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Convoluted terminology

I'm being told that I should post some comments and issues regarding changes to the structure here.

I'm discovering a slew of convoluted terminology surrounding the entire section of sex abuse, child sex abuse, child sexuality, pedophilia, sex offenders, criminal/law terms vs. psychological and sociological terms, categories, etc.

The most blaring example is that Child grooming is under both the categories: Category:Child sex offender and Category:Friendship. That to me is just hilarious. It shows that we're having a hell of a time trying to differentiate terminology. Child Grooming is not a criminal offence nor does it deal with law or abuse, thus should not be under "child sex offender". Grooming can be good OR bad. It depends on the intent of the individual. One can groom their child to become a Protestant or a Christian or a Satanist, for example. The article, as I originally found it, assumed that the only type of grooming was that of a child molester seeking sex with children. It was quite biased, and so was the category(s) it was in, IMO, so I changed it.

(Then, I found out the guy who told me to post here reverted it back.)

Then, I found the same thing is happening with Sex offender, child sex abuse, Category:Sex crimes, Category:Child sex offenders. There's more than one type of sex offender than someone who breaks the law with a kid. Also, child sex offenders were moved to the child abuse page, when they should be under their own section because the term deals with the person, not the offense. Homosexuality used to be considered a criminal sex offense for instance, but that's not the case these days. Pedophilia is also under the same scrutiny, currently. It's important that in order to remain NPOV we properly categorize these terms. Do we really need a whole category specifically for Child Sex Offenders, listing them out one by one? And why is Category:Child sexual abuse Listed amongst the other two categories when the other two talk about legal terms, not psychological.

Why is Category:Childlove listed as a subcategory of Category:Child sexual abuse? The whole point of the childlove movement is that their claim is it's not abuse. It should be listed under Category:Pedophilia which in turn should be NOT under Category:Paraphilia but rather Category:Human Sexuality, parallel to paraphilia, and THOSE should be under Category:Biology, Category:Psychology.

"sex offender" ties psychology with criminal acts; "criminal" meaning "illegal", but not necessarily immoral. Thus, I move that all terms dealing with tying an offense in with psychology be placed under Category:Criminology or a subcategory under that called Category:Criminal Psychology.

I also move that a special project section be put underway for this subject. This really needs to be sorted out in a way where the POV can finally be put to an end. It's really become a huge mess of pages and categories not really pointing to any root basis.

I could go on and on and on, but I'll stop here for sanity's sake. --Rookiee 16:55, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Yay! Someone who wants to finally start a critical discussion on this talk page. I agree with the categorization concerns you have. The more that people can talk on these discussion pages, the more that we can build some consensus for changing the scope and organization of these articles.

I'm tired of hearing the rote explanations of these issues by those who wish to hide behind technical guild language. The world is much deeper than that. They are just in their own little world. They think that the world must revolve around their ideas - and they believe that somehow that's NPOV. -- Rainbird 17:13, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for explicating some of these issues. Regarding Category:Pedophilia and Category:Child sexual abuse. Per the discussion in Category:Pedophilia, that category only covers the sexual attraction to children. Articles which deal with acting on that attraction go to Category:Child sexual abuse. While advocates of Childlove do not think that having sex with children is abusive, the rest of the world thinks differently and we are obliged to give the dominant POV the primary position. I reverted your changes because they were major and unexplained. -Willmcw 20:08, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

No prob. Actually, slight correction(s) to be made to your statement...

• "While advocates of Childlove do not think that having sex with children is abusive"

This is only partially true. A) There are many in the Childlove community who do not advocate that sex with children is a good thing. This is a huge debate going on amongst CLs. You got one side saying that other forms of romantic love are ok, but sex isn't. B) Those CLs that do think sex with kids is ok, most in the CL communities do agree that there can definately be abusive forms of sex, as it pertains to age, social maturity, physical maturity, culture, etc.. I personally do not advocate an active sexual relationship with kids with how society stands today. In the face of a society that can't handle even homosexuality, yes, a sexual relationship can be heartbreaking, and traumatizing, other than very rare cases where things turn out alright. Those cases are very, very rare. Even if the relationship is purely loving and free, if the two are found out, the consequences could bring horrible damage to the two of them. This is touched on in the boylove code of ethics on Paiderastria.

However, what I do NOT agree with is the villanization of tens of thousands of people who simply have an attraction that does not agree with society. Witchhunting is witchunting. The "child grooming" issue, for example. That is an example of a term that has been twisted and convoluted to such an extent that not even you weren't aware of its original connotation (which had been around for a good couple hundred years other than the current hysteria. The term, as it is used widely today in the US and UK is not a long-standing definition, but yet it's taken such precedence in the mainstream, it's completely overwritten the true meaning. Child grooming = molding. Incidentally, "molding children" is is something I don't agree in, morally speaking. I believe children should be allowed to be whatever they want to be, live how they want to live, and not have to live up to their parents' expectations in life. (And this coming from an evil pedophile.. ooooh..)

• "we are obliged to give the dominant POV the primary position"

Primary to who? I contest this. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be NPOV. "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

• "I reverted your changes because they were major and unexplained."

I was creating new articles for ones that were previously clumped together. How is that major? Is there a rule for this or is the decision arbitrary by whoever decides they don't like the changes?

The changes I made to child grooming were hardly major. I kept all references to the arguments made about child grooming in the sexual sense of the word, and I listed the opinions contesting the arguments. Why was this removed? The article, before I touched it, was very one-sided and incomplete in its definition. --Rookiee 02:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

This passage makes no sense: "Also, in cases of multi-generational relationships where both parties are legal adults, such relationships are still often widely considered immoral and taboo, even though legal. Such relationships often result in humorous anecdotes or parodies, and in some more severe cases, social abolishment." If both parties are legal adults, there is no child sexual abuse going on, obviously, so this either needs to be deleted or clarified. KathL 05:49, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Simple consent

I've seen this red link in a few of the articles I've perused today and was hoping I might coax somebody with more knowledge of the subject to write a small article on it. I think it would be useful. Thought this might be the best place to ask. --DanielCD 17:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Refs

Some of the author names in the refs section are a little confusing, like "Juliette D. G. Goldman". Is this one name or did something get deleted somewhere? The last names should go first and those used to alphabetize. I believe they should be in alphabetical order. Just some housekeeping if anyone is interested... --DanielCD 15:30, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Definition

Also, somewhat down in the article: "adult forces or coerces sex on a prepubescent minor" is given as a simple definition. However, there are many times where the child actually freely engages the activity, being "led" into it gently rather than being coerced. Other times they can be passive, not taking part, but not resisting either (they may be confused, not sure what's going on or what to do as it's outside the realm of their experience). The child is unaware of the gravity or consequences of what's happening and may treat it like any new experience, though, unknown to the child, the psychological consequences of the abuse will surface later.

This is not addressing the question of whether such abuse is always harmful. Even if there are cases where it ends up not causing any harm, the question is really not relevant to the question of the abusive nature of the adult's actions, as the abuser can never know the effects beforehand, and hence the idea that "it doesnt always cause harm" can't excuse any action of this type. Even if the child is not coerced in any way and seems unaffected, it will take time to see the real effects.

The lack of coercion or force does not make it any less abuse and the def should likely be amended in this regard. I didn't make any change to it though as I want to see what others think. I didn't read the whole article word for word and may have missed something. --DanielCD 15:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Actual cause of harm

I refuse to unquestioningly believe that sexual stimulation in and of itself necessarily harms the psyche of minors and tend to think that factors which tend to or necessarily accompany molestation, including an inevitable power imbalance which would be particularly present for prepubescents, are more to blame for actual damage to the child's psychological condition. I also think that the kind of parental negligence and poor parent-child communication which would allow molestation to pass unnoticed for a number of years probably has as much to do with psychological maladjustment as the actions of the offender. Other than the clear and present power imbalance, I wouldn't think that the psychological effect of sexuality on minors would differ much from the effect of the parallel acts on adults ranging from unwanted advances, aggressive seduction, rape, exploitation of impaired or uninformed judgement, and secrecy, which I may need to remind some of you are, together, both far and away more likely than informed and open consent except under particularly strange circumstances and quite detrimental enough to satisfy one's desire to find legitimate fault in the behavior. Personally, I think the fact that people react emotionally and vengefully to the very idea of child-adult sex is deplorable, and I think that more time should be spent rationally examining the links between molestation and its consequences and working out how to improve the lot of the kids. Too much time is spent hating the offender, and too little is invested in figuring out what to do with the kids.

On that note, the inability of some people to tell the difference between a mere deviant who just got caught porking a sixth-grader and a jerk who regularly beats and rapes his eleven year old step-daughter during drunken rages is also disturbing. One needs a psychiatrist, and the other needs a bullet; work out for yourself which is which, and attempt not to confound the two in the future. Disturbing as you might find the deviant, it's as unjust and malproductive to say that the deviant is as guilty as the abuser as it would be to say that the abuser is as innocent as the deviant, and there are obvious reasons that they should be treated differently from one another. If nothing else, we'd be freer to steamroll the real scum.

Returning to my original point, more fully understanding the actual reasons for the harmful consequences of molestation would make us more able to provide adequate treatment for the kids themselves. I honestly think that, if the subject is examined closely enough, we'll discover that having one's first orgasm at eight isn't going to turn one suicidal six years later all by itself.

Anonymous Bastard #1, aka 4.88.2.115 11:02, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I was sexually abused myself, and I can personally say that you are right and wrong. Studies have shown sexual stimulation in childhood has led to brain damage of several functions of the brain, yet, I do think there is way to much stigma surrounding kids and sexual experimentation as well. Science has proven you very wrong, nonetheless. I think the stigma surrounding girls who have the physical development, say around 15 or so, can be a little stupid. I am also an advocate that younger sexual education would help reduce sexual abuse significantly. --202.164.193.221 05:43, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Can you cite these studies? It would be interesting to count the number of times I brain-damaged myself before I reached the age of consent....St. Jimmy 20:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

There have also been arguements that there is NOT a clear and viewable power imbalance between adults and children. In the case of parents and children, that might be the case, however most parents have trouble getting their children to clean their rooms, so it doesn't follow that they would be able to force them into sex. Also, having an orgasm or sexual experience at an early age does NOT lead to suicide or mental illness, you are correct on that. The usual things that lead to suicide or mental illness are problems with the brains of the people with the mental illness, so the mental illness would manifest itself whether the person was sexually abused or not. Also, some people do not agree with the designation of pedophiles as 'deviants'. We have been around since the beginning of time, and probably when we were still rat-like mammals. That makes us not deviants, but a known offshoot of regular, socially condoned sexuality. Christopher1 3:20 February 3, 2006

POV title

The title is POV (biased). The term and concept of "Child sexual abuse" should be dealt with in an article lacking a POV title. Or else only the use of the term should be in an article with the title "Child sexual abuse". Discussing behavior that in some cultures is not "abuse" should not be in an article with "abuse" in its title. Imagine if Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy were entitled Freedom of expression abuse ? WAS 4.250 18:50, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

That's absurd. People have different ideas about what constitutes abuse, and no definition could be complete without some such discussion. I completely fail to see how the provided examples apply. It would be nice if everything was convenient and tidy, but the world isn't so clean cut. --DanielCD 19:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

In a nutshell, what's being asked for here is an a priori definition of CSA. Mental constructs aren't going to exist prior to human experience. And to say we can't discuss the varieties of human experience regarding the issue... Whose definition are we going to use? --DanielCD 19:12, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I tend to agree, insofar as this article is about the issue of sexual contact between adults and minors in general as opposed to just the phenomenon of CSA as it is currently treated by Western psychology. The DSM-IV's broad definition of CSA as all sexual contact between individuals under 18 and legal adults certainly deserves mention as it has been widely used in the reasearch and treatment of CSA, but probably isn't the best title, in part because its claims are disputed by some western psychologists, but more importantly because it ignores the importance of cultural context. General opinion about the age at which an individual is ready to engage in sexual activity varies widely between cultures, and is perhaps the most important factor in determining whether an act that DSM-IV would define as CSA is actually abusive. In Japan, for example, adult men are expected to be attracted to pubescent girls, and the taboo against ephebophilia there is very weak by comparison to that in the US. I vaguely recall a poll of japanese girls aged 12-14 that asked if they found anything wrong with girls of their age group prostituting themselves to older men (a phenomenon known as "compromised dating") and got a 20% "no" result. Given this cultural difference a psychologist would be wrong to use the DSM-IV's definition of CSA in treating a Japanese adolescent. What's especially bothersome is the article's own lack of regard for cultural context, and implicit acceptance of the DSM's definition: "On the other hand, on the Isle of Alor, it was discovered that parents were masturbating their children and referring to it as a natural way of relieving their children's tensions. The Alorese exhibit a number of psychological symptoms many connect to the sexual abuse." (No citation.) A title change won't fix this; the article needs a rewrite. However, as this subject has a capacity to ruffle feathers exceeded only by the likes of Muhammad and Holocaust Denial, I intend to tread softly. Comments would be appreciated. 68.46.108.208 04:53, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

-Sorry, wasn't logged in. That was me. Sammy1339 04:56, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Controversy over effects

I added sorely missing references relating to the issue of whether CSA is by nature harmful. The original gave the impression that no such issue existed. I tried to make the edit as NPOV as possible, but any discussion of the subject is bound to offend somebody. Also, the transition to the next paragraph is choppy. Really the edit I made belongs in its own "controversy" section, like many other articles have, but I knew that doing that would be guaranteed to piss many people off, so I just replaced the ridiculously short, biased, and inaccurate mention of controversy with a larger paragraph.

Sources required for help

I believe that sources (web based and book based) should be quoted for recovery methods from childhood sexual abuse. eg forums, workbooks, standard texts. Have not added at the moment. suggestions www.RAINN.org, Courage to Heal Book, unsure whether this is standard for articles in Misplaced Pages.

Sources

We need to add sources for content in this article ASAP. This subject is too contraversial to allow unsourced content. I suggest we set a date, let's say 2 weeks from now, to have sources or the content is removed to the talk page. Other opinions welcome : ) FloNight 15:26, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. --DanielCD 15:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

What you said. Herostratus 04:00, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Ima tag it, K? Herostratus

Good, you added the tag. I meant to ask you about it. FloNight 05:26, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Second paragraph refactoring

I'm refactoring the second paragraph, and I can't fit it all in an edit summary, so. Here's the original paragraph:

It has a special status among forms of abuse, because it includes not only

• a) what is considered sexual abuse between adults, but also
• b) all forms of sexual activity involving children and adults as partners, even if a child gives simple consent (see Definition based on Informed Consent).

Problems with this paragraph:

• General formatting.
• The reference is pretty much a non-sequiter, it describes doctor-patient relationships and and does not well define the concepts of "simple consent" and "informed consent". Out it goes.
• The internal link Definition based on Informed Consent is broken, as Sexual abuse no longer has (if it did) a section called "Definition based on Informed Consent". (This is one reason why linking to article sections is to be avoided if possible). Out it goes.
• Ditto, the link to sexual abuse goes to a non-existant section. Delinkified.
• The link for "simple consent" goes to a page at the IPCE (International Pedophile and Child Emancipation) site. It does give a fairly good definition of simple vs. informed consent, but it's also a long convoluted article for a definition, and its also (I would gather) a POV site, which is fine for a citation but problematical for a definition. What's needed here is a good internal Wiki definition, which there is not, although the articles Informed consent, Consent, and Consent (criminal) discuss this somewhat. So, since there's no handy definition for simple consent, and the passage "even if a child gives simple consent" is a level of detail that doesn't really need to be in the opening section, out it goes.
• As to "It has a special status...". It doesn't really have a special status, it's a form of status offense, an age-related offense (underage drinking drinking, driving, etc.), of which there are many. Status offense have their corollary in what I guess would be called "child protection laws" -- it's a status offense for a minor to drink alcohol; it's a child protection law (or whatever) that you can't give alcohol to a minor. That's law-talk; what the editor is trying to say (I think) is that it's special among forms of sexual abuse. But there aren't that many forms of sexual abuse anyway. So I reworded it somewhat.

Thus giving us:

It is different from other forms of sexual abuse, because it includes not only what would be considered sexual abuse between adults, but also forms of sexual activity between children and adults that would not be considered abusive if performed by two consenting adults.

which can be condensed with no loss to:

It is different from other forms of sexual abuse in that it includes forms of sexual activity between children and adults that would not be considered abusive if performed by two consenting adults. Herostratus 03:57, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Herostratus, you have a very very keen mind. I'm going to try to help out and may have some space to cite my additions etc. tomorrow. Great work, really. --DanielCD 04:11, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Excellent wording. FloNight 05:30, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Maturity

This is commonly characterized among psychologists as a "lack of maturity".

This way of putting it is, I think, rather too simplistic. The lack of "maturity" is generally confined to certain aspects of the personality, not to the entire person. I'll try to suggest something soon. Comments very welcome. --DanielCD 22:07, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Objection to homosexuality

Pederasty in the Islamic lands - this article has some info on this, but I haven't looked at it in relation to the statement I've so far failed to cite. --DanielCD 19:19, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

There are other societies, however, in which adult/adult homosexuality is considered criminally and morally offensive behavior, but child/adult heterosexual relations are viewed as acceptable. In Arab societies, due to the taboos regarding man-woman contacts, aspects of homosexuality between men and boys has historically had some cultural acceptance.

I removed this from the article for now. I think this small section needs some rethinking. Any comments/opinions welcome. --DanielCD 19:33, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Innocence of children

This section is a little odd as well. There is a large discussion out there about the idea of "innocence" and how it has changed over the centuries. Is this idea a modern invention, a product of the Victorian age? It may be dealing more with affect than a real construct (it may be more of a sentimentality than a reality). Or is it? --DanielCD 19:36, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Is there physical evidence?

How does someone, such as a doctor, tell that a child's been sexually abused? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spacegirl92 (talk • contribs)

Sometimes: http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic369.htm 24.224.153.40 01:53, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

re: Djac75 April 11 edits

• First edit was to remove link to When Are We Crossing A Child's Sexual Boundaries? with edit summary "Wierd, radical, controversial agenda...".
  • They look to be a pretty normal, if conservative (but not ultra-conservative or religious), group. I didn't see anything weird or radical on the site. They may be controversial, but what isn't nowadays. Reverted.
• Second edit was some language changes, including putting scare quotes on the word "victim".
  • Sorry, we don't need scare quotes, OK? Reverted.
• Third edit was OK I guess, IIRC.
  • But whether the multiple-edits deal was a ploy to make reversion more difficult or not, we don't have the time to pick through everything of a mostly-revertable edit session, so that got reverted too. Herostratus 21:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

i hope i'm not the only one who thinks "i was too lazy to read the edit" is a really bad reason to revert something. --dan 20:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Djac75 that http://www.wethechildren.com/boundriesenglish.htm is a very weird, radical, controversial agenda and that linking to it probably isn't a good thing. For example, saying "If the parent must wash the child’s hair, the child should wear underwear in the tub" is just neurotic, and it's the height of hypocrisy for them to say on the very same page "Parents should never insinuate that sex or the human body is bad, dirty or nasty" when that's what they've been doing the whole time.

Well put. These people don't understand a contradiction when it's staring them in the face. St. Jimmy 16:58, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

(Herostratus: I think you accidentally deleted some of your text ... Look at your edit here: ) Zebruh 06:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC) That's weird, I didn't do that. Huh, that's some random material from the article. Maybe I had it in the paste buffer and dropped it in by mistake or something. Anyway, it didn't belong there. No matter. Herostratus 07:30, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

If you don't like the scare quotes, delete them, but that's no reason to revert the whole edit. Pais 18:36, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

A lot of that stuff is inane, but valid opinion. It shouldn't be removed. 24.224.153.40 01:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Underwear? In the tub? Wow. Had to go look that up.... OK, what it says is, Hey, between the ages of 4 and 5 is a good time to stop bathing your kid nude, besides which he should be able to wash himself anyway, except maybe his hair. I mean, OK, maybe that's on the conservative side (I dunno), but neurotic? So hmmmmm the kid is no longer between 4 and 5, which means s/he's five (or older)... should Daddy be having Molly strip to wash her hair? I dunno... you don't want to be doing that when she's, say, eight, right? She'd feel a little funny, don't you think? So what's a good age to stop doing that? 4-5 sounds reasonable to me. A bit prudish they may be, but weird, radical, neurotic? I'm not seeing that... Also, one of the main pages is about how spanking is way wrong ("NO HUMAN BEING HAS THE RIGHT TO DEMEAN, HUMILIATE OR SHAME ANOTHER HUMAN BEING"). So it's not like we're talking Focus on the Family here, or something.

As to the other stuff, fine, whatever, that's cool, put it back if you want to (minus the scare quotes). Herostratus 19:24, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know that they are either liberal or conservative. I agree that "neurotic" is a good description though. St. Jimmy 04:41, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Erm, didn't see any neurosis. Herostratus

She'd feel funny because either society or her parents have taught her that nudity is shameful. Not cool. 24.224.153.40 01:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Hightly debatable. Maybe it is a trade-off (Civilization and its discontents and all that), but it could be just from being self-conscious beings. Anyway, kids develop their sense of bodily integrity and self-as-separate-from-the-parent during these years. You don't want to interfere with that. I mean, if you're postulating a complete re-ordering of civilization and human consciousness, maybe, sure, but why not postulate antigravity or something useful like that if you're gonna postulate. Herostratus 05:32, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I think their conclusions are laughable, and their credentials for offering them are non-existent (they are not psychiatrists or even pediatricians, but claim to have an MA (Probably in social work). Perhaps bathing in one's underwear is de rigueur where you live, but I think most people and all reputable mental health experts would find it rather creepy. This is not a serious link, IMO, but if the majority wants to keep it, I suppose it's not the end of the world. I just wonder why a much more professional and serious advocacy link, ETAY (Ethical Treatment for All Youth) was removed from the child abuse page. St. Jimmy 17:05, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, all of the criticism so far seems to focus on one small passage about the underwear. And they're not saying Bathe your child in her underwear, as you characterize it. I gather that they're saying bascially After your child is old enough to bathe herself, she still may need help washing her hair (I suppose because washing one's hair is the most difficult task of bathing, what with the soap getting in your eyes and all), maybe even up to age eight. You can wash someone's hair in a sink without removing any clothing, but I guess some people wash their child's hair in the shower, and I guess they're talking about that. And even if the child can just lean her head into the stream of water from the shower, you probably don't want her to do that with all her clothes on. Because they might well get wet, I would think. But its reasonable for her to keep her underpants on. You should be able to wash her hair without getting her underpants wet, or if they do get wet, she can change them, I guess. I mean it might be a little easier to have her remove her underpants to wash her hair, because then you don't have deal with the possibility of wet underpants. But on the other hand, they can just be hung to dry, so how much of a problem is that, really? And if the child is school-age, she's likely developing a sense of modesty. and so why compromise that when it's not necessary? She might not want to be naked in front of Daddy anymore, she might feel that that's babyish, and it might make her feel bad or funny, even though she might not understand why, or be able to form a cogent objection. This is my interpretation of what they're saying. I would be surprised if all mental heath experts would find this "creepy", and I can't think of a good reason why they would. ETAY I don't know about, but a quick check looks like they're more about sex between consenting teens, which is an interesting issue, but probably not that germane to this article. Herostratus 03:28, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like you are trying to make a plausible case why these people have some good parenting ideas: maybe you are right, maybe you aren't, but either way the debate does not belong in a "child sexual abuse" context but in a "parenting advice" context.St. Jimmy 04:27, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I dunno. The whole question of removing the link has been around whether the original remover's edit summary of ""Wierd, radical, controversial agenda..." was accurate. The sppropriateness of the subject matter hasn't been brought up before. It's probably marginal. The section linked to is "When are we crossing a child's sexual boundaries". It does seem more like parenting tips than not. Hmmm. Herostratus 03:17, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I just think people making up rules about when other people can see their kids naked is a little freaky. I don't think people like that necessarily have any more clue than the rest of us about what is or is not sexual abuse.St. Jimmy 04:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Erm, well, you should come down to my old neigborhood if you want to see some clueless parents. Heck, how about "don't fill the baby's bottle with Coca-Cola". "Letting your kid run wild and smacking him at random intervals is not parenting." "Parking your kid in front of the TV all day is not parenting." You'd be surprised at what people need to be told. Herostratus 13:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Sources II

Per Talk:Child sexual abuse#sources above, it's time and past to clean out the unsourced material. I'll start by ((fact)) tagging all the material, then shortly remove it if its not sourced, moving it the section Sources III - Removed Unsourced Material, below. Of course it'll also be in the page history.

Several passages are alreay ((fact))-tagged so I'll start with them. Herostratus 11:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Sources III:Removed Unsourced Material

The number of female offenders is unknown but is usually reported to be between 10% and 20%, although in some studies it was found to be as high as 70% due to concealment, double standards and social taboos about reporting female-perpetrated sex offenses. -- Removed Herostratus 12:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

On the Isle of Alor, it was discovered that parents were masturbating their children and referring to it as a natural way of relieving their children's tensions. The Alorese exhibit a number of psychological symptoms many connect to this activity. -- Removed Herostratus 12:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Most offenders are situational offenders (pseudopedophiles and pseudo-ephebophiles) rather than pedophiles or ephebophiles. -- Removed Herostratus 12:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC) (Although this seems fairly likely true, maybe return after sourcing. The following sentences pretty much just expand on this, so removing just this sentence is maybe problematical.)

However, many of these critics fail to note the differences in societal sexual mores when arguing that other behavior is a useful guide for predicting response. -- Removed Herostratus 12:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC) (Not clear here if the tag was meant to apply to just this sentence or to all/part of the entire paragraph. To be sorted out.)

Some further argue that denying a minor the right to give informed consent ignores his or her right to sexual self-determination. -- Removed Herostratus 12:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

In 2006 deputy press secretary for the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Brian J. Doyle, was charged with using a computer to seduce a child. -- Removed Herostratus 18:00, 13 April 2006 (UTC) (Not removed for lack of sourcing but because I don't think that, as a rule, we should be publishing the names of people who have been charged but not convicted, granted that in this case everybody knows about him, but still, as a precedent, no.)

So are you saying that we should remove all of the charges against Scooter Libby too? Criminal charges are public information, and are readily verifiable. Anyway, I disagree with your reasoning but I agree with your conclusion. I had been thinking Doyle should be remoevd because he is not charged with any form of child sexual abuse. -Will Beback 19:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Fair point, but persons accused of child sexual abuse are sometimes treated with greater circumspection, since they might be lynched or whatever before their guilt is determined. But as you say, moot. Herostratus 09:22, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for motivating me, but please don't remove anything else yet. I'll try to work on it. 24.224.153.40 01:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Sure. I only removed the ((fact))-tagged stuff because two other editors besides myself had agreed that article has various problems and that removing unsourced material was a good idea, given the fraught nature of the subject, and we announced this on the talk page (see above) and waited a couple weeks. Plus the material removed is saved above, could be restored if source found (although you'd have to check the page history to find where it went.) Right, OK, I won't remove any more material for at least a week. Herostratus 09:22, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

plethysmography slides

This is from the abstract of a study:

The data suggest that 15 (68%) of the heterosexual pedophiles preferred fondling and mutual masturbation with children, while 7 others (32%) were more aroused by scenes depicting forced penetration (both digital and genital), contrary to their initial self-reports.

I don't understand what kind of slides they would use to ascertain this. Do they show the offenders child porn? 24.224.153.40 04:19, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

If you tell us which study it'd help. -Will Beback 05:28, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

"Aggression and erotic attraction toward children in incestuous and pedophilic men," Sexual Abuse: A Journal of Research and Treatment, 1(3), 417-441. I also read while searching for references that they show offenders pictures of prepubescent girls posed erotically. Weird. 24.224.153.40 01:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Re: last paragraph of section "Effects of sexual abuse on minors"

This was removed with a comment saying basically "the sources are talking about physical abuse, not sexual abuse". I'm not seeing that at all. The first source certainly includes non-sexual abuse, but not solely or even primarily, e.g.:

• "Slightly more than half reported having been abused physically or sexually, or both, as children. Compared with patients who reported no ill-treatment, average checklist scores were 38 percent greater in the patients with physical (but not sexual) abuse and 49 percent higher in the patients with sexual (but not other physical) mistreatment. Patients who acknowledged both physical and sexual abuse had average scores 113 percent higher than patients reporting none."
• "...research team sought to ascertain whether childhood physical, sexual or psychological abuse was associated with brain-wave abnormalities... Our findings dovetailed with a 1978 EEG study of adults who were victims of incest."
• "...compared MRI scans of 17 adult survivors of childhood physical or sexual abuse..."
• "...found left hippocampal abnormalities in 21 adult women who had been sexually abused as children..."

This is going less than halfway down in the article, I think that's plenty of examples. The second source I'm not able to access at this time, I don't know if it's down or my puter is cranky or what. Herostratus 06:44, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

last sentence of "Variation in cultural practices, norms and research findings"

"Because of the lack of a universal definition, the research on CSA is open both to personal biases of the researchers and of their critics."

Sheesh, there's at least three serious problems with that sentence:

• Is research on CSA "open to the personal biases of the researchers" significantly more that is the case of (say) research on the causes of poverty? Or research on the economic effects of tax cuts? Or research in any number of areas that are not hard science? If it isn't, it doesn't need to be said. If it is, please cite.
• Even if it can be verified that CSA research especially attracts or rewards third-rate researchers and slapdash research methods, is the cause the lack of a universal definition? Or is it something else -- lack of funding, relatively low salaries, lack of prestige, or whatever?
• And how, exactly, is the lack of "universal definition" a problem? In our articles on economics, we don't have "Some economists posit that a high savings rate is always desirable, but critics point out that 8th-century Baffin Islanders kept their savings in seal skins, and seal skins decay over time, so this cannot said to be universally true." "High mortage rates are generally believed to cause house prices to rise, but critics point out that European Lobsters (Homarus gammarus) do not have mortages, and indeed do not have homes, being simple sea-floor-dwelling arthopods of the family Nephropidae. So this doesn't apply to them and is thus not universally applicable." Obviously a researcher correlating (say) reported CSA levels with suicide rates for various current American states doesn't have to worry whether the definition of CSA she is using is valid for 3rd-Century Lusitania. Herostratus 08:01, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Last para. of "Variation in cultural practices, norms and research findings"

I'm not at all nuts about this entire section as written, but the last para. for starters seems quite unneccesary:

Last paragraph: "In some South Pacific island cultures, such as the Sambia of Papua New Guinea, one of the primary rituals of initiation for boys involves having them ingest semen, which they consider to be the literal essence of manhood. The boys obtain semen by fellating older boys who have already passed through the initiation. Upon initiation into higher stages, the roles are reversed, making the fellator the fellated. Ritual fellatio is somewhat common throughout southeastern Papua New Guinea but has been studied the most in the Sambia (Herdt 1982)."

• Err, what has this to do with the price of eggs? Its all very interesting I'm sure but how far off track do want to get here? Isn't this quite a bit too much detail for a topic that is at least mostly if not completely out of place in this article. Doesn't this belong in an article on Oceanic culture or Coming of age or something?
• The three citations make a nice little row, but the last two at least look suspicious (one is glbtq.com, the other globalgayz.com). Are these scholarly, neutral sources? That's not required for entries in the External links section, but for actual sources it's recommended. I'm not saying they're not OK but it needs to be checked.

"...sexual relationships between adolescent boys and adult men sanctioned by the state and sanctified by religion in ancient Greece and feudal Japan..."

• It's usually not a good sign when, without looking at the edit history, you know who made a particular edit (hi User:Haiduc!). This particular point has probably not been inserted into the article St. Louis Browns. But without checking, I can't be sure ("In 1954, the Browns moved to Baltimore and became the Orioles. The relationship between this and that fact that sexual relationships between adolescent boys and adult men were sanctioned by the state and sanctified by religion in ancient Greece and feudal Japan has not been studied and thus remains neither proven nor disproven..."'). (Just raggin' you User:Haiduc! You know I love ya!) Herostratus 13:28, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Removed more unsourced content

Removed sentence Sexual relations between adults and minors in western society remain controversial. It is unsourced and false. Sexual relations between adults and minors is illegal. This is clearly spelled out in law. Today western society openly discusses these cases instead of sweeping them under the rug. FloNight 21:13, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

But not everyone agrees with the current state of the law, e.g. the Matthew Koso case. That makes it controversial, and that should be reflected in some way. Can we figure out a better substitute for the deleted sentence? St. Jimmy 11:31, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

St. Jimmy, I think you are overstating the controversy. It is more about the type of punishment an adult should get for having sexual contact with a minor than if adult should have sexual contact with a minor. The debate is about the way that age of consent should be factored into the type of charges that are brought for sexual contact that is not "forced" but instead is "consensual." More now than before, people in western societies think adolescents should not have consensual sexual contact with adults. FloNight 13:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

You should be careful not to confuse the United States with western societies in general. In countries with lower ages of consent like Canada, the U.K., and Germany, no one bats an eyelash at the idea of a 16-year-old adolescent having consensual sexual contact with an adult. In the current climate in the U.S., on the other hand, many people think adolescents should not have consensual sexual contact with anyone at all of any age, not even other adolescents (cf. Bush's amusing "abstinence-only" approach to sex education). I wouldn't be surprised if the Republicans call for raising the age of consent in the U.S. to 35, and I wouldn't be surprised if opinion polls gave them 65% support if they did make such a call. Pais 15:55, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

That is hardly universal. Many people sympathize with Matthew Koso and Debra Lafave and didn't feel they should've been charged at all. Bill Maher actually celebrated it on his tv show when charges were dropped against Lafave. We shouldn't be quick to assume public opinion is settled on an issue with so many complexities. And Pais is correct that the U.S. is somewhat out of step with other Western democracies. (e.g. when the conservative party took over in Spain in 1996, they raised the age of consent from 12 all the way to 13.) St. Jimmy 18:17, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

if both consenting parties are under 16...

would it be considered child sexual abuse if both consenting parties were under 16? how about if one was slightly older than then other, so that for a short period one was 16 while the other was not, for that period is sexual intercourse illegal? would gender be an issue in conviction, ie, the male party is more liable? there are many myths such as these amongst teenagers discovering their sexuality, can anyone shed any light apon them? 20:54, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The laws on these matters vary considerably from one jurisdiction to the next. It is impossible to add material which would apply to everyone. -Will Beback 22:03, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you asking for the answers or suggesting they be added? JayW 23:41, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

'Citation needed' tags

The sheer amount of them after every modicum of statement is becoming laughable. Skinnyweed 16:34, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Entire article full of POV and unsourced or unverifiable material. Can see that some of you here have been doing a yeoman's job of work fixing it. Biggest remaining problems result from excessive confusion by some earlier author A)between legal facts/procedures and POV/advocacy, and B)between reputable medical/criminological studies and POV/non-scientific pseudo-studies. Decided to help by adding information on child sexual abuse from U.S. law that will serve as a base for article. Added a legal definition of child sexual abuse and an overview of types of penalties to the top of the article. Both clearly marked as relevant to U.S. treatment of child sexual abuse. Edited section on prohibited activities to clarify vagueness and standardize language vis à vis U.S. law. Moved some material from the preamble information above the index further down (info re: child sexual abuse different from rape of adult victim; in reported cases, males constitute majority of perps). Near bottom of article, titled section "Unsourced Material". More shortly.Volpe 03:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

This is not US-o-pedia. You're making the article centric and biased towards America. JayW 19:07, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Altered change which incorrectly qualified statement re law on adult/minor v. minor/minor sexual activity. Throughout US, laws differentiate between these two situations a priori. In some jurisdictions prosecutor can seek an exception, but this by no means true across the states.Volpe

Unsourced discussion

I removed this section from the main article, since it was both jarring to the reader (as in, disruptive to flow of article) and seemed extremely poor form to include this much unsourced info in the first place. Please reinsert with sources as they are found. --tjstrf 06:39, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

"The mainstream definition of child sexual abuse is predicated on whether minors are developmentally able to give informed consent, not just consent based on their feelings and expectations. Informed consent requires full cognitive understanding of one's own mind and the mind of the other person. The scientific evidence from psychological experiments, such as the Sally-Anne test, clearly show that full understanding does not develop until the end of puberty.

Critics of the mainstream definition counter that the focus on informed consent is a red herring. They believe the issue should be whether sexual relations involving simple consent are harmful. They believe they are not. They point to a long tradition of older men marrying young girls that is common across time and cultures, and also to pederasty (man/adolescent-male sexual relations), which was deemed acceptable in Ancient Greece, New Guinea, and feudal Japan. It is not clear whether the absence of informed consent is a predictor of harm."

Acts unwanted by adult

Can someone add information concerning sexual acts of a minor unto an adult who is unwilling to engage in or unable to stop such acts? i.e can a minor rape an adult or is the adult (even an incapacitated one) guilty of some crime? I see nothing in this article to clarify that.

Distinction between adults and minors

The article was inaccurate to make a blanket statement that adults involved with minors are treated differently than minors with minors. In Michigan, for example, all 17 year olds who commit serious felonies are tried in adult court automatically despite being "minors", and there is no "age buffer" law for first, second and third degree criminal sexual conduct. The number of minors who are waived to criminal court on these charges, be it automatically or with the consent of the judge, makes the statement inaccurate. I'm open to other ways of phrasing the sentence, but it has to be made clear that juveniles are on many occasions treated as harshly as adults in the same circumstances. St. Jimmy 17:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Statement at issue is as follows:However, state and federal laws ##may## treat an adult who performs sexual activity with a minor differently from two minors who perform sexual activity with each other. (your change marked off with # sign above.)

Your argument is: number of minors waived to criminal court makes statement inaccurate. However, the above statement is not one discussing prosecutorial process. The statement concerns the provisions of the laws themselves, and concerns the initial differentiation of acts performed by adults v. acts performed by minors. To clarify:

You claim there is no age buffer for CSC crimes; this is incorrect. Referring to MI Criminal Sexual Conduct Act MCL 750.520a et seq. ("CSC"), note that there is in fact a "Romeo exception" for CSC 1, 2, and 4. Spread is 5 years. CSC 3 is defined as penetration using force, which is why Romeo exception is not available for that crime. (I cover the minor/minor+FORCE situation in discussion of Romeo exception.) Treatment of CSC is therefore differentiated in Michigan depending on adult/minor vs. minor/minor contact.

Another example: "Person" is defined in MI law as an adult, and while CSC crimes are non-probationable for an adult , but probation is available for any minor accused of a felony. Further, MI Probate Code requires transfer of an accused minor under 17 to Family Court *unless* there is a waiver granted upon prosecutor's motion. Transfer to adult court is therefore *not* automatic by law. That prosecutors can intensify the treatment of a minor who uses force in performing sexual activity with another minor does not change the fact that the legal definitions begin with the laws themselves, which create a priori differences in scrutiny of adult/minor v. minor/minor sexual activity. I will deal with prosecution issues with respect to child sexual abuse in a later section of this article. Since the statement is correct as written, I am undoing your change. Volpe 00:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

With all respect, I graduated from a Michigan university with a B.A. in Criminal Justice, and I'm telling you, you misread the law. There is no age-buffer for CSC 1, 2, and 3; there is one for CSC 4. I'll give you the chance to go back and check, or to e-mail the Michigan prosecutor of your choice and ask before reverting, because I don't care to escalate this into a silly edit war. In Michigan a "person" who has consensual sex with a 15 year old is guilty of CSC 3. It is therefore prosecuted as CSC 3 even if the charges are held in juvenile court. I don't mean to be making a mountain out of a molehill, but neither do I want to minimize or ignore notable (some would say infamous) aspects of our anti-sex laws. St. Jimmy 01:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Simple Contradiction

This article (aside from being US centric/not reflecting a worldwide view) also has a very simple contradiction that needs some clarification. According to the article:

"In every state and federal jurisdiction of the United States, the law states that a minor cannot consent to sexual activity of any sort."

However, in some states the age of consent is lower at 16 or 17. The age of majority is 18 everywhere in the USA, so either in some states minors CAN consent to sexual activity or there is some federal law I don't know about. I've changed it to "under the age of consent". I think this is an important distinction; if it can mean the difference between being charged with a crime or not it is not trivial.--adamatari 15:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Regressed v. fixated offenders

The article currently reads "The great majority of offenders fit into the regressed category. Only between 2-10% percent of all offenders are fixated. (citation needed)". According to a study referred to here, 47% were classified as fixated, 53% regressed. --Kvaks 10:06, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

U.S. Defintition of child sexual abuse.

I tried to improve the section on the U.S, definition. I do realize that their are statements in the section that need citations and I will try to dig up the citation where I originally got the info from as soon as I can. I would suggest that this article should discuss the distinction that is often made between that sex abuse involving preteen victims and adult/teen sexual activies which may, depending on the age of consent qualify as statutory rape. --Cab88 09:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Gender differences and effects

I inserted the following text into the paragraph on gender differences:

Rind et al.(1998) showed that this difference was present in 59 college studies on the issue, showing that males who claimed that their abuse was consensual were not significantly less well adjusted than the norm.

Rind et al.(1998) should be mentioned in a discussion of gender differences in CSA. If there is not room for both studies to be cited, I suggest removing Wakefield and Underwager and leaving Rind et al. I am also planning on mentioning it's conclusions in the first paragraph of that section. Rind et al. concluded that most of the effects attributed to CSA could be accounted for by the confounding variable of family environment. ie. what we assume are damage based on sexual abuse is actually largely do to a poor family environment, physical abuse, and neglect. Crazywolf 00:50, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Rind gives a certain view of CSA, but it is a controversial paper. It would be better if we include more than that one report. -Will Beback 02:07, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

There hasn't been any valid critique laid against it. It's 'controversial' only because its findings contradict a widely-held prejudice. JayW 00:29, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I concur with JayW. St. Jimmy 14:40, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The wiki article describes in detail the criticisms of the paper's methodology. It's very clear that both Dallam and Rind have axes to grind, so it's difficult to read either critique or rebuttal as the voice of sweet reason. A criticism I've heard elsewhere but is not in the wiki article is the reliance on self-report of the component studies in Rind. So, no, I don't think the controversy is merely ideological.

DanB DanD 17:20, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

A think one cogent criticism of Rind is the sample being only college students. Rind handwaves this away, but it does matter. I mean, if you did of study of college students who (say) had their faces bitten off by feral dogs, you mind find that, eh, it's not so bad -- after all, all the persons in the study who had this happen made it to college, which a lot of people don't. Herostratus 01:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I added the other sentences to the first paragraph of the effects section that I mentioned. Beback reworded it to say that only one study supported the ideas I mentioned, since I only gave one citation. However, Rind et al. was a meta analysis of many studies. So "some studies" is more appropriate than "one study." Crazywolf 04:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Sexual Abuse

From the sexual abuse article: Sexual abuse is defined by the forcing of undesired sexual acts by one person to another.

And yet "Child sexual abuse" is defined as any sexual contact whatsoever between a an adult and a minor (where "minor" differs from state to state and country to country anyway). It doesn't matter if the sex is consensual. It doesn't matter if the minor (again depending on juristiction) sees the sex as a completely positive experience. It doesn't even matter if the minor is on the eve of her 16th birthday in a place where the AOC is 16. It is still, bizarrely, classed as "abuse".

The term abuse is deliberately emotive, so that anyone breaking these taboos can be called an abuser. Any rational argument by the abuser can then be filed away as him/her "trying to justify their abuse". The same lame terms have been used to crush rational argument for decades.

If you look at the word "abuse" in the dictionary, and the adjective "abusive", anyone with a brain can see the vast gulf of difference between the legal terminology and the reality. A case of sex between a minor and an adult is automatically classed as child sexual abuse even if the case is not abusive in any respect.

The real issue is the legal AOC itself and, on a deeper level, the FALSE but immensely popular idea that a "minor" (a classification which varies depending on AOC in different countries) cannot enjoy any sexual contact with an adult without it being "abuse".

As somebody sexually "abused" (see the loaded term?) in my own childhood, I KNOW this to be utterly false. My sexual experiences did not damage me in the slightest, although the aftermath did, once various witch-hunting adults became involved. I practically had to withstand a form of brainwashing that I'd been the victim of a hideous assault, when in fact everything had been consensual.

Until the assumption of harm is removed, until children are emancipated to explore sexual experiences with whoever they choose, and until arbitrary AOC laws are abolished in favour of laws only against forced or coerced sex, there is no real hope for any sanity to enter this field. The CSA witch-hunters, with popular backing, will continue to ruin lives for the sake of a date on a birth-certificate. ---Kate

Have you ever considered editing on subjects like, say, anything you don't have such a strong opinion about? Misplaced Pages is not a debate forum, so it's not exactly helpful to hear people's rants/sob stories/personal opinions/whatever on the talk page. Unless you are a notable source, your input is utterly non-helpful and indeed detracts from the main goal of this page, improving our verifiable, objective coverage of the subject at hand. Not to be rude or uncivil, but it's totally worthless to make these additions, all they do is stir up trouble. --tjstrf 06:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Tjstrf (for once - lol). Kate, while I may sympathize about wanting more neutral articles on controversial subjects like this, the talk page is not the place to launch into heated rants that will fall on deaf ears anyway. Let's keep the talk page for discussing specifics on how to keep articles full of NPOV information and devoid of POV/morality politics/etc. I don't mind anyone editing within their areas of interest, so long as the main aim is always NPOV improvement. Btw, I've added a line to address the general area you were talking about, just mentioning the dissent... -Neural 18:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

A very iffy line

"The majority of experts believe that CSA is innately harmful to minors."

Can anyone even begin to substantiate this claim? As someone interested in this area, from a research angle, this seems very fishy and misleading. I suggest re-wording this line at the very least. -Neural 18:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Globalize tag

There is so much material on international child sexual abuse that I think it'll be easy to make the page much, much better from this point of view. Places to start are here, here, here, here...etc! DanB DanD 01:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Definition

It looks like we're starting up a little revert skirmish over the definition in the summary paragraph. However, I think both versions are bad: I don't think CSA is defined either popularly, legally, or medically in terms of the age of consent, so I think that whole debate is out of place. The law uses different words entirely like "statutory rape" or "corruption of a minor" or "lewd conduct" -- "abuse" is a word from psychology, and using the legal terminology of age of consent is muddying.

Here's what the APA says. The bit I've bolded is the bit they highlight in a pull-quote.

What is Child Sexual Abuse?

There is no universal definition of child sexual abuse. However, a central characteristic of any abuse is the dominant position of an adult that allows him or her to force or coerce a child into sexual activity. Child sexual abuse may include . Child sexual abuse is not solely restricted to physical contact; such abuse could include noncontact abuse, such as exposure, voyeurism, and child pornography. Abuse by peers also occurs.

So, I don't see why the phrase "age of consent" is in the first paragraph at all. The question according to the APA is the adult's position of power, which is unaffected by whether the kid is over the age of consent or not--your high school principal has the same position of dominance whether the local AoC is 14 or 16.

DanB DanD 23:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Generally the age is 18 in cases where the older partner is in a position of authority regardless of what it is in other cases. But that aside, we have to come to a conclusion about whether we are going to adopt a legal or medical definition and be consistent throughout the article. St. Jimmy 04:40, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Citation tag

The word "abuse" in this phrase relates to the the implication that all such sexual activity is inherently harmful, although some commentators, including those in favour of the abolition of age of consent laws criticize the presumption of harmfulness..

"Some commentators" comes close to weasel-wording. Is it worth mentioning people like Judith Levine or other sexologists/academics/commentators who criticize the assumption of harm in all adult-child sex? Maybe as a citation note? I've added a citation-needed tag for now -Neural 12:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

It is worth mentioning, but not in the lead paragraph, which is just an (at the moment, inaccurate) summary of the concept.

And in fact it is discussed already further down the page, so at the moment it's talked about twice.

DanB DanD 17:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

That lead paragraph

Child sexual abuse is commonly defined in contemporary western culture as any sexual activity an adult performs on or with a person under the local age of consent. The word "abuse" in this phrase relates to the the implication that all such sexual activity is inherently harmful, although some commentators, including those in favour of the abolition of age of consent laws criticize the presumption of harmfulness. A perpetrator of child sexual abuse is known as a child sex offender if convicted. Child sexual abuse is a crime in most countries.

Let's look at how this approach would look if applied to the Earth article:

The earth is commonly defined as planet in the Sol system. The word "planet" in this phrase relates to the implication that the earth is a spherical object orbiting its sun, although some commentators, including those in favor of replacing current astronomical curricula with a time cube-oriented approach, criticize the presumption that the earth is not a flat plane supported on the backs of three huge elephants.

You see what I'm saying? Sure, there are a few wackjobs out there. So? It's of minor passing interest to mention this, but not in the article lead paragraph. Sheesh.

Do any of these "commentators" have any popular support? Of course not. Do reputable sociologists and sexologists support them? Of course not. Anybody with an axe to grind can make a website. Can we all at least agree that this paragraph needed some serious editing (which I have now done). Let's stick to the facts please, thx. Herostratus 04:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice. I think that really looks good. DanB DanD 04:52, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Herostratus, you are begging the question of who is "reputable." Anyone who says anything strongly conunterintuitive to any strongly held public opinion is liable to become disreputable in the eyes of the public merely by doing so. Commentators, psychologists and sexologists who have disputed the presumption of harm are quite numerous, from Alfred Kinsey to Wakefield and Underwager to Rind to social critic Judith Levine and columnist Andrew Sullivan. But more to the point, you can't define CSA according to whether trauma occurs as the current para does. I avidly wish the law did so, but it doesn't. As long as CSA is defined a matter of rigidly defined age boundaries we are doing the public a disservice to pretend it is defined otherwise. St. Jimmy 13:43, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

It looks like we need to talk about this more (argh!) but I'm going to revert for the duration of the discussion just because I think the paragraph as it is reads really awkwardly, and I like the new one.

DJac, can you quote us a legal source that explicitly defines "sexual abuse" in terms of age of consent? I've been looking, and I can't find one. I think what's going on here is that you're thinking of the specific crime of statutory rape, which may or may not be classed as sexual assault or sexual abuse depending on the circumstances. So, your concerns may be better addressed in that article.

Thing is, when I google CSA I don't get law codes, I get the APA.

DanB†DanD 18:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC) (look at my fancy new sig!!!)

Yes, I wouldn't take an overly legalistic view of CSA. I think we have to and do include legal aspects, but its primarily a social and psychological issue. Age of consent varies between jurisdictions, also. There is no clear, agree-upon meaning for the world "child"; to some, it means "minor" (basically anyone under 18, as 18 is the age of majority in most jurisdictions); to others it means pre-pubescent (or peripubescent) or pre-adolescent persons. I think "minor" is the better definition here, as (for example) sex between (say) a stepfather and 15-16-17 daughter in his care and control would generally be considered CSA, I think (I'm not sure of this). FWIW I also think that most CSA harm deniers are talking about this age range, though. I think very few people think that if you are talking about an 9-10-11 year old, say, would deny harm. Anyway, back to the lead... fine you dug up a few names. In a group of six you had to include a lay magazine columnist (and an idiot at that IMO), a social critic, the ever-cited Rind whom you are misunderstanding in my view (Rind did not make any such blanket statements), and Kinsey whom I also think you are misunderstanding, I think. Against this... well, you have scores of thousands of mental health workers who are constantly dealing with the traumatic results of CSA. You have many, many people who either were or who know people who were victims of CSA. Ask them if CSA is no big deal. You have many experts and researchers... look, I get it. You're Bravely Fighting The Dominant Paradigm. Fine. But there's just too much contrary information. You can't just spin it away.Herostratus 19:19, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

For the record, I think Herostratus' formulation is much better. -Will Beback 19:59, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

-Dan, I think you're trying to wrangle with a tautology. "Child sexual abuse" is only a legal concept by virtue of a breach of the law, i.e. "statutory rape." It is not a legal concept except by reference to a statutory rape law. The fact that in some states, the generic crime of statutory rape is called "sexual abuse of a child" or something similar confuses things a little, but we have to be clear. -Herostratus, I don't think any of the people I cited make any blanket statements with regard to harmfulness, nor do I myself. We are talking about deniers of a presumption of harm (the Dominant Paradigm as you call it)--and what is a presumption if not a blanket evaluation? But one blanket evaluation does not need to be replaced by a contrary blanket evaluation. It may be replaced, instead, by a case-by-case consideration, which is much closer to what I think all the folks I cited would advocate. It's true that if you stack the deck as the current intro does--by making trauma a defining element of CSA--you will always find trauma in CSA victims. That's true in a tautologous sense, but it's not very helpful. Whereas, many victims of CSA (as defined by the law) have suffered no harm whatever; but they are overlooked because they aren't out complaining in the media, precisely because they see nothing to complain about. (In this as in many other areas of life, the squeaky wheel not only gets the grease, it usually gets to define the parameters of discussion.) -In summary, the article and lead para as it stands is a poor superimposition of legal and psychological concepts on one another. The plain fact is that there is not a perfect correspondence between what the law says is licit conduct and what many informed people believe about the innate harmfulness of certain conduct. We can frame CSA according to either a legal or a psychological definition, but there absolutely must be a coming to grips with that disjunction between "illegal" and "harmful" or "innately harmful." St. Jimmy 21:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

"...many victims of CSA (as defined by the law) have suffered no harm whatever; but they are overlooked because they aren't out complaining in the media, precisely because they see nothing to complain about."'

This statement is as logically absurd (and untrue) as it is loathsome. You could make the same statement about anything, because one can't disprove a negative. ("Many victims of have suffered no harm whatever; but they are overlooked because they aren't out complaining in the media, precisely because they see nothing to complain about.")

You can't have something that big go through the room without leaving tracks. Where are the tracks, then. How come Jerry Springer and his ilk don't feature CSA victims who enjoyed their abuse? Don't you think they'd love a controversial show like that?

Granted, it's not impossible to subject a child to CSA and have it turn out alright, just as it's not impossible to subject a child to cocaine addiction or savage beatings and have it turn out alright. The fact that some people are extremely resiliant is of interest and may be included as a minor aside somewhere in the article.

Granted also that the number of people, some of whom can write coherent sentences, who think that CSA is a day at the beach is not zero. I know all about girllovers and boylovers and that. The overwhelming majority of these people come to the plate with a huge agenda of self interest. I recognize that one study out of thousands (Rind) - probably cited more in Misplaced Pages than On the Origin of Species or the Theory of Special Relativity - is construed as basically saying that CSA is all fun and games (a misreading of what is anyway a seriously flawed study, in my opinion). Fine, that can go in somewhere. Not in the lede, though.

Also, I mean, be reasonable. From the article: "Many experts believe that CSA is innately harmful to minors. A wide range of psychological, emotional, physical, and social effects has been attributed to child sexual abuse, including anxiety, depression, obsession, compulsion, grief, post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms such as flashbacks, emotional numbing, pseudo-maturity symptoms, and other more general dysfunctions such as sexual dysfunction, social dysfunction, dysfunction of relationships, poor education and employment records, eating disorders, self-mutilation, and a range of physical symptoms common to some other forms of PTSD, such as sensual numbness, and loss of appetite." Which syncs with simple common sense and the experience of the overwhelming majority of people. Did those researchers just pull all that out of thin air?

As to your reply to Dan, I'm not sure what you're saying. In most cases, for instance, verbal and psychological abuse is not a crime. Does that mean that it does not exist. Hell, lots of things that aren't prohibited by law still exist. Mimes, for instance. Herostratus 04:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

As for my "loathsome commentary", I generally don't get autobiographical, but since you are so fervent about the absurdity of the statement you quoted, allow me to cite myself as evidence for what you find so hard to believe. I had sexual relations before I was 16, the "legal" age in Michigan. I was not and am not harmed by the experience. By the standards of the law, I was "subjected to child sexual abuse." The difference between me and the typical talk show guest is that I consider it to have been initiation, not exploitation. Now, perhaps I am guessing (though having spoken to many people about it, it is not exactly a shot in the dark) but I think there are many other people like myself, who when they hear "child sexual abuse" it flies over their head, never suspecting that it applied to them. We remain unheard, while those who insist that they were "victims"--sometimes for precisely the same activity--are heard ad nauseam. Again, there is a basic disjunction between harm (which would cause us to see ourselves as victims of abuse) and what the law actually says about abuse. Also, people brought up a certain way may feel a reticence about discussing their sexual histories, especially if those histories don't jibe with what is considered proper or politically correct. This, too, contributes to a skewed view of what is actually going on.

Rind's study, as does the work of the other folks I cited, does not compare CSA to "fun and games", but does challenge the "intrinsic harm" view of CSA. Your hyperbole doesn't help your case. Those opposed to your point of view do not seek to impose an opposite view as extreme as the one you are defending. They simply believe that the presumption of intrinsic harm is false. And, as you point out, there are notable folks defending this view.

As to what Dan said, I was merely pointing out that he was trying to mix a legal concept with a psychological one (though to an extent, we all have been). Dan wrote "DJac, can you quote us a legal source that explicitly defines "sexual abuse" in terms of age of consent?" Well, no, I can't quote a single legal source to that effect, since the law only discusses the law and things that relate to the law. Have you ever been driving on a main road or highway and the driver in front of you seems unable to pick a lane to drive in and stick to it? Well, we can define CSA legally or psychologically, and I don't care which, but we do need to pick one definition or the other and stick to it, and then be able to recognize its contradictions and limitations. St. Jimmy 04:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

It is very, very unsurprising that someone under the age of 16 reports being untraumatized by sex. Teenager Enjoys Sex! News At Eleven!

That's not really anything to do with anything. For one thing, teenagers enjoy doing lots of things that are harmful to them and are rightly illegal, such as tequila and driving really fast. A guy who gives a fourteen-year-old a bottle of cuervo and a set of car keys is a very bad man, no matter how thrilled the kid is by this "initiation" into grown-up life.

For another thing, no, I don't think we do have to pick legal or psych and stick to it. Just as "Domestic Abuse" is not the name of a crime but a term that may be applied to a number of different crimes (and some non-crimes) committed in the context of a family. A definition can be perfectly clear without having very clear limits, like the definition of "blue."

Also, nice compassion for those folks whose early experiences of sex were less happy than yours.

DanB†DanD 06:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

A definition can be perfectly clear without having very clear limits, like the definition of "blue." There probably is a scientific definition of "blue" out there, according to wavelength or whatever it may be (I wasn't a physics major). But aside from that, the various colloquial and other possible definitions of "blue" are not liable to be randomly alternated within the same article in order to defend a particular agenda. It's a fallacy of ambiguity, such as in the argument "Smurfs are blue; Smurfette must have died." In debates, and in factual encyclopedia articles, unlike ordinary frivolous discussions, clear definitions are absolutely essential if one wants to know what is actually being talked about.

As for my supposed lack of compassion, maybe you have a point. However, when people are already overdosing on their own sensitivity, they need straight talk, not more empathy. If compassion is the coin of the realm, here's a case that could've used a bit more of it: Battle Creek EnquirerSt. Jimmy 14:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

You know, when I started watchlisting the Pedophilia related articles, I thought I would be vandal patrolling against people in the censorship crowd (you know, the one who has an edit summary of "We shouldn't have to read this"?) and your normal assortment of IP idiots. Little did I know that I was going to have to read pages-long rants written by self-proclaimed champions of The Truth(tm)... Anyway, my input on this would be that the current intro is so watered down that it already has a strong implied statement that an event is only Child Sexual Abuse if there is a "trauma reaction" in the child.

Speaking of the term trauma reaction, what exactly does that mean? Do we have an article that defines trauma reaction we could link to at that point? --tjstrf 08:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Child sexual abuse occurs when a person (usually an adult or older child) engages a child in sexual activity resulting in a trauma reaction in the victim - this article is now factually incorrect. As most of us are well-aware, any and all sexual activity between an adult and a child is legally classed as CSA, regardless of whether any "traumatic reaction" is recorded in the minor or not. The lead paragraph has gone from being balanced and factual to POV and erroneos. -Neural 11:03, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

ITA 100% neural. The inclusion of "trauma" as a defining characteristic of CSA is absolutely unacceptable. St. Jimmy 14:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

One could argue that the definition of abuse requires there to be trauma, hence child sexual abuse would inherit that requirement. However, it's not Misplaced Pages's place to reform definitions of terms. --tjstrf 17:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

That Lead Paragraph II: A New Hope

I'll make an edit break here because the section was getting long, and I have a new proposal.

We seem to be talking at cross-purposes here. In everyday language (and pychological langauge), "abuse" is by definition traumatic; if its not traumatic, its not abuse. Then there is the legal side. Now, I'm not sure of the language used in laws, and to find out would mean combing through many score of laws, but it seems to me at least possible that many jurisdiction the term "child sexual abuse" may not even be in the statute. For instance, I could well image that a law of jurisdiction X might say something like " by a person with a child of or younger shall result in a term of not less than 10 years in jail" or whatever. Without using the term "child sexual abuse" anywhere in the statute. Law are usually very specific, and need to describe but not necessarily give a name to the illegal behavior.

However, until this is sorted out, how about the text below as a compromise? Herostratus 16:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The term child sexual abuse (CSA) refers to two related but separate concepts:

• In psychological and common parlance, child sexual abuse occurs when a person (usually an adult or older child) engages a child in sexual activity, usually resulting in a trauma reaction in the victim. Reactions vary between individuals and circumstances and according to the age of the victim, but post-traumatic stress and depression are common results.
• iIn law, any sexual relations between an adult and a child, or between an older and younger child (or, in some jurisdictions, between children of similar ages) may, if they violate the child protection laws of a given jurisdiction, be termed child sexual abuse regardless of the presence or absence of psychological trauma.

I would go for that, except for the phrase "usually resulting" in the first half. Change "usually" to "often" and I think we're pretty good to go. (Usually implies more than 50% of the time and notable folks dispute that.) St. Jimmy 16:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, not so much. A double-definition is just weird.

I do see now that "trauma reaction" is misplaced in the lead sentence. A trauma reaction is something pretty specific and involved, as the page I linked shows, and you can quite easily find lots of people going "Hey, I just had sex with that thirteen-year-old, and she's neither numbed nor amnesiac. Clearly I've done nothing wrong!" Coercive, long-term, or prepubescent abuse will typically lead to a trauma reaction; underage sex as such frequently will not.

However, arguments against the presumption of "trauma" (easy to make) are not arguments agains the presumption of harm (much less easy to make).

The part I like is the part you've cut from your new version, Herostratus - the part closer to the APA definition. The good part of it is that it defines abuse in terms of what is is not in terms of its effects.

APA says - "a central characteristic of any abuse is the dominant position of an adult that allows him or her to force or coerce a child into sexual activity"

Herostratus previously said - "the result of the relative powerlessness of the child in relation to the perpetrator of the abuse, or the introduction of sexual activity inappropriate to the child's level of sexual development, or both."

Seriously guys, stop being obsessed with the age of consent. It's a total side issue. You can have a paragraph somewhere down the page saying "Many argue that age of consent laws sometimes cause prosecutions for abuse where no abuse has taken place. See Age of consent. The end." Numbers just are not defining to the concept of abuse. Differential in power and the violation of healthy sexual development is central to the concept of abuse. Get it out of the lead paragraph.

At least until you can find a reputable source somewhere defining "sexual abuse" in terms of age - as I have found a reputable source defining it in terms of power differential and developmental appropriateness.

DanB†DanD 17:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, DJac, I looked it up, and you'll be happy to learn that you were not the victim of "child sexual abuse" in Michigan. You were instead the victim of 750.520e Criminal sexual conduct in the fourth degree; misdemeanor - or you were if your partner was five years older than you; otherwise not.

Interestingly, according to Sander's comprehensive review for NCLEX-RN, the board of nursing defines child sexual abuse not by the presence of trauma, but rather by the presence of exploitation. The definition of child abuse also reflects this, being given as "Emotional or physical abuse or neglect, as well as sexual exploitation or molestation by caretakers or other individuals." (Abuse itself is defined as "The willful infliction of pain, injury, or mental anguish.") So, assuming the definition to still be current, (I only have the 2002 edition) that would be the medical definition in the U.S. --tjstrf 17:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

If we want to add a bit on effects of consensual postpubescent sex, there's the The National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health, which studied the effects on teens of, among other things, sex (not necessarily with adults). Unfortunately the group that has used their data on sex most has been the Heritage Foundation, conservative ideologues. However, I did find this study, a little less alarmist but reading the data the same way. DanB†DanD 18:27, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Just a side note: Please remember that child molestation and child molester both redirect to this page. We need to make sure that the intro, and the rest of the article, also covers the concept of molestation. -Will Beback 20:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Something I googled up and am reading through. Interesting on the history of evolving perspectives: potential cite? It's not at all NPOV in its language, but appears solidly sourced in its information. http://www.aifs.gov.au/nch/issues9.html DanB†DanD 22:02, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The Canadian Department of Justice's site (obviously a legal rather than a psych source) concurs with the APA in defining sexual abuse as an abuse of power rather than as a question of arithmetic:

"Sexual abuse and exploitation of children and youth occurs when an older child, adolescent or adult takes advantage of a younger child or youth for sexual purposes"

The site then lists the various laws that apply, which take into account both age, age difference, and type of relationship (dependency or not). DanB†DanD 22:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The First Paragraph Strikes Back

I removed the 'some people believe...' section in the first paragraph as this is an entry for Child Sexual Abuse, not pedophilia, and it is not by any means the appropriate place for NAMBLA members or whoever else to publicize illegal and harmful propaganda. I also removed the link at the bottom to NAMBLA. I do not understand how it can be justified as a part of this article. Someone seeking a resource on CSA, particularly a minor, does not need to be referred to a set of 'opinions' by a group of people who are wrong, and who are breaking the law, and who are, quite simply, sociopaths. I am referencing this recent NYTimes article as justification as to why allowing this type of flaming is so harmful: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/21/technology/21pedo.html?_r=1&oref=slogin. -

Here goes me:

Child sexual abuse is the sexual assault of a minor, or sexual activity between a minor and an older person in which the dominant position of the older person is used to coerce or exploit. Child sexual abuse is illegal in most countries. Although statutes differ in detail, all sex between an adult and a young child is held to be coercive under the law regardless of the use of physical force.

Child molestation is an informal synonym for child sexual abuse, most often used for sex between adults and young children. A perpetrator of child sexual abuse is known as a child sex offender if convicted, or informally as a child molester.

Okay? I would cite the APA for the first sentence, and hopefully non-American sites too (the def. does match UK/Commonwealth practice, but so far I'm having a hard time finding clear definitional statements except for the Canadian one. As always, non-English sources are hard to come by for the non-English speaker, but please help out if you can.

After a search, I have not found any exceptions to the third sentence (no, not even Holland - under twelve is straightup abuse there, no question of consent. It's the 12-16 range where they have a gray area), so that's why I didn't say "generally" or "in most countries" there.

Some of Herostratus' language on effects could easily be incorporated into this, or added in a third brief paragraph. As I've said, I don't think the age of consent is of defining importance. I'm also going to move "effects&;;;quot; and "offender" above the section on U.S. law, to decrease that pesky Americo-centrism that plagues us so. I suggest adding brief entries for other notable countries in addition to the U.S. one (such as Holland which is so famously the most permissive state on this that I'm surprised to realize we don't have info), and maybe cutting the U.S. detail a bit.

What says wiki?

DanB†DanD 00:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

The part I have re-inserted deals with, and explains, how "abuse" in CSA relates to the presumption of abusiveness in any sexual activity between a legal adult and a legal minor, while legally CSA is not dependent on any disclosure of trauma by the victim. If there is no presumption of harm, the term would be "adult-child sex" or something, not "child sex abuse". Let's try to keep articles as objective and NPOV as possible. Instead of a lengthy discussion of all this within the article (as I was tempted to write), I've linked to the Age of consent reform page that discusses the other views and/or criticisms. This part was put in initially to address accusations of unbalance on this talk page in the first place. I don't see how deleting this part can be anything other than an attempt to push a particular POV by censoring any info on different views. -Neural 13:34, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Neural, the AoC does not define abuse. Many jurisdictions do not hold all sex across the AoC to be abusive. Many jurisdictions do hold sex with kids above the age of consent to be abusive when a custodial relationship exists. A link to age of consent concerns belongs somewhere on the page (See also?) but not in the definition. DanB†DanD 18:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure that looks OK, put it in. My original had "or the introduction of sexual activity inappropriate to the child's level of sexual development, or both.". This is basically (but not entirely) referring to prepubescent and early-pubescent children. I don't have a cite for this handy but I'm sure there are thousands. I think it ought to go in. :"Adult-child sex" is not a commonly accepted term. It is useful in some places, but not here. NPOV usually means using the standard, common, accepted, and accurate terminology. We don't call "murder" a "violent interaction between two people" and so forth, even if that is technically correct, and so forth. As for the legal stuff, the more I think of it, the less likely it seems to me that the "child sexual abuse" is used in all or even the great majority of laws. It ought to be minimized in the lead paragraph although its OK to address it in the body of the article. For the other, again I go back to my contention that views held by a small group of insert description of choice here should be given anything like equal treatment. NPOV basically means accepting the Standed Model, the Accepted Version, whatever you want to call it. We are not so much interested in the truth, odd as that sounds -- because truth is far too slippery a concept, and each person has their own truths. Bottom line, yes, go with that version -- except take out the bolding except for the term itself. Herostratus 17:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm seeing some nice new links, but I'm not finding an exact cite for "or the introduction of sexual activity inappropriate to the child's level of sexual development, or both." You'd think it'd be easy, but most material is too specialized to exactly set that straight out like that, although most material assumes and implies that it's true. Anyway, it seems pretty much incontravertible that screwing an eight-year-old is, above and beyond and power-relationship issues, introducing a level of sexual activity into her life that ain't healthy. I mean, if suppose you could take away the power-differential issues (which would be impossible, but just supposing) would it then be OK and not disruptive to her psyche? No way. But you can't separate the two, because it always involves a power differential. But anyway, it still does need a cite. Hang on, I'll find one. Herostratus 03:27, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Yet again (sigh) we have returned to a crude and misleading definition of CAS in the lead paragraph - basically one interpretation that is at odds with legal reality in most juristictions where "CSA" is on the books as an offense. I can tell by the edit history that a POV is being pushed here, one that tolerates no alternative views, and one that over-rides any attempt at neutrality and objectivity: namely, the view that any-all sexual activity between a legal minor and a legal adult (that differs radically depending on juristiction) is innately harmful, as the the local law/culture of certain editors would have it. My own view or these other personal views are neither here nor there. Because of cultural taboos and the accepted wisdom of a majority of editors, this article comes nowhere near the NPOV standards required of Misplaced Pages articles. Currently we have: "CSA is (my POV interpretation of my culture's or my law's particular stance on what CSA is/means). I suggest a far more considered/objective/balanced rewrite that tells a bigger picture instead of turning this into a right-wing tract. In the meantime, I have reverted to the version that includes more than one strong POV of the subject. -Neural 11:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

What a confusing thing to say.

You argue against my supposed assertion of "innate harm" but in fact the way my first paragraph differs from the previous one is that it doesn't define CSA in terms of harm. It doesn't even mention harm.

Meanwhile, the version you keep reverting to is simply inaccurate, particularly from a global point of view. Lots of sex across the AoC is not legally CSA. Lots of sex on one side of the AoC is CSA. The AoC does not define CSA, not even in most of America, and certainly not globally. I honestly don't know why you keep on wanting to talk about the freaking age of consent.

It really seems to me that you're arguing not against my language, but against some phantom opponent you have dreamed up, who asserts a phantom definition that you have also dreamed up. It is all quite strange.

DanB†DanD 12:48, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

A Few Exemplary Cases
1. Suzy, 17, is above the age of consent in Michigan. Martin, 32, is her lover. But he is also her teacher! Is their sex CSA?
AoC says: NO
Michigan law says: YES
Because of the custodial relationship between them, the law holds sex between them to be abuse despite her being north of the Age of Consent.
AoC does not define CSA in this case.

2. Herman, 18, is madly in love with Huey, 15, his fellow Londoner. The British age of consent is 16. Is their sex CSA?
AoC says: YES
British law says: NO
The Home Office has issued the binding policy statement that the age of consent law "is not intended to prosecute mutually agreed teenage sexual activity between two young people of a similar age, unless it involves abuse or exploitation."
AoC does not define CSA in this case.

3. Californian Joey, 13, desires Zoe, only 10. When she refuses him, he threatens and bullies her until, weeping, she gives in. Is their sex CSA?
AoC says: NO
California law says: YES
Because the sex is coercive, it is abuse under the law regardless of Joey's young age.
AoC does not define CSA in this case.

4. Under a Dutch windmill, Soren, 14, blushingly receives the attentions of Serena, 20....

ET FREAKING CETERA, NEURAL

IT AINT THE FREAKING AOC

IT JUST AINT

DanB†DanD 13:07, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Your APA citation hardly counts as a universally-accepted global definition of CSA, does it? I also think you have some of your facts wrong, regarding the AOC, statuory rape laws, etc. Exceptions to the AOC laws are made (in some countries, in some juristictions) where the two people are close in age. Regardless, your entire definition of CSA only relates to laws in some countries. For example, a 40 year old having sexual relations with a 14 year old would be CSA in most (if not all) States in America, but not in Austria and other European countries where the legal AOC is 14 (sometimes lower). In some countries, the marriageable age is even lower, and sexual activity would not be classed as CSA.

Finally, why do you need to resort to personal insults about me with you article-history comments? This seems to be another case where you apparently have no regard for Misplaced Pages's policies. Let's keep things civil and focus on improving Misplaced Pages's articles by keeping them as neutral and objective as possible. -Neural 14:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure "laughing boy" counts as a the most devastating personal insult ever slung on Misplaced Pages, but I do apologize for dropping that encyclopedic tone.

Sadly, you are still making no sense.

What possible difference does variation from place to place in the AoC (which obviously exists) make to either your proposed definition or to mine? The point does not refer to any difference between versions of the lead paragraph, and is in fact already mentioned in both. Why do you bring it up? Are you just stalling?

DanB†DanD 14:48, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Cases not really exemplary

Dan, I would argue that the cases you listed simply mean the age of consent changes in a given place according to circumstances, but I won't argue that. I'll endorse something like the current version (defining CSA seperately from the age of consent) as long as it states EXPLICITLY that underage sex is not necessarily CSA, and vice versa. St. Jimmy 15:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know how you would state that succintly without being misleading - in some jurisdictions (check out the Idaho penal code!) the overlap is exact. And as the page says, sex between adults and young children (as each culture defines those categories) is considered abuse everywhere. But go ahead and try out some language. DanB†DanD 16:24, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

On what basis is the overlap exact in Idaho? Do you mean that the sexual abuse law makes no specific reference to age, but only to 'abuse of power' or whatever your side's preferred catchphrase is? St. Jimmy 05:47, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

the return of the lead paragraph

Until we work this out, I'm sure of the following:

• We are not going to have WP:WEASEL words such as "...commonly defined in contemporary western culture...". Unless you have cites that in China or wherever child sexual abuse is considered occasion for a block party, let's keep oh-so-clever stuff like that out.
• As we've explained many times, the abolition of age of consent law movement consists of a tiny handful of ultra-right-wing loonies with zero support from serious researchers, mental health workers, the general public, or anyone else. They are not gettting a nice comfy spot in the lead. They have their own articles.
• Maybe you didn't get the memo, but the days when Misplaced Pages was called Wikipedophilia are over. There are many, many web sites where you can polemicize all you want to. Misplaced Pages's high visibility is not going to be hijacked to help publicize any extremist movements, period.
• I'm starting to get annoyed.Herostratus 16:34, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

If you actually read the Age of consent reform page, you'll see that there are many differing groups supporting abolition or reduction. Far from being right wing, most are ultra-'lefties if anything. Strident right-wingers typically favour ALL sex (except that within marriage) being taboo or even illegal. Where do you get the odd idea that abolition is a right-wing idea??? It's is the opposite. You could hardly call lefties like Judith Levine and John Holt right-wingers... -Neural 12:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

---

How is a movement to abolish the age of consent right-wing in any way shape or form? I think the extremists on that side would prefer we all use the missionary position and make adultery a stoneable offense again. --tjstrf 16:49, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I was informed this morning that I'm right-wing myself, so I'm prepared to believe anybody is. (Herostratus is right if "right-wing" is understood to mean anti-government, although that's not the form of the right wing that we presently have in power).

Also...it does seem as if the adversarial tone (which I have totally contributed to, however flippantly) is getting to be a bit much. DanB†DanD 17:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

People seem to just use the label opposite their own to accuse people they disagree with of borderline insanity nowdays. It's getting to the point where "conservative" and "liberal" can both be considered nearly pejorative terms. Besides, the left-right political labels don't reflect the opinions of most groups accurately, multi-axis political models are far more precise (under which system, abolition of age of consent would be on the extreme fringe of social liberalism). But we're rather off topic now, aren't we? --tjstrf 18:18, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a bit off-topic, but think this through with me. Why is it ultra-right-wing? Liberals and socialists believe in protecting the people, especially the weak (the poor, the disabled, the elderly, children, etc.) from the hardness of this world, especially the effects of predatory capitalism. Right wingers believe it's every man for himself. Age of consent laws are child protection laws. What else would they be, what other function would they have? An adult is stronger than a child, much stronger. Physically stronger, more clever, more experienced, a more subtle thinker, a more convincing talker. I saw a comment from a fireman recently that said through about age eleven, children in a fire will usually hide under a bed or in a closet, even if an escape route is available. They find small bodies in these places. How can a person who believes that the way to escape a fire is to hide in a closet establish themselves in an equal relationship with a strong, clever, smooth talking, mentally developed person with a driving adult lust. Age of consent laws are of a piece with child labor laws etc. Children are weaker than adults for many, many reasons, and need protection. One result of abolishment of age of consent laws would certainly be an increase in child prostitution. Yes a libertarian would say Well it's the child's choice if she wants to do that. That takes no account of how the world really works. There are such people as pimps, and they can be crafty and ruthless. Sexual exploitation of children in general would skyrocket. All this is why we have child labor laws and other laws protecting children. Again, a libertian would say Well an 8-year-old should have the choice to work 12 hours a day in a coal mine. Do we want to go back to that kind of world. If all capitalists were saints perhaps this would not be a problem. Establishment of age of consent was definitely a left-liberal movement, at least in the United States, by the way. You will also find that that the Youth Liberation Movement is against child-labor laws, schooling laws, and the like, and are in bed with the Randians. Granted that some advocates of the abolotion of age of consent are libertines rather than libertarians and proclaim no strong political views. But that does not mean that they are not catspaws for ultra-right activists. You may not be interested in politics but politics is interested in you, and we live in a political world. Herostratus 19:46, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

While your statements about the democratic ideals are nice, they have nothing to do with "liberalism" the concept. By the precise positive definitions, rather than the current partisan republican/democrat derived, politically spun meanings, liberalism is not the opposite of conservatism, but rather of authoritarianism. Liberalism supports more personal freedom and the individual as their own leader. Authoritarianism supports more governmental control and the government as protector and leader.

Conservativism is totally seperate, and is more a mindset than a political philosophy. It is considered the opposite of progressive. Conservativism espouses cautiousness in change, moderation, maintenance of the status quo, and the avoidance of rash or radical decisions. Progressivism espouses constant change, and opposes leaving things at the status quo.

Now, you will notice that every one of these traits is, in itself, a positive description. They are also independant of one another. Liberal does not entail progressive, conservative does not entail authoritarian. Further, you can have different views in different fields, such as the economy, social issues, foreign policy, etc. This is why a simple left-right classification will never be sufficient to identify where an idea falls politically.

So, abolition of the age of consent is a socially liberal idea, as it is against governmental control. It is definitely an extremist idea, and most self identified liberals would vehemently disagree with it, but the idea itself is liberal. --tjstrf 20:26, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

No it's not. It's libertarian. I'm a Social Democrat and I believe in protecting the weak, period. Would you also call abolition of child labor laws "liberal". After all it is taking taking the away the authortarian prevention of the child from making his own decisons. There are such "liberal" societies. You can find them in the slums of third-world cities, where children are "free" to work as prostitutes, rag-pickers, beggars, and petty criminals -- practically the only occupations open to them, as they are physically and mentally too weak to compete with adults for more desirable work. Would it be socially liberal to eliminate minimum ages for ending schooling, for drinking, what have you. All these laws are proper social democrat laws. There isn't much difference between aqge of consent laws and child labor laws, you can't slip a piece of paper between them. "The strong take what they can, the weak endure what they must" -- that's an ultra-right point of view and you can't deny it. Unless you have a simple libertine point of view and view children as sexual toys.

Relax, I'm not claiming you support any of those things. Remember, liberalism in reality has nothing to do with partisanism, democrats, or republicans, both of whom are liberal and authoritarian in different areas. If we actually had one fully liberal and one fully authoritarian party, we'd have to be choosing between anarchism and dictatorship.

Legalizing child labour would be liberal. Legalizing child prostitution would be liberal. Legalizing drug use, spousal abuse, abortion, sweat-shops, etc. would all be liberal, since they are removing government restrictions on the populace. (Lassez-faire is the liberal economic philosophy, though certainly not the one supported by the democratic party.) However, they would also be horrendously immoral. These acts are the liberal extremist equivalent to the authoritarian extremist travesties of fascism, government-sponsored genocide, and the gulags. Morality is an entirely different issue from political philosophy, and extremism to any direction will have negative results morally.

Protecting the weak is a progressive authoritarian ideal, and to be lauded. "The strong take what they can, the weak endure what they must" is non-progressive (I'd almost say regressionist) liberal cynicism, and definitely not something to promote. As a general rule, Social Democrats are moderate progressive social liberals, and moderate to full progressive economic authoritarians. Libertarians are full to extreme progressive liberals in both social and economic issues. And in case you were wondering, both parties which have influence right now are mostly authoritarian in their actions. --tjstrf 21:12, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Herostratus, being a social democrat who believes in protecting the weak may get you into heaven faster, but it does not give you any more moral authority in editing a supposedly neutral reference source than any other editor. So skip the self-congratulation. You consider any tampering with the age of consent to be motivated by "ultra right wing" tendencies? Fine, then there are a lot of notable "ultra right wing" folks who have notably commented on the issue and whose views need to be included here. St. Jimmy 05:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The definition of CSA given in the paragraph is only the APA's own definition - this is now pointed out. I've also tried to re-integrate the part that was intended to bring balance in the first place, so that the article is not pretending there is only one universally accepted view of CSA that everyone in the world agrees with (strong POV).

Btw, Dan, I hardly think that "laughing boy" was meant as a term of endearment, but all is forgiven.

A note to all: if we don't keep this article as balanced as is absolutely possible, let's don't expect this to be voted a top-quality article any time soon. People understandably have very strong views on this subject, but the article should not be the place for anyone to preach those views or pretend that no other views exist.

-Neural 12:01, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I guess you are talking about "classic liberalism", which (if I recall) is a more or less laissez-faire philosphy developed in opposition to the aristocracy controlling everything. That's an old, historical definition not meant nowadays when people say "liberalism". But anyway I didn't use those terms. I used ultra-right-wing = right libertarian, which is accurate. But nevermind.

The point is that small bands of fanatics, while perhaps worthy of some mention, don't deserve pride of place in the lead paragraph, period. Trying to twist NPOV to make it serve the aims of extremist polemics isn't going to fly. I stand by my original analogy, which is that the following lead paragraph would NOT be NPOV:

"The earth is commonly defined as planet in the Sol system. The word "planet" in this phrase relates to the implication that the earth is a spherical object orbiting its sun, although some commentators, including those in favor of replacing current astronomical curricula with a time cube-oriented approach, criticize the presumption that the earth is not a flat plane supported on the backs of three huge elephants."

If you don't get why that lead would be biased, I can't help you, but I will again say: you're supposed to be here to edit articles, not use Misplaced Pages for your own foul ends, and you can't, end of story.

Classic liberalism? Yes, I suppose so, though classic liberalism is slightly different. I stated as much in my initial replies. Though it's not so much "classical" as it is "the actual, non politically partisan spun definition of" liberalism. It's also the one we use on the wiki, liberalism states: "Liberalism is an ideology, philosophical view, and political tradition which holds that liberty is the primary political value. Liberalism has its roots in the Western Enlightenment, but the term now encompasses a diversity of political thought." and then goes on to point out how many modern liberals have an authoritarian view towards the market economy. --tjstrf 16:26, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Heros, I have really been trying to work toward a generally acceptable consensus here, but your ideological snit is pushing me closer to endorsing Neural's position. I don't care if you think egalitarianism and so-called liberal values are the way to go, beyond any dispute. Those "left-wing" values are not universally accepted, and they are beside the point in any event. If we can get off the left/right name calling and POV pushing we might actually be able to get a decent article written. St. Jimmy 02:42, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Hero, one of the inherent requirements for NPOV is that we avoid making value judgments. In other words, Misplaced Pages is to, on controversial issues, tread the amoral path. I realize you are pro-wikiethics, but evil deserves its fair say. --tjstrf 03:35, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I cited the definition to the APA because they give a pretty clear statement of it at the linked page. However, I think it's misleading to say that it's their definition as the page does now -- the Canadian Department of Justice uses almost identical language, suggesting that the language is international, and that it's legal as well as psychological in application.

Most of Neural's revisions were more just inaccurate than NPOV. As for "evil having its say," I think one of the biggest problems this and other controversial pages on wiki have is with undue weight. In other words, famous evil gets to have its say, but regular old internet crankiness, not so much. The definition the page should primarily reflect is that of the international legal and psychological mainstream.

DanB†DanD 04:06, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

We have to cite it to someone for verifiability reasons, even if they aren't the only gorup using it. If the Canadian government uses the same definition, then cite and mention them as well, don't remove a perfectly good reference because they aren't the only source. --tjstrf 04:10, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I didn't remove it, I just didn't put it in, because I think succintness is a worthy goal for the first paragraph! DanB†DanD 04:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The bottom line is, it needs a reference. Since the APA definition was almost certainly the basis for the Canadian law, referencing the APA makes sense. --tjstrf 04:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

People are still trying to push their own view or interpretation of CSA by removing references to any views contrary to their own. The weak justification for this is that the views mentioned are polemic. Obviously, the views in question are controversial, but so are many views on many subjects. An NPOV article covers all views, does not preach a particular view, and leaves readers to draw their own conclusions and POVs based on a knowledge of all sides and their arguments. Whether anyone finds such arguments "evil" due to their own beliefs is neither here nor there. By pretending there is only one universally accepted view of CSA, we are simply misleading readers with a POV account that tolerates no dissent. -Neural 12:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Page archive?

I think this page needs archiving, and am more than willing to do it. It's reached the hellishly long 100kb stage, where you really can't find anything anymore by scrolling through it, has 30-some subheadings, and is 22 pages when printed. If we archived everything that has been inactive since July, that would trim 31 sub-headings, drastically reducing the talk page length. Comments? --tjstrf 05:09, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Neural

• It's inaccurate that "sex between a adult and a minor" normally defines abuse, as even Jimmy has pointed out to you
• It's inaccurate that exceptions to this are always defined by age or by difference in age - they are often determined by type of sex (penetrative/non-penetrative/etc.) or by type of relationship (custodial/non-custodial/marriage) or by a court's judgement of exploitation or coercion.
• To place a idea in the lead paragraph is to treat it as if it has broad acceptance and is part of the consensus definition of the article's subject. Just saying "It's controversial" does not change this - it implies that mainstream legal and psych circles are divided on the question, which is even more misleading.
• "Young child" is not equivalent to "minor" or to "person under the age of consent," so if you want to change it, you can't just plug one of those terms into my sentence because the sentence will become nonsensical. You're right that "young child" has no single global definition, but then no more does "minor." Both are common, easily grasped concepts, and both are linked to pages that explore what they mean in various cultures.
• It is just peculiar that you keep calling child abuse laws "western." Please enlighten me by identifying the non-western, pro-sex-with-children Shangri La that you are thinking of each time you type this.
• You've made the same changes a few times now, and I've responded to them a few times. Unless you get some new ideas, from here on in it's just going to be straightup reverts.
• Tjstrf: God yes, please archive all this nonsense! DanB†DanD 18:54, 25 August 2006 (UTC)