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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 January 2017
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port of durres is one of the biggest on the adriatics, put it on the transportation )panorama photo of durres with port 77.180.153.109 (talk) 20:50, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — Sam Sailor 00:19, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
Macedonia link
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change ((Macedonia)) to ((Republic of Macedonia|Macedonia)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:541:4305:c70:74eb:a2f8:5e2b:a704 (talk • contribs)
Not done: Unlinked ]. The Macedonia has been linked in the above paragraph, so not necessary. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 06:43, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 February 2017
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I think that this page needs a new exact data that in this moment dont has. Statistical data in many areas are not true and they need correction. I seek your permission to do that. EfiLuko (talk) 23:17, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — Train2104 (talk • contribs) 00:56, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
Why not admit that the country has problems that they are working to solve?
Someone deleted the fully cited content I had added indicating that Albania has some issues to resolve before it is admitted into the European Union. It was deleted, saying there was no need for so much information.
Well, articles on Misplaced Pages are to be written from a neutral point of view: the wonderful things, the problems and what is being done to solve them. See WP:NPOV I am not an administrator, so I have no authority to do anything about the content that is being deleted, but if this article is reviewed for a Wiki Project, you may have problems with the content as it now stands. All the best, Peter K Burian (talk) 22:18, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
- I just noticed that there is a section about the European Union which includes the content I had added about the problems that need to be solved. (I had also added a note about that in the lead of the article, but that was deleted.) Peter K Burian (talk) 23:12, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
- The sections you have added constitute wp:undue. Why such a large section on foreign commentary about Albania's economy which only ranges for the past two years, especially that from Forbes magazine and the IMF. This article is meant to be a summary about Albania over time. This is not the main article about Albania's economy. If you want, you can transfer that section to the article Economy of Albania. A few sentences about Albania's budget/issues should only be in this article, in line with the other sections. Also large sections of quotes within the main body of the article are more on the wp:POV side. Otherwise one can do this for articles like Greece on its economy or the USA on its current issues with Islamophobia. Best.Resnjari (talk) 03:57, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
Inaccuracies, omissions and POV issues with Ethnic map
A ethnic map produced now some years back is problematic and the claim that there is a consensus around it is also a problematic claim. The map does not It claims to show areas with a traditional presence of other ethnic groups other than Albanian. It has many issues. For one its omits the Romani minority who are one of the largest ethnic communities in Albania and are a traditional community . Two, it only uses 5 sources: 1)http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Hellenism_in_the_Near_East_1918.jpg, 2)The Albanians, a scattered people. by Philippe Rekacewicz. Monte Diplomatique. 3)Working Paper. Albanian Series. Gender Ethnicity and Landed Property in Albania. Sussana Lastaria-Cornhiel, Rachel Wheeler. September 1998. Land Tenure Center. University of Wisconsin. 4)The Virtual Jewish History Tour. Albania. By Ariel Scheib. 5)Winnifrith, Tom (2002) Badlands-borderlands: a history of Northern Epirus/Southern Albania, London: Duckworth
Apart from Winnifrith and the Lastaria-Cornhiel sources which are or can be regarded as meeting the requirements of wp:reliable and wp:secondary. Also the map makes sweeping claims by showing the whole of Southern Albania (which corresponds almost in sync with the borders claimed for "Northern Epirus", not even Sotiriadis follows that line and the Le Monde news article shows it hatched and based it on the work of a literary critic in 1995) as having a traditional Greek presence while the sources cited for this (i am guessing is based on the map of Sotiriadis (early 20th century) has not been vetted in the scholarship literature as to whether it is based on Greek POV from the era or not and also as to why that map takes precedence over many other similar maps), well the peer reviewed ones like Winniwrith, yet on page 192 on his ethnographic map he makes no such sweeping claims and limits the Greek speaking minority roughly to what the Albanian state considers Greek with a few additions like Himara. Even Greek scholars who have done extensive field and archival work on are in line with Winnifrith (Kokolakis , Psomas and of course Kallivretakis ). The map also lacks correct coordinates of some places like the Greek villages of the Vlora area of Narta and Zvernec are not highlighted in the right area (at the moment its covering the villages of Cerkovine and Hoshtime) as its slightly further south and literally both are at the Narta lagoon's entrance located on that peninsula.
The map also claims with overlap that there are Greeks in the Albanian Prespa region which was at independence and still is inhabited by ethnic Macedonians. The map also refers to "Slavic Macedonians", which in Albania is not how they are officially recognised. In Misplaced Pages too, they are referred to as Macedonians (ethnic group) due to much infighting over the issue. The villages of Alarup and Peshkepi near the Mali i Thate mountains and the Albanian Prespa villages of Rakickë, Zagradec and Shuec are shown as Macedonian and there is no evidence for this. The map also does not fully cover Muslim Macedonian speaking areas in Golloborda (nor does one know what that was based on, as it only shows half the area?), over colours the Macedonian speaking area in the Peshkopi area, - there were only a few settlements and they were mixed. After communism Orthodox Macedonians migrated to Macedonia leaving them only in one village Kercisht). The map also shows extensive Macedonian areas around lake Ohrid and takes in villages like Rrajce on the foothills of the Jablanica mountains and goes down all the way to Udenisht on the lake coast. There is nothing offered to corroborate that. Only Lin had/has Macedonians mixed with Albanians. While the map also omits the Gorani villages completely in Kukes province. The map also omits two Bosniak villages in the Shijak area, while in the Shkoder area the Serbian/Montenegrin minority is given territory that spans the whole lake area, when in reality those villages were/are a few and mainly a cluster in an area called Vraka. The map also refers to the Vraka area as being inhabited by only Serbian/Montenegrin when an additional community, the Podgoriçani (Muslim Slavic speakers who were expelled from Montenegro in 1878 also resettled and live there and do not regard themselves as either Serbian/Montenegrin, but Podgoriçani). The map also highlights some areas containing Vlachs more thickly (in the Dropull while omitting other areas). There is detailed research on this as per Thede Kahl ( - i have the book for that map too and he gives a very big village list). Why should this map be used when its full of inaccuracies, omissions, POV and poorly researched on complex issues such as demographics? We can discuss on how to make the map accurate, as i have a much peer reviewed scholarship on this stuff and none of it from Albania. Resnjari (talk) 08:15, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- You are right that the map does not cover every possible community that lives on Albanian soil, nor it displays their areas. But you are missing the point; the map does not claim to show all and every community, but the ones that are of interest to the scholars and academics. The map furthermore shows, not the official census of the Albanian government (it doesn't have to), but the estimes of academics and scholars regarding the minority areas in the country. The fact that the scholars did not cover all and every of the possible different communities that live in Albania does not make their work "biased" or "dubious" as you claim. Please refrain from ever removing sourced material like how you did now.
- Your opinions and your knowledge you have about certain areas in Albania may be different from the ones the scholars have and which are reflected on the map (which is absolutely natural), but this does not give you the right to decide and remove other's work just because you don't agree with theirs. -- SILENTRESIDENT 08:22, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- I am not missing the point, nor am i citing the official Albanian government census. Its about accuracy, its about being precise. I am referring to scholarship, i.e content based on facts. The Jewish community is highlighted in urban areas and a source is used for that. Ok, fine, but what of the Romani ? They are in the many tens of thousands in Albania and there is much written on that to the point that even the UN has a database for that ! How do you explain their omission from the map ? What about the Gorani, much written on that and i can go on with this. As for a particular community being of interest to scholars, they all are. All it takes is to look up something. There are guidelines on this, i.e: WP:DISPUTED. The onus is on you to show that the map is not WP:POVPUSH. This map needs a overhaul.Resnjari (talk) 08:36, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- This again is just your OPINION. Nothing more, nothing less. I do not know the reason the scholars focused on some minorities and not on others. But this does not mean you can dispute and question their work on the grounds that "not every minority or community is included". A work is just a work - it may contain more information about one subject and lack about another subject. This does not make it biased. A scholar may not provide all the information you seek - hence why in Misplaced Pages we cite multiple sources from multiple scholars to present all possible information and cover everything - i.e. the minorities in our case here.
- Actually the map has biased bits especially in relation to the spread of Greeks in Albania . A map from the 1920s is used which is wp:or as there are many other maps that a different from that one (why Sotiriadis only?) while recent scholarly work (Greek too) all but debunkes it (see: Koklakkis, Psomas and Kallivretakis which all contradict this, not to mention the map by Winnifrith too). The Le Monde map too is not from a peer reviewed source, but a news outlet. In Misplaced Pages, wp:reliable and wp:secondary always comes first so as to prevent wp:fringe from occurring. The map has multiple issues needing to be addressed. For one many parts of the map show wp:undue while omitting other communities that are large, larger than some of the others. Until the author of this map can address some of the issues those tags are more than apt.Resnjari (talk) 08:55, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- If you happen to have any new information about these minorities not covered in that map, you are welcome to add them, just make sure to cite the sources. -- SILENTRESIDENT 08:43, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- I have heaps. Thing is about the editor who composed the map, not sure if he going to make the changes. Or should i ?
- Nope. You can not edit this map to change its information and remove its sources to suit your POV. The behavior of removing sources or changing the map information to suit your POV is not tolerated in Misplaced Pages. However there is no problem in citing new sources and even maps that reflect them. But by no means you can make or edit a map to suit your POV. The idea here is to represent as much information as possible, from as many different sources as possible, not to question or remove a particular scholarly work just because it does not suit certain POVs.
- Like I said: you are right that the particular map does not reflect upon certain minorities in Albania and I agree with this. But your methods are wrong: removing sourced information does not fix the problem, only makes things worse. -- SILENTRESIDENT 09:05, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- I am not going to remove it. I want to know who is going to put the hard effort into fixing it. If Alexikoua wants to do it, fine. He will need to use google maps and soviet military maps giving precise location of settlements alongside the material. None of this roughly its here type thing (like i pointed out with the Narta issue and other places too). Also i have a lot of stuff for him to read then, some in German in relation to Slavic speaking minorities on fieldwork done recently. There is a lot out there. Best.Resnjari (talk) 09:28, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- What a nonsense. You are asking to replace the map's sources with different ones, not to fix it. Please, enough with your POV. -- SILENTRESIDENT 10:02, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- I have the sources. If you want to participate that's fine.Resnjari (talk) 10:59, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- Actually the expression " traditional presence of ethnic groups other than Albanian" doesn't imply a majority. However, I admit if we should be precise the Greek inhabited area should be slighlty extented to the north based on the maps of Monde Diplomatique ] (labelled as regions of "Greek majority") and the map of the CIA report on Albania ] (region of significant Greek populations). On the hand, if we should term a map as POV this is the one of the highly disputed 2011 census. Thus, per wp:SECONDARY, ACADEMIC there is no reason to remove a map that shows the traditional presence of the various ethnic groups.Alexikoua (talk) 10:26, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- Wait Le Monde overrides wp:secondary and wp:reliable Winnifrith, Kokolakkis, Psomas and Kallivretakis. Your serious right ? Le Monde makes a claim that the hatched area in orange is "Zones a majorite grecque" or Greek majority zones, not sure though what their basis is as they don't give one. Even though they cover Kolonje part of the Korca area, Gjirokaster, Saranda and the Himara area they still don't go as far as you do in your map, not even Sotiriadis (Just out of curiosity since you stand by Le Monde maps, they have a ethnic map of Macedonia. In that they colour even Greek Prespa as being Albanian ? Are they correct there ? ). In your map you have also coloured areas that have a Muslim Albanian population where no Christian populations reside or have affiliated with Greek identity in a late 19th century or early 20th century context, since you refer to traditional. The spread of Greek in the map regarding Greek identity is a little bit off here. Why do you have a separate Vlach category then, considering they identified as Greeks traditionally both in the late 19th and early 20th century and once again. Shouldn't they be Greek? If you have them separate then should areas were Orthodox Albanians (or Orthodox Albanian speakers for those who might be offended in calling them Albanians) reside not be coloured as Greek as its POV? Because what of the Orthodox Albanians, do they exist in this framework ? As you refer to traditional, what do you mean by Greek (is it in terms of identity/religious affiliation, being Greek speaking, both or other)? Or is this being selective. Also lets work out some things here. Why is Sotiriadis chosen as a map to base your map on when there is a multitude of other such maps showing different distributions? Have you vetted Sotiriadis? I have, but i will wait on a reply from you. Also the CIA report was published in 1994. Winnifrith which you have used in your map is from 1999 and in no way covers the area of the CIA map as Greek. Kokolakis shows a similar thing in the late 19th/early20th century to Winnifrith, Psomas refers to the issues of Orthodox Albanians being between Hellenism and Albanianism. Kallivretakis also confines Greeks to a southerly region similar to Albanian sources based on his fieldwork. Funny that. By the way, the CIA intelligence memorandum is a primary document. Using them has issues, see: WP:PRIMARY where it states that "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation." Resnjari (talk) 10:59, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- Resnjari, you are not convincing. If your concern is that certain minorities are not represented accurately on a map, there is always the option of making a new map using different reliable sources and post it (Misplaced Pages in fact favors representing all views regarding a matter). But I don't see that here. What I see in your responses to me and editor Alexikoua is that you want to remove or replace the map and the scholarly views/estimes it represents, which goes against Misplaced Pages's policy to not favor a particular information about the minorities or push the article to display a certain view about the minorities in the country. Your argument that the map should be removed just because you find it POV is rather disturbing, means that you have not understood a basic rule of Misplaced Pages which is the WP:NOS which clearly states that reliable sources may be non-neutral: a source's reputation for fact-checking is not inherently dependent upon its point of view.
- Like I said, and I hate repeating myself many times: you can add different views from reliable sources and you have my wholeheart support for this, but I firmly disagree with the replacement or removal of information/views that do not suit your POV. -- SILENTRESIDENT 12:07, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- I am all fine for making a new map to replace this one. As for "Misplaced Pages in fact favors representing all views regarding a matter" that is true if its based on solid sources. As the policy WP:AEIS states: "Misplaced Pages articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources. Articles may make an analytic, evaluative, interpretive, or synthetic claim only if that has been published by a reliable secondary source." The above map uses two such sources (omits part of their content i.e Winnifrith is used only for the Vlachs etc, and then uses other non reliable sources to make far reaching and POV claims (Le Monde etc). Have a look at the sources used and compare it with the policy you cited to me and see if they add up. Then come back to me. I am about being precise.Resnjari (talk) 12:15, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- For future reference both Le Monde Diplomatique and CIA are reliable and top graded sources. In case you make a new map you need take into account both of the above maps (personally speaking I dont believe that and the CIA could ever spread nonsense in serious confidential documents). Taking the above into account, I suggest to extent the Greek inhabited area slightly north (especially in se Albania) in order to be 100% precise per CIA & Monde Diplomatique. Best.Alexikoua (talk) 13:04, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- So wait, you want me to use a CIA document that is one a primary source document (and contravene Misplaced Pages policy) and a memorandum (not a report and the declassified document itself states). Wiki policy states clearly that secondary sources need to back it up, see: WP:AEIS). The Le Monde map has many reliability issues and scholarship does not back it up. On Sotiriadis, you still have not given a reply as to why that map was to be placed above all others like it from that era for the composition of the map you made. In the end its about being precise Alexikoua. Best.Resnjari (talk) 13:21, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- For future reference both Le Monde Diplomatique and CIA are reliable and top graded sources. In case you make a new map you need take into account both of the above maps (personally speaking I dont believe that and the CIA could ever spread nonsense in serious confidential documents). Taking the above into account, I suggest to extent the Greek inhabited area slightly north (especially in se Albania) in order to be 100% precise per CIA & Monde Diplomatique. Best.Alexikoua (talk) 13:04, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- I am all fine for making a new map to replace this one. As for "Misplaced Pages in fact favors representing all views regarding a matter" that is true if its based on solid sources. As the policy WP:AEIS states: "Misplaced Pages articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources. Articles may make an analytic, evaluative, interpretive, or synthetic claim only if that has been published by a reliable secondary source." The above map uses two such sources (omits part of their content i.e Winnifrith is used only for the Vlachs etc, and then uses other non reliable sources to make far reaching and POV claims (Le Monde etc). Have a look at the sources used and compare it with the policy you cited to me and see if they add up. Then come back to me. I am about being precise.Resnjari (talk) 12:15, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- Wait Le Monde overrides wp:secondary and wp:reliable Winnifrith, Kokolakkis, Psomas and Kallivretakis. Your serious right ? Le Monde makes a claim that the hatched area in orange is "Zones a majorite grecque" or Greek majority zones, not sure though what their basis is as they don't give one. Even though they cover Kolonje part of the Korca area, Gjirokaster, Saranda and the Himara area they still don't go as far as you do in your map, not even Sotiriadis (Just out of curiosity since you stand by Le Monde maps, they have a ethnic map of Macedonia. In that they colour even Greek Prespa as being Albanian ? Are they correct there ? ). In your map you have also coloured areas that have a Muslim Albanian population where no Christian populations reside or have affiliated with Greek identity in a late 19th century or early 20th century context, since you refer to traditional. The spread of Greek in the map regarding Greek identity is a little bit off here. Why do you have a separate Vlach category then, considering they identified as Greeks traditionally both in the late 19th and early 20th century and once again. Shouldn't they be Greek? If you have them separate then should areas were Orthodox Albanians (or Orthodox Albanian speakers for those who might be offended in calling them Albanians) reside not be coloured as Greek as its POV? Because what of the Orthodox Albanians, do they exist in this framework ? As you refer to traditional, what do you mean by Greek (is it in terms of identity/religious affiliation, being Greek speaking, both or other)? Or is this being selective. Also lets work out some things here. Why is Sotiriadis chosen as a map to base your map on when there is a multitude of other such maps showing different distributions? Have you vetted Sotiriadis? I have, but i will wait on a reply from you. Also the CIA report was published in 1994. Winnifrith which you have used in your map is from 1999 and in no way covers the area of the CIA map as Greek. Kokolakis shows a similar thing in the late 19th/early20th century to Winnifrith, Psomas refers to the issues of Orthodox Albanians being between Hellenism and Albanianism. Kallivretakis also confines Greeks to a southerly region similar to Albanian sources based on his fieldwork. Funny that. By the way, the CIA intelligence memorandum is a primary document. Using them has issues, see: WP:PRIMARY where it states that "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation." Resnjari (talk) 10:59, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- What a nonsense. You are asking to replace the map's sources with different ones, not to fix it. Please, enough with your POV. -- SILENTRESIDENT 10:02, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- I am not going to remove it. I want to know who is going to put the hard effort into fixing it. If Alexikoua wants to do it, fine. He will need to use google maps and soviet military maps giving precise location of settlements alongside the material. None of this roughly its here type thing (like i pointed out with the Narta issue and other places too). Also i have a lot of stuff for him to read then, some in German in relation to Slavic speaking minorities on fieldwork done recently. There is a lot out there. Best.Resnjari (talk) 09:28, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- I have heaps. Thing is about the editor who composed the map, not sure if he going to make the changes. Or should i ?
- This again is just your OPINION. Nothing more, nothing less. I do not know the reason the scholars focused on some minorities and not on others. But this does not mean you can dispute and question their work on the grounds that "not every minority or community is included". A work is just a work - it may contain more information about one subject and lack about another subject. This does not make it biased. A scholar may not provide all the information you seek - hence why in Misplaced Pages we cite multiple sources from multiple scholars to present all possible information and cover everything - i.e. the minorities in our case here.
- I am not missing the point, nor am i citing the official Albanian government census. Its about accuracy, its about being precise. I am referring to scholarship, i.e content based on facts. The Jewish community is highlighted in urban areas and a source is used for that. Ok, fine, but what of the Romani ? They are in the many tens of thousands in Albania and there is much written on that to the point that even the UN has a database for that ! How do you explain their omission from the map ? What about the Gorani, much written on that and i can go on with this. As for a particular community being of interest to scholars, they all are. All it takes is to look up something. There are guidelines on this, i.e: WP:DISPUTED. The onus is on you to show that the map is not WP:POVPUSH. This map needs a overhaul.Resnjari (talk) 08:36, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- L' M. Diplomatique is a top graded source and the specific article of it fits wp:SECONDARY and ACADEMIC. I don't know what you mean that 'it has issues'. The CIA paper can be hardly considered as beeing unreliable. In general I see no issues. However some minor scale redrawing may be fine. As far I know we once aggreed in the past in the correspondent section in Northern Epirus article, so I really wonder what made you change your opinion ( ] even the text you aggreed defines this region in detail).Alexikoua (talk) 14:39, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
We agreed in the Northern Epirus article ? When did this happen ? On the CIA source, it is a declassified memorandum (it states that on the document itself) and is wp:primary. Wikileaks has heaps of content like that. If using that there is ok, i can use heaps of American intelligence on the Albania-Greece relation article. In 2015 once you said to me that primary sources are not to be used. The same hold trues here of this source. On the L' M. Diplomatique, why is it in contradiction of the scholarship ? Please locate for me at least peer reviewed sourcea that substantiates that Albanians are only 30%-50% of the population in the Korca, Kolonja, Gjirokaster and Saranda areas and that there is high numbers of Greeks there ? You still have not offered an explanation and instead just saying this is it, accept it. You recently placed a POV tag for a peer reviewed source which was not to your liking about is being " typical ultranationalistic Albanian pov" . How can i be certain that that map has not recycled typical ultranationalistic Greek pov from Vorio Epirot lobbies, Greek right wing groups wanting to 'liberate' the area etc? I ask because that map contradicts, three in depth Greek peer reviewed sources by Kallivretakis, Psomas and Kokolakkis. Give me sources so then i desist. Also you have not explained why Sotiriadis is the map to base part of the map data on?Resnjari (talk) 07:30, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- Resnjari's complaints have raised my suspicion because I clearly remembered this map staying here unchallenged for a very long time without Resnjari ever complaining about it before. And thus, I conducted now a small investigation on the map's prior removal and Resnjari's unexpected reactions to its recovery: I found that the map was in fact removed recently by a disruptive editor, Iaof2017, notorious for his problematic and unecyclopedic edits on various other Albanian articles, where editors again warned him for similar changes. Guess how this editor removed the sourced map: he disguised it as "Spelling Checks" and he has failed to provide any explanation for the removal of reliable and sourced material. Here we go: . But history log also shows that the unexplained removal of reliable and sourced content is not the only problem: cc violations and other issues too are found in there. Thankfully Dr.K. and Alexikoua spotted this editor in time before it got worse, with Dr.K. even warning him on his Talk for cc problems his edits have caused to the page: . It baffles me how Resnjari, given that he never complained about this map before (prior to its removal by Iaof2017) either here on Albania or on Northern Epirus, in all of sudden, objects to the map's restoration. Such behaviors will not be tolerated. I recommend that Resnjari drops the stick and slowly backs off before this gets worse.
- EDIT: Given this POV claim incident here, I will be doing further investigation on other Balkan-related articles and will highlight possible problems on their relevant talk pages and will be watching more closely the developments in there. Regards, -- SILENTRESIDENT 16:32, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- Suspicions ? The map was challenged by me because i have the sources now and feel confident in raising the points i have made as before i did not not have the data within my possession. The sources should guide the discussion, not the editor or personal of views of an editor by other editors. I hope your not making indirect intimidation or other with your comments of "before this gets worse" and trying to stifle editing of other editors by saying that "behaviors will not be tolerated". See wp:civil and wp:harass for more.Resnjari (talk) 07:30, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
(unindent) There is absolutely nothing wrong or POV with the map. There is no requirement that maps be sourced to 20 different sources (which would be impossible). Even one source is sufficient, provided it is good enough. Second, Le Monde Diplomatique is a rock solid source, as good as we can hope for. Any arguments as to why it does not meet WP:RS cannot be taken seriously. This whole "there aren't enough sources AND they are not good enough" has a whiff of "the food at this restaurant sucks AND the portions are too small!". Furthermore, the map does not claim that Greeks are a majority in the blue region, only that it shows area where there are Greeks and other minorities. And in that respect, it is 100% accurate. As far as the Roma, we all know that Roma are scattered all over the place, and they are moreover nomadic, so it's impossible to show them on a map (even the Romani people article doesn't have maps showing precise locations of Roma communities. And even if that weren't true, that would still be not a reason to remove the map. On the other hand, if we want to look at inaccurate and POV maps, the map based on the Albanian census, now that's definitely POV and needs to go (see below). Athenean (talk) 00:24, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
- The data exists. If an editor makes a map purporting to be about ethnic minorities and so on, they should make an effort to do an extensive search before making claims that the map represents the traditional space of minorities. As for finding 20 sources, you would surprised what one can find out there by doing a simple google books and google scholar search within the first few minutes. By the way the claim that the Romani cannot be ascertained for is bogus. The UN has a detailed database listing where the Romani are in Albania. Data exists. If one makes a map claiming to represent the space of traditional minorities they should find out how many minorities are and info firstly to at least say i made an attempt to cover that. The mapmaker has not even said that to me thus far. What of the Gorani, the Bosniaks etc etc? Why are a few hundred Jews shown who are an urban minority like the bulk of the Romani, but the Romani are difficult to show ? The map is inaccurate. Also the map in question follows the traditional Northern Epirus line of claim by Greeks that neither of sources used show. The map maker himself has noted shortcomings in the above comments which you sideline.Resnjari (talk) 07:30, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- What's important in the case of Greeks is that the map is supported by a variety of sources both SECONDARY and ACADEMIC. A traditional Greek presense is recorded in this region, thus there is nothing more to do about it. About the Gorani/Roma presence I'm still waiting for the correspondent material (maps) to make the appropriate adjustments.Alexikoua (talk) 08:57, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, which ones? Certainly not Kallivretakis, Psomas or Kokolakkis. I am still waiting for the "variety of sources both SECONDARY and ACADEMIC"? Also wasn't sure if you are going to make adjustments on your map ? I started making a new one on a bigger map template than the small one you used. I provided the UN data on the Roma in the above UN link. Also for a more abbreviated statistics see page xxiv by De Soto who was on the team who compiled the UN database , in terms of numbers as being a big minority (as some in here have expressed that the Romani are insignificant). On Muslim Slavic speaking minorities see Islam in Albania#Ethno-linguistic composition. There i have placed multiple sources and inlines from recent peer reviewed studies as a starting off point and some of those sources have online links to other material.Resnjari (talk) 09:14, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- Actually Kallivretakis, Psomas and Kokkolakis do not contradict this map. For example Kallivretakis simply states that there must be not significant Greek population outside of the area of his study. Kokkolakis' research is about Yannina Vilayet (i.e. Korce, isn't part of this Vilayet).Alexikoua (talk) 09:31, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- True Kallivretakis states this. However he also does not depict areas which you have depicted as Greek being Greek. And gives a village by village breakdown. He also notes that Greek sources considered Orthodox Albanians as Greeks or Albanian speaking Greeks. What is your map inferring then? Is it supporting that position ? Psomas in his study does not support your map and goes into the reasons. He states that the region had an Albanian speaking majority with Orthodox Albanians that overwhelmingly had a pro-Greek outlook and that Greek speaking Greeks were little to be found north of the Vjosa apart from being in Korca. The change of outlook occurs with the placement of the border, return of Orthodox Albanian immigrants with an Albanian outlook etc etc. Kokkolakis study takes in two thirds of the area which you have shown as Greek on your map. You have used Sotiriadis, how is that accurate ?Resnjari (talk) 09:41, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- I fail to see any map in the works of Psomas, Kallivretakis, Kokolakis. What I've stated is that they did not dismiss this map, for example Kallivretakis doesn't claim that no "Greek soul" exists in Korce/Permet etc.. In general the map isn't my imagination and it's based on maps presented by wp:SECONDARY, ACADEMIC (Diplomatique etc.).Alexikoua (talk) 12:24, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- There is, in Kokolakis. Consult the source and you will come across it. Page numbers on that one are 53-56 and info on map is pp. 370-371 and the map itself is p. 374. Kallivretakis, a source which i came by through you (so you are more than familiar with) and gives a very thorough list for the Gjirokaster, Saranda districts and also the Himara area. He looked at the details of past sources and concludes it is the same ethno-linguistic situation in most areas, separate to urbanisation and emergence on a handful of new villages etc and notes this on p.35 directly contradicting the Le Monde map. Also Kallivretakis does not claim that there are no members of the Greek minority in urban centres or other places. If anything your map misses Greeks found in Tirana, Durres, those north in Shkoder due to eoloyment migration during communism and Enver's (forced) relocations etc as per Berxholi, Protopapa and Prifti , pp: 430-431. The way you can go about that on your map (as all urban centres have Albanian majorities) is to have the city name and then in brackets underneath have a symbol like the blue coloured G for Greeks, say Green ? S/M for Serbs Montenegrins, Purple ? R for the Romani, Red ? A for Aromanians etc. You need a bigger map template. On Psomas (its the whole thing, but) see pp. 238, 240-242, 243-244, 247-249, 250-251, 252, 253-260, 261-283. The Le Monde map is in direct contradiction of all three Greek academic sources and you still have not backed it up showing that is based on wp:secondary and wp:reliable. Its about being precise.Resnjari (talk) 13:10, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- I fail to see any map in the works of Psomas, Kallivretakis, Kokolakis. What I've stated is that they did not dismiss this map, for example Kallivretakis doesn't claim that no "Greek soul" exists in Korce/Permet etc.. In general the map isn't my imagination and it's based on maps presented by wp:SECONDARY, ACADEMIC (Diplomatique etc.).Alexikoua (talk) 12:24, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- True Kallivretakis states this. However he also does not depict areas which you have depicted as Greek being Greek. And gives a village by village breakdown. He also notes that Greek sources considered Orthodox Albanians as Greeks or Albanian speaking Greeks. What is your map inferring then? Is it supporting that position ? Psomas in his study does not support your map and goes into the reasons. He states that the region had an Albanian speaking majority with Orthodox Albanians that overwhelmingly had a pro-Greek outlook and that Greek speaking Greeks were little to be found north of the Vjosa apart from being in Korca. The change of outlook occurs with the placement of the border, return of Orthodox Albanian immigrants with an Albanian outlook etc etc. Kokkolakis study takes in two thirds of the area which you have shown as Greek on your map. You have used Sotiriadis, how is that accurate ?Resnjari (talk) 09:41, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- Actually Kallivretakis, Psomas and Kokkolakis do not contradict this map. For example Kallivretakis simply states that there must be not significant Greek population outside of the area of his study. Kokkolakis' research is about Yannina Vilayet (i.e. Korce, isn't part of this Vilayet).Alexikoua (talk) 09:31, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, which ones? Certainly not Kallivretakis, Psomas or Kokolakkis. I am still waiting for the "variety of sources both SECONDARY and ACADEMIC"? Also wasn't sure if you are going to make adjustments on your map ? I started making a new one on a bigger map template than the small one you used. I provided the UN data on the Roma in the above UN link. Also for a more abbreviated statistics see page xxiv by De Soto who was on the team who compiled the UN database , in terms of numbers as being a big minority (as some in here have expressed that the Romani are insignificant). On Muslim Slavic speaking minorities see Islam in Albania#Ethno-linguistic composition. There i have placed multiple sources and inlines from recent peer reviewed studies as a starting off point and some of those sources have online links to other material.Resnjari (talk) 09:14, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- What's important in the case of Greeks is that the map is supported by a variety of sources both SECONDARY and ACADEMIC. A traditional Greek presense is recorded in this region, thus there is nothing more to do about it. About the Gorani/Roma presence I'm still waiting for the correspondent material (maps) to make the appropriate adjustments.Alexikoua (talk) 08:57, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- The data exists. If an editor makes a map purporting to be about ethnic minorities and so on, they should make an effort to do an extensive search before making claims that the map represents the traditional space of minorities. As for finding 20 sources, you would surprised what one can find out there by doing a simple google books and google scholar search within the first few minutes. By the way the claim that the Romani cannot be ascertained for is bogus. The UN has a detailed database listing where the Romani are in Albania. Data exists. If one makes a map claiming to represent the space of traditional minorities they should find out how many minorities are and info firstly to at least say i made an attempt to cover that. The mapmaker has not even said that to me thus far. What of the Gorani, the Bosniaks etc etc? Why are a few hundred Jews shown who are an urban minority like the bulk of the Romani, but the Romani are difficult to show ? The map is inaccurate. Also the map in question follows the traditional Northern Epirus line of claim by Greeks that neither of sources used show. The map maker himself has noted shortcomings in the above comments which you sideline.Resnjari (talk) 07:30, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
(unindent) Le Monde Diplos is WP:RS. If you feel it isn't you can go to WP:RSN, but be prepared to be disappointed. No one is claiming Greeks are a majority in the highlighted areas, only a "presence", so no one is contradicting anyone. And the sources you mention only cover a small area, not the whole of Albania. If we were to combine them to produce a map, that would be WP:SYNTH. Khirurg (talk) 16:30, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- Have a look at the Le Monde map, it claims that Albanians in the Korca, Kolonja, Gjirokaster and Saranda districts are between 30-50% of the population. Who makes up the other 50% considering it has hatched lines for a Greek presence? Apart from the Greek sources their are other academics who have traversed the country and given assessments . As for my sources they don't contradict and are wp:secondary and wp:reliable. Many maps on Misplaced Pages combine sources as long as they are reliable and steeped in the scholarship. Otherwise so many maps would not exist on Misplaced Pages. Also if we go by your rationale, Alexikoua's map is already WP:SYNTH using 5 sources that have been combined (with claims it purports to show some kind of accurate picture of the state of things). Would that mean that it warrants removal for being WP:SYNTH? In the end that mapp will go to WP:RSN. I am just seeing were the discussion will go, as per policy before i take it further.Resnjari (talk) 19:15, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- After checking Kallivretakis carefully I admit that he virtually agrees with this map: By saying that the Greek population in Permet and Korca must not be significant he off course can not mean that it's non existent. I also note that Le Monde map is accepted in bibliography, for example: ] in p. 1617, that agrees with the specific area.Alexikoua (talk) 21:21, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- On the Russian journal, it also has a map of the 4 Albanian vilayets, a similar map which you recently deleted from the Albania page . I take it one map is ok, but the other is not ? Also that particular article is noted for being an editorial and also it does not list references nor acknowledge its sources for where it even got its images. Peer reviewed journals do this. Heck even Misplaced Pages does this and is strict on this. On the about page, it says it was formed by political analysts and freelance bloggers. Peer reviewed journals only accept content by scholars (for the humanities for example: historians, sociologists, linguists, anthropologists etc) and not freelance bloggers. Those scholars may blog, but those pieces do not go into a journal. This this an opinion piece? Also the person who wrote that particular article is Andrew Korybko who works for Sputnik agency . The issue of Sputnik being a reliable source has already been called into question on Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 205#Sputnik_News for being a Russian government mouth piece. I have seen you be very strict and dismissive of other sources in past times for having less issues than this. In the policy article on wp:secondary, it does say "Information in an article must be verifiable in the references cited." On the other source, apart from not being able to see what that map was based on, it makes the claims that areas inhabited compactly by the Greeks minority (Dropull, Pogon, Vurg) are mixed with Albanians. ??? Albanians don't inhabit those areas and the map is already POV pushing. Kallivretakis fieldwork refutes this (so does Winnfrith, p.192) and Psomas backs Kallivretakis findings many years later). The map also excludes the Himara area of having Greeks. Kind of weird, no ? It also makes the hatched line go up Albanian Prespa inhabited by Macedonians. ??? There are other problems with the map. It shows the area of Ohrid and Eastern Macedonian Prespa as being mixed with Albanians where once again there are no Albanians in the villages and in Ohrid city and Resen town they are a minority. Prespa Albanian villages are in the east and scattered in the area shown as Macedonian. It shows the Brodec municipality as being ethnically mixed with Turks which is false. Macedonian speaking villagers who have declared themselves as Turks in census are in Plasnica town and clustered around it through a few villages to the south of that municipality. It omits Albanians of the Kumanovo region (Lipkovo area) and the Karshiaka (below Skopje) where they are compact, have their municipalities. It omits significant Serbian majority/clusters areas in Kosovo, separate to the north, etc etc. Kallivretakis does not refer to villages, but cities, in line with Berxholli source. Nitsiakos did fieldwork in Greek villages of the Permet area. The map still shows areas way out of that zone as being Greek or having Greeks.Resnjari (talk) 10:03, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
- Also note, the map is very small, so we cannot possibly show individual towns, let alone villages. Saying "oh, it doesn't show that these and these villages are Albanian, therefore it needs to be removed" is highly disingenuous. These sound like excuses to remove the map. At the end of the day, Le Monde Diplomatique is 100% reliable. Your opinions about their map being inaccurate are irrelevant. You can always email them though, see what they say. Khirurg (talk) 21:30, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- Its showing areas that not even the Greek state itself in its official view of the demography of the area in 1919 viewed as Greek, i.e Albanian Muslim villages. Its not disingenuous and its about being precise. I placed Greek sources that meet proper scholarship criteria in my above posts. Misplaced Pages is a encyclopedic project and content needs to reflect the polices of wp:reliable and secondary. Otherwise if its a free for all then one can plonk anything here or in other places such as making a map on Greece's demographics showing this that or the other based on problematic sources. That the map template use is small is another issue. Needs to be bigger for accuracy.Resnjari (talk) 10:03, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
- It would also be much more helpful if you made a bulleted list of specific changes you want made to the map, so that we can then discuss them. "The map is POV" is not very helpful. Khirurg (talk) 21:55, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- Making a bulleted list is a good idea. Will do over next few days due to complexity of subject matter for whoever makes a map. Best.Resnjari (talk) 10:03, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
- After checking Kallivretakis carefully I admit that he virtually agrees with this map: By saying that the Greek population in Permet and Korca must not be significant he off course can not mean that it's non existent. I also note that Le Monde map is accepted in bibliography, for example: ] in p. 1617, that agrees with the specific area.Alexikoua (talk) 21:21, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- Have a look at the Le Monde map, it claims that Albanians in the Korca, Kolonja, Gjirokaster and Saranda districts are between 30-50% of the population. Who makes up the other 50% considering it has hatched lines for a Greek presence? Apart from the Greek sources their are other academics who have traversed the country and given assessments . As for my sources they don't contradict and are wp:secondary and wp:reliable. Many maps on Misplaced Pages combine sources as long as they are reliable and steeped in the scholarship. Otherwise so many maps would not exist on Misplaced Pages. Also if we go by your rationale, Alexikoua's map is already WP:SYNTH using 5 sources that have been combined (with claims it purports to show some kind of accurate picture of the state of things). Would that mean that it warrants removal for being WP:SYNTH? In the end that mapp will go to WP:RSN. I am just seeing were the discussion will go, as per policy before i take it further.Resnjari (talk) 19:15, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Albanian census map
This map is based on nothing more than the Albanian census, so as such it is POV. Second, the Albanian government has a history of suppressing minority numbers (easily sourced), and is not WP:RS. Third, the census was boycotted by minorities, which makes any maps based on it worthless. And lastly, the map does not show important minority areas like Himara. As such, it needs to go. Athenean (talk) 00:28, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
- Hi Khirurg. Not sure if your a new editor or a returning one after a long absence. Its a map of the Albanian census and in the article it refers to it being Albanian state's point of view and also the article contains info about that being problematic. The Greek state has census data that does not count linguistic minorities and has been noted in scholarship. That data however has been used in Misplaced Pages. If we uses your rationale, then that stuff goes too as there is Western scholarship for example on the ethnic Macedonian community for instance that could fill much of the void etc etc.Resnjari (talk) 07:30, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- Actually the map of the 2011 census is just a map of the "2011 census". What's important here is that it is a ethnographic reflection/depiction since it shows the results of a highly despited census. Apart from Himara, even regions that have recognised by the Albanian government non-Albanian majorities (Aliko for example) appear as predominantly Albanian. This map will be fine for the corrsepondent section of "Demographics of Albania", but it's not hepfull for this article (It's like having a similar map of the disbuted census of the R.o.Mac. in the country article too). Alexikoua (talk) 09:04, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- The map is done according to district and not individual villages. The district where the Greek village Aliko is located is highlighted as having an Albanian plurality (due to the big Albanian village of Ksmail) still meaning other ethnicities are there. A similar thing in reverse with a nearby district that is coloured Greek due to some Greek villages being there but has villages that are Orthodox Albanian: Mursi, Sopik, Xarra, or Muslim Albanian, i.e Vrina etc and all get coloured as Greek (the majority population of the district). Your map is not organised by district. On Macedonia, the census of Macedonia was accepted by all sides in 2002. Nationalist Albanian circles have mainly voiced disquiet. Those idiots don't count. A Le Monde map also exists that has the interpretation of the demographics of Macedonia showing Ohrid a mainly Macedonian city as Albanian (wrong, dead wrong, only 2-3,000 albs), incorrectly shows the eastern coast of lake Ohrid and that half the Struga Drimkol area as Albanian (is Macedonian), all of Macedonian Prespa (and Greek Prespa) as Albanian when there are only a few Albanian villages on the eastern lakeside , omits concentrated Albanian settlement of the Karshiaka mountainous region below Skopje depicting it as Macedonian.. That's one of the reasons why i call into question Le Monde maps as reliable.Resnjari (talk) 09:33, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- I wonder what do you mean my map is not organized by district? I assume you mean L. Diplomatique's map. Aliko is a representative case of why the data of this census are highly disputed (the argument that the only Albanian village of the Aliko outnumbers all the reast is wp:OR), and this is stated by several UN, EU and other international organizations (as well as wp:ACADEMIC and SENCODARY). If this map stays its caption should strees that this census was disputed (the text already states that).Alexikoua (talk) 15:04, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- I am fine with that as that is fact. On Aliko Kallivretkis' data bears that out. Its a small district with a few villages of which Ksmail is the biggest. Anyway on your map, what are the wp:ACADEMIC and SECONDARY sources to back the L. Diplomatique map (as i gave you a reply in my above posts with sources and page numbers)?Resnjari (talk) 15:14, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- I wonder what do you mean my map is not organized by district? I assume you mean L. Diplomatique's map. Aliko is a representative case of why the data of this census are highly disputed (the argument that the only Albanian village of the Aliko outnumbers all the reast is wp:OR), and this is stated by several UN, EU and other international organizations (as well as wp:ACADEMIC and SENCODARY). If this map stays its caption should strees that this census was disputed (the text already states that).Alexikoua (talk) 15:04, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- The map is done according to district and not individual villages. The district where the Greek village Aliko is located is highlighted as having an Albanian plurality (due to the big Albanian village of Ksmail) still meaning other ethnicities are there. A similar thing in reverse with a nearby district that is coloured Greek due to some Greek villages being there but has villages that are Orthodox Albanian: Mursi, Sopik, Xarra, or Muslim Albanian, i.e Vrina etc and all get coloured as Greek (the majority population of the district). Your map is not organised by district. On Macedonia, the census of Macedonia was accepted by all sides in 2002. Nationalist Albanian circles have mainly voiced disquiet. Those idiots don't count. A Le Monde map also exists that has the interpretation of the demographics of Macedonia showing Ohrid a mainly Macedonian city as Albanian (wrong, dead wrong, only 2-3,000 albs), incorrectly shows the eastern coast of lake Ohrid and that half the Struga Drimkol area as Albanian (is Macedonian), all of Macedonian Prespa (and Greek Prespa) as Albanian when there are only a few Albanian villages on the eastern lakeside , omits concentrated Albanian settlement of the Karshiaka mountainous region below Skopje depicting it as Macedonian.. That's one of the reasons why i call into question Le Monde maps as reliable.Resnjari (talk) 09:33, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- Actually the map of the 2011 census is just a map of the "2011 census". What's important here is that it is a ethnographic reflection/depiction since it shows the results of a highly despited census. Apart from Himara, even regions that have recognised by the Albanian government non-Albanian majorities (Aliko for example) appear as predominantly Albanian. This map will be fine for the corrsepondent section of "Demographics of Albania", but it's not hepfull for this article (It's like having a similar map of the disbuted census of the R.o.Mac. in the country article too). Alexikoua (talk) 09:04, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- It's interesting, at Dance of Osman Taka, you have been presented with evidence that the source you are using is erroneous, yet you keep repeating yourself that your source is reliable. Here, you have been presented with evidence that the Albanian government census has been boycotted by minorities, and yet you insist on using it. Khirurg (talk) 17:44, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- Kind of wondering are you a new editor or returning one since you seem to be experienced. You sound familiar like someone from the past. In any case I refer you to the policy: WP:HOUNDING as you have not participated in that discussion. At the Osman Taka page the sources say what they say i have gone by them. And those sources don't contradict the other sources brought forth that where claimed to disavow the previous ones. If anything they make my point than the previous ones. On this, I accept the census was problematic as the Albanian government did not allow people to fully declare themselves. It was in relation to mainly Vlachs and Orthodox Albanians of which a sizable amount who have pro-Greek sentiments. The census map is the government view and an editor addressed the matter by placing a disclaimer which i have no qualms about. Many Balkan censuses have issues like the Greek one which does not allow ethnic Turks to declare themselves as such and forces people to only declare as Muslims. Yet Greek government numbers are cited in Wiki articles citing those issues with a disclaimer.Resnjari (talk) 19:15, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- It's interesting, at Dance of Osman Taka, you have been presented with evidence that the source you are using is erroneous, yet you keep repeating yourself that your source is reliable. Here, you have been presented with evidence that the Albanian government census has been boycotted by minorities, and yet you insist on using it. Khirurg (talk) 17:44, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
(unindent) No, the Albanian census map is completely worthless, disclaimer or not. If you feel hounded, there's always ANI. Khirurg (talk) 21:26, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- The Albanian census results might be worthless to you (others may say the same thing of Greek numbers), but is the state's view. I am not disputing, nor others here that it was problematic and disputed. On the other matter it was in relation to making comments about Osman Taka out of the blue when you have not participated in that discussion or Misplaced Pages in general for more than a month. I also was not sure if you were a returning editor or not until i clicked your main Wiki page.Resnjari (talk) 10:03, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
- I do not know if you have realized this, but referring solely on the official census or the unofficial estimations is the wrong way to go. The official census has been problematic, and the unofficial estimes are just that - estimes. Nothing more. Albania's census by no means can be trusted and considered a reliable source of pop information, because the censuses in the country have been very problematic since the communist era. And it is not me who says this, but the human rights organizations and especially the Council of Europe which regarded the 2011 Albanian census as unreliable and inaccurate. I don't know if you are aware of that, but as a matter of fact, Albania is the only European country which in the latest census, still fined its citizens to pay leva for declaring a different nationality - no other country ever does that in Europe, not even Turkey or Bosnia and Herzegovina, where problems with their censuses have been reported.
- My position is that the 2011 Albanian census should be taken with a grain of salt and rather have both sources - both official and unofficial ones from abroad - referenced for a more complete picture of the situation in the country. -- SILENTRESIDENT 10:35, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
- I would be the first to say that using Albanian census data for the type of map that Alexikoua has made or similar should not be done. Apart from the Albanian government placing suppression orders (i.e a fine for people declaring some other identity other than the Alb. government deemed to be 'not correct'. The fines where done in relation to Vlachs and Orthodox Albanians and concerns that some number will declare as Greeks.), some ethno-linguistic communities also declared themselves Albanians in the census while on a day to day basis they have other ethnic/linguistic identities too. Cases in point are the region of Golloborda and the large Muslim Macedonian speaking population there, the Gorani of the Albanian Gora area, the Podgoricani, Serbian/Montenegrin speaking Muslims of the Vraka area, the Bosniaks of the Shijak region etc etc. Studies exist whereby scholars have gone to settlements spent much time with the people and cited the areas they inhabited (like Thede Kahl's extensive survey of Vlachs Kallivretakis on the Greeks in Albania, etc). Even the UN got in on the gig by doing a massive study of the Romani. In some countries, Balkan censuses are problematic. Albania, Kosovo, Greece, Turkey, Bosnia etc. The Albanian census map is the official position of the Albanian government. The article is about Albania after all. Throughout wiki government numbers are used and if problematic it is also cited with a disclaimer offered as was done by Alexikoua of which i have no qualms about. Best.Resnjari (talk) 13:06, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
- It seems that as an editor you are failing terribly bad to understand the basic difference between facts and opinions, like how you have done in the Cham Albanians and dance articles. Misplaced Pages does not rely on editorial opinions but on facts and only facts. You are justifying the fines the Albanian government imposed on its minorities (!) as if they can be justified and explained, and you are equalizing EU member state censuses such as Greece's (which international organizations such as UN and Council of Europe found reliable and valid) with the problematic ones of non-EU member countries (!) such as Albania's, and you are expecting us to sit and listen to you? Your opinions are just that: opinions. I will prefer the position of international and intergovernmental organizations on this matter, not your opinion. And if you ever try to remove the pop estimes and replace them with unreliable and disputed censuses which the international organizations found riddled with serious problems, your edits will simply be reverted. Now if you excuse me, I am not interested to ever understand the reasons the Albanian government resorted to such shameful practices of finining its own citizens, a practice which today is seen only outside of Europe, in dictatorships of Africa and Asia. -- SILENTRESIDENT 09:40, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
- This kind of wording like: "And if you ever try to remove the pop estimes and replace them with unreliable and disputed censuses" are more on the intimidation and threats side. Once again a reminder of the Wiki policies when interacting with other editors regarding being wp:civil and wp:harass. On the Albanian census i outlined my views. On other articles my commentary regarding the Chams may not be to your liking (as you have expressed the view of "traitorous" ) and frankly i don't care about your personal views of my abilities to "understand the basic difference between facts and opinions". One could say that of certain editors on Wiki. Facts when it suits them, but fiction when it does not. As i have told many a Greek editor those are your personal reflections which Misplaced Pages policies states have no place here regarding a editor. Only content and policy regarding content are the main issues going into a article. As for Greece's census being acceptable, please the human rights watch reports etc, not to mention scholarly critique such as on the Turks being denied to freely express themselves as Turks is one example. Just because a country is in the EU does not mean they live up to all of the rules or standards. Greece showed this quite prominently with its financial system collapsing (another example).Resnjari (talk) 11:29, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
- It seems that as an editor you are failing terribly bad to understand the basic difference between facts and opinions, like how you have done in the Cham Albanians and dance articles. Misplaced Pages does not rely on editorial opinions but on facts and only facts. You are justifying the fines the Albanian government imposed on its minorities (!) as if they can be justified and explained, and you are equalizing EU member state censuses such as Greece's (which international organizations such as UN and Council of Europe found reliable and valid) with the problematic ones of non-EU member countries (!) such as Albania's, and you are expecting us to sit and listen to you? Your opinions are just that: opinions. I will prefer the position of international and intergovernmental organizations on this matter, not your opinion. And if you ever try to remove the pop estimes and replace them with unreliable and disputed censuses which the international organizations found riddled with serious problems, your edits will simply be reverted. Now if you excuse me, I am not interested to ever understand the reasons the Albanian government resorted to such shameful practices of finining its own citizens, a practice which today is seen only outside of Europe, in dictatorships of Africa and Asia. -- SILENTRESIDENT 09:40, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
- I would be the first to say that using Albanian census data for the type of map that Alexikoua has made or similar should not be done. Apart from the Albanian government placing suppression orders (i.e a fine for people declaring some other identity other than the Alb. government deemed to be 'not correct'. The fines where done in relation to Vlachs and Orthodox Albanians and concerns that some number will declare as Greeks.), some ethno-linguistic communities also declared themselves Albanians in the census while on a day to day basis they have other ethnic/linguistic identities too. Cases in point are the region of Golloborda and the large Muslim Macedonian speaking population there, the Gorani of the Albanian Gora area, the Podgoricani, Serbian/Montenegrin speaking Muslims of the Vraka area, the Bosniaks of the Shijak region etc etc. Studies exist whereby scholars have gone to settlements spent much time with the people and cited the areas they inhabited (like Thede Kahl's extensive survey of Vlachs Kallivretakis on the Greeks in Albania, etc). Even the UN got in on the gig by doing a massive study of the Romani. In some countries, Balkan censuses are problematic. Albania, Kosovo, Greece, Turkey, Bosnia etc. The Albanian census map is the official position of the Albanian government. The article is about Albania after all. Throughout wiki government numbers are used and if problematic it is also cited with a disclaimer offered as was done by Alexikoua of which i have no qualms about. Best.Resnjari (talk) 13:06, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
If my memory does not fail me, the other editor have warned you that manipulation of sources goes against Misplaced Pages's policies, but it seems you are doing it again now, this time with manipulation of... facts? Please. Not the facts too. This is too much and only shows how your arguments lack credibility.
if what you are trying to do is to convince me, then I am afraid this isn't working. I myself have participated in the Census progress in two different countries, both Greece and abroad, and I know beforehand about these matters. From experience I can tell how your arguments are problematic are, at best. You are claiming that: 1) Greece has denied the Turks their right to self-determination in the Greek census, and 2) the human right reports are about the Greek census, right? Well, sorry to say this, but you are completely wrong. If I didn't knew you better, I could say that certainly you are out of place in regards to the Censuses. But this does not help but raise concerns about whether you are really in position of contributing positively to the (problematic thus far) discussion regarding the Albanian Census, at least without making false claims and assumptions from which this discussion has suffered already due to lack of credible and valid arguments.
Let me correct you regarding the Greek census and the Turks of Thrace: first of all, the human right reports are not about the Greek census. Are about the self-determination of a group of people and their demand to be granted minority rights based on that. Period. The demands of the Turks of Thrace to be recognized with ethnic criteria instead of religious, should not be confused with the Greek census at all. In the Greek Census, ethnicity is not taken in account, only religion is, much like in most of the European Union member states. For example, in Italy, where an Albanian diaspora thrives, the Censuses do not inquire about race or ethnicity, and yet, this has nothing to do with Italy "trying to suppress ethnic self-determination of Albanians living in there" as you or any misinformed editors could probably assume. The censuses in the EU member states, including Greece and Italy, are conducted with the best practices and methodologies and are in accordance with Eurostat's standards and with the monitoring of international organizations and by no means can be considered problematic or unreliable. Nor the European governments fine the subjects like Albania does.
Confusing the Turkish demands for recognition based on ethnicity have nothing to do with Censuses. Since Greece follows a policy of treating all the communities currently living in its territory regardless of their ethnicity, it little matters for the state. All people of different communities in Greece are treated as Greek citizens. Even the migrants, as long as they have legal papers, have undertook the Greek education and have lived many years in the country. As citizens, everyone in Greece pays equal taxes to the state, regardless of ethnicity, race, religion or sexual orientation. Be them Albanians, Bulgarians, Turks, Serbians, Egyptians, Italians, Germans and Romanians, or even Gays and Muslims and Jews and Polytheists. Nothing more, nothing less. Now that certain ethnic groups such as some Turks want to be formally recognized as minorities, is a completely different thing and whether this can be achieved or not, falls within each state's discretion.
I highly recommend that you update yourself about these matters before making more false claims and mistakes which do not help in our discussion here; only are derailing it. if can you say anything better or more useful regarding the Albanian census, I will be glad to hear it, but if your goal here is to explain or justify the problematic Albanian censuses or equalize it with the census of western countries, then you are wasting, not just my time, but yours and everyone's here. The Albanian census and the estimes are both present on the page, and that is the best you can have. -- SILENTRESIDENT 13:52, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
- I have done census work in the country i live so i know the processes too. It still does not take away that in Greece a ethnic Turk cannot declare as a Turk, but only as a Muslim. Those human rights reports do refer to that issue and scholars who look at those issues. You also ay that ethnic identity is not concern of Greece and small ethno-linguistic communities who want to express that "falls within each state's discretion. (The same can be said of Albania's "discretion".)" The Turks demands for recongition has also to do with the census. How many from the Muslim community see themselves that way etc. In Albania everyone is regarded as equal citizens as per the constitution. The state does not want to count ethnicity numbers while outside powers and some communities internally have placed pressure on them, like the Turks do in Greece. As for "manipulation of the sources", please, that editor has examples of that if we want to go down that road. Many don't like me editing at all on Misplaced Pages. Thing is my account is older than yours, actually most of you (almost 10 years soon too). Been here, still will be here.Resnjari (talk) 14:09, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
- You are saying you have participated in a Census, yet you comments reflect a big failure to understand what censuses really are for. Censuses are not conducted for ethnic reasons or for race reasons. The censuses are conducted for national reasons. Census are a tool critical in collecting population data necessary for the better and more effective governance of a state in the fields of economy, agriculture, employment, education, religion and healthcare. You do not conduct census for ethnic reasons, and certainly you do not need a census to grant human rights to the people. The gays or the black people do not need a census for their freedoms to be respected. To claim that a Turk can only be Turk when a Census allows him so, is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. If the Turks could have their rights respected, is a matter of the Greek state's policies towards them, not a matter of... censuses.
- Furthermore, I do not know why Albania chose to permit declaration of ethnic origin in its 2011 census, but it could been much better for the Albanian state to just leave this option out than to ask the Albanian citizens for their ethnicity and then fine them if their answers are not what the Albanian authorities expected or wanted. This is just mere my opinion, but I guess Albania, unlike Italy, Greece and Turkey, is bound by international treaties to recognize ethnic minorities on its soil. Greece and Turkey on the other hand are bound to recognize and protect religious ones, as agreed in the Lausanne Treaty, which Greece respected fully and to the letter, while Turkey repeatedly has violated, which resulted to the two countries showing contradictory results on the population figures in their their latest censuses: according to the 2011 Greek census, the Muslim minority of Greece not only is still alive today but also has grown in numbers (see Muslim minority of Greece) while the Christian minority of Turkey not only didn't grew in numbers, but shrank too much that nowadays became almost extinct (see Istanbul Pogrom and Greeks in Turkey). Like I said: minorities are a matter of state policies regarding them, and not censuses. (and no, it is not the Turkish census that made Turkey the only country in Europe with less than 1% of its total population Christian, but the Turkish policies). Censuses are meant only to provide the state with an image of the population and its categories that interest the state in its policy-making. You should have knew that already if you really participated in a Census. Now if you excuse me, there is nothing more for me to say here, and certainly got better things to do than to talk about censuses and human rights all day. -- SILENTRESIDENT 15:10, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
- I agree that censuses are for the reasons outlined. Data on language end ethnicity are gathered by some governments whereby there is schooling or the need for public services to be rendered in another language. Turks want to be counted as Turks in Greece because that category is not a religious one. By counting them as Muslims, funding and services go toward (not always for) religious issues (schooling is covered) but not all issues. Its also a symbolic matter that the state recognises them in the designation they see themselves. Greece after all is a EU country with different standards to the others. Turkey's censuses are damned since well the beginning. The Kemalists have been hell bent on making everyone Turk and the AKP has pushed back on that a bit since they have been in power. The Kemalist structure though remains and until that dangerous tussle for power resolves itself one should not hold their breath for improvements any time soon. In Albania, most were against it especially counting religion. Berisha wanted it. He structured the census for declarations to be of any type. He was in a coalition with the PDIU and they said it was incumbent for him to impose a fine to prevent certain types of declarations otherwise they would let his government collapse. Berisha opposed for a while and then backed down.Resnjari (talk) 15:35, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
- I agree that not all Turks define themselves as Muslims. However those who don't, will have to live like every other normal citizen in Greece: learn the Greek language, serve the Greek army, pay the taxes to the state, and enjoy all services that the other citizens do - Greeks, Albanians, Italians, Jews, Egyptians, Bulgarians, Gays, Lesbians, etc, already do. There can not be a special treatment for people regarding their ethnicity in Greece, otherwise political equality ceases to exist. What I am saying is obvious.
- I agree that censuses are for the reasons outlined. Data on language end ethnicity are gathered by some governments whereby there is schooling or the need for public services to be rendered in another language. Turks want to be counted as Turks in Greece because that category is not a religious one. By counting them as Muslims, funding and services go toward (not always for) religious issues (schooling is covered) but not all issues. Its also a symbolic matter that the state recognises them in the designation they see themselves. Greece after all is a EU country with different standards to the others. Turkey's censuses are damned since well the beginning. The Kemalists have been hell bent on making everyone Turk and the AKP has pushed back on that a bit since they have been in power. The Kemalist structure though remains and until that dangerous tussle for power resolves itself one should not hold their breath for improvements any time soon. In Albania, most were against it especially counting religion. Berisha wanted it. He structured the census for declarations to be of any type. He was in a coalition with the PDIU and they said it was incumbent for him to impose a fine to prevent certain types of declarations otherwise they would let his government collapse. Berisha opposed for a while and then backed down.Resnjari (talk) 15:35, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
- Furthermore, I do not know why Albania chose to permit declaration of ethnic origin in its 2011 census, but it could been much better for the Albanian state to just leave this option out than to ask the Albanian citizens for their ethnicity and then fine them if their answers are not what the Albanian authorities expected or wanted. This is just mere my opinion, but I guess Albania, unlike Italy, Greece and Turkey, is bound by international treaties to recognize ethnic minorities on its soil. Greece and Turkey on the other hand are bound to recognize and protect religious ones, as agreed in the Lausanne Treaty, which Greece respected fully and to the letter, while Turkey repeatedly has violated, which resulted to the two countries showing contradictory results on the population figures in their their latest censuses: according to the 2011 Greek census, the Muslim minority of Greece not only is still alive today but also has grown in numbers (see Muslim minority of Greece) while the Christian minority of Turkey not only didn't grew in numbers, but shrank too much that nowadays became almost extinct (see Istanbul Pogrom and Greeks in Turkey). Like I said: minorities are a matter of state policies regarding them, and not censuses. (and no, it is not the Turkish census that made Turkey the only country in Europe with less than 1% of its total population Christian, but the Turkish policies). Censuses are meant only to provide the state with an image of the population and its categories that interest the state in its policy-making. You should have knew that already if you really participated in a Census. Now if you excuse me, there is nothing more for me to say here, and certainly got better things to do than to talk about censuses and human rights all day. -- SILENTRESIDENT 15:10, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
- Secular Turks in Greece can not demand more rights than the Greek commonsfolk have, or the Turks in Turkey have, or the Turks in Germany have. But sure the Greek state should grant them the freedom to form Turkish unions, if that is not a threat to the state's interests (which frankly I read somewhere that it is perceived as such).
- In all case, the Turks in Greece can only enjoy the same rights that the commonsfolk do. Same for everyone else. For example, in Germany (which hosts a large Turkish community in its soil - around 3.000.000 Turks or German-born Turks, making it as big as Albania in terms of population size), the Turkish citizens and migrants do not enjoy any special rights nor enjoy minority status and can only have the same rights as the rest of the commonsfolk does. Citizenship grants you equal rights and you don't have to belong in a minority for you to enjoy your rights in a modern European society, after all, unless you uphold traditions and norms that differ variably from the standard ones and these a require different law appliance (i.e. the Muslim Minority of Thrace).
- You may not know it, but the religious minority of Thrace is really religious - not only in terms of worshiping in mosques, but also in terms of law appliance - the Greek Thrace in fact maintains Sharia Law which makes it the only EU territory where the Sharia Law is permitted and is still in effect nowadays. Unbelievable, heh? I am sure you didn't knew that. While the Muslims living in Albania, Kosovo, Turkey and even Germany do not have such elevated rights, in Greek Thrace, the Turks, the Pomaks and the Roma, enjoy these special privileges stemming from the Lausanne Treaty, under the auspices of which, the Greek Courts recognize the privilege to the Muftis of Thrace to rule divorces and other aspects of daily life in accordance with the Sharia. I am very glad that Greece is nowadays an example where European laws and Sharia supplement each other, allowing Greek Thrace to be one of the rarest European places where Muslims can live by the Sharia laws and generally enjoy more rights than the Muslims in any other European countries. But still this does not mean that the rights of the Turks overall are fully respected, especially the ones of atheist Turks who do not want a religious way of life but a secular one, including the right to form unions and organizations that bear the term "Turkish" on their official names; an issue that appears to be very sensitive for the Greek state given its problems with neighbor Turkey. My position is that Greece should ignore Turkey and not use Turkey as an excuse for keeping itself far away from the rest of the Western World in regards to the freedom of self-determination. Turkey has made her bad choices but I want Greece to keep a different course on this than follow Turkey's poor records. -- SILENTRESIDENT 16:03, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
I'd like to remind all my fellow editors that Misplaced Pages in general, and talk pages in particular are not a discussion forum. See WP:TALK:
- The purpose of an article's talk page (accessible via the talk or discussion tab) is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page. Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views on a subject.
Moreover, Misplaced Pages articles are based on reliable sources, not personal knowledge. Please try to focus on improving the article rather than going off on interesting political discussions. --Macrakis (talk) 17:08, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 March 2017
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Under "International Rankings", it should be "Literacy Rate 2011", not "Literay Rate 2011". 104.193.105.215 (talk) 03:31, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Create an account, then you don't have resort to asking permission and you can edit as long as its within the guidelines/rules.Resnjari (talk) 07:31, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Done Thank-you for pointing that out! regards, DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 09:03, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
War editing & Pov Pushing regarding the acceptance of the census by the Sunni muslim community
The editor is bringing a dubious source which is citing a random person with the surname Jazexhi , it simply is unreliable , especially when considering the fact that the person cited is accusing the muslim community for accepting the census results in this article. Gjirokastra15 (talk) 01:35, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
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