Talk:Jewish deicide - Misplaced Pages

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Christ killers

I deleted the following sentence which I introdiced myself:

According to the Kingdom of David PBS TV documentary, the latter term is attributed to the preacher John Chrysostom, who introduced it in his cermons against "Judaizers".</nowiki>

Here is the full translated text of all 8 anti-Judaizer cermons. Indeed, he says that Jews murdered Christ, but I see no immediate indication on a term "Christ killer". (I see phrases "those who slew Christ", "Christ whom they crucified", "slayers of Christ", "those who shed the blood of Christ") It may be a problem or artifact of translation (several are known). Also, this website does not have the source of the translation, hence there is some doubt in translation.

So until I see a WP:RS, supplied with original Greek text, I don't think that the statement is properly grounded and I don't trust American TV to be a reliable source in this respect.

Also the "John Chrysostom" article referring to Walter Laqueur's book mentions the term "assassins of Christ"

In any case "Christ killer" is a typically English language collocation and one must be careful in claiming that some Ancient Roman of Greek "first introduced it".

What do you think, colleagues? Meanwhile I will write something vague to replace. Mukadderat (talk) 00:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is a ref to 1996 book quoting this (Malcolm Hay, 1950) for "assassins of Christ" term attributed to Chrysostom. Mukadderat (talk) 00:17, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

P.S. the article 'Kingdom of David itself requires expert oversight. Mukadderat (talk) 01:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Proceeding further

When searching certain antisemitic topics in wikipedia using google I could not help but notice that there is an enormous amount of content duplication in the "Antisemitism" domain, and some of it starts diverging and turning into chaos, while other sits cut-and-pasted neglected and unreferenced. It particular, I would strongly recommend you'all to refresh familiarity with wikipedia:Summary style. IMO it will help to cope with this text bloating due to duplication.

Do you have any wikiProject which keeps an eye from the "bird's-eye view"? If not I'd advise to have one.

Anyway, I wrote the separate "Jewish deicide" article, mostly by cut'n'paste from wikipedia and subsequent removal of errors and nonsense. And I linked it from surprisingly many wikipedia article, so I am wondering why the idea to write in did not occur to someone earlier.

I don't think I will continue to elaborate it (only watch against vandalism). Therefore I would like you to ask three things:

Address the concern in section #Christ killers above
Expand/fix the article
Optionally find a better article title (I hope it will happen without move wars)

Good luck, bye, Mukadderat (talk) 01:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Similar claims in islam

I've noticed that many muslim extremists have apparently transformed the charge of deicide into that of murderers of prophets (cf article in The Atlantic ). Some of them believe that jews had treated both Jesus and Mohammad quite unfairly, although there is lack of consensus on their part into many aspects of Jesus's human and divine life and also on the cause of death of Mohammad. ADM (talk) 15:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Serious problem with the "deicide" term

Christians differ, in spite of the widespread "adherence" to the Nicene Creed, as to whether or not Jesus was God; a concept defined as Incarnation, and iconised in the concept of the Trinity. It is only according with a "Jesus == God" concept and point of view, that the "deicide" term has any relevance, and even in this context the notion that any human being(s) could actually kill (a, the) God is reasonably ludicrous. So the "deicide" term is a canard, and it should be stated so, and of course including the above explanation, distinguishing the canard as associated with a particular Christological concept. -Ste vertigo 00:23, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

What is your verifiable source claiming it is a "canard?" Slrubenstein | Talk 00:30, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Stevertigo, along with Slrubenstein's point, as far as I am aware almost all significant Christian denominations, aside from perhaps the Jehovah's Witnesses, consider Jesus to be God. Do you have any source for your surprising claim that "Christians differ, in spite of the widespread "adherence" to the Nicene Creed, as to whether or not Jesus was God"? Jayjg 06:36, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

While it does seems a bit of a stretch to go from belief in Jesus's divinity to an outright accusation of Jewish deicide, there should perhaps be discussion on the inherent tension between the doctrinal obligation to strongly affirm the divinity of Jesus against heretical proponents of Arianism and the ethical requirement to oppose a purely political brand of antisemitism. ADM (talk) 15:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I would have thought that, according to the Tome of Leo and the Council of Chalcedon (451), Jesus was God in the sense that Jesus' divine nature was God (i.e. the logos). Yet Jesus' human nature was not God; it was united to God. Purely as a verbal affirmation, it is acceptable to speak of deicide in Christianity because Jesus was the man united to God "without confusion, change, separation or division." God *incarnate* was killed. However, God (the logos) was not killed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.83.93.34 (talk) 00:10, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Deicide before Jesus

There are interesting anthropological theories that talk about the possibility of an archaic or primitive deicide before the time of Jesus. For instance, in the writings of René Girard, it says that Jesus merely reveals an earlier deicide which may have been that of his father Abba. The early victim is sometimes represented as a proto-semitic pastor-hunter (El), who was ritually killed while he was out hunting. ADM (talk) 15:18, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Merge Request

This article seems to discuss exactly the same thing as Responsibility for the death of Jesus. These articles should really be merged and a better title might need to be found. Macfanatic (talk) 01:13, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

No, it shouldn't be. I bet you're a jew! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.167.85.17 (talk) 02:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Jesus' ethnicity

The fact that Jesus was born jewish would seem to have a bearing on this article. The following paragraph from the Jesus article seems particularly relevant in fact: "Critical Biblical scholars and historians believe that the New Testament is useful for reconstructing Jesus' life. Most agree that Jesus was a Jew who was regarded as a teacher and healer, that he was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman Prefect of Judaea, Pontius Pilate, on the charge of sedition against the Roman Empire." With the way this article is currently structured, there is little to show that this 'jewish deicide' belief is discredited and only maintained as an article about anti semitic attitudes, other than the grouping within the series. It would be rather easy for a careless reader to come away with an incorrect conclusion 124.168.96.24 (talk) 23:51, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you saying the article should cast doubt over Jesus legitimacy? Jesus and his teachings are in direct opposition to Judaism after all. In that context, it's reasonable and right he should be put to death from a Jewish point of view? The issue of "Jewish deicide" or guilt, is irrelevant and illogical even then to a practising or religious Jew. He went against the religion, he got punished in the usual way (only in his case, it was by carried out by the Romans, rather than by stoning).— Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.221.148.50 (talk) 23:38, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Repudiation Statement Removal

The last sentence in this section is something of a logical syllogism that is more a persuasive postulate than a statement. I removed it for the following reasons:

This statement starts with, "It is also important to remember..." That is the beginning of a persuasive proposition, not the issuance of fact.
The relevance of Christ's stating that He would rebuild the temple in 3 days to the topic is questionable, at best.
Christ's knowledge of His fate and that His Crucifixion would fulfill prophesy is not grounds for the killing of Him to be called a "favor" to the world.

Lmt 7816 (talk) 01:36, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Did wikipedia copy it or was it copied from wikipedia?

Review the link much of the exact text is entierly the same as this article on wiki.http://reference.findtarget.com/search/Jewish%20deicide/Wikimakesmart (talk) 23:04, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

And as that link says, it's taken from Misplaced Pages. --jpgordon 15:09, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

New section.

Could someone who understands add a section explaining why Jews would need to be punished for helping Jesus do what he was sent to Earth to do? --I mean, doesn't general Christian belief say that God gave his only son so that people may have everlasting life? If Jesus wasn't executed and instead lived to a ripe old age, wouldn't "God's sacrifice" be kind of meaningless? So even if the Jews were responsible, why are they condemned and not celebrated? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.99.175 (talk) 20:29, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the need for some discussion on this new dimension about the destiny implied in the bible, particularly Jesus's own prophecy of his death. Also, let's not forget he was betrayed to the Jewish Elders, by his own disciple, Judas who was told in advance that he would betray Jesus, much to his disbelief. Jesus could have escaped his death then at any time, had he wanted to. He chose not to, and instead, to let events run their course, knowing how it would end. There's a part in the bible where he prays to God on the night before his being seized and asks why it's to be so and why he must suffer. And then there's the resurrection. He predicted that too. The resurrection in itself (if you believe the New Testament) is proof that he was the Son of God and that he was on earth to fulfil his destiny, i.e. to save mankind from their sins, before ascending into heaven to be at his fathers side in the kingdom of heaven. All these elements taken together would seem to support the idea that Jesus was "born to die" and this was in fact Gods will and plan for him.

Context and rational

What have the Jews to feel guilty of anyway concerning the Jewish part in Jesus's death? If you look at the context, Jesus was going against the established religion and order. Others had done so before and the Jewish Elders had no reason to think he was not just another "prophet". However, Jesus directly challenged established Jewish practices and attacked the religion, even in their template. To the Jews, this was blasphemy, a crime usually punishable by death in those times. How were the Jewish Elders to know he was the actual Son of God and so should be spared? Also, consider that Jesus, from the accounts in the bible, commanded a massive public following and audience wherever he spoke. It was probably only a matter of time, before his teachings brought him into conflict with the Romans or Jewish Elders. You can't declare yourself "King of the Jews", challenge and attack the established order and rules of a society, and not expect there to be severe consequences. It's not like the Elders KNEW he was the Son of God by some proof and then acted to eliminate him. They simply acted in plain ignorance or fear, to protect their positions and religion according to the bibles account.

RfC

BAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:50, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Responsibility of Jewish authorities

This section seems to be contradictory and somewhat confusing in what point is being made.

First, the evidence is presented that the Jews may have had the legal authority to seize Jesus for blasphemy and execute him themselves without referral to the Romans. If this is so, then why didn't they? One possible explanation is them knowing or suspecting that Jesus was indeed the Messiah, and not wanting his blood on their hands, but also not wanting him threatening their position and religion, and so needing him eliminating. This view then, if you believe this to be the case, does support the idea of Jewish deicide, because there's a degree of plotting and scheming.

The bible, as this section points out, portrays the Romans as very reluctant to get involved and to pass any sentence on Jesus. If you believe the bible to be true and unbiased, there could be several explanations for their reluctance. The most obvious being that Jesus had not violated their laws or threatened the Roman Empire directly, so what exactly would they trial and punish him for? Secondly, if they trialled him for preaching false teachings/blasphemy, surely that would be beyond their jurisdiction being non-Jews and therefore the duty of the Jewish Elders to decide?

The article suggests the Romans would have no problem killing anyone who threatens the Roman Empire or their rule and established order. However, the way the bible tells it is that the Jewish Elders just wanted rid of Jesus and plotted with the Romans to do their bidding in this regard, and the Romans knew their reasons, and hence their reluctance to do their dirty work. They didn't want to kill an innocent (and possibly important) man in their eyes, and the eyes of those who followed Jesus. This would make the Romans look very bad. This then, would seem to reinforce Jewish deicide.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.221.148.50 (talk) 00:06, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Roman Deicide

Recommend section on that as well, for one must look at the methods of both races. Jews executed by stoning people to death, which was not Christ's fate. He was crucified on a cross, which is what the Romans did. That tends to get ignored or glossed over. Putting aside the fact that some punks go around calling the Jews "Christ Killer #1" and the Italians "Christ Killer #2", does this merit a footnote? 69.143.110.110 (talk) 03:44, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Klinghoffer

Re this The edit summary that he is not notable enough for a quote box, has half a reason.

That he is notable on this is shown by the fact that one highly scholarly source cites him precisely for this statement.
Perhaps it should not be "boxed" but the quote itself is notable for the reason stated above.
What was objectionable about the original framing of this issue was to exclude what, in highly specialized scholarship, is known, dismissing the obvious facts of history (if Christ is 'history' is another matter. I have my doubts, and were I to have an opinion, I would think Maimonides's statement fairly close to a strong probability - I.e., that an innovating preacher began to utter remarks that were considered doctrinally abhorrent to his faith, and he was put on trial in a religious court, and, as was the norm, there and in numerous other major religions, sentenced to death for blasphemy. Deicide had nothing to do with the matter). We know from the Talmud and Maimonides that one tradition held he was executed for these reasons, and that, as Klinghoffer logically states, means that in itself, stating these facts cannot be considered a smear on the Jewish people. It certainly became an anti-Semitic canard when Christianity esp. Matthew reframed the story as something 'all Jews' wanted. In that form, it is profoundly anti-Semitic. That is what needed correction.Nishidani (talk) 07:37, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

That an antisemetic canard has a germ of truth somewhere way underneath is hardly surprising. The most effective forms of bigotry often have some "truth" that they can point too. Pretending that the actual scholarship is the basis for the bigotry is of course improper. People calling Jews chritkiller do not care about Maimonides. No being quoted in a book is not evidence of importance. A book noting that Klinghoffer was an important scholar would be.2600:1010:B063:A0C1:B1C5:C625:F99D:5DD9 (talk) 22:13, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Don't be silly.

'A Bet din may have oondemned the person (known to Christians as) Jesus to death' is an historical proposition, supported by the Bavli and Maimonides.
That the Jewish people are responsible for the death of Jesus is an anti-Semitic canard.

No member of any ethnic group can be held responsible for what one, or a number of members of that group do, or did in the past. All anti-Semitism is based on that utterly fatuous and jejune confusion. Met an American soldier? Think of Mai Lai! A German bureaucrat? entertain dark thoughts about the Holocaust? An Israeli? Uh, complicit with Deir Yassin? A Muslim? Ah Bin Laden!

The first has nothing to do with the 'Jewish people'. The second has everything to do with the Jewish people.

They are two utterly distinct things. This whole area of discourse is deeply contaminated by fears (understandable), point-scoring (deplorable), the instrumental use of ideas etc.

Scholarship gets nowhere being fearful politics goes everywhere, stoking fear. Kinghoffer did something important, as a respected writer. He clarified a dangerous meme. Politics disallows Jews from praying on the Temple Mount; politics stops Christians from praying at David's Tomb; politics stops Muslims praying at Joseph's Tomb. To a skeptic it is all a nightmare of ethno-religious obsessions with a concept of sacred possession that denies community and rebuffs the idea that one group's religion has the same rights as another's. Klinghoffer is an important voice, like Reuven Firestone, and so many others, that bridge the historical gap between popular prejudice and the austere world of scholarship. The result is clarity and a sense of our larger humanity, something that goes beyond all too rooted tendency of men to deny the obvious.Nishidani (talk) 07:08, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

See Kingdom of David article for the summary. <nowiki>

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