Misplaced Pages

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• WP:CR
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Use the closure requests noticeboard to ask an uninvolved editor to assess, summarize, and formally close a Misplaced Pages discussion. Do so when consensus appears unclear, it is a contentious issue, or where there are wiki-wide implications (e.g. any change to our policies or guidelines).

Do not list discussions where consensus is clear. If you feel the need to close them, do it yourself.

Move on – do not wait for someone to state the obvious. In some cases, it is appropriate to close a discussion with a clear outcome early to save our time.

Do not post here to rush the closure. Also, only do so when the discussion has stabilised.

On the other hand, if the discussion has much activity and the outcome isn't very obvious, you should let it play out by itself. We want issues to be discussed well. Do not continue the discussion here.

There is no fixed length for a formal request for comment (RfC). Typically 7 days is a minimum, and after 30 days the discussion is ripe for closure. The best way to tell is when there is little or no activity in the discussion, or further activity is unlikely to change its result.

When the discussion is ready to be closed and the outcome is not obvious, you can submit a brief and neutrally worded request for closure.

Include a link to the discussion itself and the {{Initiated}} template at the beginning of the request. A helper script can make listing easier. Move discussions go in the 'other types' section.

Any uninvolved editor may close most discussions, so long as they are prepared to discuss and justify their closing rationale.

Closing discussions carries responsibility, doubly so if the area is contentious. You should be familiar with all policies and guidelines that could apply to the given discussion (consult your draft closure at the discussions for discussion page if unsure). Be prepared to fully answer questions about the closure or the underlying policies, and to provide advice about where to discuss any remaining concerns that editors may have.

Non-admins can close most discussions. Admins may not overturn your non-admin closures just because you are not an admin, and this is not normally in itself a problem at reviews. Still, there are caveats. You may not close discussions as an unregistered user, or where implementing the closure would need tools or edit permissions you do not have access to. Articles for deletion and move discussion processes have more rules for non-admins to follow.

If you want to formally challenge and appeal the closure, do not start the discussion here. Instead follow advice at WP:CLOSECHALLENGE.

Other areas tracking old discussions

• Misplaced Pages:Requested moves#Elapsed listings
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Old
• Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion
• Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Awaiting closure
• Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion#Old discussions
• Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion#Old business
• Misplaced Pages:Proposed mergers/Log
• Misplaced Pages:Proposed article splits

Administrative discussions

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 26 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request

(Initiated 24 days ago on 15 December 2024) voorts (talk/contributions) 00:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new administrative discussions above this line using a level 3 heading

Requests for comment

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 92 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 72 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide#RfC: History section, adding native American and Australian genocides as examples

(Initiated 62 days ago on 6 November 2024) RfC expired on 6 December 2024 . No new comments in over a week. Bogazicili (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Team Seas#Re: the ocean pollution additions

(Initiated 54 days ago on 15 November 2024) Clear consensus that the proposed edit (and its amended version) violate WP:SYNTH. However, the owning editor is engaging in sealioning behavior, repeatedly arguing against the consensus and dismissing others' rationale as not fitting his personal definition of synthesis; and is persistently assuming bad-faith, including opening an ANI accusing another editor of WP:STONEWALLING. When finally challenged to give a direct quote from the source that supports the proposed edit, it was dismissed with "I provided the source, read it yourself" and then further accused that editor with bad-faith. The discussion is being driven into a ground by an editor who does not (nor wish to) understand consensus and can't be satisfied with any opposing argument supported by Misplaced Pages policy or guidelines. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 22:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel#RfC

(Initiated 46 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Ongoing discussion, please wait a week or two. Bogazicili (talk) 14:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Nikolai_Rimsky-Korsakov#RFC_on_Infobox_for_Nikolai_Rimsky-Korsakov

(Initiated 37 days ago on 2 December 2024) The last comment on this was on 24 December 2024 and Legobot has removed the RFC tag. An independent closer (preferably an admin) would be welcome. Many thanks - SchroCat (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Done Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

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Deletion discussions

Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion/2024 November 27#File:The Musician (Erling Blöndal Bengtsson) by Ólöf Pálsdóttir.jpg

(Initiated 41 days ago on 27 November 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

•  Done Stifle (talk) 11:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 20#Category:Belarusian saints

(Initiated 19 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

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Other types of closing requests

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 105 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump

(Initiated 84 days ago on 16 October 2024) Experienced closer requested. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 71 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel–Hamas war#Survey

(Initiated 62 days ago on 7 November 2024) Looking for uninvolved close in CTOP please, only a few !votes in past month. I realise this doesn't require closing, but it is preferred in such case due to controversial nature of topic. CNC (talk) 10:44, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Note: I'm happy to perform the merge if required, as have summarised other sections of this article already with consensus. I realise it's usually expected to perform splits or merges when closing discussions, but in this case it wouldn't be needed. CNC (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Shiv Sena#Merge proposal

(Initiated 42 days ago on 27 November 2024) Discussion seems to have stopped. As the proposal is not uncontroversial, and I, as the initiator, am involved, I am requesting an uninvolved editor to close the discussion. Arnav Bhate (talk • contribs) 11:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning other types of closing requests above this line using a level 3 heading

Pages recently put under extended-confirmed protection

Review of an improper RfC closure

An RfC at Misplaced Pages talk:Copyrights#RfC: Hosting content from countries that do not have copyright relations with the U.S. was initially closed by an involved editor without discussing the arguments made in the discussion. I left a comment on the closer's talk page explaining that WP policies require that only an uninvolved editor can close the discussion and that, when closing, a summary of the consensus needs to be given. I then boldly undid the close given the clear violation of policy, but that was later undone by another editor who didn't vote in the RfC, but had left comments expressing a view on the subject and was also the editor who had nominated an image for deletion (see notifications on my talk page for speedy delete nomination, then file for discussion) that led to the RfC. That discussion between me and the second closer was at File talk:Isfahan Metro.jpg, which has since been deleted, but can't admins view the old content of the page? I tried to address the problems with the closure on the talk pages of both editors, but neither was willing to address them (see , , ).

In addition to the issues with the closure by the involved editors, the closure was not made correctly for several reasons. The consensus is not strictly determined by the number of votes. Per WP:RFCEND: The outcome is determined by weighing the merits of the arguments and assessing if they are consistent with Misplaced Pages policies. Counting "votes" is not an appropriate method of determining outcome. Per Misplaced Pages:Consensus#Determining consensus: "Consensus is ascertained by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Misplaced Pages policy." When closing, a summary of the arguments should be given (see Misplaced Pages:Closing discussions#Consensus) and "arguments that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, and those that show no understanding of the matter of issue" should be discarded (Misplaced Pages:Closing discussions#Consensus).

First, most of the oppose votes raised the issue of the images possibly being subject to copyright in the future if the country of origin joins the Berne Convention, but did not respond to comments that templates could be made for those individual countries therefore allowing easy deletion of such images when a country joins the Berne Convention. Second, many raised the issue of the reusability of the content outside the US; however, as mentioned in the general discussion section, this is logically fallacious because 1) the images are free of copyright in most Berne Convention member states (currently 174 of the roughly 200 sovereign states) since copyright is based on reciprocity and countries like Iran and Somalia aren't party to significant other copyright treaties, 2) copyright exceptions (fair use & fair dealing) vary considerably from country to country and so Misplaced Pages articles containing fair use images already can't be freely reused in the many countries that don't have liberal copyright exceptions like the U.S. fair use, and 3) such a policy is inconsistent with other policies on WP, like allowing images of architecture that is not copyrighted in the US because of a freedom of panorama exception (which many countries' copyright laws don't have) or allowing works that are copyrighted in the country of origin but not the US (eg. some countries' copyright length is life+100 years).

Finally, while the result of the closure is given as "no consensus" to host the images subject to the RfC, the policy for many years has been to consider such images on a case-by-case basis and so the way the closing summary is stated it nonetheless changes existing policy. If there is no consensus on the outcome of an RfC changing a policy, shouldn't the result be to keep the status quo? AHeneen (talk) 13:52, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

AHeneen, I have undeleted File talk:Isfahan Metro.jpg. Nyttend (talk) 14:11, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Bumping thread. Note: This shouldn't be closed until at least the last point is addressed: if result of RfC is no consensus, shouldn't status quo be kept? In this case, because of the wording of the question, the closing summary (by involved editors) changed the existing policy. AHeneen (talk) 19:26, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

I think you'll find that it's more complicated than that. When everything's simple and straightforward, then, yes, you're right: When there is no consensus, then the proposed change is usually not made (although see WP:NOCONSENSUS for some examples of when the default differs). But this does not appear to be a simple and straightforward situation. The closer may have found, for example, that there was no consensus for the old version and no consensus for the proposed change. "No consensus" means "no consensus against the proposal" just as much as it means "no consensus for the proposal". WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:22, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing The problem is 1) the closers were both involved editors and didn't really summarize the arguments made and 2) at the start of the RfC, the consensus was to accept such images on a case-by-case basis, but the question posed in the RfC was phrased in the positive ("Should the English Misplaced Pages host content that is public domain in the United States because the country of origin does not have copyright relations with the U.S.? "). The closing summary, in part, was "There is no consensus to host content from countries that do not have copyright relations with the U.S. " For the various reasons explained above, a lack of consensus should mean that the status quo be kept. AHeneen (talk) 03:34, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

I answered the general question that you asked: "if result of RfC is no consensus, shouldn't status quo be kept?" The answer to that question is "it depends". WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:55, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

OK. Sorry about the misunderstanding. AHeneen (talk) 08:38, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

This is now the oldest discussion on this page. The RfC closure really needs to be reviewed by an uninvolved editor. AHeneen (talk) 08:38, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

 Doing...—S Marshall T/C 18:08, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm going to disagree with this quite a lot. Firstly, the close was procedurally flawed because it was made by an editor who had participated in the discussion. Secondly, I don't agree that "No consensus" accurately reflects the discussion. I feel that the consensus was to reject the proposal on the basis that the copyright status of the content could change in future. Thirdly, ironically, I don't actually agree with the consensus on this point. It would be simple (and it would be standard Wikipedian practice) to create a template that says "PD-because-no-copyright-agreement-with-USA", tag the affected files with this template, and use the template to populate a category which tracks such files and enable their removal if the copyright status changes in the future. But with my RfC closer hat on I would have to say that illogical though it seems to me, there was a consensus and it was to reject the proposal.—S Marshall T/C 18:38, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

@S Marshall: Your third point is irrelevant and semantically speaking, "there is no consensus to host such content" and "there is consensus to reject the proposal" which was to host said content, is the same thing. As for the closer, Misplaced Pages really needs to get over the whole "involved" nonsense. As indicative of the ever growing list of requested closures, if the result is obvious there is absolutely nothing wrong with someone just doing it. That is what being bold is. In any case, the original closure's decision was in direct opposition to what they wanted anyways. I could see a problem if they ruled in favor of what they wanted but, come on. This nonsense has been going on for well over a month now. It is time to drop the stick and move on with our lives. --Majora (talk) 22:49, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

• Nope, neither of those points is correct. "No consensus to host" and "consensus not to host" are not equivalent, and the fact that the consensus doesn't make sense is not irrelevant.—S Marshall T/C 22:54, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

It is irrelevant in the vein that you did not participate so your opinion on the matter is moot. And in terms of English, those two ideas are equivalent. Whether or not Misplaced Pages views them as equivalent is different (and another layer of pointlessness that doesn't need to be there). --Majora (talk) 22:58, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

S Marshall: As mentioned in the OP, consensus is not merely tallying votes as per Misplaced Pages:Consensus#Determining consensus: "Consensus is ascertained by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Misplaced Pages policy." Here, there were many quality arguments given for allowing the images with specific copyright tags with no response by those opposing (so there wasnt't really any attempt at reasoned discussion or consensus building). There was also basically no discussion about the status quo that allowed such images on a case-by-case basis. The semantic issue about consensus is better explained this way: there was no agreement through reasoned discussion about how to proceed forward (keeping in mind the principles mentioned in the first sentnce of this comment). This is a problem because of the way the RfC was phrased (in the positive, even though such images were already allowed).

It may be easier to understand this argument in a different context. Let's say someone starts an RfC about repeated wikilinks in articles that says "Should articles be allowed to have more than one wikilink to the same article, excluding navigation boxes?" Since this is phrased in the positive, any result other than a clear yes would be a change to the current policy (WP:DUPLINK: Duplicate linking in lists is permissible if it significantly aids the reader.). If there is a lot of disagreement about the appropriate circumstances for when multiple links are appropriate, then using the result of the closure of the copuright RfC, the result of the RfC would be "there is no consensus to have more than one wikilink to the same article, excluding navigation boxes" and the status quo would be changed. AHeneen (talk) 23:13, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

WP:AN/CXT

Hi, Wikipedians. I wanted to give you an update on WP:AN/CXT. Since that discussion was closed about eight months or so ago, we've cleared out about 10% of the articles involved, which were the easiest 10%. The work is now slowing down as more careful examination is needed and as the number of editors drops off, and I'm sad to report that we're still finding BLP issues. The temporary speedy deletion criterion, X2, is of little use because it's phrased as a special case of WP:SNOW and I'm not being allowed to improve it. The "it's notable/AFD is not for cleanup" culture at AFD is making it hard for me to remove these articles as well, so I'm spending hours trying to get rid of material generated by a script in seconds. I'm sorry but I'm discouraged and I give up. Recommend the remainder are nuked to protect the encyclopaedia.—S Marshall T/C 23:15, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

For more context on this issue, please see Misplaced Pages talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#X2 revision. Cheers, Tazerdadog (talk) 23:33, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your work on this, S Marshall, and I don't fault you for your choice. - Dank (push to talk) 19:49, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

• Isn't there some way to use the sortware to delete all of these in bulk, if only as a one-time thing? Seems like a huge waste of time if it's being done manually by hand. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 00:07, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

• Easily doable as a batch-deletion. I could have it wrapped up in 15 minutes. Unfortunately community consensus did not lean towards approving that option. In fact, most CXT creations which have been reviewed needed cleanup but turned out to be acceptable articles. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 21:00, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

I would support a nuke, a mass draftification, or some loosening of X2. The current situation is not really tenable due to the density of BLP violations. However, ultimately, the broader community needs to discuss what the appropriate action is under the assumption that we are not going to get much more volunteer time to manually check these articles. Tazerdadog (talk) 23:54, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

• No, the broader community doesn't need to discuss that. It's completely needless and the community has had a huge discussion already. All that needs to happen is for WT:CSD to let me make one bold edit to a CSD that was badly-worded from the get-go, and we'll all be back on track. That's it. The only problem we have is that there are so many editors who want to tell me how to do it, and so few editors willing to get off their butts and do it.—S Marshall T/C 19:34, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

• Restored from archive, as it's unhelpful for this to remain unresolved.—S Marshall T/C 17:30, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Deleted page removal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi guys, I was just scrolling through the pages of one of my favorite TV shows, Alias, and I noticed that the following two entries for two of the show's characters have apparently been approved for deletion. https://en.wikipedia.org/Thomas_Grace_(Alias), https://en.wikipedia.org/Kelly_Peyton

I didn't know what to do so I thought I should let the administrators know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.56.3.107 (talk) 00:32, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

All PRODed articles are reviewed by an administrator before final deletion. The admins are currently about a day behind, which is actually pretty impressive as far as Misplaced Pages backlogs go. It will be reviewed when it is reviewed. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:36, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – March 2017

News and updates for administrators from the past month (February 2017).

Administrator changes

Amortias • Deckiller • BU Rob13

Ronnotel • Islander • Chamal N • Isomorphic • Keeper76 • Lord Voldemort • Shereth • Bdesham • Pjacobi

Guideline and policy news

• A recent RfC has redefined how articles on schools are evaluated at AfD. Specifically, secondary schools are not presumed to be notable simply because they exist.
• AfDs that receive little participation should now be closed like an expired proposed deletion, following a deletion process RfC.
• Defender, HakanIST, Matiia and Sjoerddebruin are our newest stewards, following the 2017 steward elections.
• The 2017 appointees for the Ombudsman commission are Góngora, Krd, Lankiveil, Richwales and Vogone. They will serve for approximately 1 year.

Technical news

• A recent query shows that only 16% of administrators on the English Misplaced Pages have enabled two-factor authentication. If you haven't already enabled it please consider doing so.
• Cookie blocks should be deployed to the English Misplaced Pages soon. This will extend the current autoblock system by setting a cookie for each block, which will then autoblock the user after they switch accounts under a new IP.
• A bot will now automatically place a protection template on protected pages when admins forget to do so.

• Discuss this newsletter
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• Archive

• I find it disappointing that so few admins have enabled 2FA. If you have a smart phone there is really no reason not to be using it, once it is set up it is incredibly easy to use. Beeblebrox (talk) 06:22, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Mom? Is that you? All right, all right, don't give me that look. I've done it. --NeilN 04:59, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Nothing about addressing long backlogs? There's 30-odd RfCs on here, along with AIV and SPI backlogs only a few posts above this one. If this newsletter was a physical object, it would be soft, strong and thoroughly absorbent. Lugnuts 08:48, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Lugnuts, I'll mention it to those writing it, but if you ever see/think of something that needs including, feel free to contribute! Primefac (talk) 15:59, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Huh? Are you making some connection between the newsletter and toilet paper, or tissues, or something like that? Nyttend (talk) 00:05, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

• If we really want admins/functionaries to start using 2FA, we could do like Google, FB and etc. and put up a splash screen on every login that says "to protect your account with advanced permission, please enable 2FA", of course with a small link "not now" because consensus doesn't yet support mandatory 2FA. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 15:47, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

  Note meta:Help:Two-factor authentication still has 2FA listed as "Two-factor authentication on Wikimedia is currently experimental and optional" - no requirements should force use of beta features. — xaosflux 16:39, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

  Since I don't have anything other than my laptop with Internet access, I would strongly oppose a requirement to use 2FA; I wouldn't be able to log in without using a publicly accessible computer, and that rather defeats the purpose. Nyttend (talk) 23:47, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

  2FA should be mandatory for users with access to private information (functionaries, stewards, ombudsmen, WMF staff). 2FA doesn't necessarily require a smartphone, there are things like physical dongles. In any case, functionaries and above should never log into a "publicly accessible computer" with anything but their alt account which lesser access. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 16:39, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

• "Cookie blocks" - will this require an explicit cookie warning to comply with the EU directive? Does wikipedia already have an explicit cookie warning and I just missed/forgotton it? (Keep in mind that the EU operates under the assumption that any US website that targets EU citizens data must comply with EU data regulations) Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:02, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

• Not sure if this is what you mean, but cookie usage is addressed in the "Privacy policy" and "Cookie statement" links at the bottom of every Misplaced Pages page. Nyttend (talk) 14:04, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

• That wouldnt suffice in any case, since it requires informed consent. But from reading up on it, I think the new one would be exempt anyway as its authentication-based. Only in death does duty end (talk) 00:28, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Re-requesting closure of Misplaced Pages talk:Conflict of interest#Investigating COI policy

Someone already requested a closure of Misplaced Pages talk:Conflict of interest#Investigating COI policy, which concerns outing/paid editor/harassment/COI... whatever. However, Casliber says that more than one closer, preferably three-person, may be needed. I wonder whether more than one closer is necessary. If so, this indicates that the discussion would be another one of more difficult discussions we've seen lately. Thoughts? --George Ho (talk) 13:44, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

It's not obvious from the discussion and the number of editors participating and the number of proposals made that it's a difficult and controversial topic? --NeilN 19:59, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

To me, closing the whole discussion is very difficult because of the controversy of the topic. However, I concentrated more on milieus and proposals. To be honest, I saw two milieus and one concrete proposal receiving support from the majority. I concentrated on the straw polls and arguments. How about this: close separate milieus and proposals separately? They aren't that difficult to separately close due to other milieus and proposals not likely to pass. --George Ho (talk) 20:17, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Closing each one separately probably makes more sense from a numbers perspective. However, it should still be one group of editors that does it, since there is the possibility (mentioned on the discussion) that some of the milieus could contradict each other depending on what gets passed. Primefac (talk) 01:57, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Milieus 1, 2, and 5 are easy to close as the majority opposes them individually. Milieu 3 and concrete proposal 1 received majority support, so those would be also easy to close. But you're right; one same group of editors should do the individual closures. However, I won't be part of the closing group, so I'll await the uninvolved closers then. --George Ho (talk) 04:44, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

I would be willing to be involved in a group closure on this. Tazerdadog (talk) 19:02, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

I guess this means we're putting the band back together ;) Primefac (talk) 19:04, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

We still need one more volunteer for this. Tazerdadog (talk) 10:01, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

I'll step up, if you like.—S Marshall T/C 17:34, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

New adminbot request - File revision deletion for orphaned fair-use versions

A new adminbot BRFA has been opened at Misplaced Pages:Bots/Requests for approval/RonBot and is open for community comments. Thank you, — xaosflux 04:14, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Artegon Marketplace

Could an admin please undelete all revisions of Artegon Marketplace / Festival Bay Mall? The article got hijacked by a promo team and turned into an ad that got deleted via G11. I would like the whole shebang undeleted so I can revert to an older draft and fix it up. Ten Pound Hammer • 19:29, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

 Done ping Primefac (talk) 20:48, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Daily Mail headsup

The Daily Mail has finally responded to the recent RFC that editors determined that the paper was generally not to be used for sourcing on WP.

I would link it, however, it outs the real-life identity of the RFC initiator, User:Hillbillyholiday (who since has retired), and mentions both User:Slatersteven and User:Guy Macon. However for sake of those looking for it, it was posted online on March 3 and written by Guy Adams.

It is very much an attack piece on Misplaced Pages, plus gets a number of facts wrong (claimed that we have 30 million "administrators" so that the 57 support !votes in the RFC represent a tiny tiny fraction of administrators). I don't know if this will cause any problems here (it doesn't quite invite people to maliciously edit WP in revenge, but there's an undertone of disrupting the establishment here). --MASEM (t) 13:47, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

the site’s 30 million total, plus five ‘administrators’ There we go ladies and gentlemen. If we needed any more evidence of The Daily Mail's unreliability, we now need only refer to their own unreliable story on their own unreliability. But to be fair, they're only off by a factor of 23,000. TimothyJosephWood 14:00, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

states:

Misplaced Pages’s decision to censor the Mail — the only major news outlet on the face of the Earth to be so censored — was supported by a mere 53 of its editors, or 0.00018 per cent of the site’s 30 million total, plus five ‘administrators’ .

The article on TSTMNBN does not say that Misplaced Pages has 30 million administrators, nor that Misplaced Pages had 5 administrators. I fear that misuse of a cite for a quote which is inaccurately depicted shows not show that the site is "unreliable" in its commentary. Further, I am uncertain that where any outside site has committed "outing", that such is a violation of Misplaced Pages policies which only apply to editors on Misplaced Pages. And, as I often note, "headlines" are written by "headline writers" and often do not agree with the content of articles. I find "headlines" from any newspaper or magazine anywhere to be "unreliable" ab initio. Collect (talk) 14:27, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

The 30 million refers to the number of people who have registered accounts over the years. The "five administrators" refers to the number of administrators participating in the RfC. Softlavender (talk) 14:28, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

If most of those 30 million actually edited, we'd have well more than 5 million articles. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 14:28, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

The ban was supported by just 0.00018 per cent of site’s ‘administrators’ From the headline. Which equals approximately 23% of an administrator. I can only assume that this means one of our admins is a head in a glass jar. TimothyJosephWood 14:32, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Okay, I mixed up the byline and the prose on that (but that's still sloppy reporting to have bylines exaggerate as such), and as noted, if we really had 30 M active editors.... And I wasn't 100% sure on the outing aspect, I'd rather be cautious. Regardless, my concern presently is less about the DM's reliability and more that the article is highly condemning of WP and has opinions and elements that we as administrators should be aware might lead to some malicious activity. --MASEM (t) 14:33, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

As far as I know, the question is the number of "named accounts" (registered users). Misplaced Pages:Authors_of_Wikipedia gives a value thereof as " The number of registered users with login names is 30,369,908 (roughly 30 million people), and there are a similar number of unregistered users" and "So the total number of individual people who edit Misplaced Pages is at most 56,000,000, but probably far smaller." The use of 30 million is therefore a pretty reasonable figure for TSTMNBN to use. Collect (talk) 14:35, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

You are pretty clearly trying to whitewash the fact that one of our admins is a dismembered head. TimothyJosephWood 14:39, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

It might be true, but again, "activity" is important here. It's like trying to justify minimial voter turnout in an election by using a list of all registered voters over time, including those that have long-been dead (even if Chicago elections seem to go that way :) . I know we track around 3000-4000 very active editors (>100 edits/month) so reasonably activity editors will be much larger but it isn't going to be a jump by many orders of magnitude. --MASEM (t) 14:42, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Masem, the article makes it clear that 30 million is decidedly not the number of active editors. Please re-read it; it says "Thirty million people have now registered as ‘editors’, of whom around 130,000 have been active in the past six months." -- Softlavender (talk) 14:43, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, they state that, but it's a little bit like stating the number of people who have ever voted in an election in the history of the US, and reporting Trump's popular vote as a percentage of that number, as if the statistic was somehow meaningful. TimothyJosephWood 14:45, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

The following wikimarkup...

<div>As of {{CURRENTDAYNAME}}, {{CURRENTDAY2}} {{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTYEAR}}, {{CURRENTTIME}} (UTC), The English Misplaced Pages has {{NUMBEROF|USERS|en|N}} registered users, {{NUMBEROF|ACTIVEUSERS|en|N}} active editors, and {{NUMBEROF|ADMINS|en|N}} administrators. Together we have made {{NUMBEROF|EDITS|en|N}} edits, created {{NUMBEROF|PAGES|en|N}} pages of all kinds and created {{NUMBEROF|ARTICLES|en|N}} articles.</div>

...Gives you the following result:

As of Wednesday, 08 January 2025, 18:56 (UTC), The English Misplaced Pages has 48,521,464 registered users, 116,430 active editors, and 847 administrators. Together we have made 1,263,472,313 edits, created 62,224,135 pages of all kinds and created 6,937,289 articles.

...With the latest figures for today's date. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:16, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm not sure that applies. They can only use the statistics available; I don't think there is a way to know how many editors out of the 30 million are actually non-retired. In any case, they definitely have a point in that the RfC was in a hidden part of Misplaced Pages, not centrally publicized, and (in my opinion) in a locus inhabited by editors predisposed to nix items as RS without knowing the full scope of the DM's reportage or importance. They (the DM) made their point by using numbers ... the fact that only 53 editors out of several million made the decision is accurate and valid. Softlavender (talk) 15:18, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Is the RS notice board "hidden"?, no more then the content of the DM which you can only read if you go to it.Slatersteven (talk) 16:13, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

No, something on Misplaced Pages (a public website) called the Reliable Sources Noticeboard is not at all "hidden". That is just a falsehood. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:19, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

So this is what US "LEFTY PRESS HATES" would call a Daily Mail fact?Slatersteven (talk) 16:26, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

My point was that it was in a very little-traveled part of Misplaced Pages, with few current watchers, and populated by and (in my opinion) editors predisposed to nix items as RS without knowing the full scope of the DM's reportage or importance. The RfC was not publicized in Centralized Discussion or on talkpages of the Wikiprojects it most affected. Softlavender (talk) 16:29, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

No. That is why is called the "Reliable Sources Noticeboard." That noticeboard is linked prominently from Misplaced Pages's central policies on reliable sources. And the discussion was in fact noticed on other pages of Misplaced Pages (including this very page). Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:40, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

The RfC was mentioned (extremely non-neutrally) at AN but not added to WP:Centralized discussion or any project-talk where the editors most affected would see it. WP:RSN is not generally watched by many editors beyond the stable of regulars and the very temporary watching of editors who have a question posted there. Softlavender (talk) 16:57, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Again, no. It's the "Reliable Sources Noticeboard." The central notice board for discussing reliable sources. Moreover, there are no projects that are not interested in reliable sources, and that are not effected by reliable sources, or at least if they claim to be, they should be shut down. At any time, in a months time, anyone, including you could have put more notice, if more notice was needed at all (but it was not or you would have done so), anywhere on Misplaced Pages or off Misplaced Pages. And other people did do so, and not just on the Administrators' Notice Board. So, it's a plain lie that anyone hid it or that it was hidden. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:19, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

I said the RfC was not added to WP:Centralized discussion or mentioned on any project-talk where the editors most affected would see it. WP:RSN is not generally watched by many editors beyond the stable of regulars and the very temporary watching of editors who have a question posted there. I'm not sure why you are harping on the word "hidden" (which was obviously a metaphor), much less calling me a liar. Please remember WP:NPA. -- Softlavender (talk) 18:18, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

You could have added it at anytime to centralized discussions and noticed anywhere you wanted as others did. Your "metaphore" is obviously inapt, so it inapt it looks like a plain lie, as far as NPA is concerned that's commenting on the lie not you. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:14, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Fame at last, worship and weep mere mortals. But jokes aside, so they get that I am either "Left-wing political leanings or wider anti-Press agendas" motivated based on the fact I am an SF fab form Essex (whilst ignoring the rest)? Whilst I would hate that we banned on newspaper because of a deliberate act of vandalism, I think their own article shows the kind of bias and laziness (to give them the benefit of the doubt) that caused me to want it banned. It also ignores the fact I have called for other news outlets to be banned (lets be generous and assume gross laziness). It also ignores the fact that I (and others) did link to it;'s many egregious violations, so lets do it again , this was not a mistake it was a deliberate lie. It is this kind of crap that made me vote keep it out. So DM, get your facts right.Slatersteven (talk) 14:59, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

• In addition to the Daily Mail's false name calling, that Slatersteven notes: Five closed, but no they were not all administrators, and it's probable that more than five administrators participated in the discussion. Another falsehood in the Daily Mail article is the suggestion that the month-long discussion was secret, and that only those who "haunt" the Reliable Source Noticeboard (that's decidedly not secret) participated -- all false. I don't even watch the page, and I found out about it in public, while it was on-going. Now, of course, its not an absolute "ban" anyway, The Daily Mail does not run Misplaced Pages. Further, it looks like the Daily Mail is only one who is anti-free speech and anti-free thought - sorry, in a free world, people are more than allowed to determine the Daily Mail is "generally unreliable", but perhaps the Daily Mail does not like free speech. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:03, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

• But... but.. If I my name is mentioned in The daily Mail, does that mean I am now a celebrity? :( BTW, there is now a redirect to the RfC at WP:DAILYMAILRFC. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:22, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

YEP WELCOME TO THE CLUB OF THE Daily Myth TARGET OF THE HOUR. I wonder if we will see a spate of disruptive additions of the DM as a source. Some of the comments make me think we willSlatersteven (talk) 15:32, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

"Michael Cockram is a ginger-haired 35-year-old from Bournemouth..." Not too sure what the colour of my hair has to do with the price of eggs. Wrong, anyhow... Natch. --Twisted oddball —Preceding undated comment added 16:07, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

• Did I get this right: The Daily Mail condemns a community decision by consensus that determined that they are not to be considered reliable because of their proven track record of making false or misleading claims by posting a lengthy op-ed full of factual errors that could easily have been discovered by actually reading the discussion and our policies? Regards SoWhy 15:38, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

OK, we now have a post on the articles page that suggests people start an RFC for using the DM as a source for sports news.Slatersteven (talk) 16:50, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

• The response should be added to Daily Mail as clearly notable for that article.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:38, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Someone at the Daily Mail is outraged? Well I'll be. I'll stick to The Daily Mash instead. Lugnuts 18:06, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Just as another point, based on forums talking about this DM article, there's a inset in the printed version that asks "Have you been wronged by Misplaced Pages? If so, please tell us your story by sending an email to" a DM email address. We should be wary of similar bickering pieces in the future, depending... --MASEM (t) 18:48, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Maybe we need to have a section on the Daily mail article about the fact they now appear top be trying to have a war with Misplaced Pages?Slatersteven (talk) 12:11, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

I think doing that would contravene WP:INSULT, and minorly WP:DENY. It would also exacerbate any so-called "war" by acknowledging that we've seen (and care about) the DM any further than just "it's not a particularly useful source." Primefac (talk) 12:48, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• Note Of 16 !votes cast by administrators, 13 were "support" and 3 were "oppose" Of votes cast by clear SPA accounts, at least 3 were "support". This count is the best I can come up with. Collect (talk) 21:02, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

• Under no circumstances should this whinging, bullying, alternatingly disingenuous and hyperbolic screed be causing anyone who has any idea what they're talking about to cast doubt on Misplaced Pages community processes. The RfC was a little atypical, but it took place in an RfC at a noticeboard. Those are two separate mechanisms to ensure participation. Despite the Mail's histrionics, this wasn't actually a big deal that needed to go through centralized discussion. The Mail was unreliable for almost all purposes before, and it's now explicitly unreliable for almost all purposes. That's it. It could've been added to centralized discussion, sure, but that's certainly not a requirement for something like this, that may attract some press but doesn't have much of an impact on Misplaced Pages itself. There's no free speech issue and there's no "anti-press" agenda. There's just our content policies and guidelines and the extent to which publications like the Mail serve our purposes (or don't). I say "publications like the Mail" because despite being the only one named in a blanket RS-related RfC like this, there are plenty of others likewise functionally disallowed as unreliable, not to mention an extensive, published blacklist. This only feels like a big deal for Misplaced Pages because it's receiving exaggerated and often incorrect coverage press coverage. As I said, this RfC didn't actually change much, but I'll be really disappointed if we allow ourselves to be bullied into calling the close into question... — Rhododendrites \\ 01:19, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
• It's a nasty attack piece, so really has no place here. If readers want to check it out, surely best practice is to link to an archive of it, which at least feels a bit cleaner. It's riddled with bonkers arguments, including "help! help! we're being censored!!" However, the DM clearly feels it's important to gain a reputation as a reliable source: they write "the Mail wrote to all its writers and reporters three years ago instructing them never to rely on Misplaced Pages as a single source, such were the concerns about its accuracy." Makes one wonder that they were doing before that, as Misplaced Pages policy that WP is not a reliable source must go back a dozen years or more.
  Still, never too late to try to be more reliable. A shame that they introduce a claim that "Blacklisting is a term which in its modern context was popularised by the Nazis, who drew up a ‘Black Book’ of 2,820 Britons". The Nazis didn't use the term or even publicise their list: it was only after the war that the list "became known in tabloid-speak as the ’Black Book’.” Can we expect the Daily Mail to salvage its reputation by publishing a correction to their claim? . . dave souza, talk 23:24, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
  • I notice in passing the Daily Mail itself routinely uses the word "blacklist" in its articles. Recent examples here and here. -- Euryalus (talk) 00:34, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
    • The Nazi connection is also (you'll be shocked to hear) something the Daily Mail has just made up; "blacklist" in this sense has been standard English usage for centuries. (His memory was stored with a blacklist of enemies and rivals, Gibbon, Decline & Fall of the Roman Empire, 1788, if you want a high-profile concrete example.) ‑ Iridescent 19:44, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
      • About time for blacklisting – addition of Gibbon will be welcome. . . dave souza, talk 21:21, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
• Question: The title of this section is "Daily Mail headsup". Is "headsup" more like catsup or head cheese? Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:59, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
  • The "hesdsup" point is to link to a webarchive of dubious sources, rather than encouraging readers to contribute page views. While it may be an aside, article improvement is always a good idea. . dave souza, talk 21:21, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Pending changes weirdness

Not sure if this is the right place to ask but here goes. So I was editing greenhouse gas and after saving the edit was surprised to see it show up on my watchlist as a pending change. As far as I could tell my edit did not appear to be vandalism or otherwise disruptive, so I approved it.

Is this how PC is supposed to work? Was it a temporary glitch? Did I do a bad thing by approving my own edit? It seems odd that someone who has the privilege to confirm edits has their own edit show up as unapproved.Sign me "Addled in Ames." Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:53, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Never had this, and I have the same privilege to approve pending changes. Yes (however) I would consider it bad form to approve your own edits.Slatersteven (talk) 16:55, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

I'd assume it's because you (partially) restored a non-accepted edit (the one DrStrauss had reverted). The same thing happened to me once when I edited an IP's edit without accepting it first. I'd say it's not a bug but a feature, i.e. requiring that an edit by a non-autoconfirmed user is explicitly accepted. As for bad form, I see no reason against approving one's own edits since they could as easily have accepted the IP's edit first and then edited it. Regards SoWhy 20:47, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

As I understand it, there were no intermediate edits, so Shock Brigade Harvester Boris's (by the way, nice username) edits should have "gone through". I wasn't disputing the climate change edits you made but because it's a somewhat contentious topic I tend to try and ensure sources are added with new material (I only have a layman's understanding of the process). Maybe it was a bit heavy-handed, if I warned your talk page feel free to remove it as I was just getting to grips with Huggle. Thanks, DrStrauss talk 20:56, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

No problem at all DrStrauss, you were entirely correct to delete an unsourced addition to a possibly contentious topic. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:21, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

• Looking at the log for the page, what is with that last entry, simply "protect" performed by a non admin? Makes me wonder if there is something wrong with the page at a technical level. Likewise, if the previous revision was accepted, it should automatically accept the revision of any auto-confirmed editor, let alone a reviewer... As to the appropriateness of accepting your own revision, often you wouldn't want to do something like that, but here I think it is actually fine. Your edit should have been auto-approved, so your really just fixing a technical defect. Even in a case where there is a technically legitimate reason to have the edits be pending (you edited after non-confirmed editor, and it hasn't been approved yet) your edit isn't actually the one that needs to be reviewed, it is the edit of the person before you that needs the approval, and your independent when it comes to approving THAT edit. Monty₈₄₅ 17:15, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

  The "protect" is a remnant of the extinct WP:AFT tool. It was not protection as such. The situation here is a bug I've seen happen before on rare occasions. And yes, it's fine to accept your own edits if this happens. -- zzuuzz 20:59, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarifications. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:25, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Backlog at open proxy check

Can some admins please help out at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject on open proxies/Requests? We have 9 block requests dating back almost a month, and 3 unblock requests over there right now. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:59, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Add unionpedia.org to the spam blacklist

The privacy policy of Unionpedia (http://en.unionpedia.org/Privacy:) say "All the information was extracted from Misplaced Pages". Unionpedia is a Misplaced Pages mirror, but it is used as reference: Special:LinkSearch/en.unionpedia.org. --Metrónomo's truth of the day: "That was also done by the president" not an excuse. 17:21, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

I think the relevant guidance is WP:CIRCULAR not a spam blacklist. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 17:35, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

I've removed the ones I can. Most links appear at User:EranBot/Copyright/rc/*--Auric talk 12:58, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

TRM

I'm of the opinion that The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)'s current block should be reduced to maybe a week or a relatively short number of days, as opposed to the full month that he's currently serving. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:52, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

...and I apologize for failing to notify TRM. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:16, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

According to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee - "Appeals of blocks or bans directly related to Arbitration Committee decisions or arbitration enforcement:  Discussed and decided by the full committee" DuncanHill (talk) 03:57, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

I had raised this question on Bishonen (talk · contribs)'s page and it was recommended I bring it here. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:03, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Well, who do you think will win in a fight, ArbCom or Bish? DuncanHill (talk) 04:07, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

It was actually a user named Rexxxs or something like that who said to take it to AN. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:09, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

• The ArbCom page says/implies the appeal should go to their email address: WP:Arbitration Committee#What happens to incoming ArbCom email.3F. The editor who is blocked or banned should probably be making the appeal, I imagine. Softlavender (talk) 04:09, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
  • The advice to bring it here, per WP:AEBLOCK, is correct, except for "Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction"—the appeal would have to be initiated by the user. I have long supported TRM (here, for example, is my comment from 1 January 2014), but quickly reviewing cases like this is a bad idea. I have not examined the evidence presented but I have seen a couple of recent cases where TRM was clearly continuing snark. That has to stop. Being right is an excuse for a small number of snarky comments, but it is not acceptable to be a PITA for years. Johnuniq (talk) 04:17, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
    • PITA? Oh, OK, I get it. Well, a month seems harsh to me, especially when someone told him "F.U." recently, and also that he was accused of being anti-Jewish, and as far as I know no action was taken against those users. But if TRM has to appeal it himself, then so be it. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:21, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
      • The F.U. was a more direct way of saying what I said above—the snark has to stop. Johnuniq (talk) 04:32, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

(ec)As I recall, BB, the unfounded accusations of anti-Semitism against TRM were about a year ago. I recall defending him, and a certain editor criticising me for it. I think one might find relevant comments here. DuncanHill (talk) 04:33, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

I thought the Holocaust denial thing referred to this, which is just a few weeks ago. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:32, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Ah, well you hadn't mentioned that before. Good to see your defence of him in that thread. DuncanHill (talk) 05:40, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

I had forgotten that other item from a year ago. Whichever user sort-of accused him of anti-Semitism, just because of his views on circumcision, was over the line. And I consider Holocaust denial to be a subset of anti-Semitism, which is why I was thinking of the January 2017 item. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 06:29, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

• I agree the block should be significantly reduced, if not lifted altogether. Looking at his block log, this is not even close to a reasonable escalation. He hasn't had a block for over 72 hours before and every single block has either been undone as incorrect or reduced to only a few hours. How Sandstein then decided on a month is beyond me. As noted by Iridescent at AE (and apparently ignored by Sandstein) the most recent diff was in response to being told to "fuck off". The decision to fully protect his talk page was also a bizarre one, but I see that has been undone by Bishonen. Jenks24 (talk) 05:44, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
• I did indeed advise Baseball Bugs to take it here, because there's an aspect that deserves community review. The problem in this case is the misuse of AE. The AE request was filed at 21:01 UTC. There was one comment suggesting "cut him some slack", and then a decision was made by a sole admin Sandstein at 21:41 UTC, a mere 40 minutes after the request. That's a denial of any opportunity for debate, and a decision taken unilaterally without consideration of even the small amount of debate that had occurred (no slack was cut). The block was at the extreme end of what was available ("initially up to a month"), and well beyond what Misplaced Pages:Blocking policy #Duration of blocks indicates as standard: "While the duration of a block should vary with the circumstances, there are some broad standards: incidents of disruptive behavior typically result in blocks of from a day to a few days, longer for persistent violations". I contend that AE was never meant to be misused in the manner that is exemplified at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement #The Rambling Man (permalink). It is within the community's purview to examine and comment on actions such as these, and, if necessary, to restrict the actions of any user when that would be in the interests of Misplaced Pages. I content this is only the latest example of a pattern of Sandstein taking unilateral action at AE either without, or in defiance of, the discussion that should take place there. --RexxS (talk) 09:21, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

No administrator is required to seek consensus to enforce an arbitration remedy. AE is just a convenient place to make requests. Any administrator could take unilateral action where they see a breach. Saying that, this case is a clear example of how flawed the Arbitration case is in relation to TRM. TRM works in areas to enforce quality standards that are severely lacking. DYK, ITN, ERRORS etc. Processes that affect what appears on the front page. By its nature almost everything he does is criticism there, because that is the very purpose of enforcing quality standards. And so editor's feelings get hurt because rather than get a pat on the back, they get 'this is badly sourced, this is wrong, this has been reviewed incorrectly' etc. TRM's arb restrictions are so easily gamed, any affronted editor just has to poke him a few times and BAM, TRM gets blocked for retaliating.

Lets just go with the Errors thread with Floquenbeam. TRM reports an obvious problem with the quality of an article on the main page, Floq says it is not, TRM says yes it is and here is why, Floq (an Admin) replies with 'oh well'. At this point most people would be getting frustrated with the clearly uninterested response here. 'If you are not interested why are you here?' is the least of the responses at that point. Leaving aside Floq's 'Fuck you' response which would have gained a lesser editor a block, its symptomatic of some of the admins these days. There have been more than a few recently who have made comments along the lines of 'an admin isnt required to take action'. Well no, but if you are responding to a query on a noticeboard specifically set up to notify admins of errors only they can fix, and the best response you give is 'oh well', then the *priviledge* of having advanced tools in the expectation you use them to improve the encyclopedia is being wasted.

At this point the community either needs to ban TRM completely from the areas where he is making sure the communities quality standards are being met (which would be a loss for everyone and make the front page a shit-show unless someone else picked up the slack) or it needs to seriously look at setting aside the restrictions. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:44, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Actually, not any administrator "could take unilateral action where they see a breach", because of WP:INVOLVED. I am concerned that AE is being used to do an end-run around the INVOLVED policy, where an admin who is barred from taking action themselves simply needs bring a complaint to AE. Some other admin can then be counted on to impose an irreversible sanction, possibly despite other admins' contrary views, because it only needs one admin to impose a sanction, even if a hundred refrain from it. This area is ripe for reform: requiring a reasonable time for discussion, in conjunction with a reasonable consensus to act, seems to me to be the very minimum of what should be expected, given the otherwise inevitable erosion of the INVOLVED policy. --RexxS (talk) 10:19, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Well I thought it was a given it was any 'uninvolved' administrator. I didnt think that basic level of admin-action needed spelling out. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:04, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

No comment on anything except WP:INVOLVED — when you're involved, asking someone else to do the action is precisely what you're supposed to do. Nyttend (talk) 20:01, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

For the record, I warned Floquenbeam for personal attacks, and I apply the same warnings to non-admins, without prejudice. El_C 10:54, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Isn't the convention on AE, usually, that more than one admin comments—not to mention others getting to comment—before closing? I view the haste of closing an AE case so rapidly as somewhat problematic, which I already commented about. I also suggested the talk page not be protected for the full month—thankfully, that was overturned. El_C 09:38, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Leaving aside the specifics of this particular block, am interested in views on a minimum 24-hour period for any AE request to remain open, with an exception for obvious vandalism or serious disruption. Most AE requests don't require an urgent minute-by-minute response, and this is not the first acrimonious debate on how long requests should remain open. A fixed waiting period before action doesn't presuppose multiple admins will actually comment within that time, but it might, perhaps, give people a greater chance to weigh in on controversial issues. -- Euryalus (talk) 10:43, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, an AE case should absolutely without question be open for at least 24 at the very least. This is an absolute no-brainer. Softlavender (talk) 18:45, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

• For what it's worth I agree that the block, if needed at all, seems excessive- as did the total protection of the talk page(perhaps that aspect was an error?) I also am of the opinion that 42 minutes was far too short a time for others to weigh in(even if technically not required)- even if only to allow all involved to calm down for even a few hours. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done. I feel that the vast majority of the comments cited in the complaint did not warrant action- and the few that arguably might have(emphasis on might) didn't warrant a month(such as the one in reply to being told to 'fuck off'). 331dot (talk) 09:47, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
• RexxS, thanks for the belated notification of myself as the blocking admin. I seem to have inadvertently stumbled into a WP:UNBLOCKABLE situation. Nonetheless, I decline to comment further about my admin actions here, as the place to do so would be in the course of an appeal by the editor at issue. If there is no appeal, there is no point in further discussion, in my view.  Sandstein  11:07, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Oh come off it, Sandstein. Your 1 month block is on the harsh side, you know it perfectly. Your subsequent addition of a talk page block on top of it because TRM dared question your decision is petty, mean and vindictive. Your further attempt to grandfather it as a sanction a day later, though, is completely over the top. Perhaps it is time you took another couple of months off AE completely, to regain some measure of perspective. MLauba 11:53, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
  • @Sandstein:. What do you mean "belated"? I notified you within one minute of my mention of you here (09:21 vs 09:22). That's not belated, that's extra-quick and I'd like to see you acknowledge that. There's nothing UNBLOCKABLE about the situation. TRM is blocked. And there's nothing "inadvertent" about your stumbling. You mistakenly, but deliberately, chose to use your discretion to fully protect the talk page in the hope that AE would make your mistake irreversible. That was the wrong sanction if it was in response to TRM's comment "Cheers Misplaced Pages and all those I worked with, it was awesome while it lasted. The shit admins won!" as you claimed. If you want to prevent TRM from breaching his warning, then you remove talk page access, which was allowed by the ArbCom decision: "Nothing in this remedy prevents enforcement of policy by uninvolved administrators in the usual way." If you haven't figured it out yet, the full protection clause was inserted to protect TRM from trolls because most of his problems were acknowledged as stemming from his responses to being provoked by others. It was not placed there to give you the ability to further punish TRM without the possibility of review. Now, I'll make this clear: you are not above Misplaced Pages policy; WP:ADMINACCOUNT requires you to "respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Misplaced Pages-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed." So you don't just get to fob off the community with "I decline to comment further about my admin actions here" as there are queries about: (1) the haste in which you closed the AE; (2) your decision on the block length; and (3) your choice of fully-protecting the talk page as opposed to removing talk page access. Please be kind enough to respond promptly – let's say within an hour of your next edit as you demand of others – to these reasonable requests to explain and justify your actions. Thanks in advance. --RexxS (talk) 12:47, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
    • I agree. Sandstein, these are legitimate queries about your actions here, to which you should respond - and in the timely manner you apparently expect of others. WJBscribe (talk) 12:59, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
      • RexxS and WJBscribe, I have already commented about these issues at WP:AE, my talk page, the blocked editor's talk page and Bishonen's talk page. I will certainly also explain my actions in all appropriate detail if the sanction is challenged by way of an appeal at WP:AE by the blocked editor. If they do not choose to appeal, they accept the sanction and further discussion of it is moot. The Arbitration Committee has determined that only sanctioned editors have standing to appeal their sanctions. This discussion cannot therefore serve as a venue for overturning or modifying the sanction, and I am not accountable to you or to any other editors, except to the sanctioned editor or the Arbitration Committee itself, for my actions in enforcement of the Committee's decisions.  Sandstein  13:41, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
        • @Sandstein:. Quoting from WP:AE: "No administrator may modify a sanction placed by another administrator without ... 2.prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below)" (my emphasis). The important notes state that "reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee" and that if there is a "substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN" (again, my emphasis), then a WP:AE action can be modified. On what basis do you suggest: (i) that this discussion cannot (if a sufficient consensus is reached) modify your action; and (ii) that you are not answerable to the community per WP:ADMINACCOUNT in the usual way for your actions at WP:AE? WJBscribe (talk) 13:53, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
          • The remedy at issue, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/The Rambling Man#The Rambling Man prohibited, states: "The first four blocks under this provision shall be arbitration enforcement actions and may only be reviewed or appealed at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard." (my emphasis). This indicates that this discussion is is out of order because it purports to review the block in the wrong venue. As to accountability, in my capacity as an agent of arbitration enforcement I am answerable to the Committee, per various precedents, even if under certain circumstances others can review my AE actions.  Sandstein  13:58, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
            • As an admin, you are accountable to the community. If you do not retain its confidence, I fear you will struggle to remain an admin - whether to take AE or any other actions. I find your attitude here, which is almost entirely focused on process rather than considering the merits of the feedback you have received from the community about your actions, highly concerning. WJBscribe (talk) 14:03, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
• This was bad block that should be lifted or reduced to time served. The WP:AE discussion includes one comment advocating leniency, followed by the contrary unilateral decision of one admin, with no prior discussion among uninvolved admins. The evidence presented to at WP:AE shows someone being forthright, but I fail to see a violation of policy. Blocking someone for responding to an admin saying, "Fuck you" with "Yet another magnificent admin contribution from someone who pretends to be interested. I'll add it to the list!" is ridiculous.
  As I understand it, an appeal to ArbCom is not needed, an WP:AE block can be modified per "the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at". There is a developing consensus here that the block should (at the very least) be significantly reduced in duration. WJBscribe (talk) 12:34, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

  Without comments on the merits of the block itself, the argument (above and elsewhere) that TRM was blocked for a single action does not bear out. The specific AE request lays out a pattern of diffs dating back over 2 months regarding a multitude of statements made by TRM. To claim the block is invalid because it was for a single action is disingenuous and a red herring. The request did not ask TRM to be blocked for the specific single event noted above, but for a pattern of events dating over a long period of time, so arguments against the block based on the notion that he was blocked for a single event holds no water. Now, having said that, valid arguments would be 1) the block was out of proportion for the offenses 2) the community is of consensus that the actions, while they actually happened, did not merit the block 3) that even though dozens of violations were noted, they weren't really violations so the case falls apart of that reason. Those are all proper reasons for noting the block was invalid. Inventing a fake reason (that he was blocked for a single event) and then denying the validity of the fake event you just created, is not really a rationale. I'm agnostic on the block here, and agnostic on whether or not he should be unblocked, but don't destroy your own case by using disingenuous and spurious reasons when there potentially exists lots of valid reasons instead. --Jayron32 14:57, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• The 1-month block is too harsh and should be reduced to time served, and while TRM appears to be going through a frustrated patch that's not an excuse to treat him like *this*. Also, "If there is no appeal, there is no point in further discussion" is arrogant nonsense - if the community decides an admin action needs discussion then it needs discussion. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:41, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

  Also, a report that was obviously going to be controversial should not have been unilaterally decided and closed so quickly. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:21, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

• I will be so bold as to support the block. Seeing as only a few weeks earlier I had asked for this sanction for TRM's abuse, was denied and even threatened by a non-admin with a boomerang, I now feel vindicated, especially after TRM's subsequent snarky grave dancing at my Talk page banning me from his Talk page, though I was required to issue him a notification. At the point in time of TRM's post, I decided any further statement in my own defense was futile and possibly dangerous. Now TRM is was blocked from the very page he banned me from, which I find ironic. The main point I want to make is this: it seems clear to me that emboldened by the lack of sanctions a few weeks ago, TRM decided he could go back to his openly abusive mannerisms. I'd like to suggest a topic ban from the WP:ITN area, since he has repeatedly shown he is unable to edit constructively there without conduct the community sooner or later has to sanction. Thanks again. (Copied and pasted from Sandstein'sTalk page to here. As to proper procedure, I make no comment.) Jusdafax 12:56, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
• Pathetic block - The AE request should never have been closed so early and to block and talkpage-protect all within an hour is pathetic and unbecoming of any admin, There was a heated discussion on both sides which is why the AE request should've been left open, I would suggest the block either gets reduced to a week or lifted as time served, (If the latter than I'd have no issue with another AE request being filed however blocking without any community-discussion isn't the wisest of things to do IMHO.). –Davey2010 13:13, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
• I don't accept TRM's behavior as appropriate and I endorse this block. In fact I was typing a recommendation for a similar result when Sandstein closed it. I'm a member of his (not-insignificant) block log where, gee, I was handling his "snark" at the Ref Desk more than two years ago. He was still an admin when I blocked him and I received a good amount of abuse at the time for it but I'm not sure why he should be given a hall pass that others don't get. It's still going on, he's been the subject of an ArbCom remedy for it, and AE is meant for quick sanctions against editors who have serial behavior problems. Some of us have the common sense to step away from the keyboard. If we can't we shouldn't be allowed to continue spraying toxins all over the site. --Laser brain (talk) 13:15, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

• TRM recently had cross words with the Women in Red project, "Take a closer look and read what was written. ... Stop making problems ... poor communication skills. ... I repeat what I have said many times before, if you want good results, be good people." He seems to have had a negative effect upon their activity: "many have been dissuaded from participating in DYK nominations as a result of the negative and sometimes insulting reactions they have received". As International Women's Day is imminent and there are editing activities planned around it this month, it might help if TRM took a break at this time. Sandstein's action seems reasonably measured and appropriate as lesser warnings and blocks don't seem to have had any effect in restraining TRM's behaviour. Andrew D. (talk) 13:32, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

That has nothing to do with his block and is a preposterous reason to keep him blocked. Lepricavark (talk) 03:22, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• Totally uninvolved, non-admin opinion: I just spent an hour looking into what happened here and reviewing relevant policy pages, and the month-long block strikes me as wildly excessive. Rivertorch_WATER 15:00, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

• I'm not an admin, but I'd like to say I'm OK with this block. It's just desserts for TRM being a thorn in the side of almost everyone he's worked with. Maybe TRM will learn to be more cooperative as a result of this block. Or at least stop being so angry at anybody who doesn't toe his line 110%. pbp 15:10, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

• Comments as an non-involved cum non-admin editor--I spent some time on the merits and demerits of the case and I support the block.The behaviour of TRM had been little change even after the ArbCom warned him to dis-engage from personal attacks.This person has serial-behaviour problems.But I think his revoking TPA of TRM was overboard.Although the phrase at their discretion support Sandstein's actions.Winged Blades 16:00, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
• The block itself wasn't bad, but it was excessively long - given previous blocks - and closed too quickly. A week would have been reasonable. Black Kite (talk) 18:57, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
• I am neutral about all three editors involved (TRM, Sandstein, Floq). That said, I agree that the block was too long and should be reduced to a week. I also agree the AE was closed too quickly and too unilaterally. I also feel that immediately locking the talk page was inappropriate and appears to be a move to preempt criticism. Softlavender (talk) 19:04, 6 March 2017 (UTC) Edited to add: I now see that the locking of the talkpage was not immediate; my mistake (I hadn't checked but rather based that comment on a bit of hearsay). Softlavender (talk) 14:59, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
• I think that was a fair block. The AE request pointed to lots of clear violations of an ArbCom sanction, all since the editor was given a final "do that again and you'll be blocked" warning in December. That's definitely blockable. There is some discretion over the exact block length but I don't think a month is unreasonable. The objections to it are mostly based on process and not very good ones at that - AE isn't a debating forum and there isn't any requirement to have any sort of dicsussion there before action is taken (indeed you can block for sanction breaches without going to AE at all). Restricting talk page access is what we do when someone uses their talk page to continue being disruptive, and that applies whether you're an experienced editor or a vandal. Hut 8.5 19:20, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Hut 8.5, the talk page was locked; it's not simply a case of TP access removed: . -- Softlavender (talk) 19:31, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
    • I can see why that was done - if other people were allowed to edit it then people might have left degrading messages for TRM which TRM wouldn't have been able to respond to. Hut 8.5 19:42, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Are all the admins involved in this checking that there are no errors on the mainpage in TRM's absence? Lugnuts 14:57, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

TRM appeal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

For what it's worth, TRM has filed is appeal here. El_C 13:46, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Is this meant as an appeal? I'm not sure. There are instructions on how to properly appeal an AE sanction on the user's talk page. Any actual appeal would have to be copied by an administrator to WP:AE, which is the proper venue for review according to the Committee's remedy. (Of course, any administrator is free to do so with this statement, if they believe that it does constitute an appeal.)  Sandstein  13:53, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Are you enjoying this bureaucratic nonsense? TRM and a large number of admins above think your action was wrong and should be overturned. And you're fussing about whether the correct form has been filled out on the right coloured paper and filed in triplicate? WJBscribe (talk) 13:58, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Enjoying? No. But I am a believer in correct procedure, or otherwise we can just dispense with the arbitration enforcement process altogether and leave it to the mob rule of chaotic boards like this one, where the outcome depends entirely on how many friends a problematic editor has made.  Sandstein  14:01, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Do you always equate criticism of your actions to reflecting "how many friends" the user you have blocked has made? Did it occur to you that you might just be wrong? What you see as "mob rule", I see as reflecting the fact that all of us are required to abide by community consensus. WJBscribe (talk) 14:07, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

No. Certainly I can be wrong, just as much as anybody else. And I might well be wrong in this case. (I don't think I am, but I might.) But community consensus has its limits. One of them is the arbitration process. It is intended to deal with situations where the normal consensus-based discussion process has stopped working, and substitutes it with an authoritative decision by an elected authority, the Arbitration Committee. Its decisions are beyond review. The enforcement of them is not, but their review is severely constrained by process. AE administrators must be able to rely on that process being respected, because otherwise the entirely thankless task of applying sanctions in an often highly partisan and emotional environment cannot be carried out. Therefore I insist that any review of the sanction take place in the proper venue and in the proper form.  Sandstein  14:20, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm glad you recognise that your decisions are not beyond review by the community, which I thought was the position you were taking earlier. That said, I don't understand why you think having the discussion at WP:AE would benefit you. Are you really saying you'd prefer it if we cut and pasted the above discussion over to WP:AE? Do you think people's comments will be different if on a different noticeboard, or that a different consensus will emerge? WJBscribe (talk) 14:38, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

I don't know whether the outcome would be any different. But discussions at AE are vastly more structured, per the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}. There is no threaded discussion, but rather individual and word-limited statements by editors, and the decision is taken by consensus of uninvolved administrators, not editors at large. This makes it much easier to discern whether consensus exists to grant an appeal, and prevents overlong, interminable discussions that no uninvolved editor would even want to read. I wouldn't want to be the person who has to determine whether this mess of a thread results in a clear consensus of uninvolved editors.  Sandstein  15:12, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Sandstein, the grievance is that the community of editors and admins didn't get a chance to participate in the AE of TRM. And that he would not have been blocked as harshly if there were to be more input. El_C 14:12, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

I understand the grievance, but it is mistaken. AE, like all arbitration processes, is not a community process, but an unilateral action by a single administrator. It does not run on consensus, and the input of the community is therefore not needed (except, under certain circumstances, in the context of an appeal).  Sandstein  14:22, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Per the instructions at AE: "For a request to succeed, either (i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or (ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA, is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails." since point (ii) is not in play, it clearly means that consensus is required. --MASEM (t) 14:41, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

This describes the appeals process, which does need consensus (and therefore discussion). But the enforcement action needs no consensus and therefore no discussion.  Sandstein  15:25, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Ah, my bad (though the "for a request" part is unclear if it applies to appeal requests or any Enforcement request) --MASEM (t) 16:10, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

If I understand him correctly, it serves as one. TRM writes: "As for appeal, I've written a response to the block above." El_C 14:05, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

"AE, like all arbitration processes, is not a community process, but an unilateral action by a single administrator" However, consider the last time we had a similar sort of AE block to this, we got Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Arbitration enforcement and Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Arbitration enforcement 2, the latter of which has a remedy of "The Arbitration Committee confirms the sanctions imposed on Eric Corbett as a result of the Interactions at GGTF case, but mandates that all enforcement requests relating to them be filed at arbitration enforcement and be kept open for at least 24 hours.". Now The Rambling Man isn't Eric Corbett, I'll grant you that, but wouldn't it have been beneficial to consider past precedent in Arbitration cases particularly one so fraught as that one, and the one preceding it? Ritchie333 18:35, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Then you you are free to copy that "appeal" to the AE board, and I will comment on the merits there.  Sandstein  14:20, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

• Deny here. Per WP:CONEXCEPT it's total nonsense that some admins or others above don't want to follow the appeal process laid out in the Arbcom remedy . Don't blame anyone else, it's Arbcom's problem, and only they have the appeal remedy. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:27, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

• Firstly, deny appeal here. It does seem that it really all depends on who you know in order to determine how your block will end up. I just want to comment that I was once blocked as an AE action, I put an appeal on my talk page, asked for it to be copied over to AE and nothing happened. The admin denied my unblock (and he was the same admin who blocked me) and no appeal was ever copied over to AE. In this case, the action necessary for an appeal is spelled out, and should be followed. Sir Joseph 15:16, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

• • (edit conflict),non admin opinion--Strongly deny appeal here. I cannot but refrain from saying that one's contacts seem to determine how his/her block ends up.Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/The Rambling Man#The Rambling Man prohibited clearly states -The first four blocks under this provision....may only be reviewed or appealed at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard.When the situation on hand precisely fits the situation ,I see no reason for some admins to deviate and review the block-on their own-apparently because they feel TRM had been greatly wronged.Anyway if the consensus is against Sandstein boards will hardly make a difference.This is not my opinion as to the correctness of the block.Winged Blades 15:54, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

• I don't so much want to comment on the appeal, but I'm posting down here anyway, to have some chance of being read. I want to record my disagreement with the people who complain about Sandstein blocking TRM so quickly, without waiting for further comments on WP:AE. There's no problem with a single admin immediately sanctioning a user who has been reported at AE, on their own discretion. I've done that too, and I stand by it; the AE system is intended to simplify arbitration enforcement, not to add an extra layer of bureaucracy. But what I myself have not done is close an AE report immediately after I've done a quick sanction (compare my posts about that very thing in the AE discussion I just linked to), as Sandstein did. That's very problematic. The report ought to be left open to function as a place for others to comment on the sanction, and perhaps even to undo it per admin consensus, and it ought to be left for someone else to close. (Closing immediately after sanctioning per consensus is different, of course. That's just convenient.) In this case, several people did indeed want to comment on Sandstein's block, only to have their comments removed. This, together with the protection of TRM's talkpage, is my criticism of Sandstein's actions — not so much the block itself. The block was overlong but otherwise appropriate IMO. But Sandstein shouldn't have closed the AE thread immediately, shutting everybody up. Coincidentally, his page protection, which I undid, had the very same effect: shutting everybody up.

Sandstein has made certain demands and criticisms of me on my page, to which I'll respond there, in just a minute. Bishonen | talk 15:29, 6 March 2017 (UTC).

Bishonen, thank you for your comment. I did not anticipate that there would be such a disagreement between you and I as to the protocol regarding discussion and closures at AE. My view of the matter is that there is no distinction between an admin taking an enforcement action and closing the respective AE thread. What matters is the action; the closure is merely a janitorial process that signals that the matter has been addressed and any subsequent comments should be made elsewhere (such as on the talk page or in an appeal). This mirrors the practice at XfD where the admin who decides closes the discussion. The practice that a (previously uninvolved) admin closes the discussion by establishing what the consensus is exists in contexts where there needs to be a consensus, such as RfC. But that is not the case at AE, where there may be discussion, and there may even be consensus, but such consensus is not a requirement for action. I therefore do not see it as problematic to act and immediately close an AE thread. Indeed, I even think it is helpful, for what use would any comments after the sanction be? They can't influence a decision that has already been made.  Sandstein  15:42, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

A reason to keep some discussion open (if potentially to convince you, Sandstein, about changing the block action which) especially without as little discussion as there was, was to determine if other factors should be considered here. I have only reviewed a few of the diffs in the action, and in many cases, TRM's choice of language was predicated on someone else throwing snark and bitterness into the conversation. Yes, TRM is walking on eggshelves and should be careful to avoid hostile language regardless of the situation but there does appear to be some cases of added circumstances that we should not be taking singular comments made by TRM out of context. If there are editors purposely goading TRM into hostile language, that's a bad faith action that should be evaluated too. I don't know if this really is the case here, but it is a good reason to have kept discussion opened even with the block completed since other actions may have been merited. --MASEM (t) 16:14, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

• TRM has made some fantastic contributions to wikipedia and he is to be greatly thanked for all of those. Thank you User:The Rambling Man. There is an essay that I can't remember right now but basically it advises, it's time to go, let go, retire, that is the best for User:TRMright now. Govindaharihari (talk) 19:36, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
  • So, Govindaharihari, just to be clear, you are advising The Rambling Man to retire? Please confirm or deny. Softlavender (talk) 21:13, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
    • Softlavender, I'm not entirely sure and I'm just taking a guess, but I think Govindaharihari might be speaking English as a second language (a guess based on his Indian username). I believe he is telling Rambling Man to take a wikibreak, if you consider the rest of the context. Regards, — Moe Epsilon 22:50, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
• TRM is in that most problematic category of users: long term positive contributors who seem incapable of polite disagreement. They seem to believe that being right about something excuses being nasty and condescending about it. They are right that this happening was inevitable, but wrong about why. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:26, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages's a collaborative endeavour. We need people who're good at encyclopaedia writing, and everyone deserves a chance to argue their point. And anyone can occasionally lapse into a bit of grump. But there comes a point where an editor is so uncollegial that we've got to decide whether they're a net positive, and how can we deal with problem behaviour if there's always another last chance?—S Marshall T/C 22:16, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Yep. This really is the most problematic kind of user issue. How do we retain the positive contribs while ridding ourselves of the nastiness and ensuing drama? We tried the one single tool we have, a behavioral restriction, and as usual it doesn't seem to have worked. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:31, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

• You don't. You accept that sometimes, you're going to lose some editors for the good of the community. You don't keep on throwing soft balls to people who play hard and fast. I think the best way to retain the positive contributions here is to thank Sandstein for wading in and making the difficult call for us, slap a large barnstar on his userpage and to back him up. Sysops with the character to make the disciplinary decisions are even rarer and more precious than good encyclopaedia writers. And sanctions will be even less effective if popular editors can just get them overturned on AN. At some point there's got to be a final last chance. TRM has had enough warning shots across his bow, and now it's time for him to take his medicine, wait out his month, and then either change or leave.—S Marshall T/C 00:08, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Thomas Price (actor) recreation

Thomas Price (actor) was previously deleted via Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Thomas Price (actor) in April 2010, but was re-created about two weeks ago. Cirt is the the admin who closed the AfD, but he/she has not edited since April 2016. So, I am wondering if another admin could check to see if this "new" version is an improvement over the one which was deleted and thus not eligible for CSD per WP:G4. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:39, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

This is how it read:

The older version was more of an article than the actual one; I do not know if his new roles make him notable. Lectonar (talk) 6:43 pm, Today (UTC+9)

There appear to be some issues with COI.Slatersteven (talk) 10:53, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

I think this is about the above, can this be moved?Slatersteven (talk) 10:07, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Its in the right section now. But you should probably re-word/re-position it for context. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:37, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

@Lectonar, Slatersteven, and Only in death: Thanks for taking a look. I've tried to reorganize this thread per WP:TPG#Fixing layout errors so that the posts are in chronological order. Hopefully things will now be easier for others to follow now. -- Marchjuly (talk) 11:55, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

• Note This page was deleted by Yamla, with the rationale (G11: Unambiguous advertising or promotion: Page created by Bliss Media, a promotional company, in violation of WP:PAID. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 18:59, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

RfC close review please?

Hi, Wikipedians. Three days ago I closed an RfC about alleged Russian interference in the 2016 US presidential election. Since then an IP editor has raised some additional points on my talk page, which are clearly meant as a challenge to my close, and so I'd be grateful if some independent editors could check and confirm whether I got it right. If I was mistaken then I'm very happy to be overturned, and any sysop should feel free to replace my close with their own.—S Marshall T/C 21:51, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

• It was an excellent close and should be respected. The IP should be advised to seek consensus for improvements by making the case on the article talk page. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:07, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

One of the main points I raised was that the GRIZZLY STEPPE – Russian Malicious Cyber Activity report has the following disclaimer: The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) does not provide any warranties of any kind regarding any information contained within." 2602:306:396F:22D0:80ED:F0FE:C130:4AC9 (talk) 22:37, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

My view is a non-admin closure is not appropriate as the outcome is a close call (especially where there are several valid outcomes) with no consensus reached and is controversial and the closure is better left to an administrator. 80.235.147.186 (talk) 00:03, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

That is a reasonable initial position, but User:S Marshall/RfC close log contains links to many excellent closes demonstrating extraordinary experience in quality contentious closes. The solution is the bluelinking of Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/S Marshall 3. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:40, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

In my view, the closure was fine with the exception of how much to put in the lead. There wasn't much consensus on the amount of details to put in the lead. As correctly mentioned in the summary, the relevant part of WP:LEAD is: The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies. Several support votes simply mention/imply support for mentioning Russian interference in the lead (not explicit support for the paragraph), there was some discussion about the weight given to the subject by including an entire paragraph in the lead, and there was some discussion about the neutrality of the wording of the paragraph.

I think that the better close is that support for inclusion was well-supported by the WP:LEAD policy I quote here, but that there was no consensus about the exact wording and how much to mention in the lead. Since the wording in the lead is bound to be contentious (beyond what the closer should do), the best thing to do is just leave the issue out of the lead for now and open a second RfC on how to word the mention of Russian interference in the lead. While not a comment about the close but rather about the outcome, in my opinion, an entire paragraph gives far too much weight to the issue and it should be just a single sentence. AHeneen (talk) 02:03, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

A two sentence version is currently suggested at Talk:United_States_presidential_election,_2016#Suggested_wording. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:07, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Our Policy for Blocking Anons? Long term blocks for a single edit?

Hi Everyone. First let me provide some background. Over the past few years I've been largely inactive from the project but have become more active recently. In my recent patrols of AIV I've noticed a trend that I believe merits discussion. There have been a number of Anons who have prior long term blocks (Schools, Shared connections) that are being reported to AIV and blocked by a number of administrators for exceptionally long periods of time (a good chunk are reported by Anon editors themselves). Here is the most recent diff for large-scale reports. Looking at most of the IPs on that list many are being blocked for long periods of time ranging from one month to three years. Most of them have not edited immediately recently and are reported a few days or weeks after their most recent edit. Most if not all have not received a full spectrum of warnings, if any at all. The trend is that they make a single edit or very few edits and then the IP is given a long term block due to a history of edits from years ago. Here are some examples. 1, 2, 3, 4, and the list goes on for with numerous IPs (I've seen this trend over the past month or so and if anyone would like more examples from other circumstances I would be happy to provide them). Our blocking policy is clear that blocks are not punitive but rather preventative. As these are schools, shared IPs, etc. hitting them with very long term blocks over single edits when they have received only a level 1 warning, if any at all, seems to me to run counter to our goal of Assuming Good Faith and "being the encyclopedia anyone can edit." Further, as the Anons are generally reported a few days/weeks after their last edit their is no urgent disruption taking place.

I am not naive enough to believe that everyone from these IPs is a constructive editor, however considering the large number of positive contributions that Anons make to the project I am concerned by this trend. I know we generally follow a progressive approach for blocking, however putting an IP on a hairtrigger for a long term block after they have not made any edits for years seems to me to run counter to what we are all about as especially for a school or other shared IPs the individual who made an edit two or three years ago is almost certainly not the one making an edit now. I have seen a number of Admins issuing these blocks and this is not meant to be a condemnation or discussion of any specific admin or editor. I have notified both the Anon and the Admin who issued the blocks I've used for my examples however I am more interested with clarifying what our position is or should be concerning this and then updating our blocking and other relevant polices to reflect what is decided. If we are in effect going to issue de-facto indefinite blocks to IPs with a certain behavior pattern subject to immediate reblocking after expiration we should simply state as much in our policy, notify admins active in the area, and issue an Indef or very long multiyear block and save everyone the trouble. If anyone believes an RfC is a better forum I would be happy to initiate one. Best, Mifter (talk) 22:10, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

After further thought, would it perhaps be worth exploring a technical solution to this issue as well as a policy one? For example a system where after the release of a block, a problematic IP with a history of disruption automatically has any edit made subject to Pending Changes for a certain timeframe to both balance our need with preventing vandalism while still allowing for constructive edits. Mifter (talk) 22:22, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

This is a new trend that has picked up in the last year or so. I've largely stopped patrolling AIV when I'm active because it seems what I look for before blocking (at least one vandal edit after an appropriate third or fourth level warning) is out of step with the regular patrollers. --NeilN 22:30, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

While not an IP edit, here is another example that bothered me a bit (yes, I checked the filter log too). This user was banned blocked indef, even after apologizing for making one set of vandal edits, which seems a bit draconian. I'm not trying to highlight any admins here, just that policy has shifted over time to longer blocks, as noted by Mifter above. Garchy (talk) 22:36, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Just to note - AFAIK pending changes is applied to articles not to editors - IP or named. Garchy this thread about IPs. Your post is about a specific named editor. You might want to start a separate thread here or elsewhere so it doesn't get lost in what Mifter is talk about. MarnetteD|Talk 22:43, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Garchy, that editor was indef blocked (not banned) after two edits, not one. And their second edit was not an actual apology, it was more trolling. If they want to be unblocked, all they have to do is fill out the template on their talk page. Softlavender (talk) 22:52, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)@Marnette, that is how PC currently works, I was more postulating that we might see about extending its technical capability to be used as a form of "probation" for certain IPs after coming off a block instead of immediately re-blocking for a longer duration. @Garchy, while that does fit into the larger trend of us issuing harsher blocks, long term blocks for IPs after minimal disruption is in my estimation more specifically problematic. Accounts that appear to be WP:NOTHERE generally get (and have for as long as I can remember) a shoot first, ask questions later type approach. However, that also might be worth reviewing in a separate discussion as part of our larger goal of retaining new editors (which is a documented problem currently facing the project.) though I agree with Softlavender that that specific example may be more trolling than an apology (it could also be an example of a young user who simply doesn't yet get how Misplaced Pages works however.) @Neil, I agree wholeheartedly with both your criteria for blocking and pulling back at AIV due to feeling out of step with what some of the regulars are doing. Mifter (talk) 22:59, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm noticing that all the IPs provided as examples are schools. From what I understand, contacting the school usually proves to be useless. No other comment as to whether it is right or wrong. @Garchy: That user had quite a few attempts at vandalism in their edit filter log: if the edit filter wasn't present, it'd be more obvious that they were a vandalism only account. It really wasn't "one set of vandal edits," it was multiple attempts to vandalize despite the site asking them to not do that. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:04, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

• I believe enforcement has gotten stricter because we've realized this crap is never going to stop. Schools in particular are getting harsher blocks because they are the source of a large portion of vandal edits. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:18, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

• I definitely support block length escalation, eventually up to repeating 2 year blocks, and have placed some myself. However, when it comes to routine vandalism, I prefer to see a fully warning cycle between each escalation. Obviously if it is more serious than just petty vandalism, we don't need to go through the full cycle. Also, if it is obviously the same real person coming back (same article getting vandalized), block away. The foggy one, is how much to weigh new vandalism shortly after block expiration, but really that will get through the warning cycle fast enough anyway. We don't want to remove admin discretion, or start second guessing over minutia, but it may be worthwhile to hold an RFC just to get advisory input on how the community views different situations. Monty₈₄₅ 00:05, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

What I want to know is are these instructions still valid?

• The user must have been given enough warnings to stop their disruptive behavior.
• The warnings must have been given recently and the users must be active now, especially for unregistered users.

Because I'm seeing a tremendous number of blocks based on edit filter logs. Are we now counting edit filter stops as warnings? --NeilN 00:10, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

My feeling is that if the IP has committed a deliberate act of vandalism - i.e., one that the editor could not possibly have thought was helpful to the encyclopedia - and been warned for it, and then does it again, additional warnings are unnecessary. The IP knows what they are doing, and continues to do it deliberately, so additional warnings before blocking would simply be bureaucracy for its own sake. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:04, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure how we should treat them when it comes to IPs. When it comes to an account, I think it is reasonable to consider the edit filter stops when considering whether it is a Vandalism only Account, as long as the content is blatant vandalism. Monty₈₄₅ 00:15, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• If it's any comfort, anons who do this sort of thing are always from the same IP range and location. So that's all actually just one person. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's noticed the dynamic IP who frequents AIV. They will often make reports similar to this. Other users and I have warned them numerous times to cut it out but this person just doesn't seem to care. Sro23 (talk) 01:22, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• Judging by , the IPs reported in the big batch all (or mostly all) got blocked, as did 58.26.127.137, the subject of the "this" diff. What's the problem? If a lot of people are being disruptive, it's good that someone's reporting them. Nyttend (talk) 06:40, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• The IP user is probably User:Taokaka, who's always had issues at AIV. -- zzuuzz 16:02, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• Been there, done that, got the unblock request. I don't mind blocking IPs at AIV for blatant and obvious vandalism. Heck, I agree with BMK that you don't need to give them any warnings per WP:RBI, if you purposefully write "poo" in a high-traffic BLP you get an instant block if I spot it quickly enough, but only for the rest of the school day. I have seen Widr "block first and ask questions later", including slapping a two year block on an IP I happen to know is used by adults on a regular basis, which is akin to cracking a sledgehammer with a nut. Ritchie333 10:15, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
• Some, most notably schools, are never going to be the source of useful editing, however, and it is reasonable to reblock these as soon as the vandalism starts up again after the block runs out. Look at this one for example

• Blocked 15 January 2009 for a year
• Blocked 27 January 2010 for a year
• Blocked 4 February 2011 for a year
• Blocked 13 February 2012 for 2 years
• Blocked 25 February 2014 for 3 years
• Blocked 1 March 2017 for 5 years

• In each case the vandalism starts up immediately the block expires. A complete waste of time - in these cases we might as well just block them indefinitely. Black Kite (talk) 10:48, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

The problem with that is that IP addresses change, and the indefinitely blocked IP address could get reassigned to an innocent person that cannot figure out why they're blocked. —MRD2014 📞 What I've done 15:05, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• My 2 cents FWIW my view is that shared IP addresses, especially schools and libraries, that become a source for endless vandalism should be blocked long term and the blocks should be renewed as soon as the previous one expires and the vandalism starts up again. There are also certain "zero tolerance" forms of behavior or vandalism that will get an instant no warning block from me. Examples include serious threats, the use of slurs (racial/ethnic, sexual, religious etc.), and other forms of extreme over the top vandalism such as throwing out references to eating fecal matter and so on. When dealing with ordinary run of the mill vandalism I almost always require reasonable warnings before going for the block. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:20, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

This might be a stupid question, but if you are at a location where an IP is blocked, you can still log-in? If so, my not create a yuge advertisement page that encourages people to make an account so they can edit and just have any edit attempts redirect to that page?Casprings (talk) 15:32, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

You mean like this...? -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:40, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Due to persistent vandalism, anonymous editing from your school, library, or educational institution's IP address is blocked (disabled). You will continue to have access to read the encyclopedia. If you are logged in but still unable to edit, please follow these instructions. To prevent abuse, account creation via this IP address might also be disabled.

If account creation is disabled and you are unable to create an account elsewhere, you can request one by following the instructions at Misplaced Pages:Request an account. Please check on this list that the username you choose has not already been taken. If editing is required for class projects, please have your instructor or network administrator contact us (with reference to this IP address) at the Unblock Ticket Request System with a contact email address that is listed on your school's website. Thank you for your cooperation.

Goes on the talk page? Not bad, but also a bit tricky if you are new and don't know what a talk page is. Wonder if there is a way to make it more "in your face".Casprings (talk) 15:43, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

{{schoolblock}}, {{anonblock}} and similar are usually used in the block log. It's completely in your face as it's prominently displayed whenever the blocked user tries to edit a page. -- zzuuzz 15:55, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

I'd like to see more use of the block templates - I've seen many IP blocks and school blocks go ahead with no template - I usually end up adding it in after a block has been done. Garchy (talk) 19:29, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

As Casprings said, most users won't even know what a user talk page is. The user who 'gets' the notice is quite likely to not even have any intention of editing. It is more important that they go in the block log. Most admins are generally quite good about doing that. -- zzuuzz 19:35, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Don't IPs get that big orange box when there's something on their talk page? That's pretty hard to misunderstand, and even harder to ignore. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:22, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Mobile version of Misplaced Pages doesn't have talk page unless logged in otherwise. — RainFall 06:49, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

It only takes one user to look at the notice, and then the orange box is gone forever. On a shared a IP that notice could be picked up by one of hundreds of readers before any editor has had a chance to see it. No one will ever see it again. -- zzuuzz 07:22, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

I believe that in the links at the top right hand of the page the "talk" link appears in blue (as does the "contributions" link, even when the IP has never edited). If there is no talk page clicking on the link brings up a notice reading "no messages have been posted for this user yet". Why not arrange things so that if there is no talk page the "talk" link is red, and add at the left of the display the line 'If the "talk" link is blue you have a talk page and it contains messages'? 80.5.88.48 (talk) 09:25, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Question on Misplaced Pages:RFC on Russian Interference Opening - Conclusion versus accused

United States presidential election, 2016 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I took an RFC that was originally on United States presidential election, 2016, placed it at Misplaced Pages:RFC on Russian Interference Opening - Conclusion versus accused, so that I could display it both on the original page, and on the talk of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections . This seems logical to me because there is a discussion on both pages concerning the wording. I just wanted to post here to ensure it is okay.Casprings (talk) 14:59, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Just to add to this thread, User:Politrukki undid the RFC on the Russian influence page, which I reverted. Its the same discussion on the same text and the RFC is older then the other proposed text. I think we should just get consensus on this and going. That said, I will notify the user and take the guidance from others.Casprings (talk) 20:26, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I can't parse what "Its the same discussion on the same text and the RFC is older then the other proposed text." means. I agree that two articles can share the same content – but they don't necessarily have to when context is not the same: it's supposed to be the first sentence in election interference article only, whereas in another article it's just one sentence among others.

Casprings opened the RFC without clearly saying that this RFC directly affects two articles. Well, there's a note that says Note: Added RFC to Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections article as it also relates to discussion ongonging there. – but I assumed that it means that Casprings has added appropriate notice to Talk:Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections. I'm sorry but this edit today is the only edit I can find that is related to the note. And why does the note say "there" if that means here or there, depending on the context?

Look, it's possible to open one RFC for two articles if it's done properly. Few months ago Casprings properly opened an RFC, which was meant to have wider impact, in NPOV noticeboard and added appropriate notices to multiple talk pages. Why did they not do the same this time?

I'm pretty sure that all current RFC participants are not aware of Casprings' intention that this RFC is supposed to directly affect two articles. For example DrFleischman recently added their not-vote with a note "(I'm not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.)" – which page would "this page" be?

Currently there is no consensus for lead sentence for Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections and there is edit war going on, but only one of the options (option B) included in the RFC has been weaponized in the battle, while United States presidential election, 2016 remains locked. Politrukki (talk) 23:03, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

The context is different in both articles; we cannot assume that consensus in one of them would automatically be the same consensus in the other one. In particular, the text under discussion is the subject-defining lead paragraph of the Russian interference article, whereas it should be a shorter mention in the presidential election article (as determined by a prior RfC). Finally, one article talk page has already spawned further discussion about proposed versions of the text, whereas those versions wouldn't apply in the other article. — JFG 01:27, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

I would point that user:coffee commented on this when asked by user:JFG.Casprings (talk) 02:12, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Right here in River City

An RfC that needs re-closing by an admin: Talk:Kfar Ahim#RfC: Arab vs. Palestinian.3F was re-opened merely because it wasn't closed by an admin, on the demand of a minority-opinion participant. Could an admin re-close it, or at least look at it? Consensus hasn't changed and it's gone very stale. Softlavender (talk) 18:47, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Softlavender, what do you mean? "Ya got trouble, my friend, right here, I say, trouble..."? Nyttend (talk) 23:01, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Forgive the thread title; when I started typing the thread there were two very troubled RfCs that needed admin closing, but then I realized that one of them was dealt with recently. But I liked my thread title enough to keep it. Anyway, that one troubled RfC needs an admin look-see and hopefully a close. Softlavender (talk) 23:12, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Category:Requests for unblock very backlogged

Category:Requests for unblock is very backlogged as it currently has 40 unblock requests. Just wanted to let you know about the big backlog. —MRD2014 📞 What I've done 14:53, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Creating a page for a non-profit organization - Make a Difference Now

Hi, can someone help me to create the following page as I will like to add this non-profit group to wikipedia so the public can learn more about the organization and what they are offering to children and education in Africa? Thank you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/Make_A_Difference_Now — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anyhsu (talk • contribs) 19:01, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

@Anyhsu: Please see the welcome message I added to your talk page as well as our notability guidelines for organizations that need to be met before an article can be written. If the group does meet the guidelines, going through WP:AFC will get you started. --NeilN 19:19, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

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