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- RM, The Holocaust -> Holocaust, Not moved, 30 January 2007, Talk:The Holocaust/Archive 13#Requested move
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Doesn't take a broad enough view of the origins of the Holocaust
The 'origins' section of this article, though detailed and straight forward, focuses too much on the eugenic motivations of the genocide and largely fails to mention major socio-political factors which were also integral to the reasoning of the major perpetrators, for instance the stab in the back myth and the concept of Jewish Bolshevism. Other genocide articles such as that for the Armenian and Rwandan genocides have 'background' sections which establish a time line of sorts of increasing tension and racism, often making reference to several specific events. A suggestion for how this could look in this article is 'antisemitism in Europe' (which may mention eugenics and the volkisch movement) then 'world war 1' (which could make reference to the notorious german military 'account on Jews') then 'stab in the back myth and German Revolution' (both important in the development of the 'jewish Bolshevism' canard) then 'rise of the nazi party' before continuing the article as it is.
These are simply suggestions, and I don't expect everyone or indeed anyone to take them up. However, I just think there should be some major restructuring of this section.
Regards Aardwolf A380 (talk) 23:11, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
Jewish resistance section paraphrasing the views of a death camp commander
The section on Jewish resistance provides the views of SS officer and death camp commander Franz Stangl. The excerpt reads "Franz Stangl, who had commanded two death camps, was asked in a West German prison about his reaction to the Jewish victims. He said that only recently he had read a book about lemmings. It reminded him of Treblinka." Wouldn't it be more desirable for Misplaced Pages to have a more neutral and impartial viewpoint on the behaviour of the Jewish victims than the viewpoint of a death camp commander? I think this last section, with its inflammatory reference to "lemmings" (a reference, it would appear, to the false claim that lemmings commit mass suicide) could be removed from the section of quotations.OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 02:19, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- If the quote was good enough for Raul Hilberg, I'm quite sure it's good enough for Misplaced Pages. --YeOldeGentleman (talk) 23:35, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
Questions
How is the German for an obscure term like Trawniki of any use to anyone? The article is bloated enough as it is, let alone with pointless German translations like Trawnikimänner in it. And why is Hollande's opinion still in this article? His views should be on his own page, not cluttering up this one. --YeOldeGentleman (talk) 23:34, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
Origin of the word genocide.
In the "Uniqueness" section, it says "The term genocide was coined as a crime against humanity in 1943 by Polish Jewish lawyer Raphael Lemkin to describe the systematic extermination of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire at the start of the 20th century in what would become known as the Armenian Genocide. Lemkin based the definition of genocide on the Armenian genocide.". But the sources being cited don't exactly back this up. In fact, in some ways they are explicitly contradictory of this. It seems that the word Genocide was actually coined to describe the actions of the Nazis. "In 1944, Lemkin wrote a book about the Nazis. In it, he combined the Greek "genos" for race with the Latin "-cide" for killing: Genocide. Lemkin had named the crime he spent a lifetime trying to prevent.... Taking hundreds of pages of Nazi laws and decrees, Lemkin wrote a comprehensive book that laid bare the Nazis' brutal plans. And he invented a word for the crime the Nazis were committing. Genocide."(from Citation 451). It seems that, while coining the term to describe the actions of the Nazi party, he perhaps used the Armenian Genocide as an example of the type of behavior he was talking about, as evidenced by "...when Raphael Lemkin coined the word genocide in 1944 he cited the 1915 annihilation of Armenians as a seminal example of genocide" (Auron) but this doesn't actually say that the word was coined to describe said annihilation of Armenians, but rather that it was another example of the word being coined in reference to something else (Note the use of "a seminal example" rather than "the seminal example". Either way, given the specificity of the wording in the sources, to say that the term was coined specifically to describe the Armenian Genocide would, I believe, be WP:SYNTH since at least one of the sources being cited explicitly states that it was coined to describe the actions of the Nazis, and none of them, as far as I can tell, specifically say it was coined to describe the Armenian genocide. UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 21:45, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
Holocaustic?
The Holocaustic? Is that even a word? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:601:8C00:EE:5D18:D9F2:629B:2D69 (talk) 05:17, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- No, why? --jpgordon 19:53, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
It is on the search bar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:601:8C00:EE:5D18:D9F2:629B:2D69 (talk) 02:26, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
Perpetrators
The second paragraph states: "Between 100,000 and 500,000 people were direct participants in the planning and execution of the Holocaust.” Reference is to: Radcliff, Pamela. "Interpreting the 20th Century: The Struggle Over Democracy" (PDF). Chantilly, Virginia: The Great Courses. pp. 104–107. This turns out be be from a course outline without any other reference.
Perhaps the latest reference to the number of perpetrators gives an estimate of "200,000 Holocaust perpetrators” (reported in Dan Stone p. 109)
If there is no opposition, I propose to change the figures and reference in the next couple of days. Joel Mc (talk) 11:01, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
References
- Stone, Dan (2011). Histories of the Holocaust. Oxford New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-956679-2.
"54% Protestant, 40% Catholic, 3.5% Deists... 1.5% irreligious"
Protestants and Catholics are Christians. Huritisho 18:18, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
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