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Talk:West Bank barrier

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Nableezy (talk | contribs) at 04:54, 21 July 2016 (→Security vs. Separation). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Construction

Any information on the companies that are fabricating it?

Financial/Budget Cost of the Barrier? ===

Why is there no financial cost data? How much does this thing cost, both incurred so far and projected future costs?

Fence for Life

The Fence for Life stuff repeatedly added by User:Gilsrafnorn was first introduced by the long-banned Zeq in 2006. Gilsrafnorn's failure to even check if the URL is still active is not reassuring as to intent to build an encyclopedia. Incidentally, exactly the same text appears in a book here, but it may have been plagiarised from here rather than the other way around. In any case, the text is unacceptably hagiographic and the organization is almost absent from English publications. To see what this non-notable organization actually proposed, see here; as well as the huge land-grab from the fence itself, all of the Jordan Valley is an additional "Israeli control zone". Zero 14:42, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

As you can see here, the organization was not absent in English publications before Israel started to build the fence (other sources are dead links, unfortunately), while the reliable book of Gabriel Tabarani shows the civil organization was a considerable factor in pressuring the government to build the fence, especially after the Dolphinarium attack (barrier route is a different issue). Other less notable events are included in the timeline, so Fence for Life at least deserves a mention. At the same time, the report of Israel's state comptroller's in July 2002 was removed by Qualitatis without explanation or discussion.--Gilsrafnorn (talk) 22:47, 27 December 2015 (UTC) blocked sockpuppet.
I didn't say it was absent, I said it was almost absent. However, it is completely absent from the article you linked to. This organization deserves maybe one sentence in the article. The two mentions you added including the long paragraph which you edit-warred back in that still contains the same dead link you obviously didn't bother to check is utterly unacceptable. As far as I can see your mentions of "Fence for Life" are entirely unsourced. Zero 23:49, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Misleading

"Opponents object to a route that in some places substantially deviates eastward from the Green Line"--this sounds like a white wash. In fact most of the wall (85%) is on Palestinian Land eastward of the Green Line---not just in "some places." Tell the truth, fellow editors! 2601:645:8300:2BB7:5906:1F70:C28F:68F8 (talk) 23:00, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

A length of 700km that displaces an area of 77,000 ha (770 km^2) has an average displacement width of 1.1 km relative to a base length , or about 0.15% or 1/636th of the length.
One length (e.g., "separation barrier") can be said to "mostly follow" another length (e.g., "Green Line") if the average displacement area between the lengths is 0.15% or 1/636th of the length, under any normal, common, consistent and rational use of the words "mostly" and "follow" or the phrase "mostly follow."
The barrier "mostly follows" the Green Line is accurate just like a river is "mostly shallow" if it is, on average, one foot deep. Both are, simply, true. Just because a person can still drown in a river that is "mostly shallow" and, on average, 1 foot deep, the barrier could diverge significantly from the Green Line in "some places" yet still "mostly follow" it.
I concur that editors should tell the truth: the barrier "mostly follows" the Green Line; "partly follows" is misleading. Intent Latte Guests (talk) 13:33, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
See WP:ARBPIA3#500/30. Sepsis II (talk) 17:51, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
My comment was about the subject matter. Your response was about the editorial permission policies. I was not making a comment about editorial permission policies: I was making a comment about the subject matter. This thread is agnostic w.r.t. the editorial permission policies. Intent Latte Guests (talk) 20:31, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
You arent allowed to edit this article or its talk page per the link above. nableezy - 23:19, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
You also aren't allowed to use multiple accounts. Sepsis II (talk) 00:01, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

Lede edits

@Galatz:, I fail to understand your characterization of my edits as POV. Can you explain? Al-Andalusi (talk) 20:05, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Sure.
Firstly by adding that was unilaterally you are implying Israel has no right to do this. There is a huge section on legality within the article, and by putting one POV in the lead only, its a violation of WP:POV.
Second you replaced The Israeli government argues that it protects civilians from suicide bombings and other terror attacks that increased significantly during the Second Intifada with The wall was built during the Second Intifada that began in September 2000, and was presented by the Israeli government as necessary to stop the wave of violence inside Israel that the uprising had brought with it. The wording "was presented as" implies its not true and its just what they are saying. - Galatz 20:17, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
You understood "unilateral" as implying "illegality", but that is NOT the meaning the word. Unilaterally is calling it the way it is. A one-sided move. Unless you want to claim that the other side did in fact agree to it? Similarly, you reject "presented" because it "implies its not true and its just what they are saying". I find your objection ironic considering that WP:POV, the policy which you cited as your reason for your revert, precisely states that opinions should be attributed and not presented as true facts. Now, are you going to self-revert? Al-Andalusi (talk) 20:36, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
I don't even understand your argument. Thats nothing like what I said - Galatz 20:53, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
Thats exactly what you said. You wrote unilaterally implies Israel has no right to do this. No, it implies they did it without agreement from the Palestinians, as that would be bilaterally. Unilateral just means they did it themselves (oh and whether they have a right to do it seems kind of settled law). nableezy - 21:36, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
By specifically stating that it was unilateral though implies that it should have been bilateral, which is not the case. - Galatz 00:24, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
No, it absolutely does not, that makes no sense. It does not give any indication of what should happen, only what did happen. And as far as not the case, again thats kind of settled legally speaking, it was found to be a war crime. And that, upon reviewing the lead, is conspicuously absent from it. Ill be adding material on its legality to the lead shortly per WP:LEDE and WP:NPOV. nableezy - 00:55, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
Galatz, I think you're 100% wrong about "unilaterally". When something happens along an international border, it typically happens by agreement of the two parties or it happens by action of one party (unilaterally). The wall was built unilaterally. I don't see how stating that implies it should have been done differently or that the party acting had no right to do so. I wonder if you may be projecting.
The change in the second paragraph (from "The Israeli government argues that it protects civilians from suicide bombings and other terror attacks that increased significantly during the Second Intifada." to "The wall was built during the Second Intifada that began in September 2000, and was presented by the Israeli government as necessary to stop the wave of violence inside Israel that the uprising had brought with it.") seems to me to put the wall in better historical context by putting the intifada before the wall. I don't see how "presented" makes Israel seem any more or less trustworthy than "argues". If you do, please explain. I recommend reading the guideline WP:SAY. Please keep in mind that we can wordsmith the sentence. — Malik Shabazz /Stalk 02:44, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
If you read the section in the article about the Security Council it clearly states their only issue with it is where it deviates from the green line. Their issue isnt that they did it unilaterally not bilaterally. The barrier along the Gaza border, which follows the line there, was also done unilaterally and no one complains about it. When Israel said they were going to build a barrier along the Egypt border they also didn't ask Egypt for permission. Why is this barrier different?
For your second point, I understand they might fall under WP:SAY but you also must consider the WP:IMPARTIAL tone. One read in a way that they are presenting it but its not true, the other one read in a way that its only stating their argument. There is a difference between wordsmith and changing the meaning. I dont have a problem with adding historical context, that wasn't where my issue was. - Galatz 13:12, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
Although other editors and myself don't see the issue with "presented", I will restore the wording with "defended" instead. I think it is important that the article say this was seen as a temporary measure at the time. Al-Andalusi (talk) 22:45, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Galatz, it is just you arguing against this, and there isnt any dispute about what the word unilaterally means and that it unquestionably applies here. Your argument doesnt make any sense, it depends on supposed implications that do not exist. nableezy - 22:35, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

"Unilateral" is a simple uncontested fact and one of the more notable characteristics of this structure. I don't see the case against the word. Zero 00:24, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

OR

Regarding

but as Israel chose not to accept ICJ jurisdiction nor make oral statements, the opinion was advisory rather than binding.

that is both OR and complete nonsense. The opinion of the ICJ was advising the General Assembly on the legality of the wall under international law. It being an "advisory opinon" isnt due to Israel not making oral statements. It was an advisory opinion because it came in response to a request from the UN General Assembly. nableezy - 01:01, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Security vs. Separation

The Security wall, barrier, fence, was built to stop suicide bombings. Period. Pro-Palestinian nationalist propagandist POV pushing to turn this into an apartheid-type barrier separating people based on religion or ethnicity, won't succeed. KamelTebaast 04:37, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

This is discussed several times in the archives, and despite your belief that is not a factual statement but a contested POV. nableezy - 04:53, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
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