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POV-check tag

What will it take to remove the POV-check tag? --UB 11:05, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Divine intervention, I guess. Paul B 11:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I know that I am opening a Pandora's box but I find that the article has both views (pro-migration & pro-continuity) well represented.--UB 11:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

whould maybe be replaced by a cleanup tag. Minority views should obviously be discussed, but clearly presented as minority views. We get many editors who are not prepared to base discussion on academic publications, and thus do not accept a presentation of mainstream opinion. This should have no effect on tags, since it is Misplaced Pages policy to present views weighed by academic notability: this means that a coherent case must be made before tags can be slapped on things. The political implications are notable to India today, but as such have their own article. Nobody disputes there is some continuity: "pro-continuity" here means "no influx, PIE out of India", which is obviously not a tenable academic position. Discussion of the IVC may be fair, but it is simply offtopic here. But I agree the article is not terrible, and we might attempt replacing the NPOV tag with a "cleanup" one, and deal with dissent paragraph-by-paragraph (a general "NPOV" template is not useful on such a long article, since it doesn't show which parts are under dispute). dab (ᛏ) 13:09, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

How about PCT? It will take care of both PIE as well as continuity.--UB 08:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

ok, I replaced it with the cleanup tag; the article still indulges in much rambling about tangentially related topics. Note that this article should debate various scenarios about the migration's timeframe, and not treat random archaeological, philological or geological topics. The w idely accepted timeframe falls within 1900-1200 BC. There may be a case for pre-2000 immigration (source them), but such views are extremely fringy. There would still be I-A immigration, just in the 3rd instead of the 2nd millennium. I don't know if anyone believes in that, but it is certainly more credible than the idea of I-A miraculously developing independently. dab (ᛏ) 13:35, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Indus Valley Civilization 's scientific & organisational development was some MIRACLE ! Development of advanced town planning & laying of sewage underground pipelines during IVC was due to some MIRACLE ! Development of advanced maths & using decimal system that time was some MIRACLE ! Construction of sea port of Lothal which was massive, had dredged canal and docking facility was a MIRACLE ! Weights were based on units of 0.05, 0.1, 0.2, 0.5, 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 200, and 500, with each unit weighing approximately 28 grams, similar to the English Imperial ounce or Greek uncia was a MIRACLE ! Knowledge of Dentistry was a MIRACLE ! Practice of Yoga was a MIRACLE ! But, spreading of Sanskrit ( a scientific & `high' language ) over very vast civilized area of India by some nomadic tribes of central asia is not MIRACLE. WIN 05:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

um, yes, the IVC was a bronze age civilization with achievements comparable to those in Mesopotamia. If you are into that, you could consider contributing to our IVC article. And yes, even nomadic tribes have languages and rituals. Sanskrit became "scientific" with Panini in 500 BC, which has nothing whatsoever to do with IAM. dab (ᛏ) 08:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

In Mesopotamia , planned cities are not found. No `modern' underground sewage system is found. No decimal system is found which we are using today.No man made dock is found. No common weight measurement system is found as in IVC. This weight measurement unit of 28 gm = 1 unit was used by Greek & English as ounce. Still today, bricks ratio of 1:2:4 is being used. Dentistry knowledge is found so obviously it means that they were having knowledge of Life science Ayurveda. Whatever above written you see in IVC , is still practised in 2006 all over world. That shows that knowledge of IVC scholars was very deep and fundamentally correct. By your writings , you are undermining or negating the achievements of IVC Indians.

Give me example of any nomads who were sucessful in imparting their language & culture over much advanced & vast people. I have given so many examples in previous writings that language change was not possible. In India, historically any people coming & settling in India were asimiliated in vast Indian culture. Even in China history, The Great wall of China was made to ward off Mongolians who were `famous' nomads. But when, these `famous' nomads could invade China ; they adopted Buddhism ( an Indian religion ) and local language. So, mongolians who were central asian nomads when invaded China after 500 BC adopted Buddhism & chinese language but never were sucessful in implanting their language & rituals on Chinese Han people.

Panini had not deviced grammer of Sanskrit. Sanskrit grammer is same from Rig-Veda AND because of that Witzel's mis-translation of BSS verse was found. Panini only codified Sanskrit grammer in mathematical format around 500 BC. At the time of Panini, Prakrit languages like Pali & Ardhamagadhi were already common languages i.e. during Buddha & Mahavir's time around 500 BC. Panini codified already known Sanskrit grammer in concise manner using mathematical formula. His aim was to make Sanskrit grammer easy to understand & remember for common people so that Sanskrit which remained language of learned people that time, will not face any degradation. Even this shows that after complete drying of Saraswati river, IVC Indians were maintaining tradition of hard subject like maths. And, infact they used in language which is unparallel in the world history.

I think, first you should develop understanding in the subject. Otherswise, you will end up in illogical discussions here and Aryan Invasion Theory. WIN 11:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Give me example of any nomads who were sucessful in imparting their language & culture over much advanced & vast people.

The Arabs were successful in imparting their language & culture in the Levant over Greek speakers, in Mesopotamia over Aramaic speakers, in Egypt over the Copts, and in the present-day Maghreb over Berber, Punic, Vulgar Latin and Vandalic speakers.

Now, are you going to ask me to prove that those people weren't Arab before the 7th century?

CiteCop 21:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually CiteCop, your point illustrated genocide, not a superposition of language.Bakaman _Bakatalk 21:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Pottery

what is the relevance of the pottery section? The YV was composed in India around 1000 BC (Painted Grey Ware culture) -- the archaeological match may be very interesting on Yajurveda, but since nobody claims the Yajurveda was composed in Central Asia, the discussion of Iron Age pottery seems irrelevant to the topic of this article. Likewise, presence of Bronze and cattle (on both sides of the Hindukush) predates the IAM timeframe, so its discussion tells us nothing about the topic at hand. dab (ᛏ) 19:16, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Baudhayana Shrauta Sutra

This section does not seem to add any value to the discussion. Can this section be deleted?--UB 05:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I seems very marginal to me, but it has been given great significance by the anti-Witzel clique as proof of the unreliability of "Western scholarship". Surely it doesn't deserve a whole section. Paul B 08:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

the present wording is also completely unaware of the context. Nobody in their right mind would use the BSS as "definite proof" of anything. The context was, I believe, that after IAM had been established as likely for all the reasons discussed, BSS was quoted as the most likely candidate of a possible reflection of immigration memories in a "direct statement". I don't know the final verdict on this, but it is certain that nothing hinges on it. There is a fuller discussion on Baudhayana Shrauta Sutra, which should just be linked. Since some acadmemic fuss has been made about the passage, I suppose reference to it should be kept. Although it is clear that the episode has more to do with people enjoying having caught Witzel making a mistake than with bona fide debate. dab (ᛏ) 08:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Early Indo-Aryans

Please refer to the following sentence:

The Sumerian legend of "Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta" (late 3rd millennium BCE) and other Sumerian legends might also possibly refer to an Indo-Aryan culture or to modern East-Iran/Afghanistan/India (see Elst 1999).

The legend of "Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta" does not seem to have any relation to vedic text. I could not locate the reference mentioned. I have gone through Koenraad Elst's Indology Site. Can anybody help? --UB 09:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Some vaishnavites - for reasons I don't understand - seem to want to demonstrate a link between Sumerians and I-As. This stuff pops up on websites (over on Aryan race an editor is trying to add the claim that arya is related to a Sumerian word). Paul B 09:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

p.s. Elst discusses the story here . Paul B 09:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

this is nonsense. Elst himself admits that there is no reason to believe any of this, but then goes on to elaborate on the consequences it would have if it could be believed. If we keep this around, clearly mark it as pure speculation. dab (ᛏ) 09:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I removed the following for now, because it seems a bit marginal to me in the present form and had a "citation needed": Whether some terms of the Kassites refer to Vedic gods or names is disputed.

There is a short discussion on this in section 9 of this article --RF 11:58, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Substrate influence

The following sentence seems to be a mere speculation.

Elamite language, an extinct language of Southwestern Iran, has also often been linked to Dravidian (in a proposed Elamo-Dravidian or Zagrosian family); if this turns out to be true, it would even more strongly imply a more northerly former distribution of the Dravidian languages.

Since it is not generally accepted that Elamite language is Dravidian, we should delete this sentence.--UB 08:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, the following para does not seem to have any relation with IAM.

The early formation of political states also affects the distribution of languages. The Punjab was in historical times settled by Iranians, Greeks, Kushans (replacing Greeks and their language), and Hephthalites, yet Indo-Aryan languages dominate, probably due to the dominance of later Indian empires and states. Hence in regions where Persian and Indian empires dominated many languages died out. This process can be seen in the elimination of Saka and Tocharian languages through the influence of Persians, Buddhism (spreading Prakit language), and Turks.

--UB 11:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Elamo-Dravidian is a notable hypothesis, not mere speculation, but of course it can by no means be presented as widely accepted. It is pertinent to the topic of IAM only marginally, in as much as the IVC is brought into the debate (which is itself only marginally relevant to the topic). IVC is the likely locus of Proto-Dravidian, and assumption of Elamo-Dravidian settlement of the area between Elam and India seems plausible, and provides context. The IVC has some relevance as the origin of the linguistic substratum in Indo-Aryan, and a possible relation to Elam bears mentioning. But I agree the article should not be sidetracked too much by this sort of thing. I also agree that the second paragraph is too wordy, and it is unclear what point it is trying to make. It is enough to mention that the Hindukush is the classical invasion route into India, with a long string of known precedents. dab (ᛏ) 12:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

"much earlier"

Removing the hazy 'critics argue that the migration could have taken place much earlier than 1500 BC', I am asking myself why no reference is made to the Anatolian hypothesis: based on it, immigration as early as 3000 BC could be argued, all within a framework accepted as the main alternative to the mainstream Kurgan view. In an "out of Anatolia" view, the mature IVC could be presented as Indo-Aryan. This will have little chance of wide acceptance (chariots and horses etc.), but at least it will not be a crackpot view (like the more prevalent "Paleolithic Aryans"). I am surprised none of the "IVC must be Aryan" supporters are arguing along these lines. Of course we won't mention the possibility as long as we cannot attribute it to an author, but it seems the only way to piece together a halfway coherent argument to the effect. dab (ᛏ) 09:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

That argument is discussed in Bryant. It is obviously far more plausible than OIT, but is not as gratifying to nationalst ideology. Unfortunately I don't have my copy of the book with me, so can't cite at the moment. Paul B 09:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

OIT presumably means " out of India"? I don't know of anybody suggesting this, and it isn't even mentioned as a possibility on this article. "Indo-Aryan IVC out of Anatolia" would need to be considered orders of magnitude more likely. Linguistic mainstream will consider Indo-Iranian separation as early as 3000 BC extremely unlikely. But another possibiliy would be Indo-Iranian IVC with Iranians migrating back west after 1900 BC: this would sit very well with mainstream dating of Indo-Iranian separation. Such a scenario would be attractive to anyone convinced by Renfrew's proposal and would need to be entertained at least as a possibility. That we don't hear more of this is obviously due to the nationalist side being not interested in honest debate, they want Paleolithic Aryans in 80,000 BC, and they don't care about anything west of the Khyber Pass :) dab (ᛏ) 09:44, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with dab that Anatolian hypothesis will be much better than OIT. Unfortunately, Renfrew is silent about eastward migration. It may not satisfy the hard core nationalist but most of the others who object to IAM will be satisfied with Aryan=IVC. Can we not include it as a possible alternate theory?--UB 09:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

If Bryant discusses the possibility, I see no reason not to discuss it here. I think Renfrew himself takes the Proto-Indo-Iranians out of the Balkans in 3000 BC and moves them to Kazakhstan, so that his I-I story from 2000 BC is identical to the Kurgan one. Arguing for "I-I IVC" would require that some author says "no, Renfrew is right about Anatolian origin, but the I-Is migrated not to the steppe, but directly to the Indus Valley, which they reached by 2600". Thus, "Aryan IVC" is not directly compatible with Renfrew, but it could reasonably be proposed as a variant of Renfrew's view. Of course Misplaced Pages is not the place for original suggestions, but if anybody has argued along these lines, it would be desireable to discuss it here. dab (ᛏ) 09:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Horse and chariot

I find that the article on Introduction of the horse to South Asia states that:

It should however also be noted that other sites like the BMAC complex (which some consider nevertheless as Indo-Aryan) are at least as poor in horse remains as the Harappan sites.

It also includes 2 references (Bryant & Thapar)

Also, I may be wrong but I have not seen any reference to any archaeological site prior to Mauryan period which has significant remains of horse.

In light of these facts, can remains of horse be used in any way to either prove or disprove IAM? --UB 09:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

there are plenty of horse remains from as early as 4000 BC in the Pontic Steppe. That's the whole point of the Kurgan argument. See also domestication of the horse. To imply "either BMAC or IVC" as this passage does is a false dichotomy. BMAC was 'urban', and the horse in those days (2000 BC) was the hallmark of nomadic pastoralists. So while some people suggest the BMAC was infiltrated by Indo-Iranians, I don't think it is likely that BMAC is the origin of Indo-Iranians: urban cultures don't erupt in explosive population expansions (at least not in pre-modern times), the classical mater gentium has always been the steppe. In India, the Swat culture has undisputed evidence of the horse, and both in location (Gandhara) and date (1600 BC) is the perfect candidate for early I-A (Rigvedic) presence in India. The 'inventory' of Rigvedic culture was definitely present in India by 1500 BC. The question is whether it can be argued that it had already been present in 2500 BC. dab (ᛏ) 09:44, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I was trying to look for any reference to sudden increase in horse remains in India corrosponding to the migration. However, I only find stray reference of one or two horse remains in IVC, Swat culture and other subsequent culture. So, the point is, can horse remains be used to argue either pro or anti IAM?--UB 10:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

yes, they can: without horses (and chariots), no Rigveda. If the IVC people could be shown to have been moving about in horse-drawn chariots, the case for 2nd millennium IAM would be pretty much destroyed and the debate would be reduced to glottochronology. To the best of our knowledge, the horse drawn chariot was invented around 2000 BC, in NW Kazakhstan: if this is true, the Rigveda can impossibly be older than 2000 BC, plus the time needed to migrate from the Oxus to the Indus (hence, 1600 BC). If people would discover horse-drawn chariots in 2600 BC Harappa, this argument would just collapse. dab (ᛏ) 10:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... But what you have stated is true for chariot and not necessarily for horse. You have stated earlier that horse remains dates back to 4000 BC. So, horse remain in Harappa by itself may not be a problem. Any way horse is not of Indian origin.--UB 11:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know remains in India are very few and it is not always easy to distinguish them from remains of the native Onager. Paul B 11:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

evidence of domesticated horses dates to as early as 4000 BC (maybe 3500, there is dispute there too; of course wild horses go back as far as you like in their native steppes). This refers to the Caspian-Pontic steppes, and not to Harappa. Yes, the chariot thing is more conclusive, but even uncontrovertible evidence of horses (not onagers) in 3rd millennium IVC would seriously affect our timeframe here. The horse is not known to have been domesticated outside the steppes anywhere before 2000 BC, and it spread together with the chariot: keep in mind that horses back then were much smaller, and almost useless as mounts, so that before the introduction of the chariot there was no reason to bother importing them to areas to which they were not native. The chariot suddenly made the horse extremely valuable militarily, and the Near Eastern empires show strong interest in them from about 1800 BC. It stands to reason that the same chronology holds for India, unless the opposite is clearly demonstrable from the archaeological record. dab (ᛏ) 11:52, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Dab is right here that there are unquestationable evidence of horses ( & not onagers ) in 3rd Millenium IVC. In IVC, pottery of wheels are found and also bullock carts. Since, wooden chariots will not be available to us from IVC excavations ; there should be no doubts that IVC people can ever make two wheeled chariots. So, in above photo by making years of 3rd millenium for IVC India; the picture becomes very clear that IVC was first to make chariots.Due to this technological plus point over steppe nomads they could spread very fast with their other IVC technological advantages. WIN 12:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

presence of bullock carts in the IVC is undisputed and meaningless to the debate. There is no evidence at all for chariots, and claims of IVC horse remains are believed by few archaeologists apart from those who make them. Your statement that "the picture becomes very clear that IVC was first to make chariots" is therefore completely wrong. There is no reason whatsoever to assume chariots for the IVC except for the desire to score points in the IAM debate. In scholarship (unlike politics), a desire to score points is not a strong argument in favour of anything. dab (ᛏ) 12:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Aryan theory was propogated without any evidences of archeology or texts. It was proposed by linguists like Max Muller were not having solid evidences ( except some linguistic similarity )for AIT. But, they never thought of reverse OIT because of superiority complex which was developed after European dark age.But British Raj developed this theory to achieve political & conversion goals without checking Indian side. But, when you are finding more & more evidences which goes against this theory ; you are telling Indian side as political motivated ! Then, what will you tell for those non-Indian scholars who are opposing this theory ? WIN 09:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

we know by now you don't like the theory, WIN. Feel free to cite Indo-Europeanists or archaeologists (Indian or non-Indian) suggesting "OIT", but your conspiracy theories are simply not of interest. dab (ᛏ) 09:40, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

WIN, we all know that there are many holes in IAM. However, the alternate OIT has far too many holes, many more than IAM, to be acceptable. There has to be some explanation other than these two! --UB 04:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not saying that OIT means ancient Indians went to Europe and their descendents are Europeans.There is Oppenheimer's genology report but it's timeline is 40,000 BC for ancient India to Europe.

Just think that after going through Sanskrit it was learnt that there is some connections in words of European languages with Sanskrit. Refer this http://digilander.libero.it/toponomastica/ie-roots.html which says about IE roots. In it you can notice that for most of IE root , Sanskrit is cited first. I , myself , has notice some European language words which are exactly similar in Indo-Aryan languages but it's not exact Sanskrit word. Sanskrit daru 'wood' is Hittite taru. But same taru is word in my Indo-Aryan language mothertongue but rarely used now for mentioning tree. And, remember Hittite is very old language than present Romance languages. Welsh dol 'valley', Gothic dal 'valley' - I cite here my Indo-Aryan language Dol = bucket ( similar meaning with valley ) & dhal = human shield used during war ( it's shape is spherical ). Sanskrit dva-rah ( Eng.door )- Albanian derë . In my Indo-Aryan language door = darvaj , delë ( this delë word is used in rural vocab. )

In newer European languages such changes are wider or unrecognizable than Indo-Aryan languages. So, you should understand that how IE words are tied to IE root , same way Indo-Aryan languages are also having similar word developments. Since, Indo-Aryan languages are in Sanskrit base area ; their words changes are not such abrupt like European languages.

In word reading also, devnagari script is so perfect that pronunciation will be same always. Not like cut & put. Any person who can read devnageri script will pronounce same irrespective of knowing that language or word. Development of such a script requires profound & deep knowledge same as development of Sanskrit as a language. WIN 06:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

WIN, what has that got to do with anything? Believe me, I am familiar with IE reconstruction. Also, Devanagari emerged from AD 1200. Yes, it's a nice abugida perfectly suited for Sanskrit. But what does that have to do with IE or AIM? Please stop spamming talkpages with completely unrelated stuff, and please recognize that copy-pasting random factoids is no replacement for solid education. dab (ᛏ) 09:08, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Your point about Sanskrit is clear. However, for the purpose of this article we need to answer the following questions.

• Does the similarity of language imply a common origin (PIE)? (if yes, then)

• Did this language spread without movement of the people? (if no, then)

 For above answers, I suggest to read online book http://www.bharatvani.org/books/ait/  which gives more detailed knowledge than written here.   WIN 08:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• Did the original speaker of this language come into India from outside or did they go out of India to other places? (if the answer is they came to India, then)
• When did they come?

--UB 08:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

genetically, Indians descend to some 80% from the paleolithic population of India, just like Europeans to 80% descend from paleolithic (pre-IE) European populations. The AIM would have accounted for a population shift of at best 10% (in rough numbers, just to gesture at the orders of magnitude involved: various tribes totalling around 200k souls infiltrating some 2-3 million pre I-A people in N India). Many people outraged by the notion of "AIM" do not realize this. Languages do not spread entirely without population movement, but they may spread by relatively modest population movements. The main part of "AIM" takes place inside India, with gradual expansion of I-A culture from the Punjab over the whole subcontinent. With all the fuss about Central Asian origins, this much more notable process of "Sanskritization of the Subcontinent" in (early) historical times is sometimes almost forgotten. dab (ᛏ) 09:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

It is an interesting point. After all Swat valley to Bengal is about 2000 km. It is almost the same distance from Swat valley to Mesopotamia!! However, if you believe in PCT then the situation is a little different. Are there any fundamental problem with PCT?--UB 12:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, travelling from the Oxus to Bengal, Gandhara is merely the first stage. Most of the actual IAM took place within India. The PCT article has been waiting for expansion for some time now. At first glance it seems like a European version of the "OIT", i.e. patent nonsense (naive identification of genetic ancestry with linguistic history). We had Guparra (talk · contribs) announcing he would show there was more behind it, but he never followed up on that. I think I would like to coin the term autochthonism here: PCT supporters in Italy make essentially the same claims as the "Paleolithic Aryans" crowd, they just differ in Eurocentric vs. India-centric flavour. dab (ᛏ) 15:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

"At Bactria NorthWest Afghanistan alabaster plates decorated with a humped bull in the Indus or Harappan style, at Bactrian graves Harappan steatite seals, etched Carnelian beads, a cosmetic flacon having an exact parallel at Chanhudaro, pins with spiral, metal mirrors that parallel ones found in the Indus." - There are similarities in archeology findings of BMAC & Indus valley civilization. If IVC people had such impact on life of BMAC people then how & why they will adopt any `central asian' Sanskrit ? Why such points are kept under dark ? Logic is not used but negation. Read more about IVC seal at http://www.indoeurohome.com/ WIN 13:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

that's most interesting to the topic of IVC, but maybe also to IAM: Are you suggesting even the IVC people had connections to Central Asia? Are you arguing for "Dravidian migration" now? BMAC-IVC contacts may indeed have a bearing on IAM: the Hindukush would appear an even more trivial obstacle, and the "Proto-Dasa" of Parpola may indeed be found in the BMAC. Of course you are linking to just another crackpot site, but I do think it would be interesting if IVC influence on the BMAC could be established. dab (ᛏ) 16:22, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

For you it seems that there was only "one way" road leading to India and not vice versa. As per you, IVC Indians were not capable of crossing Hindukush mountains. I would call Parpola's "Proto-Dasa" theory as crack pot indeed. It means that Indian subcontinent's more than 1 billion people's ancient roots were in central asia and ancient India was populated first by central asian dravidians and then some small % ( around 10% as per you ) by central asian aryans !!! Ancient India was no-man's land and current Indians' forefather came from central asia or BMAC area !!! Wow, how deeply logical and scholarly opinion !!!

Now, I am very much sure about your shallow level of logical understanding. IVC people can do business by sea route to Mesepotamia but they can not travel by road to nearby BMAC area !!! Ha, Ha , Ha !!! Then, as per your logic finding IVC seals in Mesepotamia was due to ancient Mesepotamian ships coming to IVC docks as IVC ships were not capable of going to mesepotamia !!! Sea trade was in " one way " direction !!!

I can only say that, clean dust of " one way " thinking which is without any in-depth logic. WIN 05:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Substrate influence

This section looks a little long and out of context. It is not clear with this section is trying to prove. Can anybody help in making it more readable and more to the point? --UB 12:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture - Edwin Bryant

I was reading parts of this book through Google Book and came across the following para on page 44:

"Until very recently, Western scholars, whose primary emphasis and concern, at least historically, have been the origins of Western civilization, have renegotiated and reconfigured the pre- and protohistory of other nations such as India as by-products of their investigations. Yet for the most part, they have not been exposed to concerns over, and responses to their formulations expressed by the native scholars from those countries. India, in particular, initiated the whole field of Indo-European studies when it's language and rich culture were "discovered" by Western scholars. Yet opinions from that country, especially if in disagreement with the more forceful voices in the West, are poorly understood or cursorily dismissed." --UB 10:50, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's the principal topic of the book. Read it, though I warn you it's not an easy read, even though Bryant is a clear and jargon-free writer. It's rather a frustrating text in many ways due to Bryant's desire to put the best gloss on every possible point of view (though he draws the line at P.N. Oak). Taking views of Indian writers "seriously" should mean treating them in exactly the same way as Western writers, who also include cranks, nationalists and fundamentalists as well as unorthodox but genuine scholars. After all the Greek indigenists are no no more accepted in the West than the Indian indigenists. Paul B 11:19, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Iron Age Vedic Civilization ?

I have deleted `iron age' word from first sub-heading write up. In India, iron of carbon dating 1800 BC is found in central ganga plains. So, one can not tell 100% surely that central asian nomadic aryans brought Iron smelting technology. Refer http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/iron-ore.html

In Vedic Civilization article, read People and Society section. It's mentioned something like - people started learning agriculture etc. Initial aryan people were tribal type and learnt agriculture - obviously after they came from central asia to Indian subcontinent. But,that time ancient Indians were already reaping rich agricultural output to feed many trading IVC towns. If aryans had to learn basic subject like agriculture from IVC Indians or develop indigeniously without IVC Indians contact, then how can they have knowledge of maths, astronomy,life science, metallurgy etc. with high language like Sanskrit's development skill ?

So, in which way these aryans can impose or make ancient Indians to adopt Sanskrit ?

So, obviously Rig-Ved depicts very ancient time period of India. Because after IVC period, IVC Indians just migrated from arid regions to greener regions carrying their accumulated knowledge with them. But that trading based affluency to make planned cities was absent.

Give me only one example of some tribal people who were sucessful in imposing their language & culture on civilized nation. WIN 06:04, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

WIN, when will you realize that you don't have the beginning of a clue about these things. Read Iron Age. Learn that the Iron Age doesn't begin with the first iron artefact dug up. Please, I am sure you have an area of expertise; what is your job? I am sure you can be really helpful in helping build articles in some area you understand. dab (ᛏ) 08:11, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I know about Iron Age but the wordings in the article was such that it gives impression that Iron Age began after `coming' of some aryans from central asia. And, to rectify that I have written above point. I know that Vedas mentions different colors of ayas i.e. eng. metal like yellow, black etc. So, obviously yellow isn't color of iron. But bronze or gold. I am not having `one way' thinking like you !

And, instead why don't you comment about Aryans' other above point ? WIN 10:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

you are an imaginative person WIN. Unfortunately, we are trying to write an encyclopedia here. Nobody claims the "Aryans introduced Iron". Occasional iron artefacts were known even in the Bronze Age. The Iron Age begins with societies relying on iron metalwork. This happened much later than any suggested period of IAM, namely around 1000 BC. Yes, there may be single IVC iron artefacts dating to 2000 BC, just like there are Egyptian iron artefacts dating to 3500 BC. This still doesn't mean the Iron Age began then. But I shouldn't be telling you this, since you are not here to learn, of course, but to preach your "truth". Where do you get your ideas, WIN? From crackpot websites? From your Swami? From foaming redneck politicians? Because you sure as hell don't get them from reputable scholarship. Which is the only sort of evidence that you'll have no problem introducing to Misplaced Pages, thank goodness:

WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A PLACE TO PUBLISH YOUR NEW IDEAS

WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A PLACE TO PUBLISH YOUR OPINIONS

thank you and goodbye. (ᛎ) qɐp 12:17, 28 August 2006 (UTC)