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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by DanP (talk | contribs) at 23:24, 29 October 2004 (Thoughts on terminology). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

"In modern western society, few wear clothing generally associated with female gender roles." I thought this was so in all societies, not just western. Are there modern societies where the men cross dress? Jay 15:18, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The above quote should say "In modern western society, few men wear clothing generally associated with western female gender roles"

Why is does this page use the word "sex" not "gender"? --(talk to)BozMo 13:56, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

According to the Concise Oxford English Dictionary the word Gender means the grammatical classification of nouns into different sexes. Therefore Sex is the correct word to describe particular characteristics of men and women. Gender is often incorrectly used as a euphemism for the word sex. --Cap 18:35, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Errr... you might consider that use "incorrect", however it is definitely common, especially since a distinction between physical sex and gender (identity, role, presentation etc) is definitely needed. The fact that a dictionary (even an Oxford one) does not list a meaning does not mean that meaning of a word does not exist. This is particularly true if it is a "concise" dictionary. Even the OED, not particular up-to-date with words in that field (transgender does not exist there), lists that use, even if it labeles it as "modern" and "especially feminist". Oh well, nothing is perfect. Not even Oxford Dictionaries. -- AlexR 20:42, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

POV: "it is estimated that one in 100,000 people are men who have been born without a typical male physiology (that is, they are transgendered or transsexual men)," This is deceptive and misleading, non-intersex ftm transexuals are not born with any sort of male anatomy, typical or otherwise. It should be enough to say that some females consider themselves men and let the reader decide if they consider that to be valid, not preach transgender identity politics at them in what is supposed to be a neutral article. I'm re-reverting.

Are you quite sure you do not write from a POV yourself? First, the article does not state that transmen are born with any distinctive male anatomy. Second, to claim that transmen are "females" is not exactly NPOV, either. So try for neutrality yourself, sign your comments, and don't insert some funny "mouseover" bits into other peoples edits here. Revert. -- AlexR 05:39, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

saying that non-intersex transmen are female is not POV it is biological reality, they (at birth) have ovaries and a vagina, (whether or not a transman who has chosen to have bottom surgery is female is open to interpretation, which is why I said "born with standard female anatomies" in the article) They may not be feminine or self-identify as women but they are female, thats why they are transgendered not cisgendered. The article says they are not born with typical male anatomy, but neglects to mention that they are born with typical female anatomy, thats not giving the reader the whole story. What's a "mouseover"?

Nope, sorry, but female includes not just a female body, but also a female gender identity. Claiming that transmen are "female" therefore denies their gender identity and turns them into some sort of freaks or sickos. What you want to express is "female bodied persons" not "females". Also, if you feel that there is information lacking, insert it, but don't insert heteronormative prejudices and then whine about POV.

As for constantling inserting mouse-overs: Check this . You ought to notice what happens when you edit. Stop it. -- AlexR 17:44, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Are you sure about this? If the word "female" is used, without any other modifier (like identity), doesn't it refer to physiology by default, just as with any animal species? In other words, biologists might say male/female refer to sex, and other social behaviors, identities, feelings, etc. involve gender or sexual identity (masculine/feminine behaviors, etc). Perhaps I am wrong, but this is how I understand it. DanP 18:14, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Plus, I specifically said "people born with standard female anatomy" in the article, (though female bodied is just as good I suppose) and YOU are the one saying that a female person who self identifies as a man is a sicko or freak, NOT me, so please stop whining about supposed heteronormative prejudice. Also, I have no idea what happened to that first paragraph but I think I've fixed it.

68.117.211.92: You appear to be infected with some sort of spyware which automatically inserts URL <a href=>s around certain keywords; see for an example. Please cease editing until you've cleaned your system; I suggest you try running Adaware (it's free). -- Hadal 19:19, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"Female" can be rather often found refering to not just sex. From the OED:

• A. adj. I. Belonging to the sex which bears offspring.
• 1. a. of human beings. In Law: heir, line female. Also predicatively.
• II. Of or pertaining to those of this sex.
• 3. Composed or consisting of women, or of female animals or plants.
• 4. a. Of or pertaining to a woman or women.
• b. Engaged in or exercised by women.
• 5. Peculiar to or characteristic of womankind.

So obviously it does at least not unambigiously refer to physical characteristics only.

@68.x And kindly stop talking so much - sorry - bullshit. I never called transmen freaks or sickos, I was refering to the common prejudice that transmen are "really" females who are either crazy or sick, but in the end, definitely females, not males. A prejudice you tried to put into the article - whether consciously or by mistake - and which I tried to keep out of it -- after all, I happen to know what I am, and I am definitely not female, even if the physical attributes were. You might want to check my user page.

Having said that, the "without a typical male physiology" bit is indeed improvable. Your edis however did not just alter this sentence, you also simply deleted information and never gave any reason for that. Obviously, that merrited a revert. -- AlexR 20:42, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't fully understand the conflict at hand, and don't mean to misunderstand either of you. But the majority of the time male/female seem to be sex. Yes, there are other contexts. If a guy said "I'm a man wearing women's underwear", that doesn't mean he changed identity or sex or anything. Maybe the guy is kinky or just involved in role-playing, and one can take words at face value. I don't know that man/woman or male/female can automatically be cast into "but what if it's a biological man, who wants to be a woman, but dresses like a whatever". That seems like extension by social construct to me, not biological fact which seems to be a slightly more common meaning with more adjectives tacked on to the words "male" and "female". But I guess I am flexible on exact meaning so long as the reader gets the picture accurately and nobody feels excluded somehow. DanP 23:24, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)