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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 68.117.211.92 (talk) at 19:04, 29 October 2004. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

"In modern western society, few wear clothing generally associated with female gender roles." I thought this was so in all societies, not just western. Are there modern societies where the men <a href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=1&k=cross%20dress" onmouseover="window.status='cross-dress'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=; return true;">cross-dress</a>? Jay 15:18, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The above quote should say "In modern western society, few men wear clothing generally associated with western female gender roles"

Why is does this page use the word "sex" not "gender"? --(talk to)BozMo 13:56, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

According to the Concise Oxford English Dictionary the word Gender means the grammatical classification of nouns into different sexes. Therefore Sex is the correct word to describe particular characteristics of men and women. Gender is often incorrectly used as a euphemism for the word sex. --Cap 18:35, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

POV: "it is estimated that one in 100,000 people are men who have been born without a typical male physiology (that is, they are transgendered or transsexual men)," This is deceptive and misleading, non-intersex ftm transexuals are not born with any sort of male anatomy, typical or otherwise. It should be enough to say that some females consider themselves men and let the reader decide if they consider that to be valid, not preach transgender identity politics at them in what is supposed to be a neutral article. I'm re-reverting.

Are you quite sure you do not write from a POV yourself? First, the article does not state that transmen are born with any distinctive male anatomy. Second, to claim that transmen are "females" is not exactly NPOV, either. So try for neutrality yourself, sign your comments, and don't insert some funny "mouseover" bits into other peoples edits here. Revert. -- AlexR 05:39, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

saying that non-intersex transmen are female is not POV it is biological reality, they (at birth) have ovaries and a vagina, (whether or not a transman who has chosen to have bottom surgery is female is open to interpretation, which is why I said "born with standard female anatomies" in the article) They may not be feminine or self-identify as women but they are female, thats why they are transgendered not cisgendered. The article says they are not born with typical male anatomy, but neglects to mention that they are born with typical female anatomy, thats not giving the reader the whole story. What's a "mouseover"?

Nope, sorry, but female includes not just a female body, but also a female gender identity. Claiming that transmen are "female" therefore denies their gender identity and turns them into some sort of freaks or sickos. What you want to express is "female bodied persons" not "females". Also, if you feel that there is information lacking, insert it, but don't insert heteronormative prejudices and then whine about POV.

As for constantling inserting mouse-overs: Check this . You ought to notice what happens when you edit. Stop it. -- AlexR 17:44, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Are you sure about this? If the word "female" is used, without any other modifier (like identity), doesn't it refer to physiology by default, just as with any animal species? In other words, biologists might say male/female refer to sex, and other social behaviors, identities, feelings, etc. involve gender or sexual identity (masculine/feminine behaviors, etc). Perhaps I am wrong, but this is how I understand it. DanP 18:14, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Plus, I specifically said "people born with standard female anatomy" in the article, (though female bodied is just as good I suppose) and YOU are the one saying that a female person who self identifies as a man is a sicko or freak, NOT me, so please stop whining about supposed heteronormative prejudice.