Misplaced Pages

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• Refining the administrator elections process
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• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
• LLM/chatbot comments in discussions

Competence and civility issues with Koala15

• Koala15 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

My latest encounter with Koala15 was on the Ted 2 page, where I fixed a fairly simple grammatical error and was blankly reverted on sight . I reverted back with the summary "Unexplained" and he kept edit warring with the summary "Go home, your drunk" . This happened again, until General Ization issued an EW warning on my talk page, and a civility warning on Koala15's page. Koala15 repeatedly refused to apologize or even acknowledge that he was edit warring, dismissing General Ization with sentences such as "Have a sense of humor" and "There is no need for you to get so worked up over this", assuring him that he matter had been resolved, when in fact, it was not - and still is not. I explained very clearly on my talk page why I performed said edit, which prompted Koala15 to respond with a guideline that directly contradicts his edit - which I also explained. However, he refuses to "get it", while writing replies on the grammar level of a twelve year old - which I extensively tried to explain within the same discussion, examples being seeing him "use patently incorrect expressions like "more clearer", open a sentence with "hence", miss punctuation, or consistently not capitalize "I" as in first person", not to mention his first reply to me via edit summary: "Go home, your drunk".

A quick look on Koala15's talk page will reveal that he has been taunting other editors for a while, in an abrasive and unapologetic manner. A few select examples: User talk:Koala15#Reversions... , User talk:Koala15#July 2015 , User talk:Koala15#No , User talk:Koala15#Redirecting . Another example of insisting on edit warring and being rude is here. I would like to finish this nuisance on the Ted 2 page and move on, but I would like to ensure that he doesn't spite revert me again. Please take care of this matter. Misplaced Pages isn't supposed to be about this at all. Thank you very much. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 20:38, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Well i tried to work with you, but you don't seem to wanna work with me. Most of the things you are linking from my talk page are simple misunderstandings. And i don't think you can report anyone for a 'lack of competence". Koala15 (talk) 21:19, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

How ironic... you have just given another dismissive and offensive reply. You are either not realizing it or deliberately insulting me, and neither case is welcome on Misplaced Pages. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 21:24, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I have had my own run-ins with Koala15, which can be seen at Talk:Penguins of Madagascar and Penguins of Madagascar. Koala15 had initially participated in WP:OWNBEHAVIOR over a copyedit tag about the article with a reason saying "And i do think an IP's suggestion is less valid, cause the majority of them are vandals.". Not all IPs are vandals. Some contribute with no issues at all. I find that comment uncivil and rather a POV statement. They persistently removed the tag until they reached 3 reverts. They stayed quiet on the article, but they removed it again but this time with reasons but not valid ones. There was still WP:Consensus going on in the talk page, which Koala15 dismissed. Instead of participating in WP:Discussion and ask for opinions, they removed the template again. I reverted them, stating that they weren't the user who added the template and to remove it from a user who disagreed with it in the beginning is very questionable. They started edit warring, making 5 reverts within a span of 12 hours, I believe. If they reached the 6th revert, I was going to report them. My warnings can be seen on the user's talk page and PfM's talk page. In terms of Koala15, I do think they make good edits and they help the community, but my only concern is the way they act. Upon disagreements they edit war and so on, it seems. I do agree that saying a user is drunk is uncivil as much as saying to a user they need help. It seems they have had run-ins with other people, excluding me, EauZenCashHaveIt and General Ization. I would suggest a warning about continuing disruptive editing but I'm not sure. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 21:34, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Well i apologize, i shouldn't have removed those maintenance templates without asking. And i don't think its fair to say i participated in WP:OWNBEHAVIOR. Koala15 (talk) 21:40, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Per one of the bullets, "An editor reverts a change simply because the editor finds it "unnecessary" without claiming that the change is detrimental." You removed the template with this reasoning: "Uhm, yeah no." which certainly counts as you saying it's unnecessary without valid reasons and follows on of the statements "I can see nothing wrong with the article and there is no need to change anything at all." which you've given the impression (not even at this point) since the beginning and on the talk page. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 22:10, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• Note for reviewing admins: here's the last "clean" version of Koala15's talk page, before he panicked and blanked it in order to invalidate the links I brought up earlier: . EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 21:57, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, it was time they cleaned their talk page (no offense, Koala15). It was so long, over 200 posts. They kept some stuff, so I don't think it would really matter since it's their talk page. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 22:10, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

The timing though... anyway, I've said too much already. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 22:18, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• First, 200 posts going all the way back to 2012 probably needs archiving (and no, archiving isn't just blanking all the warnings) but that's not the issue here. Second, Misplaced Pages:Competence is required which includes social competency. Koala15's edits are problematic. Insulting and being uncivil is a concern. Individuals who cannot corroborate effectively have been shown the door before. I'd say there's civility here but I'll let some others chime on what they think should be done. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:50, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
• Having had run-ins with Koala15 before, some of which have been referenced in this post, I thought I'd also chime in. While their edits themselves are not disruptive or problematic, aside from a lack of edit summary usage, Koala15's conduct towards other users is condescending, patronizing and downright rude in some cases. On multiple occasions I have been told by the user that I don't understand Misplaced Pages, ("You don't understand the guidelines") and that I'm a newbie who interprets policies wrong ("I understand that you are new here, but you seem to lack a simple understanding of the rules of Misplaced Pages."), which if anyone else has been on the receiving end of, would know that it's incredibly frustrating. Initially I thought I was the only one to be scolded as deluded by Koala15, but apparently I'm not the only one. A quick CNTRL+F searching for the word "understand" on an old revision of their talk page shows three distinct immediate instances where Koala15 downplayed other editors, brushing them off as not understanding some aspect of the project: I'm not even gonna bother responding to this nonsense, cause you clearly don't even have a basic understanding of Misplaced Pages., "Once again you show that you don't understand the guidelines." and "It sounds like you don't understand Misplaced Pages." and "You are possibly the most clueless editor i have ever met.". While Koala15's talk page only showed a few instances of their incivility, I imagine I wasn't the first to be insulted on their talk page or via edit summaries. A block doesn't seem appropriate to me, and would quite possibly chase Koala15 away, given how bitter and angry they already come off with a near-clean block log, but an assurance from the user that the'll try and be more civil and get off their high horse would be nice. Azealia911 _talk 10:36, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Koala15 care to respond? Azealia911 _talk 10:13, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Well its easy to take my quotes out of context and try to me make me look bad, but in the context of the conversation they were more or less facts. Either way you seem like a good editor, it just took you a while to fully understand the guidelines. Which is fine, it took me a while when i first joined Misplaced Pages. Koala15 (talk) 15:03, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Oh Koala15, you really are being serious aren't you? You're not even trolling, sigh. I guess that means no chance of an apology for being rude and condescending? (the latter of which is ironically displayed in your most recent reply). Azealia911 _talk 17:21, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Well its definitely not my intention to be "rude and condescending" that's just how I talk. I think its really a matter of how you choose to interpret my words. In the future, i will try to be more thoughtful with my reply's since it bothers everyone so much. Now hopefully we can put this whole thing behind us and move on. Koala15 (talk) 18:12, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

No, we can't... at least not while you maintain these dismissive and unapologetic replies. Each and every one of those reinforces the incompetence claim. You've been told the same thing by everyone here: apologize, show genuine regret, and we will move on. Your telling everyone to move on while sarcastically dismissing every concern raised on this page is nothing short of offensive. Notice that it's you who keeps brushing off every opportunity to make things right. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 23:54, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

I second EauZenCashHaveIt's comments, completely accurate. Koala15, your replies just demonstrate what everyone here is trying to tell you, you just seem to not be hearing us, replying with the behavior and tone that landed you here. Back handed comments like "Either way you seem like a good editor, it just took you a while to fully understand the guidelines" don't do anything but frustrate me, and "I think its really a matter of how you choose to interpret my words" is absurd, so it's our fault for getting offended at what you say? "i will try to be more thoughtful with my reply's since it bothers everyone so much" you say, acting as if we're burdening you with actually being...nice?! Maybe take responsibility for your actions, genuinely apologize (which you have yet to do) and maybe then we can move on. Azealia911 _talk 18:48, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

I thought i did apologize. But yes i apologize if i offended anyone, that was definitely not my intention. Hopefully we can move on now. Koala15 (talk) 18:55, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for apologising Koala15, yep, that's all I needed, take care. Azealia911 _talk 19:06, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

jeez a bit hypocritical to talk about incivility when you're saying he has the grammar of a 12 year old. and why would you care about grammar on the internet anyway? poli 19:00, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

I was wondering when the usual devil's advocate would make their appearance. This is an encyclopedia, grammar is a basic requirement here. And most importantly: while Azealia may or may not have gotten their apology, the general issue is still unresolved. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 19:50, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

obsessing over grammar is so pretentious. i promise you're not smarter than anyone else here so chill. poli 22:34, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Would you like your name to be added to the report? EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 00:32, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

that's so petty. smh poli 02:22, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

• EauZenCashHaveIt, what exactly are you looking to happen? Koala15 has apologized and said that they will be more thoughtful with their conduct. I say leave it, we've given them the rope, its their choice to hang themselves with more rudeness, land back here, and ultimately be blocked, or lasso their next edits with both hands (yes, that is literally the only analogy I could think of for positive things to do with rope). What else would you propose? Azealia911 _talk 19:14, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

@Azealia911: I am looking for a more permanent solution than an obviously insincere apology with no indication of any behavioral change. But hey, if there are no takers then I guess we both have better things to do than bark up that tree. If you are satisfied then I won't say anything, at least until something new happens. Sadly, I have a feeling I am not mistaken. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 19:30, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

EauZenCashHaveIt I can also see us returning here, but that's up to Koala15. If required, bring it back here and I'll be the first to recommend implications. Azealia911 _talk 16:31, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

• To me, Koala15's contribution to this new discussion on their Talk page suggests that Koala15 has learned nothing from this process. Still arbitrarily removing maintenance templates from articles without participating in the discussions they reference, a behavior just recently discussed with them here. General Ization 18:34, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Christ, didn't take them long, I really did think they'd be more considerate. General Ization what do you suggest doing? Azealia911 _talk 18:51, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

I really don't know. I know I spent more time than I could really afford to trying to explain to them why this is a problem on their Talk page and here, and what mostly comes back is from the editor is I didn't hear that. I really think it's a competence issue. General Ization 18:57, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Definitely seems like the case, considering their edits aren't specific to one or one set of pages, perhaps a short term block would be appropriate. Azealia911 _talk 19:15, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, i make mistakes like everyone else, Jeez, i didn't realize my every edit would be under a microscope. Its also strange that you have my talk page watchlisted. Koala15 (talk) 21:25, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Everyone whose edits cause them to be brought to this page will find their subsequent edits to be "under a microscope" for some period of time, especially while the case is unresolved. Most at least make an effort to not engage in the same behaviors during that time. And it's not strange at all – your Talk page was placed on my watch list when you and I discussed the matter above. General Ization 21:29, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

It was my bad, i didn't know what the statute of limitations was on page a split discussion that had no responses. I realized it was a mistake after i did it. I will refrain from making edits like that in the future. I go on Misplaced Pages for fun, and i'm not here to start trouble or anything like that. I'm gonna try to stay out of things like this and mind my own business. Koala15 (talk) 21:42, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Since the template was just placed this month (and says so within the template as any reader sees it), you might reasonably have assumed it had not expired; if you were unsure, you could click the Discuss link and ask. Your "No need for a discussion" comment linked above shows either a lack of understanding or contempt for editing processes here, not confusion over an expiration date. General Ization 21:58, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Since Koala15 has decided to play possum, I am asking the patrolling admins to make the appropriate decision here. This discussion cannot simply vanish as stale. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 20:38, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm definitely seeing Koala15's edits as problematic after going through the diffs. No specific action has been proposed yet, but there may be some lingering hope Koala can improve. My first thought was to just close this with the closer stating that if this kind of issue happens again, that would expedite a block by linking back to that decision. A short term block could be used instead of essentially a warning, but both would take a WP:ROPE approach. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:16, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Kingofaces43 EauZenCashHaveIt, I'd be more lenient to go with a short-block, maybe as short as two weeks. Earlier on this post, I urged nothing to happen, giving Koala15 the rope, and within two days they were removing merger notices and playing the old apologetic "I'll never do it again" card, when it had been discussed with them before. I'm not sure how many times Koala15 expects us to take their fake apologies before doing anything. The block may be the wake-up call they need to understand their attitude and actions won't be at all tolerated. Azealia911 _talk 17:28, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Agree with Azealia911. In fairness, Koala15 has in fact seemed to "stay out of things like this and mind own business" (as they put it above) for the past week or so, but without a real understanding by Koala15 of why their (past) behavior is a problem, all it will take is one editor to object to/revert one of their edits (rightly or wrongly) and I expect we'll be right back here again. I haven't heard or seen anything here that makes me think that understanding exists as yet. General Ization 20:51, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Seems reasonable. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 23:03, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

My experience with Koala15 at Penguins of Madagascar was similar to User:Tokyogirl79's in February. This wasn't a controversial topic or sensitive BLP. The article's about a movie that features talking commando penguins. After some edits to it I later added a tag regarding prose issues and a thousand-word quotefarm plus explained the tag on the Talk page. Koala reverts with a derisory summary. I restore days later due to the encyclopedic text and non-free content concerns and post on his talkpage: Koala responds dismissively and immediately undoes my edit as vandalism. Only after multiple other editors become involved does he finally visit the Talk page.

He engages in IDHT--continuing to say he doesn't see the problem ("as far as I know this is how the majority of reception sections are written") and asking for suggestions on to how to fix it--despite multiple editors having already provided them, edit-wars over the tag, plus adds quoteboxes making the quotefarm even more glaring. We assume good faith and spend time explaining. Only later to discover it's all happened before. –146.200.32.196 (talk) 14:38, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Proposed short-term block for Koala15

I'll repeat a comment I made above, earlier in this post, I urged nothing to happen to Koala15, giving them the "rope", and within two days they were removing merger notices and playing the old apologetic "I'll never do it again" card, when the same issue had been discussed with them before. I'm not sure how many times Koala15 expects us to take their fake apologies before doing anything. A block may be the wake-up call they need to understand their attitude and actions won't be at all tolerated. The amount of said block can be determined by whoever closes the post.

Pinging all past contributors who may not keep track of the post: EauZenCashHaveIt, General Ization, Callmemirela, Ricky81682, Kingofaces43, Politoed89, and most importantly Koala15.

• Support as proposer – recommending a 2-4 week block. Azealia911 _talk 01:23, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Striking my support, may sound odd considering I'm the proposer. I've decided to give Koala15 one last chance, their recent behavior has seemed less aggressive and more open to discussion. Weather that lasts is up to them, but I firmly believe they'll reduce their negativity on the site for the foreseeable future. But this isn't an oppose, I'm staying neutral, I think comments from both sides are equally valid. Azealia911 _talk 22:25, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support per preceding thread. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 01:28, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support per proposer's comments (thanks) and my comments above. General Ization 01:32, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Comment I don't see why you guys are so against giving me another chance to redeem myself. I admit I made a few mistakes, but I don't think we should overlook all of the good work I have done on here in the past few years. I genuinely promise to have a better attitude when communicating with other editors. I look forward to working with you all again in a positive way. Koala15 (talk) 02:44, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

No one's against your having, or denying you, a chance to redeem yourself. If we were, we would be proposing an indefinite block (which none of us think is appropriate at this time). You will hopefully redeem yourself in any case. But it's precisely because you're thinking of this matter as so trivial that a block is appropriate. Many editors who produce good edits but cannot collaborate constructively with other editors have been blocked before you and many will be blocked after you. Assuming our proposal is implemented, please spend at least some of the time actually reading the many Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines we have tried over several weeks to get you to consider carefully. General Ization 02:52, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't see why a block is necessary, I'm not gonna learn anything that i already haven't. I am gonna make a change in my behavior on here from this day on. And if you catch me breaking any rules, than block me. Take me at my word on this one. Koala15 (talk) 03:02, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

To me, this attitude right here is the epitome of your problem. You don't get to tell us what is necessary and what is not necessary. You can ask, you can argue your case, or anything else that is genuinely collaborative. You are still trying to take the lead and dictate the outcome. This is why the block is proposed. Azealia911, General Ization and others - I am not sure how else I can put it. @Chillum: this should address your concern. Nothing has changed. Literally, nothing. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 06:51, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

• Neutral. I have no preference on a short term block either way. It's clear that this editor will be back to editing in awhile even if they were blocked, so the the important thing for this conversation is to show that they are sitting on their last chance per WP:ROPE if the issue comes up again. Sometimes ANI closures aren't clear on this, so as long as that point gets across, I'm content with just closing this as such. A block will demonstrate that as much as a well-worded close (and may be warranted given the continued behavior that popped up, but I'm not digging further into this to evaluate that), so I'm fine either way. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:07, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose The block would not be preventative at this point in my opinion. If anyone can explain how it would be preventative I will gladly reconsider. Chillum 03:13, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

My hope is that it will give the editor some (enforced) time, if they are so inclined, to actually learn how to be a better and more collaborative editor, rather than just editing in a vacuum. A "time out" if you will. We've been hearing a lot of I didn't hear that from Koala15, and my personal opinion is that it's because they won't stop editing long enough to actually read policies and guidelines and learn how to and why they should avoid this kind of issue. If they were not so inclined, then indeed all it would do is give them a reason to remember that incivility and disruptive editing have consequences. General Ization 03:23, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per Chillum, it sounds more a punitive than a preventive block. Also, while Koala certainly had been sometimes rude, most of the differences above just document talk page discussions, but not the actual "incidents", or at least not the whole picture, so it is hard to judge who is really innocent here. Eg, it was linked at least three times (if I have not missed some other links) this talk page discussion as a proof of Koala's problematic behavior, yet it all started by an editor boldly redirecting a Koala's article a few hours after it had been created and then edit warring with Koala to have it redirected without any community discussion. The dispute eventually ended in an AfD, where the article was kept with no votes for deletion outside the nominator. The same with the Ted 2 incident, where the opener of this ANI discussion just showed some incompetence (he, not Koala), first battling to add a bizarre and non-standard "Elsewhere in the United States" in the infobox-date of release , then, after being explained why he was wrong, still trying to remove the premiere date with a poor rationale . Rudeness is not excusable, and Koala should be more collaborative and use the edit summaries to immediately explain his actions and not to attack other editors, but the context is important, and so far the "incidents" do not rise to a level requiring a block IMO. Cavarrone 07:56, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment: it's a shame that the devil's advocate sometimes wears an admin's hat. In their opposing statement, Cavarrone seems to have turned the wheel around and accused me, Koala15's victim, of incompetence, having completely ignored a discussion which I cited earlier. There is a considerable difference between sheer unprovoked rudeness and a stern reaction to sheer unprovoked rudeness, but apparently, to them the two are one and the same. This doesn't look very neutral to me, but I will be more than happy to be proven wrong. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 23:33, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
• Neutral, as stated in my intial comment above. Whilst I do believe Koala15 has good editing-related intentions, discussion-wise is a mess. I do believe that they are aware of the issue of civility and so on. They are being watched and if any further comments that are deemed uncivil, inappropriate, and so on, they will be reported once more and consequently blocked as they were given chances. And I will take their above comment "If I break the rules, block me." (not exact) seriously. I expect them to learn their mistakes and choose their words carefully instead of being rude and uncalled for. I choose to believe they will stop edit warring and stop engaging in OWNBEHAVIOR and start discussing in good matters. And that their competence here will improve. The way they type and what they say are supporting that issue. Thank you for the ping, Eau (I really don't know your username that easily) Callmemirela {Talk} ♑ 20:50, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support short term block up to a month (uninvolved non admin) Clearly preventive block to stop the ongoing problems that resurface in no time. Perhaps the time off will also bring about a change for the better and prevent this from happening again. AlbinoFerret 19:53, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose as I don't think a short-term block will do what a previous block and about 85 warnings & interventions did not. Then there's around 15 copyright etc. notices. How many warnings does he get? His response to the CCI notification was typical, brushed off as old news (I'm positive the blatant copyvios weren't mentioned on his talkpage) and a "trend" of trying to get him blocked. The usual way we deal with those who create long-term copyright problems and refuse to mend their ways despite warnings is an indefinite vacation from editing. –146.200.32.196 (talk) 22:39, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Long term disruption and copyvios

Hi, I'm the editor who User:Callmemirela indirectly referred to above. I want to put this one to bed so we can all move on, too. Having looked into this a bit more, however, there're some additional aspects that should be taken into consideration. Unfortunately, it'll take me just a little while longer to put the details into a neat orderly manner, dot the i's and cross the t's so to speak, ready to post here. I'm pretty sure I can do so within 24hrs. –146.200.32.196 (talk) 02:55, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

While we wait, or to help us/admins decide whether we should, it would be helpful to understand your relationship to the case (since you are currently an IP with only this edit in your history). Are you the editor who formerly used IP 146.198.28.207 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 146.199.67.6 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (see contribs)? General Ization 03:13, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes. (Powercut last night.) Incidentally, thank you for your application of meatball:DefendEachOther at the talkpage. Looking into this took a while (complexity and depth of the edit history among other factors) and, as we can see, a poll began in the meantime. It's preferable that reports here don't stay open for extended periods, so I can understand why EauZenC initiated it. 146.200.32.196 (talk) 03:53, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

@146.200.32.196: Did you plan to provide us with some additional insight concerning this matter, as your post above suggested? If so, please do so quickly or if not, please let us know, so that either way we can move this case toward closure. It's unfair both to the subject editor and the rest of us watching this section to leave it in limbo any longer. General Ization 16:55, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

I apologise to the community. In hindsight my 24hrs estimate was over optimistic. I misjudged the time needed wrt the large quantity of edits. Fortunately, having worked through the night, twice, things moved right along. I do intend to provide some additional material facts asap, so we can wrap this up. I'll come back here later today. Thanks. 146.200.32.196 (talk) 09:28, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Seemingly the IP's 72 hour estimate was also unrealistic. Move for closure, as at this point I can't imagine what revelations they could bring to the discussion that would make it worth our waiting any longer. General Ization 18:29, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I see now that the IP has added to the open discussion above today, though they do not offer a closing recommendation. So I again move for closure, but now because it appears all who have an interest in commenting on this matter have done so. General Ization 20:14, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

The IP's entry only reinforces the view of Koala15 as ill-faithed (not sure if this is a good antonym for good faith) and a repeat offender that has not shown any signs of real regret for their actions. As far as I see it, they are a ticking time bomb. Closure without action is precisely what they are hoping for. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 09:23, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• List of Warner Bros. films - Hello. I'm having an issue with the same user. He's deleting information that has been proven with citations from reliable sources. He's doing so on the basis of what he thinks is necessary on the page, whereas it's not entirely up to him. StephenCezar15 (talk) 18:41, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

It's been nearly four days since somebody commented on this, and nobody else seems interested to comment, what's been said seems to be all that'll be said, can this be closed please? With the closer doing what they see fit? Azealia911 _talk 21:06, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Final note to closer: An IP who commented on this post has seemingly been working on an account of Koala15's disruptive behavior, a very detailed account of it to be exact. After checking on it every couple days, work on it seems to have stopped. It may be worth giving it a full read through before making a formal decision on how to proceed with actions upon closure. The account of their behavior can be found here. Azealia911 _talk 23:26, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

@Azealia911: In future please ask or notify a fellow editor before linking their notes (esp. if edited in the last 48hrs) on a highly-watched page and inviting everyone to go look. Please read this. Thanks. 146.200.32.196 (talk) 21:25, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

My linking to your notes was a move of panic, not one of ignorance. You'd seemingly finished with the notes, and forgotten to link them here, and had been offline for a couple of days. Myself and another editor had requested this be closed and I didn't want to take the chance of waiting days for you to respond, to only have this be closed while waiting. Yes, in hindsight, I should have, I apologise. I should add though, I gravely resent your request that I read WP:HUMAN. You know full well that I respect you, as I do with all editors exactly the same. I suggest if you don't want something seen by the community, don't save it for the community to see, perhaps write, preview, and copy/paste to an offline document in the future. Best, Azealia911 _talk 22:10, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I intentionally worked on it in plain sight, rather than solely offline, so others might see what I was working on. That's not the same as pointing folks to my rough notes on a high-traffic page without so much as a talkpage note (much less 'will you be posting your notes or would you like a hand perhaps?'). And these had after all been edited within the last 48hrs. I wasn't seeking an apology only that you learn what may be learnt and move on. On reflection, if there were do-overs there'd be several things in this whole saga I'd do differently myself. Like you pretty much say, hindsight's a wonderful thing. Best, 146.200.32.196 (talk) 04:27, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

That is a very interesting and very detailed log. It hasn't been worked on in two days, and the penultimate edit summary is "kinda done with this", so I hope he or she posts it here in the next few days. Especially since this ANI has been here for going on one month at this point, and the IP said a week ago s/he could have it for us "within 24 hrs". Softlavender (talk) 02:55, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Softlavender, although I didn't say quite say that. I said I hoped to add additional info and did post a comment (on their recidivist edit-warring). I overran by a day or so on that and apologised for the delay. I do agree the thread's gone on a while, though I only came across it more recently. –146.200.32.196 (talk) 19:27, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

(←) Koala15's behaviour has been tendentious and disruptive for as long as he's edited here. There's a long history of problem reverts, edit warring, refusal to collaborate and accept consensus, and copyvios.

Unfortunately a prior block plenty of polite engagement and warnings all had little effect. He's had warnings and reminders every month since 2012, over 100 of them.() According to User:Cryptic in April, he's a prolific edit-warrer on non-free images, too. Edit summary use in mainspace remains minimal at around 7%, and, when he does use them, they're often uncollegial or deceptive. He refuses to take responsibility for his actions and has made insincere apologies and empty promises.

Those who bring concerns to him are fobbed off on a string of pretexts or he downplays the matter to others as "misunderstandings" or "simple disagreement", ignoring his refusal to discuss it. This was exactly my experience. In content disputes or otherwise he engages in disruptive behavior with edit warring and personal attacks to get what he wants, and shows absolutely no sign he will stop. On at least two occasions it seems significantly likely his hostility drove editors off Misplaced Pages altogether.

On top of this there are attempts to conceal his behaviour and game the system. He'll caution others over conduct he persistently engages in or, say, try to excuse an unexplained revert afterwards saying the edit would've pushed an already long plot over 700 words (when it did so barely or not at all) but copypaste 1200+ word plots from websites and pass them off as his own. He also 1) outright lies that he wrote copyrighted content 2) cherrypicks from guidelines, ignoring clear admonitions against lengthy and excessive quotations plus 3) edit-wars to keep it in, while accusing editors who try to address it of vandalism and 4) uses sources that're recently-published or whose publication times are less obvious.

The community's granted him substantial good faith because it appeared he was also doing good content work. It's now clear this comprises serial copyright violations, quotefarming, close paraphrasing, and plagiarism. It'll likely require a lengthy CCI case. Due to the long-term and recidivist nature of the disruption and copyright violations, in my view an indef-block is appropriate. –146.200.32.196 (talk) 19:28, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Xenophrenic's WP:TE at Talk:Ward Churchill academic misconduct investigation‎

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I call to your attention what I believe to be prima facie violations of WP:TE#One who ignores or refuses to answer ... by Xenophrenic at Talk:Ward_Churchill_academic_misconduct_investigation. Examples of these WP:TE violations:

1) In response to: "Justify including in the article information from a source that the source believes is absurd or manifestly untrue." You have not answered the question. How do you justify you edit?" Xenophrenic continues to not address the issue of "absurd or manifestly untrue".

2) There are a number of good-faith questions that I have asked that Xenophrenic has simply ignored; see the talk page. If you'd like I'll list them; let me know if you'd like me to do so. Deicas (talk) 21:33, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Observation from an uninvolved editor. I noticed that Xenophrenic responded to several issues that you raised.

• First, if you are going to ask a question, do so. That involves an interrogatory, not a declarative sentence.
• Second, your statements seem to be directive, as in "Justify," "hereinbelow provide," etc.
• Third, you are not entitled to an answer.
• Fourth, this appears to be WP:WIKILAWYERING.
• Finally, you may want to work on your communication style. GregJackP Boomer! 22:24, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

User:GregJackP: just above you assert "Third, you are not entitled to an answer." How do you reconcile this assertion with the Misplaced Pages policy described in WP:TE#One who ignores or refuses to answer ...?

Deicas (talk) 00:40, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

WP:TE is not a policy, it is an essay. You are not entitled to an answer. No one elected you wikigod, nor is there any policy that states you are entitled to an answer. GregJackP Boomer! 00:54, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

User:GregJackP: I call to your attention, from WP:TE, "Failure to cooperate with such simple requests may be interpreted as evidence of a bad faith effort to exasperate or waste the time of other editors.". Note, above, "How do you justify you edit?". How do you explain the failure of Xenophrenic to answer this question, which lies at the crux of the disputed edit, without seeing a violation of Misplaced Pages:Assume_good_faith obligation?

Deicas (talk) 01:18, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

User:GregJackP: with regard to your comments above "Fourth, this appears to be WP:WIKILAWYERING" and "No one elected you wikigod". Would you please either strike these comments out or justify your violation of your Misplaced Pages:Assume_good_faith obligation?

Deicas (talk) 01:18, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

WP:TE is an essay. It is not a rule, nor a policy, nor a guideline. It is what someone thinks. No more, no less.

The cites you are making above are perfect examples of wikilawyering. After you requested I strike, I looked at your edit history, and since 2004 in your 450 edits, you have been repeatedly warned about wikilawyering. It's a pattern of behavior, and you are exhibiting it here, again. Please stop doing so.

In any event, you are not entitled to an answer from Xenophrenic, nor to a further answer from me. GregJackP Boomer! 01:42, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

User:GregJackP: With regard to your "WP:TE is an essay. It is not a rule, nor a policy, nor a guideline", above: in retrospect I should have cited WP:DR which *is* policy. Specificity: "To help other editors understand the reasoning behind your edits, always explain your changes in the edit summary. If an edit is too complex to explain in an edit summary, or the change is contentious, add a section to the talk page that explains your rationale. Be prepared to justify your changes to other editors on the talk page". I have difficulty reconciling this policy with your statement above: "... you are not entitled to an answer from Xenophrenic ..."? Would you please expand on your reasoning?

Deicas (talk) 05:39, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Nope. GregJackP Boomer! 05:45, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

This seems to be a routine content dispute, acerbated by: (a) a very minor edit war or slightly aggressive BRD-ing, and (b) some difficulty reconciling communications styles between Xenophrenic, who describes themselves as "shy" about talk page comments, and Deicas, who is fairly voluminous, pointed, and slightly odd in their talk page discussion style. All in good faith no doubt, each of us has our unique voice, it just looks like people need a little extra effort to try to communicate. It's only going to become a behavior issue if people make it one, otherwise that's what talk pages are for. Although perhaps a content issue there are some significant BLP and NPOV policy issues here because we have a prominent professor who claimed (falsely it appears) to be Native American and who was fired for academic misconduct, promoting or making up untrue but widely believed historical claims that American military committed acts of genocide by spreading small pox blankets among indigenous villages. The professor is still alive and still has defenders, so this topic can get quite heated. - Wikidemon (talk) 06:42, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Even the above statement can raise discussion. I'm no fan of the wannabe, but I would state that he was "promoting or making up untrue using unsupported, but widely believed historical claims. . . ." There are some others who have published along the same lines, and it is a matter of faith among the tribes (see Denzin). I don't think it is an ANI issue. GregJackP Boomer! 07:10, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Well, that's the weirdness of Misplaced Pages's PC policies, rule #1 about fight club history is that you can't discuss fight club history. Some person, rightly upset over historical events that could justifiably be called a genocide, starts making stuff up including that he is a descendent of the victims. Meanwhile, we editors have to tiptoe around the facts because of obscure policies that affect even our ability to discuss policy amongst ourselves. So we cannot describe people as frauds or impostors, even in the rather interesting space of — what do they call this now? — trans-racialism. - Wikidemon (talk) 07:54, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

No, I agree with you that he is a fraud who took an honorary membership and went way too far with it. The problem is that there was genocide of the American Indian, but since that was one of his research areas, any proposal or position that he ever advocated is immediately attacked without ever going to the actual merits of the argument. GregJackP Boomer! 16:00, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Xenophrenic has repeatedly included information in the article deriving from Guenter Lewy's writing (ie. ) that Lewy describes as non-creditable (coming from a source that "manifestly does not suggest that the U.S. Army distributed infected blankets"). So I ask User:Xenophrenic why he's including information from Lewy that Lewy believes is not creditable. And I get no explanation. And I ask variations of the question. And spend more time. And I get no explanation. If I had a putative explanation for including non-creditable information then the content dispute is addressable. Absent an explanation then there is no content inclusion reason to discuss. Hence, I view this as a behavioural question. If as, Wikidemon suggests, this should be viewed as a NPOV issue then I'll happily agree.

Deicas (talk) 12:17, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Asked and answered above. GregJackP Boomer! 16:00, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Another way, resolving this issue as a content dispute, would be for user:Xenophrenic to provide a citation to Stiffarm and Lane for the claim that Lewy finds so objectionable. Then the portion of the article under dispute would look something like: "Stiffarm and Lane assert X . Lewy views X as not plausible because ... ".

Deicas (talk) 12:33, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

That's content, not behavior. GregJackP Boomer! 16:00, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, it is content, not behavior, but it may be a way to end the current dispute. Isn't that what we're striving for?

Deicas (talk) 17:10, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Xenophrenic just removed a portion of text with citations ] providing as the reason for the removal "(continued removal of Lewy assertion pending Talk resolution, as half of it was left in the article.)". The issue in dispute on the talk page is one, of multiple, uses of one of the deleted citations? How is this not disruptive editing? Deicas (talk) 17:03, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Would someone *please* persuade User:Xenophrenic to stop his disruptive editing? Please?

Deicas (talk) 19:18, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Is anyone interested in a proposal that, if accepted, would resolve the behavior issue, close this AN/I, and roll the dispute back to a content dispute?

Deicas (talk) 04:24, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Stalled AN/I: User:Xenophrenic's WP:TE at Talk:Ward Churchill academic misconduct investigation

Would an uninvolved administrator(s) please look at User:Xenophrenic's WP:TE at Talk:Ward Churchill academic misconduct investigation? This AN/I seems to be making no progress. Note that the article on which the disputed behaviour is occurring is flagged as "The subject of this article is controversial". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deicas (talk • contribs) 06:59, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

It's not quite a stall but things seem to be gong in the wrong direction. Not a full scale edit war, but both editors in question are now at about 2RR in the last 24 hours or so. - Wikidemon (talk) 08:22, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I second User:Wikidemon's suggestion to "Please keep discussion in one place". I suggest that the disputed article section be rolled-back to the start of this dispute and protected until this AN/I is resolved.

Deicas (talk) 08:54, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I noted that Deicas reverted Xenophrenic's edits to his preferred version, Xenophrenic answered Deicas's question on the talk page,(, noting that Wikidemon was participating in discussions) and then Deicas refused to further discuss the content issue until the ANI was resolved (, because Xenophrenic did not "comply" with the demand of Deicas), which is, in my view, disruptive on the part of Deicas. ANI is for behavior problems, not content disputes. Either this should go back to the article talk page, or we should WP:BOOMERANG Deicas for his bad faith in resolving the content dispute. This seems to clearly be an example of WP:WIKILAWYERING, which he has been warned for on multiple occasions. , , where he was topic-banned from the Paul Krugman article for similar behavior. GregJackP Boomer! 09:15, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

As User:GregJackP has allowed editing of the article section to occur concurrently with resolution of this AN/I the situation has become very confusing and the BRD cycle is not being performed.

User:GregJackP: You you assert ] "Xenophrenic answered Deicas's question on the talk page,(]". I've asked a number of questions: which *specific* question do you believe Xenophrenic meaningfully answered? What text from Xenophrenic talk page edit do you believe is the meaning answer? Deicas (talk) 12:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

User:GregJackP: I observe that you have, yet again accused] me of WP:WIKILAWYERING. You've done this before and said that my citing of Misplaced Pages policy was an act of WP:WIKILAWYERING and refused further clarification. Would you please cite the policy or guideline that deprecates the citing of policy or guidelines? Your accusation is also contrary to theWP:WIKILAWYERING essay:

Because reasoned arguments in a debate necessarily include both elements of fact and references to principles, disputants who lack such an argument sometimes try to undermine arguments they can not otherwise overcome by just tossing out the naked accusation that their opponent is a wiki-lawyer. This is not a good faith tactic and does not foster a collegial consensus-seeking atmosphere. Therefore, any accusation of wikilawyering should include a brief explanation justifying use of the term.

Deicas (talk) 12:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

User:GregJackP: You say I "*refused* to further discuss the content issue until the AN/I was resolved" this is not true. I engaged in wishful thinking that this dispute could be resolved in an orderly manner in a single location. So much for that wish. You accuse me of making a "demand". All I've done propose solutions that have been ignored. Deicas (talk) 12:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I also note the "the phrase 'You are wikilawyering' is an insult" and you also accuse me of "bad faith in resolving the content dispute". BAD FAITH? I'm just trying to persuade User:Xenophrenic to abide by the BRD cycle, thus avoiding the current chaos, and to meaningfully respond to questions about his edits and reversions . How are these actions evidence of bad faith? Deicas (talk) 12:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

: I've asked you a number of meaningful questions above. I hope that you won't again reply "In any event, you are not entitled to ... a further answer from me. "

Deicas (talk) 12:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

This edit is an example of WP:WIKILAWYERING. I also linked to places where you have been warned about it in the past, and noted that you were topic-banned from the Paul Krugman article. Those diffs and links are called evidence, at least in the wiki-sense. Keep up this nonsense and I'll propose another topic-ban. Your call. GregJackP Boomer! 12:36, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I observe you you continue to accuse me of WP:WIKILAWYERING yet you still refuse to cite the specific text that you believe constitues the offense. Careful reasoning isn't WP:WIKILAWYERING! Surely you're not claiming that every word in edit is WP:WIKILAWYERING? Perhaps you be so kind as to point out *specific* example(s) of "violating spirit or underlying principles" or "pettifogging"? Why have you allowed a simple AN/I matter that could have been resolved with a brief admonition to Xenophrenic to "meet his obligations under WP:DR"; reverting the article to the start of the dispute and; starting the BRD process; to become an opportunity to heap invective on me?

Deicas (talk) 15:21, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I provided the links, this is a habit of yours that you may want to break. I've noted that you have tried to restart the talk page discussion that you arbitrarily ended, why don't you see if that doesn't take care of the content issue? I really don't think that you want to pursue sanctions here, the last time didn't end so well for you. GregJackP Boomer! 18:28, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

: I continue to seek sanctions. What needs to be done to resolve this matter? Please advise. I note you are advocating the deletion of the article over which this editing conduct AN/I is based. I note that you are overtly sympathetic ("This user knows the Black Hills were illegally stolen from the Sioux ..." on your user page) to the cause for which Ward Churchill advocated and Ward Churchill academic misconduct investigation brought discredit upon. Are you indeed an "uninvolved administrator"?

Deicas (talk) 19:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Which "talk page discussion that you arbitrarily ended" did I end? How could I "end" a talk page discussion?

Deicas (talk) 19:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I note that Xenophrenic is back to his WP:DR violations, by failing to provide requested editing reasoning, at the talk page. What is necessary to get this AN/I resolved and Xenophrenic's conduct corrected? Deicas (talk) 19:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Please see this talk page section and these two diffs and for more examples of Xenophrenic's problematic editing. Deicas (talk) 22:45, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Topic Ban violation by User:TripWire

TripWire was topic banned by Future Perfect at Sunrise for 6 Months from all edits related to Pakistani politics and Indian/Pakistani conflicts, for a period of 6 months.

His block still exists. Still he violates ban and defend himself with comments like this

1, 2, 3, 4, 5.112.79.39.220 (talk) 11:56, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

First Sir, have the courage to use your actual ID to report me. I dont think, a sock should be allowed to report registered users. Anyways, I have explained this earlier and will try it again; my topic ban relates to Pakistani politics and Indian/Pakistani conflicts. Now, I dont understand how does editing a page regarding a terrorist organization Lashkar-e-Taiba falls under Pakistani politics and how does a terror attack in India 2015 Gurdaspur attack which (initially) had nothing to do with Pakistan has to do with Indo-Pak conflict? From what I understand is banned from Indo-Pak Conflicts means is that I cannot edit articles like Siachen Conflict, Kargil Conflict, 1965 Indo-Pak War etc where actual war/conflict is taking place.

The edit I made at Gurdaspur Attack was 'As per MHA sources, 2 x GPS, 3 x AK-47, 10 x magazines and 2 x China-made grenades were recovered from the terrorists' i.e. added just the basic info which was non-controversial. I was reported to Admin FPAS talk page by showing only one edit to made it look like as if I am doing something wrong. FPAS being busy responded quickly without actually confirming that I was violating my topic ban as he did not review the entire issue as he was committed elsewhere. Resultantly, I asked him a simple question:

So what you want to say is that in future ANY terrorist attack on Indian soil (which is condemnable), even like that carried out in Manipur by rebels in Mayanmar, will automatically fall within the scope of Indo-Pak conflict, because it ultimately will end up being supposedly supported by some terror group linked to Pakistan? This sir is a huge statement. Since when did Admins at Misplaced Pages have started speaking the language of Indian External Affairs Ministry?

As FPAS is still busy, he hasnt responded to the comment. So, I ask here again, will any future terror attack taking place in India be taken as a conflict between India and Pakistan? Or may be till the time India does not accuse Pakistan for orchestrating the attack, I could edit the page as till then it would not have become a conflict between the two countries, because the time between a terror attack in India and India accusing Pakistan for the same is with hours? Please explain? If it is the former, so what editors at Misplaced Pages want to say is that even before pakistan's hand is established behind an attack, all terror attacks in India will by default be assumed to be supported by Pakistan and thus by this definition, all such pages will fall under the purview of Indo-Pak Conflict, and thus within my topic-ban?

As for LeT, how does a page related to a terror org, like LeT, like the LTTE in Sri Lanka, ISIS in Yemen, Sikh Seperatists and numerous others in India etc are all linked to the politics of the respective countries. I am confused and seek advice. If I am told and clarified by the respected Admins that by the edits being quoted against me, I was infact violating by ban, I'll happily admit to my mistake as I did not consider doing so was wrong, and will refrain from such edits in future. Thanks.

Lastly, or the Indian socks and tag-teamers who wants to show that I cant live with my topic ban, my edit history, post my topic ban begs to disagree:

• Territorial claims in the Arctic
• My Trip Back to the Dark Side (film)
• Kim Yo-jong
• Chappie (film)
• Frequencies (film)
• Sabeen Mahmud
• Benjamin Sisters
• Javed Iqbal Ramday
• Central Superior Services of Pakistan—TripWire  12:21, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: This needs admins attention. This user has been blatantly violated topic ban several times even after several warnings. One can read latest advice by admin FPAS User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise#Topic ban violation. He is busy. --Human3015  12:55, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Thankyou sir, for repeating the 'same' words as by the IP one more time. You think repeating it will make it true? BTW, you claimed that I have "been blatantly violated topic ban several times", so please why dont you tell the admins when was the last time I have edited a topic which you for now presumingly believe falls within my topic ban? As I have requested you earlier, that you need to stop lying and exaggerating the 'facts'—TripWire  13:00, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

You mentioned it itself, sir. You think that India thinks that all terrorist attacks in India are related to Pakistan, and because of that, it is part of an India-Pakistan conflict, and this means your topic ban applies. Besides, topic bans are broadly construed. Violating topic bans may result in an extension of that ban, a block, including an indefinite block... If you think a topic ban is unjustified, don't violate it, or try to circumvent it, but appeal it.--Müdigkeit (talk) 14:00, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

So sir, what you are trying to say is that because any attack in India, will automatically, by default, without any investigation, without any proof, without any recourse to any legal proceedings will have to be understood (internationally and among ALL editors of Misplaced Pages and Admins) to be orchestrated by Pakistan, so it falls under Indo-Pak Conflict? WOW! I will say that same thing what i said to FPAS, ' that's a huge statement sir', not to mention a clear violation of WP:NPOV and numerous other wiki polices. BTW, would the attack carried out by Manipur Rebels in Manipur, India recently by the rebels operation from the Indo-Mayanmar Border, to which India responded by carryingout a hot pursuit operation inside Mayanmar, also included in the definition of topic-ban provided by you? Thanks —TripWire  14:10, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Important Question to Admins (and sock IP)

I am being accused of violating by Topic Ban related to Indo-Pak Conflict pages by editing 2015 Gurdaspur attack page. But please consider:

• 2015 Gurdaspur attack occurred at 5:30am on 27 July 2015.
• The 2015 Gurdaspur attack was created on same day at 08:44 am
• Till then it was an unfortunate attack on Indian soil, no terror group claimed responsibility, no one knew who was behind the attacks.
• Later it was known that one of the attackers seemed like a Sikh, and thus the possibility of Khalistan Movement surfaced.
• I made my first edit at the page at 02:28, 28 July 2015, approximately 24 hrs after the attack.
• Till then Pakistan had not been brought into the mix, so the question, how and when did this page started falling withing the purview of Indo-Pak Conflict, a topic I am banned to edit?
• The first mention of Pakistan at the page was made at 21:44, 28 July 2015. This was usual Indian rehtoric of accusing Pakistan everytime a terror attack happens in India. This time it was a shot in the dark as unlike let's say Mumbai Attacks where India had a confession of Ajmal Kasb, thereby giving credence to the Indian claim, this time the accusation was blank, vague and to date unproven. So the second question: Did this ACCUSATION make 2015 Gurdaspur attack page an Indo-Pak Conflict topic, may be? If so, then I would respectfully ask the Admins the same question I asked from FPAS at his talk page, but I am not going to repeat it here.
• Please, I request, help me understand how (and when) does a terror attack in India becomes a topic of Indo-Pak Conflict? What's the criteria, how should I gauge that a page I am editing is a Conflict page, because the line is quite thin here and personal vendettas quite high. Thanks.—TripWire  14:03, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Read above comment, you disagree on "Pakistan is behind Gurudaspur bomb blasts" thats why it is part of India-Pakistan conflict. And what about your edits on NGO Lashkar-e-Taiba? I demand strict action on this user. --Human3015  14:10, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

You, as been highlighted numerous times, are an exaggerator and a manipulator. You are again lying by saying that I "disagree on Pakistan is behind Gurudaspur bomb blasts", can you prove it sir? Which edit of mine made you think that I am against it? Did I remove ANY info related to this? Did I challenge this accusation by India? The only thing I changed in the line quoted by you is that India 'alleged' that Pakistan is behind the attacks, what's wrong with that? Isnt it an accusation as of now or you as per habitual WP:NPOV pusher wants to state this as a FACT? The other edit I made was to add the fact that Indian authorities mistakenly thought one of the attackers to be a Sikh, is that wrong to? Is it not factual or supported by Indian sources? Or by highlighting that India retracted a mistake well in time and instead accused Pakistan, didnt I actually support the Indian POV as opposed to your accusation that I am against "Pakistan is behind Gurudaspur bomb blasts"? Wake up Sir! You in your frustration against me, have crossed all bounds of morality.—TripWire  14:34, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Lashkar-e-Taibar is clearly related to Pakistan, so it is a forbidden article. A topic ban is a topic ban. Not from an article, but from everything related to that topic, broadly construed.--Müdigkeit (talk) 14:26, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Related to Pakistan, not Pakistani Politics. Broadly construed is OK, but making it so broad that anything which has a word Pakistan in it is banned for me is not. If that had been the case, FPAS could have very easily said in by Ban that I am not allowed to edit ANY topic related to Pakistan (alone). Infact, that's the clarification I am trying to seek here from respected Admins. I can be wrong, and I dont mind if I am corrected by Admins.—TripWire  14:37, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Immediately after his ban, TripWire filed a request to lift his ban, which was not even replied and ultimately rejected. You were banned for India-Pakistan conflicts which includes Lashkar e taiba as this terror group launches attack against India every week.112.79.39.111 (talk) 14:40, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Funny. Ref: as this terror group launches attack against India every week: and this far-fetched accusation makes it a topic of Pakistani Politics/Conflict? Sir, excellent attempt at pushing a WP:NPOV. BTW, did you muster the courage to login? Admins sirs, is it fair to be reported by a sock/SPA? —TripWire  14:51, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

While I will defer to admins more familiar with the India-Pakistan area and topic bans more generally, this does appear to me to be a violation of the topic ban. Edits such as this and this are clearly on topics related to India-Pakistan conflicts. It doesn't really matter, in my opinion, whether it had yet been confirmed that the attacks were carried out by people from Pakistan; I think the fact that a link was being considered brings the topic within the India-Pakistan conflicts topic. Sam Walton (talk) 14:47, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

@TripWire: If an article mentions both Pakistan and India and covers violence or religious strife or political or military wranglings you are topic-banned from that article. Lashkar-e-Taiba emphatically falls under your topic ban. --NeilN 14:49, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Hmmm...So sir I have been wrong all along?? Darn! May be I was taking the ban wording too literally. —TripWire  14:55, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

@TripWire: It's not a good idea to test the boundaries of a topic ban. If there's any doubt, ask an admin familiar with the matter before you start editing. But these queries should be reserved for non-obvious cases. Lashkar-e-Taiba is an obvious case. --NeilN 15:05, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I do find it hard to believe that you would think your topic ban didn't cover articles like Lashkar-e-Taiba or in conflict-related articles where a link between India and Pakistan is being discussed. Sam Walton (talk) 15:13, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Sir, all along my argument regarding LeT had been that it did not fell under "Pakistani Politics", now it seems that it is connected to Indo-pak Conflict?! Ouch!—TripWire  15:15, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Problems with the ban appeal

I noticed someone mentioned a denied ban appeal.(https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive177#Result_of_the_appeal_by_TripWire Ban Appeal) And then I noticed the following: Future Perfect at Sunrise didn't answer or explain his actions in the appeal despite notice, and the appeal was automatically archived after 7 days. This is disappointing. Future Perfect at Sunrise was active during that time. This behaviour seems to be contrary to WP:ADMINACCT.--Müdigkeit (talk) 15:17, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Sir, thanks for saying what I couldnt. I am being continoulsy mocked that I didnt even worth a reply on my ban appeal and thus (ironically) my ban was justified. Sir Neil has suggested that I should have asked an Admin if I was in doubt 9which I was). Seriously, I may be wrong in saying so, but I will not fall down to a level where I approach the same admin who did not even bother to reply to my appeal. On a seond thought, I should have approached FPAS, but whereas I do enjoy my edits at Misplaced Pages, but it is not a matter of life or death to me. I exercised my right of appeal, it went unanswered, which in itself was insulting, if taken in that sense, I am sorry, if resultantly I didnt feel comfortable to interact with the same Admin. I could have also approached another admin, but for the same reason, I found it rather belittling that I am knocking at a door, only to find out that it remains unopened. The only reason behind my latest interaction with FPAS at his talk page was because I was forced by Human3015 to respond there when he reported me to FPAS. BTW, FPAS didnt even then respond to me, but made a hasty reply to Human3015 alone, which again was taken with a heavy heart by me. But still, I understand that being an Admin is a thankless job, and I hold no grudges. We are all here to improve this website, will try to do that, till I am permitted to do that. Thanks —TripWire  15:31, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

• @TripWire: If someone has not replied to your ban appeal then it doesn't mean that you are allowed to violate your topic ban. That can be different discussion and should not be discussed on this thread, @Müdigkeit: this is the issue of WP:AE. Here we are discussing current topic ban violations by TripWire. --Human3015  16:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Actually I think this is related to that. TripWire had the right to appeal, and it is obvious that right was not fully exercised or granted as no one even replied on the thread. I think we all ought to sit back and re-visit the original ban. It would be good if the previous appeal could be de-archived and the involved admin/editors could add in their thoughts. After all, it's meant to be preventable, not punitive. And to be honest, TripWire isn't really doing anything different than what the POV pushers on the other side of the fence are doing. Perhaps sanctions should be applied equally. Mar4d (talk) 23:25, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

@Mar4d: It is not just you who thinks in that way, even I wanted that his appeal should have been replied, I said this in my long advice on TripWire's talk page see last line. But apparently his appeal could have been refused. His behaviour is such that even you yourself describing his behaviour as "POV Pusher". He has done many mistakes even after his topic ban. Even if we de-archive or re-open his case still again no one will comment on his appeal. Or even if someone comment on it still it will end up in deny. It will hurt TripWire again. And I agree on you that "POV pushers" of "both" sides should be banned. These POV pushers are ruining Misplaced Pages. When we are busy in any project these POV pushers and Socks unnecessarily attracts our attention and we end up in wasting our time and we also lose our interest in that topic. --Human3015  02:16, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Human3015, please stop patronizing me. What you call advice was more of a mockery whereby you showed your true colors. You were the first one to 'enjoy' that my ban appeal went out without a discussion. Stop lying for once!—TripWire  06:19, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Two cents (uninvolved editor)

This is my personal take on the issue, perhaps a bit biased. I just wanted to see if the latest had been added to the article and went there today. I have not edited the article in any way which may show bias towards anyone.

As far as Human is concerned I would like to say that perhaps he could have waited for a couple of more reverts before reporting, but having said that he is quite within his rights to report and if he follows the law to the letter no one should blame him, even though I personally would have given tripwire some "rope".

On the other hand the total meltdownesque tirade from Tripwire seems to be such a huge huge huge amount of overkill I cannot even describe it in words. Had he just come here and apologized for editing during the TB, i am sure this would have ended in a nice "Ok, no harm no foul dude" and a cool wiki thread. but alas, such escalation! I'd like to recommend that an admin takes just one minute from his time and tell Tripwire that his TB includes everything that has even a tiny bit of connection with Pak-India Politics. That is what the term "broadly" means. And that another incident of violation will "upgrade" the TB to 9 months. I think that should end this for the time being.

Human3015 and Sock IPs

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

While we are at it, I'd like to make few observations:

• Human3015 has a weiered habit of showing emphathy with established socks and vice versa.
• I wonder why is it that whenever I have been in discussion with Human3015, a sock or a SPA appears from nowhere and attempts at disrupting my contributions. The fact that I have been reported by a (sock) IP for topic-ban vio here is a point to note. Especially, when Human3015 falsely and in pure bad-faith reported me for 3RR vio, and when it was seen in the discussion there that it is not going to yield results as per Human's wishes, this socks appears and reports me here.
• Point to note is that the last edit I made at LeT page was at 00:23, 3 August 2015 and the last edit made by me on 2015 Gurdaspur attack was at 20:30, 2 August 2015. Thereafter when I was told that I might be violating my topic-ban, I stopped from editing both the topics. But, still I get reported by the sock IP today on 5 August (after it was seen that the false report against me for 3RR was likely to backfire, with a likelihood of some action against Human as he used a 2-days-old edit by me to force compile 3RR volition)??

• This is not the first time this has happened. I was reported by Human for SPI upon 'suggestion' by an established sockmaster. Human, instead of ignoring the sock, gladly acknowledged the Sock's suggestion and obliged by reporting me for SPI. The result of SPI was also not as per Human's wishes, but no action was taken against Human for accusing me of socking that too upon suggestion by a sock - fathom the irony!

• Just yesterday, when Human and I were having a discussion at Talk:Desi daru, and when Human was unable to prove his point, another sock/SPA appeared from nowhere and vandalized my talk page twice while I was amidst the discussion with Human.

• I wonder why is it that established socks/sockmaster always approach Human for help? Is it just a coincidence that socks are in communication with Human, that socks recommend to him to report me for false SPI, that I get reported by a sock IP again here on the eve of sanctions on Human for falsely reporting me for 3RR? Food for thought.—TripWire  18:26, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
  • If you want to allege that another user is a sockpuppet then file an SPI. Sam Walton (talk) 18:58, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: I don't know from where these IPs appear whenever I have discussion with TripWire. My talk page has always been attacked by both Pro-Indian and Pro-Pakistani IPs. And both of these group of IPs are socks of different sockmasters. As usual TripWire told you half story, now I will tell you another story, , , Here one IP is abusing me in local language saying "What conspiracy you did to get me topic banned for 6 months?, did you e-mail admin FPAS to provoke him to get me topic banned?. Don't touch Pakistan related articles for 6 months till my ban is over". I will not translate abusive words. I have never even thought that it is sock of TripWire, I have not even complained or discussed it with anyone. I just left this matter. --Human3015  21:24, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Bad faith editing at TV articles by User:TheRedPenOfDoom

I have noticed that on some "list of programs broadcast by network" articles that User:TheRedPenOfDoom has added tags to upcoming programming sections that claim there is undue weight and advertising.

For one, how on earth can listing upcoming programming lend undue weight to articles, if there are currently and formerly broadcast sections? Secondly, @Manoflogan: stated the content in question is not promotional material as long as it is cited with proper sources, in this case, most of it is. Yet TheRedPenOfDoom went on his delusional crusade anyway. (please read User talk:TheRedPenOfDoom#Regarding Upcoming Series on Zee Zindagi for more info)

This user is obviously crazy to believe that upcoming programming lends undue weight and is advertising, source or no source. He is continuing to uphold this even after I had reverted his tagging. I personally feel that an indefinite block or ban is needed at this point. ElectricBurst_(Zaps) 21:43, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

TRPoD started discussions on the addition of the Undue tag on the article talk pages where you were edit-warring. It would preferable to try to come to a resolution by discussing this difference of opinion with other editors before turning to ANI. Liz 21:49, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

@Liz: Personally, I feel TRPoD's claims of undue weight and advertising are invalid, yet he's running with them anyway. ElectricBurst_(Zaps) 21:59, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

You might be correct about the content but it's best to get a consensus on the article talk pages. It looks like a discussion is occurring at Talk:List of programs broadcast by Zee Zindagi although it is heated. Liz 22:05, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Extracted the following from the discussion:

Misplaced Pages admin Cyphoidbomb has given his opinion that he does not mind the presence of Future Programming as long as there is a valid source of reference. User_talk:TheRedPenOfDoom#Regarding_Upcoming_Series_on_Zee_Zindagi. I am therefore going to remove the two warnings that you inserted. He/She also mentioned that it is a standard template for television network programming. If you have any issues, you can take it up with him/her. But from now on, please refrain from adding warnings just because you object to the sections or their referenced content. In addition, please don't go about putting the warnings back again.

Like Manoflogan, I removed the templates from the articles. However, TRPoD re-added them almost immediately. Like I keep saying, the edits do not appear to have been made in good faith. ElectricBurst_(Zaps) 22:14, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

"Delusional crusade"? "This user is obviously crazy"? Electricburst1996, you need to step back from the edge of the cliff pronto.--Jezebel's Ponyo 22:49, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Well, maybe I am exaggerating a bit too much... ElectricBurst_(Zaps) 22:51, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This really doesn't seem like something that warrants actions anywhere near an indefinite block or ban. Article talk pages are there for a reason. Sam Walton (talk) 21:50, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

If the Guinness Book of Records has an entry for "dragged most times to ANI for manifestly invalid reasons" then TRPoD would own it. Reyk _YO! 21:55, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

As noted above, an AN/I complaint that says "this user is obviously crazy" had really better be confident that the user complained of is obviously crazy. Good faith does not invariably mean "agreeing with me". I'm disturbed about the way targeted editors are dragged into this sort of thing over and over again, and would not be surprised to find that this is yet more spillover from TRPoD’s previous persecutors. The community should give TRPoD a firm assurance that, barring actions that actually are "obviously crazy", these repeated complaints will be ignored or boomeranged; that sort of assurance would go a long way toward defusing the tension. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:58, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Whilst not being a proof of sanity, or otherwise, can anyone list off some article where RedPen's efforts have been held up as an example of good editing? This is an editor with a serious WP:BATTLEGROUND problem, across every article I've ever seen them at. They have formal restrictions against them because of this on the Gamergate issue. In particular, they have a messianic belief in their personal absolute correctness, no matter what.

Although I'm seeing some hyperbole from Electricburst1996 here, it's not hard to see how RedPen has inspired it. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:45, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

If I may chime in my two cents here, I think Andy Dingley has hit the nail on the head here. I agree that Electricburst1996 is over reacting, and using some rather hyperbolic language, but there is also something to be said for the fact that users across the board are constantly taking issue with the same user, over and over again. Even if one assumes some of these complaints are simply sock puppets, surely they aren't ALL. Seems to me that at a certain point TRPoD should take some responsibility for this as well.--Zackmann08 (/_{What I been doing}) 03:48, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

TRPoD does a valuable job in pruning back the dross that tends to accumulate in articles. In a project where some people think that every passing mention of a thing, in every single medium, however trivial, deserves its own section in the top-level article, we do actually need cruft-pruners. Guy (Help!) 21:57, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

And that's a free ride to behave however he wants? Andy Dingley (talk) 22:04, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Evidence supplied by long-term abusers who get special treatment because of their perceived good content work would suggest yes it is. I make no comment on if that is a good or a bad thing. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

There appears to be a content dispute at the heart of this. One party is engaging on the talk page, which is what you're supposed to do, while the other is running to this page which is intended for reporting serious conduct issues, crying "bad faith" rather than engage in discussion to resolve the content dispute. The latter behaviour tends to be frowned upon. --TS 00:23, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

@Tony Sidaway: I left a message on TRPoD's talk page in an attempt to resolve the issue. I'll report back tomorrow to see how it goes. ElectricBurst_(Zaps) 02:46, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Given that this started with edit warring to remove tags that state " Discuss and resolve this issue before removing this message." and then violations of WP:TPG by blanking the discussion from the talk page and then blatantly violate WP:NPA while simultaneously accusing me of acting in bad faith, I think it is pretty clear where the bad faith editing is emanating from in this instance. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:10, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: I frequently run into TRPOD at problematic articles related to Indian/Pakistani entertainment. Typically I agree with his staunch anti-fluff attitude, however in this case I disagree with him. The inclusion of upcoming programs in a List of programs broadcast by... article is standard operating procedure if the content can be sourced. Rather than templating individual articles with badges of shame, I think the better approach might be for him to approach WikiProject Television and start the discussion there. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:51, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

IP edits to New Jersey Devils related articles

Look at this history. We have several IPs making changes and several established editors reverting them.

The IP edits look cack-handed at best, but not really vandalism. I see no attempt to discuss it... although I get the impression that the established users have been here before and think this may be socks of people who have been causing problems before.

Anyone familiar with the history and want to intervene?

Yaris678 (talk) 13:28, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

For relevant history, see this previous incident report which led to an editor block, Talk:1994–95 New Jersey Devils season and the discussion threads to which the last two sections link, and Talk:1993–94 New York Rangers season to see many attempts at discussion and the stream of edit requests that have been made which lack specific details (the talk page history contains more edit requests that have been deleted). isaacl (talk) 17:38, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring by 173.21.188.179

User:173.21.188.179 is continuing to edit war with User:5 albert square after being warned not to. 99.53.112.186 (talk) 18:11, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

There's no edit warring from me as I haven't edited the page since 2nd August. I reverted them previously because I didn't see how edits like these could be construed as anything other than vandalism. The IP hasn't given a reason for reducing the image so when I came across the edit, after a report to AIV, it looked like vandalism to the untrained eye. They've reverted it again still not giving a reason as to why the size of the image should be changed so they're continuing their disruptive editing.--5 albert square (talk) 19:29, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree that you were not edit warring User:5 albert square. You did the right thing in my opinion. I was only referring to the user in the title. 2602:306:3357:BA0:6914:843B:E888:7228 (talk) 21:27, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

For those who are wondering, it appears that the article the OP is referring to is Fornjot_(moon), but at any rate...Albert, the OP stated that only the IP is edit-warring, not you (but I do see how that can be misinterpreted). Anyway, I was about to note that the IP hasn't edited since receiving the most recent warning, but his/her talk page indicates that this is an ongoing issue (if all that represents the same person, that is). Maybe a longer block is warranted? Erpert 00:57, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree with having this user blocked for a longer period of time. Is everybody on board with that decision. 2602:306:3357:BA0:14B8:B3F4:8A0:185E (talk) 03:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Cruks

It doesn't appears to me that the above editor is here to build an encyclopedia. I never noticed their disruptive behavior until I found this ridiculous warning on Jamie Tubers's talk page. I responded to them here explaining to them why the user's edit did not constitute vandalism and User:Cruks quickly left this irrelevant note on my talk page that my revert on the article, List of Nigerian billionaires by net worth is not useful even when I never reverted anything that changed the list. I responded here telling them why the List of Nigerian billionaires by net worth should not only be on the list of Nigerian billionaire compiled in 2015 but also other years. They responded here that I shouldn't treated them unfairly simply because they want to justified their action. I edited the article, List of Nigerian billionaires by net worth here to enhance the inclusion of "list of Nigerian billionaires" compiled in other years to reflect the title but they abysmally reverted my edit. When I checked through their talk page history, I discovered that the editor is problematic. Last week, they created Declan Costello (economist), a blatant copyvio that was speedy deleted per G12 by User:Jimfbleak. A day before the page was deleted, I found this warning] by JMHamo on their talk page regarding an edit warring on Morgan Schneiderlin. I also saw this warning on their talk for not been using the edit summary. There are also several warning on their talk page regarding the addition of poor sources to article such as this one. When I considered all this misconduct, I really don't think that this editor can contribute usefully to Misplaced Pages. Wikic¤l¤gy 19:36, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Disney

Can someone who knows more about Disney than I do review the latest edits by User:46.208.198.222. There seems to have been a bunch of previous Disney edits by this IP reverted, but it is beyond my Disney-fu to tell whether these are good, bad or indifferent edits. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:33, 6 August 2015 (UTC).

I had a look and did what I could. -- Diannaa (talk) 22:32, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

WP:Topic ban for Aubmn

Whether here or WP:AN is the best place for this, I propose a topic ban for Aubmn (talk · contribs) with regard to the Marie Antoinette article. Aubmn's problematic editing at that article has been documented by various editors. For a WP:Diff-link to the evidence, see here and keep scrolling downward. Each section following that is one about Aubmn's problematic editing. And that problematic editing includes WP:Copyright violations, falsifying text, hard-to-read text, WP:Edit warring, WP:Socking and WP:IDIDN'THEARTHAT behavior. NebY and I, especially NebY, first tried to deal with all of it. Then more editors took notice and tried to deal with all of it. Eventually, Saddhiyama brought the matter to WP:ANI earlier this year; see Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive880#User:Aubmn and sockpuppetry. Since then, Blue Indigo (talk · contribs) has been trying to help out with the article and deal with Aubmn's problematic editing; he brought the matter to my talk page, as seen jhere and here, and I eventually suggested that he bring the case here to WP:ANI himself. Seeing that NeilN has WP:Full protected the article (see this link), and that Blue Indigo is understandably stressed because of Aubmn's problematic editing and that NeilN has been clear that he will block either of them for WP:Edit warring, I decided to follow through with reporting this case here. From Aubmn (talk) 11:45, 7 August 2015 (UTC)what I have seen of Aubmn's behavior, I don't think he should be editing Misplaced Pages at all. Flyer22 (talk) 01:23, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately Flyer22 has a very negative attitude from the first with me, more than a year ago I began editing Marie Antoinette article who was on the watchlist of Flyer and who was left incomplete since 2012 and relying on one source Fraser, I was still an editor who didn't know about copyright s rules or a lot of rules in Wikepedia, I removed myself all the copyright violations and began editing by counting first on Fraser and completing the article specially the revolutionary period who was largely left unfinished since 2012. After that many editors came to work on the article , unfortunately the negative behaviour of Neb and Flyer22 let many of these editors to feel empowered and they wanted me completely out of the article after first proposing to work with me; krobison 13 was the first one, he himself acknowledge that he knew little about the subject , yet flyer and Neb wanted to give him complete control over the article, when we were left alone without the negativity and harrasment of Flyer and Neb, I was able to work with krobison who made hundred of edits in the article without interference from me, we have your differences who where solved when Krobison wanted to remove the 14 of July the most important event of that period. Blue Indigo refused to work with me from the beginning although I proposed to him twice on his talk page , he reverted 90% of my edits, I accepted 90 % of his edits (see per talk page). Aubmn (talk) 02:03, 7 August 2015 (UTC) I will talk of the last edit about the necklace scandal, Blue Indigo removed my contribution completely while I kept his contribution who was not based on the role of MA and when I tried to add my contribution without removing his, he removed it again as he felt empowered by Flyer22 (see SoS, SoS 2) on Flyer talk page, in addition to all that Blue Indigo compared me to a panzer division on Flyer22 talk page with it reference to Nazism without any reaction from Flyer22, know Flyer is saying Blue Indigo is stressed. Aubmn (talk) 02:14, 7 August 2015‎ (UTC) I welcomed the involvement of NeilN who is an objective person trying to find solutions in the Talk Page; not behaving and taking a negative attitude like Flyer22. Finally I want to say I committed mistakes sometimes out of ignorance of the rules sometimes because of anger but the fact remained , I completed a major article on a major personality which was left incomplete since 2012 and second I listened to many editors including Neb who told me the main weakness of this article is on it reliance on one source Fraser, I provided a solution to this problem by adding dozen of references to this article using the most important historians of MA like Castelot, Lever, Zweig and many others. I m not stressed like Blue Indigo because edit warring was mainly from his side and I believe in talking, cooperation and compromise ,,as an example I opened a new section in Napoleon article about education and I reached compromises with the editors there who were behaving in a positive way. Finally yes I committed some mistakes,I panicked sometimes not knowing about the rules but my intentions were good and positive, in the end I provided information's for a major article unfinished since 2012 and I removed its main weakness by giving it many sources instead of one. Know I trust NeilN and I m ready to follow any arbitration decided by him or her on MA talk page.Thank you.Aubmn (talk) 03:18, 7 August 2015 (UTC) Aubmn (talk) 02:45, 7 August 2015‎ (UTC)

Note: Anyone wanting to know how I initially addressed Aubmn can see User talk:Flyer22/Archive 17#Aubmn: Marie Antoinette article. Judge whether or not that matches up with his assertion that "Flyer22 has a very negative attitude from the first with me." As seen there, I asked him clearly about copyright violations, and he was dishonest. Unless he didn't know what copyright violations are, he should have known what I meant. The WP:Copyright violations policy is just adhering to what the law does. Yes, there are very likely WP:Copyright violations still in that article because of Aubmn. And any negative attitude I've had toward Aubmn has concerned his WP:Disruptive editing. Feel free to look for any way that I have been inappropriate with Aubmn. I will ignore his mischaracterization of me and others in this thread from here on out. I'll leave the rest of this to the community to handle. Flyer22 (talk) 02:49, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support. The talk page shows a long history of problematic edits including copyright violations, and strong evidence of WP:OWN. The claim that text is "information" and therefore sacrosanct, is a hallmark of POV-pushers. I think a topic ban is in order. Guy (Help!) 08:54, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

First about copyright violations,when I knew the law, I removed not only those I put which Flyer and Neby acknowledged they couldn't find them, I also removed hundred of copyright violations and paraphrasing from the test which were present before my contributions.

Second what is called ownership is first simply the absence of many editors for years to deal with this article, krobison 13 made hundred of edits without any interruption from me, Blue Indigo made hundred of edits who were left unchanged, the problem is like the diamont necklace show he removed my contribution, I kept his.

Third, I added many references to an article who was counting on one reference.

Fourth, frankly I 'm tired, I have a very beautiful life outside Misplaced Pages, if 'm banned I'll stop my work as an editor and concentrate more on my real life which is the cornstone of my existense, because I never spent more than one hour or two on Wikepedia everyday; perhaps that is the best for me, anyway whatever happen I want to thank NeilN and all who have shown objectivity.Thank you all Aubmn (talk) 10:39, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Seriously? You have such a single purpose here than if you can't edit that singular article, you'd quit? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:57, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support. From the MA Talk page, this appears to be an ongoing problem that should have ended months ago. Lucky he isn't getting proposed for another block, which apparently would have been well warranted. Softlavender (talk) 11:02, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

My friend Ricky I 'm tired, what do you expect, I finished a major article who was incomplete and depending on one source; I was lucky that I was able to complete it and also to provide many sources so the article don't 'depend on one source. I 'm not very interested in adding a few lines to other articles who are almost complete and to face the same scenarios. Unfortunately this is the kind of policy that is driving editors away from Misplaced Pages which is also losing a lot of readers. I' m going to Monte Carlo with my beautiful girlfriend and I don't need all of this. Thank you for all,a last notice NeilN said on MA talk page flyer22 put words from her mouth, I think that resume the person.Aubmn (talk) 11:45, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban as proposed, per WP:CIR and WP:DISRUPTSIGNS.- MrX 16:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

OK making the decision easier and making you not loose more time, first I want to thank all people of good faith who collaborated with me, second unfortunately Misplaced Pages is losing it appeal and all studies are showing that the reading of its articles is going down in a very dramatic way ; I 'm logging myself out of Misplaced Pages as an editor, I m not like Blue indigo afraid of being quicked out., I have a life better outside Gentlemen and Ladies, anyway wish you luck. Aubmn (talk) 17:24, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support up to 6 month topic ban (uninvolved non admin) There is some problematic behaviour. Suggest 6 months is long enough for this relatively inexperienced editor to try and learn more about WP and to stay out of trouble. I would also suggest that they learn not to focus on one specific article. AlbinoFerret 19:36, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry and COI Edits

There has been a lot of sockpuppetry and Conflict of Interest violations going on at the page La Salle College High School. Most of these edits seem to be the result of a "public relations" campaign by the school to clean up their image in the wake of a semi-recent scandal of a Priest at this Catholic School saying Mass by a swimming pool. Many Catholic newspapers and blogs covered the incident, so it is certainly notable and verifiable. The school is simply trying to clean up its image, a clear violation of Misplaced Pages Conflict of Interest policies. This is not the first time the school has withstood scrutiny for its editing and advertisement of its Misplaced Pages Page. As this talk page notes, all content put on the page in question is scrutinized by La Salle's director of communications, Mr. Christopher Caribello.

Additionally, there are two other subsets of problems that are notable, those being that
1.) The school is using sockpuppet accounts run by school, as well as directors of communication Christopher Caribello and Braden Bonner, and that
2.) These sockpuppet accounts are repeatedly violating the 3 Revert Rule.

Please investigate this and take any action that is appropriate, including possible protection, dispute mediation, and a sockpuppetry investigation, which has already been opened at the appropriate page. I also would like to propose a WP:Topic Ban against any sockpuppets from the school editing the school's page in light of the recent troubling public-relations and advertising that has been going on.

I believe these accounts are related:

Braden.bonner (Director of Communications Braden Bonner)
8605Cheltenham (Director of Communications Christopher Caribello) (8605 Cheltenham is the school's address)
206.169.237.5 (IP editor related to the school, possibly either Bonner or Caribello)
167.220.104.218 (Another IP editor related to the school, possibly either Bonner or Caribello)
2601:44:8501:b3e0:30f5:792c:7be7:df64 (Another IP editor related to the school)
50.199.67.44 (Another IP editor possibly related to the school)

70.192.131.83 (talk) 03:38, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

The section on the "pool mass" had one ref which didn't mention the subject, and the remaining refs were all blogs or other unreliable sources, so it has been deleted again. - David Biddulph (talk) 03:58, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

... and I see that the sockpuppetry aspects have been raised at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Braden.bonner. - David Biddulph (talk) 04:16, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• David Biddulph, I encourage you to leave a note on that talk page in case this isn't over. Drmies (talk) 16:03, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• • The reason for the removal of the content is simple. No official Catholic newspaper ever covered this story as claimed. The only coverage it received was in several (not many) ideologically biased blogs and privately produced news programs not associated with any diocese or religious institute and without any official church standing. Additionally, no one making this claim has demonstrated the credentials or authority to make canonical judgments. The post is based on a layman's interpretation of a canon, which has the same validity as a layman's interpretation of a civil statute.Thank you. Braden.bonner (talk) 21:54, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Disruption and harassment by 8.39.228.13

8.39.228.13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

This IP made their first edit to Shooting of Samuel DuBose on 30 July. They had 25 total edits prior to that, going back to September of last year (assuming they are all the same person). Everything was cool for awhile after they joined the DuBose article. Then, around 3 August, their editing became very disruptive, with a lot of aggressive reverting and without waiting to build consensus for disputed changes. In article talk, I asked them to "Slow ... down. Please." When they continued, I issued a template warning for DE on 3 August, and another 12 hours later, referring to their then-current style as "steamrolling the article". I am not providing diffs for the events up to this point because they are not relevant to this report. Even if my handling of the situation was incorrect, and I don't feel it was, that would not justify or even mitigate what has followed.

The IP's editing style then became less aggressive, and I have had no complaints about it since then. However, the IP started an article talk thread about biased editing by other editors, specifically me, and was advised by another editor to observe WP:AGF. Their tone in discussion has often been confrontational, with comments like, You've been proven wrong. Care to edit the article to reflect the truth, or should I? I won't say the IP is WP:NOTHERE, but they are not here to collaborate peacefully and cooperatively.

But the main reason I'm making this report is that the IP has continued their article talk criticisms of me, which are both unfounded and inappropriate, amounting to harassment. They have accused me in article talk of "dominating" discussion and POV-pushing, of "whitewashing". They started a second thread in article talk specifically about me, presenting statistics that apparently show that I have the highest edit count for that article and its talk page, as if that's something to be ashamed of (I'll take their word for it, as I didn't even bother to look at the statistics due to the patently ridiculous nature of the assertion). The thread was promptly closed as inappropriate use of article talk. As far as I know there is no limit on discussion on an article talk page, nor does the community recognize a concept of over-participation. I certainly do not exhibit any WP:OWN behavior in that article or any other, and I have never had any complaints about POV-pushing. The IP has repeatedly been advised by me and others to take any misconduct complaints about me to this page or user talk, but they have not done so. As far as I know, they are completely alone in their opinions about my participation, and that includes multiple experienced editors actively involved with the article, including MrX, Gaijin42, and Cwobeel. In any case, I'm not here to defend myself, this report is not about me, and any user is free to open a separate thread about my behavior.

Yesterday I posted on the IP's user talk page about the harassment, and also about WP:NOTFORUM after they took an RfC into off-topic discussion about bias in Misplaced Pages editing. I suggested that they consult an uninvolved third party about the whole issue. The response was more angry accusations and this threat: If you do not cease your whitewashing, I plan on compiling a list of specific instances of whitewashing in that article, publishing it in a separate Talk section in that article, and inviting others whose edits you have repeatedly reverted in other similar articles that you have disproportionately dominated (for example, in Shooting of Michael Brown), to weigh in with their feedback.

The IP's behavior is completely inappropriate, they have been an overall disruptive presence at an article that enjoyed relative peace before they arrived, warnings have not had any effect, and I don't see this situation getting any better by itself. So I am requesting a short block.

1 - Article talk: Starting a talk thread: "Biased application of 'alleged'" naming me as the main culprit

2 - Article talk: "You've been proven wrong. Care to edit the article to reflect the truth, or should I?"

3 - Article talk: Starting a talk thread: "Disproportionate number of edits made by Mandruss"

4 - Addition to the above thread: "I should note that your editing of this Talk page is even more disproportionate."

5 - Article talk: Direct accusation of biased editing against me, in the RfC

User talk:8.39.228.13 ―Mandruss ☎ 04:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

If not a block, the IP should at least receive a final warning to stop personalizing content disputes, and to use to proper channels for addressing alleged conduct issues. Secondary concerns are Original research and WP:NOTAFORUM, which the IP has been previously warned about as well. - MrX 15:23, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Mandruss is one of these editors that always collaborate and engage in useful discussions, we should have more like them. This IP editor, on the other hand, arrived to that article with an aggressive and un-compromising lack of good faith. The IP editor needs a super strong warning, with the hope they reconsider their approach. - Cwobeel (talk) 14:27, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

MrX, Cwobeel - can any of you provide diffs to substantiate the claim that my editing was "very disruptive, with a lot of aggressive reverting and without waiting to build consensus for disputed changes." - 8.39.228.13 (talk) 15:51, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Why are you asking me? I never made any such claims.- MrX 16:10, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I see that, thank you. In response to your question, I'm asking you because those claims are central to this dispute, and you have commented on this dispute in support of Mandruss's position that I be disciplined. - 8.39.228.13 (talk) 16:19, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

WTF? Who is saying that your editing was disruptive. What I said that your interventions at that article talk page show a WP:BATTLE behavior and total lack of good faith. Maybe time for you to listen and heed the advice. - Cwobeel (talk) 19:46, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

And I have already clearly explained why there are no diffs for that. I'll try one more time, since the IP apparently has a hearing problem. First, that DE is not a basis for this complaint; I am not seeking a sanction as a result of that. The DE ceased roughly four days ago and sanctions are preventative not punitive. There is no question that I issued the template warnings, I don't need diffs to show that I did, and the only reason I mentioned that was that I believe it explains why the IP has been preoccupied with me since then. Second, even if my template warnings were inappropriate under those circumstances, that does not justify or excuse the IP's subsequent behavior. There is no justifiable repeated misuse of article talk, no justifiable repeated WP:FORUM discussion, no justifiable repeated confrontational talk behavior, and no justifiable harassment. That's my last attempt, if the IP still doesn't hear me, they never will. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:21, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Mandruss, you have claimed that my "editing became very disruptive, with a lot of aggressive reverting and without waiting to build consensus for disputed changes." This is a falsehood. Not only did I not commit "a lot" of aggressive reverting, I didn't commit any. In fact, I intentionally refused to become involved in an edit war, instead taking my concerns to the Talk page. When I added a relevant, sufficiently-sourced phrase to the article about one of its subjects committing a violent crime, you whitewashed it. Now you want discussion of that sentence whitewashed from Talk, and you want me whitewashed from Misplaced Pages. Please either substantiate your claim that I have made disruptive editing or aggressive reverting, or edit your comment above to remove it. - 8.39.228.13 (talk) 16:42, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I am accountable to the community, not to you. You seem to harbor the mistaken impression that no sanction can occur unless I satisfy your endless demands for more information, responding to your every obtuse point or argument, while you repeatedly fail to hear what I have said. That's not how it works here. As I said earlier, below (more hearing problem), others are free to ping me if more information is required from me. Your arguments are unimpressive and this is my last comment to you in this report. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:51, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

You are bullying me, in direct violation of WP:BULLY. Specifically, you have made a no-edit order contrary to policy , and you have attempted to unjustifiably use the Misplaced Pages system (in this case, an ANI) to block me from editing. Also, you have claimed that my "editing became very disruptive, with a lot of aggressive reverting and without waiting to build consensus for disputed changes", a complete falsehood. By lying, you have violated Misplaced Pages guidelines on civility (WP:IDENTIFYUNCIVIL). - 8.39.228.13 (talk) 20:01, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

For an editor with about 50 edits, you surely can wikilawyer. Go do something useful, for Pete's sake, and stop wasting everybody's time. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:58, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I have every right to defend myself, no matter how many edits I have. Had such a baseless claim not been made against me, in an attempt to have me blocked, perhaps I wouldn't feel the need to so diligently make sure that my position was fairly represented. - 8.39.228.13 (talk) 00:19, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Response

Zero evidence of disruptive editing to the article has been provided. Mandruss claims that "they are not relevant to this report", but nothing could be more relevant. Accusations of disruptive article editing should be accompanied by links to article edit diffs. If no such links can be provided, then such an accusation should be retracted.

Mandruss has pursued an agenda of whitewashing the Shooting of Samuel DuBose article, repeatedly reverting well sourced claims that present one of the article subjects in a negative light. He has even stated about one of the article subjects: ""Frankly his history looks terrible, especially juxtaposed with Tensing's (aside from being indicted for murder, that is), and the more we say the worse that gets."" . Our job is to honestly report on the events that the article covers, and not conceal relevant information because "the more we say the worse it gets". I am not completely alone in my concern. For example, Gaijin42, who is mentioned above, said: ""Presenting information that looks poorly on DuBose is not an attempt to shift blame, it is honest reporting, and hiding it makes it look like we are trying to whitewash him/bandwagon on Tensing"".

Mandruss was the first to personally call me out by username/ip in the article's Talk section, under the "8.39.228.13 edit" section . When I mentioned in a talk section that a disproportionate number of the edits were made by him, I also used it as an opportunity to repeatedly praise Mandruss, and encourage others to increase their editing activity to balance out the voice in the article.. Mandruss characterized this as a "spurious attack thread" on my Talk page.. When I asked him to substantiate this claim by pointing out what in that section was spurious, he didn't respond.

Mandruss has participated in WikiBullying by accusing me of steamrolling the article with zero substantiation, and threatening me with having my edit privileges revoked, while himself making a disproportionate number of edits on both the article and the talk page (29% of the edits to the article, and 46% of the edits to the Talk page). I have refused to participate in aggressively editing or reverting the article, instead choosing to state my concerns on the Talk page.

I would be happy to compile a list of diffs documenting the whitewashing of this article.

Finally, I again request that diffs evidencing disruptive editing to the article by me be provided to substantiate the claim that I have participated in such activity. Thank you for considering my position. - 8.39.228.13 (talk) 19:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

As I said above, any issues about my behavior should be discussed separately and independently from those about yours. Even if you had any valid reason for complaint, one does not justify or excuse the other, and, as my parents taught me, two wrongs don't make a right. You steadfastly refused to come here with your complaints until you needed them to defend yourself here, to divert discussion from the issue at hand in this thread. I refuse to defend myself in this report, beyond what I have already said. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

As your behavior is relevant to this conflict, and specifically to the accusations you have made against me, I feel it is fair and appropriate to mention that behavior here. Again, I encourage you to provide diffs to substantiate your claim that I have made disruptive edits to the article. - 8.39.228.13 (talk) 19:45, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Again, I decline, for the reasons stated. As I'm well aware that far too many of these ANI threads devolve into unproductive and extended pissing matches, I'll now leave this with the community and trust that the right thing will be done. Others are welcome to ping me if further input from me is required. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:48, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Legal threat

Here, an anonymous editor has threatened me by saying that they will take legal action against me if I revert their edits again. Please block that IP. Here, I reverted their edits because they are trying to erase/hide a name. Now they replaced the name with a nickname. Supdiop (Talk🔹Contribs) 05:58, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

The editor is currently under a 31-hour block but the editor is in the right in regards to WP:BLP. Saying that people are or were members of a band could be considered controversial (although this IP address may just care about marketing more than that). Under that basis, I've removed all the band members until someone can provide sources for them. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 11:04, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Ideloctober refuses to read or learn about Misplaced Pages Policy over on the Frankfurt School talk page.

Once again there's an obtrusive editor over on the Frankfurt School talk page causing problems. The user is Ideloctober (talk) - all the usual symptoms are present: Brand new account. Demands the article be changed without providing any sources for their arguments or referring to any Misplaced Pages policies. Refuses to even visit the talk page guidelines. Has decided Misplaced Pages is part of a Marxist conspiracy, and is now putting in repeated edit requests and generally refusing to work with others (resistant to all attempts at explaining the purpose of Misplaced Pages's policies, even from editors more sympathetic to their personal viewpoint). Any aid in restricting this uncooperative editor from further disrupting the talk page would be appreciated. --Jobrot (talk) 08:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Oh, cool, you went here too. I never said Misplaced Pages was a "Marxist conspiracy", I said that you being given sole editing privileges on the article, while being an outspoken pro-Marxist Liberal who stated that Capitalism would not be permitted to be discussed in a positive way, is extremely biased and unfair. Calling the article a conspiracy theory has caused mass amounts of mockery and jeering by other groups and forums, as it's one of the most blatantly biased and skewed viewpoints I've ever seen on this website in my 10+ years of anonymous or accounted editing here. You, a Marxist, are the only one allowed to make changes to a section about Cultural Marxism, and forbid anyone from calling it more than an anti-semitic racist conspiracy theory. Your bias is sickening, and I suggest your editing privileges on said article be revoked, and that you be required to follow by the same rules you preach to the others. Your personal attacks (calling me and another anti-Semites for requesting a title edit?????) as well as your overt bias are both not permitted on Misplaced Pages. You are accomplishing nothing by attacking me and making fraudulent edits other than proving Leftist-Marxists as yourself are entirely opposed to free, unbiased speech and, as Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol, Che, Castro, Sung, Jong-il, Jong-un, and every other Communist leader in history did, you too prefer censorship and false sources in order to promote your own agenda. That much is obvious. Ideloctober (talk) 09:16, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I remind you that On the Internet, nobody knows you're a Marxist and you're not helping yourself attacking other editor's alleged bias. For both sides, diffs would be helpful. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:35, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Ideloctober, without citing any sources, your arguments on the Frankfurt School talk page simply come across as whining. You say you have been on Misplaced Pages for years, so one would hope you're familiar with the concept of verifiability. And you use the phrase "neutral", so one would hope you understand that neutrality means reflecting what is written in reliable sources. Since you have provided no sources of your own, and given no serious comment on sources currently used, all you've done is expressed your personal displeasure with the viewpoints present in the article. Continuing in this manner will inevitably lead to your being blocked or banned from Misplaced Pages, although continuing to assail Jobrot on a personal level may lead to that even sooner. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:00, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I never called you an anti-semite. I have in fact explicitly stated that the conspiracy theory doesn't always boil down to anti-semitism (diff of that). Also I've said specifically that I don't have any special privileges here on Misplaced Pages (diff of that). I was certainly never given "sole editing privileges on the article" and that's not something likely to happen on Misplaced Pages. Please learn to respect Misplaced Pages's policies and processes if you wish to contribute.

As for Misplaced Pages inhibiting your free speech - Misplaced Pages is not a SOAPBOX for your free speech. Speech on Misplaced Pages is restricted to what adheres to Misplaced Pages's policies and sourcing requirements... which are there to ensure accuracy and verifiability. NOT to facilitate your personal opinions - or for that matter, MY personal opinions. --Jobrot (talk) 10:16, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Someguy1221 and Ricky81682 hit the nail on the head. The rhetoric and unsubstantiated claims made by Ideloctober here on this page are troubling. When you accuse someone of making racist (or other types of slurs) comments, you should really provide the links to back that up. I personally could not find that. And when incredibly incorrect statements like an editor being given "sole editing privileges on the article" are made, that really hurts your credibility. Onel5969 17:22, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• I was contemplating coming here too about "Ideloctober"(who probably also edits logged out with 74.129.76.107. The edits at the George Lincoln Rockwell(An American Nazi) are also problematic. The sources used and edits there are definitely not compatible with Wiki policies. I don't believe any amount of discussion will persuade this editor. Dave Dial (talk) 14:47, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Problematic? Are we on Tumblr now? Never use the phrase 'problematic' unless you want to appear as a stereotypical eFeminist. My edits to Rockwell following a friend editing on the same local IP are sourced with one influential blog and two books both published by Universities. I know how to cite, I know how to source, and I've used them. There are articles with claims far less sourced than mine, and with all this evident Liberal backlash I'm beginning to doubt Misplaced Pages's true neutrality. There is no solid source that Cultural Marxism is nothing more than a conspiracy theory, considering many other sources from the Right or Radical Right back it up. But you won't use those sources, will you? No. It's laden with Left, Marxist, and Progressive sources, which are all fine, but the Right is "too biased". Again, with the Liberal bias you allow to run rampant, perhaps this is why thatm ore than ever people don't take Misplaced Pages seriously. Sure, I think your "Progressive" agenda is the definition of backwards and wrong, but I'm not arguing to attack your ideas or include sources or comments attacking you, I just want neutrality, and you know as well as I do that passing Cultural Marxism off as a pure conspiracy theory by virtue of pro-Marxist sources alone is extremely biased, and it's befitting the agenda you're attempting to impose, Jobrot.

"Base and Sperstructure in the Marxist cultural Theory", Raymond Williams http://www.marylandthursdaymeeting.com/Archives/SpecialWebDocuments/Cultural.Marxism.htm The Free Congress also has many discourses on the topic.

But those are probably much too unfavoring of Marx for you to accept, Jobrot. Ideloctober (talk) 22:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

WP:NOTHERE. The accusations of bias and personal attacks are out of control. GAB 22:48, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Stop focusing on Jobrot, start confining your comments to content and sources. You can do this, or abandon the topic area, or you can leave Misplaced Pages. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:47, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I'll abandon the topic area. Please wipe this section out whenever possible. I didn't mean to cause such a fight. Ideloctober (talk) 23:18, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

This user has continued to take it upon themselves to make personal commentary/attacks against me elsewhere (specifically on their talk page). --Jobrot (talk) 00:41, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• The editor continues to use blogs(anthonyflood.com) for sources on the George Lincoln Rockwell article. Using blogs to claim that the US Government assassinated the American Nazi leader here(noncounterproductive.blogspot.com), same here, adds more conspiracy claims with another blog here(anthonyflood.com) and keeps adding again and again. Claiming that JFK and MLK get conspiracy theories, why not an American Nazi(edit summary). This editor is not here to build an encyclopedia or not competent. Dave Dial (talk) 03:00, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• The sources were from two University press books. If you believe Rockwell being a Nazi means he shouldn't have the same treatment other assassinated politicians and political activists do, then that does seem a bit biased. However, I've stated I'll cease editing the articles in question and have said nothing else on the matter. I'm not entirely sure what the continued ganging-up will accomplish here. I'd be lying if I said I didn't suspect this is due to my anti-Liberal views on a site where Liberal bias has been accused for over a decade. Quite like going to a baking convention and stating you despise bakers. That's not to say it's the reason or only reason, but I do have a feeling anti-Liberals aren't looked too highly upon here. That being said my edits and wished changes have had nothing to do with politics, but simply establishing neutrality where I feel it isn't present. It's very hard to collaborate in good faith when off the bat it seems you're being told your opinions on a subject are wrong, and when you're outnumbered as I am now. Lastly, I have indeed stated I won't make any more edits to these articles, and apologized to Jobrot for making him feel I was personally attacking him. This really has no further purpose. I didn't intend on being disruptive or causing conflict, and admittedly I got a bit heated on the topic. Ideloctober (talk) 10:00, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: In addition to Ideloctober's problematic editing, he is clearly a WP:Sock. I support indefinitely blocking the Ideloctober account. Flyer22 (talk) 11:28, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• • I've apologized and stated that I will let it go. I think this has been resolved. Ideloctober (talk) 01:14, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• • • Comments like this do not lead one to believe that you are letting it go. Rather the opposite. --‖ Ebyabe - Health and Welfare ‖ 02:56, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• • • Am I not allowed to talk to other users? Am I not allowed to tell someone to not let people get them down? It didn't even pertain at all to this situation. I deleted my comment, if that fixes things. Ideloctober (talk) 03:53, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a place for you to conduct a personal political witch-hunt. You've been brought here for accusing others of promoting a political bias (whatever the bias may be, but in this case for having a Marxist and/or Liberal bias) your response to this has been to accuse others of calling you antisemitic which you've absolutely failed to prove. You've been warned several times in several places and claim to have changed your ways - yet you are still conducting an anti-marxist witch-hunt and making accusations of political bias. Misplaced Pages is not a battleground WP:BATTLEGROUND - yet you continue to use it as one despite the best efforts of your fellow wikipedians to coach you against this behaviour. I believe you will continue to have difficulty understanding what the problem is with YOUR actions in favour of perceiving a Marxist bias everywhere and editing for political interests rather than for the interests of creating neutral encyclopedic content. I think a ban would be appropriate. Please keep your political views OFF Misplaced Pages. --Jobrot (talk) 05:14, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Cotap Spamming

I would like a couple of more eyes on an article if you can, the Cotap article. Over the last six months or so a series of IPs and low time registered accounts have been adding information on a "controversy" around this company spamming emails to people and using either no sources or completely unreliable sources to support this position. I feel this is over A) Undue weight and B) completely badly sourced. Since I've been reverting these additions, and my "connection" to the company (i.e. none) is now being questioned, I believe should bow out of the article to avoid drama and any possibility of edit warring in case I'm viewing it wrong. Could someone else give it a drive by and maybe chime in with their view? I did protect the article a couple of times due to the roving IP edits, and it is currently protected against non-approved users. Canterbury Tail talk 11:53, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

My advice is not to abandon the article unless you want the spammers/disruptors to win. If the information has merit, they are welcome to find WP:RS that reports it. If not, it's not appropriate. Misplaced Pages isn't Google or a newspaper, and doesn't report every claim that shows up on Google. These IPs and whatnot (and even the reports on forums and Google) could also be competitors looking to slander the company. Softlavender (talk) 12:07, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm the one who wrote the "Spamming controversy" section on the Cotap page. As I've stated in the article's "Talk" page, I have no connection to the company, except as a sysadmin of an email domain which they have targeted with their UCE (Unsolicited Commercial Email, aka SPAM). Additionally, I want to state that I have absolutely no relation to any of the company's competitors, and also that I have no axe to grind with the company; my motivation for writing the aforementioned section is that I find it worthwhile (and enhancing to Misplaced Pages as a whole) to report on the company's current affairs and practices, as it's the case with the issue at hand. All the edits I did to the page was while logged in with my Misplaced Pages id, so I do not understand what you mean by "roving IP edits". I also want to note that I have a long story as a Misplaced Pages contributor (since 2006, please check my contributions page), and I want what is best for Misplaced Pages; I think it's unfair to imply that I'm a disruptor/slanderer/spammer. Regarding adherence to WP:RS, please note that it offers (as of necessity) only general advice on what is permissible or not, to quote: "Internet forum postings, or tweets—are largely not acceptable" (emphasis mine); the only part of the WP:RS that mentions forums is regarding material on living persons, which is not the case here, and I also took care to list other references which are not forums; please see the paragraph I just added to the article's talk page further explaining my reasoning in this regard. As a final (for now) note, I ask that you please refrain from deleting the section I've added while we are discussing it. Thanks for your time and consideration. Durval (talk) 13:58, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

(Point of note, according to WP:BRD once you've added content and it's been removed (by several users) you should not add it in again until agreement has been reached, not continue to add it and tell others not to remove it.) According to the history there are many IP addresses adding in the same content and now 5 different users have removed this content. In order for this material to be included in Misplaced Pages you need to have reliable sources for A) the fact it is happening, B) that it is widespread and C) that it is considered a controversy that is discussed by independent third party sources and D) something more than trivia. Canterbury Tail talk 14:25, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I see only two other users (besides yourself) removing the section, and those other two only happened in the last few minutes/hours after you asked other editors for help here. So I'm refraining from undoing the removals now as per WP:BRD, but I ask other editors who are reading this to please add it on my behalf. On a final (for now) note, I point that you (and the other editors helping you) have not answered my defense of the sources used, which I posted in the article's talk page, and just went on and removed it again. I think this is undue censorship, and that the right thing to do is to keep the section up while it's still being discussed. Again, thanks for yout time and consideration. Durval (talk) 14:35, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

That isn't how things work here, Durval. We need a solid source for information like that, not to mention that, as you've been told, continuing to re-add the section after it has been removed is edit-warring, which can and does regularly result in a block. Also, I suggest reading WP:Sock puppetry#Meatpuppetry before you continue your canvassing off-wiki; at this point all you're going to do is waste admins' time and get the article semi-protected to stop your little power-play. —Jeremy v^_^v 16:54, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

<procedural note. User:Durval has solicited offsite encouragement for people to edit war on this topic. See the thread here.> Canterbury Tail talk 15:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I will note that two SPAs showed up on the newly-minted AfD discussion. One is an IP; the other is a registered user; both have only ever made edits related to Cotap. —Jeremy v^_^v 17:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• I'm interested to hear what other admins think of the off-wiki canvassing signaled by Canterbury Tail. I consider that blockable. Drmies (talk) 17:20, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

While Durval has been here more than long enough to know the rules, I wouldn't call for a block on it (despite the fact that they mention I've been calling to have them blocked, which hasn't happened.) I think that was a heat of the moment and can assume good faith. Canterbury Tail talk 17:34, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• I'm of the old school, I suppose. Durval, it might be interesting to hear your comment. In my opinion, such canvassing has the potential of leading to great disruption. Drmies (talk) 17:38, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

The canvassing can be handled by the closing admin on the AfD, but as relates to the non-RS material repeatedly being reinserted into the article, I agree this is going to cause great disruption. My view would be to warn Durval that he needs to either delete that canvassing post or, if that's not possible, retract the canvassing in that thread and tell the people in that thread to stay completely away from the article, or else he faces a block. By the way, here is a more direct link that goes right to the canvassing and does not require any scrolling: . Softlavender (talk) 21:58, 7 August 2015 (UTC); edited 10:15, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Long term pattern of POV edits and edit warring by User:Jimjilin

I started to post this to a current thread about Jimjilin at 3RR (opened by David Gerard), but it's really more appropriate for ANI.

Jimjilin and I have some overlapping interests it seems, because I keep coming across a reliable pattern of POV edits followed by edit warring over those edits, sometimes over the course of many months. Though he's been blocked for edit warring in the past, he's a relatively experienced Wikipedian and rarely breaches 3RR. Airborne84 opened an ANI thread about him in December, but other than a comment from Xcuref1endx it did not attract attention or result in any action.

The current 3RR report concerns Jerry Coyne. Here are some other examples:

• At Promiscuity: sustaining multiple edit wars. One is over adding a statement about promiscuity and health: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Another (related) is edit warring to downplay a source which that says the opposite of the claim he wants to press, adding poor sources to contradict one that passes WP:MEDRS, and alleging it's other people mischaracterizing the source: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.
• There are other examples in many, many articles Jimjilin has edited: Paul Singer (businessman), Thomas Piketty, Criticisms of Marxism, Michel Foucault, Moral panic, Cecile Richards...
• An edit war at Michael Kempner led Mosmof to open this thread at RSN a couple months ago. In that article Jimjilin added the same thing 12 times between October 2014 and June 2015: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

I believe Jimjilin has some productive contributions to some articles, and I truly hate bringing people here (it's only happened a couple times before), but POV and edit warring constitute a shockingly high percentage of his edits and, judging by past blocks and the long, long list of warnings/comments at his user talk page, there does not look to be any indication of the behavior stopping. — Rhododendrites \\ 20:43, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

That...are a lot of warnings. Copyright violation, edit wars, POV edits...

The diffs and contributions show extensive disruptive editing, and the talk page shows a complete ignorance of warnings.

How did that user get so many warnings without being blocked?

I'd say infinite siteban for long-term disruptive editing, including copyright infringements, ignoring a total number of fourty warnings...--Müdigkeit (talk) 20:56, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

As mentioned above, I've had limited interaction with Jimjilin because of a content dispute. I think what complicates things is that the user is actually operating in good faith and doesn't seem to see a distinction between POV and fact, so like Rhododendrites, I don't want to see a long-term block. That said, Jimjilin has been blocked before and all the warnings and friendly links to guideline pages are obviously not making a difference. Mosmof (talk) 21:24, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

@Mosmof: No, I no longer believe he is acting in good faith. He has made some productive contributions, yes, but the reason I brought the issue here is because of an egregious extent of edit warring despite being warned/advised many times; persistent WP:IDHT as displayed through editing, edit summaries, and talk page posts; misrepresentation of other people's arguments or ignorance as an excuse to continue edit warring (e.g. ~"this satisfies your concern" or ~"let's just go by what the source says" while changing the text to a POV interpretation of the source); clear POV nature of a large percentage of his edits (often tacking on a line of "criticism" based on a single/poor source after well-sourced content); and having to be told everything repeatedly every time, just for him to do the same thing months later. As I said, I hate bringing people to ANI, largely because I can usually find cause to assume good faith on some level or because the issues are compartmentalized in some way, but after months/years of the same, Jimjilin has exhausted that AGF. It's possible something like a 0RR could solve the biggest problems (not 1RR as he's shown a willingness to continue an edit war over long, long periods of time), but I think that would just delay the inevitable. — Rhododendrites \\ 21:44, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

@Rhododendrites: I've come around and support a long-term block precisely because I think he's editing in good faith (no really, work with me here. There are obvious blindspots when it comes to partisan topics, and there's simply no awareness that he's doing anything wrong. If the user was willfully pushing POV and trying to get around policy, then I think there's a chance for change in behavior. But with all the warnings and friendly advice he's received and he still doesn't get it, then there's no hope. Mosmof (talk) 19:28, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I am an uninvolved editor. See: GAB 22:21, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

... or this.--Müdigkeit (talk) 22:26, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

A quarter of the warnings received would still be grounds for sanctions. GAB 22:39, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• I don't know what you are proposing, Rhododendrites, but I support whatever block or ban that will stop this editor from editing WP:Disruptively. He is a prime example of a WP:Edit warrior and someone who disregards WP:Policies and guidelines too often; if he had valid WP:Ignore all rules reasons for acting the way he does, things would be different. And even if he were to have valid WP:Ignore all rules reasons, that is not a policy to invoke on every whim or in most cases. For the record here in this thread, I'm one of the editors who has dealt with Jimjilin's problematic editing at the Promiscuity article. Flyer22 (talk) 23:53, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• @Flyer22: The main reason I didn't explicitly propose a block/ban is because I'm involved and wanted to bring it up here to see what other people thought the best way forward would be. Maybe it's better to be specific about a suggested course of action, though. So for the record, I see no indication whatsoever that Jimjilin is WP:HERE. Countless warnings and words of advice over the course of years has made no apparent difference in his editing patterns, so barring a credible expression of a radical change in perspective, I think that if we're thinking about preventative rather than punitive measures, an indefinite block is the only option. — Rhododendrites \\ 00:22, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Oh, yes indeed. Support. GAB 00:56, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support whatever it takes to stop the misuse of Misplaced Pages for POV pushing—I saw the five virtually identical edits (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5) at Jerry Coyne and it is clear this editor will continue for months. Those five edits occurred on 6 and 7 August 2015. Adding WP:DUE encyclopedic information is fine, but adding fluff criticisms is not helpful. I picked another article from Jimjilin's contributions and saw two virtually identical edits to again add fluff criticism (1 + 2). Something like WP:1RR could be tried, but that may just draw the process out because it can be used to repeat an edit once a day or once a week. Johnuniq (talk) 01:21, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Rhododendrites seems to follow me around constantly deleting my additions. It appears he wants to silence opinions that he doesn't like. In the Kempner article Rhododendrites claims I "added the same thing". He is mistaken. I made many changes to my additions. I usually respond to comments from other editors even when these comments (in my opinion) lack merit. I did disagree with Rhododendrites in the Promiscuity article, but disagreeing with Rhododendrites does not = disruptive editing. Rhododendrites seems to be breaking Misplaced Pages policy, he was not honest in his criticism of me, he is not treating other editors respectfully.Jimjilin (talk) 01:31, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Johnuniq, a thoughtful article by two Phds is "fluff criticism"?! This seem absurd! Here are the authors: Dr. Alex B. Berezow is the founding editor of RealClearScience and co-author of Science Left Behind. He holds a PhD in microbiology from the University of Washington. Dr. James Hannam is the author of The Genesis of Science: How the Christian Middle Ages Launched the Scientific Revolution. He holds a PhD in the history and philosophy of science from the University of Cambridge. Looks like great qualifications.Jimjilin (talk) 01:34, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

My contributions at Paul Singer (businessman), Thomas Piketty, and Criticisms of Marxism I think were well-sourced and they eventually were accepted. In the Paul Singer article I linked to a NYT article amongst other sources. In the Piketty article I linked to another NYT article and a study Piketty wrote with Emmanuel Saez. In the Criticisms of Marxism article I linked to books by Thomas Sowell and Bertrand Russell and an article by Mikhail Bakunin. Can Rhododendrites tell me why he feels these sources are inadequate? Perhaps Rhododendrites is POV pushing and he doesn't like my well-sourced additions because they conflict with his agenda.Jimjilin (talk) 01:56, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Laughably, Jimjilin just got blocked 5 minutes ago for exceeding 3RR. The block is just a routine 24 hours. Meanwhile, based on the overwhelming evidence above and the incredibly long rap sheet of warnings, I Support a block, length to be determined by community consensus or closing admin. Could be anywhere from two weeks (escalating in length if problems continue after it expires) to indefinite. Most folks here, and those who have dealt with him all these years, appear to favor indefinite. Softlavender (talk) 02:14, 8 August 2015 (UTC); edited 02:28, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I checked the user's talkpage and saw our past discussion regarding his POV-push on an article. I was struck by the fact that he wouldn't budge from his POV despite evidence to the contrary from reliable sources that I provided to him. The sources were easy to find but he refused to check further once he had made up his mind. This rigid stance coupled with longterm POV editing and edit-warring is very disruptive to a collaborative project. Δρ.Κ.  03:01, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment An assumption of good faith isn't applicable, and if for some reason it is, the other issue then is an incurable competence issue. Evidence of this: Here Jimjilin attempts to add a POV and decontextualized Piketty paragraph in the Karl Marx article. Here an editor puts the Piketty comment into context, pointing out that Jimjilin ignored or missed the context of Piketty's opinion and was decidedly POV pushing. One month later Jimjilin then moves on to Marxism and attempts to add this, the same exact thing, proceeding as if his attempts to pull the comment out of context in the other article never happened. The same editor essentially had to repeat what they wrote before. Jimjilin responds as if this was the first time this came to his attention. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 05:25, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support block. Enough is enough. Indef seems suitable as they have not improved with warnings. They continuely add poor quality sources that support a specific POV and they have tried to remove high quality sources that don't. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:36, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Honestly, it seems several of you are more upset about Jimjilin's personal views rather than his conduct. I haven't been involved enough to comment fully, but it's just an outsider's observation. Ideloctober (talk) 10:09, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I think the level of cluelessness and disruption displayed in that statement says a lot more about the reason you should be sanctioned in the above ANI about you than it says anything at all worthwhile about this case. Softlavender (talk) 10:25, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I think you don't really know what you or he is talking about. Ideloctober (talk) 01:04, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support any increase in block length. Jimjilin has contributed good content before, but he seems to have a serious ideological ax to grind here. The fact he spent nearly a year at Michael Kempner adding the same disputed content over and over again I think shows a complete disregard for dispute resolution and consensus building. Given this sort of behavior is very old, and still occurring, I think it may be time to show Jimjilin the door. Though I would support his continued presence under strict conditions. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:33, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• I propose this: An indefinite topic ban from political ideologies, broadly construed, an indefinite 1RR restriction, as well as an indefinite allowance for uninvolved adminstrators to use blocks or bans of any necessary length or type for further violations, including indefinite blocks or bans, warnings about copyright as last warning from the community, and a block of sufficient length to ensure that this user reads the warning, this time.--Müdigkeit (talk) 10:52, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• The problem with this is, admins don't have time to babysit individual editors, and the problem/pattern is intransigent, years-long, resistant to a multitude of warnings, and completely unheeding. At this point, it's a NOTHERE situation, and the only remedy is a long long block or a site ban. Softlavender (talk) 11:04, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• @Müdigkeit: I hope you don't mind; I've added a bulletpoint and unbolded your post above. I did so just for clarity, because by not indenting and bolding everything it could give the impression that people below are specifically supporting what you've framed as a "proposal". If you would really like to propose something specific like that, it may be most clear to open a sub-section. — Rhododendrites \\ 21:39, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Actually it occurs to me that since I'm not sure which "this editor" Xcuref1endx means, he/she may indeed have been supporting what Müdigkeit proposed. Pinging to make sure I didn't make this more confusing rather than less :) — Rhododendrites \\ 21:41, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support What this editor has said. I believe competence to be a serious issue here as to which I am not certain what a temporary ban will achieve. Despite the constant warning over and over again, the editor is still under the idea that if "someone wrote something somewhere" it is a valid secondary source and its existence provides it with enough weight for inclusion. Those that suggest otherwise he interprets as having some sort of conspiratorial tendency to censor information or trying to "suppress information". The editor probably suspects that is what this ANI is about, note how he chose to defend himself here above, he still is working under the assumption he is doing things correct and Rhododendrites is attempting to "silence opinions" he doesn't like. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 18:50, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

The first idea I had was also "siteban". However, the user has not been blocked since 2012(ignoring the recent block that is still in effect). Most of the warnings came later. The user has probably ignored further warnings because no action was taken. I also mentioned a block of sufficient length, that doesn't have to be a short block. Probably at least a month.--Müdigkeit (talk) 11:12, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support long-term block. I recommend at least six months. I would hate to see someone permanently blocked, but conversely a block of a few weeks or a month or two doesn't send a strong enough message of "change your behavior to align better with Misplaced Pages's policies". I spent some time on Jimjilin's talk page suggesting better ways to get results at Misplaced Pages, but it appears that he or she is fairly intractable. Jimjilin could potentially contribute in the future, but without a strong message, his or her actions will not change. Jimjilin's talk page shows that clearly enough. --Airborne84 (talk) 14:03, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Xcuref1endx writes: "the editor is still under the idea that if "someone wrote something somewhere" it is a valid secondary source and its existence provides it with enough weight for inclusion." This kind of vague blanket criticism is of course silly and unhelpful. Xcuref1endx and I have differed many times in the past and he is anything but neutral, see my Talk page. Xcuref1endx has made many accusations against me, most of which lack any merit. At times, for example in the Criticisms of Marxism article and the Piketty article, I think Xcuref1endx has been less than cooperative - he has engaged in what appears to be disruptive editing, deleting well-sourced facts which did not suit his agenda.Jimjilin (talk) 04:18, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Ideloctober, I think the extreme hostility of a few editors is driven by their eagerness to cover up facts which fail to buttress their ideology.Jimjilin (talk) 04:18, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry I broke the 3RR rule in the Jerry Coyne article. Editor David Gerard kept insisting on a point for which he offered no proof. I should have been more careful.Jimjilin (talk) 04:18, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Help

Could an administrator please review my request at Misplaced Pages:Requests for permissions/Confirmed because I dont think anyone is watching the page. Thanks! The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 22:48, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I am watching now. Please stop what you are doing there. Thanks. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:01, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• Re-opening this, because I have some serious questions:

1. Why did this brand-new user ask for early autoconfirmation at least ELEVEN TWELVE times, in various venues (including here)?
2. Why has a brand new user, who was not yet even autoconfirmed, been allowed to be a mediator at WP:DRN?

   Minor point: He or she wasn't "allowed" to be a mediator at DRN, but just went in and acted as a mediator, and some of the more experienced mediators have objected. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:28, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

   If they are doing it, they de facto have been allowed, and are being allowed, to do it. Softlavender (talk) 17:46, 8 August 2015 (UTC); edited 18:41, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

   That way of expressing the issue is very harsh, and a low blow, against the volunteer editors at DRN who have been among those trying to deal with this editor. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:23, 8 August 2015 (UTC)#Why has a brand new user, who was not yet even autoconfirmed, been allowed to be a mediator at WP:THIRDOPINION?

   Minor point: Editors at third opinion are not considered mediators. Inexperienced editors who want to be mediators are sometimes told to get experience at Third Opinion first. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:28, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

   Semantics. Call the post what you will, he should not be allowed to do it. Softlavender (talk) 17:46, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

3. Why is a brand-new user, not yet autoconfirmed, requesting Rollback rights, and then altering the decision to decline them?
4. Why is a brand new user, not yet autoconfirmed, requesting Pending changes reviewer rights?
5. Why is a brand new user, not yet autoconfirmed, tagging articles for speedy deletion?
6. Why is a brand new user, not yet autoconfirmed, advising users on COI editing?
7. Why is a brand new user, not yet autoconfirmed, removing material from other user's Talk pages?
8. Why is a brand new user, not yet autoconfirmed, placing block notices on user's talk pages?
9. Why is a brand new user, not yet autoconfirmed, "banning users from editing Misplaced Pages for a period of 1 year"?
10. Why is a brand new user, barely autoconfirmed, a WP:TEAHOUSE Host? Even after being declined by an admin?
11. Why is a brand new user, barely autoconfirmed, reverting edits by admins, and reversing admin decisions, both regarding other users, and regarding himself?

-- Softlavender (talk) 12:37, 8 August 2015 (UTC); edited 16:05, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

From a quick look, I would suggest a well meaning editor who is unfortunately too enthusiatic for their own good. The most serious thing above seems to be altering the decision, but since they left the text itself stand, my guess is they incorrectly intepreted done/not done as an indication of whether the request had been processed rather than whether the right was granted. There is a slight possibility they were hoping that would grant them the right, but it seems unlikely they thought they'd fool anyone by that. In terms of the volunteering, I agree it's problematic since in most or all case, they clearly aren't ready. To peoplke at DRN have suggested they withdraw. Nil Einne (talk) 14:33, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I added four more items, based on further analysis. Softlavender (talk) 14:59, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I think these diffs are rather interesting: GAB 15:49, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I've added more to my post of Qs, some of them based on your last two diffs. Softlavender (talk) 16:05, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• I think, all things considered, and for whatever unfathomable or fathomable reason, this user is a serious problem and a serious disruption to the project and needs to be blocked. (And stripped of his "posts".) Softlavender (talk) 16:08, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• I agree this is a problem, however I would prefer to try for a solution short of an outright block. I would propose the following condtions:

• User:Theeditorofallthingswikipedia is not to request any new user rights or advanced permissions in any way on any page for a period of three months
• User:Theeditorofallthingswikipedia is to refrain from attempting to resolve disputes or answer requests for help, via WP:DRN, the Teahouse, or any other forum for a period of three months.
• User:Theeditorofallthingswikipedia is encouraged nonetheless to keep contributing to Misplaced Pages, in order to gain the experience needed to qualify for advanced perisssions and to have the knowledge necessary to assist other users.
• They are additionally encouraged to consider removing or modifying some of the more questionable content on their userpage, e.g. userboxes pertaining to who granted and revoked confirmed permissions, a claim at being a recent changes "officer" (which is not a real thing) and the outright lie that they were a Time magazine "person of the year".

• It would be preferable if @Theeditorofallthingswikipedia: would simply agree to these conditions voluntarily, but if not we could seeka consensus to impose them.

Thoughts? Beeblebrox (talk) 16:31, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Minor correction: the claim that he was Time Magazine's 2006 Person of the Year is accurate. See You (Time Person of the Year). --Guy Macon (talk) 17:01, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Related: Misplaced Pages talk:Dispute resolution noticeboard#It was bound to happen sooner or later... --Guy Macon (talk) 16:37, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Re: to Beeblebrox: My view is that given the level of intentional disruption and even reversion of admin actions, these restrictions are far too loose. Assuming good faith, which I'm not sure is in any way warranted here, especially from a very close examination of all of his edits (including trawling through all the edits on his talk page, most of which he has removed), he should not even begin to advise, help, or mediate other users for a period of one year; and should not "warn" other users on their talk pages except possibly only by giving them level one warnings from WP:WARN (if and only if appropriate) for a period of one year. Likewise a one-year moratorium on any permissions/tools. Realistically, I think a lot of eyes, especially admin eyes, need to follow this editor, and if it seems reasonable (which I personally think it does or may), figure out if this is all a trolling festival and who the sockmaster is (via a CU or whatever). I personally still believe actual sanctions are in order rather than mere restrictions. Softlavender (talk) 16:45, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Given this user's repeated attempts to gain the confirmed, rollbacker and PC reviewer rights, as well as the titles of DRN volunteer and Teahouse host – all within four days of registering – WP:HATSHOP seems increasingly relevant. However, I would agree that it is more a case of over-eagerness rather than something malicious, and would therefore support the remedies proposed by Beeblebrox in lieu of a block. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 16:51, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
• I appreciate the good faith remedies suggested by Beeblebrox and support them. However I would also suggest all we need to do is warn them that while we appreciate their enthusiasm, they simply need to stop being disruptive disruptive and focus on actual editing lest we are forced to block them. Swarm ♠ 17:02, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support remedies suggested by Beeblebrox, but three months is far too short. Make it at least six months. If it was my decision to make I would make it a year, and add a 2-4 week block. Impersonating an administrator is way beyond any reasonable interpretation of what a "a well meaning editor who is unfortunately too enthusiastic for their own good" would do.

Can we get him off of WP:DRN sooner rather than later, please? His activities are screwing up several cases. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:10, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) I'm suspecting that the account might be a sock. Mainly because, no new user I've ever seen comfortably navigated all the pages, involved themselves in those pages (perfectly), made perfect use of templates, etc.,. And how come the editor correctly came to ANI following the delay of action on his confirmed request? Plus the user seem to have a good grasp of policies. His comment - You might also consider placing this: 'This user enjoys biting newbies and vandals.' userbox on your user page. Before posting another negative or argumentative comment against me, wait for me to handle the mediation at hand and realize that this is going to go nowhere as I am not dropping the case. should've cost his Volunteer post in DRN. Highly suspicious.. I also support Beeblebrox's remedies as a diagnosis. But the user must be blocked unless/untill he accepts the remedies. Regards--JAaron95 17:19, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

This editor has been warned. He or she may be acting in good faith but overly enthusiastic, but occasionally, and in this case, enthusiasm is not enough and can be dangerous. (Alternatively, the user may be a sock.) Unfortunately, I have to Recommend a block in order to reason with the user on their talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:24, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• I have no idea whether or not he is acting in good faith (perhaps he was a longtime IP user beforehand?) but the activity at DRN is disruptive as all get-out. I would support Beeblebrox's suggested remedies, with a suggested one-week block at the first violation. North of Eden (talk) 17:30, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Update: After more closely examining his article creations , (and his uploading of one or two copyrighted images onto Commons), I no longer believe him to be a possible sock (unless he's doing a great acting job). I think he's a new user with serious behavior problems. While I'm willing to agree with Beeblebrox's proposals, I agree with several others here that three months is far too short, considering especially the more serious infractions and behavioral problems demonstrated. Softlavender (talk) 17:37, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
• As he seems to be on some kind of power trip (his dispute resolving style is quite authoritarian) I would also suggest adding something like "User:Theeditorofallthingswikipedia may not misrepresent himself as an official authority, or attempt to exert authority which he does not have." North of Eden (talk) 17:41, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Support the restrictions by Beeblebrox and North of Eden and also agree the level of disruption suggests it might be wise to make them 6 months at a minimum. I should also clarify that when I made my comment above , I was wondering if there was some degree of Misplaced Pages:Hat collecting going on, it was just that I also believe/d there was some degree of good faith and unfortunately there is sometimes some degree of split motivation particularly I suspect for some younger editors. Nil Einne (talk) 18:29, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi, I am going to defend myself against these comments, I was already throuh half of my long almost esssay but I accidentally closed the tab because Im on a tablet. :| And feel free to change this writing from blue. I thought it might be easier or your eyes and maybe my comments could be in a different color to help show the back and forth better. So first off, I asked for confirmation 11 times because I was eager to use some of the additonal tools and be able to edit he semi protected pages when I hit one, and I was using filter IDs to search for vandalism and a few said they wers blocked so I was thinking that they might unblock and I would have access to more leads. Im just going down the list of rhetorical questions, real questions, and accusations btw. So I am allowed to become a mediator/ volunteer/ host at DRN/ 3rd Op./ and at the teashouse. I meet all the standsrds listed. One administrator removed me and another user from the teahouse but his reason was an opinion and I at least met the standards so I put us back in. If someone removes the other user but without a subjective reason, thats up to them in the future to deal with. I requested rollback rights because I was mainly pateolling for vandalism at the time and I thought that they would make reverting edits easier. I didnt know that it was a problem to ask for them, I figured it couldnt hurt. Ill get to reverting the decision in a sec. As far as the pending changes, i thought it wouldnt hurt too, and I beleived that would be another outlet fpr stopping vandalism although I wasnt positive on what exactly it did. I tagged articles for speedy deletion properly and helped out, I did nothing wrong. I advised one user who was COI editing with my BASIC knowledge, I told them the little I knew was true to help them out and I beleive I referred them to a corresponding article. You Softlavender say that I was removing content from others talk pages, please reference that if it indeed did happen so I can explain myself abd I dont recall such a case. Maybe for vandalism or something similar. As far as the blocking, that was early on and I found the template and was curious if it would at least show on a page if I kept it there. I knew it wouldnt apply because Im not an administrator but I was curious if it would work/show up. And then I reverted quickly after. Same type of thing with the decision on the rollback. I was curious if it would show up, I knew it wouldnt give me the right, and I wasnt trying to trick anyone as I didnt edit the text. I was planning kn reverting immediately after but an admin. did first. Both were simply curiosity and know I know I have a sandbox for that. The edits on my talk page were not removed, they were archived. And I do have good intentions which should not even be the issue at hand here from all I have done so far. Your accusation of me being a sockpuppet without any backing is unwarranted. Ill give you a break on that one because I am a fast learner and it is understandable. I did not at all impersonate an administrator Guy Macon and if you are referring to those blocks, it was just experimenting in the wrong place so give me a break, I knew a lot less then than now. JAaron95 I take your comment about me being a sock puppet more like a compliment than Softlavender because I know youre not out for blood. I am s fast learner, and ask for help when I need it, I am still figuring out what works and what doesnt and I am glad that all of you have had a chance to provide your criticism because it is constructive and I will work off it and use it to learn even faster what my role is here. I suggest the proper solution would be to give me a chance. I am looking for a compromise. I do not beleive that a block is a good idea. I am here in good faith and it will simply make me forget about Misplaced Pages and may not return. I know many of you would like thag but I can be a strong contributor. I do like the 3 month idea proposed but beleive first you should rake a chance on me. So I say that you let me go. Softlavender is right, I have all eyes on me. If at anytime beyond that point within 6 weeks, I do anything that is a blatant issue, (agreed by consensus to be a blatant issue by administrators here) then I give you permission to immediately impose the 3 mon. plan. For 1 of the six weeks, I will stay off the teahouse as a host. For 2 of the six weeks, I will stay off 3rd opinion, and for 4 of the six weeks, I will stay off DNR. I believe that I have shown that I am a fast learner, and I beleive that this period will be a good learning period to get me ready to be set on my way. I beleive that I have explained myself well and provided a good compromise. Thanks, The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 19:17, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Not acceptable, T. Your hubris is mind-boggling. You cannot lead before you follow; you cannot run before you walk, and you can't even crawl yet. What in the world makes you think you can have an advisory role on Misplaced Pages? Misplaced Pages is not therapy. If you feel a strong inner need to advise, mentor, or lead, do it in some venue where you have actual experience and expertise. Your stating that your "blocking" of a user for one year was a test is another mind-boggling thought. Do you even know how to use the Preview button? If not please learn that. I will indeed provide evidence of your removing material from other users' talk pages. And do not assume bad faith on my part or anyone else's -- we are here to protect the encyclopedia, and your behavior, besides being presumptuous, has been very disruptive. Softlavender (talk) 19:31, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
• @The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages: I am confident that you have meant no harm. That said, you have caused considerable harm. A number of folks at WP:DRN have expressed discomfort with your efforts to mediate disputes. This damages trust in the DRN process and creates a headache for other volunteers. And, while you may not have intentionally impersonated an administrator, issuing someone a ban as an experiment is highly, highly improper. At the end of the day, you are not ready to be in a position of authority or to mediate discussions. Your disregard for Misplaced Pages policies, while not malicious, is serious. You are a new editor, and you should be working to create content, perhaps address low-level vandalism issues, and maybe contribute at WP:Articles for deletion. And, in my view, that is all you should be doing for several months, until you get the hang of things and are ready to move on to more complex fora. North of Eden (talk) 19:43, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• I support the idea of no extra roles/responsibilities for 3 months, and no requests for additional rights either. To me, this seems like an overeager new user (possibly a young user too), who wants to do everything immediately. They need to slow down and learn how the Misplaced Pages processes work before attempting all the complicated things- the most important thing overall is writing encyclopedic content, not getting as many roles/responsibilities as possible. I'd also recommend a mentor, they tend to be good at helping newbies to learn the ropes well. Joseph2302 (talk) 19:45, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Informational: in this section of the editor's talk page, s/he was encouraged by two other editors. I am not casting blame; I'm simply pointing it out. Omnedon (talk) 20:05, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes I do know now how to use the preview button nor did I actually block the user. The users actions were not worthy of a block at that point so why would I block them especially for a year!!! You are relentless, unable to take a mistake of a user on their first day, and you are distressing me in real life. Unless you can get a handle on your hatred towards things that I have done on wikipedia and can calm down, I am formally requesting that you leave and leave it up to the other administrators who have a handle on their emotions and can hold a calm, non accusatory discussion on how things can be fixed and I can better serve Misplaced Pages. The other administrators are handling this very well but on my first day, I gained a hatred for what vandals did, I started to be harsher and take it out on them, I quickly realized that what I was doing was not good and took a breath and started to conduct myself with a more neutral stance when warning vandals. I dont believe that you have learned that fully yet, nor have I but you being on here for 8 years should have realized that when you believe that everyone is wrong around you, your probably the one whos wrong. I realize that I was hasty to get into things and had a few behavioral issues but at least give me a chance before putting restrictions on me. Mistakes are good you learn from them and put them behind you, and thst is what I am going to do from this point forward. Thanks The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 20:12, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I tried several times to give you a chance to do better; but you not only didn't do it, you became offensive. Omnedon (talk) 20:17, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• @Omnedon: I wouldn't necessarily call my comment encouragement; I thanked the editor for volunteering, said his work was appreciated, and offered suggestions for improvement. But there is another edit, which he deleted, that is relevant. Once I reviewed your concerns on the DRN page, I asked him very explicitly to stop participating at DRN ; he removed my message. Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 20:20, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I understand. This was mainly in response to point number 2 above. I think it has been questioned why such a new user was not actively discouraged; but please don't misunderstand me -- I in no way blame you. These things are bound to happen in a volunteer-driven system, since one never knows for sure what a new editor might do. You assumed good faith, which of course is good. Omnedon (talk) 20:24, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Understood as well; your point is certainly legitimate, and I don't feel that you're casting blame at all (just wanted to clarify the situation). North of Eden (talk) 20:26, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• As requested, here are the instances of the user removing material from other users' talk pages: ; ; and (that last is removing a {{help}} tag without responding on the page). By the way, here is another of the many anomalies in the editor's contributions: placing templates and notices on another editor's userpage instead of their talk page: User:HCSRN. Softlavender (talk) 20:21, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Im sorry Omnedon I did horribly on your case. I think it is best to take full accountability. My opinion overtook my want for neutrality there for a minute. I did open two new cases and started handling them much better but due to this going on, North of Eden took them on. Thanks, The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 20:24, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

And User:North of Eden, I archived your message because with all this going on, my talk page was getting cluttered and confusing for me. I took note and have not been on since. Thanks The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 20:26, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

>I did in fact respond too if you look in the archives. I didnt put your username tjough probably you not readinf it and causing th confusion. Thanks The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 20:28, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support The proposed conditions of Beeblebrox, except for the removal Time person of the year user box--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:33, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

For the first one, I accidentally overwrote a automated teahouse message. For he second, I put a speedy deletion notice on a page without one and when to notify the creator of the page but there was already a notice of speedy deletion on the talk page but not a corresponding one on the article so in order to get rid of any confusion, I put my notice of the speedy deletion on their talk page and removed the other as there was not a corresponding notice on the article. Finally, the user's question was answered already (which you so easily forgot to include) so I deleted the help box. At the time, I didnt know how to mark it as already helped. Also, since one users talk and user pages were both blank, I accidentally posted the notice on their userpage instead. Ive already completed discussion about these. Thanks The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 20:36, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

There's nothing accidental about the first one at all, you deleted an entire wall of text, with its header. And your characterization of the second one is incorrect as well -- you deliberately interrupted and refactored Loriendrew's post. The fact that you deleted the help tag without discussion, query, comment, or even edit summary reveals that you do not fully understand how that works, as in so many other things on Misplaced Pages. Softlavender (talk) 20:52, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support (uninvolved non admin) The restrictions proposed by Beeblebrox sound about right. But the length of time is way to short, 6 months to a year would be far better. AlbinoFerret 20:50, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support although I think that the restrictions are too easy and too short. Also Support a Block until consensus is reached on the restrictions. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:31, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Note -- (edit conflict) gah--edit conflict makes this one kind of a pain to redo quickly. @TEoATW, please stop with the blue text. ok tried again and made it in time :) -- I went ahead and removed The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages's use of blue text for his/her entire comments here (but left the signature intact). It's WP:SHOUTing, but I hopefully I'm not the only one that finds it an impediment to reading this page such that it's not a WP:TPO issue. I'd invite anyone who disagrees to revert. — Rhododendrites \\ 21:18, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Siteban?

It might seem a bit fast, but, in my opinion, someone who thinks(or pretends to think) that he/she is an adminstrator despite evidence to the contrary, by acting like one, and contiuously acts like one even after warnings should be sitebanned as fast as possible. There is no way this user will contribute positively.--Müdigkeit (talk) 20:30, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Müdigkeit I have already contributed positively in many ways but only my worst experiences are going to be listed on here, giving a horrible impression of me in general as a user. I am trying to come to a compromise and many have agreed that I do indeed have good intentions so I believe that something different would probably be mlre constructive. Thanks The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 20:39, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• @Müdigkeit: You raise a good point, but I think we should give TEOATW a chance to follow Beeblebrox's suggested rules. The big issue here is that TEOATW shouldn't be acting as a mediator, decisionmaker, or authority figure until he becomes familiar with how the community operates. If he fails to follow the strictures set forth by Beeblebrox, sanctions would be in order. North of Eden (talk) 20:43, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Per User:North of Eden, I think we should try the editing restrictions first. If they continue to be disruptive then maybe a siteban would be necessary, but currently I see them as a good-faith editor who just needs to slow down. Joseph2302 (talk) 20:45, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Lets give the restrictions some time before blocking them. AlbinoFerret 20:53, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I am not convinced, but if you think that this is the better way... It would be nice if you are right, and this user can be blocked quite fast after this, if I am right. If I am right, I just hope that this user doesn't drive anyone away from Misplaced Pages with his/her last actions.--Müdigkeit (talk) 20:54, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• I think Müdigkeit brings up a good point. The editor clearly has a strong agenda, and one that is enormously out of bounds. How that will play out in the future, e.g., with the imposed restrictions and so forth, remains to be seen. I feel that it is imperative to err on the side of caution with this editor. Softlavender (talk) 20:56, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• For the record, I cannot support either the counter-proposal or the siteban. The counter proposal is just ridiculous on its face, and a siteban is overly harsh and grossly premature. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:02, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

What counter-proposal are you talking about? Softlavender (talk) 21:06, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Hes talking about my proposal. I "clearly has a strong agenda" really? Am I some villain plotting to take Misplaced Pages over? Youre sure making it sound that way. I feel that you are attempting to give me a severe punishment especially because I am pushing your buttons. Your edit at the top of this article where you crossed out eleven and changed both eleven and twelve to all caps is indicative of you not attempting to deescalate this. I do realize that I have gone too fast, have made simple editing errors, and have shown potentially indecent behavior to some contributors so I beleive that we should discuss a punishment. The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 21:07, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

T, the number was always in all caps, from my very first post -- you can check that in the edit history. I changed it to twelve because I found yet another request when I was collecting the diffs you requested. And yes, you do have an agenda, although I never said or implied it is a sinister or negative one. Your desire to do things you have no place doing is simply preposterous, and has been disruptive. Softlavender (talk) 21:15, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Ultimately, I think the only reasonable suggestion, and the only workable one, is that suggested by Beeblebrox. The user in question is sort of like a hurricane sweeping across important pages, like DRN, and leaving quite a bit of disruption in his wake. Beeblebrox's suggestions are essentially levees, defending these pages and constraining the editor from causing more disruption. I think at this point it would be helpful if we could come to a consensus, accept his suggestions, and move forward from there. Sanctions could be imposed if the restrictions are violated. North of Eden (talk) 21:07, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Cont from before Siteban

I agree with User:North of Eden. I think that we should all discuss some form of the Beeblbrox?'s plan. I think that that is the general consensus here. Thanks The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 21:14, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I think we need to wait and see if other editors may weigh in. This discussion has not even been open 24 hours, and people are in different time zones, etc., and not everyone checks Wiki every day or whatever. If you like you can chill out while the discussion continues, unless someone asks you a question, in which case I encourage them to WP:PING you. Softlavender (talk) 21:21, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Ok that sounds good User:Softlavender But at this point, I am requesting that you not be a part of this discussion. You are making me emotionally upset with some previous remarks, like claiming to definitively know my intentions and pretty much saying that I am lying and I feel that you are making me out to be a bad person and are being much too harsh. I would appreciate if this was carried out by the other administrators as they have a much better manner about the way they conduct these sort of things in my opinion. I feel that this is my right to ask for this and if you User:Softlavender continue commenting on this, it is plain rude and hurtful. Thank you The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 21:24, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Ok sounds good Rhododendrites. I wasnt sure if it was ok. Its probably good you spoke up sooner than later otherwise it could have become a huge mess :). I just had it on to make this less confusing but it doesnt matter in the great scheme of things. Thanks The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 21:27, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

At first: Could you,@The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages:, please remove everything from your user page that shouldn't be there? Second, please tell us why you did all that what was criticized here.--Müdigkeit (talk) 21:34, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

And third, @The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages:, please explain why you believe that you have the right to ban @Softlavender: from this conversation. Just because they don't agree with you, that doesn't make their opinion invalid. Frankly, this attempt to silence those that oppose you is making me feel less convinced that you have good intentions here.

"I would appreciate if this was carried out by the other administrators- please learn what an administrator actually is, most of the people here aren't admins. Joseph2302 (talk) 21:51, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I will change recent changes officer to patroller, I didnt realize there was a real difference. And time 2006's person of the year was everyone so that doesnt apply. I explained above in the huge monolouge my responses to what was critisized. Some of the claims against me were really not that strong and were more centered around newbie mistakes and some were very true, I have made some behavioral mistakes but not in the potency of what Softlavender is describing. I am going too fast but I dont think that that should be punishable just warned. I am making a proposal below on what I think should happen based on my actions and based on how I realise I need to change. Thanks Müdigkeit. The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 21:53, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I am going to make a proposal based on Beeblebrox's.

1. I am not going to request permissions or advanced user rights for a period of 60 days 2.I will not act as a mediator on DRN for a period of 90 days. 3. I will not attempt to resolve disputes via the Third Opinion page for a period of 30 days 4. I will not act as a teahouse host for a period of 90 days. 5. I will modify any questionable content on my user page 6. I will be assigned to an administrator who will keep general watch over me. 7. If I blatantly wreak havoc in any way shape or form, the usual punishment will be tripled. I think that this is pretty fair. My main issues were at DRN which is the same as the original plan and I think that having access to 3rd opinion earlier is better because one admin said that that is good practice for DRN. Also I havent crossed boundaries as far as answering questions, will do my fair share of research, and will not take on questions that are beyond my range of knowledge so that is why I am putting teahouse host so low down on days. As of now, I will spend time making constructive edits to Misplaced Pages so that when it comes time to decide, you will all realize that I am here in good faith and you will have more content upon which to judge my abilities. Thanks, The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 21:53, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi, theeditorofallthingswikipedia! I'd like to ask what's your hurry? Maybe you're just very young and as a result very impatient, but wikipedia is going to be here for more than 90 days. I would suggest that advising others is something you'd want to do after you've been here for several years rather than several months. valereee (talk) 00:31, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

I am not trying to silence Softlavender's opinions. If I was, I would be trying to get all of you off here since 99% believe I did something wrong. Which I did, its undeniable, I had good intentions but it was still wrong. I warned softlavender above that I didnt appreciate the harsh way he was handling things and it felt like he was personally attacking me. He made another comment that distressed me so I said that I wanted them out. Softlavender already gave all the infornmation they found against me and have had a good chance to express their feelings already, their opinion is still sitting on this page. I just did not want any continual comments that were hurtful. Thanks The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 21:58, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Support Beeblebrox's remedy,apologize for anything I did to make the situation worse, express dismay at the incredibly chaotic and WP:MASTODONy atmosphere of ANI.

• The user is new and has amply demonstrated good faith and willingness to build an encyclopedia. Their only problem is overenthusiasm and perhaps immaturity of judgement (although they knew, without being told, to WP:Ignore personal attacks ).
• My messages to them were intended to encourage them to direct their considerable energy and excitement towards uncontroversial content, while presenting them with a model for welcoming, civil WikiQuette. The messages were (I believe) consistent with off-wiki consultation with an administrator. However, if I aggravated the situation or unwittingly encouraged misbehavior, I apologize.
• The user needs to learn more about the humility, WP:AGF, and dramalessness prized by the community. (This ANI, I humbly submit, is not a great example of those, although the proposal they just submitted is.) Beeblebrox's remedies would provide an effective framework for that development. FourViolas (talk) 22:06, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Dont worry User:FourViolas you did not encourage me to make the decisions I did, I already was on the path to do what I was doing. I didnt handle DRN well and that was my main mishap. Thanks The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 22:12, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose reduced sanctions suggested by TEoATW- I believe 3 months is a good clear timeframe, 6 months may be better anyway IMO. I certainly don't feel that 20 day old editors (as they would be in 15 days) should be Teahouse hosts, they should have at least 3-4 months experience. And all the other things probably require that level of experience, if not more. Joseph2302 (talk) 22:14, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
• (Non-administrator comment) I would concur with User:Joseph2302's opinion in that 6 months experience would be an acceptable timeframe to prove suitability as a Teahouse host. As for the other things, I would further suggest a year or two of activity in this project before they could happen. Regards,  Aloha27  talk  22:33, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree with both, and strongly urge that appropriate language be added to the relevant WPspace guidance pages to prevent further misunderstandings like this. Not all hyper-eager newbies will accept criticism this reasonably. FourViolas (talk) 22:37, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support Beeblebrox's proposed sanctions and oppose TEoATW's adjustments. I'm also of the opinion that 3 months will probably be too short a time period, and that 6 months is more likely to be effective, but if 3 months is the consensus, I'll go with that and we'll see what happens. If any more disruptive activities from this editor occurs now, while discussion is ongoing, I agree with Robert McClenon that a block is in order. BMK (talk) 22:41, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Ok Ill change it to 90 days. It doesnt mean though that Ill become one at the 90 day mark, Ill probably wait a while after 90 days now that I see that many are opposed to a newbie coming into the position too quickly. it just ensures I dont become one anytime soon. User:FourViolas & Joseph2302, I changed the period for the teahouse host. Please lookvit over again and reconsider. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages (talk • contribs) 18:42, 8 August 2015‎ (UTC)

Sigh. As you have repeatedly touted what a fast learner you are, you must know that consensus is Misplaced Pages's primary model for decisions making. That being the case, it should be abundantly clear to you already that literally nobody but you thinks it is a good idea for you to craft your own editing restrictions. It would be much simpler if you could just agree to the ones I laid out, which are enjoying considerable support and will probably be enacted whether you agree with them or not. I know you just want to help, but you seem to think you know everything, and you clearly do not. You need to slow way, way down and stop trying to dictate the rules. that is rather the point of this entire discussion. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:01, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

@TEoATW: Beeblebrox is giving you good advice here, please take heed. BMK (talk) 23:42, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

How about this: it is yours but covers a few more issues. If you approve these Beeblebrox, than I will voluntarily agree to them.

1.User:The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages is not to request any new user rights or advanced permissions in any way on any page for a period of three months.

2.User:The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages is to refrain from acting as a moderator, volunteer, host, or any other position on any forum other than as a basic editor.

3.User:The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages can come to the Administrator Noticeboard and request a review on whether these sanctions can be lifted at the 30, 45, 60, 75, and 90 day marks.

I think this gets a little more technical as far as the forums and gives me a chance to appeal here without being penalized because I wasnt sure if that was included in your number 1 or if you just forgot it altogether. Thanks The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 23:44, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm all for restricting requests for user rights and permissions, and I like the language presented earlier about TEOATW not stating or implying a position of authority (moderator, blocking admin, etc.) and I think TEOATW should spend some time working on fundamental skills: copyediting, reverting vandalism without needless commentary, patrolling new pages. As for specific block length, I have no comment. GAB 23:57, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Per @TEoATW's latest suggestions: I am entirely opposed to this editor having anything to say about his sanctions, and find his attempt to negotiate them to be part and parcel of his problem. If he continues to attempt to negotiate, indef block until he's willing to follow the cultural norms here. BMK (talk) 00:38, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Support Beeblebrox's conditions but would be more inclined towards the 6 month mark per BMK and Joseph2302. TEOATW, trying to dictate coniditions now does not put you in a good light and is more likely to backfire on you, leading to stringent sanctions. As it is now, there is a consensus that you be temporarily barred from the more difficult aspects of Misplaced Pages, dispute resolution etc, without penalty, but continued nitpicking of conditions will inevitably lead to conditions with preventative measures, I.e. escalating blocks. Now is a good time to quit while you're ahead. Accept the conditions as they are now and develop wiki skills. In time you will look back and shake your head ruefully how much of a ruckus was raised over this. Blackmane (talk) 00:09, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

My more recent proposition is the exact same except more throroughly explain things. If beeblebrox could include a section to cover possible appeal and can edit the rule on forums to make it more specific then I would consider agreeing to that. I simply covered all the bases that werent in beeblebroxes. I would like him to cover the idea of a possible eventual review for removal of the sanctions whether he allows it or not and would like him to more thoroughly explain the rules on the forums. Thanks, please update your version to explain these better User:Beeblebrox The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 00:18, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• My concluding thoughts on the matter are as follows. I completely support Beeblebrox's recommendations, with two additional comments. First, there should be language (see my earlier comment as well as that of GeneralizationsAreBad) preventing any exercise/indication of authority. Second, I'm satisfied with either a three or six month duration. I see no reason for an appeal process. @The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages: No one thinks you're a bad guy. But right now, you've demonstrated that you can only be trusted with a basic editing toolkit; anything more has the capacity to cause damage, as we've seen. Good luck; this is all I have to say on this matter. North of Eden (talk) 00:24, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• North of Eden: I'm not sure that I quite agree with you that "nobody thinks you're a bad guy". It can be extraordinarily hard sometimes to tell well-crafted deliberate trolling from the fumbling of an overbearing newbie, and frequently intuition, a "gut feeling"or a certain smell that says something might be rotten in Denmark are the initial signs that things may not be as they appear to be. Unfortunately, it can be difficult to get a CU to look into the situation unless they, themselves, have that feeling that something is off. Formal requests through SPI will almost certainly be turned down, a deficiency in our system, in my opinion. All I can say at this point is that a certain very faint odor is starting to waft into the room. At some point one must step away from AGF and ask oneself "What the heck is really going on here?" I don't know the answer, and I'm not even sure of my opinion, but I certainly wouldn't go with a blanket statement of innocence yet. Some of these guys are very sophisticated. BMK (talk) 04:21, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: I consider you much wiser than I, but I'd like to register an objection to that. I was informally accused of socking as a brand-newbie myself, solely because I'd taken the time to read the CCPs and the MOS; it freaked me out and almost drove me off. Ever since, I've encouraged people not to see competence as incriminating evidence. TEoATW has made mistakes, but all of them seem clearly to be the result of bad bold guesses in good faith, especially in the context of their many good bold guesses. Casting indeffable-level aspersions based on a "faint odor" is unfriendly, unfalsifiable, and unkind, and assuming bad faith can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Please WP:DBQ. FourViolas (talk) 05:15, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

My extremely tentative evaluation is not based on "competence". BMK (talk) 05:16, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• It is my view, based on several interactions, but no other evidence, that TEoATW is a very enthusiastic and over-zealous novice editor, and a quick study, not a sock. I think this editor genuinely wants to help others here and improve the project. I also suspect that he enjoys feeling in a position of knowledge and authority -- which isn't horrid, I enjoy that myself, its part of what keeps he here. But I know enough not to let this go overboard. and i do heve soem experience here. But i fear he has become disruptive. I therefore reluctantly support Beeblebrox's recommendations. DES 04:49, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Another side of the street

Ah... has anyone felt a teensy-weensy tingly feeling that we're being trolled, or that there might be a connection of some sort between TEoATW and User:Cityside189? Check their contribs and this post on TWoATW's talk page. BMK (talk) 03:44, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Before this started, I took on a case involving User:Cityside189 and User:North of Eden took over. I think that Cityside seemed to think I was stil on the case and wanted someone with more experience. User:Beyond My KenIf administrators have access to IPs they could probably make an easy check. I just find it amazing how farfetched this forum is becoming and how far beyond the line some of these accusations are going. Thanks The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 03:56, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

So... you've been here for about 5 minutes, and you're telling me how Misplaced Pages works? Keep digging. BMK (talk) 04:10, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Bickering is not productive. Please make constructive comments. There is no reason to criticize me for stating my opinions. Thanks The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 04:26, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Also User:Beyond My Ken I think rhat you are giving me a little to much credit. Ill contact some checkusers and will see if they can look into it and post something on here. If you want to do a SPI, I will willingly go into one and will do anything necessary to help it progress as quickly as possible. Thanks The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 04:31, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Having been tangentially involved with two DRN cases that TEoATW tried to moderate, including the situation involving Cityside189 I don't see any trolling or connection between these two editors. Indeed Cityside189 asked at the Teahouse if a different moderator could be requested. See and . DES 04:44, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• Please see WP:GOODHAND. Cityside189 has been here for only a couple of days. Is his behavior really what one would expect of such an editor? BMK (talk) 04:57, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• BTW, if this is trolling, it's what one might call "meta-trolling". BMK (talk) 05:01, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

BMK I notified User:Cityside189 of this thread, which i would have thought you would have already done. I don't think this is a "goodhand" account, but I could be wrong of course. however I see no suggestive evidence of it. Can you point to any other than his having asked to have TEoATW removed from his DRN case? DES 05:15, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, my oversight in not doing so before. BMK (talk) 05:20, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

BMK, you have made some Strong accusations. Its a big deal accusing someone of being or controlling a sockpuppet. I have made requests for checkuser to be used on these three talk pages of checkusers, feel free to contribute: User talk:Avraham, User talk:Materialscientist, and User talk:Mike V. I chose the three most recently active community elected checkusers so I am really pulling out all the stops here. Thanks The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 04:54, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

CheckUsers will not do "innocence checks" - but maybe you know that already. BMK (talk) 04:59, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

I didnt see a policy against it and unless there is one, the idea that they wouldnt would be a broad generalization. If the check users say no then I will start a SPI on myself. Thanks The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 05:05, 9 August 2015 (UTC) to User:Beyond My Ken

You didn't look very hard. From WP:CheckUser

On some Wikimedia projects, an editor's IP addresses may be checked upon his or her request, typically to prove innocence against a sockpuppet allegation. Such checks are not allowed on the English Misplaced Pages and such requests will not be granted.

BMK (talk) 05:20, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Also, as a side note, Thank You User:Softlavender for recusing yourself. I really appreciate it and it was definitely and act of taking the high road. Maybe one day we can talk on better terms. :) Thanks again, The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 05:08, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Even If I was trolling, Im not sure what I would be trying to accomplish, nor would I make over a few hundred edits to the mainspace. The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 05:10, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Hey, please stop pinging me. If I want to read this thread I'm perfectly capable of doing it on my own, and the pings are an annoyance.I'd be lying if I said I understood the psychology of trolls, so you're asking the wrong person. BMK (talk) 05:14, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

(: K, Ill stop with the pinging, its habit and I prefer others to ping me as I dont like to have to monitor threads. The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 05:20, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

User:DESiegel First off, thank you, I feel that you understand what is going on well although I woule like to say that I dont think what got me here was a need for control and authority but mainly just that DNR incident where I took a side instead of being neutral and just my haste to ask for permissions. Thanks The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 05:20, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Dont tell me if I looked hard or not because I looked hard enough. One may still grant the request as they may not know the rule. Also please post new comments at the ""bottom"" of the thread and not where you believe that they will have the most impact as I might not end up reading them as I do not patrol the previous length of the thread. Thanks The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages 05:27, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive editing and advocacy by 2602:306:b8bf:c0:a17b:1dc4:f754:7974/199.116.169.39/199.116.175.123

2602:306:b8bf:c0:a17b:1dc4:f754:7974 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (who used 199.116.175.39 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 199.116.175.123 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) recently as well) is engaged in long-term disruptive editing and advocacy on numerous Chinese military hardware articles, in addition to engaging in personal attacks. (See the list of other IPs used by the editor below.) The editor does not seek resolutions through talk pages (even when invited to do so) and edit warring is frequent. The editor frequently falls back on any Chinese-language sources; these sources have few if any credentials demonstrating expert knowledge on the subject or give sources for their information (the Chinese web has so many enthusiast writers that there's always some "source" that the editor can fall back on and claim to be "accurate" and "official".)

I have (to my discredit) edit-warred with this editor, both currently and in the past.

Some more recent examples:

CJ-10 (missile)

• 119.116.175.123 adds () "sources" which the editor claims supports adding a ship to the box.
  • The claim rests on a Chinese-language article which extrapolates the fact that the ship carries the missile (which given the secrecy of Chinese military developments, such claims coming from a non-expert source is suspect).
  • A personal attack is issued in another edit.
  • Finally, the editor defends his sources not by addressing matters of its reliability by saying "If you argue that my source is not reliable, then back up with reliable source to prove them wrong"; in other words, the unreliable source must stand unless a reliable source can be found to replace it, rather than removing the unreliable source and its claims.
  • A talk page section is ignored.
  • Only the threat of possible admin action stops the editor from reintroducing the claims.
• 2602:306:b8bf:c0:a17b:1dc4:f754 reintroduces claims from an unreliable source (PopSci) and misinterpreted source (Janes.)
  • The readdition of the Janes article is particularly blatant, since it really does not mention the article subject (the missile's designation has been subject to confusion over the years, so without supporting sources the Janes article should not be used in the CJ-10 article.)
  • I suspect the editor has not bothered to read the article, and is only adding it because I had reverted that same edit made by a different user (who may or may not be a sockpuppet of the editor in question.)
  • The relevant talk page section is ignored.
• Throughout, the editor makes reverts with the comment "removal of sourced content", evidently continuing to lack understanding that not all sources are created equal as per WP:RS and WP:VERIFY
• Similar thing happened on the , again concerning the PopSci source; again, no interaction on the talk page, and the editor seems to be intervening on behalf of another editor (the same one as on the CJ-10 page)

Type 054A frigate

• 199.116.175.123 marks all ships as "active" simply on the strength that the infobox says 20 are active (the number at the time is completely unsupported by the article)
  • I update the "active" and "building" numbers by sourcing US DoD (17 active, 5 building)
  • 199.116.175.123 interprets the Janes article to say that since the 20th ship under construction has been commissioned, that all previous 19 seen under construction have been commissioned, and uses the Janes article as the "source" for each of the ships.
  • I dispute this on the talk page
    • The editor insists his interpretation of the Janes article is correct, and "backs it up" using a Chinese-language source. As far as I can tell, the Chinese source does say the same thing as the Janes article, that the 20th ship spotted under construction has now commissioned, not that 20 ships have been commissioned. The editor thus misinterprets the Chinese source too. This misinterpretation underlies the editor's argument, and the editor refuses to be budged from it. As an additional defence the editor says that since it's all on Baike Baidu (Chinese-language wiki) and supposedly sourced there, everything the editor has done in the article should stand, regardless.
    • Pointing out that the Chinese-language source has no indication of being more authoritative than Janes are ignored (in editor's words, the Chinese-language source: "It is official source, you just can not argue with it.") Also pointing out that saying it's on Baike Baidu is no substitute for proper sourcing and referencing on Misplaced Pages is ignored; essentially the editor attempts to use Baike Baidu to WP:PROVEIT. ()
    • I suggest that if the editor thinks the Baike Baidu sources are good, then the editor should transfer them to Misplaced Pages. This would make the interpretation of the Janes article irrelevant. As far as I can tell, my suggestion has been ignored.

Type 093 submarine

• 2602:306:b8bf:c0:a17b:1dc4:f754:7974 adds a 43 min Chinese-language video as a source. I revert it, ultimately arguing that it is incomprehensible to an English audience (no subtitles, no English summary)
  • The video is readded by 199.116.169.39/199.116.175.123; re-addition is justified by "The source is BETTER than English, it is from official Chinese news media, CCTV 7. Just watch the video as it clearly describes the propeller portion !" and "Does it matter? The source is from Chinese news site, which is more accurate than English version, 093 SSN is a Chinese military product !!!"
  • I start a topic on the talk page; editor refuses to show even after being explicitly invited on the editor's own talk page User talk:199.116.175.123#Talk pages.
• 199.116.175.123 uses a non-expert Chinese-language source to support a change to the "active" number, and claims over the submarines capabilities.
  • I dispute that the article says that the 3 093Gs have entered service, and say so on the talk page. (If you run the article through Google translate, it says the yard has completed construction, not that they have been commissioned.) I point out that contemporary sources support the assertion that the subs were completed, but not yet commissioned. No rebuttal by the editor.
  • The editor claims the Chinese-language source is "newer" than it actually is ("5 As of 8/5/2015 according to official Chinese source", when it was actually written on 29 Mar 2015) and again claims it is "official" and implies it is more authoritative than the other sources (ignoring, of course, how the editor has misinterpreted the source already as stated in the previous point)
  • Editor switches to 2602:306:b8bf:c0:a17b:1dc4:f754:7974 and re-adds the claims, which also highlights the editors ignorance concerning the dates
  • A personal attack is thrown in for good measure.
  • Throughout the editor uses "Removal of sourced content." to justify re-additions, clearly not understanding why they were removed, and of course, avoiding the talk page and deeper discussion.

Shenyang WS-10

• A minor example of the lack of due care on the part of the editor
  • Removes info using the edit comment that "it's not in the source", or "removal of sourced content" (, , ) when what was in the article was indeed in the source (as I explain on the talk page.)
  • Finally, the editor explicitly demonstrates ignorance of the source article's contents, first by elaborating on why the editor thinks the reversions are justified ("The source did not even mention AL-31FM1, where did you get the idea that the latest WS-10 has less thrust than AL-31FM1? You troll !!!!") and almost immediately afterwards realizes that it the information is in the source ("Ok, I read the source. It clearly says approaching. Let us use this word instead of "less". This is more accurate and neutral tone.")
  • In the editors final revision (and the current one), note how any negative connotations toward the WS-10 have been removed to be "neutral". The source article does support the range of a lower bound of 13 t thrust, and an upper bound of the thrust of the Russian engine (this is explained on the talk page.)

Other IPs this editor has used in the past include (all with similar behaviour):

• 199.116.175.27 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 199.116.175.51 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 199.116.175.83 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 199.116.175.94 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 2602:306:B8BF:C0:9104:96F8:421:1AE7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 2602:306:B8BF:C0:A40B:3EC8:EBC1:5351 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I was unsure whether or not to take this to content disputes, since talk page interaction seems to be a prerequisite for that and this editor seems to make it a point to avoid interacting on talk pages altogether. This is in addition to editor's general uncivilness and lack of comprehension. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 03:00, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive edits by Citadel48 at Bougainville Civil War (COPYVIO links, YouTube refs, non-RS, unsourced controversial material, marking major edits as "minor", and edit warring)

Yesterday I expressed concerns on the Bougainville Civil War talk page about recent changes to the page by User:Citadel48, specifically that I felt it fell short of our policies such as WP:NPOV, WP:RS, and WP:V and potentially also WP:FRINGE. I also placed an NPOV and verifiability tag on the article. (Pls see my post here Talk:Bougainville_Civil_War#Problems_with_current_state_of_this_article).

• One of the main issues with the original version of the article was that large parts were either unreferenced or were cited to YouTube videos, whilst the article also used a very old article from the Green Left Weekly (not RS according the RS Noticeboard as far as I could see) to advance a theory which is clearly controversial and presented without balance (with probably WP:BLP issues as well).
• Following that post a number of other editors agreed that there were issues and some of the material was either removed by User:Nick-D (which I of cse agree with) or removed / rewritten by me, whilst in the process I also added a number of reliable sources for some of the material and corrected a number of errors of fact .
• I subsequently added an additional discussion to the talkpage about my concern about a likely inaccuracy IRT Australian helicopter pilots and explained why I removed the content, as the article made a claim about their presence citing a YouTube video but this was specifically contradicted by a fairly recent article in the The Australian newspaper and invited Citadel48 to discuss - pls see here Talk:Bougainville_Civil_War#Alleged_Australian_helicopter_pilots.
• Following this Citadel48 blindly reverted all changes with this edit , marking the edit as "minor", not including an edit summary, and without discussion on the talkpage. In so doing he removed the NPOV and Verifiability tags I had placed on the article and has done so repeatedly since. He then proceeded to continue to make additions to the article that suffered from the same issues, including the addition of videos from YouTube that are likely COPYVIOs.
• I raised the issue on the talk page again and posted a message on his user page here ; however, to date his interactions on the talkpage have failed to discuss the actually issues raised with his edits and only seem argumentative to me.
• As far as I can see there is no consensus for his edits (in particular the insertion of unsourced material and Youtube videos and the use of references to Portuguese wikipedia) and myself and at least 3 other editors have all expressed concerns in the last 24 hours about them on the talkpage (User:Nick-D, User:Peacemaker67 and User:AustralianRupert), whilst previously his addition of similar material to the same article has also been challenged and reverted by two other users (User:JoeSperrazza and User:Arjayay in June and July, however these concerns were simply ignored and reverted by Citadel48 or dubious refs to YouTube inserted )
• This morning his recent changes were reverted by another editor due to the COPYVIOs they contained ; however, Citadel48 repeatedly edit warred, reverting them back - on one occasion not providing an edit summary and on all occasions marking every edit as minor.
• Citadel48 has recently been indefinitely banned from everything concerning Bosnia and Herzegovina and from marking any edits as 'minor' on article pages covered by WP:ARBMAC - pls see here Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Citadel48. This AE also included the significant issue of his long term abuse of the "minor edit" function and use of YouTube videos so he is well aware of the fact that this behavior is considered problematic by the community but has chosen to continue, albeit in an area that he is not subject to sanctions in.
• He is clearly not a new user so cannot claim ignorance of our core policies (especially as I have provided numerous links to them, as have many other editors on his talk page). My conclusion from all this is that he is not here to build an encyclopedia per WP:NOTHERE and I request an uninvolved administrator to review his (ongoing) conduct as it seems to be getting beyond the realms of disruptive and becoming intransigent, demonstrating a complete unwillingness to collaborate or to learn from previous mistakes. Thanks in advance for your consideration. Anotherclown (talk) 05:02, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• I completely agree with Anotherclown's recounting of events, and point out that from the beginning Citadel48 has sought out drama in articles right across WP. His first edit was IRT Sandy Hook conspiracy theories, and a look at his talk page history shows that he has bounced from one drama article to the next, often taking fringe positions and not respecting consensus. I am pretty much convinced he is NOTHERE, and urge admins to impose a month block to see if he gets the message. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 06:01, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, but you are attempting to create drama. These concerns have already been discussed on the article's talk page.

Within one day, you went from asking me to remove the links (which I did), to a month long ban.

Citadel48 (talk) 19:50, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

No there has been no discussion on your part, only half line argumentative responses on the talk page to a number of significant issues that have been highlighted with this article. You have coupled that with reverting all the references I actually added to the article and removing the NPOV and Verification tags repeatedly (which you have still not restored). Per the talk page there is clearly no consensus for the inclusion of most of the material that you have restored repeatedly yet you fail to acknowledge that. Anotherclown (talk) 23:22, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I am not creating any drama. If you lack the insight to see that your contributions across WP are creating drama spot fires in all sorts of subject areas, and refuse to conform to WP norms, that isn't my fault, it's yours. You've just been topic banned at Arbitration Committee. If you don't care about what the community thinks about your editing, you won't be around for long. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 00:06, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

At Bijeljina massacre, you repeatedly removed sourced information that I added, you claimed its' sources were COPYVIO and biased, even though the information came from sources that were there before I even began to edit the article.

Same at Bougainville Civil War, you claim the informations' sources are COPYVIO, I removed the sources' links, yet you still claimed the article was biased.

These actions on your behalf illustrate to me potential political motives. Removing information indicating the Australian Defence Force (which you served in) committed wrong doing? You removed it.

Information showing an event (Bijeljina massacre) was not as one sided as it was? You removed it. Citadel48 (talk) 00:49, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

I've just re-removed this material. As noted above, there's obviously no consensus to include it, and the sources are plainly not reliable. Nick-D (talk) 04:55, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you for your full report, Anotherclown. So let me understand this: the user was topic banned from Bosnia and Herzegovina for an "inability to edit neutrally" there and for marking everything minor, and immediately moved the very same battleground and disruption to another area? I'm afraid I don't see any reason to piddle around with month-long blocks. Indefinitely blocked per WP:NOTHERE. Bishonen | talk 05:25, 9 August 2015 (UTC).

Misbehaving IP

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IP 108.65.249.149 is behaving in a difficult way on Shark fin soup. --Epipelagic (talk) 07:17, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Given what he did before his last block, I just blocked again for six months. If this guy was using an account, he'd have been indeffed a month ago. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:09, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. --Epipelagic (talk) 08:15, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Refusal to lift WP:BURDEN by User:Mhhossein

Mhhossein (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is repeatedly inserting material from a disputed source in Quds Day without lifting his burden to demonstrate its reliability on either the talk page or anywhere else. The source is a partisan Muslim organisation with no reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. I have explained the same user numerous times before that such sources aren't usable per WP:V and he is not likely to stop disrupting the project before action is taken against him.--Anders Feder (talk) 07:35, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Why is this not on WP:RSN? Kingsindian ♝♚ 14:42, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Because WP:RSN is the place where editors not failing to follow WP:BURDEN can ask about the suitability of sources they wish to add or restore, "not the place to discuss other issues, such as editor conduct", as it says in the leading text on the board itself.--Anders Feder (talk) 15:21, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Neither of you have opened a discussion at RSN, while both have been edit-warring over this. It is not permissible to edit war even if you are right. Why are people here? To build an encyclopaedia, not create drama. I count 0 talk page comments by either side, both are arguing through edit summaries. A simple post to RSN would have solved this without any drama. A word to the wise: there are no victors at WP:ANI, only survivors. Kingsindian ♝♚ 15:55, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: What would RSN solve given that it almost never responds? You're obviously a bit of an amateur and mistakenly think RSN is "the ANI-equivalent for sources".--Anders Feder (talk) 16:57, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

@Anders Feder: I have posted many times at WP:RSN, as you can check here. You could use WP:RfC, WP:3O (another underused and very useful tool), or a hundred other things. Posting at WP:ANI before posting on the talk page is really weird. Kingsindian ♝♚ 17:14, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Easy for you to say given that you have zero interest in resolving the issue. Moralizing lectures dismissing everybody else's concerns as "drama" are a dime a dozen on Misplaced Pages.--Anders Feder (talk) 17:37, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Photographic film disruption gets POINTy

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Here's a textbook case of disruption to make a point: lots of fact tags at photographic film. We have a new user who is rampaging through the article, apparently trying to get rid of all the text, reducing the article to nonsense. Can someone with a lot of patience take a look? Binksternet (talk) 07:53, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Sakimonk

Sakimonk has been previously been warned repeatedly, once for edit-warring by Melanie here and once again by myself here. The user continues to edit-war on a number of pages. See for example histories of Qadiani, Ahmadiyya or Template:Islam.

The reason why I am writing here is because I have been subject to uncivil behaviour by Sakimonk here. The user refers to me as a "treacherous qadiani", , "who allies with the enemies of Islam to make war against Muslims". The user continues calling me, "plain enemies of Islam" and "kuffar". I don't think the user is here to improve Misplaced Pages.--Peaceworld 10:00, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I should probably add that this is not the first time the user has been uncivil. The user appears to claim that I have an hidden agenda here.--Peaceworld 10:13, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

actually I deleted that message left on your wall because I realised it was not nice and I wrote something different.

Also I stopped editing those pages and I only put the bit regarding the phrase qadiani - all I wanted to say was that it is the official government term in Pakistan (which it is).

Also the only reason I said those things is because you were harassing me and stalking my edits, going into the Israel talk page and siding against me JUST because I was disputing with you is very unfair.

I actually listened to your suggestions on template Islam so I don't one why you're saying I edit warred there.

Sakimonk 13:15, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

could you find evidence evidence where I have harassed you? If not, that may constitute a personal attack.--Peaceworld 14:22, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Sakimonk is also going around labeling muslim groups he doesn't like as Sects. Namely the Barelvi movement Misdemenor (talk) 19:01, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Loool what!? One minute I have Peaceworld who is attacking me because I'm NOT calling ahmadis a "sect" of Islam and then i have Misdemenor attacking me because I AM calling Barelvis a sect :O, look I haven't bothered you guys so please just leave me alone I'm just trying to get along here but I keep running into you two whereever I go. Peaceworld, I was talking about your talk on israel, you sided against me even though you weren't involved in the convo at all whatsoever, and I got angry and left a message on your talk page which I promptly deleted and replaced with something else after I gave your comments some thought. Sakimonk 04:29, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Recurring violations of IBAN

Per this thread Catflap08 (talk · contribs) has violated our IBAN yet again, and everyone else agrees. Previous violations include joining in a discussion in which I was a key participant, reverting my edits, joining in an unrelated discussion and requesting that I be banned from editing a page he had no prior interest in, and insinuating that another user and I are neo-Nazis based on our usernames.

My interacting with this user has produced no positive results whatsoever, and every time he comes back and starts engaging in this kind of (not-so-passive-)aggressive behaviour it drains my desire and ability to contribute to the project. I have spent the vast majority of my Misplaced Pages activity since the IBAN was imposed trying to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of Japanese poetry (almost all of these articles were created by me since the IBAN), whereas he appears to have gone back to fighting with other users over Soka Gakkai on talk pages with his only article edits being to violate WP:V and WP:NOR, something he has been criticized for constantly. I have been doing my very best to avoid directly joining in these discussions to point out that Catflap08 is continuing to engage in the same disruptive behaviour that led to our IBAN; Catflap08 on the other hand has not hesitated to attack me in whatever venue he can find.

I'm tired of having to put up with this harassment; and it's a blatant double-standard that he can violate the IBAN whenever he wants to and I can't/don't want to. I'd like to see any of the following results:

1. Catflap08 receives a block (at least a short one) for his repeated IBAN-violations, but the IBAN stays in place;
2. the IBAN stays in place, but Catflap08 receives a further TBAN (or PAGEBAN) from pages related to Kenji Miyazawa and the Kokuchūkai, broadly construed -- he has never contributed anything worthwhile to this area, but it represents 75% of his IBAN-violating edits and close to all of his historic interactions with me;
3. the IBAN is dissolved, Catflap08 is allowed continue to do what he is doing with no direct consequences, except that I am also allowed respond directly, and the community works to resolve the underlying content issues.

One or more of these solutions received near-unanimous support (Catflap08 himself was "neutral") in this thread, but the thread was archived before a close could be made. The impartial observers mostly (User:SPACKlick and User:Blackmane but not User:Shii) tended to line up behind consequences for Catflap08 rather than dissolving the ban (solution #1 or #2), and there was a tendency among users with a history of involvement with the dispute (User:Snow Rise, User:AlbinoFerret and User:Sturmgewehr88) to favour dissolution of the IBAN (solution #3).

No one benefits from the status quo, though, so something clearly needs to be done. (Also pinging users @SilkTork: @Wikimandia: @Hoary: @Drmies: and @Dennis Brown: for historic involvement in this dispute -- sorry if you don't want to comment, as some of you specifically stated months ago; just ignore if so.)

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:25, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I have not followed this ongoing drama except for occasionally skimming it if I'm reading ANI. So I'm not up to date on the history but I will say that THIS EDIT from Catflap08 saying that "88" in a username is a some kind of well-known code for Nazi enthusiasts is WHOLLY UNACCEPTABLE and patently offensive. In this stupid comment, Catflap08 has cast aspersions on everyone with 88 in their usernames as possibly being Nazis. There are almost 30,000 of these users on the English Misplaced Pages alone (no doubt many of whom were born in 1988, or are using 88 for any other perfectly innocent reason). If someone knows how I can safely lobotomize myself to delete just this odious factoid, please tell me. —Мандичка 😜 10:47, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Per Nazi symbolism#Continued use by neo-Nazi groups, "88" is in fact used as a code among some neo-Nazi groups. Your notion that he extends this to any username containing "88" seems to be a strawman.--Anders Feder (talk) 11:14, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Well if you want to get technical, those (for lack of a better word) dumbasses use two eights not eighty-eight like Hijiri and myself. When I render my username in Japanese I use 八十八 (eighty-eight) instead of 八八 (eight eight). But if you read Catflap's comment, he's obviously insinuating that anyone using 88 has a "Fascist background". ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 16:30, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

@Anders Feder: Considering Hijiri88 is apparently Catflap08's WP nemesis and all of this is really about this ongoing feud and hatred of Hijiri88 and the iBan is with Hijiri88, there is some kind of insinuation here regarding his 88 username, no? Keep in mind this is about an ongoing dispute apparently related to Buddhism/Japan and (as far as I know, please correct me if I'm wrong) this has nothing to do with any editing of Nazi subjects (such as German, Jewish, Holocaust or World War II, etc). So, Catflap08 writes about Hijiri88: "As soon as the ice gets thin he calls for his cronies including Sturmgewehr88 (being banned from a number Wikipedias for obvious reasons – in many European countries just like Germany the number 88 is a code for a fascist background – based on edits)." ???? He says "based on edits" and "banned for obvious reasons" ... so what has Sturmgewehr88 done to indicate his supposed fascist background? Why is this being brought up at all? If you say I'm using a strawman argument, please tell me what the actual argument/intent is as you see it. Because as a casual observer, again, I think this is a personal attack on H88 and S88 (and potentially all *88 user names apparently). —Мандичка 😜 18:15, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I suspect it is a relatively minor point that should not distract from the overall concern raised by OP. Your reading could well be right.--Anders Feder (talk) 18:59, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

That's true about overall point, I will take some time to more thorough read all the diffs. I may need to give a more thorough analysis in case this 88 remark that grinds my gears is missing a larger point. —Мандичка 😜 19:13, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I had an edit conflict with the above two posts while trying to craft my response. I put a lot of work into it and I don't want to throw it out just because the user to whom I was responding has indicated that he/she is not that concerned and does apparently recognize that the IBAN-violations are an issue. There is also a little bit of important commentary relevant to the larger dispute that I would like to get on the record. I'm removing said user's name from the response in order that it not look like aggressively insisting on getting the last word, though. I hope you all understand.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 19:30, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment The IBAN has been a disaster. The editors edit in the same area and its almost impossible to avoid each other. I am against removing one or the other because most of the problems flow from content disputes. My suggestion for a 1RR for both of them to replace the IBAN didnt receive a lot of discussion last time because of the huge length of the section. Strangely, or not so strange, the sections become walls of text and that slows or stops willingness of the community from input. But I think a 1RR is a good way to stop the battles and force discussion and consensus if not a 0RR for both of them. AlbinoFerret 21:04, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Strong support for lifting IBAN, but a different take on the next measure My thoughts on why this IBAN was never going to work are summarized in my second post of the thread in which said ban was implemented. In short, IBANs are always a dubious, short-sighted and counter-intuitive approach to handling editors who have have refused to collaborate civilly and have an inability to disengage with one-another; in cases where said editors share "close quarters" with one-another on a topic area dominated by articles with limited numbers of editors, it is pretty guarunteed to result in the situation we've seen here -- recurrent disruption on the articles in question and endless bickering on the noticeboards, sucking up massive amounts of community and administrative effort that quite simply dwarfs any benefit the IBAN could reasonably have ever been expected to have. This has been discussed ad nauseum in the threads one or the other of these parties have filed here in the months since the IBAN was implemented and we are well past the point to stop dithering and remove it as the first step to discussing sanctions and other remedies that will put an end to this drama.

However, as to the second point, I happen to think though that 1RR/0RR would probably fail here for the exact same reasons the IBAN has; neither party has the least bit of intention of giving ground in their feud over the tone of numerous articles on Japan's culture, religion, and history and they haven't been held accountable for the disruption they cause between them. The remedy for the refusal of two parties to respect our collaborative principle and behavioural policies is not to suggest that they should try collaborating or behaving better, certainly not at this point. They would clearly both just try to game 1RR/0RR, by rushing to stake-out territory on the disputed articles by being the first to edit on particular points, and then reverting one-another anyway, using pedantic arguments about why they were really not reverts, all landing us right back here. I suggest instead that we review the latest wave of disruption and then topicban one or both from all articles on Japanese history and culture, broadly construed. That is clearly the only way this nonsense ever stops. These two exhausted any reasonable amount of patience the community should display on this matter months ago and though I need to review the most recent confrontations to say with certainty whether both have failed to learn from the previous warnings and are deserving of the proposed measure, I'm convinced there's no chance of stopping this disruption short of TBANs or blocks. The kid gloves have to come of on this ridiculousness; we've been thoroughly enabling this drama and will only have ourselves to blame if we don't draw a line here. Snow 22:50, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I actually agree that Catflap08 should be topic-banned from the area in question (Miyazawa Kenji and Kokuchukai) and, if he shows further disruptive behaviour in other areas (Soka Gakkai and Nichiren Buddhism, for instance), he should be banned there too. But "Japanese history and culture" is ridiculous, for the reasons I outlined below. For Catflap08, let alone me. Additionally, Snow Rise, you are aware that AlbinoFerret has just done what he usually does and taken one off-hand comment by you as some sort of "community consensus" and rolled with it in opening a new sub-thread, and that this is now likely to derail this discussion to the point where it will again be archived with no result, right? Careless remarks like that are clearly a much bigger factor in enabling this drama than "treating it with kid gloves", since it's a demonstrable fact that on three previous occasions AN/ANI discussions of violations of this IBAN have been archived with no result despite a clear consensus to do something. And believe me, I have not been treated with kid gloves in this matter. I have had every single word of my comments closely scrutinized for even the slightest hint of a violation and when such may or may not have been found an ANI thread was immediately opened. John Carter has a history of going well out of his way to read very, very deeply into everything his friend Catflap08's "enemies" say to find some excuse to get them banned from the project in order to defend him. There were no kid gloves involved, believe me. To see an intelligent user like yourself make a gaffe like this makes me feel a pang of despair.

Anyway, if you really think I should be banned from "Japanese history and culture", then I would like you to recommend another user to complete the project I have been recently working on, creating articles on all classical Japanese poets who do not already have them. It would also be very nice if you could demonstrate where I have ever behaved in a disruptive manner in this area. I know you yourself did not say "Hijiri88 and not Catflap08 should be topic-banned" or "both should be topic-banned", but you must know that in such a hot-bed dispute where there is a long history of users jumping the gun and immediately taking any opportunity to request extremely harsh and draconian measures, that even mentioning such a thing without providing extensive reasoning based on evidence is highly dangerous.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:23, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Proposed Topic ban for both Hijiri 88 and Catflap08 for 3 months

This has gone on long enough as Snow Rise has pointed out. It would be wrong in my opinion to topic ban just one side of a constant, ongoing, and seemingly never ending dispute over content. I therefore propose a topic ban from Japanese history and culture, broadly construed for a period of three months for both. With longer bans possible if the problems continue to other areas or when this one ends. This constant disruption needs to end. AlbinoFerret 23:12, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Additional info for those that wonder why I am proposing this. Neither party is innocent. This has been going on for months. Feel free to look through the search results. Like these WP:AN and WP:AN/I . Each time it becomes a wall of text that goes nowhere. Neither party is blameless in this, it needs to end. AlbinoFerret 02:46, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support. The only other options would be indef them both, or to take it to ArbCom. This is the community's last chance to deal with this ongoing disruptive dispute. BMK (talk) 23:36, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Actually, I would also support this as an indef topic ban for both, rather than 3 months. Let's shut this engine down for good. BMK (talk) 00:27, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• @Beyond My Ken and AlbinoFerret: Please show us the diffs in which H88 violated the iBan or any instructions from the last ANI. It's not right to bring up all the older ANIs that have been closed and retroactively punish him. If H88 was given a topic ban, iBan or any other instruction, and he has followed that in good faith, I can't see how the right response to Catflap08's violation of his iBan with H88 is to ban Catflap AND H88 (especially indef!). —Мандичка 😜 03:34, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Ridiculous proposal. This would essentially be a 3-month site ban for both of us, as neither of us has ever expressed any interest in editing any article outside the area of "Japanese history and culture". The proposer has demonstrated in the past a lack of understanding of the dispute in question, and has been called out by myself and other users for attempting to unilaterally sway discussions in ridiculous directions far away from their original scope. Additionally, no evidence has ever been presented that I have edited disruptively in the narrow topic-area under discussion (Miyazawa Kenji and the Kokuchukai), much less "Japanese history and culture". If AlbinoFerret and Beyond My Ken, neither of whom have to the best of my knowledge ever contributed anything of note to "Japanese history and culture" legitimately think that I should be de facto banned from the entire project for three months, they need to present some form of evidence. User:Shii or perhaps User:Nishidani: you have a great deal more experience in this area, and hardly ever agree with me (so you could hardly be called biased) -- is there any chance you could talk some sense into this discussion? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:05, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• What the hell does our lack of participation in Japanese history and culture-related articles have anything to do with anything? The point is that the two of you keep bringing this back to the noticeboards over and over and over again and I, for one, am entirely sick of it, and I am certain that others are as well. Whether I've contributed to your pet subject area is totally irrelevant: the lack of control on the part of the both of you is the subject. Since you cannot control yourselves, we, the community, will do it for you. We've tried an IBan, and that hasn't worked, this is another possible next step. As I said, other possible steps are indef blocks, site bans or ArbCom. If you're more interested in those actions than in trying out topic bans, then we can see how much support we can find for that. But what cannot happen is for this to continue to go on as it has. BMK (talk) 00:34, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

You're saying that a ban should be placed, even though you clearly have not looked at any of the evidence and clearly have no understanding of the dispute in question. "Japanese history and culture" was mentioned, no doubt inadvertently, in an off-handed manner by Snow Rise, and was then thrown out of proportion by AlbinoFerret. You then throw your support behind AlbinoFerret's ... frankly quite insane proposal. This dispute is not about "Japanese history and culture" -- if it's about content at all (and no user who has actually looked at the evidence thinks it is) then it is about one poet and one group he was briefly associated with. Why on earth would you want to ban me from editing every Misplaced Pages article I have ever edited based on this? What the hell are you on about? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:38, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

You've done a very pretty job of twisting my words, well done. Let me simplify for you: the topic bans are because you the two of you cannot behave yourselves, and it will take you out of each other's way -- so it's not about content, it's about behavior. Please do not deliberately misinterpret my words again. BMK (talk) 00:44, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that comment BMK, and I would like to clarify my position above. While the content is the engine that drives the problem, its the behaviour of both of them that warrants a ban. AlbinoFerret 00:51, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Again, please show some evidence that I have not behaved myself? Catflap08 violated the IBAN (multiple times, in fact), not me. Everyone who has commented on the issue agrees on this point. There is not now, nor has there ever been, any evidence presented that the disruptive behaviour was at all mutual. And a TBAN (de facto SITEBAN) does not make sense unless a reasonable parameter has been set; the above-proposed parameter doesn't make sense, because it is based on a misinterpretation of an off-handed remark by a user without much direct awareness of the dispute to begin with, so even if the "behavior" was mutual (it isn't and everyone here except you agrees) the proposed topic-ban would not be appropriate. A TBAN for Catflap08 in the area of Miyazawa Kenji and the Kokuchukai makes sense, and has been supported by a large number of users; if you think I should suffer further repercussions beyond the constant harassment/being called a Nazi I already have, then you need to present some form of evidence.

@User:AlbinoFerret: What does that remark even mean!? "the content is the engine"!? "behaviour of both of them"!? You need to present some kind of evidence to support such accusations, or you'll be the next one up for repercussions from this mess. "Japanese history and culture" is a ridiculously broad topic, and one that neither you, nor BMK, nor even Snow Rise, have any legitimate reason for claiming either I or even Catflap08 should be banned from, given the narrow scope of this dispute. If you think I should be site-banned, then come right out and say it, but be warned that such harsh and unjustified attacks tend to come back and bite the attackers in the lower back.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:58, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

In the last incarnation of this shitstorm, I did indeed support sanctions against Catflap as I felt that they indeed violated the conditions of the interaction ban. However, optimist that I can be, I also felt that just giving up on the ban so soon after it had been implemented would be a shame not to mention a disrespectful waste of the time of those editors who participated in that discussion. I had also hoped that we would see the last of this feud here. If the two editors involved cannot fix it then it falls to the community to sort this out, so I Support the topic ban per AlbinoFerret and BMK. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blackmane (talk • contribs) 20:57, 8 August 2015‎ (UTC)

Wow Blackmane .... so because Catflap violated the punitive directions so quickly after said decision was made means he should be given a pass, in order to see if the ban sticks this time around? Please share your logic on that one. So is there like a 72-hour window, or one-month window, in which the bans shouldn't be enforced, you know, so it doesn't waste the time of the previous ANI contributors? Looking forward to your answer. —Мандичка 😜 03:43, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• Strong oppose Umm why ban for Hijiri88? Nobody has supplied any diffs showing how he has done anything to violate the iBan or anything near it. He has provided diffs showing Catflap08 flagrantly violating said iBan by reverting his edits, insulting him and apparently also calling him as a fascist Nazi. Yet you want to ban H88 for reporting this, because you're tired of reading about here? I'm speechless. Oh wait, that's not the right word. How about appalled. I have seen this kind of apathy/laziness around here (please go see all the unresolved reports in the archive) because people don't want to take the time to look at it or just tired of it. One report last month or so must have taken the reporter about four hours to compile all the diffs showing downright proof of ban evading, sockpuppetry and extreme NPOV violations going back to 2008 (seven years) and the response was "yawn, tl;dr" What's the point of having ANI? (See below) —Мандичка 😜 01:59, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose topic ban for both. Would anyone who is not prepared to examine the situation and find out whether there has been an iban violation per the report please find another hobby. The pollyanna suggestions above that associating H88 and S88 with nazism should be overlooked as minor is also unhelpful—if an editor repeats such an accusation without being able to produce good evidence showing POV-pushing for nazism, the editor should be blocked until they agree to not make unfounded accusations. Johnuniq (talk) 02:42, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Counterproposal: Elevate this to ArbCom

• Support as nominator If the prevailing attitude around here is just "ugh I'm so over this" and thus you want to punish both parties when there (as presented so far) is only wrongdoing by one person, then obviously either a) this is not the right forum for you personally to contribute to or b) this is not the right forum to deal with this anymore. I am assuming good faith here, so I am recommending B. We need people willing to roll up their sleeves and take time to look at this from a NPOV. Obviously, the measures so far coming from ANI are a complete failure. —Мандичка 😜 01:59, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
  • No. Arbcom have enough to do and if ANI can't handle this trivial issue, ANI should be closed. Johnuniq (talk) 02:44, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

I definitely agree with your second statement. —Мандичка 😜 03:21, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• A proposal to "elevate" something to ArbCom is worthless because it doesn't work like that. If someone thinks there's an ArbCom case here, it can be filed at any time, but since an AN/I discussion is open, they're most likely to hold off on accepting a case until the AN/I is finished or archived or runs our of steam. In any event, it doesn't require a proposal. If Wikimandia (who confusingly signs their posts "Мандичка") think the case should go to ArbCom, then they should go file an ArbCom case, no one's stopping them. BMK (talk) 04:28, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism, Sock Puppets?

User:Csalinka, User talk:Csalinka and User:188.36.195.10, User talk:188.36.195.10

These users continue to add destination maps and attempt to change the typo on Nuuk Airport, Zurich Airport, Addis Ababa Bole International Airport, Kangerlussuaq Airport and Presidente Nicolau Lobato International Airport. I have warned the IP and the user. But they don't listen and will not communicate with anyone. They claim that their edits to Presidente Nicolau Lobato International Airport are not vandalism, but they clearly are as they are adding 2000MB bytes of content without providing any sources at all. I also think that User:Csalinka is socking the IP, any further actions would be apprecciated, thanks, RMS52 (talk) 11:38, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Bytes, not MB.--Anders Feder (talk) 11:42, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but that is not relevant to this. RMS52 (talk) 11:46, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Obviously a factor 1000 error in your accusations against another user is extremely relevant. But it isn't central to it, hence the use of small text.--Anders Feder (talk) 11:57, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

1,000,000 All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:32, 8 August 2015 (UTC). So true.--Anders Feder (talk) 18:06, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

The user has engaged in discussion at WikiProject Airports over the use of maps. The vast majority of the destinations on Presidente Nicolau Lobato International Airport are unreferenced. Not sure we should be accusing someone of vandalism is their contribs are merely unreffed. If they are demonstrably and consistently wrong, that is another matter. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:32, 8 August 2015 (UTC).

Users blocking constructive, sourced edits to Kievan Rus' without discussion or proper explanation

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Thomas.W (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Alex_Bakharev (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

These two users have been consistently removing what seem to be any and all ties between Kiev and Kievan Rus', as if the history of Kievan Rus' does not belong to Kiev or Ukraine. Surely, its is not an issue that the history of Kievan Rus' belongs to Belarus, Russia and Ukraine. However, these users have consistently been deleting many edit made to Kievan Rus', including the following deletions of two of the most recognisable symbols of Kievan Rus', presumably because these symbols would correctly associate Kievan Rus' with Ukraine:

1. The removal of the image of the Golden Gate of Kiev.
2. The removal of Vladimir's trident, the emblem of Kievan Rus' (10th-11th centuries) used on seals and coins, referenced with Symbols of the Rurikids.

I should stress, these deletions have been done without talk, and without proper reasons. Nonsensical reasons are sometimes given such as "lack of proper attribution" or unsubstantiated claims of sock puppetry even though all edits have been made by me, and only one IP address. Up to this point I've always made edits anonymously, but now due to these strange deletions I'm forced to create this user account.

--Elevencontortionist (talk) 12:02, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

This appears to be a content issue, please take your concerns to Talk:Kievan Rus'. Sam Walton (talk) 12:19, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• A complaint that is totally without merit, and outside the scope of ANI since it's a content dispute. There's also a discussion on Talk:Kievan Rus' about it, which makes this complaint forum shopping. The OP, a brand new account with no contributions outside this ANI-complaint and notifications about it, is obviously connected to an IP that has been edit-warring to get irrelevant material into the article, edits that have been reverted by three experienced users, and has led to the article being protected by Alex Bakharev. Since other editors have also reverted the IP/OP, not just me, I see no reason for only including me in this complaint, so I'll ping Iryna Harpy and Altenmann too. And I suggest someone close this, and serve the OP a trout. Thomas.W 12:28, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

False accusations of being a sock

Dondervogel 2 keeps on making false accusations of being a sock while reverting my changes. S/he doesn't engage on the talk page. Please help because these constant accusations make it really hard to try to engage in good faith discussions.Glider87 (talk) 17:10, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

S/hw was warned before that it's a personal attack and I had hoped the person would engage in talk but they reverted back to their pattern of refusing to talk and just reverting with sock accusations.Glider87 (talk) 17:26, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Even after User:Arthur_Rubin tried to help the person Dondervogel 2 still kept on using "sock" personal attacks to revert without talking.Glider87 (talk) 17:45, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Legal threats on Talk:Ketchapp

77.207.173.119 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

An IP claiming to be the CEO of Ketchapp has asked at Talk:Ketchapp that Misplaced Pages "remove Ketchapp page because all information are incorrect" and has added that "We will take legal actions if necessary against Misplaced Pages." --McGeddon (talk) 19:25, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

The IP is User:77.207.173.119. Also note that he was warned after making that threat on his own talk page, which I deleted. 99.53.112.186 (talk) 19:33, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I'll check the sourcing to verify that there isn't a legitimate concern here. ~ Rob 19:35, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I can see why the company wants to suppress this, but it's been widely reported that they're stealing the ideas of developers, and all claims in the article have been sourced. I've done some tweaking to achieve more neutral language, and there's probably a little more work to be done to comply with WP:NPOV, but there are no unsourced negative statements in that article. ~ Rob 19:46, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Agreed; the article seems reliably sourced, and your efforts are much appreciated, Rob. If this IP (who probably is the CEO; why would someone pretend to be him?) keeps it up, he should be blocked per policy. North of Eden (talk) 19:52, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I did discover a somewhat significant inaccuracy in the article. A blockquote was previously placed in the article with a citation that was allegedly from a developer whose game was stolen. The citation supported that the developer did claim the game was stolen, but the specific quote, which was strongly worded, was nowhere in the citation. I've removed the quote and reworded that section. I'm not sure whether this matters when it comes to the legal threats, but there was somewhat of a legitimate issue here. ~ Rob 19:59, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• That sounds good. Perhaps it will allay the IP's concerns. North of Eden (talk) 20:03, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

@BU Rob13: I think you're talking about the one I added. It was referenced by the source I included. This post is where I got the quote from. Anarchyte 00:09, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Without such a negative quote or claim being thoroughly covered by reliable secondary sources, including a statement as strong as "a ripoff" provides undue weight to that view, in my opinion. The actual source you cited in the article did not include the quote. This can be covered on the talk page, though, rather than ANI. ~ Rob 00:19, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

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