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Categorisation

I was wondering what peoples opinions on the state of categorisation of poultry articles is presently. It strikes me as a confused mess. It's probably going to take quite a few merge and move discussions to clean it up, but as you can see by the categories box on this projects main page, the ones that appear at the top level are a bit confused. Anyone got any thoughts before I dig in and begin proposing changes? JTdale 14:36, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

I was thinking a good way to set up the top level categories might be;

Poultry

Chickens

Chicken breeds

Ducks

Duck breeds

Turkeys

Turkey breeds

Gamebirds

Poultry organisations

Poultry standards

Poultry stubs

WikiProject Poultry

Poultry diseases

Poultry farming

Poultry farming by country

Poultry in food (rename from Poultry Dishes)

Eggs in food (rename from Eggs (food)

Chicken dishes

Turkey dishes

Duck dishes

Fast-food poultry restaurants

Brand name poultry meat (renamed from Brand name poultry*)

* Due to brand name hybrids causing confusion

Hallo JTdale, I do the same work at de-wp and did not find the best conclusion, yet ;) Please be carefull with my "names". I am not a native english person...

There may be 4to5 groups of "Poultry" or "captive birds" (?):

1. domestic poultry (The "real" domesticated one, with all the show and (former) utility breeds) or only poltry with standards for fancying
   • Domesticated turkey, Domesticated guineafowl, Chicken, Domestic goose, Domestic duck, domesticated Japanese quail
2. fancy poultry / fancy fowl
   1. (Large) Chicken breeds
   2. Bantams
      1. (True bantams)
   3. Duck breeds (both ducks)
   4. Goose breeds (both geese)
   5. Turkey breeds
   6. (Domestic) Guinefowl
   7. (domesticated lines of the Japanese quail: somewhere with standard?)
3. commercial poultry (Hybrids for egg and meat production)
4. the Ornamental poultry (non domestic birds, but captive birds, for show or reproductive programms for reintroduction to the wild)
5. the Gamebirds for sports and meat (?, is it "Poultry"?)

1. Poultry keeping (inkl. poultry feeding, poultry housing, ...)
   1. Fancying
      1. Poultry standards and organisations (like EE, APA, ...) (breeding for show)
      2. Shows
   2. Poultry farming (not by country!) (utility, to earn money)
      1. breeding concerns and companies, like Lohmann Tierzucht GmbH, Natexis (Babcock, Hubbard, ISA Group), Hendrix/Nutreco, Babolna Tetra Kft., MSD Sharp & Dohme/Aventis, Tyson Foods, Aviagen (Arbor Acres, Indian River, Ross).
      2. used Hybrids (products)
      3. keeping concerns and companies (producing eggs or meat)
   3. People (like, de:Bruno Dürigen, de:Robert Oettel, ...)
   4. Poultry diseases (important for both, farming and fancying)
   5. (poultry red mite, poultry-house moth, tropical poultry mite, ... )

1. Poultry Products
   1. Eggs
      1. Egg dishes
   2. Meat (poultry liver, poultry meal,
      1. Chicken dishes
      2. Turkey dishes
      3. Duck dishes
      4. geese ...
      5. Guinefowl ...
      6. quail ...
      7. pheasant ...
      8. ...
      9. Fast-food poultry restaurants
         1. Brand name poultry meat (renamed from Brand name poultry*)
   3. Feathers
   4. Guano (?), Poultry litter

Last but not least, categories for maintenance, only

• Poultry stubs
• WikiProject Poultry

I do get confused with Category:Poultry organizations. What is it for? There are fast-food-restaurants and fany assiciations like the American Bantam Association in one Category? What do they have in common? I'd split them into food/products + breeders/commercial + fancyassociations/non-commercial. --PigeonIP (talk) 18:01, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Agreed on poultry organisations. It is a confusing mess. I will go and fix that up now and make a Poultry companies category to stick all the rest in. The rest of these suggestions I'll have to go through more intently but good ideas from a quick gaze. JTdale 15:23, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I did change domestic and fancy poultry. Maybe fancy and commercial are subcategories of "domestic", but I'd prefer to keep a flat tree.

Next to gamebirds: we also, have to keep the Ostrich (Meat, feathers, eggs(?)), Emu, Greater rhea and Darwin's rhea in mind. I know, there are Ostrich-farms; there may also be captive Emu and Rhea's for meat. But step by step... --PigeonIP (talk) 15:57, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I've cleaned up category:Poultry organizations, created category:Poultry companies, category:Poultry research institutes and category:Poultry fancy organizations, moved category:Fast-food poultry restaurants into Poultry Companies, and moved a few articles from the top level category category:Poultry to relevant categories. JTdale 16:09, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Animal breed disambiguation

Misplaced Pages talk:Article titles#Toward a standard for disambiguating titles of articles on domestic animal breeds may be of interest to editors here.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  23:08, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

I'll give it a read. By the way, in that big name-title move on chicken articles you managed to extremely stuff up the Australian Game redirects; Australian Pit Game is different breed. JTdale 11:20, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Breeds and names

My English is not up to a "writing articles"-standard --> I won't write them. But I my mention here what comes to mind:

• Appenzeller chicken --> The Appezeller is not a breed with two variations, the Appenzeller Spitzhauben (pl)/Appenzeller Spitzhaube (sing) and the Appenzeller Barthühner/Appenzeller Barthuhn are two seperate breeds. There is no breed "Appenzeller Huhn" ("Appenzeller chicken")
• Schweizer chicken aargh, there is translation into English, so it may be Schweizerhuhn (linke in German).

If this Misplaced Pages talk:Article titles#Toward a standard for disambiguating titles of articles on domestic animal breeds does not get through, I'd like to undo all the x (chicken) --> x chicken and x (pigeon) --> x pigeon moves.

If you are not shure which breed-name to choose, or which translation: please have a look at www.entente-ee.com/deutsch/sparten/gefluegel/dateien/2013/Verzeichnis%20R%20F%2028042013.xls (all breeds, colours and variations that do have a standard within the European Association) I do use it for categorisation on Commons.

--PigeonIP (talk) 16:10, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

In the english speaking world at least, we group them as one breed. The english world has done similar with Belgian Bantams, which I don't believe are considered one breed in their home country. Interesting to note that ... and I'm not sure on the best procedure there. Might be worth splitting the article and having Appenzeller chicken be dab? On Schweizer, I am not familiar with the breed but google brings up this. JTdale 16:38, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Than please go with "Swiss Chicken" with redirect from Schweizerhuhn and don't mix languages. (for me, it is strange)

Appenzeller: At least in the UK, they should know both breeds (as breeds, not varieties). Some day, they shall use the EE-standard, only. First conclusion may be two passages in that article. But to create interwikis with wikidata may become a problem, someday.

The example for merging breeds I know, is the Polish chicken, that are Padovana chicken (italian) and commons:Hollands kuifhoen in continental Europe.

Belgian Bantams: Barbue d'Everberg, Barbue du Grubbe, Barbue d'Uccle and Barbue d'Anvers??? OK, the turkey-problem is smooth and easy....

Maybe you do know: Schalaster (cropper/pouter) breed or variety? --PigeonIP (talk) 18:35, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

The problem is in the west, we do mix languages ALOT in naming things. Some things we translate like Malay Game, others we do not, like Ayam Cemani (literally "black chicken") and who knows why. It appears Schweizer is generally accepted as the right name. JTdale 21:23, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

"Schweizer" is fine, as well as Schweizer (chicken). I do have a problem with the de-en-mix. "Ayam Cemani", "Shamo"... all the same in German ;) (this are mostly the last/newly accepted breeds with no need for translation)--PigeonIP (talk) 21:45, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

I understand what you mean, but in English that happens. English as a language has never had much care for what its steals, mixes and messes up from other languages. JTdale 05:11, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

I know, but as long as there is no "official" english name of the breed, I'd choose the original language ("Schweizer" or "Schweizerhuhn") over a private(?, who is raising-chickens.org) translation. And raising-chickens.org also names it Swiss Chicken. I hate it, when WP is used to establish a name. (that problem may be more significant with companies and promotion, but applies here as well - or I am too much of a purist.)

Maybe my initial problem is

Is "chicken" (or "pigeon", "bantam", "fowl", ...) a part of the breeds (official) name?

Last year I tried to sort this out while moving pigeon breeds, where "pigeon" is part of the breeds name, like the Ice Pigeon to a Pigeon-article name. And breeds without "pigeon" in the name to (pigeon)-article names, like Jacobin (pigeon). That left pigeon-article-names to be checked, whether "pigeon" is part of the breeds name or "pigeon" is not part of it. I thougt it worked well. Nevertheless, all that work went to hell, as you can see in Category:Domesticated pigeon breeds.

 Befor SMcCandlish showed up, there was a handable system:

1. Ice Pigeon: "pigeon" is part of the name of the breed.
2. Jacobin (pigeon): "pigeon" is not part of the breeds name.
3. Dragoon pigeon: check out, if "pigeon" is part of the breeds name or not.

That system worked for others as well. In Old English Pheasant fowl "Fowl" is part of the breeds name and it should be Old English Pheasant Fowl but it is not, because there was a "typo"... .--PigeonIP (talk) 08:22, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Some of these are now being discussed at Talk:Teeswater sheep (yeah, don't ask!). I'll try to put the full list there in the next day or two; it's time-consumng work. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:26, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Requesting multiple page moves on pigeon breeds

have a look at Talk:Strasser pigeon --PigeonIP (talk) 21:41, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Indian Runner duck

The Indian Runner duck has a taxobox. Is there a better infobox? {{Infobox poultry breed}} ? --PigeonIP (talk) 16:00, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I think that'd be the correct one. JTdale 16:13, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Need help with it ;) --PigeonIP (talk) 17:34, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Looks like I can't do it. The infobox poultry is messed up and will only be usable with chickens right now ... going to try and work out what is wrong there. JTdale 19:34, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I've now done that, now possible after my fiddling about with the infobox. Now there's just the question of the content there to deal with. I thought at first it was copied from somewhere, but I've come to think it's someone's school essay. In any case, it is nothing like an encyclopaedic article. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:15, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Naming - Domesticated vs domestic

I was wondering what the best course of action on this is. Presently we have the articles Domesticated turkey, Domesticated guineafowl, Domestic geese and Domestic Duck. Wouldn't a standardisation on which is the proper version to use be a good idea? I'm not particular with MoS procedures, so if people would like to comment that'd be great. JTdale 06:20, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• Domestic chicken by ICZN
• Domestic cat, Domestic dog by ICZN

So, I am tempted to go with

• Domestic turkey (dnr.sc.gov, oardc.ohio-state.edu; 51.400.000 hits for "domestiv t." > 1.720.000 google hits for "domesticated t.", that is 30:1) and
• Domestic guineafowl (232.000 for "domestic g." > 74.300 for "domesticated g.", that is 3:1)
• (and Domestic duck)

but I am no biologist. --PigeonIP (talk) 12:29, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree that standardization would be an improvement. To my mind, the term "domesticated" implies that the process has finished. Of course it has not, because we are continuing to artificially select our animals. For this reason alone, I would support "Domestic" (however, I would not argue for this strongly).__DrChrissy (talk) 11:08, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree too, though for slightly different reasons: "domesticated" is applied to wild species, "domestic" to those that co-habit with man, e.g., "the domestic chicken is a domesticated Junglefowl". "Domestic" it what is used in WP:RS such as, notably, the Domestic Animal Diversity Information System for farm animal genetic resources of the FAO. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:11, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Cornish (Cornish chicken(sic!) and Cornish game hen)

see Talk:Cornish chicken#Merge with Cornish game hen

Maybe it is better to write two articles about the Indian Game and the (american) Cornish (and Jubilee?). The FAO knows Indian Game AND Cornish in the UK --> DAD-IS: Cornish Game (Large)/United Kingdom Cornish Game (miniature)/United Kingdom Indian Game and in that list are a lot of other Cornish-breeds...

or ignore that person and delete the "merge"-template in both articles. --PigeonIP (talk) 10:30, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

FAO can be reaaally unreliable as most of the time governments tend to just write in names without actual understanding. Generally I've actually seen the 3rd world countries taking more care with it. But anyway I agree with the merger proposal. Cornish game hen as its own article is pretty useless. JTdale 12:49, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

fancy chicken and (the usage of) cross breed(s) in one article? --PigeonIP (talk) 10:57, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

When they are so closely related, with no real notability for Cornish Game hen to be given its own article, a merge would be appropriate in my opinion. JTdale 06:55, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I've replied there. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:52, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

FYI: new image of the conformation of chicken

Maybe you like to translate it, or use it in an article --PigeonIP (talk) 10:57, 2 August 2014 (UTC) another one --PigeonIP (talk) 11:00, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Burford Brown

Any thoughts about this? As far as I can see, it's someone's registered brand name for both some rather expensive brown eggs and some rather expensive brown hens. There's been some successful marketing, but I don't see why we need to be part of that. I can't see any evidence that it should be considered a chicken breed. Thoughts? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:19, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

they are hybrids, no breeds , maybe there are better sources out there. I would like it, if the article could get more critical and could correct some trade-mark-commercial-fairytales. Maybe that would make the marketing a little less successful? More so than deleting the article? --PigeonIP (talk) 19:53, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Looks like a simple commercial hybrid of no real notability to me. I'd recommend nominating for deletion. JTdale 07:17, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I thought of that. However, it's quite clearly notable, as a brand of eggs if not as chicken hybrid, so would definitely pass WP:GNG. I have an alternative suggestion: a catch-all article on, say, Commercial and industrial chicken hybrids, to which things like this, Dekalb Amberlink, Miss Pepperpot, Daisy Belle and so on could become redirects. That would also provide a sensible destination for the salvageable material from Cornish game hen. However, I have neither the knowledge nor the sympathy even to start such an article. Anyone else? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:24, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Might be better to create something like a "List of commercial chicken hybrids" or something perhaps? JTdale 09:28, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Buff turkeys

Is someone fit and willing to sort them out?

There is a mix of the breeds "Jersey Buff" (fao Jersey Buff/US) and "Buff"(fao Buff/US) that are handled as two separate breeds in the US. Regarding the FAO a turkey called "Buff" is also an English indigenous breed. The Irish and Australian do know a "Buff" (UK or US type, or an own Australian one?) as well. There is a also a buff variation of the Deutsche Pute and the Czech Turkey, but that may go too far. --PigeonIP (talk) 14:06, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

There is nothing in that DAD FAO page which asserts that this is a distinct Buff breed from the one also present in the U.S. and Australia. The DAD makes separate statistics pages for each country, even if the breed is spread across countries. Steven Walling • talk 22:03, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

• Buff (UK)
• Jersey Buff (US)

And yes, that is, why I asked for someone who knows his turkeys. I never told anyone, the "Buff" in the UK, US, Australia and Ireland are different breeds. (especially that the Irish is different from British is highly unlikely) But it is a possibility you have to look for. (remember: the Pekin of the APA is another duck breed than the Pekin of the PCGB) --PigeonIP (talk) 22:40, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Australian Poultry Standard doesn't define turkey varieties as breeds. It lists all of them under one "Turkey" breed as colours. Buff standard is as follows;

"Male and female: Plumage: a deep cinnamon brown, free from cream. Primaries and secondarieS: white, free of buff markings. Beak: Light horn. Eyes: iris dark hazel, pupil blue-black. Legs and feet: pink and flesh." JTdale 05:39, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. The German has 1 breed in 12 varieties, with differences in weight and plumage (3 heavy, 3 middle, 6 light) The Buff is a light one.

sv-puten-perlhuhn.de

"The whole plumage is a beautiful, rich ocher yellow with deep yellow under feathers. Runs flesh-colored to light red.

Severe faults: White Under plumage, dull plumage, too bright wings.

Weight: young stag: 6-7 kg; mature stag: 7-8 kg, young hens: 4-5 kg, mature hens: 4-5 kg"

from 1945 on, the buff, red and bronce were developed out of the older bronce type.

turkeyclub.org.uk about the Buff:

"The Buff is named for the rich cinnamon colour of its body feathers. The breed was recognized by the American Poultry Association in 1874 but very few now exist in America and there is no longer a standard for it there.

Mature stag: 10kgs – 12.7kgs (22lbs – 28lbs). Young stag: 7.25kgs – 10.4kgs (16lbs – 23lbs)

Mature hen: 5.4kgs – 8.1kgs (12lbs – 18lbs). Young hen 3.6kgs – 6.3kgs (8lbs – 14 lbs)

livestockconservancy.org about the Buff:

"The Buff is a historic variety it was accepted by the American Poultry Association in 1874 and used in the development of the Bourbon Red variety in the late 1800s."

livestockconservancy.org about the Jersey Buff:

" the 1940’s. The New Jersey Agricultural Experiment Station at Millville initiated a program to develop a small to medium size market turkey. The new buff colored birds, called “Jersey Buffs”, were developed through pedigree breeding and selection from crosses of Black, Bourbon Red and Broad Breasted Bronze varieties.

Young toms weigh about 21 pounds and mature hens about 12 pounds."

nhdb.nl about the "Yellow German turkey":

"Mature stag: 7,0 - 8,0 kg. Mature hen: 4,0 - 5,0 kg.

Young stag : 6,0 - 7,0 kg. Young hen: 4,0 - 5,0 kg"

nhdb.nl about the Buff turkey:

"Mature stag: 12,0 kg. Mature hen: 7,0 kg.

Young stag: 8,5 kg. Young hen: 5,0 kg."

So in my books, the American "Jersey Buff" (fao Jersey Buff/US) is another breed than the British or ancient American Buff (fao Buff/US). And if the "Yellow German turkey" is also called "buff" in Britain, there may be a third breed, that we know of. And I was told, that in the Czech Republic, there is another one... --PigeonIP (talk) 08:48, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

other turkeys

// sorry, if I overdo here --PigeonIP (talk) 08:48, 23 September 2014 (UTC) //

The breeds of the european association show us, that there are many differences between the countries. The German Standard for example, does not know the Norfolk black, the White Holland or the Cambridge bronze. In France, they do know 23 different breeds; in the Netherlands, they know 24 different turkeys; in Belgium, they do know 25 (they also do not know the Royal Palm and the Cambridge bronze)

I try to make it more descriptive: --PigeonIP (talk) 15:26, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Turkeys

(source: EE-List)

de	fr	uk	us	au	others
-/- (USA)	Dindon bleu d'Amérique	Slate turkey acc. to EE: not in the UK	Slate turkeyY	AU	nhdb.nl ("American slate turkey")
-/-(USA)	Dindon bronzé d'Amérique	not in the UK	Bronze turkey Y	AU	nhdl.nl: "American Bronze turkey"; shall be the Standard Bronze in the UK
-/-(USA)	Dindon noir d'Amérique	not in the UK	Black turkey Y	AU	nhdl.nl: "Black turkey"
-/-(USA)	Dindon de Beltsville, blanc	Beltsville Small White	Beltsville Small WhiteY	au?	nhdb.nl: "Beltsville small white turkey"
-/- (F)	Dindon du Bourbonnais, noir	not in the UK	us ?	-/-	a black turkey
-/- (GB)	-/-	Cambridge bronze	us?	au?
Deutsche Pute, Blau	Dindon bleu allemand (B), Dindon Bleu de Suède (FR)	Blue (Lavender) (?)	us?	AU	nhdb.nl: "Blue turkey"
Deutsche Pute, Bourbon	Dindon Bourbon rouge	Bourbon RedY	Bourbon RedY	AU	nhdb.nl (us)
Deutsche Pute, bronzefarbig	Dindon bronzé allemand	bronze	us?	au?	nhdb.nl: "German bronze turkey"
Deutsche Pute, Cröllwitzer	Cröllwitzer	CröllwitzerY	us?	-/-	nhdb.nl: "Cröllwitzer turkey"
Deutsche Pute, gelb	Dindon jaune allemand	buff	us?	au?	nhdb.nl "Yellow German turkey"
Deutsche Pute, kupfer	-/-	bronce	us?	-/-	nhdb.nl: "Copper turkey"
Deutsche Pute, Narragansettfarbig	-/-	not in the UK	us?	-/-
Deutsche Pute, rot	-/-	not in the UK	us?	-/-
Deutsche Pute, rotflügel	Dindon à ailes rouges allemand	not in the UK	us?	-/-	nhdb.nl: "Redwing turkey"
Deutsche Pute, schwarz	Dindon noir allemand	not in the UK	us?	au?
Deutsche Pute, schwarzflügel	Dindon à ailes noires allemand	Black winged bronze	us?	-/-	nhdb.nl: "Blackwing turkey"
Deutsche Pute, weiß	Dindon blanc allemand	British white Y	us?	au?
-/- (F)	Dindon, porcelaine	not in the UK	us?	-/-	a French turkey
-/- (F)	Dindon du Gers, nior	not in the UK	us?	-/-	a black French turkey
-/- (I)	Dindon châtain d'Italie	not in the UK	us?	-/-	it: Tacchino castano d'Italia
-/- (I)	Dindon noir d'Italie	not in the UK	us?	-/-	it: Dindon noir d'Italie
-/- (USA)	Dindon de Narragansett	NarragansettY	Narragansett Y	AU	nhdb.nl: "Narragansett turkey"
-/- (GB)	-/-	Norfolk blackY	us	-/-	nhdb.nl: "Norfolk Black"
-/- (B)	Dindon de Ronquières, fauve	not in the UK	us?	-/-	nhdb.nl: "Ronquières turkey"
-/- (B)	Dindon de Ronquières, à épaulettes jaunes	not in the UK	us?	-/-	a French turkey
-/- (B)	Dindon de Ronquières, jaspé	not in the UK	us?	-/-	a French turkey
-/- (B)	Dindon de Ronquières, perdrix	not in the UK	us?	-/-	nhdb.nl: "Ronquières turkey"
-/- (B)	Dindon de Ronquières, blanc	not in the UK	us?	-/-	nhdb.nl: "Ronquières turkey"
-/- (GB)	-/-	Royal Palm	Royal Palm Y	AU
-/- (B/F)	Dindon Rouge des Ardennes	not in the UK	us?	-/-	nhdb.nl "Red Ardenner turkey"
-/- (F)	Dindon de Sologne, noir	not in the UK	us?	-/-	nhdb.nl: "Sologne turkey"
-/- (USA)	Dindon de Virginie	White Holland turkey	White Holland turkeyY	au?	nhdb.nl "White Holland turkey"
-/- (CZ)	-/-	not in the UK	us?	-/-	cs: Česká krůta, Divocezbarvené bíle lemované
-/- (CZ)	-/-	not in the UK	us?	-/-	cs: Česká krůta, šedědivocezbarvene bíle lemované
-/- (E)	-/-	acc.to EE: not in the UK acc. to NHDB: "Buff"	us?	au?	nl: Engelsekalkoen, buff (I'd rather check this one) Y on nhdb.nl: "Buff turkey"

• missing in the list are: Auburn turkey, Broad Breasted White, Buff turkey (because I can not identify the Jersey buff as German buff, the buff Engelsekalkoen, a Dindon de Ronquières... ), Midget White (turkey), Slate turkey, American Mammoth Bronze, , Broad Breasted Bronze
• something went wrong with the PCGB-breeds: Bourbon RedY, Bronze, NarragansettY, Nebraskan Spotted (missing in the list above), Blue (Lavender)Y, Buff, Pied (Cröllwitzer)Y, Norfolk BlackY, SlateY, WhiteY
• --> Royal Palm is not the Cröllwitzer
• --> Slate is not the Blue (Lavender)

--PigeonIP (talk) 15:26, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

• • • • Australian Poultry Standard lists 9 varieties. Royal PalmY, SlateY, White, BlueY, BlackY, BronzeY, Buff, NarragansettY and Bourbon RedY. JTdale 07:40, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you: I tried to match them. There may still be some mistakes.

• White can be the Beltsville Small White, White Holland turkey or the British White
• Buff is the turkey in question here ;)

--PigeonIP (talk) 09:59, 23 September 2014 (UTC) btw. http://www.nhdb.nl/siervogel/ is a good source. Search via "kalkoenen" and you can see the data-sheet with many pictures to compare.

APA Turkeys (US)

APA Recognized Breeds and Varieties, 8 varieties of turkey: Beltsville Small White, Black (turkey), Bourbon Red, Bronze (turkey), Narragansett, Royal Palm, Slate (turkey), White Holland --PigeonIP (talk) 19:15, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Did some research but can't find anywhere any information on the Australian turkeys and which US or British variety they line up with. We don't have a Turkey Club or any such body, (just found a Heritage Turkey Society, but their website is just a pile of Under Construction signs) and I couldn't find any books on the subject. JTdale 03:58, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal

Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Misplaced Pages struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Category:Chicken breeds reorganisation

I would like to propose a reorganisation of Category:Chicken breeds.

• Proposal 1' - I recommend all present articles in that category be removed from it, and it serve only as a parent category. Instead, all breeds should be categorised only under their relevant "Chicken breeds originating from X" category.
• Proposal 2 - Additionally, I recommend creation of a Category:Chicken breeds by type with subcats Category:Hardfeather chicken breeds and Category:Softfeather chicken breeds. In addition I would recommend renaming of Category:Bantam chicken breeds to Category:True bantams since everything it contains is a true bantam except American Game Fowl, which probably shouldn't be in it.
  

Thoughts? JTdale 11:56, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

• comment on proposal 1: "Chicken breeds originating from X" will get pretty messy, at least in Europe. Do you remember the Polish, the Padovana and the Hollands kuifhoen? their are breeds with varieties of different origin. That category-tree gives you plenty room for nationalism and tiring discussions... I'd like to browse a "Chicken breeds (by name)"-Category and see the multifariousness of chicken breeds. The Lahore, for example is sorted into Category:Domesticated pigeon breeds originating in Pakistan (I am with pigeons again, sorry for that). This breed is totally unknown in Pakistan (and India). It is a European breed (of German/Austrian/English origin), a descendent of 2 or more pigeon breeds: the Sherajee (or sherajee-marked Gola) and Gola. The Gola had unfeathered legs with the typical Lahore-markings, the Indic Sherajee had feathered legs and coloured breast-feathers. There are chicken with an equal problem, for example the Malay, that is not a Malayan breed of chicken, as the name suggests. I'd rather remove these categories, but that would be an impossible request ;)
• comment on proposal 2:
  • Category:True bantams is good.
  • Category:Hardfeather chicken breeds and Category:Softfeather chicken breeds: refering to APA, PCGB, Australian poultry club?

I have seen the mess with geese: the Pilgrim for example is a light goose within the PCGB, but a medium with the APA. Are "Rare Long Crowers (PCGB)" Hardfeather or Softfeather chicken? The APA does not know Hardfeather and Softfeather, the PCGB does not know the American breed Chantecler. How to categorise (to the western world) exotic Asian breeds?

If you like to categorise by type: I'd rather go with Category:Large Fowl and Category:Bantam chicken breeds and take into consideration, that most bantams will be redirects to sections of the "Large Fowl"-article. (but I am the German guy, that is familiar with that (European?) concept and different standards for large fowl and look-a-like-bantams and different numbers of accepted coulour-variations for both.) --PigeonIP (talk) 21:33, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

I think for that reason Bantam/Large categories aren't much use. True Bantam is the only type that'll have dedicated articles. I know official classifications can be a problem. I think it'd be excessive to have a categorisation for every standard though, but I really would like a way to narrow down breed catergorisation. As for Originating From X, you can use multiple when its genuinely from two countries. And blatantly stupid categories can be removed. As for only regionally known breeds - there are always going to be breeds that aren't in a particular standard but are in another. No other country has the Australian Pit Game, Australian Game or Australian Langshan in their standards, or the Watervale or Elizabeth ducks.

@JTdale: I personally have no idea what the difference between "Hardfeather" and "Softfeather chicken" is. That is, why this categorisation would not be usable for me and would potentially lead to mistakes by others as well (at least as long as this concept is unknown for a special breed). The only orientation I would have is a standard. I could understand "ornamental breeds", "longtail chicken" (like the Onagadori), "Silkie chicken" ((Large) Silkie, Silkie bantam, Japanese Silkie with black skin, Siamese Silkie with white skin, others?), "game fowl", "true bantams"; even "clean legged" or "rosecomb" (but there are breeds with rosecombs and normal combs, like the Rhode Island Red). The concept of Category:True bantams also works, because of Bantam (poultry)#True bantams. At least there should be an article for every "type"-category on wikipedia, that defines what the category is for.

As for Originating From X, you can use multiple when its genuinely from two countries. And blatantly stupid categories can be removed. It is not that easy. I won't go there. I already did spend too much time on an attempt to adjust "blatantly stupid" things. Do try to explain to a person, that is not familiar with poultry (breeds) that the Malay is not a Malayan chicken... Category:Chicken breeds originating in Malaysia isn't even obviously wrong, ancestors of that breed are from Malaysia... I have no idea, why the Archangel is part of Category:Domesticated pigeon breeds originating in Croatia but I am pretty sure, if I added Category:Domesticated pigeon breeds originating in Germany... or Category:Chicken breeds originating in Germany to the Sebright (The Silver Sebright got "pure white" in Germany, the original Silver Sebright was cream coloured), people would be fast to remove it. (and I could not be angry about that)

Short: Category:True bantams is a good proposal. "Chicken breeds originating from X"-categories are like "chicken by colour"-categories on commons of limited use for me. Please don't remove all breeds from Category:Chicken breeds, at least not without moving all of them to Category:Chicken breeds by name. --PigeonIP (talk) 09:22, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

If you have references that prove a category is wrong, it should be easy to remove it. If not, then something is seriously wrong. How would Chicken breeds by name work? I doubt rosecomb as a category would work as a lot of breeds have varieties in both single and rose as you say. Same with clean legged (i.e: british vs french marans). We could go with categories like Long Crower, Long Tail, True Bantam, Gamefowl, which are more self explanatory? JTdale 14:06, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

What is right, what is wrong with a category named "originating in"... all do go back to domesticated chickens of Indian (?) origin... To most breeds you may be able to add half a dozen categories like that. (my personal problem with them)

More self explanatory categories is a good enough attempt. Even "Long Crower" may get tricky, but let's try it ... .

For "chicken breeds by name" see #chicken category tree --PigeonIP (talk) 16:06, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Asian breeds you certainly can get confusing origins (actually, I'm presently confused on what to put the 4 varieties of Langshan into, given they are directly developed with supposed little change from Chinese birds yet they were 'refined'/'changed' in certain countries) but maybe then a "Chicken breeds of uncertain origin" category would be worthwhile? Japanese bantams would certainly fit into that, despite their names. JTdale 05:26, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

moved the comment about trees to #chicken category tree --PigeonIP (talk) 10:05, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

My orientation for its "origin" would be the standard. Sometimes even that is inaccurate or vague ("Asia", "Indian subcontinent"). "country" is another thing: The Swedish Blue for example may be a "Swedish" breed, but the region of its origin is the same as the origin of the Pomeranian, is in Germany (and Poland). The Swedish Blue is Category:Duck breeds originating in Sweden, the Pomeranian Category:Goose breeds originating in Germany and Category:Goose breeds originating in Prussia. The latter is a subcategory of Category:Goose breeds by country of origin...

I do not have a solution for "my" problem. I am accepting that they are wished for (even as most of them do have just one page). But I would be totally miserable if Category:Chicken breeds is no longer a place for all chicken breeds.

Maybe a "Chicken breeds of uncertain origin" works, or it is understood as "please help us to find its origin" and you may get these unfortunate discussions. Be bold, try it and see what happens... --PigeonIP (talk) 10:05, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

After spending a good deal of time trying to make sure that all chicken breeds (and nothing else) were in Category:Chicken breeds, I'm not too keen on proposal 1. I think it's essential to have a place where you can go to see what you've got, all of it together, in one place, without going through 50 or 60 subfolders. {{Infobox poultry breed}} until recently automatically added the page to the category, but I had to disable that to make it usable for other poultry. As for the bantams, I just don't know - both JTdale and PigeonIP make a reasonable case. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 01:45, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

chicken category tree

@JTdale: If you are not allowed to sort the Sebright into Category:Chicken breeds and Category:True Bantam, because the ladder is a subcategory of the former (option 1), you may create Category:Chicken breeds by name (option 2):

I don't know, if this model exists on en-wp. On Commons it does. Maybe it is a little bit strange to see Chicken breeds by name at the end of an article. Is option 3 worth a try? (I am a fan of flat hierarchy) --PigeonIP (talk) 16:06, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

As for the proposed category trees, I was thinking 2 is my preferred. JTdale 05:26, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

May we try 3 and if it is not working "switch back" to option 2? Or we create a set Category:Chickens (option 4). Another would be option5/6 (creating Category:Fancy chickens; 5 with Category:Chicken breeds by country of origin; 5 with the more general Category:Chickens by country of origin)

My personal favourites are 3 and 4. --PigeonIP (talk) 10:05, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I really don't care particular much about the point of removing all articles from Category chicken breeds, given as you guys have raised some decent points against that proposal. I don't like proposals 5 or 6 at all; Fancy Chickens isn't really a good parent category. While breeds like the true bantams and long tails are 'fancy', most chicken breeds were bred for a purpose. Cockfighting, meat, eggs, whatever that is. Therefore by definition they aren't 'fancy'. Also I really think if we're going to add categories like Gamefowl, True Bantam, they need to be subcat of Chicken Breeds - as does Chicken breeds by country of origin. Flat hierarchy doesn't work here. JTdale 05:26, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

5 and 6 are out ;)

Hm, "True Bantams" are not a "chicken breed" (Category:Chicken breeds is a Set category) "True Bantams" is a group of chicken breeds. The reason, why I introduced Category:Chickens (don't know a better title) with option 4. "True Bantams" are "Chickens"...

Do what you think is best. --PigeonIP (talk) 07:07, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Nothing says we can't have groups of chicken breeds under Category:Chicken breeds. We already do in fact, with bantams and hybrids. JTdale 19:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

If it is a set-and-topic category: yes, we can. Is it the best possible solution? I don't know. With the stricter definition of "breeds" (True breeding, "hybrid chickens are no breed"), it may not be the best. It depends on the definition of Category:Chicken breeds. --PigeonIP (talk) 10:46, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Well googles definition is noun: breed; plural noun: breeds - "a stock of animals or plants within a species having a distinctive appearance and typically having been developed by deliberate selection." This would therefore kind of cover hybrids I guess, since they were selected for a distinctive appearance and through deliberate selection. If it was talking about breeding true, then they'd fail. See also Breed. JTdale 23:18, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Notification of major merger discussion

I would like to notify members of the Wikiproject to a major merger discussion at ISA Brown#Merger proposal regarding the articles ISA Brown, Daisy Belle, Dekalb Amberlink, Lohmann Brown, Miss Pepperpot], Freedom Ranger (chicken), Red Shaver, Sex link and Cornish game hen into an ovearching hybrid chickens article. Please comment. JTdale 12:26, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Proposed notability guideline

I would like to request comment from other members of the WikiProject on a proposal for a project guideline on notability of poultry breeds. Please see User:JTdale/Notability (poultry breeds) and then leave your thoughts here and tell me what needs editing, adding, removing etc.

JTdale 18:48, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live!

Hello everyone!

You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that WikiProject X is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, check us out! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!

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Harej (talk) 16:56, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Discussion on capitalisation of poultry breeds.

Please see Talk:Poultry#Capitalization_of_bird_names. JT_dale~ 08:09, 15 February 2015 (UTC)