteria for a personal attack, rather than WP:NPA. It doesn't help any for me to have found that Jossi has been engaged in a debate at WP_talk:NPA, espousing a far broader and much more subjective definition of NPA than is accepted and posted. It doesn't help for me to see the existence of pages like WP:Don't be a dick, that appear to suggest that calling someone's behavior "being a dick" is sometimes OK while calling it trolling is not, on the basis of "don't be a dick" being different from "you are a dick". I don't claim to always have had clean hands (I recently called another editor a jerk and deserved the warning I got for it), but what I'd appreciate is an outside reference as to what extent the "trolling" comments I made violated both the letter and the spirit of WP:NPA, detached from Jossi's unique interpretation of it. (I have since changed the comments in question, but am asking for comments regarding the "hot potato" version here). Reswobslc 05:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Please note that this page is to request admin intervention in case of personal attacks, and not to discuss policy. If you are unclear or have questions about the WP:NPA policy, please take it to the talk page of that policy. If you have concerns about admin behavior, place a note at WP:AN. (Note to admins: this user was warned previously for personal attacks by User:Musical Linguist (diff), and by myself (diff), prior to this last warning he refers to.) ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I am here because I believe I am being personally attacked by Jossi. (Apparently characterizing actions are personal attacks, even if not mentioned at WP:NPA, otherwise I wouldn't be here complaining that I'm being accused of personal attacks for characterizing actions). While in the previous violation (where I mentioned I called someone a jerk, and is unrelated to the incident in question except that Jossi just brought it up), I was warned by User:Musical Linguist and then Jossi for violating the exact same policy on the exact same edit. In Jossi's unique way of counting violations, that one single edit constituted the grounds for warnings #1 and #2, just as though you got two speeding tickets for speeding past two cops sitting on the same street corner simply because they both saw you. Now Jossi apparently monitors my talk page, because for me to post a message on it to someone who was pestering me, essentially saying "Go away, don't post on my talk page, it's trolling, we have nothing to talk about" (exact text here), it takes Jossi only minutes to find it and decide that this is a personal attack (in spite of specific policy advice to the contrary). Looking at edit histories, Jossi and I have both edited Exmormonism, and also had opposing points of view regarding the actions of another editor who also edited Exmormonism, there's a possible source of POV differences that may explain this arbitrary apparent abuse of administrative power, and I don't really understand why Jossi is entitled to throw administrative weight around like that over such a petty difference with no accountability. Reswobslc 17:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

As said above, if you feel that I am abusing my admin privileges, you can place a note at WP:AN. If you are asserting that I am "personally attacking" you, please provide Diffs for these attacks. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I write as an administrator of over one year, but anonymously, as I have a direct interest in not getting sucked into this trivial confrontation that has escalated further than it needs to go.

I say it's trivial, because neither side is being constructive towards the mission of Misplaced Pages, and Misplaced Pages will not benefit from the "victory" of either party. Jossi, I am not sure why you're even engaging the discussion or even replying, as being an administrator you have much more to lose by doing so than Reswobsic, whose style I may not agree with but who does bring up some pretty persuasive arguments. Reswobsic, I am not sure why you're going to so much trouble over a warning. Well-placed or not, it's just a warning. You'll live. Every one of us at some point or another has been warned or blocked for something, often more than once, and yet it hasn't made us any less of a person, nor has been a reason to send us into a tail spin.

If I could suggest a resolution, I would suggest that you both simply walk away from the issue at hand, and that once the discussion is removed from this page, it's over. Jossi, if you feel so inclined, you may consider adjusting the warnings, perhaps to the standard templates, so they're no longer flame bait. Reswobsic, you should consider not pressing the issue, as you're drawing much more negative attention to yourself by doing so than the warnings could ever have brought you in the first place. 19:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, although I do not see the need for anonymity. As admins we ought to assume the responsibility of our comments. In rechecking the diffs, I see that I have warned this user for a PA violation that another admin already warned the user about. I will refactor my last warning to be just a 2nd warning. And to avoid further confrontation with this user, I will report any NPA violations in here rather than act on these myself. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The warnings are fine as they are - I don't need my talk page full of even more personal attack nonsense - these weren't personal attacks. Perhaps they'd all be best just removed or refactored, just to avoid the tendency of others to "miscount" my personal attack history, and block me upon the slightest violation under the assumption I've already been given my "last". It is the history that bothers me, and the idea that an admin can make it stick just for being part of the admin club (yet Jossi deletes my comments off his talk page and I can't do a thing about it). I don't really feel sorry for escalating it, as little abuses lead to big abuses when nobody says anything. But I suppose I shall resign myself to leaving it here, not taking it to WP:AN or wherever else, and perhaps if Jossi sees me doing another "personal attack", he can let another editor act upon it so I don't feel I'm being hounded by one guy and his POV. Thanks Reswobslc 19:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

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