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RfC: Should Putin's December 23 press conference statement be included or excluded?

By breadth of support, there were 14 editors who supported inclusion of Putin's response and 4 who opposed inclusion. Argumentation saw equally valid presentations on both sides, however, the significant breadth of support in favor of inclusion helps to establish a clear consensus. That said, there was widespread agreement, on both sides, that inclusion should not come in the form of a verbatim quote but a summary or paraphrase of the essential elements of the statement. The consensus is that Vladimir Putin's December 23 response should be included in this article in an abbreviated, summarized, or paraphrased form, but not as a direct quote. DarjeelingTea (talk) 13:02, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

At a December 23 press conference, Vladimir Putin responded to claims of Russian involvement in the 2016 U.S. election: " are losing on all fronts and looking elsewhere for things to blame. In my view this, how shall I say it, degrades their own dignity. You have to know how to lose with dignity." Does Putin's response belong in the article? (I am doing this as an RfC because the existing discretionary sanctions on American Politics effectively give anyone veto power over any material merely by deleting it, regardless of how flimsy the rationale for deletion may be—although in practice this is constantly abused and inconsistently enforced.)TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:33, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

References

  1. Filipov, David (2016-12-23). "Putin to Democratic Party: You lost, get over it". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2016-12-26.

Survey – Putin response

  • Support adding Putin's response. This material was deleted as "wp:undue" by User:Volunteer Marek, but it's hard for me to imagine how WP:UNDUE could apply to Putin's own response to allegations that he personally interfered in the U.S. election.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:37, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Support This direct quote by Putin directly pertaining to the issue (in an article devoid of quotes by Putin) certainly is appropriate under the "Commentary and Reaction" section, the "Russian Government" sub-section, as originally entered by TheTimesAreAChanging. There currently is no direct quote by the man directly implicated in these actions and this one is notable, well-sourced, and encyclopedic. Marteau (talk) 04:25, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose this is a distraction. Obviously, Russia denies this and is trying to make this about the election and not about the violations committed by their intelligence and disinformation agencies. - Scarpy (talk) 05:57, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
You have cited a political, but not an encyclopedic, reason for excluding the statement of an alleged perpetrator of the action the article is devoted to. Your guess as to what Putin's motives are is irrelevant. The direct statement of the alleged perpetrator of the activity the article is devoted to is 100% completely relevant and 100% deserving of inclusion in the "Reaction and Commentary" sub-section. Marteau (talk) 06:31, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
Obviously US politicians and officials never do this. That's what makes their opinions so reliable. Guccisamsclub (talk) 11:58, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
I'm hesitant to respond here. I will remind you to assume good faith, and to pay close attention to comments before responding. If you'd like to have a two-sided conversation, I'm all for it. If you want to go off on tangents, there are other contributors to this article what will likely indulge you. - Scarpy (talk) 06:44, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Support. It is clearly one of the more notable statements in the "Commentary and Reaction" section. It has received more than enough enough coverage in the non-Russian press. This despite the fact that (a) it's very recent (b) national media coverage is necessarily skewed toward reporting on statements made by domestic politicians (i.e. not Putin), something which has to be taken into account per wp:systemicbias. If it were up to me, the "reaction" section would be down to a paragraph, and a lot of the less-than-informative commentary (including this taunting by Putin) would go. since that does not appear to be in the cards, Putin's statement from his major annual press conference must be kept per WP:DUE. Guccisamsclub (talk) 11:52, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Support - I think we have to include a brief mention of this based on the widespread coverage in reliable sources, even though it's empty posturing and diversionary.- MrX 18:29, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
Can you be a little bit more specific about what you mean by "brief"? Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:34, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
Yes. We can simply summarize what he said. For example, "Putin accused Democrats of seeking someone to blame for their defeat". Quoting him directly is just lazy writing.- MrX 15:02, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
That seems like a good idea, especially since we weren't quoting him directly but rather giving a translation of what he said in Russian. (There's a different translation with essentially the same or similar meaning on the President of Russia webcite.) --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:08, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Support – Statement is obviously relevant, and widely cited in RS, Volunteer Marek's POV notwithstanding. Suggest a WP:SNOW close. — JFG 08:42, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose – It wasn't specified what "all fronts" meant. For example, one of those fronts could be the war in Syria. Putin's comments about the elections accusations came a little later in the reliable source.
" Putin dismissed suggestions Moscow had helped Trump to victory in any way however.
  'It's not like that,' he said. 'All of this (the accusations) speaks of the current administration's systemic problems.' "
--Bob K31416 (talk) 16:59, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
The quote you just gave, together with his point elsewhere about the the substance of the leaks being more important than the identity of the leakers, is IMO more substantive and measured than the stuff about politicians not being "graceful." The latter is too close to the shrill rants from ex-spies about the "hideousness" of Trump's treatment of their courageous colleagues. Guccisamsclub (talk) 10:18, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
I think there's a problem with your RfC proposal because the given source doesn't clearly indicate that the quote is about the elections. The fact that you had to go to other sources, seems to admit that your given source is inadequate. You might try making a proposal that is correctly sourced by using material from the sources in your recent message above and we'll see if it works. --Bob K31416 (talk) 04:20, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
I had no idea that the one source I gave could be so misconstrued, or that we were going to be this pedantic. I have replaced Reuters with the Washington Post of the same day, which uses the same Putin quote but is even more unequivocal regarding its meaning.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 05:48, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose While it would be appropriate to include a well-sourced statement that Putin denies Russian involvement in the hacking, that is not what this RfC would provide. This RfC promotes the clearly UNDUE and irrelevant fact that Putin denigrates the Democrats. Per my statement and others in the discussion section below, editors should oppose this WP:POINTy RfC and we should instead follow policy to include appropriate accounts of Putin's denial. SPECIFICO talk 19:12, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose to including as direct quotation. This should be mentioned, but only briefly summarized as the fact that Putin denied the claim. I do not see any reason for including direct quotation here. He is not a Cicero, and the statements adds nothing to the simple fact of denial beyond disparaging other people. The only reason to include quotation is to disparage democrats, which is not the purpose of WP.My very best wishes (talk) 21:03, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
It's also not the purpose of Misplaced Pages to exclude quotes just because they disparage Democrats. If the quote is notable enough, it should be included, either in direct or paraphrased form. -Thucydides411 (talk) 22:17, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
So, why exactly anyone would consider this quotation notable? This is just a slander that provides zero information. Saying that, I realize that certain slander can be notable (e.g. "shoot the rabid dogs!" by Andrey Vyshinsky or "kill them in an toilet" by Putin) as described in numerous books. However, I do not see why that particular slander would be notable. My very best wishes (talk) 05:48, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
If the Russian President makes a public statement on alleged Russian hacking, then it's inherently notable. The evidence for that notability is the wide press coverage Putin's remarks have received. It doesn't matter if you consider the content of those remarks to be "slander that provides zero information." A lot of people think President Obama's statements on the issue, and the statements of his intelligence agencies, are also slander that provide zero information. But they're notable, as evidenced by the press coverage they've received. The only possible reason to exclude this information, that I can see, is political. -Thucydides411 (talk) 17:54, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Yes, the claim (the denial) is notable or at least deserve to be noted on the page. However, the quotation is not notable. It might became notable in a year from now (just as in two my examples above) if it will be mentioned in books on the subject. My very best wishes (talk) 16:05, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
@Volunteer Marek: Could you please help me understand your reasoning behind invoking WP:UNDUE on this? "UNDUE" is of course very broadly writter, and it is not clear to me what aspect of the "undue" policy you think including this quote violates. Marteau (talk) 22:55, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
Sure. This isn't an article about "Putin's opinions about the Democratic Party of the United States". Which makes inclusion of this quote POVFORKish. Like I said, his denial of Russian involvement is of course DUE, but his opinions about the Dems, is not.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:58, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment: If this is "undue" for the reasons given by Volunteer Marek et al., so is roughly 90% of the "Reactions" section, which has little to do with the narrow question of whether or not the hackers were employed by the Russian state. Editors are being highly selective--per wp:systemicbias--in what they consider "undue." Putin's other point was that it's not who stole the emails, but what's in them. Remember that Putin himself tried push the same "our enemies did it" line as the Democrats when the Panama papers came out, to distract from the contents of the docs. Would pointing that out also be "undue"? Remember that this article is about Russian "interference in the election", not Russia's "interference in the DNC's IT infrastructure." Therefore the broader political issues can't be dismissed, and in fact are not dismissed by RS. Guccisamsclub (talk) 01:15, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Ummmmmm.... that's actually not true at all. Blatantly not true. Can you *specifically* which parts of the "Reactions" section have "little to do" with the Russian interference in the US election? Because when I read it, it looks like all of is precisely about that. (And seriously, trying to distinguish between "Russian interference in US election" and "Russian interference in DNC structure" is just silly) Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:29, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
"Former CIA director Michael Morell said foreign interference in U.S. elections was an existential threat and called it the "political equivalent" of the September 11 attacks". Let's see: an ex-spy saying "its 911!" is wp:due and relevant; a sitting president saying that the Democrats have used the "Russian interference" angle as a distraction from their political mistakes and from the content of the emails is off-topic. Did I get that about right? Finally there is nothing silly about the distinction: Russian "interference in the election" encompasses everything from hacking to fundamentally compromising the electoral process. Some others (rough irrelevance score, with Putin's remarks as the 60% baseline): Trump on WMD (60%); Trump on China (100%); ex-CIA Little on Trump disrespecting CIA heroes (100%); ex-CIA Harlow on Trump's "hideousness" (100%); Clinton on Putin's personal vendetta (50%); McElvaine calling for intervention by the electoral college (50%) because it's the worst scandal ever (a year ago, the worst was "Benghazi-gate", if memory serves); probably a few others I was too lazy to cite. Guccisamsclub (talk) 10:05, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
You said, quote, "90% of the "Reactions" section, which has little to do with the narrow question of whether or not the hackers were employed by the Russian state". You haven't actually managed to substantiate that at all, just made up some numbers. Here, let me respond (irrelevance score, with Putin's remarks as the 87.456% baseline):
Ex-CIA director (3.455%), Trump on WMD (8.334%), Trump on China (actually barely mentioned) (100*(sqr(2)/5.7)%), ex-CIA Little on Trump disrespecting CIA heroes (actually disrespecting CIA assessment of the hack) (2x+y=2.8, x=y, .01*x%), ex-CIA Harlow (actually not Trump's hideousness, but that the dispute is hideousness, please read that correctly) (.01*(e^2)/2*e^1.1%), Clinton on Putin's vendetta (.01*lim (x--> inf) (5*(x^4)+6)/(6*(x^4)+3*(x^3)+2x)... %), McElvaine calling for intervention (4.9494949494949494949494949494949494949494949494949494949439494949494%).
See how that works? Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:10, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
FWIW, it doesn't look like the two of you are discussing your issue in terms of the policy WP:UNDUE, which begins with,
"Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources."
--Bob K31416 (talk) 03:46, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Support including mention of this. However the 'quote' is not a quote, but a translation, so it doesn't really seem to belong. I think we can describe his statements as blaming and criticizing the Democrats and denying the Russia's involvement (as opposed to simply saying that he denied Russian involvement), but any English version of what he said cannot, by definition be a quote. We shouldn't try to present it as such. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 16:15, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
FYI, MrX suggested above, "Putin accused Democrats of seeking someone to blame for their defeat." --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:53, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
* Support including the citation as proposed by TheTimesAreAChanging. There is a whole section of the article dedicated to whether Putin personally or not directed the hacks. He has responded to these accusations, which makes it relevant, and he has been quoted by a number of WP:RS. It's a no-brainer.XavierItzm (talk) 10:33, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Support but shorten. I agree with Volunteer Marek about WP:UNDUE. Half of this quote isn't really about Russia's involvement in the U.S. election but a snarky comment about Democrats' dignity. And the remaining part can probably be adequately summarized without quotation. Putin denied Russia's involvement and criticized the Democrats for casting blame. That should do it. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:27, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Support Since we have an entire article devoted to an unproven allegation against Putin, it is due weight to include the few sentences where he responds. TFD (talk) 04:18, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Support As Trump and Putin are the two main accused, any statement by them is relevant. JS (talk) 19:28, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Support but shorten (significantly). I agree with Dr. Fleischman & Volunteer Marek re: UNDUE. Neutrality 22:15, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Support but paraphrase per MrX suggestion above (Putin accused Democrats of seeking someone to blame for their defeat). Pincrete (talk) 01:05, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Support (summoned by bot) as an aspect of the incident that has been widely reported, but ideally with the quote shortened or paraphrased. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:39, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

References

Separately but relatedly, it's also incorrect to frame the issue of whether "Putin's own response should be included" — his response already is included, under "Reactions: Russian government," we clearly and specifically note what Putin's representatives have said (denied that Russia participated, termed accusation "nonsense") and additional quote Russian foreign minister Lavrov as well. Neutrality 03:52, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
Why would it be preferable to cite only "Putin's representatives," but not the man himself—especially when a CIA-connected journalist told ABC Putin was "personally involved"?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:02, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
In light of the malformed presentation, I suggest somebody archive this and that if OP wishes to pursue the RfC a properly stated and formatted version be presented. SPECIFICO talk 03:58, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
Only in American Politics, folks.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:02, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
If you move your argumentation out of the question section (to the comments or threaded discussion section), that would in my view fix the problem. This is a pretty simple thing to do to follow pretty simple RfC rules. Neutrality 04:12, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
We're only going to have a problem a month from now if this RfC is not properly set forth. I am going to post on AN asking for assistance. The cherrypicked statement by Putin on the 23rd is not about the hacking, it's another in his denigrations of the Democrats and by implication Sec'y Clinton, for whom he has longstanding animosity. There are RS accounts of Putin denying Russian involvement in the hacking and it's appropriate to say Russia denied the conclusions of the US Gov't, but this RfC is misstated and cites Putin's off-topic dissembling on a different subject. This needs to be closed and a proper RfC or edit -- on the topic of this article -- added to the talk page or article. SPECIFICO talk 16:27, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
The premise of the RfC that "Vladimir Putin responded to claims of Russian involvement in the 2016 U.S. election" with the given quote, is not supported by the reliable source. Presentation of Putin's response to accusations came a little later in the reliable source, as indicated in my comment in the survey section. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:14, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
That's why this RfC is a hot mess. Even if the putative outcome were "support" it would not relate to the relevant matter, namely that Putin has denied involvement. So any supporting !votes here are supporting an undue off-topic and irrelevant statement. That's why we need to shut this down and mount a properly stated RfC, although frankly, as others have stated, the posting of this RfC seems like an argumentative and WP:POINTy reaction to @Volunteer Marek:'s appropriate reversion of the off-topic content. Is there an Admin in the house? Please can't we get this straight? OP has been asked to edit, but at this point we have responses and it is too late for OP to correct this. SPECIFICO talk 17:41, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
Not sure if admins intervene in this type of situation. In the meantime, you might consider adding your opinion to the survey section and hope that more will see the problem with this RfC and oppose it --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:01, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
I will do that, thank you, but I will also challenge any close that purports to endorse off-topic article content due to the disruptive malformed statement of the RfC. SPECIFICO talk 19:08, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
As documented below, Bob K31416 and SPECIFICO are playing with fantasies rather than facts, and SPECIFICO is the only one being disruptive (while threatening further disruption). Putin's remarks are apparently so damaging to the narrative these editors seek to promote that they find it easier to assimilate them into their worldview by assiduously denying that Putin said what everyone else heard him say (Russia's official transcript be damned!).TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:55, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sure what kind of alternate universe Bob K31416 and SPECIFICO are living in when they claim "The premise of the RfC that 'Vladimir Putin responded to claims of Russian involvement in the 2016 U.S. election' with the given quote, is not supported by the reliable source." Here is Russia's official transcript of the press conference:
  • Yevgeny Primakov: Our western colleagues often tell us that you have the power to manipulate the world, designate presidents, and interfere in elections here and there. How does it feel to be the most powerful person on Earth? Thank you.
  • Vladimir Putin: I have commented on this issue on a number of occasions. If you want to hear it one more time, I can say it again. The current US Administration and leaders of the Democratic Party are trying to blame all their failures on outside factors. I have questions and some thoughts in this regard. We know that not only did the Democratic Party lose the presidential election, but also the Senate, where the Republicans have the majority, and Congress, where the Republicans are also in control. Did we, or I also do that? We may have celebrated this on the "vestiges of a 17th century chapel," but were we the ones who destroyed the chapel, as the saying goes? This is not the way things really are. All this goes to show that the current administration faces system-wide issues, as I have said at a Valdai Club meeting. ... The outstanding Democrats in American history would probably be turning in their graves though. Roosevelt certainly would be because he was an exceptional statesman in American and world history, who knew how to unite the nation even during the Great Depression’s bleakest years, in the late 1930s, and during World War II. Today’s administration, however, is very clearly dividing the nation. The call for the electors not to vote for either candidate, in this case, not to vote for the President-elect, was quite simply a step towards dividing the nation. Two electors did decide not to vote for Trump, and four for Clinton, and here too they lost. They are losing on all fronts and looking for scapegoats on whom to lay the blame. I think that this is an affront to their own dignity. It is important to know how to lose gracefully.
And here is how this was reported in reliable sources:
  • "Putin to Democratic Party: You lost, get over it," The Washington Post, December 23, 2016: "Russian President Vladi­mir Putin has a message for the White House and Democratic leaders who accuse him of stealing their candidate’s victory: Don't be sore losers. That was how Putin answered a question Friday at his nationally televised annual news conference about whether Russia interfered in the U.S. presidential election in favor of Donald Trump. The Democrats 'are losing on all fronts and looking elsewhere for things to blame,' he told the nearly 1,400 journalists packed into a Moscow convention hall for the nearly four-hour event. 'In my view, this, how shall I say it, degrades their own dignity. You have to know how to lose with dignity.'"
  • "Putin says Democrats are being sore losers: 'It is important to know how to lose gracefully'," Business Insider, December 23, 2016: "Russian President Vladimir Putin said Friday that top Democrats are being sore losers by, in part, looking to blame Hillary Clinton's stunning election loss on hacks said to have been orchestrated by the Kremlin. 'They are losing on all fronts and looking for scapegoats on whom to lay the blame,' Putin said. 'I think that this is an affront to their own dignity.' 'It is important to know how to lose gracefully,' he added, suggesting Clinton's loss was a result of a 'gap between the elite's vision of what is good and bad' and the 'broad popular masses.'"
  • "Putin reaches out to Trump, while thumping Dems," Fox News, December 23, 2016: "Russian President Vladimir Putin followed up a warm letter to Donald Trump with a more terse message for U.S. Democrats Friday: Don't blame me for your November drubbing. ... 'Democrats are losing on every front and looking for people to blame everywhere,' he said. 'They need to learn to lose with dignity.' 'The Democratic Party lost not only the presidential elections, but elections in the Senate and Congress. ... Is that also my work?' he said. He went on to ridicule Democrats for never-say-die efforts to overturn the Nov. 8 presidential election, first by calling for recounts, then trying to get electors to flip. 'The fact that the current ruling party called Democratic has blatantly forgotten the original definition of its name is evident if one takes into consideration unscrupulous use of administrative resource and appeals to electors not to concede to voters' choice,' Putin said, according to the Russian news agency Tass."
Do I really need to go on? There is no serious argument that this material has nothing to do with "claims of Russian involvement in the 2016 U.S. election"; as both the official transcript and the cited RS make clear, Putin chose to respond to the question about interfering in the election by emphasizing the Democrats's need for an external scapegoat. The real argument is simply that some editors don't like how Putin chose to respond, citing WP:NOCRITICISMOFTHEDEMOCRATICPARTYCANEVER,EVER,EVERBEALLOWED—red link very much intended.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:38, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
That wasn't my argument. Maybe my recent message responding to you in the Survey section might clarify that. --Bob K31416 (talk) 05:06, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

@Marteau:It was not the Democrats accusing the Russians of this or that. It was the official intelligence assessment of the US Government, accepted by both parties in Congress and just about everywhere else except the Trump team, who endorsed and requested Russian interference. SPECIFICO talk 00:37, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: It is not our task to judge the correctness, or incorrectness, of Putin's statement. It is his opinion and his reply to the accusations he has faced, and it belongs in the "Reaction and Commentary" section. But besides that, the Democrats certainly DID accuse the Russians "of this or that". They actually made quite a big to-do about it, as I recall. Marteau (talk) 01:04, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
But my point is that his "accusers" are not the Democrats, it is the US Government. Only the Trump campaign and associates deny this. SPECIFICO talk 01:22, 26 December 2016 (UTC) SPECIFICO talk 01:21, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
"Obama administration accuses Russian government of election-year hacking" Marteau (talk) 01:52, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
I was attempting to respond to your statement above that Putin's derogation of the Democrats is on topic for this article because it was the Democratic Party that accused/determined that the Russians hacked. But it was not the Democratic Party, it was the US Government -- the Obama Administration for the executive branch based on the National Intelligence Assessment, and a broad bi-partisan array of US members of Congress. So Putin's snarky put-down presumably of the campaign of Sec'y Clinton, whom he despises, is not relevant to this article. It might be relevant to an article about Secretary Clinton's campaign, since it is a meme that various talking heads on the cable networks have also presented. SPECIFICO talk 02:06, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one, then. Marteau (talk) 02:10, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Please specify the disagreement. Do you doubt that mainstream RS all report that it was the US Gov't intelligence assessment that Russia hacked? SPECIFICO talk 02:14, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
This article is about Russian interference in the election. Democrats, using US intelligence as a basis, have in fact accused Russia of interference. Putin has addressed Democratic criticism. I feel that these issues are worthy of inclusion in an article about Russian interference in the election. I think it has foundation and rationale for inclusion based on policy and guidelines. Thats my stance, you disagree. Now, I'll resume agreeing to disagree if you don't mind :) Marteau (talk) 02:35, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
If we treated the U.S. government like any other government—for example, the former Soviet regime—we would be far more skeptical of official U.S. government statistics on GDP, inflation, or anything else—and we would be particularly cautious when reporting on classified CIA intelligence analyses anonymously leaked to CIA-connected journalists working for CIA-connected newspapers with no supporting evidence. If we were capable of looking at the U.S. government objectively, we would recognize that it has the same feuding power centers and careerist incentives to the tow the line as any other state—that the CIA is perfectly capable of fabricating intelligence to suit the needs of the incumbent administration—indeed, that the CIA has a long history of doing exactly that. Recall, for example, Richard Helms's bowing to pressure from LBJ to reduce the CIA's estimate of North Vietnamese/Viet Cong troop strength: "At one point the CIA analysts estimated enemy strength at 500,000, while the military insisted it was only 270,000. No amount of discussion could resolve the difference. Eventually, in September 1967, the CIA under Helms went along with the military's lower number for the combat strength of the Vietnamese Communist forces." (That illusion was, of course, shattered in spectacular fashion next January.) (SPECIFICO even recently cited "George W. Bush’s CIA briefer admits Iraq WMD 'intelligence' was a lie"—but I'm sure that could never happen today!) The publicly available facts are as follows:
Because Putin's remarks are so profoundly damaging to the current official U.S. government position (itself likely to suddenly, inexplicably change yet again after January 20, 2017), editors are pretending that Putin didn't really say what the official transcript says he said, or couldn't possibly have meant it—and, in any case, doubting the accuracy and integrity of the CIA is inherently WP:UNDUE, or something.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 06:06, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
The last point too accurate to be said out loud. I can't wait to see what will be considered "due" and "reliable" for this article after January 20th, 2017. US officials say... Guccisamsclub (talk) 10:33, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

I frankly can't believe that we're arguing over whether a widely covered statement by the Russian President on the hacking scandal and election is relevant to this article. Even more than that, I can't believe that there are people who are arguing that it isn't related to "2016 United States election interference by Russia." I feel like I've stepped into an alternate reality. Really, can we just step back and try to approach this article with less blatant POV battling? -Thucydides411 (talk) 04:35, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Agree Adotchar| reply here 10:36, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Indeed. The thrashing and wailing accompanying the proposed inclusion of a quote by the man directly accused of involvement in this issue, in the "Commentary and Reactions - Russian Government" subsection is becoming ludicrous and at this point I have to believe POV pushing is involved. The proposed quote does more than simply deny Russian involvement; it ascribes a purported motive and is something anyone who hopes to fully understand the dynamics of this issue should be exposed to. His words also capture the tenor of the issue and the animosity present beyond which what a sterile paraphrase can capture. That this statement is Putin's POV is clear, and any bemoaning about how it casts Democrats in a bad light insults the intelligence of the reader... the source and his bias is obvious and the reader needs no protection from such a quote in a "Commentary" subsection. Marteau (talk) 13:11, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Re "The proposed quote does more than simply deny Russian involvement" – If you read it carefully, it does not deny Russian involvement. Here it is for reference, " are losing on all fronts and looking elsewhere for things to blame. In my view this, how shall I say it, degrades their own dignity. You have to know how to lose with dignity."
Also note that it is not a quote of what he said, which was in Russian, but rather a translation. It differs from the translation given on the President of Russia webcite, although it essentially has the same or similar meaning. Here it is for reference, "They are losing on all fronts and looking for scapegoats on whom to lay the blame. I think that this is an affront to their own dignity. It is important to know how to lose gracefully."
--Bob K31416 (talk) 15:43, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Fair enough. Putin's comment could be more properly considered a comment, or reaction. Which actually makes it perfectly appropriate material for the "Commentary and Reaction" section, which is of course what this RfC is about. Marteau (talk) 21:08, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Russian trolls' support for Trump" Section Biased

In this section, articles only from the Guardian and Daily Beast are cited. Both are well-known to be "progressive, liberal" sources of news, and to make things worse, the sources are unreliable. For example, source 44. Go there and read its claims that "RT" and "Sputnik" promoted "fake news" about an incident in Turkey. Now ACTUALLY GO READ THOSE ARTICLES ON RT AND SPUTNIK (they are still there), and the articles DO NOT claim that there was a 2nd coup attempt, but only say that there is speculation that a 2nd coup attempt may have occurred, and they specifically report that they asked a Turkish official what happened and that he denied a 2nd coup, and said it was just a security check. The article on RT DOES mention the protest, as well, in conjunction with what U.S. Government sources claim occurred, no one claims another coup occurred, only that there was speculation about it because of the 7,000 police forces that surrounded the base, and there is an open and on-going dispute about whether those police forces were there or not. The U.S. says "no", RT says "Yes", and the Turkish official appears to side with RT, claiming they were there but only doing a "security check". The numbers are also in dispute, whether it was 7,000 or fewer, but the problem here is that The Guardian and Daily Beast stories, used as "credible references" in this Wiki, are not credible because those particular stories claim that the RT article is one-sided and claims there was another coup atttempt, when it does not. It merely speculates that might have happened, but reports that Turkish officials deny it. The Guardian and Daily Beast also claim that, because the Pentagon said it didn't happen, then it factually did not happen. There are a number of high-profile cases of the Pentagon claiming something did not happen, or making statements that allude to something not having happened, when in fact it did happen. The Guardian and Daily Beast should be reporting that the Pentagon claims it was just a protest and did not happen, while Turkey and RT both are reporting the police did show up, and the facts are disputed. Just because you are a U.S. newspaper doesn't mean the U.S. Government always tells the truth (Iraq WMDs, claims that Iran and not Iraq gassed the Kurds in northern Iraq w/100% certaintly during Reagan's tenure, then flip-flopping and claiming it was Saddam w/100% certainty during W.'s tenure, etc., etc.).

Bizarre title

The article title implies the facts are established even though the allegations are presented without any evidence! Only on Wiki.....Sarah777

Requested move 4 February 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus, pretty much for the same reasons as last time. (non-admin closure) SkyWarrior 18:10, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

2016 United States election interference by Russia → Alleged 2016 United States election interference by Russia – The article title currently makes an affirmative statement which is based on official, U.S. government agencies made during a four-month period - which those same agencies appear to no longer be actively alleging - and which has been disputed by independent media and academics, and which seems to attract increasing criticism with the progress of time (as in this month's newly released Stanford study). Should the title of this article being changed to "Alleged 2016 United States election interference by Russia?" BlueSalix (talk) 16:48, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Note that the RfC is malformated as the issue is not presented in a neutral manner. You want to have your say - that's what your "support" below is for. The RfC itself should be strictly factual. Please strike and reword.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:28, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Support Adding "alleged" does not deny the accuracy of the one-time claims by the CIA, it simply acknowledges this is an allegation and there is not a consensus concurrence in the same way there is with things like gravity or the laws of thermodynamics. We should be exceptionally cautious about sourcing social science articles to claims originating from secret police agencies and add appropriate caveats when we do. BlueSalix (talk) 16:21, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
First, as noted in my OP, additional RS have published since the last move discussion which changes the situation considerably. WP is not a print encyclopedia, nor is it carved into a stone tablet. As the situation changes, we change. Second, while moves to POV-pushing titles have been proposed, a move to "Alleged 2016 United States election interference by Russia" has never been proposed. I would actually oppose the previous move suggestions. BlueSalix (talk) 17:19, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
I don't see any reliable sources in the last three weeks that show that "the situation has changed considerably" in the way you seek. Quite the opposite, in fact. Neutrality 17:28, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
You should probably look harder then. , , etc. You should, in fact, be concerned about ensuring articles are NPOV and accurate rather than policing WP articles to ensure they're "Rah rah! Team America!" as your compatriots, below, seem to be concerned about. BlueSalix (talk) 19:06, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
Please stop personally attacking editors, as you have done at least 3 times in this thread to 3 different editors. (Accusing other editors of acting in some sort of nefarious concert ("your compatriots"), baselessly accusing editors of pro-American bias, nonsensically comparing editors to adherents to the John Birch Society and Infowars - these are all things that fly in the face of common courtesy.).
As to your links, they don't help your case as all. The study summarized in The Hill merely says that fake news may not have changed the result of the election. The article and the study do not conclude that interference didn't exist, or that the Russians weren't involved in it. Nor did it deal with the hacking affair. As for the opinion piece by Carden, the executive director of the "American Committee for East-West Accord," here's what's been said about the group: "Like several other analysts, however, Khrushcheva voiced concern that the group’s potential positive role was compromised by some of its members' knee-jerk tendency to blame all tensions on the West while excusing the Kremlin’s and Vladimir Putin's actions" (link). That kind of source is a very thin reed to base your argument on. Neutrality 19:33, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
"baselessly accusing editors of pro-American bias" --> "anti-American forces seek to cast doubt on their conclusions"
The fact you are claiming this is "baseless" - when its veracity is directly diff'ed (above) - is either a personal attack by you against me, or you've simply been blinded by Old Glory waving in the wind. This coupled with the POV-entrenched, Americentric position you're taking across this set of networked articles - largely in support of newly churned and IP editors - has left your nic, "Neutrality," as something of a Machiavelian hoot. BlueSalix (talk) 19:43, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
OK. Continuing these personal attacks while refusing to respond substantively is, simply put, unproductive.
The bottom line is the reliable sources indicate that the Russians did interfere in the election. Experts (e.g., Michael McFaul, "the leading scholar of his generation, maybe the leading scholar, on post-Communist Russia") conclude that—while there's still a lot we don't know, including the particular aims of the Russians and whether it ultimately affected the outcome of the election—the Russians did engage in disinformation and interference. Neutrality 20:03, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
No, that's not the bottom line. The bottom line is that a majority of RS on this 90-day old topic claim there was interference, and a large minority (all the sources that have recently been deleted from this article) claim there was not. WP is not a winner take all system. BlueSalix (talk) 22:23, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
Notifying users of previous discussions is not required and may be a form of inappropriate canvassing. TFD (talk) 20:00, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
That is certainly not the case. As the policy says, notifying "Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics)" is an appropriate notice, so long as the notices are sent without regard to opinion. Neutrality 20:03, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This has already been discussed and settled. The verifiability of the RS is very clear, and the intelligence community has, if anything, made even more clear that they stand by their evidence and published statements. That "agencies appear to no longer be actively alleging" does not indicate they are backing down or are any less certain. On the contrary. They have settled the matter, and they feel no need to continue kicking a dead horse, and that's exactly what this RfC is doing. It's absurd.

    Only Trump, his Russian friends, and other anti-American forces seek to cast doubt on their conclusions, and without any good evidence.

    This isn't a conspiracy theory (with conflicting opinions and no good evidence) where we have to couch the title in modifiers. This is a firmly settled matter, and until multiple RS find new evidence that totally upsets the apple cart, the current title is good enough. Editorial doubts should not be included in the title. That would violate NPOV. -- BullRangifer (talk) 17:57, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

"Only Trump, his Russian friends, and other anti-American forces seek to cast doubt on their conclusions"
That is nonsense, see the commentary and reaction secton. William Binney is an exampleApollo The Logician (talk) 18:00, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
"Only Trump, his Russian friends, and other anti-American forces seek to cast doubt on their conclusions" ... So the Stanford University and NYU studies, Glenn Greenwald, Masha Gessen, The Nation, Wikileaks, the U.S.' foremost expert on Russian media at Duke University, etc. - all of which reject the conclusions - must be part of this wild conspiracy you think exists? LOL. Also, screaming "Anti-American! Anti-American!" - while it may be an argument in a John Birch Society debate - is not an argument in a WP move discussion. BlueSalix (talk) 19:06, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
Point of fact - the Stanford University and NYU studies did NOT "cast doubt" on any conclusions. You are just pretending that they did. And you are also making personal attacks by comparing commentators to Bircher's, or for that matter accusing them of "screaming". (For the other ones, Greenwald, Wikileaks and Russia itself certainly do qualify as "anti-American". And Gessen also doesn't quite say what you claim she says) Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:10, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose - The mainstream view is that the Russian interference with the election happened. 'Alleged' is a WP:WEASEL word best avoided when there is no credible doubt as to the veracity of situation. I agree with BU Rob13 that editors who participated in the previous discussion should be notified that the discussion has been re-opened.- MrX 18:09, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
The view of the U.S. secret police services does not = the mainstream view. The mainstream view is the consensus view of reputable and neutral parties. At present, there is not a consensus view, due to the fact that Stanford University and NYU studies have questioned the U.S. secret police conclusions, as have mainstream journalists like Glenn Greenwald, Masha Gessen, The Nation, Wikileaks, the U.S.' foremost expert on Russian media at Duke University, etc. Your position is based on dismissing Stanford, NYU, The Intercept, Duke University, The Nation, Politico, etc. as "not credible." Your distrust of academia and the mainstream media may be shared by Coast to Coast AM or InfoWars, but not generally by experienced WP editors. BlueSalix (talk) 19:06, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
"U.S. secret police services"? Seriously? Neutrality 19:33, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
BlueSalix, the U.S. does not have a "secret police". That kind of rhetoric is not helpful in moving discussion forward and tends to discredit your entire argument.- MrX 19:44, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
What the fuck are "secret police conclusions" and why do you keep raving on about'em? Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:06, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
According to RS including Democracy Now ,ComputerWorld , Roger Nash Baldwin and NBC News , the FBI is a "secret police" service. I know that kind of language doesn't jive with "Freedom! Apple Pie!" and so forth but please understand, not everyone who edits WP is a U.S. citizen committed to promoting the narrative of American utopianism like you and Neutrality seem to be.
We should be careful with articles that are sourced entirely to claims originating with secret police agencies like the FBI, KGB, State Security Ministry, and so forth. The perspectives of independent sources like mainstream media and academics, should be given discursive dominance. BlueSalix (talk) 19:52, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
First, those cherry-picked articles do not support your ridiculous claim that U.S. secret police services exist. Nice try though. As concerns your personal attack, I am not a person known for "promoting the narrative of American utopianism". On the contrary; I'm openly critical and suspicious of my government.- MrX 20:09, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Support For full disclosure - new editor, long-time reader of this article, so don't know if my opinion counts. However, the argument that "only anti-American forces" question the conclusions, therefore questions about the conclusions should be dismissed as fringe - meanwhile it's been shown, as above, that those who question the conclusions include peer-reviewed studies, mainstream media, and such - I have trouble assuming that those opposing this move are really doing so in good faith. BrandNewEditor2017 (talk) 19:25, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
Very new editor - a total of three edits from a brand new account. Welcome. Please tell exactly which "peer-reviewed study" concludes that Russian interference did not occur. Neutrality 19:36, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Support While not being American, I do have to say that the sources provided give no definitive proof that Russia did anything physical to interfere with the election. Alleged would be much better as the current title gives a level of POV to the accusations. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 20:03, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Support: Most reliable sources are treating "Russian interference" as an allegation. The various allegations may or may not be true. "Alleged" is a neutral term to describe such a situation, and it's used by many reliable sources. -Thucydides411 (talk) 20:04, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
Yeah. That's just not true.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:07, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
What's not true? That most reliable sources treat this as an allegation, or that "alleged" is a neutral term? -Thucydides411 (talk) 09:33, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Support We should not show greater certainty than mainstream media which routinely says that these are allegations with which American intelligence have a high degree of confidence. It is not in the same category as the findings of the 9/11 or Warren Commission where the authors expressed certainty which was reflected in mainstream reporting. So news media routinely say Oswald was a lone gunman or bin Laden was responsible for 9/11 without qualification or mention of the commissions that made the determination. Anyway be patient. In due course if conclusive evidence is presented we can move the article back. TFD (talk) 20:11, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose The intelligence community, which has access to sources that journalists and others don't have, is convinced there were Russian efforts to interfere with the election. For journalists to complain that they didn't show us their evidence - well, of course they didn't! Telling us the sources of their information could affect national security as well as endanger the lives of sources. Nominator cites the Stanford study, but it does not deny or disprove that the Russians attempted to interfere with the election - it only concludes that one small aspect of the interference, the "fake news", did not affect the outcome. But the intelligence sources never claimed that Russian interference affected the outcome of the election, and neither does this article. The hacking, and the carefully timed public releases, remain on the record. To weaken this title with an "alleged" would do a disservice to our readers. --MelanieN (talk) 20:16, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
    • Can you point to the policy which says we should weight should be based on unpublished U.S. intelligence sources rather than reliable secondary sources? BTW I just provided the example of 9/11 where intelligence provided evidence. They also provided evidence against Saddam Hussein if you remember, although some of it was held back. TFD (talk) 20:48, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
    • Unless you've seen it or had it described to you, classified intelligence is simply not a source. Forget about "reliable", "primary", "secondary", "published" etc: it's not a source in any way shape or form. Guccisamsclub (talk) 22:56, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
    • @MelanieN: Read what you wrote: The intelligence community is convinced there were Russian efforts to interfere with the election. This actually makes the case of move supporters, because US intelligence is convinced and other people (inside and outside the USA) are unconvinced. — JFG 11:03, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
      • I am baffled by the argument from some here that we can't accept the assessment of the intelligence community (17 agencies in agreement as I recall) unless they show us their sources - presumably so that we can make our own (WP:OR?) assessment of whether we find the information credible or not. That is NOT how our Reliable Source guideline works. We define a source as Reliable if it is published and if the publisher/source has "a reputation for fact checking and accuracy". We accept reports from "reliable" media even though they virtually never show us their original sources (such as a transcript of the interview) and often use anonymous sources. We accept citations from a source like a news organization if the organization meets the RS standard - meaning it has a reputation, based on its overall track record, for checking facts and providing mostly accurate information. I contend that exact same standard applies to the intelligence agencies of the United States (and please don't belabor the point that they made a mistake a decade or two ago; even the NYT makes mistakes occasionally.) In addition to their classified briefings which we cannot see or cite, they have published an unclassified summary of what they have found and what they conclude. IMO that is a Reliable Source by Misplaced Pages's definition and should not be rejected on the grounds that they (for obvious reasons) don't tell us exactly what information they got from exactly what source. --MelanieN (talk) 20:08, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
        • The "unclassified summary" itself has had its validity questioned by RS media including The Intercept, The Nation and others. I understand, MelanieN, if you aren't aware of this fact. It was included in the article, however, Malek declared Glenn Greenwald (The Intercept) and others "Anti-American" and then deleted all the sources, therefore, a lot of people haven't seen these other RS. BlueSalix (talk) 21:51, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
        • Statements—either declassified, leaked or public—by officials of any govt (yes, that includes US officials) are WP:PRIMARY sources and not WP:RS. This is POLICY. There is no ambiguity here. Guccisamsclub (talk) 12:54, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Support per TFD. The vast majority of (non-opinion) reliable sources are simply relaying the claims of the US government, with a few saying point-blank that it's "alleged" (major outlets like CNN) and a few others insinuating it's more than alleged. Reportage can be construed as "endorsement", but doing so would constitute OR. Then there are opinion/analysis sources. The vast majority of these sources simply critique or otherwise evaluate existing claims, with a few going further and attempting to establish the truth positively (did Russia actually do it?). Of those that seek to establish the truth positively, most think it's likely that Russia did do it. But quality sources that seek to establish the truth positively are few in number. But even if that were not the case, saying something is credible or likely does not mean it's not "alleged" . Finally there's Crowdstrike, US intel, the Russian govt and Wikileaks. All of these are materially-involved WP:PRIMARY sources. What they say is completely irrelevant to this RfC. Until the preponderance of RS unequivocally state that Russia was responsible (as proven fact), Russian culpability will remain alleged, however credibly. Guccisamsclub (talk) 22:26, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose 1. Already had serveral long discussions on this. 2. WP:RS do not use allege. 3. This title is non-wp:n. US intel agencies came to the conclusion that Russia interfered and stated it. This title undermines that fact and minimizes that reality. 4. I had a move request closed by User talk:JudgeRM because the discussion was too soon before pervious conversations. I am unsure why this does not follow suit.Casprings (talk) 22:49, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
"WP:RS do not use allege.. That's simply false. "US intel agencies came to the conclusion that Russia interfered and stated it. This title undermines that fact and minimizes that reality." That's actually the definition of alleged. Please read WP:RS. Also remember that there is such a thing as a "credible allegation". Guccisamsclub (talk) 23:02, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
"This title is non-wp:n. US intel agencies came to the conclusion that Russia interfered and stated it. This title undermines that fact and minimizes that reality.": This is really the most disturbing aspect of this discussion - that a significant number of Misplaced Pages editors are declaring that public statements of US intelligence agencies must be treated as fact. I cannot imagine us even contemplating treating the spy agencies of any other country that way. What's next? Are we going to declare positions of the FSB as absolute truth? We go by reliable sources, and intelligence agencies are reliable sources only for their own opinions. -Thucydides411 (talk) 03:15, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
The supposed WP:RS discovered via Google search link above has some issues:
  1. even the text of this Fox News report is consistent with other WP:RS such as the New York Times, Washington Post, and Politico reporting on this issue.
  2. pertains to Russian hackers Evgeniy Bogachev and Aleksey Belan who were involved in schemes not related to this topic. In the entire article "alleged" is used once, but in-depth analysis (or reporting) about topic related US intelligence reports is not in this article. So, first, this is not significant coverage that supports placing "alleged" in this title. Second, we don't know the circumstances behind this reporter not reporting details about topic related Russian hacks.
  3. is saying this is "alleged Russian hacking" and "Trump has dismissed intelligence reports from both the CIA and FBI that claim Russia meddled in the election to help Trump defeat his opponent" -- but no WP:RS supports his opinion up to this date.
  4. This is a blog post.
  5. This also says "US intelligence officials have said that they are confident Russia was behind the US election hacks , which could have played a role in Trump’s defeat over Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton." Although the headline says "alleged" I don't see anything in this article that supports their use of this word in the title. I am guessing it is merely a headline grabber (click bate). It covers diplomat expulsions, sanctions, and so on.
It appears the sources recount US intelligence agencies and US security agencies findings - but are unable to show support for meager use of the word "alleged" - such as one instance in an article. I don't think this would equal significant coverage in a relevant discussion. Hopefully this is one of those relevant discussions. Steve Quinn (talk) 18:41, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose This has been given ample recent consideration and it feels disruptive to ask editors to come back each time that the same thing is proposed for fear that it will appear to have consensus when the highly motivated editors on one side jump out of the woodwork for another go-round. The Russian interference is a fact that's been confirmed by every government agency that's reviewed all the evidence. And academic studies or polls of public opinion have nothing to do with WP sourcing the RS consensus as to the facts. SPECIFICO talk 03:55, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
When you write "all the evidence," I presume you mean classified evidence as well. Is that correct? -Thucydides411 (talk) 06:46, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
This is the third !vote based on unspecified classified "evidence" (inherently unsourceable) and the conclusions of US intel (not RS). These !votes can't be considered valid because they are asking us to flagrantly violate WP:V. Guccisamsclub (talk) 10:49, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose This has been litigated to death and there is just no support in sources for this title. Furthermore, the issue has been discussed repeatedly and this is bordering on (intertemporal) WP:FORUMSHOPPING. Finally, the RfC itself violates guidelines as it is not properly formatted and it is not worded neutrally. Some editors just need to learn how to WP:DROPTHESTICK.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:30, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
(And did I ever mentioned that only six month old and older accounts should be allowed to !vote in controversial RfCs?)Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:33, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
Is this policy or just a recommendation? Also, bringing the same/similar issue on the same page is NOT WP:FORUMSHOPPING. Guccisamsclub (talk) 10:49, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. How many times do we have to go through this? A slightly different version ("Intelligence reports" of Russian interference instead of "Allegations") of the proposed title was proposed by JFG on December 29 and rejected. Another slightly different version ("Allegations of" instead of "Alleged") was proposed by JFG on January 7 and rejected. The article is not based solely "… on official , U.S. government agencies made during a four-month period …", but also by and in numerous other sources long before US agencies ever issued any statements. None of any of them have been retracted, AFAIK. This dead horse has been flogged so many times it’s a pile of mush by the side of the road. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 12:28, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
In the first few weeks of this story, there was a rather strong polarization in sources, some of them defending the agencies' assessment as unassailable, some of them expressing doubt on various grounds (technology, politics or secrecy), and both sides said "hey, proof will come out soon enough" as Obama ordered a report to settle any doubts. Since that report came out two shifts happened: the "pro" sources started to consistently qualify the allegations, and the "contra" sources became much more assertive in expressing their skepticism. Therefore, the balance of sources today has shifted universally towards calling those allegations what they are: allegations, accusations, innuendo, inferences, whatever you want to call it, they are not unattackable facts. A rename is ever more justified, and we can't accept the "dead horse" argument without looking at how coverage of the story has evolved. — JFG 17:32, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment - If this is over, shall moratorium be proposed? George Ho (talk) 12:34, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose reliable sources have been covering this for months until recently. In unison they report 17 intelligence agencies, the FBI, and Homeland Security say the hacking by Russians did occur. The agencies also ultimately say that there was a purpose behind these activities. The purpose or intent was to influence the outcome of the 2016 presidential election. It is pretty clear this did occur and the Russians intended to influence the elections.
I think saying that US intelligence and law enforcement agencies are not to be believed appears to indicate some wide spread conspiracy is afoot - which cannot be credible - even on its face. I also think, saying US agencies are not believable is also a good excuse for discounting WP:RS, which is a foundation for WP:GNG and our content policies such as WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, and WP:V.
Also, for those who noticed it - please excuse my edit on the main space page. I didn't realize this RFC is exactly related to that edit, and probably not appropriate at this time, so I self-reverted. Don't need admins admonishing me due to my bad timing. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 17:34, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
@Steve Quinn:The RfC is only about moving the article (AGAIN), so I just removed one of the numerous mentions of "alleged". The hacking itself has been established to have taken place, I think, just not who's responsible, at least not to everyone's satisfaction. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 17:53, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
@Steve Quinn: You make a very good argument for inclusion of the word "alleged." As you say, reliable sources report that US intelligence agencies have alleged Russia interfered in the US elections. Going from the fact that US intelligence agencies have made those allegations to a statement that those claims are correct would, however, be WP:OR. You can have a personal view on whether or not the CIA, the FSB or any other intelligence agency in the world is trustworthy on any given issue, but unless reliable sources (e.g., reputable newspapers) on the whole state something as a fact, we cannot do so here on Misplaced Pages. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:31, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
@Thucydides411: please do not mischaracterize my post (what I said), and please do not do this again. This is considered disruptive editing and contravenes WP:NPA. I am not here to defend against mischaracterizatizing my words. Please do not be presumptuous enough to tell me what what I mean either. Please be attentive to the Arbcom DS restrictions template above This is fair warning. Steve Quinn (talk) 18:50, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
@Steve Quinn: I don't see how you read a personal attack into anything that I wrote. I addressed your argument, not your person. You actually did make a very good argument for including the word "alleged." It's simply that after laying out the reasons why "alleged" is appropriate, you came to the opposite conclusion. US intelligence agencies have alleged Russian hacking, as you laid out above. But you're now making the astounding argument that the FBI and CIA are reliable sources, which would be a really unbelievable position for Misplaced Pages to take. -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:42, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
@Steve Quinn: Accusing another editor of a personal attack, when no such attack occurred, is itself a personal attack and a violation of DS. I suggest you either provide a diff for your allegation or strike it before you're blocked. BlueSalix (talk) 21:45, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
Thucydides411 and BlueSalix OK. Let's drop this for now. I attribute it to a misunderstanding (or miscommunication). ---Steve Quinn (talk) 22:17, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
@Steve Quinn: These "17 agencies" are neither independent nor WP:RS. We don't know what exactly their conclusions are based on, besides the findings already made public. Some of the public findings have been heavily criticized within the mainstream and by experts. Lots of these sources have been deleted recently, so you may need to check google or the page history to access them: but they are indeed numerous. As you say, the media has mainly been "covering" what US officials have been saying. This probably means that most sources agree that the allegations are newsworthy and credible, but coverage does not equal endorsement. Finally, it is a pretty orwellian to equate skepticism with conspiracism. A National Intelligence Estimate can be catastrophically wrong (note that this "bulletproof" evidence was also classified — now we see it for what it is), and no "conspirancy theory" is necesserary to account for this fact. PS: Your list of sources above is incomplete. It is indisputable that some RS (no, not TheBlaze) have used "alleged". But this is not the only point. The other points: is that it is WP:OR to interpret uncritical coverage ("officials say") with endorsement; governments (and even hired security firms) are WP:PRIMARY sources with conflicts of interest; "classified intelligence" is not a source. The same arguments could have been used in 2003 to pummel readers with how factual and not-at-all-alleged the WMD intelligence was. That's not to say that the intel community's conclusions are completely fabricated this time, just that proper attribution is at the very least warranted. Guccisamsclub (talk) 19:27, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
Hatting side discussion about the Iraq war. Sorry, but this thread is already almost too long to follow. --MelanieN (talk) 15:26, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Straw man. Red herring. Please review WP:RS. This is not a video game. The matter is settled until, as TFD says, Putin comes clean and admits it was all an elaborate hoax. Haha Good one. SPECIFICO talk 19:56, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
Ha ha. La la. Boing boing. Tetris. Guccisamsclub (talk) 00:07, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) It is clear, even from the source you cited, that Congress concluded the Bush administration overstated the value of that report. There was nothing wrong with the report - it stated facts (or assessments) garnered by intelligence agencies. I have to wonder if you read this yourself - because it does not support your argument? Anyway, you're citing one intelligence report from years ago to refute (now) that 17 intelligence agencies, Homeland security, and the FBI are all in agreement - the Russians are behind the hacks intended to influence the 2016 US elections. Huh? What? O.K.
It would make sense if there was a blunder and that some of these agencies would step forward and cry foul or disagree. But that hasn't happened. There are also some details that have been revealed such as the behavior patterns of these Russian military hackers, which are recognizable. We haven't been left totally left in the dark, as we were when the Bush surrogates were on all the political talk shows overstating the findings of the above mentioned report and other reports. Unfortunately they roped in General Powell who unwittingly presented their case to the UN.
Saying these agencies are not independent and not R.S. seems like playing word games. Yes, it is true they are not independent for our sourcing purposes, but each agency makes independent assessments in the real world. How much verification do you suppose has happened between 17 agencies, Homeland Security, and the FBI? This could be a new world's record on verification and coming to the same conclusion.
Saying they are not are reliable sources is OK for Misplaced Pages purposes, as we tend to go for secondary sources. But there is no evidence to impugn the integrity of these numerous agencies - there is nothing to support it. So what we actually have is reliable sources reporting on information released by reliable sources (reliable agencies). In a manner of speaking we get two for the price of one - and that is a good deal.
Again, I don't know why you cited this source - it refutes what you are trying to claim. It says the Bush administration's spin did not agree with the actual report. There was nothing wrong with the report - the Bush Administration misused in the public forum. Classified information is a source - although we don't use it on Misplaced Pages - we use secondary sources that summarize available formerly classified information, and this seems to be more word games.
Also, I would like to see which "public findings have been heavily criticized within the mainstream and by experts", even though you implore me to go on a Google quest. I appreciate the offer, but I have been covering this since the DNC was first reported hacked last year. I am not seeing heavy criticism within the mainstream and by experts" In fact, just the opposite.
Expert after expert and news article after news article has been saying "Russian hackers, Russian hackers, Russian hackers...to infinitude" from then until now. I love it when editors make disagreeing sweeping claims, as if I don't know what I am talking about. Also, my assessment above is quite accurate, but I don't know why you discuss it here. Steve Quinn (talk) 20:20, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
I mentioned Iraq as an aside, but if you insist...
OK, more than enough. Guccisamsclub (talk) 23:33, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
"Also, I would like to see which "public findings have been heavily criticized within the mainstream and by experts" -- If you look at the material that was "challenged" by Marek you'll see exactly which public findings have been criticized by mainstream media and experts. Our article doesn't currently contain that content (The Nation, The Monitor, Stanford, etc.), though, as it was challenged by process of deletion. BlueSalix (talk) 22:00, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
  • The major point is the Bush Administration filled in the blanks on that report. What I meant by "nothing wrong with the report" is that it was what it was and not more than that. It gave an accurate assessment whatever was there. It didn't overstate any conclusions - it didn't overstate lack of human intelligence, it didn't say Iraq was directly responsible for the Anthrax attack, it didn't say Hussein was making rockets out of aluminum tubes, it didn't say Hussein was making weapons of mass destruction, it didn't give a definitive conclusion there was an Iraqi and Al Queda connection.
They reported what was in front of them. Of course they felt rushed - they needed to quickly assess what the "enemy" had. You are not even mentioning that. It is not black and white, cut and dried. The NIE report was flawed in the sense there wasn't enough time and flawed in the sense there were gaps in the intelligence - but through no fault of the agents on the ground.
It was not flawed in reporting the information they actually had in hand. That is the difference here. The main point is the Bush Administration used an accurate assessment at the time, with all its gaps and shortcomings, and spun it like this was "bulletproof". The NIE report in no way claimed to be bulletproof or have bulletproof conclusions. It was not a misleading report. This is what I meant about "nothing wrong with the report".
I am guessing that every NIE report at any time on any day can be considered "flawed" in the way you have tried to describe it. There will never be any time or any day when all the possible information there is to know about a situation is in hand - because time did not allow it. If the agents on the ground had 25 years or 100 years to gather all possible information then maybe it would no longer be "flawed". But then it would be of no use, because the circumstances, incidents, or war footing for which the information was required are long past.
As an aside, these times are not like that. How many cybersecurity experts and espionage agents were and are working on this problem within 17 intelligence agencies, law enforcement agencies, and private entities or contractors? I would guess thousands, because it seems to have that kind of priority. I have to say they probably have put together a complete enough and accurate enough picture - enough to kick Russian diplomats out of the country and apply more sanctions.
And journalists have sources that are accessible to them, especially veteran journalists. They have done a good job of ferreting out the truth for quite a long time and very capable of it. If the mainstream press detected BS they would say so. They have had no problem detecting and reporting inconsistencies over these past two weeks and a half weeks. So, I think the same principles apply to this topic. The press is consistent in their reporting. Why would this topic be any different? ----Steve Quinn (talk) 06:38, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
I am amazed at the audacity of a public figure trying to pass-off that report of 15 years ago, when they had much less technology, much less monitoring capability, and didn't have the all-seeing all-knowing all-plugged-in-NSA that we have today --- and equate that with this report garnered by 17 state of the art intelligence agencies, law enforcement agencies and private entities. This is worse than comparing apples to oranges. There is no there, there. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 07:11, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
Talk about "audacity"....
  • "The major point is the Bush Administration filled in the blanks on that report." Yes that's true, and? "The State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research also disagreed with the intelligence community's assertions that Iraq had reconstituted its nuclear weapons program. The CIA's 25-page unclassified summary' of the NIE released in 2002 did not contain the State or Energy Departments' dissent."1 That's an argument for trusting officials when they say they have "slam dunk" intelligence but won't show a significant part of it?
  • "it (NIE) didn't say Hussein was making rockets out of aluminum tubes" Yeah, it said he was making NUKES out of them: "Most agencies believe that Saddam’s personal interest in and Iraq’s aggressive attempts to obtain high-strength aluminum tubes for centrifuge rotors—as well as Iraq’s attempts to acquire magnets, high-speed balancing machines, and machine tools—provide compelling evidence that Saddam is reconstituting a uranium enrichment effort for Baghdad’s nuclear weapons program." NIE pg6 The rockets theory was a dissenting word of caution from the DoE (who still agreed Saddam was building nukes)! (this was a serious report for internal use, so naturally there was a dissenting opinion from the DoE. Contrast with unclassified ODNI assessment on hacking, which is brochure, much like the CIA/DCI's summary of the 2002 NIE. Brochures don't contain significant dissenting opinions.
  • "it (NIE) didn't say Hussein was making weapons of mass destruction" You appear to have not read the title and the first paragraph of the NIE. This is a shockingly ignorant statement.
  • "I am guessing that every NIE report at any time on any day can be considered "flawed" in the way you have tried to describe it.". Take it up with the RAND Corporation—I've "tried" nothing. Or you can try this this summary from the Council on Foreign Relations instead: "most of the key judgments have since been debunked as inaccurate, false, or misleading". Why are you guessing anything? Again, pretty shocking.
  • "17 intelligence agencies" (blamed Russia for hacking) Is 17 a magic number or something? The 2002 classsified NSE on Iraq's WMD was prepared by 10 different agencies. though that report was classified. The unclassified summary version of the same report was released by the Director of Central Intelligence (also head of CIA before 2005), who oversaw in the intel community as a whole.
  • "The press is consistent in their reporting." Are you completely unaware of the nature of media coverage in runup to the Iraq war? Yes, the national press consistently report what the nation's "officials say" with little criticism, creating a kind of "truthiness". But at least the press properly attributes the claims.
The real difference between '02 and today is that in 2002 there was a pressing need to manufacture a causus belli for an imminent war. There is no equally compelling reason for the CIA, the administration etc to lie about the hacks. While that still does not make spies reliable sources, this would have at least been a persuasive argument. Guccisamsclub (talk) 16:30, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
"Is 17 a magic number or something?" The ODNI represents 16 members of the intelligence community (IC). 17 may be a typo or someone added the ODNI as representing itself, as well. Does anyone know? Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 17:53, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
Oh, OK, now I get your argument: Since not all members represented by the DNI were involved in the drafting of the document, it carries less weight than the one drafted in 2002 (as long as we're nitpicking, that was a Reuters news report picked up by Time and others). When you're contemplating military action in Iraq, you would probably want input from all branches of the Armed Forces as well as from the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, the National Reconnaissance Office, and the DIA in addition to "just" the CIA, NSA, FBI, so there's your 10 (just guessing, didn't look this up). When you are investigating specific cyber attacks or disinformation campaigns, what kind of information could you expect from the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency or Marine Corps Intelligence, for example? (Rhetorical question.) Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 21:55, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
Yeah I brought up the same point earlier, though in the context of an incorrect statement, now corrected. I was just tired of hearing that this time we have a whopping 17 agencies (world record!?) so it must be true. The number does not matter, and 17 is a ridiculous exaggeration in any case. What does matter is that a 94 page National Security Estimate—written for internal use and containing dissenting opinions—was an infinitely more serious document than the ODNI's 14 page "assessment" brochure. This is the point Seymour Hersh made in his interview. The only thing the brochure has going for it is that there's not that much to be gained from falsely incriminating the GRU in the hacking. Guccisamsclub (talk) 22:42, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
Guccisamsclub There was one caveat that I avoided saying and that you correctly brought up. The pre-Iraq invasion press coverage was disgraceful. I think all U.S. mainstream news outlets just echoed what they were fed by any officials connected to the Bush Administration. I think during the early war years, the coverage was equally deplorable, still echoing the Administration's view.
The press has done a huge mea culpa since that time. So, most of the time the press does indeed act like the fourth estate. But historically, during times of war, they put a muzzle on their investigative reporting and critical assessments of Government entities. This has occurred during war time, at least since WWI. I don't know about before that.
As an aside, I'll try to verify if intelligence agencies were actually saying the aluminum tubes were intended for building nukes for myself. I was sure their use was inconclusive pertaining to intelligence assessments. Anyway, we should probably drop discussing this in this thread any longer - it seems off topic at this point. But I might visit your talk page to continue this discussion (evil laugh!), because this is very interesting - if that is OK with you. Steve Quinn (talk)
  • Oppose. Based on coverage in WP:RS, the correct title is 2016 United States election interference by Russia. This is not something that is "alleged", and a title containing the word "alleged" would be just as blatantly POV as a title claiming climate change is "alleged". --Tataral (talk) 18:38, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Support High-quality sources attribute the claim to the US government or government agencies, we should follow their lead. Alleged 2016 United States election interference by Russia is a reasonable approximation of '"US Government alleges Russian interference in 2016 US election." Allegations by non-government agents (without access to the full intelligence) are speculation and should be treated as speculation – good enough for attributed opinion, not for article titles. James J. Lambden (talk) 01:16, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose like last time - Somedifferentstuff (talk) 15:17, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
The headline of the CNN article says ,"Senate probe into election hacking to review possible links between Russia, campaigns", i.e., the article is about alleged links between Russia and Trump campaign staffers. The article starts off with "The Senate Intelligence Committee's review of Russian meddling in the 2016 election ...". Nothing alleged there. PS.: Is your vote in support of the requested Feb 4 move or the hatted request to postpone the move? Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 09:36, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
riiight ... here's a quote from that CNN source: "joint statement that the investigation into alleged Russian interference in the election also will focus on Russian cyberactivity and "active measures" against the US.". Guccisamsclub (talk) 15:49, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
And another quote: "Burr and Warner said the committee will hold hearings examining Russian intelligence activity ..." Aaand we've arrived back at the discussion in the first and second move RfC about whether the title is more neutral with or without "alleged"/"allegation" in it. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 21:21, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
The quote I gave shows that CNN did indeed describe the interference as "alleged", contrary to what you claimed CNN said. What exactly does your quote show? Guccisamsclub (talk) 22:34, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
I believe his/her point is that anyone can use your method and find the exact opposite. Here is another example from the CNN article you linked: "review of Russian meddling in the 2016 election will include a look at any intelligence..." There is no "alleged". Your approached is really very superficial and can't be applied in any definitive sense. EyeTruth (talk) 01:47, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
Editor said "alleged interference" was not used by CNN, and I corrected them. Their alternative quote basically demonstrates that CNN did not want to overuse "alleged" in reporting on various govt investigations whose stated goal is to probe real (not alleged russian meddling). Interjecting with "allegedly" too much may look like interrupting the sources or putting words into their mouth. I don't think it proves the negative, since the attribution to the committee is still there: there is no declaration by CNN that Russians did it, quite the opposite. You can debate exactly how much weight should be given to this finding, but it's clearly greater than zero. Guccisamsclub (talk) 02:05, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment: If editors think "allegations of" is too negative somehow (I don't), we could use "claims of". What we shouldn't do is substitute a kind of truthiness for a careful reading of the sources. It may appear to editors on an EL wiki that, regardless of topic, it is inherently mainstream, neutral and respectable to sympathize with the US government while criticizing its enemies (to a greater or lesser degree). It is in fact reasonable to expect that reliable sources—particularly the major news outlets we are dealing with here—will tend to conform to this rule. If most RS' sounded like Democracy Now, the current US govt would obviously cease to exist (every state requires consent). BUT this expectation/prejudice, however reasonable, has nothing to with the policies of this site. The correct approach in every individual case is to read off the bare facts and opinions from sources line by line and not go one inch beyond that by synthesizing or postulating a metanarrative. Here, this approach plainly leads to the conclusion that the sources are overwhelmingly reporting—with clear and abundant attribution—the fact that two WP:PRIMARY sources (Crowdstrike contractor and the government, by virtue of being involved parties very close to the underlying action) are saying that the Russian state is responsible for the hacking. It may be argued that the largely uncritical reporting of these claims by the news media constitutes an implicit endorsement, but this is plainly an unverifiable OR/SYNTH conclusion. It is therefore a clear violation of WP:V to drop the attribution and state the claims about Russian culpability in wikipedia's voice. Guccisamsclub (talk) 02:05, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with geography. You could live in an igloo in Siberia, for all that matters -- the world knows that there was Russian interference. Who doesn't know that? Everybody knows that. How do we know everyone knows? Because they say so. Of course the Russians know, and they're not English language. Everybody knows -- that's what RS say 96.5%. SPECIFICO talk 03:02, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
Everybody knows that. No. Show me one person who believes this and I'll show you two won don't. This assertion is WP:OR at best, hallucination at worst. — JFG 07:43, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
Where do you get off making presumptions about what most Russians believe? Ever been there, read the local papers or talked to Russians? I'm guessing answer's "no" to all three, for all intents and purposes. When the Russian media pronounce judgement, they usually say either that the allegations are baseless or that there is a propaganda and intelligence war being waged against Russia. Most Russians agree with their media on this point to a greater or lesser degree, to the extent they know at all about it or care. They are not that different from the Americans, or anyone else. Guccisamsclub (talk) 09:33, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Move to Suspend Move Discussion and Restart Later

This suggestion didn't go anywhere. Hatting. --MelanieN (talk) 15:21, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

The article in its current form - after 6,000 bytes of sources and material from Stanford University, Duke University, The Nation, etc. were deleted - doesn't support a move. As it is, all new !votes are !votes on the article in its current form, not the article in the form in which it existed when the move request was opened. I recommend, as OP, suspending the discussion until such time as the purged sources can be restored and the article rebuilt. BlueSalix (talk) 22:02, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

  • Support If I were !voting on the article in its current form I, too, would vote "Oppose". BlueSalix (talk) 22:04, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
    • Nice try, but I believe the majority here would consider any attempt to beat the dead horse by starting yet another move discussion to be highly disruptive, and that the correct course of action would be to immediately close such a discussion based on the consensus on this talk page and the previous discussions we had. This issue has been settled after extensive debate, and we cannot rehash the same debate over and over and over again, every week, just because some editors won't accept the consensus. --Tataral (talk) 22:09, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
    • I agree with Tataral. This is pretty obvious gamesmanship. The consensus has been settled, after extensive debate. We cannot and should not have a neverendum" here. That would be a huge waste of everybody's time. Neutrality 22:16, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
You need to familiarize yourself with the difference between "consensus" and "majority voting". There is no consensus in this Move - which is amazing considering the article was completely restructured to purge 9 different sources after the Move was opened. In its current form even I - the OP - can't support the move. There's gamesmanship going on but it's not from me. BlueSalix (talk) 22:30, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Binney and McGovern's comments on James Clapper

As part of reactions from the intelligence community, the article cites former NSA high-ranking member Binney and former CIA analyst McGovern as saying (via the Baltimore Sun), among other things:

Binney and McGovern wrote that given Director of National Intelligence James Clapper's false testimony to Congress over NSA surveillance of Americans, and his involvement in building the WMD case against Iraq, skepticism about his claims of Russian hacking are warranted.

SPECIFICO recently deleted this sentence as a "BLP smear" against Clapper. I reverted him mentioning that the accusation was properly attributed and grounded in facts. Specifico then reverted again, saying BLP Smear unless it has been adjudicated in a court of law. If so, please show me and I will restore it. I respectfully argue that this counter-reversion is unwarranted because:

  1. James Clapper is a WP:PUBLICFIGURE and his false testimony about NSA surveillance is a matter of public record, not a baseless allegation;
  2. By counter-reverting my revert of their first removal, SPECIFICO violated the DS/1RR restrictions in force;
  3. The exception to 1RR rule for egregious BLP violations does not apply here, by virtue of point 1;
  4. This attributed commentary was longstanding in the article, and it doesn't matter that Specifico may not like it;
  5. The commentary is relevant to the article's subject matter, given the prominence of Clapper's assertions in the intelligence reports about Russian interference (saying in essence "Trust my word because I can't show you proof");
  6. If there is a novel standard in Misplaced Pages that on-record false testimony by public figures should be "adjudicated in a court of law" before inclusion in the encyclopedia, I'm not aware of it yet, and will gladly argue the case at WP:BLP/N.

Accordingly, I urge SPECIFICO to immediately restore the erased text (which I can't do lest I violate 1RR too). In case Specifico or other editors still want this part removed, we can have a proper debate. — JFG 07:13, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

I see that Thucydides411 has restored the text. Thanks! — JFG 07:19, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Alert! This text is not worded to state "opinion" or "commentary". Edit warring. BLP violation. SPECIFICO talk 13:21, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

I've reverted my initial self-revert upon reflection: in my opinion, this does seem like a violation of BLP. The final imputation presented is that scepticism of his claims are warranted – yet, that is presented as a fact. It is the opinion of Binney and McGover, and we should indicate that.
@JFG: is there a way that this can perhaps be reworded as to clarify that this is the opinion of those two authors? I'd personally go for something a long the lines of "In the opinions of X and Y, expressed in (writing)" – but maybe articulated a little bit better. I just think as it stood it sounded as though we were relaying facts, not opinions, and that doesn't sit well with me re the BLP subject. Thoughts? —MelbourneStar☆ 14:36, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
This seems to be synthesis and UNDUE. This also seems to be cherry picking. Hence, I agree the above is an unwarranted BLP smear. Also, it seems obvious that Binney and McGovern are promulgating minority or fringe views. I think we need to dispense with this whole paragraph as UNDUE - imho. I do not see them as any kind of authority worth discussing or echoing in this Misplaced Pages article, based on this paragraph. I respect what Binney did as a whistleblower, but I think what happened to him seems to have given him cause for having a bias. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 15:25, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
This Baltimore Sun article, written by Binney and McGovern, is used as the most current source in that paragraph . And the statement above seems to have been derived from this source - a source which is a totally biased and seemingly agenda driven opinion piece. And, it is filled with supposition. Also, Binney and McGovern are using this article as platform to smear Clapper, for stuff that happened years ago.
And the smearing is being used as if it is a rationale for why the emails were leaked and not hacked. Hey, let's take a giant step backward, to July and August 2016, when the internet was filled with conspiracy theories similar to this. Binney is stuck in mid-year 2016 conspiracy theories. I don't have a problem with opinion pieces being used in articles, but not opinion pieces like this. I think this article should be removed as a source because it is not a reliable source. ------Steve Quinn (talk) 15:51, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

I sincerely do not understand what is unclear. The disputed sentence stars with "Binnen and McGovern wrote that…", clearly that's their statement, and the whole paragraph repeats their names three times, making it super clear that we are not speaking in wikivoice. We can still discuss whether their view is WP:DUE, however this is neither an attribution problem, nor is it a BLP issue per WP:PUBLICFIGURE. On the procedural side, I note that the DS/1RR notice saying "do not revert any edit challenged by reversion" is being blissfully ignored. Oh well… — JFG 16:53, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

@MelbourneStar, Steve Quinn, and JFG: I have used a direct quote from the Baltimore Sun piece to make it abundantly clear (I hope) that this is Binney and McGovern's view. Would you mind checking if this edit is reasonable? -Darouet (talk) 15:12, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
It's no improvement, in my opinion. Please, see my comments below (at 15:01, 12 Feb 17). Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 15:58, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

My understanding of DS/1RR is that longstanding material cannot be removed without consensus (this is the interpretation that MelanieN gave above). As far as I'm concerned, the original bold removal was fine, but once that removal was reverted, consensus would be required before it was attempted again. I don't see a consensus for the removal of Binney and McGovern's opinions here. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:23, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

  • Hopefully, it is understood that I agree with its removal as UNDUE, and as a BLP smear. It is not necessary to have this in the article and it only serves to denigrate Clapper. He must be doing something right if he has been working for the G.W. Bush administration and then the Obama administration. Cherry picking controversial aspects of national history that he was involved in serves no purpose, other than to rationalize a fringe view for Binney's and McGovern's audience. There seems to be some sort of consensus here for keeping this out. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 20:57, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
That's pure OH (original hypothesis not backed by any research). Also how is this WP:SYNTH? As for WP:BLP, go ahead and sue Politifact for libel. So no consensus. Guccisamsclub (talk) 22:45, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, there seems to be some sort of consensus here for keeping this out. Sorry Guccisamsclub, it seems you haven't offered anything to this thread just yet. But, thanks for your opinion. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 23:55, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
I repeat: Politifact is the original source for this"BLP smear" (or have you not read the article youre attacking? ...wouldn't be the first time). Also how is this SYNTH? Guccisamsclub (talk) 00:01, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
Just because you claim (or assert) it is Politico that is the original, doesn't make it so. And the only who cares that it is Politico, Smitico, or Bitico is you - sounding like a strawman to me. I'm not attacking anything. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 00:50, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
Read the Baltimore Sun article and check its url refrences. One of them will be politiFACT (NOT politiCO), which they cite in support of their "smear" of Clapper. Then read the Politifact piece. This is the third time you are being told to read the politifact piece cited in by McGovern and Binney. If you talk without reading, you are being disruptive. If you actively refuse to read, you are being intentionally disruptive. Guccisamsclub (talk) 12:30, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

@Thucydides411:Your understanding is shaky. One month is "longstanding"? Not. -- Not all editors are glued to their computers 24/7 -- in fact there may be a systematic bias toward freaks and geeks that favors such editors over the more worldly and broadly read among us. Be that as it may, there's no "longstanding" here. SPECIFICO talk 01:05, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

"more worldly and broadly read among us". Who do you have in mind? Yourself and Steve Quinn? Guccisamsclub (talk) 12:30, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
For this article, one month is long-standing. Above, MelanieN was talking about material that was not much older than that. Since there's no consensus for removing Binney and McGovern's commentary from the article, we can restore it. -Thucydides411 (talk) 02:06, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
Moral Relativism at its worst! Time doesn't bend to your level of interest. My schedule doesn't quicken when guys like you want to edit 'round the clock. Enjoy it but don't think that puts a burden on the community to run ourselves dizzy keeping up with your American Politics adrenaline rush. Long is long and one month ain't long. I read it on the Intercept. If you think you have permission to edit war BLP violations back into articles over and over, please post a note on Arbcom Enforcement Talk and see what reaction you get. SPECIFICO talk 02:40, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
SPECIFICO Instead of criticizing your fellow editors, how about answering my rationale above demonstrating that this attributed opinion, grounded in facts, about a public figure, was not a BLP violation? I'm listening. — JFG 03:09, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
I did. Immediately after your erroneous defence above. SPECIFICO talk 03:12, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
You mean with this comment? You just assert BLPVIO again, you give no argument to prove it, whereas I give several arguments to disprove it. — JFG 04:42, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
Here is one problem. First the Binney and McGovern opinion piece say input from Clapper in the Joint Analysis Report (JAR) is clearly absent. And that Clapper has a past of suppressing evidence pertaining to lack of WMD in Iraq and false testimony to Congress about NSA activities. There seems to be no connection between Clapper and the JAR at the time of this op-ed piece. Yet the above statement connects Clapper's past to being skeptical about "his" claims to Russian hacking.
BLP is seems clear on two a few fronts here. The above statement seems to equate with gossip WP:BLPGOSSIP in that displaying this information about Clapper in this paragraph is not relevant. Acting as if he is some sort of God and the only one to be believed or disbelieved is UNDUE - which BLP seems to consider as part of its policy in the intro as WP:NPOV. BLP seems to draw a line from that content policy to unnecessarily draging in dirt about a person.
And the reason people are bringing lack of conviction for a federal offense into the conversation is BLPCRIME, is because, again, it might be against good or stringent editing practices to drag in the dirt - recycle past offenses - if they are not relevant. Steve Quinn (talk)
I am not seeing how it is relevant to connect Clapper with being skeptical about Russian hacking and even the Harper's reference should say this in some way. Clapper has a questionable (or worse) past and therefore this supports the following conclusion - whatever the conclusion - does not seem to work. Also, the Binny/McGovern OpEd piece is a primary source. So if BLP is involved more than this is probably needed - I would say. Steve Quinn (talk) 06:03, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
If you think there's a BLP issue here, take it to the BLP noticeboard. I simply don't see any case for considering the material in question a BLP violation. First off, it's not "gossip" (i.e., unverifiable derogatory statements that pass from person to person). It's a comment on two widely known facts - that Clapper was involved in making the Iraq WMD case in 2002, and that his Senate testimony on NSA spying contained a prominent falsehood. We don't know these things through gossip. They're matters of public record, and Clapper's testimony is even on video. We're not repeating gossip here. As for WP:BLPCRIME, here's what the policy actually says: "For relatively unknown people, editors must seriously consider not including material in any article suggesting that the person has committed a crime, or is accused of having committed one, unless a conviction is secured" (emphasis added). Clapper is not relatively unknown. He's a public figure. And we're not even suggesting he's guilty of a crime. We're simply describing an opinion that notes a well known fact: Clapper's Senate testimony on NSA spying contained a falsehood.
"I am not seeing how it is relevant to connect Clapper with being skeptical about Russian hacking". You're not required to agree with Binney and McGovern's commentary on Clapper and skepticism about allegations of Russian hacking. All of us editors probably disagree with one or another commentary cited in this article, but agreement with commentary isn't (or shouldn't be) the metric we go by when deciding what commentary to reference. Binney and McGovern are fairly well known intelligence figures, so their commentary is noteworthy.
Finally, on the procedural issue here, the Binney/McGovern commentary was removed from the article, and this removal was challenged. That means that the second removal of the commentary was not in line with DS/1RR. This material has been in the article for more than a month (since 5 January), so it's long-standing. Above MelanieN described 58-day-old material as long-standing, and 37 days is a similar timespan. And to SPECIFICO's objection that this definition of long-standing puts an undue burden on editors, I'd just note that there are many editors here (SPECIFICO included) who edit this page several times a week. This material has been up for more than five weeks. How many times have you edited the article or commented on the talk page since then, SPECIFICO? This pace of editing clearly isn't an undue burden on you. So it looks like the correct course of action for now is for this long-standing material to be added back in, and then for anyone who thinks it violates BLP to take their concerns to the BLP noticeboard. -Thucydides411 (talk) 07:23, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
Thucydides411 I appreciate the above response. It is well articulated. I brought in specific BLP issues because JFG seemed to be requesting what specific BLP issues are relevant. Also, SPECIFICO and one other editor have brought BLP issues into this conversation. So, it might be premature to go over to the BLP noticeboard right now. I suggest seeing what others editors say about this. Steve Quinn (talk) 07:38, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
FWIW, I appreciate Steve Quinn's rationale although I disagree with his stance, and I fully endorse Thucydides411's response. As for process, I have now restored the contentious material, slightly copy-edited, into the article, pending the outcome of this discussion. — JFG 07:49, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
  • The sentence on Clapper needs to be deleted and the rest of the paragraph shortened. The lengthy quotes and indirect quotes give way too much prominence to these former members of the Intelligence Community. Any inside information Binney and McGovern have on the US intelligence community and its tools and methods is outdated by 15 and 26 years, respectively. Binney says that he "… created many of the collection systems still used by NSA". We’ll just have to take his word for it, don’t we?
Did they shop their opinion piece (770 words) around and find one taker? "Contributions to the Opinion-Commentary page of The Sun are welcome and should be between 600 and 750 words including a single sentence bio for the author(s)." (You won’t get paid but we’ll use it if we need to fill space and if you’ve used complete sentences.) Note how their single sentence bio does not mention that McGovern retired in 1990? No other RS picked up the op-ed or reported on it.
You have to factor in the personal bias the op-ed writers may have, in the case of Binney and McGovern their history with their former employers and their association with Assange. Binney is a regular RT contributor, and McGovern is an Assange associate. Here’s McGovern "… spread some truth around" on Feb 7, 2017: "Bill says the snooping has progressed to the point where the initials NSA now stand for “New Stasi Agency,” because NSA has become the East German Stasi (secret police) on steroids."
Clapper. Worded in what appears to be Misplaced Pages voice in text pretending to be indirect quotes. "They also wrote that given James Clapper's false testimony … and his involvement in building the WMD case …". The reference says that he "admitted giving … false testimony". He didn’t, although he admitted to some tiptoeing around; there’s that pesky "protecting national security secrets" thing. As for who built the WMD case, it’s pretty well established that it was the Bush administration (or certain factions in it) bending and stretching whatever reports they had. And all of that warranting "… skepticism about his claims of Russian hacking …": They’re not claims, they are accusations, and they are not his accusations, but those of the US Intelligence community.
"Long-standing text": To keep up with the changes, you'd have to have a lot of spare time to read the entire article 10 times a day, especially when you take the time to look at the references. Stuff gets overlooked for a while. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 15:00, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
Quite right 2x, and since disruptive editors may be highly motivated and extraordinarily observant, a fog of POV edits, policy violations, and counterattack strategies at Arbcom Enforcement are successful strategies in many cases. Many cases, but not all. SPECIFICO talk 15:36, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
@Space4Time3Continuum2x:He didn’t, although he admitted to some tiptoeing around; there’s that pesky "protecting national security secrets" thing. He admitted his answer was "wrong", but claimed to misunderstand a clearly-worded question, an excuse nobody has been willing to buy (talk about fringe). The fact that Clapper also has an incompatible backup excuse in the form of "national security reasons"—the reasons for everything—has no bearing on the fact that he gave a "wrong" answer. It just means his words are dictated by political and bureaucratic imperatives, not by the facts. It also means that he can't make an honest retraction. Such a reliable source... it’s pretty well established that it was the Bush administration (or certain factions in it) bending and stretching whatever reports they had. Read the Iraq thread on this page. The idea that the intelligence community was NOT deeply complicit—which seems to be what you're implying—in the manufacture of false WMD intel is a transparently WP:FRINGE Nancy Pelosi talking point.Guccisamsclub (talk) 15:53, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
@SPECIFICO: You have any verifiable statements you want to make, or just absurdly vague personal attacks? The only person consistently and successfully gaming Arbcom is you. Guccisamsclub (talk) 15:53, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
In their fifth paragraph Binney/McGovern make a claim ("Clapper admitted giving ... false testimony"), in their last paragraph it has become a given ("given Mr. Clapper's checkered record for accuracy"), and the indirect Misplaced Pages quote turned it into "given James Clapper's "false testimony ...". Pedantic semantics? Maybe so, but it's not neutral viewpoint, and the source is unreliable. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 16:25, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

@Space4Time3Continuum2x: I simply disagree with you that Binney and McGovern are such biased sources, compared to other commentators, that their views should just be excluded from the article. Arguments about length of text are fine - I'm not exactly sure how many sentences they deserve. But zero doesn't make any sense. Both Binney and McGovern had careers in the CIA, and are both now well known critics.

@SPECIFICO: please stop impugning the motives of other editors, darkly hinting at conspiracies, and rather focus on content. By repeatedly assuming bad faith, promising various forms of retaliation, you are making discussion very difficult. This is an editorial room: we don't need drama. -Darouet (talk) 18:59, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

I impugn no man nor beast. However WP says BLP violations must be removed until there's consensus the text is OK. And it has nothing to do with good faith bad faith or any other faith. When in doubt, take it out. Thx. SPECIFICO talk 19:27, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
@SPECIFICO: you said above, "disruptive editors may be highly motivated and extraordinarily observant, a fog of POV edits, policy violations, and counterattack strategies at Arbcom Enforcement are successful strategies in many cases..." Who are you referring to if not the editors who have disagreed with you here? -Darouet (talk) 19:31, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
Don't be so defensive. I'm a social scientist by training. I'm talking about the functioning of a self-governed volunteer community. Interestingly, your word "impugn" reminded me of the word "impunity" -- Good faith violations are still disruptive and that's not my opinion that is the mainstream Western view. I can't speak to Asian or other communities. SPECIFICO talk 19:36, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
Alright, well please consider striking your comments, or adding an addendum clarifying them. Based on your response here I will assume you're not referring to me other other editors on this page. -Darouet (talk) 19:51, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
I think my words are clear. I hope that you'll consider the underlying issue. Rather than focus on redacting talk page comments, perhaps you'll remove the disputed text from the article. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 20:17, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

I agree with Space4Time3Continuum2x, Steve Quinn, Casprings, and SPECIFICO here. Leaving aside BLP for the moment, I find the material at issue to be (1) undue; (2) out of scope; and (3) phrased in a POV way. (These are related concepts, but I think it's useful to think of each separately for the moment).
As to the first point, weight, as Space4 has noted before, "Any inside information Binney and McGovern have on the US intelligence community and its tools and methods is outdated by 15 and 26 years, respectively." Frankly, I do not find their views any more significant or salient than dozens or hundreds of other commentators and pundits. If we are to quote or paraphrase the views of commentators, I would far prefer the space be taken up by contemporary scholars of Russia, U.S.-Russia relations, or cybersecurity.
As to the second point, I think it's out of scope. Even if Clapper misled Congress about surveillance (and my personal belief, like many others such as Andrew Rosenthal, is that Clapper did lie to Senator Wyden), I don't think this has any direct bearing on Russian interference. To include this would be to make an atmospheric "he's not credible" argument that, if not misleading, at the very best requires an inferential leap.
As to the third point, Space4 is clearly correct that the indirect Misplaced Pages quote "given James Clapper's "false testimony ..." is improper and POV. It accepts as fact a highly contentious claim — one that Clapper has expressly denied (he has called his testimony "clearly erroneous" and said "I made a mistake. But I did not lie. There's a big difference."). Regardless of whether we find this credible personally, the news sources (not opinion sources) clearly don't say flat out that he lied (e.g., U.S. News: "To his critics, Clapper lied under oath"; PolitiFact: "A year later, Clapper’s testimony represents one of the great, and unfortunate, holes in timely fact-checking. The challenge in discerning whether those with privileged information, particularly on matters of national security, are speaking truthfully in public is a difficult, if not impossible, task.").
So yes, this should be excluded. Neutrality 19:43, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
(1) Agreed: their views are worthwhile, and so are others. Let's find some more. — JFG 21:41, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
(2) This "inference leap" is exactly the point of Binnen and McGovern's commentary, and it's fair game, given the "inference leaps" that the intelligence services want the public to accept. ("Looks like the DNC hacker spoke Russian, therefore only Putin could have directed such a complex operation.") As long as their inference is attributed and not misrepresented, I see no problem. — JFG 21:41, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
(3) Yes, we can and should work on the formulation to clearly convey the authors' opinion without distorting it, condoning it or dismissing it. — JFG 21:41, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
Replying to the points that Neutrality made, one by one:
1. undue: The fact that Binney and McGovern are no longer working in intelligence doesn't disqualify them as commentators. In fact, the section their views are included in is under the heading "Commentary and reactions : Intelligence community : Former members." Unless that whole section is undue, I don't see how Binney and McGovern's views are undue.
2. out of scope: Binney and McGovern are directly addressing the subject of this article: allegations of Russian interference in the 2016 US elections. They raise the question of Clapper's trustworthiness because he's one of the principle people publicly making accusations of Russian hacking. In Binney and McGovern's view, the evidence that has been presented publicly is weak, and the person asking everyone to trust the allegations is not trustworthy. You can agree or disagree with Binney and McGovern on this, but they are making an argument that is relevant to this article, and they are well known former intelligence officers. We're not really here to debate whether we think one commentator's argument is convincing or not, but rather whether it is relevant to the article and whether we're representing the range of opinions on the subject accurately.
3. phrased in a POV way: I think the claim that Clapper gave false testimony is clearly attributed (especially now that it's in quotation marks), but if you think there's a better way to phrase the relevant sentence, without losing the meaning of what Binney and McGovern are trying to say, then please propose an alternate wording.
-Thucydides411 (talk) 06:58, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

The way that second sentence is presented is clearly a BLP violation. I also agree that this is essentially UNDUE, although I'm not clear on whether this is a "regular" opinion piece by Baltimore Sun or one of those "commentary" ones, which are really just glorified letters to the editor.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:50, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

I have removed the specific part regarding false claims as that is the bit I find to be a BLP-problem. I do think the entire section is probably an undue reference, an opinion-piece in the baltimore sun does not seem to me to be notable enough for inclusion. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:45, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

@Only in death: in your article edit summary you wrote, "Quote does not appear in source, source only has two mentions of 'false' one of which states Clapper admitted giving Congress false testimony which AFAIK is not the case. Removed as BLP concern." However the Baltimore Sun op ed clearly states:

"Mr. Clapper has admitted giving Congress on March 12, 2013, false testimony regarding the extent of NSA collection of data on Americans. Four months later, after the Edward Snowden revelations, Mr. Clapper apologized to the Senate for testimony he admitted was "clearly erroneous.""

My edit placing the direct quote in the article text uses the same language:

"They also wrote that given James Clapper's "false testimony regarding the extent of NSA collection of data on Americans," and his involvement in building the WMD case against Iraq, skepticism about his claims of Russian hacking was warranted."

Do you see how those quotes are the same, and that your edit summary was incorrect?

It is a matter of record that Clapper gave testimony to congress that was incorrect: . His lawyer has stated that his testimony - that the NSA (which he oversaw) was not collecting data on millions of American citizens - was "not an untruth or a falsehood. This was just a mistake." Clapper himself described his testimony as "clearly erroneous."

It is extraordinary to state that quoting former senior intelligence officials who call the testimony "false" amounts to a WP:BLP violation. Misplaced Pages is WP:NOTCENSORED and attributing such a statement to officials is a normal part of neutrally, accurately describing the kind of conversation that takes place (and is taking place) in a Democracy. -Darouet (talk) 15:52, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

1. An opinion piece is not a suitable source for contentious claims about living people. 2. The source says 'Mr. Clapper has admitted giving Congress on March 12, 2013, false testimony regarding the extent of NSA collection of data on Americans.' Which he has not, what he *has* said is that he gave information in error. They are not the same. 'I told a lie' is not the same as 'I said something that later turned out to not be true'. You are using the second to justify the first, albeit because the source does so. If this was a high quality reliable source the claim would at least have some weight behind it. This is an opinion piece which is not. Opinion pieces are rarely acceptable for claims about living people. 3.You are unlikely to convince me or anyone else who deals on a regular basis with BLP concerns that an op-ed is acceptable for a criminal allegation *as a passing comment* on a larger article, so I wouldnt bother trying. 4. It appears from above there are numerous other complaints about the piece in general (unrelated to the BLP issue) that indicate it fails NPOV/is UNDUE. So I suggest you concentrate on that. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:13, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
@Only in death: If you have BLP concerns, take them to the BLP noticeboard. As it is, you're in violation of the 1RR rules here, and you should self-revert your latest edit. -Thucydides411 (talk) 17:03, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
BLP reverts are exempt from revert restrictions as you have been told multiple times. *I* am not required to take it you the BLPN, but if you wish to, feel free. I, Marek and others have stated here why that particular information is problematic. You now need to demonstrate there is consensus here to reinsert it per WP:BLP and since it was orginally removed by Specifico a few days ago, the BIG DS NOTICE at the top of this page states it should not have been reinstated absent consensus to do so. So even if you did manage to gain consensus its not a BLP concern, you still could not reinstate it per the DS notice above - and given the arguments below regarding the baltimore sun reference in general, that consensus is not yet forthcoming. So no, I wont be reinstating it, you have been made aware it requires consensus to reinstate it, if you put it back again you will be violating both the DS applied to this page and WP:BLP. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:25, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
@Only in death: I agree that it is fine to have a conversation about WP:DUE or WP:NPOV, but you are incorrect to think that comments by public figures calling Clapper's testimony "false" violate WP:BLP. Under the rubric you propose, any prominent, public criticism of powerful government officials that implies misconduct cannot even be reproduced with attribution here, unless those officials have been convicted of a crime. That would include statements by elected representatives of the American people, journalists, and in this case former intelligence officials and whistleblowers. This is not a standard enforced elsewhere, and certainly does not obtain at the page James R. Clapper. -Darouet (talk) 17:22, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
The 'standard' is that in general opinion pieces are primary sources for the opinion of the author. This means they are treated on an individual basis depending on the opinion, where its published, the material it is supporting. Opinion pieces are almost never used regarding material *about* living people regardless of who is who, due to the BLP generally prohibiting primary sources in that context. Were the authors quoted by a reporter in a newspaper in a non-op-ed this would not be an issue. This is a standard universally applied across wikipedia and is reflected in WP:PRIMARY, WP:RS and WP:BLP Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:41, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
We're not using an opinion piece to make any statements of fact. We're reporting the opinion of the authors, which involves the public actions of Clapper, a prominent public figure. The authors of that opinion piece comment on a well known scandal that Clapper was involved in, where he gave Senate testimony that turned out to be false (according to numerous reliable sources). The standard you're trying to establish would prevent us from citing any opinion that mentions misconduct by a public figure. That goes for Vladimir Putin as well, so unless you're prepared to also scrub the article of any mention of Putin's alleged involvement in the US elections, I think you'll have to rethink your position on BLP as it applies to public figures.
On the policy question, BLP claims are not some sort of wonder weapon that trump all other policy. There is some burden on you to show that your BLP concerns are actually valid (and as you see here, several editors disagree with your interpretation of BLP and public figures), and I think that if your case really is strong, you should bring it to the BLP noticeboard. But as the situation stands, I think you're using a very tenuous BLP claim to remove long-standing material, in violation of 1RR restrictions. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:57, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
  • I shortened the paragraph on Binney/McGovern. The other experts were cited in one sentence each, so citing this dissenting opinion in an entire paragraph with several direct quotes is undue. I removed the contentious sentence on Clapper pending the outcome of this discussion; shouldn't have been reinserted when it was. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 19:50, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
It is clear as a bell. The material is contentious. It is sourced on an opinion piece considered to be bereft of facts. Contentious material regarding a living person must be well sourced. In other words, there have to be fact based secondary sources that state Clapper gave false testimony therefore intelligence regarding Russian interference in the US election should be treated with skepticism. So far no such sources have been provided.
Also, if we read carefully, Binney/McGovern are saying Trump should be skeptical. They do not say there should be skepticism. So, it seems to me, even this was incorrectly placed in the article. But I doubt it can be placed in the article anyway, because there are not enough reliable sources that say Clapper's false testimony equals skepticism for Trump or otherwise, about 2016-2017 intelligence reports on Russian interference in US elections. On that second idea, there might be sources that say Trump should be skeptical in relation to Clapper, about aforementioned Intel reports, I don't know. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 00:54, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Thucydides has reverted my edit with the comment that there was no consensus for removal. Wouldn't consensus to restore have been necessary?. I stand by my reasons for removing the sentence on Clapper and shortening the rest of the paragraph to remove the prominence given to a minority opinion. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 07:57, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

The alternative BLP-friendly encyclopedia

Thucydides411 expresses an interesting angle to this dispute: what would happen if we applied SPECIFICO and OID's interpretation of the BLPVIO policy, being unable to cite anybody criticizing a living person, and unable to restore such material once censored by some editor who doesn't like it? Let's examine a few random snippets from this wonderful alternate world:

Article Before After
James R. Clapper, lead section Two U.S. representatives accused Clapper of perjury for telling a congressional committee in March 2013, that the NSA does not collect any type of data at all on millions of Americans. One senator asked for his resignation, and a group of 26 senators complained about Clapper's responses under questioning. Media observers have described Clapper as having lied under oath, having obstructed justice, and having given false testimony. (This paragraph intentionally left blank)
Donald Trump, lead section Many of his statements in interviews, on social media, and at campaign rallies were controversial or false.
(Regulars at the Trump article will fondly remember the months of angst and megabytes of arguments expended on keeping or removing those famous two words "or false" — a case that is thankfully now settled)		 Many of his statements in interviews, on social media, and at campaign rallies were controversial.
(So much simpler, isn't it?)
Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations 90 kB of prose, 20+ accusers (Article deleted)
Hillary Clinton#Response to Lewinsky scandal Public reaction varied. Some women admired her strength and poise in private matters that were made public, some sympathized with her as a victim of her husband's insensitive behavior, others criticized her as being an enabler to her husband's indiscretions, while still others accused her of cynically staying in a failed marriage as a way of keeping or even fostering her own political influence. Public reaction was unanimous. Women admired her strength and poise in private matters that were made public, and sympathized with her as a victim of her husband's insensitive behavior.
Edward Snowden#Reaction A subject of controversy, Snowden has been variously called a hero, a whistleblower, a dissident, a patriot, and a traitor. Snowden has been variously called a hero, a whistleblower, and a patriot.

I sincerely hope everybody sees the problem… — JFG 02:03, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

  • Shoving my comment in here as I have been busy and I dont expect a response: The BIOs for Trump and Clapper should certainly *not* have op-ed pieces making claims about them. They should have either news reporting articles or other secondary sources to back up anything controversial. If you are stating that the Donald Trump article has *in the lead* contentious material sourced to an opinion piece, well I will be very surprised. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:20, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
This is a BS argument. No one is saying don't put in a well sourced fact about a living person. People are saying don't put in a tidbit from an OP about a living person in an article that is only tangentially linked to that person. To present this in this way is, in my opinion, willfully misrepresenting the viewpoints of other editors. I would ask that you hat this section. Casprings (talk) 02:10, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
@Casprings: - Is it a fact that "Media observers have described Clapper as having lied under oath," or is that a BLP violation? Binney and McGovern say Clapper gave false testimony to congress. That's a BLP violation, but the "Media observers..." statement isn't? What about Snowden - "Snowden has been a... traitor." Is that a fact, or a BLP violation? JFG is exactly right. -Darouet (talk) 03:12, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
"Tidbit" is subjective and irrelevant. The substance of your argument, if I understand:
  • Clapper's past testimony before congress – widely considered false and/or misleading – is only tangentially related to speculation about the accuracy of his most recent testimony.
Is that right? As best I can tell the chart above is an accurate representation of the BLP standards advocated for Clapper in this discussion applied consistently. James J. Lambden (talk) 02:40, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
I'm also interested in how we're going to apply this standard to references to Putin's personal and malevolent orchestration of the election of Donald Trump. Putin is mentioned... some 50 times in the text of this article? -Darouet (talk) 03:07, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
WP:JDLI is a misrepresentation of some editors' view and is therefore POV. Also, this whole chart is WP:OTHERSTUFF. JDLI doesn't concern editors concerned with BLP, but it does seem to concern one editor who even uses it in the edit history as an explanation, as well as the talk page. For the record, I wish to state that JDLI is not really a policy or guideline. Moving on - of course Clapper's testimony and mea culpa has been widely derided by his critics - this is true. But Clapper himself admitted to only making a mistake. So either way, this does not seem like a useful bridge for countering the widely touted (or widely accepted) Russian interference in US elections. However, it would seem there could be some WP:RS that counters this view, even if it seems to be a minority view. I suggest bundling a bunch of contemporary counterpoint commentary and present day WP:RS and summarize it. Just an idea. Steve Quinn (talk) 03:43, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused by this chart (as well as some of the follow up statements by, for example, James J. Lambden, but as best I can make out, the argument seems to be "I didn't get my way on these other articles so I won't let you have your way on this article". How does that make sense? Also note that several of these other articles were subject to RfCs.

And yes, this is a strawman. Or rather strawmen. For example, with Snowden - if there's a ton of sources in which somebody calls him something, then yeah, we include it. Here we have a *single* source, which is an op-ed. The difference is not that hard to understand.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

It isn't hard to understand unless you wish to misunderstand.Casprings (talk) 06:02, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
This chart is obviously hyperbolic sarcasm meant to illustrate the extreme point where we would be headed if we took the arguments presented in this discussion literally. Now you say the standard to include an accusatory claim towards a living person is that several sources should be leveling the same accusation? Head over to James R. Clapper and find dozens of them, resulting in a pretty solid lead paragraph that I quoted in the chart. If said accusations (duly attributed) can be included there, surely they can be included here. — JFG 06:09, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
And VM, please don't cast aspersions, there is no question of "having my way", I don't even care that much about the case in dispute here, I was just doing a routine revert among a bout of cleanup (16 edits). However some arguments advanced in this case drove me to seriously point out a flawed reasoning about BLPs taken to its logical consequences. Note that the absurdity highlighted in the examples I chose applies equally to polar opposites Trump or Clinton, Clapper or Snowden: it doesn't matter which POV editors have or whether they have one, it just censors any and all criticism of living persons "unless adjudicated in a court of law". Oops. Not my encyclopedia. — JFG 07:51, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
People here and elsewhere have been asserting that Clapper is a "reliable source" and that the intelligence agencies should be trusted. So how is it irrelevant to point out facts that contradict this assertion? Binney and McGovern belong to the paragraph by virtue of being former intelligence officers, and these facts are relevant to the article by virtue being brought up by B&M (and others) in connection with the topic. (BTW if Snowden is a "traitor", Clapper is a "lia....") Guccisamsclub (talk) 08:15, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
The difference is that the CIA have seen the data they are talking about (and we can assume so did Clapper due to his position), Binney and McGovern have not.Slatersteven (talk) 11:04, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
@Slatersteven: For the umpteenth time: US intel says they have seen "the data", which nobody else has seen, nevermind independently verified. When attempts are made to verify their claims, they sometimes turn out to be totally false. So your latest post demonstrates precisely why M&B's point is so important. Guccisamsclub (talk) 11:57, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
If I assume the text at the start of this is the text under dispute, they are not saying that the CIA are wrong, they are saying Clapper cannot be trusted. As this page is not about Clapper their opinions of him are not appropriate (that should be on his page). Moreover (as others have said) their opinion of his honesty is not really all that relevant, him being wrong (well alleged top be wrong) a few times does not mean everything he say is wrong. This seems undue as it is n not about the subject of the article, but about opinions about someones opinions.Slatersteven (talk) 12:14, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
wrong a few times does not mean everything he say is wrong. NOBODY HAS SAID THAT. alleged top be wrong. Clapper SAID his answer was "wrong". After Snowden, not a single RS believes Clapper's answer to have been true, because it would obviously be absurd. Clapper cannot be trusted Imagine that. Guccisamsclub (talk) 12:31, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
So then it is irrelevant if he has been wrong in the past, it says nothing about his correctness now.Slatersteven (talk) 12:35, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Another question, do we say Donald Trump or Vladmir Putin have told lies in the past?Slatersteven (talk) 12:35, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
@Slatersteven: These are incredibly tone-deaf statements. "So then it is irrelevant if he has been wrong in the past" No, the fact that a source has a terrible record with the truth is relevant to assessing the credibility of statements that have not been independently verified. That's pretty much rule #1 of journalism, however hypocritically applied it may be. "do we say Donald Trump or Vladmir Putin have told lies in the past?" If this article had consisted overwhelmingly of statements from Trump/ists and Putin/ites — with editors and Russian sources chiming in about how those two are official "reliable sources" that know all and see all — then YES. Of course any editors who attempt to create such an article and to argue that T&P are "reliable", will not even be subjected to criticism of their "sources" — they will be swiftly and permanently banned. Guccisamsclub (talk) 13:09, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
So do we mention any other persons honesty (or lack of it) in the article?Slatersteven (talk) 13:20, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
@Slatersteven: Sure. Go ahead and find a source that says the Russian officials can't be trusted on their hacking denials because they are known liars. This may be harder than it looks. Decent sources tend to refrain from stating the blatantly obvious, because that's seen as condescension to readers and a waste of column space. That's likely how it will be seen by readers of this article. But if that's what it takes to keep M&B, I have no problem. Guccisamsclub (talk) 13:36, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
So no we do not. So this is a reason to exclude doing it in this case.Slatersteven (talk) 13:44, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Anyone see that 180? Radical stuff. Yes, time to close the curtains! Guccisamsclub (talk) 14:02, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Time to close this

This is going round in circles, I think we now need to determine if consensus exists to include this, please just put your own opinion (as a vote) do not comment on others opinion here.Slatersteven (talk) 13:49, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

  • Note the wording: "if consensus exists to include this." This edit is a over a month old and comes from an RS (reliable for the reactions of two former intel members, at the very least). On those grounds consensus is needed to exclude this content. Consensus is needed to include this continent if and only if the BLP concerns have merit. It is clear that not everyone here thinks they do. Guccisamsclub (talk) 15:24, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Given the concern shown about non neutral wording I shall change it.

Updated wording

This is going round in circles, I think we now need to determine if consensus exists to exclude this, please just put your own opinion (as a vote) do not comment on others opinion here.Slatersteven (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

And perhaps if we find no consensus, we should take the fundamental issue to WP:BLP/N. — JFG 23:05, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
You are free to take it to BLPN at any time. You're not free to edit war or to insert BLP violations into Misplaced Pages. You don't need to ask permission to get advice at BLPN. SPECIFICO talk 23:15, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Sure. Let's see if we get an amicable consensual resolution below, perhaps including some re-wording to alleviate BLP concerns; that would be the best outcome. NOTE: I did not insert anything in this dispute, I did not write this text or find this source myself, I don't even have a strong personal opinion on the subject matter, but I believe this quote is a valid and relevant opinion that should be presented to readers among others. So I just restored what somebody else had written much earlier, after you deleted it. The ensuing slow edit war stems from a "who shot first" situation where you feel legitimate because of BLP and I feel legitimate because of DS. If we do not reach consensus here, BLPN can help us determine a logical outcome by clarifying whether Binney's position qualifies as a BLP violation against Clapper. If there is a BLPVIO, you are entitled to remove it. If there is no BLPVIO, my argument is correct and the content can stay (unless deemed undue by another consensus). — JFG 23:27, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
There's nothing about BLPN advice that is not "amicable". As for your edit warring, you're flat-out contradicting what WP behavioral guidelines and DS have to say on the subject. There's no safe harbor. I suggest you read up on the subject of reverts and Edit Warring, not to mention DS. If you're hanging your hat on how you spin a comment here by MelanieN, I think that your hat is on thin ice, so to speak. SPECIFICO talk 00:40, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
I'm not warring. Please keep cool. We disagree on whether mentioning Binney's opinion is a BLPVIO, that's all there is to it. — JFG 07:44, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Include

  • This info is relevant to the article, properly attributed, relevant to the section (reactions from former intelligence members) and not remotely a blp-vio. If people think calling Clappers statement on surveillance "false" is too harsh, we can substitute "wrong", which is the word Clapper himself has used. Either way, sourcing this is trivial (we can cite the politifact piece cited by M&B or a dozen other sources) and there's no conceivable reason for exclusion based on BLP. Guccisamsclub (talk) 15:07, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
  • I still fail to see how Clapper's admission that he gave a "wrong" answer when testifying to Congress on mass surveillance can be considered a BLPVIO here whereas it's perfectly fine in Clapper's article, including a long paragraph of multiple people accusing him of lying or misrepresenting the extent of the NSA activities; in the lead, no less. This is all established, sourced and admitted, there is no smear and no BLP violation. Binney develops an argumentation based on those historical facts and alleges that Clapper should not be trusted in this new case, well that's his opinion and we cite it as such. Readers are smart enough to accept or reject Binney's stance, it's not the job of Misplaced Pages editors to condone it or suppress it. — JFG 22:57, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Exclude

  • As far as I can tell no one else's opinions of this have had their history of lying pointed out, so why this person. Seems Undue and POV pushy.Slatersteven (talk) 13:51, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
  • I have general NPOV/UNDUE issues with the entire section. Setting the specific BLP issue aside for the moment: Are the opinions of these people a reflection of a majority or a significant minority opinion? Are there other reliable sources (read: not directly related to Trump and/or Russia) that indicate that the dossier is problematic based on who (Clapper) supports it/believes its credible? I dont think so, so NPOV indicates to me this particular source is UNDUE. RE the BLP issue, specifically alledging *admission of* a crime requires much better sourcing than an op-ed. So that needs to stay out regardless. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:30, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Per my detailed comments above. My position is based primarily on UNDUE concerns rather than BLP or NPOV, but the BLP concerns are colorable, so the burden of establishing consensus to include it likely rests with the proponents to the content. Neutrality 15:15, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
  • This is something that needs to be decided on the merits of the contentious material. If a majority decided to include, there’d still be the problems of undue weight (depth of detail, quantity of text) and POV. "Writing in the Baltimore Sun" - makes it sound as if it was the paper’s position when it was merely an op-ed piece stating the writers’ opinion. As for the sentence on Clapper, it’s ad hominem, attacking the man rather than the substance of the argument itself, shooting the messenger to kill the message. Removing part of the sentence was an improvement but what’s left is still POV made to sound like undisputed fact when it’s not. See also my comments above. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 16:22, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
"Writing in the Baltimore Sun" - makes it sound as if it was the paper’s position when it was merely an op-ed piece – Quite the opposite: this wording clearly establishes that Binney and McGovern did the writing, not the Baltimore Sun reporters. We could certainly make it extra-super-crystal-clear by saying In an opinion piece published by the Baltimore Sun, Binney and McGovern wrote that… Agree to this? — JFG 12:14, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
"Extra-super-crystal-clear"? How about the following text (I haven't included the references)? Removes the undue weight given to these minor luminaries of the minority opinion by extensive citing and quoting and the contentious claim against/smear of Clapper, and makes it clear that the Sun piece is an op-ed, i.e., unsolicited and unpaid by the Sun.

William Binney, a former high-ranking official in the NSA, expressed doubt about reports of Russian involvement in the DNC leaks. In an op-ed in the Baltimore Sun, Binney and Ray McGovern wrote that the report published by the FBI and DHS on December 29 "fell embarrassingly short" of the goal of proving Russian hacking and that the DNC emails were leaked by an insider.

On the significance of Binney/McGovern’s opinion as cited in Cockburn’s Harper’s article: The Belfer Center's Russia Analytical Report, Nov. 15-21, 2016, summarizes Cockburn's article under the heading "New Cold War/saber rattling". The only mention of the hacking/interference/whatever is this: "Cockburn ... begins by shedding some doubt on allegations that Russia was behind the infamous hacks of the U.S. presidential campaign." And that's all it is: A "currently in the news" intro to a long article about an alleged new cold war. The summary mentions two interviewees by name and does not mention Binney/McGovern at all, i.e., they're not important enough to mention as "significant commentary". Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 01:55, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Clear BLP violation and UNDUE and marginal cherrypicked source to confirm a Trump denial BLP-smear narrative. And BLP violations are often associated with UNDUE weight and NPOV violations that should be apparent to any thougthful, policy-focused WP editor. SPECIFICO talk 18:02, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
  • WP:BLP and WP:UNDUE. It is coming from an OP and it is one source. Not one source that represents multiple, but a lone source. Casprings (talk) 04:31, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
  • First, I agree with Space Time. The quote in Cockburn, is cherry picked out of an article that covers a different topic "threat inflation", a Cockburn thesis. It is undue and POV to give prominence to this quote. The quote as placed in this article gives the impression Cockburn's article is about downplaying hacking/interference. The Harper article's scope is much broader than that.
Second, relying on a flimsy opinion (primary source) piece to back up Binney/McGovern comments that say email leaked by insider is introducing POV, when multiple reliable sources say this is not the case, is giving undue prominence in this article, to less than marginal commentary. Independent reliable sources are needed that say this is so, not just this flimsy opinion piece.
Leaving aside BLP for the Clapper comment. Again this is introducing POV, giving undue prominence, to less than marginal commentary, because no independent secondary (reliable) sources cover this in this way. Especially get rid of the email leaked by insider comment - this is pure conjecture because not even Binney/McGovern offer any evidence, besides other reputable sources not saying this. Steve Quinn (talk) 03:51, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Clapper sentence

It seems, according to the AE decision, the following sentence was not supposed to be restored: "They also wrote that given James Clapper's involvement in building the WMD case against Iraq, skepticism about his claims of Russian hacking was warranted.". A consensus is needed for this to be in the article. No consensus has emerged, so I think the sentence should be taken out, until such a consensus is apparent. Any volunteers? ---Steve Quinn (talk) 03:05, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

I put my head on the chopping block and removed it since there is a 7:2 majority favoring removal. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 12:28, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
No problem with removing the lengthy quote, however I feel that we still need to mention that they questioned Clapper's integrity; adding a brief statement. — JFG 07:18, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Rephrasing Binney/McGovern paragraph

Putting my proposed version to a vote (references same as in current text)? My version removes the undue weight given to these minor luminaries of the minority opinion by extensive citing and quoting and makes it clear that the Sun piece is an op-ed, i.e., unsolicited and unpaid by the Sun.

William Binney, a former high-ranking official in the NSA, expressed doubt about reports of Russian involvement in the DNC leaks. In an op-ed in the Baltimore Sun, Binney and Ray McGovern wrote that the report published by the FBI and DHS on December 29 "fell embarrassingly short" of the goal of proving Russian hacking and that the DNC emails were leaked by an insider.

On the significance of Binney/McGovern’s opinion as cited in Cockburn’s Harper’s article: The Belfer Center's Russia Analytical Report, Nov. 15-21, 2016, summarizes Cockburn's article under the heading "New Cold War/saber rattling". The only mention of the hacking/interference/whatever is this: "Cockburn ... begins by shedding some doubt on allegations that Russia was behind the infamous hacks of the U.S. presidential campaign." And that's all it is: A "currently in the news" intro to a long article about an alleged new cold war. The summary mentions two interviewees by name and does not mention Binney/McGovern at all, i.e., they're not important enough to mention as "significant commentary". Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 12:41, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Space Time I appreciate your efforts here. However, I can see no content policy support for having this in this Misplaced Pages article. Anything pertaining to that OPed piece by Binney/McGovern is marginal to the point of obscurity. For me, the point is, there is no independent secondary sourcing that support any of their views as stated in the OPed piece. Also, their (Binney/McGovern's) opinion in Cockburn's Harper's article is not supported by independent secondary sourcing - so this also should not be in this Misplaced Pages article. It is equally obscure.
I think the best we can do is cite the quoted summation of Cockburn's Harper's article that you provided - using the Harper's article itself and The Belfer Center article for sources. In other words, use that summation, and use those two citations. This could replace the entire Binney/McGovern paragraph - all this is imho. What do you think of my reply? ---Steve Quinn (talk) 02:29, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Use alternative proposal as follows

Removed 'Baltimore Sun' reference

I removed this reference because it does not seem to be reliable, or in any way tries to engage in facts. If interested see my comments in the above section. Although the "Baltimore Sun" newspaper is considered a reliable source, this particular reference should not be considered as such. It appears to be a totally biased and seemingly agenda driven opinion piece. And, it seems filled with supposition. Comments? --Steve Quinn (talk) 16:23, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Oh great, so now their statement stands unsourced, so I suppose the next step is to delete it entirely? Sure, these are biased statements, and they are attributed accordingly. Quoting biased statements is fine, provided they are attributed and representative of a serious minority viewpoint. See WP:BIASED:

Misplaced Pages articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject.

You may argue to exclude this source per WP:FRINGE but I'm not convinced: Clapper's integrity has been criticized by dozens and dozens of sources. — JFG 17:02, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
As has been said, bias is not a reason for exclusion (if you think it should be take it to the RSN noticeboard).Slatersteven (talk) 17:12, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
@Steve Quinn: The Baltimore Sun opinion piece was included under the "Commentary and Reactions" section of the article. It's not being used to source statements of fact, but to relay opinions. Many of the opinions in the "Commentary and Reactions" section are agenda-driven and totally biased, but that doesn't mean that they don't merit inclusion in this article. As long as they're noteworthy, properly attributed, and given appropriate weight, then their inclusion is fine. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:15, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
See "News organizations": "Editorial commentary...are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author." Since we are using the commentary to source its authors opinions, it is wholly reliable. WP:FRINGE does not say that minority views should be excluded, just that they be presented as minority views. Ray McGovern and William Binney have gone against orthodox views in the past: Binney questioned whether Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction or whether torture is a good practice, while Binney questioned the merits of the NSA monitoring communications of ordinary Americans. But crazy as their ideas may be, they are frequently mentioned in mainstream media. TFD (talk) 19:10, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
This seems to be WP:UNDUE to place an opinion in this article that basically alleges a felony crime by a living person. I agree with excluding this. Casprings (talk) 20:05, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
It's an "opinion"? Well duh. The section deals with reactions from the former spies. Per WP:BLP, nobody can dispute a US official's testimony unless said official has been convicted of a felony? It must be true, otherwise the official would be in jail, right? Give.me.a.break. Obviously only officials of certain nationalities are eligible for this absurd "safe space" treatment (officials from bad countries can qualify for "you're a thief/killer/thug" treatment, no court docs required). You think Binney and McGovern are "unreliable"? You also thought that the intel community did not conclude Iraq had WMDs, that the hacking findings are endorsed by 17 agencies, and plenty of other mind-bending stuff. Frankly Steve, you are not in a position to critique any source on this topic (this applies to SPEC too). Guccisamsclub (talk) 20:51, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
I don't know anything about being convicted of a felony or what bearing that has on anything. I'm not bringing that into this argument. This piece is pure speculation, bereft of facts. This has nothing to do with any US official's testimony. Well, except for the fact that Binney and McGovern are trying to bring that into the conversation. Just because Clapper was involved with the Iraq fiascos has no bearing on what is happening now.
This has to do with speculation supported by by a U.S. official's former behavior, and the behavior of the NSA. And so what about the intel report on Iraq. I was relying on memory, had never seen that report before, and I was overall accurate except for the Intel report. There were no WMD's discovered when the troops went in, and the Bush administration was admonished in the press for it.
Big deal about about an Intel report from 15 years ago. Also, I really don't need you trying to impugn my capabilities just because you won one argument. So what. Big deal. Have cigar or whatever you do. As far as leaving this out, I would like to hear more input from other editors. Also, I am studying the links to policies and guidelines that people have posted in this thread. Thanks.Steve Quinn (talk) 21:21, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
Guccisamsclub If you think this piece is reliable then I am really surprised. I don't know about Binney and McGovern in general - but this editorial is really lacking. --Steve Quinn (talk) 21:27, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
"I was overall accurate except for the Intel report" No, just no. Drinking Jack Daniels and having some Snus, fwiw. Guccisamsclub (talk) 21:40, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
Guccisamsclub Is this the best you can do - personal insults and disrespectful behavior? Well, I guess this means I was overall accurate. Thanks. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 21:48, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
No. Guccisamsclub (talk) 22:19, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
Casprings thinks that it is WP:UNDUE to report an opinion that basically alleges a felony crime by a living person in an article that basically alleges a felony crime by a living person - hacking computer systems and influencing an election. UNDUE btw says that articles should present the opinions that are presented in reliable sources not that allegations of bad behavior should not be mentioned. The Baltimore Sun is one of the most repected newspapers in the U.S. They've been publishing opinions that basically allege felony crimes by living persons since 1837, including by David Simon, whose stories were the basis of "Homicide: Life on the Street" and "The Wire." They know more about what is legimate to publish than we do. TFD (talk) 23:11, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
One is the intelligence conclusions by the US and reported in numerous WP:RS and officially released by the government. The other is an OP piece in a paper. A decent paper, but still an OP piece in a paper. Not nearly the same thing. Casprings (talk) 23:22, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
TFD, you are an esteemed member of the community here, but I am struck by the vapid Straw Man argument and false analogy here. WRT the first, suffice it to say it sounds as if you're putting words in Casprings mouth. WRT the second, the Baltimore Sun is publishing primary and secondary documents whereas we here are in the third tier, where the sourcing is much more limited. But I think you knew both those points, actually. Maybe they escaped others who might read them. SPECIFICO talk 23:52, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Pierre Sprey

I deleted the sentence on Pierre Sprey: An analyst of military budgets and programs way before the end of the Cold War? ("Breaking news: Earthquake in Japan. Here’s our reporter on the scene in India, reporting from the same hemisphere.") Spray was an aeronautical engineer working for the Pentagon until 1986 who then went into the business of recording music. Ah yes, 1986. Good times: The Macintosh Plus and only another year to wait for Microsoft Works for DOS and Star Trek TNG. "Of course," he added with a laugh, "the art of creating threats has advanced tremendously since that primitive era." They exaggerated the size of Russia’s guns back then, so they’re lying about Russia's interference now? Sheesh. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 15:08, 12 February 2017 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 15:09, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Hey @Space4Time3Continuum2x: I don't have any attachment to Sprey as an individual, but they are being quoted by Andrew Cockburn - a frequent, notable commentator on international affairs - in Harper's Magazine. Sprey is effectively cited to describe the notion of "threat inflation." While I don't mind eliminating Sprey's name in the article, I think we should somehow reference the idea, either by quoting Cockburn, or Sprey. -Darouet (talk) 19:48, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
This article has nothing to do with threat inflation, the projections of Cheney's WMD to the contrary notwithstanding. This article is about what happened. Not drumming up hysteria to bomb a country to smithereens. Old opinions on the subject -- more than a week old now, with fresh revelations -- are worth very little. I suggest we find fresh commentary to the extent commentary is needed for this encyclopedia article. SPECIFICO talk 20:23, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
That wholly misses the point: Cockburn is writing about the possibility that allegations of election interference are a form of threat inflation. Do you not get that from the article? It states, "...we couldn’t stop their threat-inflating, and their nonworking weapons continued to be produced in huge quantities. Of course," he added with a laugh, “the art of creating threats has advanced tremendously since that primitive era." Sprey was referring to the current belief that the Russians had hacked into the communications of the Democratic National Committee... Or is it that you personally disagree with Sprey and Cockburn, and do not want their view in the article? -Darouet (talk) 20:44, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
Indeed, Cockburn's article deals with the alleged Russian hacking directly, and ties Sprey's remarks direclty to that issue. I'll just repeat what I've written above: not every editor will agree with every opinion cited in the article, or find every opinion plausible, but the metric we should go by is notability of the opinions. Sprey does have expertise in intelligence matters, and Cockburn is a well known political commentator in America, writing in a prestigious magazine. -Thucydides411 (talk)
My friend, it has been explained by several editors on various occasions that "notability" is not the test as to whether article content is appropriate. SPECIFICO talk 21:10, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Yes, I was speaking a bit loosely. I didn't mean that WP:NOTE applies to sources, but I read WP:DUE and WP:BALASP as requiring some sort of notability of the commentary. My point is that whether or not particular editors agree with the arguments the commentators make is not the metric we use to determine whether those commentaries should be included in the article. I'm not going to argue against Space4Time3Continuum2x's opinion of Pierre Sprey's commentary, because that's not the point. The point is that he was quoted by Alexander Cockburn in Harper's. -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:33, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
I for one don't care whether Sprey's opinion is included or not, but I'm getting really tired of reading your relentless opposition to include anything you personally disagree with. As a veteran Wikipedian, your fellow editors expect a tad more neutrality from you, less badgering and fewer aspersions. — JFG 21:28, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
Your personal attacks have got to stop. Now. That stuff is WP:UNDUE. Stuff can be verified, published in RS and be undue for an article on a specific topic. Please comment on content not contributors. SPECIFICO talk 21:43, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
I am criticizing your comments, not your person. And you have made plenty of personal attacks before receiving the slightest admonition, so please don't go there. — JFG 22:27, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
I advised you to "comment on content". SPECIFICO talk 22:53, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Agree that Sprey is undue. Not cleat on what the fact he said something to Cockburn has to do with it - the text isn't about Cockburn so that's completely beside the point.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:40, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

  • @Space4Time3Continuum2x: They exaggerated the size of Russia’s guns back then, so they’re lying about Russia's interference now? Sheesh. Yeah, we will definitely delete the judgement of a former defence analyst, cited in Harpers by a prominent journalist and author of "Kill Chain: Drones and the Rise of High-Tech Assassins", "Rumsfeld: His Rise, Fall, and Catastrophic Legacy" and " Out of the Ashes: The Resurrection of Saddam Hussein", now that a wikipedia editor has dismissed it with a devastating "sheesh". The intel community also "exaggerated" (i.e. made up) the size of Iraq's WMDs, fueling a war of aggression which killed many thousands of US troops and many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. "Sheesh" indeed. Guccisamsclub (talk) 12:20, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
  • I have to correct myself: Sprey left the Pentagon in 1970, before there even was an Internet! He was a weapons system analyst on the staff of the Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Systems Analysis) (OASD/SA), obviously an equally effective way to avoid getting drafted as heel spurs. Gives a whole new meaning to the "primitive era" quote in the Harper's article. Summing up: He was never a member of the intelligence community, he's not an expert on cyber-anything, and the Harper's article is off-topic. I don't believe there's any Misplaced Pages rule that protects long-standing content from removal for good reason. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 18:51, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Hey, Sprey did nothing bad to you besides being in the article. Now he's even being libelled as draft dodger. The kitchen sink... But ok, I admire the tenacity: if he not former intel, then whatever the merit of the source, it can be removed from the section. 20:04, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
"the Harper's article is off-topic". The Harper's article says, "Sprey was referring to the current belief that the Russians had hacked into the communications of the Democratic National Committee, election-related computer systems in Arizona and Illinois, and the private emails of influential individuals, notably Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta — and then malignly leaked the contents onto the internet." That's clearly the topic of 2016 United States election interference by Russia. The Harper's article also explains that Sprey was an analyst in the Defense Department, and he's quoted in the article talking about estimates of Soviet military strength. He was clearly involved in the "intelligence community," and in the Harper's article, he's applying his experience there to the Russian hacking allegations. -Thucydides411 (talk) 20:51, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
The United States Intelligence Community has a technical meaning: if you are not a employed by any of the member agencies, you are probably not a member of the "community". Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, either in my definition of "member", or in my assumption about Sprey's employment. Sprey is obviously remains relevant to the article, but he simply can't be labeled something he is not. Guccisamsclub (talk) 21:16, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Member: I agree. Relevance: Disagree. Sprey was involved in infighting at the Pentagon during the Vietnam era over which fighter plane to buy; his faction lost, and he seems to have continued shadow-fighting ever since then. How is this relevant to who's behind the hacking/publication, expecially since he was mentioned in only one article in one publication? He's in a business where any publicity is good publicity, and he’s probably on a few journalists "always good for an amusing quote" list. Thucydides shouldn't have restored the contentious material to the article as long as there is a discussion going on, but because of 1RR I can't remove it at the moment. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 07:40, 15 February 2017 (UTC)Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 16:09, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
The comment on threat inflation is relevant, and a pretty mainstream opinion. A former defence analyst is perfectly capable of assessing whether threat inflation is going on. No degree in cyber-security is necessary in this case; an understanding of politics and government bureaucracy is what's needed, and Sprey probably is qualified enough in that regard. Guccisamsclub (talk) 16:59, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
It's cherry-picked. Find an unimpeachable reference if you think this is an important point that relates to the subject of this article -- which is questionable, btw. And BLP is clear wrt smear. SPECIFICO talk 17:13, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
I doubt that's possible. Guccisamsclub (talk) 19:42, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Impossible to find a valid reference? Then it's prima facie UNDUE. SPECIFICO talk 21:24, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
We're not trying to "impeach" the people cited by various commentators here. A well known commentator on American politics, writing in Harper's, cited a former defense department analyst on something that analyst has experience with: "threat inflation." But I do agree with Guccisamsclub that if the Office of Systems Analysis at the Pentagon was not formally part of the "intelligence community," then we can move this opinion to a better subheading. -Thucydides411 (talk) 22:11, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Please refer to a dictionary for the meaning of unimpeachible, which I clearly used to refer to the "reference" and not to any person. I am quite surprised if you did not understand that. Please have another look at the dialogue above. SPECIFICO talk 23:02, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Hang on, is it Pierre Sprey you have a problem with, or is it Harper's? Harper's is the magazine, Pierre Sprey is the guy they cited. From the above thread, it looks like you're arguing that Sprey is somehow unfit to be cited. But Alexander Cockburn, writing in Harper's, considered Pierre Sprey's opinion on "threat inflation" informative and relevant to the alleged Russian hacking. -Thucydides411 (talk) 16:59, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
Just cuz someone published it don't mean it belongs in this WP article. @Volunteer Marek: has already explained this principle with pithy pointed precision elsewhere on this page. SPECIFICO talk 17:32, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with Sprey, Cockburn, or Harper's. Since we have consensus that Sprey is not a former member of the Intelligence Committee, I've removed the sentence from the section. If you can come up with a suitable section/subheading, we can continue the discussion there. The Belfer Center's Russia Analytical Report, Nov. 15-21, 2016, summarizes Cockburn's article under the heading "New Cold War/saber rattling". The only mention of the hacking/interference/whatever is this: "Cockburn ... begins by shedding some doubt on allegations that Russia was behind the infamous hacks of the U.S. presidential campaign." And that's all it is: A "currently in the news" intro to a long article about an alleged new cold war. The summary mentions two interviewees by name and does not mention Sprey (or Binney/McGovern, for that matter) at all, i.e., not important enough to mention as "significant commentary". Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 08:32, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Trump Campaign Aides Had Repeated Contacts With Russian Intelligence

This is an important story. Trump's campaign contacts with Russia need to be added. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/us/politics/russia-intelligence-communications-trump.html?smid=tw-nytpolitics&smtyp=cur&_r=0&referer=

Let's wait until the transcripts are released in the next week or so. I don't believe that this communication is publicly reported to be about the Russian interference yet. SPECIFICO talk 05:20, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
I think it is worth mentioning. If we were to wait until something was proven before writing about it, this article would not exist. a link to the story in CNN. TFD (talk) 04:50, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
I wonder when Wikipedians will stop reacting to the news du jour as if the integrity of the project depended on up-to-the-minute insertion of whatever hits the news cycle. Contrary to the press, there is no deadline, we don't have pressure to sell paper, views or clicks and we don't need to rabidly reprint every controversial or sensationalist thing floating around the media (look: Melania did some racy pictures 15 years ago! and she's suing for libel!! and she intended to use her notoriety for personal profit!!! Oh the humanity!!!!) But fine. At least if you're going to include this, please add Trump's denial at his press conference yesterday. — JFG 10:48, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
Your POV is that this is like Melania wearing this or that kind of suit... ??? It was reported in RS almost a month ago. I see that @Capsrings: has added it to the article, and I advise you to articulate a well-considered, policy-based justification if you choose to revert it. SPECIFICO talk 18:35, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Russia ties of Trump campaign staff and advisors

  • Trump campaign manager Manafort - consultant to Russian-backed, former Ukrainian president Yanukovitch
  • Trump advisor Page - Gazprom and other investments in Russia/Russian energy sector
  • Flynn - on December 10, 2015, Flynn gave a paid interview to RT at RT 10-yr. anniversary gala attended by Putin.

As for Trump himself, I’m pretty sure everyone has watched him (if not, see here and here) request Russia to release 30,000 missing emails , hacked not from the DNC server but from Clinton's private email server during her tenure as Secretary of State (which, to everyone's best knowledge, wasn't hacked). Of course he was just kidding, the ole gadfly, or was he? Trump has ties to Russia/Russian financing going back years. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 14:19, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Public opinion polling

I see this as trivia and have removed it from the article. First, although potentially verifiable public opinion data could be located for pretty much anything, Misplaced Pages articles as a rule do not cover public opinion polls. Including it in this article goes against the normal practice. Of course if "public opinion" as represented by those specific polls, and that specific interval time interval, were of permanent importance to the subject matter--as represented by widespread, non-routine coverage in secondary sources--then that would be different. There is no evidence of this, and the burden of proof is on those wanting inclusion. Geogene (talk) 01:26, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Absolutely correct. We must have the presence of mind and perspective to recognize what is/isn't encyclopedic. This is related to the problem with all the self-styled cybersecurity pundits who are eager to get their names in print and fill a void when more qualified notable experts have nothing to say. The facts have developed so rapidly that most of the media and former security workers' opinions and reaction in the article are of no lasting importance whatsoever. The reader would have no idea what facts were known and published as of the dates of past polls or punditry. SPECIFICO talk 01:54, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
I know of no rule regarding opinion polls. What goes into articles and what is omitted is determined by the weight of coverage in reliable sources. In this case the source used is the Wall Street Journal, which is a highly respected mainstream newspaper. Since the article is about allegations rather than proven facts, the degree to which the American public believes it is important. It is even important in cases of proven facts (climate change, evolution, 9/11), where substantial numbers of the population do not accept the facts. We include that information not to question the facts but because they are part of the story. If you are thinking of becoming a climate change scientist for example you might want to know that the general public may have doubts about its authenticity. TFD (talk) 04:21, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
I am thinking of becoming a Russian hacker. Will my cousins believe me when I tell tales over Thanksgiving turkey? Shucks. I think that the core issue is whether RS provide any narrative about these polls in relation to the topic of the article. For example, it may turn out six months from now that WP would source text to an RS that tracks increasing public acknowledgement that the Russian interference is a fact to future Republican political events. But in terms of the interference itself, what is the meaning of isolated polls without some correlation to the news background, the known facts as of each poll, or to how public opinion shaped some related events or outcomes? SPECIFICO talk 04:33, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
You would not be wasting your time on this article if everyone in the U.S. believed that the Russians hacked into the DNC and Podesta's emails and provided them to Wikileaks. TFD (talk) 04:45, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
Here's a diff that points to the content in question . Most sources in question are primary. The Wall Street Journal is primary, not secondary, in this context because they commissioned the poll and are merely reporting their own numbers. Since it's primary, it doesn't establish weight convincingly by itself, because it seems likely (to me at least) that the WSJ would have published those results whether the results were surprising or not; after all, they paid for them. I agree with SPECIFICO above about encyclopedic content: the Weight and Neutrality policies are written with the understanding that there are some fundamental differences in newspaper vs. encyclopedic content, we don't usually publish weather forecasts for example, although there is no rule against that either and plenty of usable sources. The reason: it's just data out of context with minimal useful shelf life. That's exactly the way I see these polls. But if I'm wrong on this, that content should include sourced analysis so readers can see why these numbers from that point in time are permanently useful. That way we aren't just flinging old data at them. Geogene (talk) 05:05, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
That's a misunderstanding of what "primary source" means. The WSJ is a secondary source, for our purposes. The problem with using primary sources is mainly that they require us to do original research to interpret. It would be wrong for us to look at the polling data and come to our own conclusions, but citing what the WSJ reported about the poll would be fine. -Thucydides411 (talk) 07:14, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
I agree with that. There is no difference between the WSJ running an article on their own poll or another company's poll, they both provide analysis. TFD (talk) 13:10, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
You may both want to read WP:PRIMARY and its explanatory supplement which includes WP:NEWSPRIMARY. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:09, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
"Primary sources are original materials that are close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved." That describes the poll. "A secondary source provides an author's own thinking based on primary sources, generally at least one step removed from an event. It contains an author's analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources. Secondary sources are not necessarily independent or third-party sources." That describes the article about the poll. TFD (talk) 21:15, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
@Geogene: You counter-reverted my restoration of longstanding text removed by SPECIFICO; technically this constitutes a violation of DS restrictions in force which state: You must not reinstate any challenged (via reversion) edits without obtaining consensus on the talk page of this article. Note that it says "challenged edits", not "challenged text", and my revert was a challenge to the deletion edit. I suggest that you self-revert to restore the disputed material pending consensus outcome of this discussion. I do commend you for opening said discussion. — JFG 10:06, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
It was not "longstanding" content. That fish don't dance. SPECIFICO talk 17:41, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 17 February 2017

The request to rename this article to Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections has been carried out.
If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag.

2016 United States election interference by Russia → Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections –

1. The original move request was closed as "Not moved. There is no consensus for this move, and there are several editors who expressed concern that both names violate WP:NPOV." The important element here is the no consensus. The vote for was 13 and the vote against was 11. As discussed in the move review, the opposing votes did not advance any arguments why the proposed name is worse than the current name. This is why I want to revisit this discussion.

2. Given that the title that many who opposed this move also could not gain consensus for a move they favored, with a vote of 17 to 24, I wish to return to this discussion. I believe a move request should weigh the two options against itself. I do not believe that one should oppose this by saying simply that both are Misplaced Pages:NPOVTITLE. One should make a logical argument why the proposed title would increase the problems with the title.

3. With that, I still believe the original rationale for the move are sound. Namely, the title conforms to the five criteria of WP:TITLE more than any other proposal that I've seen. It lacks ambiguity, reflects the coverage in reliable sources, and is is written in a such that a reader could easily find it via search and have an immediate understanding of what the article is about.

4. I last attempted to have this discussion here. The discussion was closed quickly and I was told to wait 30 days and try again. In that time, another attempt was made to move the page to Alleged 2016 United States election interference by Russia. That again failed to gain consensus. With that move again failing to get consensus, I think the rationale for this move is stronger. I understand editors who believe that the current title and the proposed title of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections are both WP:POVTITLE. However, if they are both POV, they are equal in that offense. If they are both WP:POVTITLE, the two suggestions should be compared based on other attributes. In that case, the proposed title is still better in that it lacks ambiguity, reflects the coverage, and is written in a way that the reader can easily find the article. Casprings (talk) 04:15, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

  • Close and block serial nominator Last time the user nominated this (immediately after a move review), I suggested a moratorium of two months- not only has it not been that, but the last RM (proposed by another editor) was closed less than one week ago. This article can't be at RM every day for as long as Misplaced Pages is online, and we need to take firmer action against this constant disruption. Ribbet32 (talk) 05:59, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Too bad because I wanted to discuss how it's a grammatically-awkward title to which Russian interference is superior, and now I won't get to. (Wait, what?) El_C 08:22, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
Ribbet32 I proposed this one month ago. When I did so, the closer suggested that I wait one month. I did so. Also, I think the logic is sound as to why this proprosal makes sense. I would ask you to strike your comment.Casprings (talk) 11:10, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Sources to support linkage to Russia

The sources are clear and the linkages are similar. It is important to the article.

  1. Tom Hamburger, Rosalind S. Helderman and Michael Birnbaum (June 17, 2016), "Inside Trump's financial ties to Russia and his unusual flattery of Vladimir Putin", The Washington Post, retrieved December 14, 2016
  2. Nesbit, Jeff (August 15, 2016), "Donald Trump's Many, Many, Many, Many Ties to Russia", Time, retrieved December 14, 2016
  3. Michael Stott and Catherine Belton (October 16, 2016), "Trump's Russian connections", Financial Times, retrieved December 14, 2016
  4. Miller, James (November 7, 2016), "Trump and Russia", The Daily Beast, retrieved December 14, 2016
  5. Kirchick, James (April 27, 2016), "Donald Trump's Russia connections", Politico, retrieved December 14, 2016
  6. "Obama hits Trump over intel briefings, alleged Russia connections", Fox News, December 13, 2016, retrieved December 14, 2016
  7. Farkas, Evelyn (December 12, 2016), "Here's What America Needs to Know About Trump and Russia", Politico, retrieved December 14, 2016
  8. "Trump advisers with Russian ties", MSNBC, December 11, 2016, retrieved December 14, 2016
  9. Reich, Robert (December 13, 2016), "Robert Reich: Donald Trump's Treacherous Ties to Russia", Newsweek, retrieved December 14, 2016
  10. Rozsa, Matthew (November 4, 2016), "Presidential candidate Donald Trump's Russian ties are scaring NATO allies", Salon, retrieved December 14, 2016
  11. Wasserman, Harvey (December 12, 2016), "Electoral College Must Not Vote Until Possible Trump Ties to Russian Hacking are Fully Investigated", The Huffington Post, retrieved December 14, 2016
  12. Smith, Geoffrey (November 2, 2016), "Meet the Russian Bank with Ties to Donald Trump", Fortune, retrieved December 14, 2016
  13. Foer, Franklin (October 31, 2015), "Was a Trump Server Communicating With Russia?", Slate, retrieved December 14, 2016
  14. Rozsa, Matthew (November 1, 2016), "Donald Trump company's server was connected to Russian bank", Salon, retrieved December 14, 2016
  15. Scott Bixby and Ben Jacobs (November 1, 2016), "Trump campaign denies report of Trump Organization tie to Russian bank", The Guardian, retrieved December 14, 2016
  16. Mastroianni, Brian (November 1, 2016), "Was a Trump computer server connected to Russia?", CBS News, retrieved December 14, 2016
  17. Montini, EJ (November 10, 2016), "Russians admit Trump connection. Will Trump?", The Arizona Republic, retrieved December 14, 2016
  18. "Are there any Trump links to Putin?", BBC News, BBC, July 27, 2016, retrieved December 14, 2016
  19. Grimes, Roger A. (November 1, 2016), "Is it real? The Trump-Russia server connection", InfoWorld, retrieved December 14, 2016
  20. Benen, Steve (November 1, 2016), "Trump's Russia ties become the subject of multiple controversies", The Rachel Maddow Show, MSNBC, retrieved December 14, 2016
  21. Kim, Lucian (December 14, 2016), "Trump's Men In Moscow: Trump Disciples Suddenly Showing Up In Russia", National Public Radio, retrieved December 14, 2016
  22. Chance, Matthew (December 15, 2016), "Why are Trump loyalists showing up in Moscow?", CNN, retrieved December 15, 2016

19:53, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

This is extremely well sourced and covered for months. I would ask that User:Guccisamsclub revert this edit. The rationale given does not match the reality of the sourcing and the coverage. Casprings (talk) 20:08, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

What does any of this have to do with election interference? What are those "ties" exactly and how did they affect the election, according to these sources? Without a clear answer to this question, the material remains a bunch WP:COAT+WP:SYNTH smoke without fire. Since it involves a living person, it is also a vacuous BLP-smear. Guccisamsclub (talk)
No it is supportable by the sources, but I will wait for comment by other editors. Casprings (talk) 20:29, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
What is supportable by sources? Guccisamsclub (talk) 20:32, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
That this is important context for the reader (and covered by multiple WP:RS) and that this belongs in the background section. You can't use WP:SYCH, when WP:RS have made the connection multiple times and commented on in for context. Casprings (talk) 20:36, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
You have to be explicit about what that has to do with election interference, which is the topic of the article.
Also, that server crap is a conpiracy theory (promoted by HRC on twitter) that's been debunked and debunked and debunked. Guccisamsclub (talk) 20:39, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
And this was in the background section. Trump's connections to Russia are important background and commented on by multiple WP:RS. I do not believe the server was in the text previously. Casprings (talk) 20:43, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
It remains a distinct possibility that Trump has compromising ties to Russia, and even to Russian Intelligence, yet at the same time the Russian efforts to influence the election were taken on his behalf without there being any connection between them. I (preemptively) agree that it's extremely unlikely, but we live in a big world with lot's of people, so unlikely things happen quite frequently. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:16, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
It actually is likely that this is much ado about nothing. Russia liked Trump for several reasons: he was destabilizing, he was not Clinton, and said nice things about Putin. The Kremlin did not have to ask Trump for permission to hack the DNC or to praise Trump. Likewise Trump and his supporters did not have to meet with Russian spies to iron out the finer points of his delirious campaign rhetoric. Direct collaboration between these two parties would have seriously compromised both of them (resulting in imprisonment, retaliation etc.) and would have accomplished nothing palpable. This would have been the dumbest and most masochistic conspiracy ever devised. Reality is much more prosaic: Trump liked Putin because the latter was a strong leader who was bombing uppity Muslims and "upholding traditional Christian values" (popular ideas with Trump's base). Putin liked Trump for reasons already described, though it this love is already wilting. (IMHO all these vague "links", "ties" and "associations" would be at home on Glenn Beck's chalkboard—which is as American as apple pie). Guccisamsclub (talk) 21:48, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
If the Russians decided to support Trump because of or as a result of (note the dichotomy there) his connections to Russia, (which is highly likely but again, not certain) but kept Trump in the dark about this support, they would still be related. The (slim) possibility I pointed out was the chance that one branch of Russian Intelligence said "We like this Trump candidate, let's propose we interfere to help him win," without being aware of Trumps existing ties to Russia, or even another branch of Russian Intelligence, then they would not be related. That I find to be highly unlikely, but it's certainly possible. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:26, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
The (slim) possibility I pointed out was the chance that one branch of Russian Intelligence said "We like this Trump candidate, let's propose we interfere to help him win," without being aware of Trumps existing ties to Russia, or even another branch of Russian Intelligence, then they would not be related. They were certainly aware of the "links" (which seem mostly innocuous—I have "links" to Russia as well), but those "links" aren't really needed to explain their support for Trump—in fact they don't explain much of anything. Clinton had "dealings" with Russia too. That's my point. Also note the vacuousness of the language that was used to justify the edit: "links", "ties", "associations", "backround", "multiple sources". Those words don't explain anything. An "explanation" would be something along the lines of what I wrote earlier. Naturally, people are free to challenge my "theory", but we need to work with explanations rather than associations. Guccisamsclub (talk) 23:06, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
See "Synthesis": "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." In this case it is implied synthesis, that you think there is a connection between his Russian ties and the alleged interference in the election. James Kirchick's article was published 27 April 2016 before any of the allegations had been made. Also, since the interference is an allegation, not a fact, you cannot just say this is the background but say that writers have identified this background as relevant to the story. TFD (talk) 21:09, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
At a more basic level: Relevant how? At this point it's little more than hand waving (But but Russia? But but emails? --OK, what about them?). Guccisamsclub (talk) 21:54, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
To be fair, if the writers say it's background but don't justify it, so long as we use source voice to say it's background, we're covered. But again, I don't think "some writers said this makes good background info on this story" is sufficient justification to include it here. The articles Donald Trump, Russia, USSR, FSB, Hacking and countless others are good background info on this story, but we're sure as hell not transcribing them all here. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:26, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
I wholeheartedly agree. However, if Casprings could provide an explanation (preferably one that RS agree upon) as to why the Kremlin appeared to welcome Trump and vice versa, we could include that. I have a feeling the explanation is pretty banal: they agreed on some issues. Guccisamsclub (talk) 23:16, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Didn't I read somewhere as how Mr. Trump used a public address to call upon Vladimir Putin to hack Sec'y Clinton or the Democrats' emails? That would seem to close the triangle. SPECIFICO talk 23:24, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, Trump was sending a message to GRU via basic cable. That was campaign rhetoric/sarcasm.Guccisamsclub (talk) 23:28, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
That's your OR. RS do not share your "opinion" Sensitive messages are often embedded in public speech, which is a mode of communication that could be colored not to violate the Logan Act. Here:s some discussion with WP:RS citations:
In July 2016, U.S. Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack accused Donald Trump of encouraging the Russian government to hack the email of Hillary Clinton, Trump's opponent in the 2016 Presidential Election. Several other Democratic Senators claimed Trump's comments appeared to violate the Logan Act. Laurence Tribe, a professor of constitutional law at Harvard Law School, also commented on the incident saying, "Trump's "jokes" inviting an adversary to wage cyberwar against the U.S. appear to violate the Logan Act and might even constitute treason."
  1. Lesniewski, Niels (2016-07-28). "Reid Says Trump Should Get Fake Intel Briefings". United States: Roll Call. Retrieved 2017-02-12.
  2. Noble, Jason (2016-07-28). "Trump's Russia comments could be a felony, Vilsack charges". The Des Moines Register. Retrieved 2017-02-12.
  3. Kelly, Caroline (2016-07-28). "Former Obama mentor: Trump's Russian hack 'jokes' could 'constitute treason'". Politico. Retrieved 2017-02-12.

SPECIFICO talk 23:58, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Devastating. Add this content to the article immediately. Guccisamsclub (talk) 00:28, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
Just cause your POV was refuted, nobody considers you "devastated" I take it you agree to inclusion. SPECIFICO talk 00:40, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
The stuff you just cited purports to show how Trump and Russia were actively colluding. Clearly, it is relevant to the article: straightforward and to point. As I've already said, I have no problem with your proposed content—ADD IT RIGHT NOW. What I am emphatically against is including a section on Trump's "ties" without any explanation of what they mean or what impact they've had on the election. Is that clear enough? Guccisamsclub (talk) 01:14, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
Ditto what Gucci said, only I want to change "-ADD IT RIGHT NOW." to "-ADD IT! ADD IT NOW!"
And to be clear, it should be read in a distinctive Austrian accent. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 01:35, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
Gucci, please review the sources. And do your own adding. SPECIFICO talk 01:39, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
Done! Guccisamsclub (talk) 01:48, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
  • The connections between D. Trump team and Russian government were widely published and highly relevant for this page. How much of this background information should be provided is debatable, but something must be said about it from the very beginning of the section. And let's respect 1RR rule on the page. My very best wishes (talk) 17:48, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

POV pushing

@JFG: Your edits of a few hours ago suggest that you are.

  1. Cybersecurity analysis. "Consequently" is editor’s POV, and I’m pretty sure that you are familiar with the Commentary and reactions section, subsection Hillary Clinton.
  2. Cybersecurity analysis. Your edit: "Some dissenting security experts questioned the connection between the hacks and the leaks, stating that a "sloppy" email leak would not match the sophistication of Russian spy agencies." One cherry-picked, slightly rewritten sentence from the article (date July 26, 2016, not exactly breaking news). The original reads: "But other security experts say that a sloppy email leak, filled with evidence of Russian involvement, would be uncharacteristic for the country’s sophisticated spy agencies." Editorializing aside: Also flawed reasoning - I may have the most highly sophisticated spying tools in the world, but if a simple proven method like spearphishing is successful, I’d go with it. And if I was a twenty-something getting paid to do what I love to do, i.e., hacking and trolling, why wouldn’t I figuratively thumb my nose at my victims by using the Cheka guys name (nyah nyah - catch me, if you can) where it will be seen?
  3. I haven’t figured out yet what your "consolidation of duplicate sources and keeping of those most relevant to text" involved. Why are the ones you removed less relevant to the topic? You added the two overcites at 02:00, 2 February 2017, waited a couple of weeks and then "cleaned up". Please, self-revert the edit and discuss first. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk • contribs)
Hi Space4Time3Continuum2x, I'm happy to explain my edits. The section "Cybersecurity analysis" had suffered from overcite for several months, as I noted on February 2. Besides, it was hard to read, looking like extra citations had been thrown there without paying attention to what was already reported. Seeing that none of the original contributors stepped up to improve the status quo, I decided to tackle it. My approach was first to read every cited article and determine which of them were simply duplicating others. On that basis I removed a few cites that did not bring more information. Then I saw several cited sources which spoke about other stuff, and had to decide what to do with them:
  • an article mentioned Fancy Bear in relation with the Olympics doping scandal, so I added a sentence to summarize it, although it could be considered off-topic and removed;
  • an article talked about the Clinton campaign blaming Russia following the hacking reports, so I added that; I agree that there's already a section for this, so we don't need to repeat it here;
  • an article simply reported the Wikileaks of 20,000 DNC emails; I removed it as this issue was already mentioned elsewhere on the page;
  • an article presented several opinions of security experts, both supporting and questioning the connection between Wikileaks and Russian intelligence, so I added the contra opinion for balance (that's the reason for part of my edit summary "add counter-opinions already cited in sources");
  • an article speculated about potential hacking of future German elections; I removed it as off-topic and crystalline;
  • an article talked about DCLeaks and hacks of NATO General Breedlove and Soros' foundations but there was no text, so I added some; this could be considered off-topic and removed.
After sorting through the sources as explained, I formatted the remaining citations properly, performed some general copyediting and re-ordered things chronologically; I also grouped the pro and contra arguments to reduce confusion about who said what. Note that I inserted or preserved text on both sides of the "it's the Russians" debate, so I deny pushing a POV here; I'm just trying to make the article clearer for readers. — JFG 06:53, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

For those interested in a moratorium

Please see this discussion at AN regarding a possible moratorium on page moves for this page. Thank you. SkyWarrior 21:21, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Detritus

There's still a ton of UNDUE, out of context, poorly sourced and cherry-picked text in this article. I just removed and fixed some of it. Others are encouraged to do the same. This is an example of why "longstanding content" should only be applied to content where explicit consensus or extensive discussion was evident on Talk. SPECIFICO talk 22:46, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

SPECIFICO also lack of independent reliable (secondary) sourcing is what it is. Marginal opinions and commentary that is actually at the point of obscurity, do to lack of RS, really should not be in this article. We are supposed edit in agreement with content policies. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 03:09, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
Also, there have been several instances wherein secondary details, that were only incidental to the RS' topics or views, were helicoptered out and placed in a different context as if to support a narrative not contained within the source. I've just fixed one of those regarding the statements in an Ars Technica article. SPECIFICO talk 03:17, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Michael T. Flynn

Without commenting on what content or how much weight to be added, I'm pretty baffled that this article has 0 mentions about Michael T. Flynn. I feel like his resignation being indirectly connected to this should be mentioned at least somewhere. Regards, — Moe Epsilon 00:41, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

I have not seen RS that links Flynn's inappropriate contact with the Russians specifically to the Russian hacking or attempts to promote Trump's chances in the election. SPECIFICO talk 00:45, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
It's not so much that, than interference by the Russians resulted in the conversation that Flynn had with the Russians. He contacted them the same day the Obama administration said there would be retaliatory measures for the interference. I just think Flynn's contact and resignation afterwards could be mentioned here since it seems to be a direct result. Regards, — Moe Epsilon 02:57, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps the most constructive way to approach this would be for you to propose specific article text and source citations. You may have found useful material that others have not seen. SPECIFICO talk 03:19, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
Any source you provide must make the connection. TFD (talk) 03:31, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
It's what I gather, in the section about Flynn's downfall from his position. Here is an article I found about his contact with Kislyak (it should be pretty easy to find others):
Dec. 29: Flynn places five phone calls to Kislyak. These calls were apparently on unsecured lines, and monitored by U.S. intelligence agencies. On the same day, Obama announces measures meant to punish Russia for its interference in the 2016 election.
It is this contact that resulted in the investigation for inappropriately having communications with the Russians (Kislyak) and resulted in his resignation. I would imagine the text added to the article be something along the lines of (under #Sanctions_imposed_on_Russia) Flynn had made contact with Kislyak on Dec. 29 on the day Obama announced sanctions against Russia, which after an investigation, later resulted in his resignation as National Security Advisor. Regards, — Moe Epsilon 05:08, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
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