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Philosophy: Logic Start‑class Mid‑importance

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auctoritate vs verecundiam

Wow I just noticed the verecundiam in Latin actually means to shame and auctoritate actually means authority. We should include something about this in the article. Doug Walton's book "Appeal to Expert Opinion: Arguments from Authority" is a citation to start, but I have to come back to it later. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 21:23, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

References

1. Walton, Douglas (1 November 2010). Appeal to Expert Opinion: Arguments from Authority. Penn State Press. pp. 57–60. ISBN 0-271-04194-3. Retrieved 24 March 2017.

@Richard-of-Earth:I think they are very similar, in this usage it actually refers to the idea that one should be in reverence of or defer to a particular authority. Here is some (likely unintelligible) explanation.

verēcundia

1.knowing one's place: regarded as a virtue; coyness, modesty

2. in shame (of one's self in respect to something/someone else), awe (in respect to the superior)

From vereor ("(to/I) respect, (to/I) revere, (to/I) rightfully fear") and cundia ("begotten from, mother(not really a good translation), source of")

When synthesized (in the context of a type of augment) this becomes something like "with respect to the source of my shame (due to inferiority) and the cause of my righteous fear I believe what X(the source of these things) says and you should too". Which is to say that it is an argument done in deference to an authority.

The use of this argument implies that one can not convince the "opponent" of the merits of one's claims and thus defers to a mutually "respected" source without further evidence (in the strictest sense).

(my post represents an accumulation or synthesis from a large variety of sources and slight modifications in spelling of the words (in english letters) and should not be referenced in the article)

Translation across this vast amount of years and culture is hard, and finding a truly reliable source to do so is difficult. Endercase (talk) 06:10, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Well, you do not have to go that far. Locke coined the phrase in 1690. It means whatever he meant. What this means for the article is we should not present "argumentum ad verecundiam" as Latin for "argument from authority" as that would be "argumentum ad auctoritate". I found some places that use "argumentum ad auctoritate", but I think we do not need to mention it here as it is uncommon. We should present "argumentum ad verecundiam" as a different name for the argument type. We should also decide if we want content in the body about the Latin phrase, the meaning of "verecundiam" and any change in meaning over time. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 06:56, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

@Richard-of-Earth: Ah, well then, this may be an issue of Due weight. We should present both IMO. "argumentum ad verecundiam" is still a more common useage compared to "argumentum ad auctoritate" if the number of google hit is a good metric. Though if you have multiple (2+) reliable sources for "argumentum ad auctoritate" then by all means we should include it. I will do so now. Please add your citations when you have time, in case this is challenged. I do not see a significant different between their usages at this time though. Endercase (talk) 19:32, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

@Richard-of-Earth: Could you provide RS for "argumentum ad auctoritate"? It has been challenged, it will be removed without RS. Endercase (talk) 17:24, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

@Endercase:The point I tried to make was "argumentum ad verecundiam" is not Latin for "argument from authority" and shouldn't be presented as such. I do not feel "argumentum ad auctoritate" should be in the article. I guess I will take a stab at re-writing that first sentence and then you tell me what you think. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 17:50, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

@Richard-of-Earth: You should cite the translation (latin for "argument to shame"). Translations are an issue in wikipedia I think. They require more RS I think. And maybe 'originally called argumentum ad verecundiam' should read as : 'First recorded usage as argumentum ad verecundiam' or something. Endercase (talk) 18:04, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

@Richard-of-Earth: Maybe you should edit here as we are close to a merge: User:Endercase/Argument from authority introduction. Endercase (talk) 18:08, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

@Endercase: I used Google translate. There wasn't a citation for the translation before, why should it need one now? However I will have a look and put something in. And what merge? Richard-of-Earth (talk) 18:23, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

@Richard-of-Earth: Yeah, Google translate is not RS, we aren't even allowed to link to machine translations of foreign Misplaced Pages articles as they often miss nuance (and are sometimes compleatly incorrect). The LEDE has been rewritten primarily due to edit warring here, the proposed LEDE is publicly available and hosted at on the other side of this link here. Endercase (talk) 18:32, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

OK, I used a more common translation and added citations. You can incorporate them as you see fit in your new and improved version. I really came here just to point out that it is not a direct translation nor even close. I am not very interested in participating in any arguments or further re-writes. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 18:42, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Check out the new proposed LEDE

It still needs some work but it is re-located: Here. It also has an attached working talkpage. Endercase (talk) 04:40, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Alright, we think it is ready (or nearly so). I have asked for comments from a number of users. Please visit the proposal and provide criticism. It currently has 3 editors agreeing on it and none opposing it. There are also a number of pulled quotes from RS on the talk page for easy reference. Endercase (talk) 17:34, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

argument ad auctoritatem removal

@FL or Atlanta: I saw your edit removing "argumentum ad auctoritatem" as an alternative Latin phrase, and I was about to revert it back. I thought I remembered seeing that alternative name in the WP:RS. However, from a diligent Google search, it seems the most reliable WP:RS call it simply "argumentum ad verecundiam", "argumentum ad verecundiam fallacy" or simply "ad verecundiam" . So, I will leave it unless someone finds better WP:RS to justify it.

I did, however, find one source that did discuss and distinguish argumentum ad verecundiam from argumentum ad auctoritatem which said:

There is a difference between the argumentum ad auctoriatem (appeal to qualified authority) and the argumentum ad verecundiam (appeal to unqualified authority). Both forms of argument propose that a certain position must be accepted on the basis that some prominent authority (be it an individual or community) accepts it. There is, however, a clear distinction between the two, since the former is a valid argument and the latter is not. An argumentum ad auctoritatem claims that something is to be accepted because a real auctoritas, or authority in the relevant field, accepts it....

I do not know enough about the qualifications of the author to know if they have sufficient expertise in the subject matter--I don't make the fallacious form of the argument we are discussing by citing improper authority about the topic "appeal to authority". :) --David Tornheim (talk) 09:48, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

I undid it on the grounds that it was not a minor edit and it was marked as so. I will ask the Adding editor for RS. Endercase (talk) 17:22, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

The quote above was written by Giovanni Boniolo (see his credentials on page 349). The Google book is Swiss cheese with every other page blocked, so I do not know where he gets his ideas on the subject. I get the impression the study of rhetoric is full of people who present their own ideas as the consensus of the field. I do not think "argumentum ad auctoritatem" should be mentioned anywhere in the article. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 18:07, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Richard-of-Earth A number of the editors have PhD's in Philosophy. If there was a problem with that portion of the text, I would assume they would have caught it. I believe in one of the sources discussing Locke, the term "auctoritatem" might have come up. I'm a bit too tired to try and find that right now. --David Tornheim (talk) 10:23, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

David Tornheim oh my goodness, did you just make an argument from authority on the argument from authority talk page? Well I do not have a PhD, so I guess I should stick to removing vandalism and neatening formats and stay away from content. But to a degree you are right, anyone can just make up a name for a supposed unique rhetoric element and it may take someone with a PhD to sort out the WP:FRINGE and WP:OR. That said, I looked in google books and I see the phrase "argumentum ad auctoritatem" has been around for quite a while, so I will retract my statement. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 19:32, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Notice of NEW proposed Lede

This new proposed lede (WP:LEDE) is ready to be incorporated into the article. Three of us (Endercase,MjolnirPants and David Tornheim), have worked diligently on this lede since March 22, 2017 here as proposed by Endercase here who welcomed all editors to participate here on March 22, 2017. Further notice to review the proposed lede was given on April 1, 2017 and again on April 16, 2017.

The three of us are agreement that it is ready to be incorporated (Endercase, David Tornheim MjolnirPants) and intend to replace the current lede with this version of 19:15, 16 April 2017.

If you disagree, or propose changes please let us know. It would probably be better to discuss objections at the project page and make mention on the talk page here if you do. We intend to make the change very soon if no objections are raised. --David Tornheim (talk) 10:58, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

@David Tornheim and MjolnirPants: The change has been made! Endercase (talk) 21:28, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

The problem with both versions is that they don't talk about the other side enough. There's a deep divide on the issue and no consensus. I included the sources from both versions so now the page reflects that FL or Atlanta (talk) 12:24, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

What rings clarion is the need for congruity on this vexing row. Whilst my own theorem is that each man must arrive at his own denouement that lies atop the apex of the mount of individual discovery that he must clamber atop; sometimes roughly and others smooth, to simply heed every Crier higher on the path calling "Turn away, ere you go down the wrong path" or "come hither, 'tis this way" is an abandonment of one's duty to seek truth undissembled. Yet, by pronouncing such an averment on this resource, would I not be violating my own creed? Shall I become the Crier, now braying "turn from all voices, turn from a chorus of voices; examine the path itself"? No -- I shall catalogue the proclamations of others, and in so doing, annotate the path rather than add another voice to the cacophony. PraiseTheShroom (talk) 13:51, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

@PraiseTheShroom: I quite enjoy your choice of words. I agree that we must achieve congruity, how do you suggest we do so? I would also like your opinion and criticism on LEDE that I was responsible for ultimately adding here. I agree that each individual must seek and find their own authorities and truths but at the truths of others are worth pondering. We must become each Criers for our own views else our perspectives are in danger and falling out and being lost to the whole. All views have value and should be duly catalogued and discussed IMO, though here we must limit ourselves to "reliably" published citations and avoid "original" research. I will revert to the LEDE that was discussed among a larger group of peers and was approved. Though a rational and supported proposal by any party should be rationally evaluated upon such time as the proposal has been received. I dislike the tendency to change consensus based wording to the wording of a single peer (one voice). Thank you for you input thus far, I look forward to our future discussions.

Reliably published citations (indeed, were you to ask for my sentiment, from the most reliable time when the true spirit of Science and Progress lighted the hearts of man at an apex never since quite matched) are clear on the subject. I refer you in the first to that penned by myself from the Medical Press and Circular. Permit me to furnish several more for the benefit of our inquiry:

Mr. Davenport's statement, ‘I cannot believe it possible for him to have been mistaken in any specimens coming under his observation,’ reminds one more of sentimental hero worship than of a sincere attempt to know the truth. The citation of ‘authority’ and ‘the opinion of the fathers’ is as obsolete in botany as it is elsewhere…

From http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/2464353.pdf

There is no positive value in an argument of appeal to authority</blockqute>

From https://books.google.com/books?id=xVPLHOr1wJYC&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115

The argumentum ad verecundiam is one of a dangerous character, since the history of science has taught us that men of the most comprehensive and erudite minds have at various times maintained the most crude and inconsistent dogmas.

From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2558028/pdf/provmedsurgj00318-0006.pdf

Any book which aims at scientific method should contain within itself all that is necessary to the immediate issues, and should avoid the appearance of anything like an appeal to authority…

From https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=5jA1AQAAMAAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA1

On such a subject no appeal to authority will avail to silence doubt. The minority may, after all, be right. What men call heresy proves sometimes to be the truth of God.

From https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=xHYXAAAAYAAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA1

The Argumentum ad Verecundiam is an appeal to the opinion of an authority which the person against whom the argument is used is bound to respect and follow…This argument can also hardly be said to prove any thing…It is used and very well serves to embarrass an antagonist. Beyond this it has but little force…”

From https://books.google.com/books?id=80j9nKZ8atMC&pg=PA336&lpg=PA336

A great number could be added to this host alongside these. Many are they that hold that the mere fact a man has conjectured an opinion or many men give it sway is not a sign of its truth, no matter how a reader may envision their docket. Should not this particular folio of the website give air to their words? Just because a man plugs his ears before a choir does not imply that there is silence. PraiseTheShroom (talk) 00:57, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Endercase (talk) 17:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

@FL or Atlanta: What "other side"? The LEDE that you and PraiseTheShroom have put in place says the same thing in a poor format as the one that was added after weeks of work. The LEDE was open for criticism during that entire time (see above notices). Please refain from changing the LEDE again without bringing up your proposed changes here for consensus. We must work together here or nothing will get done. Endercase (talk) 17:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

No one's obligated to check random pages. The only ones that matter are the Talk. The fact you worked on something on one of your personal pages doesn't somehow make it official. What ultimately matters are the sources, and it looks like the ones you gave are mostly all in PraiseTheShroom's version. The "consensus" here is that version: one that discusses each side as per the sources, which is what we've got. This is WP:POLE in action: some people are big fans of appeals to authority, some people aren't. By all of us pushing, we've gotten a very balanced article. (Which honestly I'd say gives way too much credence to this fallacy). Reverting good moves towards a consensus version in favor of your pet version is disruptive editing. Perfect Orange Sphere (talk) 23:49, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Also, don't cite the sources in the way you did again. Many of them were out of context and one was a youtube video. Please refer to the guidelines for the proper addition of sources. Endercase (talk) 18:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

All the sources seemed good to me - what was "out of context"? And what's wrong with a video from a published historian and archeologist? Do the words change if he writes them on an article on a website instead of speaking them? If videos weren't acceptable sources, why would Misplaced Pages even have a citation category for citing A/V media? Perfect Orange Sphere (talk) 23:56, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

@Perfect Orange Sphere: Please strike your claim that Endercase is being disruptive by pushing his "pet version". This is a version that three of us collaborated on for a month, that we invited you to discuss, that we notified you of several times, and you did not show up or raise any objections, until we added it to the article, after having gained consensus. If anyone is being disruptive it is you. There is no consensus for the version that is there now. As for the sources, MjolnirPants has it right. --David Tornheim (talk) 00:29, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

And the work had what you would see as a good result - now the page fairly reflects your side with your sources. Nothing on Misplaced Pages is ever permanent, but everything has a lasting influence on the page as it develops. Personally I think the way it was before all this was better, but if you can't stand that version then at least we can both bear for this one to exist - even if it does entertain the notion that a blatant fallacy for the intellectually listless is a valid argument. Perfect Orange Sphere (talk) 01:16, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

@Perfect Orange Sphere: There are no "sides" among editors, be careful with such claims. I have seen editors get banned for far less. We (editors) are here to document the historical, provable facts. The current LEDE makes no controversial claims that are disputed by reliable sources. Even your own sources do not make the claims you appear to claim they do (that the appeal to authority is always wrong). Instead your sources appear to advise one to exercise caution when differentiating between an appeal to a false authority and a "true" one. I personally agree with your premise that there is no such thing as "true" authority; which means to me that all sources must be questioned and that all knowledge that isn't personally and repeatedly verifiable is less inherently reliable that knowledge that is. I do not understand the issue you have with the current LEDE as I feel it does reflect the concept that not all "authorities" are intellectually honest. I am fairly certain that the person in the YouTube video you cited would agree with the current LEDE (with possibly minor revisions), though if you can get them to come here we can know for sure. Endercase (talk) 12:05, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

@Endercase: Endercase, for the record, the man in that youtube video is neither a "published historian" nor a archeologist. He is a martial arts instructor and "TV/Film/museum consultant". He does not so much as possess a graduate degree in history, let along any body of historical literature. That being said, I am also quite sure he would agree with the drafted lede. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:47, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

While I agree that such qualifications are important, but the fact remains that at least 2 editors consider him a reliable source. The major issue with their argument in my mind is that not even in the cited video does he argue that you can't trust anyone ever (it would undermine his own argument). They appear to claim that the appeal to authority is always wrong partially because, I think they think we think, it is an absolute statement (meaning if a recognized authority (such as the man in the YouTube video) says something then that thing is always right). I think the current LEDE reflects that even a recognized authority can be wrong and that all absolute appeals to authority are fallacious, as they claim. "A is very likely true" As such I do not understand the issue they are taking with the LEDE. I was careful to make sure their cited (if odd) view was accounted for and represented.

I do not understand the hostility Perfect Orange Sphere(POS) appears to think I intend to their beliefs. POS IMO needs to be more clear when describing the issue(s) they have with the current LEDE preferably with a line by line analyses. POS also need to familiarize themselves with policy a bit better. Their slight wp:canvassing (notice on a talk page) was risky. Their arguments are close to wp:meatpuppet IMO (as they appear to me to be fundamentally identical); as are ours to them I imagine. IMO POS need to make an effort to convey their opinion to us in a more empathetic manner as we appear to not understand the point or even underlying values of their argument.

@Perfect Orange Sphere: I do not intend any hostility, please explain the issues you have with the current LEDE like I am a stubborn child who knows little to nothing: use direct quotes and citations to source your argument so that I can understand where you are coming from and from what body of knowledge that you draw from. This is my humble request. I do seriously, wish to understand your argument. I think you are a good faith contributor and you may have a valid point, I may be just failing to understand it. Endercase (talk) 16:11, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

• The assertion that there is a debate in philosophy over whether this subject is always a fallacy or not is both false, and OR. As implemented in the version Endercase reverted, it was evinced entirely by synthesizing material from references which are either inappropriate or which did not support the claim they were cited in. There are no sources at all stating that there is any serious debate over whether it is always fallacious to appeal to authority. The closest thing to it are sources which debate whether or not the fallacious use (appealing to a non-authority being represented as an authority) is fundamentally different from the legitimate use (appealing to an actual authority). Even that debate is rather low key, because the "there is no distinction" side tends to correctly point out that there are circumstances under which appealing to a legitimate authority can be fallacious (such as quote mining, or presenting a depiction of a minority view as the consensus). ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:10, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Just for good measure, I feel obliged to say I'm in favor of the new lede, which is much clearer. Kleuske (talk) 08:57, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Clarity in this case would be a mark against it as the issue itself is not clear from all the sources. Are appeals to authority solid arguments with force that you should believe automatically, or should you mistrust them and they ought to be avoided? Good sources say both so the page must as well. FL or Atlanta (talk) 22:14, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

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