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Engineering

Is the last sentence in the Engineering section wrong? Is states that if you turn a screw clockwise you will losen it. Which in my opinion is the direct opposite of what the first sentence states.

Ain't just your opinion, that's a fact.The Dogandpony 19:59, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

ugly pages

How about changing the ugly / pages in the article into this form: mnemonic x system? --maveric149

Either way is fine with me. -- user:Ellmist

Done. --maveric149

Etymology

Are you sure about the etymology from Mnemosyne? I'd say that both just come from the Greek word for "memory". -- Error

According to my dictionary, "mnemonic" comes from the Greek word "mnemon," or "mindful." Also, "Mnemosyne" didn't come from the Greek word for "memory"; it is the Greek word for "memory." However, the article says "mnemonic" "echoes the figure Mnemosyne," so I have no problem with it. CHz 17:31, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Well said. mnemonic 04:29, 2004 Jun 22 (UTC)

OOO, months and pronunciation

"On Old Olympus Tiny Top" is so famous that I think it is almost the canonical example of an acrostic-type mnemonic. Of course, most clean mnemonics have dirty versions... in this case, "O! O! O! To Touch And Feel A Girl's Vagina And Hymen."

For the record, one version of the full rhyming mnemonic for the days of the months is: "Thirty days hath September/April, June, and November/All the rest have thirty-one/February stands alone/Having only eight-and-a-score/'Till Leap Year gives her one day more." Once one has the four with thirty days, the rest, for some reason, is easy enough to remember unaided. Certainly the bad rhyme of "one" and "alone" and the archaism of "eight-and-a-score" are not very helpful. Dpbsmith 15:30, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Don't want to make this a "list of mnemonics," but I wonder whether "i before e except after c" is worthy of note? (..."or when sounded like 'a' as in neighbor and weigh, except seize, inveigle, either, weird, leisure, neither"... and of course a long long list of other exceptions such as "science, caffeine, deity, protein, etc. etc. The curious thing about this and some other mnemonics is that it is genuinely helpful despite being unreliable, because for some reason it is correct in precisely those cases where one is unsure.) Dpbsmith 15:30, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I always say to myself "I before E except after C when sounded like 'EE'" which usually works, except for, of course, those exceptions like weird and caffeine. ~Rainer~

It says in the article "On Old Olympus" is gaining ground… However "O! O! O!" is much more coherent and easier to remember. ("O! O! O!" stuck directly, while I still can't remember "On Old Olympus" beyond "A".) Hard to remember mnemonics — an infortunate result of being too "clean"? Shinobu 21:45, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

More posts

There's a system to get the month days using the knuckle. Does that count as a mnemonic? And if it does, does it worth adding? :P

IMHO, yes it does... and it's probably worth adding. Dpbsmith 17:37, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I know this article isn't a list of mnemonics, but, it's easier than the rhyme, so I think it might be nice to mention User:Kieff

PI mnemonics: well, doesn't really belong in the article, but:

Now I will a rhyme construct

By chosen words the young instruct;

Cunningly devised endeavour!

Con it and remember ever.

Widths in circle here you see

Stretched out in strange obscurity.

I think I have the spelling of "endeavour" which works here... Dpbsmith 17:37, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That's really cute. Except, "Stretched" has nine letters instead of eight:

3.14159265358979323846264333279. The only replacement I can think of is "sprawled" though. You know, all this has inspired me to create a page that actually is a list of verbal mnemonics. Uranographer 06:34, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

"A reference to this technique survives to this day in the common English phrases "in the first place", "in the second place", and so forth." seriously? could someone check this? Renke

I'm 99% certain of it... I'll keep an eye out for a proper reference. Dpbsmith 22:29, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

12 Cranial Nerves

I was taught "On Old Olympus' Towering Tops, A Finely Vested German Viewed A Hawk". Which makes me wonder why it is that in the listed version, there is an A nerve that I know as a V nerve (vestibulorcochlear).

Because it is also called the auditory nerve (for obvious reasons). Shinobu 00:22, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Dirty mnemonics

I wonder what we should say about this. Not to mention dirty mnemonics is almost like having an article about limericks that does not mention dirty limericks.... Not that I actually know any dirty mnemonics, of course, but I've heard that they exist. ] 00:31, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

precisely, i found for example that the biology-taxonomy section was sorely missing 'Kenny (or whichever K name you prefer), Please Come Over For Gay Sex'

Richard of york

Does anyone think "Richard of York gave birth in vain" is rude?

I think it belongs in a different section - like dirty mnemonics 16:12, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Poem/text memory

It would be nice have some informations about the memotechniques used to memorize poem (text) in the memory championship. --GLari 22:03, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Assembler mnemonics

The article refers here. Should we make it refer back somehow? For example when opening this article one would expect "SUB", "DIV", "ADD" and "MUL" somewhere. Shinobu 13:13, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Added it in it's own section, since it's nature is very different from the other mnemonics. Even in the science section it doesn't fit in, and in any case the mnemonics in that section resemble the ones in the other sections more than they resemble assembly mnemonics.

Note that I've used assembly with an y. Technically assembly is the language, an assembler is the program that converts it to executable code. Shinobu 21:26, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Only one of the various computer systems on which I used assembler had op-code mnemonics that were "usually three characters" (namely the IBM 704x/709x series). With all the rest, the opcode mnemonics varied in length from one to five characters. So I edited that sentence accordingly. --IslandGyrl 23:41, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Maybe you're right, but you should know that in my experience most Intel opcodes that one actually encounters are three characters long. Since I'm a personal computer user, you can perhaps forgive me for my Intel-oriented perspective. Shinobu 01:17, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Structuring of the Examples

I've just finished structuring the long list of examples and after reading through the article once more, I think it has been a great improvement.

That being said, I must admit the subheadings have been chosen a bit arbitrarily, so if you think you can improve the structure, please go ahead. Shinobu 02:26, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Geology

When I did Geology at school we were taught two sayings: Cockney Old Sod Did Contract Penis Tumors Juggling Cold Testicles Quickly - of course that's a little out of date now that Tertiary and Quaternary have been renamed and redivided.

I also remember that Tall Girls Can Flirt And Other Queer Things Can Do, god knows why, but appaernly I'm not the only one (google indicates 2 other people!).

My point is, is it worth adding these phrases that no-one else seems to have heard of? I'd guess not. Paul Weaver 04:00, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

12 Cranial Nerves

Here's a mnemonic I used to learn the twelve cranial nerves:

Oh, Oh, Oh, to try and find very good volkswagens and hondas.

Weet-bix or Weetabix?

Recently someone changed every instance of "Weetabix" to "Weet-bix". Does anyone know the original version, or why it even matters? Shinobu 06:48, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Electrical Engineering Resistor Colour Scheme?

I added a pneumonic for the resistor colour scheme, only to have someone else delete it under the guise of "fixing vandalism". I was taught this one in night school, and it has excellent staying power in memory. The pneumonic is "Black Bastard Raped Our Young Girl, Bloody Virginity Gone West". Whilst this might be construed as racist, so might half the other pneumonics, and since the article already contains the pneumonic: "Bob Eats Carol's Virgin Pussy In A Big Garage Licking Mostly Her Hot Moist Loins In Out In " I don't think you can say my one is exactly obscene.

I'm putting it back in until I receive a more verbose reason why it should be taken out.

Sure. Just remember that pneumonic is not the same as mnemonic. They're not even pronounced the same, and in any case you should see the Greek roots pneumon and mnemon and know the difference. Shinobu 20:33, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

aid to memory

there's also a site with a lot of mnemonics: http://www.aidtomemory.com

Added Oh-Oh-Oh-To-Touch-etc.

Ahmed Sammy earlier on removed a variant of this mnemonic. I added this one from the talk page because I feel this one has the most logical unity of all the ones listed, more so than the one Ahmed removed. I know that some people feel uncomfortable with "dirty" mnemonics, but I don't think that matters. Shinobu 18:48, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Neutrality of article

It seems that none of you have considered the other alternatives and benefits outside of mnemonics: The most obvious handicap is the slowness of increasing the number of steps to get to a given spot in any organization--almost anybody can remember 3.1415926535 faster by 'brute force' than by a rhyme or sentence, especially if the mnemonic is a cipher. (Now, I imagine you could get pretty slick at cyphering, but wouldn't memorization occur naturally as a byproduct?)

It seems to me that it's a crutch, and I think you could get faster by pure 'brute force' practice than by being weaned off a mnemonic.

I remember the first 10 or so digits of pi with brute force. Most of the time I need only the first two, but I encouter pi regularly so it's worth the effort. However, for things that I encouter less often the performance gained by using the brute force method might not be enough to counter for the extra time it takes to learn it that way. Use whatever method you like best I say. Shinobu 21:06, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Where does this mnemonic go?

The start date (Jan. 1, 1970) of Unix time is a Thursday. To remember this, I use this mnemonic: Thor is the Norse god of thunder, and I would assume that by extension he would be the god of electricity. I imagine him providing power to a Unix box. Thor -> Thor's day -> Thursday.

I'd say Science and technology. If more computer related mnemonics appear, it might be wise to create a separate computer science section in Science and technology. Shinobu 04:55, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Can you have a mnemonic for a single word ? "Thor is the Norse god of thunder", has no connection to dates, computers unix - nothing.

Geography

How come Naughty Elephants Squirt Water was missed?  :)

And "George Evans' old grandmother rode a pig home yesterday" (Geography) was also not included?

Planetary mnemonics

Worth adding? For the order of planets: "Mother Visits Every Monday and Just Stays Until Noon, Period." This form has the added benefit of placing the asteroid belt ("and"). Apparently "period" was added when Pluto was discovered, but now perhaps should be deleted given that astronomers no longer seem to think it's a planet. Kelly Bee 01:57, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

The Calendar

There is a reference to the "Julius Caesar, and that August is named for Augustus Caesar, both of whom were popular leaders of ancient Rome. Thus, they both were entitled by fiat to have a 31 day month."

What is the fiat and should it really have a link to the Car Company

Whoa! This article is in desperate need of housecleaning

I hadn't looked at this article in a while. I see it has become a dumping around for a vast number of mnemonics that have no source citations.

These should all go eventually if they aren't sourced, per the verifiability policy linked under every edit box.

It's hard to tell which of these are personal inventions (prohibited under WP:NOR), genuine but unpublished local folklore (prohibited under WP:V), and which are legitimate examples of mnemonics in widespread use, like "On Old Olympus' Towering Top A Finn And German Viewed Some Hops"

1. Swansburg, Russell C (1995). Nursing Staff Development. Jones and Bartlett Publishers. ISBN 0867206586. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help), p. 88

I quite agree that almost all of these should be eliminated. They have no place here, and one or two well known examples should suffice to illustrate the idea. DonSiano 18:37, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Moving unsourced entries here until they can be sourced

In "Cranial nerves" I've retained the (single) sourced entry. The other can be reinserted when and as sources are found. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:04, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

In "Astronomy" I've removed the whole section. Some of these are surely published and it shouldn't be hard to find sources for them e.g. (Oh, Be A Fine Girl—Kiss Me) but they shouldn't be reinserted without sources. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:08, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Most of this article doesn't cite sources; a lot of these mnemonics make up a minor kind of "oral tradition".

Yes, that's a problem. Oral tradition can't go into Misplaced Pages on the basis of editors' personal testimony, per WP:V and WP:NOR. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:19, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

So what makes these two sections worthy of removal, and not others (e.g., "SOH CAH TOA")? What exactly are you disputing? The Dogandpony 18:06, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not singling out these two. I'm not disputing anything at all. I'm just working away gradually at labelling unsourced material and removing it if nobody cares to source it. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:19, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Now that I look at the article again (littered almost to unreadability with requests for sources), and recognize quite a lot of these mnemonics, some from grade school, I wonder, if you're so keen on their primary sources, why don't *you* go find them? The Dogandpony 18:12, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I've done so for at least one four of them and I'm looking for others. But in any case, the verifiability policy, which all editors should be familiar with because it is linked underneath every edit box, says "Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be removed by any editor. The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it." It took a while for people to add all this unsourced material, and it's going to take a while to remove it. The tags constitute fair notice so that "editors wishing to include the material" have a chance to look for sources. Probably quite a lot of this can be sourced, but that's the job of the editors who put it in and/or wish to keep it. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:19, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you ARE singling out these two. Why these and not others? The astronomy material is indisputably accurate (vide sub Stellar classification). Look at it from the point of view of a student: is it better not to have access to the material because it is unsourced (for now), or is it better to have a mnemonic without attribution? I assert that you are in fact doing a disservice to the people who will use and need this material most. 129.93.123.27 18:22, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

1) If the astronomy material is accurate, it shouldn't be all that hard to find a source for it. 2) Please reread the verifiability policy, linked underneath every edit box. This is described as "official policy" and "non-negotiable." 3) Much of this material is valid and valuable folklore, transmitted as oral tradition. However, Misplaced Pages's no original research policy means that Misplaced Pages is not a vehicle for first publication of valid and valuable folklore. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:23, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Material removed

Astronomy

• Stellar classification uses a peculiar group of letters, easily remembered using the phrase, "Oh Be A Fine Girl, Kiss Me." With two new categories L and T for brown dwarfs, the revised version to "Oh Be A Fine Girl/Guy, Kiss My Lips Tenderly." (Sometimes "Right Now Smack Wow." was added at the end, although these classes are not part of the sequence and are no longer current.) Of course, only bored astronomers find gratification knowing mnemonics.
• For naming the planets in order from the Sun, the phrases:
  • "My Very Easy Memory Jingle Seems Useful Naming Planets"
  • "Mary's Violet Eyes Made John Stay Up Nights Proposing"
  • "My Very Eager Mother Just Sewed Us New Pyjamas"
  • "Most Valuable Earth Must Jump Straight Up North Pole"
  • "My Very Educated Mother Just Showed Us Nine Planets"
  • "My Very Easy Method Just Speeds Up Naming Planets"
  • "My Very, Eccentric Mother Just Showed Us Nine Planets"
  • "Many Vile Earthlings Munch Jam Sandwiches Under Newspaper Piles"
  • "My Very Educated Mother Just Served Us Nine Pizzas"
  • "My Very Easy Method Just Sums Up Naming Planets"
  • "Mom Visits Every Monday, Just Stays Until Noon, Period"
  • "My Very Early Marriage Just Suited Uncle Ned Perfectly"

One particularly good mnemonic for remembering the order of the planets from the sun during the rare years when the orbit of Neptune tracks outside the orbit of Pluto, developed by Oliver Ross Davis, an astronomy student at Millbrook School in 1982, is "Maybe Very Elliptical Motion Just Somehow Usurped Pluto's Novelty."

Chemistry

• The first few elements of the Periodic Table can be remembered with "Harry He Likes Beer But Can Not Obtain Food".
• A longer version, covering the elements from Helium to Potassium, is "Here Lies Benjamin Bold; Cry Not Old Friend; Needlessly Nature Magnifies All Simple People Sometimes, Clots and Kings." Skipping Calcium, the subsequent elements from Scandium to Zinc (the first group of transition metals) can be remembered via "Scandinavian T V Corrupts Many French Coalmen's Nieces and Cousins (Cu Zins)".
• The universal gas constant "PV/T" was remembered in the 1960's by saying "Pee" "Vee" over the "Telephone". Pee Vee was a television character in the 1960s that was always talking on the telephone.
• The Reactivity series can be remembered thus. Poisonous Snakes Can Make All Cats Zippy In The Lost House Capturing Special G Ps

Potassium, Sodium, Calcium, Magnesium, Aluminium, Carbon, Zinc, Iron, Tin, Lead, Hydrogen, Copper, Silver, Gold, Platinum. Or maybe this is too long winded. Alternatively, Lithium and Mercury may also be included: Peter's Simple Little Cousin Met a Crazy Zulu In The Lonely Hut Carrying Money: Silver, Gold, Platinum.

• The three elements that when combined with Hydrogen form Hyrdrogen Bonds, can be memorized by the following saying: "Hydrogens just want to have FON (Flourine, Oxygen, and Nitrogen)" This saying is loosely based off the song "Girls Just Want to Have Fun" by Cyndi Lauper.
• Diatomic elements can be memorized by using the phrase "Count HOFBrINCl" and also by the phrase "Have No Fear Of Ice Cold Beer"(Hydrogen, Oxygen, Flourine, Bromine, Iodine, Nitrogen, and Chlorine).

Computer Science

Computer Science

Mnemonics in computer science tend to be less pervasive as most abbreviations are brief. Some terms still warrant a mnemonic such as People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms (PCMCIA).

One application of a Mnemonic is in embedded systems firmware design where processes that a microprocessor undertakes are shortened for the person who uses them for ease of handling. example: load accumulator A or store accumulator B become the Mnemonics LDAA and STAA respectively

Electronics

To help remember the electronic color code that is used to indicate the values or ratings of electronic components, the following phrase was in common use in electronics training in the US Navy: "Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls Behind Victory Garden Walls". The letters correspond to the colors black, brown, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet, grey, and white, which in turn correspond to the digits 0-9.

In the network design OSI model, the seven layers (Physical, Data link, Network, Transport, Session, Presentation, and Application) can be remembered with the mnemonics:

Please Do Not Throw Sausage Pizza Away

Or in this one (Which starts from Application -> Physical)
All People Seem To Need Data Processing

When wanting to know whether an electronic element in a circuit is a capacitor or an inductor when using AC power and all the information you are given is the phase angles of current I and voltage E, remember the name ELI ICE (Or ELI The ICE Man). This phrase means that your voltage E leads the current I in an inductor L, whereas current I leads the voltage E in a capacitor C. This method is commonly used among the U.S. Military.

The ordering of frequency bands of the radio frequency spectrum are remembered by "Veronica Loves Manipulating Her Vagina Until She Explodes" representing VLF, LF, MF, HF, VHF, UHF, SHF, and EHF.

Biology: Taxa

(The letters stand for Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, and Species.)

• "Kings Play Cards On Fairly Good Soft Velvet

• "Kings Play Chess On Fine Green Satin"
• "Knights Play Chess On Fat Glass Stools"
• "Kirsten Puts Cats Over Family Generally Speaking"
• "King Phillip Came Over From Germany Soaked"
• "Kids Playing Carelessly On Freeways Get Splattered"
• "Kinky People Can Often Find Good Sex
• "King Phillip Came Over For Good Soup
• "Kindly Park Car On FG Street.
• "King Phillip Came Out For Gay Sex"

(Current taxonomic systems add Domain, thus Domain, Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, and Species.)

• "Donkey Kong Pounds Clay Objects Frequently Gaining Sores"
• "Dear King Phillip Came Over For Grape Soda"

External carotid artery branches

(The letters stand for superior thyroid artery, ascending pharyngeal artery, lingual artery, facial artery, occipital artery, posterior auricular artery, superficial temporal artery, and maxillary artery)

• "Some Anatomists Like Fucking, Others Prefer S & M"
• "Some Angry Lady Figured Out P M S"

Cranial nerves

(The letters stand for Olfactory nerve, Optic nerve, Occulomotor nerve, Trochlear nerve, Trigeminal nerve, Abducent nerve, Facial nerve, Auditory nerve, Glossopharyngeal nerve, Vagus nerve, Accessory nerve, and Hypoglossal nerve.)

In the ones marked with a "@", the accessory nerve is referred to by its alternate name "Spinal accessory nerve". In the ones marked with "#" the Auditory nerve is referred to by its alternate name "Vestibulocochlear nerve".

• "Ooh, Ooh, Ooh To Touch And Feel Very Good Velvet. Such Heaven!" @
• "On Old Olympus' Towering Top A Finn And German Viewed Some Hops" @

• "On Old Olympus' Tiny Top A Finn And German Viewed Some Hops", or "On Old Olympus' Towering Top A Finely Vested German Viewed A Hawk" (with variations; some say "terraced tops", "towering top(s)" or "topmost top", and "viewed some hops" is sometimes rendered as "vaulted a hedge").
• "O! O! O! To Touch And Feel A Girl's Vagina And Hymen."
• "O! O! O! To Touch And Feel Virgin Girls' Vaginas And Hymens." #

Another to help remember the types of information these nerves carry (sensory, motor, or both) is thus: Some Say Marry Money, But My Brother Says Big Brains Matter More.
On Old Olympus' Tiny Tops A Friendly Viking Grew Vines and Hops

For Motor/Sensory/Both, the mnemonic of Some Say Marry Money, But My Brother Says Big Breasts Matter More.

Music

• Beginning music students trying to memorize the notes of the staff using the mnemonics "Every Good Boy Does Fine", "Empty Garbage Before Dad Freaks", "Every Good Boy Deserves Fudge" (or, in Britain, "Every Good Boy Deserves Favour" - also the title of a play with music by Tom Stoppard and Andre Previn), and "FACE" for the lines and spaces of the Treble Clef respectively. The Bass Clef equivalents are "Good Boys Do Fine Always" or "Good Boys Deserve Fine Apples" or "Great Big Dogs Fight A lot" for lines, and "All Cows Eat Grass" or "All Cars Eat Gas" for spaces.

  Note: This method of "remembering" note positions on treble and bass clefs will lead to problems later on in music study. It is much better to learn the note positions on the grand staff as a whole and regard the treble and bass clefs as markers.

• The strings on a six-string guitar with standard tuning can be remembered using the mnemonics: "Elephants And Donkeys Grow Big Ears" or "Eat All Day, Get Big Easily",
• The circle of fifths can be remembered using the mnemonic Forty Cats Going Down An Empty Barrel, Fred Can Get Drugs At East Boston, Fat Cats Go Down Alleys Eating Birds or Fat Cicks Go Dancing At Every Bar.
• The spelling of 'Rhythm' can be remembered as "Rhythm Helps Your Two Hips Move."
• If the student wants to remember the order in which sharps go, i.e. F# then F# and C# then F# and C# and G#. The mnemonic is "Father Christmas Gave Dad An Electric Blanket". Similarly if they wish to remember the order of the flats, the mnemonics -"BEAD Glass Cuts Fingers," "Blanket Explodes And Dad Gets Cold Feet" and "Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles' Father", are used. Handily, when reversed, this creates the sharps list.

Superior Orbital Fissure

The old favourite for the order of structures moving through the superior orbital fissure was Luscious French Tarts Standing Naked In Anticipation for Lacrimal Nerve, Frontal Nerve, Trochlear Nerve, Superior Ophthalmic Artery, Nasocillary Nerve, Inferior Ophthalmic Artery, Abducent Nerve. In New Zealand this became Little French Terrorists Sink Nukeprotesters In Auckland.

Telecommunications

• The 25-pair color code used for telephone wiring can be memorized using the following mnemonics:
  • Ring colors: Bell Operators Give Better Service
  • Tip colors: Why Run Backwards? You'll Vomit

Please do not remove "unreferenced" tags...

...unless you are, in fact, supplying references. These tags serve several functions.

First, they alert the reader to content that does not confirm with Misplaced Pages's verifiability policy and may be unreliable. They mark the section as a sort of outline or draft rather than finished material.

Second, they alert any editor who has the page on their watchlist, giving people who submitted material a chance to add references. For example, I added an unreferenced item a long time ago to the article on Harvard University... the one beginning "The social milieu at Harvard is depicted in Owen Wister's Philosophy 4..." I didn't put in a reference at the time, partly because adding references used to be technically more difficult than it is now, but I had one. I was glad an editor had tagged it, and was able to provide the reference promptly. This often happens.

It can easily take a week or more for someone who isn't a Wikipedian regular to notice a change and respond to it. Even when all that's being done is to move content to an article's Talk page, it is important to give people fair notice.

As to the tags being ugly: yes, they are, but they reflect the underlying ugliness the content: many pages of material that does not provide sources and, in this case, is probably is not derived from content published elsewhere, as required by WP:V, but represent something like original research. Dpbsmith (talk) 09:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the tags are being overused in this case. In this case, the tags are being used to be helpful for the contributors to the encyclopedia, while serving no useful purpose to the readers.

They serve the reader by cautioning them that the material in them does not meet Misplaced Pages policy. The alternative would be to remove them from the article immediately. I think it's better to tag them. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:35, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the readers should come first, and we should not clutter up articles with drafting comments except when there is something seriously wrong with it. In this case, most of the sections are just giving examples of mnemonics. These are not controversial facts, and while it would be nice to have more sources, it's not like the article is going to libel someone or be held up as an example of poor scholarship. Enchanter 11:30, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Adding to what I said earlier, I think that most of the references that have been added to the article add very little to the article.

Citing sources, and providing references, is important to Misplaced Pages. It provides a way for other readers to check the factual accuracy of claims made in an article. However, the references that have been added support only very limited claims.

For example, take a specific mnemonic here "'OIL RIG:' Oxidation i loss of electrons ('OIL'), Reduction is gain of electrons ('RIG')." If the only claim is that this is a mnemonic that can potentially be used to memorise that piece of information, then I think it is self-evidently true; requiring a citation would be like requiring citations for facts like "fish is a four letter word".

If the claim is that it is in fact a mnemonic widely used by a certain group of people, the citation given does absolutely nothing to support this - all it shows is that that mnemonic was published in one particular publication. The author could have just made it up on the spot.

Don't get me wrong - citing sources and verification are very important policies. However, the way that it is being interpreted here defies common sense. It seems to be saying that if a Wikipedian makes up a mnemonic on the spot and includes it, then it should not be included, but if someone makes up the same mnemonic and includes it in just one citable publication, then that suddenly makes it OK.

"It seems to be saying that if a Wikipedian makes up a mnemonic on the spot and includes it, then it should not be included, but if someone makes up the same mnemonic and includes it in just one citable publication, then that suddenly makes it OK." I believe this to be precisely what the verifiability policy does mean. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:33, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

This adds absolutely nothing to the factual accuracy of Misplaced Pages, which is what the verifiability policy is there to achieve.

No, the verifiability policy is not to ensure that facts are "true," but that they are traceable to a published source. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:39, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

By contrast, if we want to make a statement like "such and such a mnemonic was widely used in 18th Century England", then it could and should be backed up by a source such as, for example, a peer reviewed "history of mnemonics". That would be fine, and would genuinely add to the factual accuracy and verifiability of the article. But such references are rare, and that's not the sort of reference I see being added here.

I think we need to make a choice; for each mnemonic, we need to either tolerate it being in there as "just an example", with no specific claims about who if anyone might have used it, or include a source that specifically comments on mnemonics and how they are used. As such sources are rare, I think many of these mnemonics will remain unsourced and there as examples, and I don't think we should have a big problem with that. The Britannica article of the same title, for example, gives several examples of mnemonics, ranging from some that are well known "thirty days hath September..." and some that look like they were probably made up on the spot "you can remember the name Reagan by thinking of a Ray-Gun". The fact that they are given as examples and are not sourced does not seriously detract from the readability, usefulness, or scholarly integrity of the article.

For these reasons, I think that those "unreferenced" section tags should go. Putting lots of big tags asking for contributions should be a last resort for where there are real problems with an article, and I just don't see that there Indeed, as it stands, in general the referenced sections contain no more factual, verifiable claims than the unreferenced ones. References that don't back up factual claims made in the article in any significant way are just clutter, and shouldn't be encouraged. Enchanter 00:08, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Please discuss this at Wikipedia_Talk:Verifiability, and/or Wikipedia_Talk:No original research, not here. Both of these policies are "non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus," so this page is not the place to discuss them.

I don't think there's any conflict with WP:V here. The issue is whether the references are actually backing up claims in the article, i.e. are they reliable sources? We agree that if you have a cranky theory and put it up on a non-peer reviewed website, then that in itself doesn't make it includable. You would need to get your theory published in a publication with reputation for reliability and peer review. That means that someone will have fact-checked and scrutinised your theory, and endorsed it in some way though publication.

The trouble with mnemonics is that most of the available sources are just sources that mention the mnemonics - they won't have scrutinized them or peer reviewed them in any way. For example, I would suspect that the editors of this source wouldn't have put the mnemonics under any scrutiny beyond saying "That's a cool mnemonic! We'll put it in". This is not much different to the level of scrutiny given to new additions to the Misplaced Pages article. Similarly, the authors of textbooks and articles can and do just make up mnemonics, so the inclusion of a mnemonic in a textbook doesn't necessarily make it particularly notable.

I have no problem with the principle of referencing where we can find high quality references that genuinely make a statement about when mnemonics are used, such as a survey or history of mnemonics. But I don't think that WP:V should be interpreted as requiring or even encouraging the inclusion of unreliable sources merely to justify the mention of something in the encyclopedia.Enchanter 01:28, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

If you think there are valid reasons for articles like this one to contain first publication of oral tradition, or to include individual, original contributions of clever, freshly invented mnemonics, please make the case there and get consensus for the policy change. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:33, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

P. S. If the purpose is to give representative examples of how first-letter mnemonics work, we don't need forty-four examples. A handful of most famous, most widely cited, and most familiar would do. This portion of the article is not an illustration of first-letter mnemonics, it is a collectively authored work mixing up familiar mnemonics, oral folklore, and demonstrations of creativity. All intrinsically worthwhile, but not in a Misplaced Pages article. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:44, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I am in agreement that there are many more examples here than are needed to effectively illustrate this article. I suggest that we find an alternative home for them outside the encyclopedia; for example, they could perhaps go in a "mnemonics collection" on Wikibooks, where people could add mnemonics they find useful to their hearts' content (and I would suggest this whether or not they are sourced - at the end of the day, it's not the role of an encyclopedia to be an exhaustive dictionary of mnemonics). Enchanter 00:28, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

P. P. S. On the other hand, you make some good points... so I'm inviting other Wikipedians to discuss this (RFC, below). Dpbsmith (talk) 22:30, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

RfC: How should WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:CITE be applied to unsourced examples of first-letter mnemonics?

The article contained about seventy-five unsourced examples of "first-letter mnemonics," probably representing a mix of well-known but uncited mnemonics, unpublished orally transmitted folk culture, and original creations. Should the WP:V, WP:CITE, and WP:NOR policies be interpreted as allowing such material, on the basis that it is self-verifying (i.e. anyone can see by inspection that the initial letters of "Kinky People Can Often Find Good Sex match those Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, and Species, and the source of the mnemonic is of no practical concern)?

Comment: Two claims attach to the mnemonics listed in the article. First, an explicit claim that they are actual first-letter mnemonics. This is self-verifying. Second, an implicit claim that they are in popular use. The second claim is what requires the citations. For readability, I recommend cutting the list down to 1 to 3 examples, chosen by which have the best citations. -- Alan McBeth 04:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

The number of mnemonic examples definitely needs to be reduced. Also, I think that, while it may be a matter of judgement, non-standard or off-the-top of head mnemonics should not be included. —Centrx→talk • 04:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

New Engineering mnemonic

It seems to me that the "rightey tightey, lefty loosey" mnemonic is much more general than a specific engineering application of the mnemonic. Perhaps the mnemonic given should be placed under "mechanical applications" or something of the like.

Also, and more importantly, is it worth noting that a very common electrical engineering method for remembering the color-coded magnitude of resistors utilizes the mnemonic: "Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly" for the colors Black Brown Red Orange Green Blue Violet Gray White? The word "rape" is also sometimes stated "ravish" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.151.12.205 (talk • contribs)

I don't think it nececssarily noteworthy, but if you really want it in there, I'd say it's ok, though I would strongly recommend using the "ravish" version, just for the sake of not needlessly offending anyone. Also, please sign your comments on talk pages using four tildes, like this: ~~~~. Thanks! B.Mearns, KSC 19:05, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

why no mnemonic for mnemonic ?

I think the article lacks the obvious example of a mnemonic for spelling mnemonic; e.g. Memory Never Ever Means One No's (sic) If Correct. M@T arragano m@T arragano

How to revert back to previous article? (accidentally truncated it)

Hi guys, Just now I added a mnemonic in Information Systems. But when I refreshed the page, my post truncated some of the article. I did a search on Google and it is said that there is a known bug in Firefox with Google Toolbar installed (I'm using those). My deepest apology on this mistake. Can anyone please revert the article? Because I don't want to add more mess into it.

Thanks a lot guys:)

External link issue, Please advice

Hey guys,

I’ve tried to add a link to the http://www.Pmemory.com/book.html (external links) but someone keeps deleting it. I don’t understand the problem. The page is about new/modern mnemonic system which is far more advanced and powerful than any other systems. As I understood the main concern is Copyrights. How can I fix this issue? I am the owner of the website and the system. The book is free to public. I would appreciate your advice.

Thanks. Ruslan M.

1. Choron, Sandra. College in a Can. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) p. 155, ""Kings Play Cards On Fairly Good Soft Velvet ("Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species, Variety) or "Kids Pour Catsup Over Green Spiders "Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Genus, Species)"
2. Swansburg, Russell C (1995). Nursing Staff Development. Jones and Bartlett Publishers. ISBN 0867206586. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help), p. 88: "An example of this is the mnemonic used by most nursing students to remember the cranial nerves: On Old Olympus' Towering Top a Finn and German Viewed Some Hops."