Misplaced Pages

:Articles for deletion/Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center - Misplaced Pages

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
< Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Thomas B (talk | contribs) at 17:39, 24 September 2006 (→Arbitrary line break to make editing easier for all: comment). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 17:39, 24 September 2006 by Thomas B (talk | contribs) (→Arbitrary line break to make editing easier for all: comment)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center

Article forked from 9/11 conspiracy theories due to length of that article, but since the split, this article has become a hopeless quagmire of conspiracy theory nonsense, and even simple demands that the article try to meet NPOV have been met with further POV pushing. This is simply not what wiipedia is about...wikipedia is not for soapboxing, and is not an indiscriminate collection of misinformation. Delete.--MONGO 04:47, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Note to closing admin...the previous discussion has nothing to do with the current one.--MONGO 14:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Clarification. The previous discussion can be read here:.--Thomas Basboll 07:12, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Comment - since the split article has only become more NPOV, and better sourced (it almost hasn't grown in size and putting it back is out of the question). Simple demands you mention: well everyone can check on the talk page that your demands were very simple (Fix the problems that are in this article or it will be removed as an egregious violation of WP:NOT) and quite short and not explained and you made them yesterday. This is not what wikipedia is about... Check below for other arguments.SalvNaut 11:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Wrong...the article is huge compared to when it was on the 9/11 CT article...when it was there, the complaints were that adding more nonsense then would make that article too big. After forking, conspiracy theory folks have made this a repository of junk science. I asked to get the known facts about Steven E. Jones put in the article and was essentially laughed off. Misuse of Misplaced Pages to push conspiracy theory propaganda such as this makes folks like yourself nothing but problem editors. I mean look at the singular focus you and the rest of the cruftists have...a blind man could see that your agenda is to POV push conspiracy theory nonsense...you hardly edit anything else. You're not fooling anyone.--MONGO 12:12, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Wrong: MONGO laughed off?? - the facts about Jones you asked for are already in the article since yesterday (were added witihn hours you asked)... maybe you should concentrate on its content not your personal POV on this matter? What I edit is my personal thing - is it ad hominem argument you just brought on? To make this even I'll say that you make yourself look like a problem admin. No offence. SalvNaut 13:19, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Edit histories are transparent...yours are solely agenda driven.--MONGO 13:36, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Why do you accuse me of lying? Mine histories are true and real: Revision as of 23:58, 22 September 2006; Thomas Basboll - at the end of The hypothesis (since then has been moved to Conflicts with official explanation) there are sentences about Jones paid leave. You asked for it on the talk page at 21:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC). 2.5 hours - I feel offended by your groundless accusation. SalvNaut 14:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I never said you were lying, so don't put words in my mouth. I stated, and looking at your entire editing history this is obvious, that you are here solely to advance conspiracy theories. So far, you have not demonstrated that your purpose on Misplaced Pages is geared in any other direction. Those links do not demonstrate that Alex Jones has been adequately debunked as would be completely mandatory for this article to ever be NPOV.--MONGO 14:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Our job is not to debunk anything. Our job is to make articles on any and all notable things reported by secondary sources for a 💕. Those here for anything else need to leave. · XP · 14:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
No, MONGO, no - stop putting your words into my head. I am here to learn how to edit Misplaced Pages and gain knwoledge about 9/11. I won't discuss anymore with you, because it's got ad hominem and has nothing to do with the case. I can't find any source that would show that Steven Jones has been debunked (he was dismissed-its a big difference in science).SalvNaut 14:43, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
It's "extensively argued" if at all, on the internet. If that were a criteria for inclusion, we would have an article on every crackpot physics "hypothesis" posted on usenet, and articles on which of the Manning brothers is a better quarterback. --Mmx1 05:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Read the article, it makes a strong case and it cites alot of academic and scietific sources to back the hypothesis. Do I believe it? No. That doesn't mean it is not encyclopedic. Because it is a touchy subject and is prone to POV doess't qualify the article for deletion. This article needs work, not a all out deletion. NeoFreak 05:19, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
"it makes a strong case and it cites alot of academic and scietific sources to back the hypothesis" I see; it's an essay? --Mmx1 05:23, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
The main reason the article exists is because folks were unable to get this nonsense in the Collapse of the World Trade Center article...it is a definite POV fork therefore.--MONGO 05:25, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Not just making a case in the sense of debate but its continued existence on wikipedia which is really what I meant. An article talking about a POV or a established hypothetical concept has to do that. Which I think it does. I'd hate to see a article get deleted because the POV is covers is unpopular. NeoFreak 05:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh, on the contrary...I believe the POV it covers is popular...the problem is the ability of this article to be neutral, which I see no prospectus for.--MONGO 05:42, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
If that's the case it only helps the case for keeping it in an encyclopedia. Besides NPOV issues is not and never has been grounds for deletion. NeoFreak 05:46, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Nah, not if it is a gross violation of WP:NOT, which it is.--MONGO 07:48, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
The notion of an independent page for a minority POV is the definition of POV fork. --Mmx1 19:55, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep Keep Not sure what the other people are even reading unless they have a personal bias stake in this. WP:POINT afd nomination that appears trolling or disruption attempt? This is a fork that includes 95 sources, from nytimes.com to house.gov to all sorts of international coverage. The theory as a theory is notable, and 40% of Americans polled per CNN believe in theories. There is a criticism section and volumous sourced data. Why is this even nominated? Close afd as farcical--why is this even open...?
  • This version of the article has 108 references. Of them, just at a glance, I count at least 70+ that meet all Policy requirements for RV and V. They range from a variety of US government documents that touch on the theory, to news sources ranging from live reports by Dan Rather to the NY Times to the BBC. Seems notable enough to be an automatic keep, and rereading AfD policies we do not delete for POV reasons, nor neutrality reasons. We rewrite the article together, which is the only reason, and the only reason we're here: write 💕 about notable things that are reported on by secondary sources. Closing admin: this article therefore per RS meets all qualifications that I can see. · XP · 05:39, 23 September 2006 (UTC) · XP · 13:26, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Trust me that I am not a troll, so I'll assume your commentary must be. The farce is when people misuse Misplaced Pages to POV push nonsense

such as this.--MONGO 05:42, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you saying the theory isn't notable based on the mountains of media coverage? Or that it's too big for the parent page, and per policy shouldn't be forked off? Those two policies say that this article has legs and stays. Policy is on it's side, at this time, from what I've read. If you can cite in policy with examples why it shouldn't be, I will reconsider my opinion. · XP · 05:44, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Efforts to have much of this information in the Collapse of the World Trade Center article failed, so it was then built up on the 9/11 conspiracy theories article. This was split, and retitled and technically survived a different Afd, but this article has now developed into a repository of misinformation deliberately designed to give credence to something that has no basis in fact...it is an article that will perpetually masquerade as a scientific treatise. WP:NOT clearly states that wikipedia is not a soapbox, which this article is...a soapbox to promote conspiracy theory nonsense. Furthermore, I see no chance the article can be a neutral one and will ultimately be a battleground, further violation of policy. I rarely nominate articles for deletion, so when I do, I am most serious about my reasoning.--MONGO 05:55, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I guess it will be the community that decides if it stays or goes 5 days from now, with no one getting their points attacked I should hope. · XP · 06:02, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Then best you don't refer to my nom as trolling?--MONGO 07:48, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
True, fair point and struck. However, please justify and explain the comment you added then removed however of:
"The article will be deleted...I just thought I would bring it here for discussion...it's your job to convince me to not delete it. Since the article is a soapbox platform, that is a clear violation of WP:NOT."
Also per policy do not refactor others' additions to AfD or (I see your an admin now) be the one to close this--so, regretfully, it's not "your" decision for anything directly. Thanks! · XP · 13:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep the first paragraph, demolish the rest - That's all that's needed. Of course, the conspiracy theorists would never allow such an edit to stand. Sigh. - Richfife 06:02, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as unencyclopedic per nom. Pull it. Dual Freq 06:34, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep This article passed an AfD at 09: 42 on 22 on September. This nomination for deletion appears to have been made under 24 hours later. The phrase "since the split" should be read with that in mind. The requests to establish an NPOV and an encyclopedic approach have been met with friendly assurances that "we're working on it". The problems with this article had, as the nomitation notes, previously been problems with the 9/11 conspiracy theory article (which is coming around nicely) and (though this is before my time) the article on the collapse of the WTC (which is in great shape now - in part due to the efforts of editors who are working on this article). At this stage it is clear that the sections need to be trimmed in its "collection of information". As the closing admin on the recent AfD said, "it is clear that needs to be made more neutral etc, but this is going way outside the area of AFD.". I agree with that judgment, and it is too soon to say that the challenges have not been met. Anyone who reads the articles last few days of history will see it is going in the right direction. Anyone who reads its talk pages will be able to see the spirit in which the changes are being made.--Thomas Basboll 07:01, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
This is a seperate issue, so no it's not too early. Now we can directly discuss the reason why we should allow articles like this to be on wikipedia...since the focus is now and always will be an advocacy platform and a gross violation of original research in that you have a "hypothesis" and then deliberately seak out sources to support that hypothesis. Sorry, but misuse of Misplaced Pages for this purpose is not to be condoned.--MONGO 07:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
While Mongo's reasons to nominate may technically differ from the original AfD (though it is unclear to me exactly how), it is clear that the editors who are voting here have interpreted the issue in similar terms. Again we talking about "POV pushing" on the one side and "a notable theory" on the other. Importantly, the basic justification for this article is that merging it back into 9/11 conspiracy theories would undo some substantial recent improvements to it. Splitting it has offered a way to make progress on the presentation of both 9/11 conspiracy theories in general and the controlled demolition hypothesis specfically.--Thomas Basboll 07:10, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment Was this article up for AfD? This seems like a separate POV fork from the one that was deleted although it contains the same information. Tbeatty 07:25, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, and the result was to keep it.--Thomas Basboll 08:53, 23 September 2006 (UTC)ø
  • Keep - Notable theory on a notable event. Sources are clear that this theory is asserted by a number of people. Cleanup concerns should not be dealt with through an AfD. JASpencer 07:23, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - Seems like its the same old group of people who are proposing deletion of anything that doesn’t fit the 9/11 official story and the same people are against it. Gee, I wonder if that’s a coincidence. I'd bet not. Shortfuse 07:54, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Gee, it seems like the usual POV pushers of nonsense are all lining up to vote keep...I wonder if that is a coincidence? I'd bet not.--MONGO 07:57, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Exactly, and fictional or a dumb CT, it's still notable however, and thus an automatic AfD pass. · XP · 14:26, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Arbitrary line break to make editing easier for all

  • Keep the hypothesis is nonsense; however, it is notable. the article is a good place to document the nonsense. if the article is poor now, the solution is to fix it. if that is too difficult, npov tag it. Derex 09:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
    I'm really troubled by the idea of "documenting the nonsense". If the article is nonsense, as you suggest, wouldn't it be appropriate to just WP:CSD:G1 it and move on? alphaChimp 09:06, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep we want to honestly present in this article the status of knowledge about the hypothesis, which already caused quite a mess in the world. It's very notable among Internet users, it's made its way to the media, it's been considered among engineers (NIST, Bazhant - then dismissed) and there are academic papers promoting it (Jones,Cherpanov, Greening, who considers thermite reactions). There are voices form experts abroad (Swiss professor of structural engineering; Dutch, Danish demolition experts) agreeing with it. We want to present most notable points of this hypothesis (and there is a lot of them, they are mentioned in academic papers, summaries of researches, on thousands of blogs), present a critique of them (it's already done in many cases). There are secondary sources presenting this hypothesis, there is a critique of it, so the article can be very encyclopedic.
Proponents of deletion bring following issues on: WP:NOT a soapbox, WP:OR. My opinion:
  • Propaganda,self-promotion, advertising, or advocacy - it's not propaganda cause the hypothesis lives its own life and this article only presents it. It's not advocacy because article is written in NPOV language and criticism is already there and more is very welcomed.
  • publisher of orginal thought: the article presents thoughts which are on minds of millions of people(many scientists) - such thoughts deserve to be described and discussed, criticised.
  • WP:OR:the hypothesis has been published, has been engaged with (NIST discussed it,FAQ). There is no drawing conclusions in the article, no orginal thought (please work on that more if you wish).
Proponents of deletion, instead of working on the article to make it better, would prefer to delete it. They're using this tactics very often with regard to 9/11 articles - I agree that in some cases they're correct - not in this one, and recent AfD voting has shown that, too. Again - strong keep per above, per Thomas Basboll, per XP about quality of sources. --SalvNaut 11:00, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per Derex. People (including some Americans) seriously believe it, made a DVD out of it, etc. --Storkk 11:22, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. This was split from the 9/11 conspiracy theories. I think this material needs to be put back in the main 9/11 conspiracy theories article. It can be shortened by cutting OR, unreliable or non-sourced material, etc. --Aude (talk contribs as tagcloud) 11:51, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep. I think the name of the article is really insane (jeeze), but given the enormous list of references it certainly appears to be notable and not original research or indiscriminate information. If there are POV issues, those can probably be dealt with independently. Might need to be shortened a bit as well. ~ lav-chan @ 11:56, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox, not a publisher of original thought, and not a free web space provider for conspiracy theorists. The sources the article has are mostly self-published conspiracy sites — unreliable, systematically and purposefully unbalanced sources. The phenomenon of conspiracy theories can be covered in 9/11 conspiracy theories, but the point-counterpoint argumentation (the bulk of this article) is utterly unencyclopedic original research soapboxing. To improve the article: cut down the soapbox part (vast majority of it) and roll it back to 9/11 conspiracy theories. Weregerbil 12:46, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete per nomination. Crockspot 13:24, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per Weregerbil above. Tom Harrison 13:36, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per NeoFreak. // Duccio (write me) 13:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per User:Mmx1 --rogerd 15:08, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Blatant soapboxing, and as such unlikely to ever meet WP:NPOV. Many of these "secondary sources" aren't exactly reliable ones, either. | Mr. Darcy talk 15:58, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. While clean up is certainly merited (a number of the sources I've managed to go through so far are, at the very best, barely capable of satisfying WP:RS), no one is arguing that this theory's existence is unverifiable, and it's certainly notable. I assume that the majority of those who have responded here have heard about the theory at some point. In my eyes, if the theory has gained enough credence that even my own government is taking the time to respond to it, it's also got enough to warrant a WP article. The article itself is not inherently POV, and the "blatant soapboxing" everyone is referring to can be cleaned up by clearing the worst cruft and citing the rebuttals where possible. POV is always going to be an issue with articles on controversial topics, but AfD isn't the place to resolve it. Philodespotos 16:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete. This collection of minority viewpoints will never achieve a NPOV, will never have reliable sources, and will never stop being a soapbox (which Misplaced Pages is Not). It's also entirely unencyclopedic. Delete it now. alphaChimp 17:03, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong keep perhaps speedily as a repeat AfD so close to the previous one. Like it or not, this is a noted crank theory. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:46, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete per Alphachimp. -- I@n 18:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep. I am trying very hard to assume good faith, and am not really succeeding. WP:NOT a soapbox, and these continual AfD nominations appear to be part of a soapbox. The article passes all the critera for inclusion. We should not care that the conspiracy theories are good theories or bad theories. We should simply document them as being a phenomenon that we record in an encyclopaedic manner. Our role is not to judge the theories in any way except to document that which is notable. The theories are patently notable. If the article requires editing that is a different matter from nominating it for deletion. Time to get back on message, guys. It's an encyclopaedia, not a newspaper. 18:30, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
    Comment. The theory is complete BS, but that's not the point. The point is that this article will never achieve a Neutral Point of View, has no reliable sources, and serves as a soapbox. alphaChimp 18:32, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
    No. that is not the point. Diligent editing can remove non neutral point of view items. We are not here to look into a crystalk ball, we are here to edit. We can flag disputed articles to suggest that they may not be neutral, we can do a great deal. The sources that are quoted to illustrate the theories are, usually, acceptable sources in that they pass the relevant tests. Fiddle Faddle 18:39, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
    I'm a bit perplexed about how this article can ever be made NPOV. As for the sources listed, the only reasonably reliable one I recall is Popular Mechanics (correct me if I'm wrong). The majority are conspiracy sites. I suspect their content is just as POV as this article. alphaChimp 08:03, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
    Per AfD policy none of your cited reasons are valid Deletion reasons. Why would this article because of subject matter some disagree with be exempt from established policy? · XP · 18:45, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
    It's not quite so much disagreement as it is the absolute inability for this article ever to become anything beyond POV and hoaxcruft. alphaChimp 08:03, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
    Unfortunately, I count 60+ unrefutably reliable sources that no one can contest. The theory exists. It is reported on. It is notable. It is not a hoax that it exists, and either way none of this is a valid reason per AfD policy/procedure to delete. I think it's bullshit, but my view does not matter. Popular will cannot trump policy for what is meritous, and 60+ RS is certainly meritous. I want to AGF but the fact that this was nominated 24 hours after the last AfD on the same content is just the height of hubris, and as Jeff mentioned should be tossed on procedural grounds. This is already clearly going to be a no concensus or keep--this needs cleanup, and does not qualify for deletion, as AfD is not a vote (thankfully). Anyway, the sudden and premature AfD will at least insulate this from future premature AfDs as any new early ones will be certainly considered a disruptive WP:POINT vio of some sort. · XP · 08:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
    I really think that it's in poor form to come out with allegations of bad faith and WP:POINT here. Let's stick to the topic at hand and save the ad hominem comments for other venues. As to your sources: of course, there is some wheat amongst the chaff. Yet those few good links only reference the unreliable hoaxcruft put forth by crackpot authors, personal websites, and other unacceptable sources. In essence: pull the unreliable sources and you get one POV--leave them in and you get another. Either way, it'll never be NPOV. alphaChimp 08:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
    Wait, wait--so for some reason, because some of us consider it a dumb theory or disagree with it, valid RS reporting about the existance of a thing being espoused by possibly unreliable people means that we shouldn't have an article on it? That makes absolutely zero sense and I'd like for you to demonstrate where/how in policy such a thing is justifiable. Unless I'm misreading what you just wrote, your saying that is 1. I announce I am heriditary Emperor of the United States; 2. I post it all over the Internets, all over print media, and buy a TV spot Ross Perot style to espouse this; 3. I am a certifiable crackpot. 4. The NY Times and other international and domestic media cover my nonsense reliably; 5. I shouldn't have a wikipedia article because it's not provable that my statements may or may not be false? That makse zero sense and following that logic I can apply it to virtually any article on any fringe subject matter that I disagree with to get it removed from Misplaced Pages. That is wrong and not how the system works. · XP · 08:33, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
    Ironically, the same people whom this article cites as reliable sources would probably buy into your announcement. Fortunately, there are precious few. This isn't a matter of sanitizing the site for "my opinion" or "MONGO's opinion". It's a matter of removing an article that will always be a cruftish soapbox for an extreme minority of people. It's not our place to advertise theories and breed disdain for the US government, we're here to present the facts in the most neutral unbiased way possible. I do not ever see that happening with this article. alphaChimp 09:01, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
    Ironically, I think my point was missed. It's not our place to decide if something is meritous based on it's virtue, and it's neither our place to breed disdain for the US government nor is it our job to prevent it. This is not the American Misplaced Pages, it's the English Misplaced Pages. American POV, pro or con, has no more relevance than English, Scottish, Canadian, Jamaican, Austrailian, South African, or New Zealand POV. Neither has any more intrinsic value than any other. If something is offensive to some Americans, that's of no relevance, and if the subject matter leads to people clucking their tongues at the US government... well, that's not our concern. Also, have you not noticed the constant surveys that says 1/4 to 1/3 of all people believe in 9/11 related Conspiracy Theories? Hardly an extreme minority, there are scores of such reports all over. From a major Aussie news source.. Basically, what I'm saying is that whether or not it's appealing or insulting to some Americans--which seems to be the implication for many of these delete votes--that's their issue, not Misplaced Pages's. · XP · 09:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep per Thomas Basboll, who has done an amazing job with organizing and condensing the significant amount of existing information and continues to keep it relatively NPOV, allowing the information to be seen, and not packed in on all sides with POV labels and opinions from the other side at every turn. bov 04:29, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
  • NPOV? How is it NPOV when 10% of the article is criticism and the rest is a WP:OR violation citing evidence in support of this hypothesis? It is wiki's place to state the hypothesis, it is not wiki's place to argue it, even in part. --Mmx1 04:33, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Agenda driven AfD nomination. If the article has problems, deal with them, but the subject matter itself is notable and there is too much info to merge it into the larger 9/11 conspiracies article. SchmuckyTheCat 04:56, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Agenda driven? This article is the one that is agenda driven.--MONGO 07:23, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per Alphachimp and Mmx1's comment above. Angus McLellan (Talk) 07:54, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per Alphachimp and Mmx1's statements; whether or not people believe in it is one thing, the fact that it cannot be reliably sourced or conform to a neutral point of view is another. Ryūlóng 08:41, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - the hypothesis exists and is notable, while also being of interest. Semiprotection would be highly advisable, to limit bad-faith IP edits. Ace of Risk 11:59, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete and reconstitute. I think there's a good case for saying that the controlled demolition claim (hypothesis is too kind a word) is notable, as it's been tackled by some quite reputable sources in an effort to refute it. However, the sourcing of the present article is awful. I suggest deleting the present article and reconstituting it from scratch, using only reliable sources instead of the conspiracy cruft that infests it at the moment. -- ChrisO 13:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Comment. "Hypothesis" is the word that both the official report on the collapse (NIST) and the most detailed statement statement of it (Jones) uses. This is very clear in the present article, which cites both Jones' emphasis on its hypothetical nature and NIST's use of the same word. As for the sourcing, yes, it is uneven. But the hypothesis itself is easily located in a handful of detailed conspiracy theories and mainstream media coverage and the official investigation (brief mention) and the scientific literature (very brief mention). We need to filter out some noise in the article, not start from scratch. (Though the thought has also occured to me.)--Thomas Basboll 15:14, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong & Speedy Keep This article is fair, balanced and detailed. It has 108 references! It is a controversial topic, but it deals with both side of the issue fairly. The nominating editor, Mongo, is a well known POV pusher and abusive deletionist who has been frequently and recently blocked for numberious violations. I belive it is infact the article's fairness and lack of bias that this user objects to. This a a bad faith nomination.Self-Described Seabhcán 14:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
    I once again appreciate Seabecan's personal attacks and odd linking to an arbcom case which has already resulted in two of those who were harassing me now being indef banned...and this is before the voting has even commenced. Seabhcan claims this article is balanced. The only fact based citations are those from mainstream science, not from non peer reviewed conspiracy theory websites. This article is clearly not capable of ever being neutral, except to those who dream and fantasize that controlled demolition is what really happened on 9/11. My guess is that, as usual, this kind of comment from Seabhcan is deliberately designed to provoke a hostile response...kind of the thing I deal with when he posts edit summaries such as these:, , and of course there are more. Seabhcan's presentation of a barnstar to an indefinitely banned editor was also, well, strange, especially when done after he that editor has been banned..--MONGO 14:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. For God's sake, put this unsalvagable POV fork out of its misery. --Calton | Talk 15:01, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment The nomination offers two criticisms of article: (1) the article has become increasingly mired in "conspiracy theory nonsense" and (2) suggestions for improving it have been met with "POV pushing". The accuracy of the second claim can assessed by looking at the article's talk page under "Unencyclopedic" and the associated edits (see especially and compare with Mongo's "demand" in the talk pages.) The vast majority of the alleged "miring" and "pushing" has taken place over the last couple of days, working very quickly (note the cautious tone in the edit summaries). We have been trying to convert a list of curiosities into a coherent prose presentation. Of course, people who think that the views presented are incoherent will consider any semblance of coherence an act of misinformation. Many of us, however, who have looked at these theories in some detail, have come to concede that, even if they ultimately may prove to be false, they do in fact 'make sense'. It is the sense we have made of the controlled demolition hypothesis thus far that we would like to present on its own terms to other readers of Misplaced Pages.--Thomas Basboll 17:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Categories: