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    User:Creuzbourg and User:K.e.coffman Talk:Hans-Ulrich Rudel

    Establishing a case of WP: Tag team I think. They have established a two-editor consensus, that declares sources unreliable in their personal opinion. They insist and deleting swathes of information, and retaining a tag of "unreliable sources", with no support from the historiography. I am hoping for some sort of resolution, nothing more. Dapi89 (talk) 17:17, 25 April 2017 (UTC)c

    This is part of an editorial war already reported Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Dapi89 reported by User:K.e.coffman¨ I suppose its better if all matters are resolved in one forum. Otherwise, I think its rather a case of WP:OWN on behalf of User:Dapi89, proven by such statements by him as: Editors opinions count for nothing and I will do as I please. There are three editors who agrees. Creuzbourg (talk) 17:26, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
    Dishonest. I said I will do as I please on my talk page, not the article. Also, our collecrive opinions dont matter, its the sources that should prevail. That is the point i made quite clearly. Please dont lie. Dapi89 (talk) 17:51, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
    @Dapi89:, you are required to notify users when starting a discussion about them, see the big orange edit notice at the top of the edit page. I have notified them both for you. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:46, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
    Somehow I feel I am involved. I did not edit the article, but contributed on the talk page. I notice that Dapi89 has voiced the first accusation of tag teaming on 4 April 2017. Since then the editor has made no attempt of WP:DR, but confined him/herself to short comments speaking of a possible "destruction" of the article that he/she has to prevent. Thus the editor seems to perceive anyone who is not with him as being against him.(from WP:AN3RR). The editor routinely resorts to accusations. From today --Assayer (talk) 20:36, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
    For the administrator who look into this case: Misplaced Pages editor Creuzbourg (person who started to mass remove material on the Rudel page) tagged the article as containing excessive intricate details and contains unreliable sources even though is a GA article that requires to meet the comprehensiveness criteria and is throughly reviewed, has also tagged with the same tags these following pages:
    → FA article: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Albert_Kesselring&type=revision&diff=777161722&oldid=776657232
    → FA article: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Werner_Mölders&type=revision&diff=777174753&oldid=776113712
    → GA article: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Adolf_Galland&type=revision&diff=777163959&oldid=776113388
    → GA article: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Erich_Hartmann&type=revision&diff=777160461&oldid=777010274
    I don't believe Creuzbourg editing of these articles is being done in good faith, he acts as if he have consensus for tagging and removal of sourced material on these Featured Articles and Good Articles. In other words, from my observations he is biased and agend-driven editor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.237.138.234 (talk) 21:40, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
    IP 104.237.XX, please log in to your account if you wish to attack people on ANI (or for that matter on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Military history). Nobody believes you don't have one. Evading scrutiny on noticeboards is inappropriate. Bishonen | talk 20:12, 28 April 2017 (UTC).
    I do not believe that Featured Articles and Good Articles are beyond criticism. I am not driven by any agenda. I do not normally write about WW2 German military history or biography, but tried to improve an article that I found faulty. I tagged it and started a discussion on the discussion pages. I did not want to do, what most WP-editors do, i.e. just leave a tag and run; however the tag was immediately removed, the discussion thwarted. I am immensely disappointed with Misplaced Pages that such disruptive behavior can go on and on and on, and extremely tired of the whole thing. I am perfectly willing to be banned from editing Rudel or any of above articles, as long as Dapi89 also will be banned. The articles are faulty, and the tags should not be removed before consensus is reached. Creuzbourg (talk) 22:12, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Update and request: Dapi89 has been blocked for 72 hours for edit warring (in a conflict which is relevant to their OP complaint of tag teaming). They ought really to be able to comment here without any cumbersome please-move-this-to-ANI system, so I've offered to unblock on condition that they edit nothing other than this ANI thread for as long as the block would have lasted. They're not online and I have to go out now. If they agree to the condition, I'd appreciate it if any passing admin would kindly unblock, with a note about conditions in the log. Bishonen | talk 10:30, 26 April 2017 (UTC).
    Response by Dapi89: Then no, on principle. I'll agree to leave the Rudel page alone for 72 hours, if the same rule is also applied to the tag team operating there . Dapi89 12:34, 26 April 2017 (UTC) (Diff). Assayer (talk) 13:45, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
    Thank you, Assayer. So much for that, then; he'll remain blocked, AFAIC. Bishonen | talk 14:16, 26 April 2017 (UTC).

    Boomerang proposal: 30-day topic ban for User:Dapi89

    • WP:BOOMERANG: the reporting editor has a long pattern of uncivility and ad hominem arguments. Just today, at the WP:3RRN, he suggested that he can also provide evidence of Coffman of violating the 3RR rule on many occasions (diff). When I invited him to file such a report, he responded with On reflection, this is a case of Misplaced Pages:Tag team without providing any proof for this claim: diff. Substantiation is lacking from this report as well, which I consider frivolous & without merit.
    This has been an-going pattern with the editor, please see some of the edit summaries by Dapi89 from the Rudel article as well as others:
    This pattern of behaviour is disruptive and a topic ban from Luftwaffe / WWII articles (perhaps starting at 30 days, same duration as floated at the 3RRN) may be in order: diff from 3RRN. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:10, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
    Although this has many appearances of a content dispute, I agree with @K.e.coffman: that @Dapi89:'s POV edits and source disputes are problematic. This user has every appearance of a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality to preserving "their" sources and interpretations. They frequently accuse "opposing" editors of lying, rambling, dissembling, and incompetence. Their block log shows 6 blocks for disruptive editing, personal attacks, and/or harassment. This is behavior that has persisted and show no signs of abatement after these blocks. Examples just since their last block include, but are certainly not limited to (in no particular order):
    Dapi89 clearly has an issue with K.e.coffman and seems incapable of participating in any discussion of WWII topics, especially ones in which the latter is involved, without resorting to accusations of bias and incivility. Equally clearly, there needs to be some resolution of these issues. Since I am also tangentially involved, I refrain from suggesting any specific remedies but trust to the evaluations of the folks here. Thank you for your time. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:23, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Dapi89 and coffman clearly have issues with each other;l I'm very reluctant to say it's on DAPI. I'd say it's a two way street. The discussion to which coffman refers is often not a discussion at all but a barrage of wiki-rules and wikietiquette and wikipolicies, followed by edit summaries, links to old pages, and so on. It is a brilliant use of wikipedia's user guidelines to obfuscate the issue, which is fundamentally that one editor wants to control and limit the sources relating to Nazi-era articles, and another wants to include a wider array of sources. One editorial group wants to trim articles of all details, including things that are important, that might be of human interest, and that relate to post-war activities, and another editorial group who think those details might be interesting. auntieruth (talk) 18:41, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
    • I've attempted to discuss issues with the editor previously, but it was not successful; see: User_talk:Dapi89#Edit summaries. I've also attempted to engage the user in the discussion at WP:Notability (people)#Current consensus, but apart from an erroneous claim, no dialog was offered. Another contributor pointed out the personal attacks (Talk page), but the response was: I'm not going to rephrase. There is a history of disruption with this editor and I will make the point in which ever way I like and the standard ad hominem about the suspect agendas of arch-polemicists. Etc. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:13, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Comment -- despite being warned about a potential block and / or while blocked, User:Dapi89 has continued to cast aspersions and belittle other editors, as in
    • cant seem to distinguish the wood from the trees (diff);
    • it appears as if you have taken sides (diff);
    • Dishonest. (...) Please dont lie (diff).
    He has offered no substantiation to the claims at this ANI discussion, while insisting that there's a tag team operating at the Rudel article. I have concerns that once unblocked in the next 36 hours, the user would continue this pattern of behaviour, and I thus reiterate my topic ban proposal. K.e.coffman (talk) 11:16, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Oppose TB Luftwaffe This argument between DAPI and 2 other editors seems to have degenerated on all sides, and I object to banning a professional historian who specializes in aerial warfare. auntieruth (talk) 14:45, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
    • It's not just two other editors, as documented above. While this particular incident started with Dapi89's accusation of tag-teaming against two editors, but his bad-faith accusations over many, many WWII content disputes are not limited by target. The statement "degenerated on all sides" is also an apparent mis-interpretation of events. In this dispute, as in others involving Dapi89, his interlocutors have refrained from the personal attacks and incivility that are clear in his own statements. As to the professional historian charge, even professionals are expected to edit by consensus and good sources. Every time Dapi89's sources are challenged he becomes very, well, unprofessional. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib)
    • not sure who posted this, but I will say that the whole discussion is out of control. I'm more likely to support an "all fighters to their corners" approach to give everyone a breather. Including those of us who are trying to keep up with the opus-like volume of material posted on why such and such is bad, or good, or problematic. auntieruth (talk) 15:00, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
    • I refer you to your own posts. This demonstrates incessant bickering. Every week I'm reviewing something that you're editing; some of your material is very good, especially on the Russian and Ukrainian fronts.--I like it very much. As for the "diffs", I don't have time. Papers to grade, exams to write, articles to edit, reviews to do. Anyone looking at the history of the pages in question can see it. As for degenerating, the name calling -- whoever does it-- needs to stop. The bickering is not helpful, No one has time for it, and I wish it would stop. auntieruth (talk) 20:04, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Auntieruth, I understand you may well have better things to do in real life than to provide evidence (diffs) for your accusations against K.e.coffman. But in such a case, the proper course of action is to refrain from posting those accusations. Seriously. I don't see how K.e.coffman is to be expected to answer something so unspecific as "your own posts ... demonstrate incessant bickering". Especially since uninvolved editors such as me can see K.e.coffman's posts, they're right above, and I don't see any bickering in them. Except indeed in their many quotations of bickering and intemperate remarks by Dapi89. Bishonen | talk 20:36, 27 April 2017 (UTC).
    • As a comment, not all academic or other experts are able to properly edit WP. A professional historian obtains importance in their field by finding new data or original reinterpretations; aWP editor must do neither. An academic is expected to have a distinct personal POV, and to firmly defend their hypotheses as superior to those of other people; a WP editor must do neither. Some professional historians , especially those known for writing general textbooks, are able to write and interact in WP mode; some are not. The ones who cannot resist OWNership are usually banned from even a topic area where they are experts. Their ideas are not banned: they can still contribute by their published works, which can then be used by other editors. DGG ( talk ) 16:38, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Yes, thank you for clearing that up. This all goes back to a discussion of whether a specific source is considered reliable: Just, Günther (1986). Stuka Pilot Hans Ulrich Rudel. Atglen, Pennsylvania: Schiffer Military History. ISBN 978-0-88740-252-4. Schiffer is a private, family owned publisher. They have a wide array of books. I'm just not convinced that this is an alt-right wing publisher promoting fascism. There has been a focused effort by one or two editors to limit the publications that are considered neutral for this range of articles, and I just don't understand the problem with it. I don't think it's DAPI's effort--although he/she is sometimes a bit abrupt--but I also think coffmann can be off target on these things too. I'm concerned that a series of articles that have been collectively valued and reviewed by the project are being taken apart unnecessarily. Can they use some discreet editing? Probably yes, but not on the scale that has been happening. Two of the editors involved seem to expect instant responses to their posts, and that just doesn't happen. We all of us have "real life" and cannot be expected to drop everything because they have posted a question. I do appreciate that coffmann is now (most of the time) posting questions on the talk page before massively unilaterally deleting information, or bilaterally doing so with the other editor's approval. I'm just not convinced yet that this is the right thing to do. auntieruth (talk) 20:00, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
    An editor who routinely says things like: "I don't give a damn what you think," and "Your opinions are not important," and "Such an assumption is colossally stupid" is not "a bit abrupt". This minimizes and papers over the very persistent attempts by Dapi89 to bully and badger editors into acquiescing to his position. Couching this behavior in terms of the dispute over Schiffer is also inaccurate. As noted above, this behavior has involved other editors besides User:K.e.coffman and User:Creuzbourg. This is hardly behavior provoked by one content dispute. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:56, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
    As can be seen on the talk page, the "conflict" evolved with a discussion about "intricate details". It was actually me who first questioned the bias of Günther Just's work on Rudel on 2 April 2017, not because of its American publisher, however, but because of Just's close personal ties to Rudel, the NPD and, later, the DVU. In short, Just is a well known journalist of the extreme right and his work is strongly biased. A little to my dismay that did not become a major issue during the ensuing debate and it was never commented upon by Creuzbourg. Instead the discussion focused upon style, intricate details and GA criteria (i.e. question of "comprehensivenes"). There is one thread on "sources". But what has been reverted by Dapi89 ever since were mainly copy edits.7 April 2017 or 25 April all the while he only minimally contributed to the discussion. --Assayer (talk) 22:36, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
    Concerning Dapi89's habits as a "professional historian" of aerial warfare I might point out that they recently made mutually exclusive claims about two different persons. On 10 February 2017 they claimed that Friedrich Rumpelhardt was Most successful radar operator in the Luftwaffe, part of the most successful night-fighting team in air warfare , whereas on 9 April 2017 they claimed that Erich Handke was The most successful night fighter operator of the war Both statements obviously contradict each other. Dapi89 still also found words to belittle K.e.coffman on each occasion.--Assayer (talk) 11:35, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Support a topic ban as proposed, i. e. from Luftwaffe and WWII, not just from Luftwaffe, for 30 days. 30 days, which would be a long time for a block, is short for a topic ban, in my experience, and I'd also support a longer ban, such as three months. Reverting an established and obviously good faith editor with an edit summary of "rev deletions by Coffmann, ignorant, dishonest, disruptive" is pretty scandalous, no matter how much you disagree with them. It's the kind of aggressiveness that's likely to ruin the experience of Misplaced Pages editing, not just for the target of the abuse, but for other people who are deterred from discussion by it. As for the accusations above and at Talk:Hans-Ulrich Rudel that coffman has also taken part in "bickering", I can't see that they have any merit. I've noticed further examples by dipping into Coffman's userpage, which names no names, but is full of juicy quotes with links to who said them. That's far too much for me to go into, or indeed read, but for a recent example, check out the history of Günther Lütjens on and around 10 March, which is where the edit summary I quoted comes from. There we see coffman removing the external links with polite references to the talkpage, and Dapi reinstalling them with name-calling. (The talkpage discussion is also interesting.) The quotes offered by Eggishorn above add to the impression of a battleground editor. Bishonen | talk 15:36, 28 April 2017 (UTC).
    • Support 3 month topic ban from WW2 broadly construed per Bishonen. Coffman is certainly a contentious editor within the WW2 field, but he is respectful and follows WP conduct policy and content policy. People's issues with his views on sourcing being Nazi propaganda, etc. are a content dispute not best handled at ANI. That doesn't matter here though, as those issues are content disputes. The question is whether or not Dapi's behavior in WW2 articles is enough for a topic ban. The name calling of editors who are perceived as being on the opposite side of a content dispute in WW2 is disruptive to the project. A topic ban would not be punishment: it would allow steam to escape and hopefully encourage future collaboration. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:51, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Comment - A topic ban as proposed, i. e. from Luftwaffe, for 14 days, should be enough time for him to be reflective and cool his heels, if one is to be imposed. Kierzek (talk) 17:18, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Oppose as auntieruth has said many of us have greater 'real life' priorities, and most of us can't keep up with the sheer volume of edits coming through. I can appreciate Dapi's level of frustration has reached breaking point. I acknowledge I also have history with coffman's practices and it has left me dispirited and resigned that quantity and rules-lawyering will win out a common sense approach on Misplaced Pages. As I was approaching a breaking-point, I did a self-imposed exile from the topic unwilling to put wasted time and effort to either compile and argue for a case or to write new material when it would likely be reverted without discussion. I also acknowledge that neither side can see merits in the other's case and I don't know how this can be resolved. I would prefer auntieruth's proposal that both sides be given a timeout instead of just one being singled out for punishment and reprimand when both have exhibited questionable behaviour by different means and methods. Philby NZ (talk) 23:20, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Comment: I would consider editor Philby NZ to be involved given the prior interactions; for example, here's commentary from an AfD on an article that I created (AfD: J.J. Fedorowicz), where he commented on my editing reputation, while suggesting that the article's purpose was to act as platform to show how shoddy its publication reliability is (diff).
    The disagreements that Philby NZ describes were due in part to copyvios on the Luftwaffe articles that he contributed to; pls see for example: User_talk:Diannaa:Copyvio (where he had described my contributions as sabotage). Likewise, past disagreements with Dapi included in part the placing of copyvio-revdel tags in articles. Dapi insisted on removing such tags, such as here: Talk:Gustav_Rödel#Copyvio, which also showed Dapi's rather surprising lack of awareness about how Misplaced Pages handles copyvios. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:32, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
    yes and that it why I mentioned my conflict-of-interest. The copy-vios were related to some of my original writings on Misplaced Pages. The tribulations of dealing with you since have meant I have barely written any article-expansions since on this topic in the last few years. Philby NZ (talk) 21:17, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

    Poke The current 3RR block expires today so Dapi89 can contribute his understanding of concerns expressed the above. I'm poking this thread because it is currently unclear if his return at that time will be conditional or not. Aside from the standard conditions that apply to every editor, that is. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:54, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

    It's not conditional. Dapi89 was offered an earlier unblock on certain conditions, but did not accept them, so those conditions are a thing of the past. His 72-hour block will expire in about three hours, with no conditions. He'll be free to edit all of Misplaced Pages after that. Bishonen | talk 18:18, 28 April 2017 (UTC).
    Okay, below are a few edit diffs (my grading is finished for the week) that I have dredged up.
    • I don't think it's reasonable to expect an editor to respond in short order to another editors demands. see this conversation
    • I call this an unreasonable action on the part of another editor
    • acknowledgment of an editorial war here.
    • and here. Since these articles involve WP:MilHist, it may be that we have some housecleaning to do on our guidelines. Would you suggest that? I can bring it to the project's attention (again). auntieruth (talk) 18:56, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
    Are you sure you posted the diff's you intended? It is very easy to get the oldid parameters mixed up when posting diff's, hence my question. These tend to document poor behavior by Dapi89 with the exception of the conversation with me on K.e. coffman's talk page (at worst general frustration with a wikiproject) and the changes to Sayn-Wittgenstein (K.e.coffman has made no secret of their disdain for romanticism in WWII German officer articles and doesn't do so disruptively there). In fact, some duplicate some of the earlier-posted quotes of Dapi89's behavior. I think that history is already well-established. Did you mean to add to the record or to support the earlier statements about "bickering"? If the latter, I'm very confused as to how these help. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:13, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Well, yes, I guess. I don't like pulling up old edit posts, because it seems like water unbder the bridge. And yes I did meant to chose those, because they show another side to the story. auntieruth (talk) 19:23, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
    We had an edit conflict while I was adding this.
    • I realize that WWII is a contentious subject. I found a reddit page with all kinds of instructions about how to disrupt wikipedia's efforts to provide some coverage of the German military. I have it bookmarked and I could post the page here, but I'm not sure it would be productive. Its instructions were very clear on how to disrupt the wikipedia processes. One of the complaints was the the abundance of articles on the Knights Cross and lack of articles on Heroes of the Soviet. I'd like to see more of those. auntieruth (talk) 19:22, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Comment -- indeed, the romanticisation of the German WWII war effort is not only being discussed on the internet, but is also a subject of serious academic study. I would recommend:
    (Disclaimer, all these articles have been created by me). I would suggest either one as required reading to anyone who would like to edit on WWII topics as they related to the German war effort.
    Separately, I believe Auntieruth55 to be involved; please see: ANI: Attempted doxxing / casting aspersions by Auntieruth55 below. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:32, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Support The evidence in the first two comments under "Boomerang proposal" is compelling, as is the attitude shown at User talk:Dapi89#Blocked (diff if needed). Johnuniq (talk) 23:48, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Oppose TB I have my problems with Dapi's editing style as well as coffman's, but both editors have engaged in battleground behaviour, and have an unswerving certainty of the "rightness" of their views. As auntieruth has pointed out, the never-ending threads and streams of wikilawyering and pointy behaviour that come from coffman are hard to keep up with. WP would benefit from both editors showing a bit more respect for consensus. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:08, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
    Its not just between User:Dapi89 and User:K.e.coffman, its also about User:Dapi89's behavior towards me when I tried to copy edit the Rudel article. When it comes to unsubstantiated claims of "professionalism" and hints of academic employment in the present discussion, that's just ludicrous. Any real academic, whether tenured or not, is swamped with teaching, trying desperately to get time to do real research, and publish real articles; not spending their valuable time writing and fighting rear-guard actions on Misplaced Pages. Creuzbourg (talk) 13:18, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Peacemaker67 please provide evidence of battleground behaviour and streams of wikilawyering and pointy behaviour. Please also show how I've demonstrated insufficient respect for consensus. Otherwise, please retract your statement. (Such accusations from the user are quite typical, as in Yet more wikilawyering and pointy behaviour while apparently describing WP:BURDEN as an essay: diff).
    For the record, I make a distinction between community-wide and project-specific consensus; see WP:LOCALCONSENSUS -- more wikilawyering! :-) In the Rudel article where the tag team accusations have stemmed from, such consensus has resulted in an article consisting of talkative expositions and meticulous investigations of insignificant details (see Intricate details, with participation by Peacemaker67, MisterBee1966, Dapi89 & Auntieruth55). A similar protracted discussion took place at Hartenstein#OR. Talk page participants included MisterBee1966, Dapi89 and Auntieruth55 over a month's time. Likewise, see Gollob#Recent edits, in multiple parts, with participation by MisterBee1966, Dapi89, Peacemaker67 and Auntieruth55.
    The project coords might want to consider whether its best practices are in agreement with the wider community norms, or even with its own project members. In the thread that Auntieruth55 started as part of this dispute (Massive changes of FA articles), one member commented that the articles in question should be delisted because the sources are too old or too Nazi: diff. This is while the OP states: I don't know what the problem is with these sources , which seems odd for a professional historian. K.e.coffman (talk) 16:25, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
    Happy to. Give me a couple of days. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:02, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
    You appear to misunderstand what I meant - you did not mean that I considered the sources inadequate, but that some editors considered them inappropriate. The complete failure to find any sort of consensus or compromise and the associated edit warring is what renders the articles unstable and prime for delisting. The strident appeals to ANI to try to get anyone who opposes you to be blocked or banned, and the twisting, whether intentional or not, of what others say to make your point, only makes the situation worse. (By the way, I thought that I was meant to be informed when someone involves me in an ANI discussion).Nigel Ish (talk) 08:20, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
    In response to a request that I “put up or shut up” (my words) about K.e.coffman’s unpleasant and aggressive editing behaviour, in the context of Dapi's behaviour, I have looked at some articles where K.e.coffman and I have interacted. I assert that these are indicative of his general aggressive editing style. Most of the highlighted articles are about senior German officers who served in Yugoslavia (Yugoslavia in WWII being my main area of interest). Given his prolific editing rate, no doubt his demonstrated behaviour on these articles has been repeated hundreds of times on articles I am not aware of. So, these are just a few examples from where our interests intersect. As I have noted, when challenged he gets very pointy. As another editor has noted, this manifests in “discussion” which is often not a discussion at all, but a barrage of links to wiki-rules, wikietiquette and wikipolicies, followed by edit summaries, links to old pages, and so on. I have found his editing style to be quite aggressive and unhelpful to the encyclopaedia, so I have avoided interacting where possible given my interests. While not condoning Dapi'd editing and communication style, I think coffman's also has to be taken into account here, it can be intensely aggressive and frustrating.
    Some aspects of the behaviour which I describe as problematic with these articles can be placed under several headings. I am highlighting just three aspects here:
    (1) removal of reliable sources he has personally decided are unnecessary or “militaria” books, despite their having clear encyclopaedic value for the future expansion of an article, using a number of spurious justifications, including that their use is “over-citation”, when in fact in most cases it is only the second citation for a given piece of information. He sometimes removes the citations, then subsequently states the source is “unused” and removes it. This is not in the interests of the encyclopaedia, as it removes potential sources of information for those that might wish to expand an article;
    (2) highly selective removal/commenting out of what he personally refers to as “intricate detail” such as dates of promotion, family details, awards etc from biographical articles, despite long-term and clear consensus that such information is part of meeting the comprehensiveness criteria on military history articles;
    (3) edit warring against consensus to get his way; — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peacemaker67 (talk • contribs) (added here)
    This is exactly the kind of behavior I was talking about below, particularly the edit-warring demonstrated in the third point. If Dapi needs a ban (topic or otherwise), then K.e.coffman needs one too. Parsecboy (talk) 13:36, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    I fail to see a smoking gun in the diffs above. The first two sections show a mild disagreement over the interpretation of “comprehensiveness” vs “summary style” requirements, how uncited content should be handled and what constitutes overcite. These diffs do not show me referring to anyone as “dishonest, ignorant, disruptive”; a “vandal”; a “virtual-SPA newcomer” whose behaviour is “deplorable”; or telling them to “get off your high horse”, etc.
    I don’t see evidence of the “edit warring against consensus to get his way” either. Many of the edit summaries provided by Peacemaker in the 3rd section point to Talk pages where I attempt to discuss the edits. Sample edit summaries: (1) “Pls see: NPOVN" or (2) “BRD -- insufficient discussion on Talk page; pls see: Overly detailed article” (the last one is interesting as it was Peacemaker who had in the past quick failed the article's GA nomination “due to a significant amount of unnecessary detail”; see: GA Nomination).
    The diff from the Kübler article is similar, with Peacemaker's revert: "please familiarise yourself with how en WP does biographical articles". I've not performed a single revert on that article; how is that edit warring? Instead, there’s a discussion on the Talk page: Recent revert, where a response to a 3rd opinion request sided with my interpretation of BURDEN: . Unless one editor embodies the “Misplaced Pages consensus” (and also decides what is and what isn't edit warring), I don’t see how this is outside of the normal BRD & dispute resolution processes.
    In any case, I consider Peacemaker’s “Oppose” vote to come from an involved admin, as he has participated in the reverting at the Rudel article: . K.e.coffman (talk) 00:21, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Take the example of the first link in point 3, one of K.e.coffman's reverts on Gordon Gollob. If one looks at the article history, we see you edit-warring with Dapi and Misterbee (i.e., K.e.coffman's reverts here, here, here, here, and here) over the span of a couple of months. Based on the discussion, or lack thereof on the talk page, K.e.coffman seems to believe that if the other editor has not responded within a couple days, he is justified in reverting. This is not evidence of collaborative behavior.
    As for Peacemaker being "involved", this is not the first time I've seen you cite policies and guidelines you do not understand. WP:INVOLVED only prevents Peacemaker from using the admin tools in a dispute with you, it does not prohibit him from commenting on this discussion and voicing an opinion. Parsecboy (talk) 13:18, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Much of this is about content. Potential sources of information can be anything regardless of WP:RS and whether the sources in question have a clear encyclopaedic value for the future expansion of an article is indeed questionable. If an editor is actively editing, but does not care to respond on the talk page, how long is one expected to wait? For example, on 12 March 2017, while they did not find time to visit the talk page of Gordon Gollob, Dapi89 reverted K.e.Coffman on Günter Lütjens, commenting rev deletions by Coffmann, ignorant, dishonest, disruptive, and, on the talk page There is only one opposing it. The consensus has remained for several years. Reverted. As a side note, not only has none of the linked websites been written by a recognized authority, one even took its text directly from Misplaced Pages. Overall this does not create the impression that it would be worth waiting for an editor who clearly shows no willingness for collaborative behavior. Once again the editing styles of two editors, who strongly disagree on content issues, are linked in a causal manner instead of viewing them seperately. Interestingly though, only one editor is given the benefit of it. Their proposed TB is opposed because of alleged "battleground behavior" on both sides, or at least, that's another conclusion, both are to be banned. Uncivility seems to earn a bonus when it's directed against the right person. --Assayer (talk) 01:26, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Oppose TB Never had any interaction with any of the participants here. After a quick review I am incredibly unimpressed by User:K.e.coffman's approach to the "content dispute". For instance He raises the reliability of the source "Obermaier, Ernst" on Talk:Werner Mölders#Tags. Obermaier is a source for tens of articles on Misplaced Pages, a handful of which have now been tagged. Very frustrating that instead of choosing raise this issue at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, he is on here trying to knock out a fellow editor Bosley John Bosley (talk) 11:39, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
    • @Bosley John Bosley:, it hardly seems fair to accuse K.e.coffman of being "on here trying to knock out a fellow editor". This ANI thread was started by Dapi89, trying to "knock out" (if you like to put it like that) two fellow editors, K.e.coffman and Creuzbourg, on a charge of tag-teaming (which has yet to be substantiated). Those two editors should reasonably be permitted to respond. Bishonen | talk 14:41, 30 April 2017 (UTC).
    This ANI thread was started after K.e.coffman initiated the WP:Blocking Games Here. Bosley John Bosley (talk) 15:26, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Oppose - while I have had my problems with Dapi in the past, I don't believe his behavior is any more problematic than Coffman's (in fact, I said as much in the ANEW post that resulted in Dapi's block, though that was seemingly ignored). Coupled with behavior like this (deliberately hiding my rebuttal of his deletion rationale as "off topic"), I actually have more trouble with Coffman's activities than I do Dapi's. Parsecboy (talk) 15:28, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Given that I'm one of the people you're discussing, Assayer, I figure I'll respond. I didn't come here so much to defend Dapi as to oppose K.e.coffman. Coffman's behavior is classic - edit-war over an article, then head to the drama board first to get the other side blocked (carefully framing the case to omit any wrong-doing on his own part). Why we reward this behavior has always amazed me. Why Coffman (and Creuzbourg) was not similarly blocked for his edit-warring on the Rudel article over the course of the past month (or even admonished) is, frankly, inexplicable. Which is to say, if 1, 2, 3 reverts in eleven minutes, followed by a 4th a very cautious 31 hours later (after Dapi was already blocked) is not edit-warring, we have a very serious definitional problem. And since you seemingly acknowledge that both sides are pushing a POV, one wonders why you (and others) tolerate one and threaten the other with a topic ban. Parsecboy (talk) 13:26, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    • This thread is about a proposed topic ban for Dapi89, because of his long record of uncivility and ad hominem arguments uttered against various editors on various occasions. So far you and other editors opposing such a ban have mainly pointed to K.e.Coffman as being the (at least as) guilty party. And, yes, that argument is construed to defend Dapi's behavior. You might perceive it as if you were adding context to that conflict. I perceive it as apologetic. It gives me the impression that you tolerate Dapi's behavior, or somehow even approve of it, as if certain editors deserve that kind of treatment or have asked for it. If you consider K.e.Coffman's behavior to be disruptive, start a thread about it, present your arguments, support it with difflinks and make your suggestions, how you think that the community should deal with it.
    Re:POV I am of the opinion that anybody has a point of view and that neutrality is acchieved within a collaborative process defined and guided by the various editorial guidelines, for example WP:RS, WP:DUE, WP:ONUS and so forth. I have stated this point before and the reaction was kind of "He said Jehovah", or, in the words of Dapi89: That encapsulates the problem Assayer, with you and K.e.Coffman: "I think" and "IMHO". Editor opinions count for nothing. Assayer and K.e.coffman have used Misplaced Pages to attack sources about any German serviceman who served in World War II if it dares to complement their personal bravery or service record. I did not threaten a topic ban, btw, I merely would like to see that pattern of uncivility being stopped. What's your suggestion? So far I perceive your argument as something like: Make Coffman disappear and everything is fine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Assayer (talk • contribs) 15:24, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Dapi's incivility is not limited to this topic - if your problem is his uncivil behavior, a topic ban is not the solution.
    • I am categorically opposed to sanctioning one editor in a conflict and allowing the other to get away with the same behavior, simply because they ran to the drama boards first. That is why I'm here. I am no friend of Dapi - this is the last time I tried to help save him from himself, and you can see what I got for my efforts. Frankly, I'd be happy to see them both indef'd, but unfortunately we're probably not there yet (and to return to my earlier comment, why the community allows this level of disruption for as long as it does is beyond me). Parsecboy (talk) 15:54, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Parsecboy:, the narrative you laid out above fails on the very basic fact that user:K.e.coffman did not start this thread, user:Dapi89 did. Also, Dapi89's problems are not limited to K.e.coffmann. They are consistently incivil and insulting to any editor they perceive as an enemy. I see no recognition in your remarks so far in your thread that you are taking consideration of the actual facts involved. Statements like Coffman's behavior is classic - edit-war over an article, then head to the drama board first to get the other side blocked seem to be motivated instead by personal prejudgments. Dapi89's initial allegations of tag-taming were never supported and seem to have been rejected by most here. K.e.coffman's accusations of incivility and personal attacks, however, are amply supported by statements above and even trivial searching will find more. There have been additional accusations of K.e.coffman's poor behavior, again without evidence. I would think an admin would at least attempt to substantiate ANI postings about another editor. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:51, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Eggishorn:, as someone else pointed out above, and you either missed or ignored, Coffman went to ANEW before Dapi started this thread. No evidence of Coffman's poor behavior? Are you bothering to read anything I've said? Try the bit I am bolding for your attention now. Parsecboy (talk) 17:54, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Parsecboy:, I might reasonably ask the same of you, especially since the "someone else...above" was me. I am quite aware that I posted about Dapi89 being reported to 3RR. I note that such reporting was reviewed, accepted, bocked, and then the block was also reviewed and endorsed. Holding K.e.coffman's feet to the fire over a report that 3 admins had a hand in seems really unjustified, not to mention disrespectful. If you want call K.e.coffman's edits gaming the 3RR rule, well, I can't tell you otherwise. I note that the full history actually stretches out over five days, involves at least four editors, and was accompanied by talk page posts. It seems like edit warring and WP:BRD playing out simultaneously, making the behavior of anyone not crossing bright lines a matter of interpretation. I also note that this thread has gone from accusing K.e.coffman of tag-teaming to accusing them of incivility to accusing them of bickering to now accusing them of edit warring. Are we going to keep moving goalposts until we can find something to catch them on? Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:18, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Eggishorn: - I was referring to Bosley John Bosley's comment directly above my original statement, not yours. If you were aware that Coffman went to ANEW first, on what basis did you challenge my "narrative"?
    Obviously I cannot comment on why the other admins ignored Coffman's behavior on the article - but surely you would not subscribe to the idea that admins are infallible? On the article in question - take a look further in the history, and you'll see that the three editors have been reverting each other for over a month now.
    As to the rest, where have I accused Coffman of incivility, bickering, or tag-teaming? Surely you cannot insist I defend arguments I didn't make, can you? Parsecboy (talk) 20:29, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Parsecboy:, I challenged it on the basis that you said: ...then head to the drama board first. I have always seen "the drama board" refer to this one. I cannot recall any expansion of that phrase in general use to refer to 3RR. Perhaps "the drama boards" (plural) including all the WP:AN sub-boards is what you meant. The narrative of events on this board, however, clearly started with Dapi89's unsubstantiated complaint.
    I don't, obviously, think admins are infallible or else I would not have challenged your postings, would I? When three admins, including one as respected as @Bishonen:, agree on a set of actions, however, I tend to think they might be on to something.
    I did take a look at the history. I would not have made the 3RR/BRD comment unless I had. The history shows it is not a case of simply reverting and re-reverting. Different formulations are added, refactored, reverted, partially re-added, etc. Combined with the talk page discussion, that means calling a three-party edit war is missing important qualities.
    My last point above refers to the general trajectory of the thread. I'm not asking you to defend Dapi89's or auntieruth55's comments. I do think that continually adding new charges for an editor to defend to the same thread is unfair. I get that K.e.coffman is out of step with a number of MilHist editors (and I honestly don't know if you are one of them) and that creates disputes. I think I documented that Dapi89 has crossed very clear lines of behavior. I also think that K.e.coffman tries very hard to "color inside the lines," so to speak. If walking up to the line and not crossing it repeatedly is itself sanctionable, however, then there are rules I'm not aware of in play. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:54, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Eggishorn: - argue semantics all you want, the point that Coffman ran to a drama board to present a one-sided version of events that resulted in Dapi's block stands.
    I tend to think that means they just didn't examine the situation all that thoroughly. No one is perfect, whatever their reputation is.
    Look, you can split all the hairs you want, but the long and the short of it is, the three editors were editing over each other, trying to force their version of the article in for the past month. It doesn't matter in the slightest that they reformulated things as they went—in fact, 3RR specifically states "whether involving the same or different material".
    {{xt|" If walking up to the line and not crossing it repeatedly is itself sanctionable, however, then there are rules I'm not aware of in play." - indeed there are. From the intro to WP:EW: "The three-revert rule is a convenient limit for occasions when an edit war is happening fairly quickly, but it is not a definition of "edit warring", and it is perfectly possible to edit war without breaking the three-revert rule, or even coming close to doing so.". And when Coffman made 3 reverts, and then waited a full day to make a 4th, it seems blindingly obvious he knew what he was doing. Parsecboy (talk) 23:18, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    Oddly enough, stating some-one is "arguing semantics" and "splitting hairs" is a classic hair-splitting semantic tactic to dismiss arguments and avoid addressing their merits. You were the one that spoke of a repeated pattern of K.e.coffman "running to the drama board" and then changed what that meant. You were the one that posted all of one example of this supposed repeated pattern. You were the one that imputed motives to K.e.coffman that you expect others to accept just because it's what you think happened. This is all uninspiring evidence of your version of events, and I think I am well within the rules to point it out. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 23:34, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    Bullshit - you dismissed my claim because I didn't make clear exactly what drama board Coffman ran to, when you yourself admit you knew exactly what I meant. Want more evidence? Look a few threads down, for another example of Coffman running to this drama board, trying to get another editor sanctioned for a ridiculously false doxing claim. There, you will see two other similar cases linked, where his activities succeeded, at least in part.
    Ironic that your reply, where you accuse me of dismissing arguments rather than rebutting them, completely ignores my point about Coffman's edit-warring. Pot? That's an awfully dark shade of black you're wearing. Parsecboy (talk) 23:44, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Comment Could k.e.coffman provide one evidence that his contributions to Luftwaffe articles on Misplaced Pages (topic ban k.e.coffman wants for Dapi89) have been made for any other reason than for the advancement of article quality. We would like to see contributions to Luftwaffe articles you improved, contributed or developed. I could provide the opposite. I would like to ask for your action on an Luftwaffe article: Otto Kittel. This article was rebuild by Dapi89 and MisterBee1966 starting with 16 February 2017 (it was rebuild with different sources as k.e.coffman raised the question about using kurowski and community accepted that he is unreliable) and since then until Dapi89 was blocked, the article was stable. Once Dapi89 was blocked you edited the article and remove literally everything. See the difference: Could you please explain your action on just this article. You removed literally everything, all sourced material including Obermeier, Bergström, Constable-Toliver, Trautloft etc. Are really this source non-reliable? Can you provide here or on the Otto Kittel talkpage sources that state that? This discussion is very important for you conduct here on Misplaced Pages as some persons raised the question for a topic ban for you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.237.138.234 (talk) 20:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    Um, did you miss this from above? IP 104.237.XX, please log in to your account if you wish to attack people on ANI...Evading scrutiny on noticeboards is inappropriate. This post makes it impossible to believe that you are new since January (as the IP contributions would imply). Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:14, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Comment on timeline: For anyone who's keeping score on who has reported whom and to which board, here's the timeline: At 16:46, 25 April 2017, Dapi89 posted to this board over a dispute at his talk page, requesting that Creuzbourg be "blocked from his Talk page" . Shortly thereafter, I posted to 3RRN, at 16:55, 25 April 2017. Dapi immediately used that forum for spurious claims directed at Creuzbourg and me (see the hatted section of the post: link to 3RRN archive). At that point I invited him to post to ANI, which he did, at 17:18, 25 April 2017. Hope this clarifies. K.e.coffman (talk) 21:13, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Comment on the proposal: I followed the link provided by Parsecboy, and then another -- this was quite illuminating. Sample diffs: "I will (as the greatest contributor to the article) change the altered passages as I see fit (...). I don't need to discuss it nor do I require your permission" ; "Weak Parky. (...) Understandable as it is a struggle to make sense of what you say. Careful how you write" ; "Yes it does Peter. (...) Please buy the Collins German dictionary" , etc.
    Although these predate my interactions with Dapi89, mine have been similar: "The Germans do not refer to the current air force as the "German Air Force"! I suggest some reading is in order for you" . This dispute took a side trip to NPOVN to resolve.
    The diffs show that Dapi89 is quite passionate about WW2 topics and considers himself to be an expert. But, as DGG has pointed out, this often leads to the inability to edit articles neutrally or collaboratively. Anybody with different point of view is considered "ignorant", "disruptive", "dishonest", a "vandal", "tag team", and so on, as is obvious in this case.
    This can also lead to situations when the immersion in a particular topic leads to original research or fast & loose handling of citations. I can provide diffs/links if needed. Dapi's behaviour has led to on-going disruptions over many years and a topic ban is indeed needed, IMO. K.e.coffman (talk) 21:34, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

    Support 3 month general ban on Dapi89 for incivility, bullying and aggressive tactics. Carlotm (talk) 22:10, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

    Pattern of making controversial title changes without RM or discussion by user In ictu oculi

    In ictu oculi holds views that often differ from mine about article titles, which is no crime, of course, except he regularly engages in unilateral page moves, without discussion, that are in accordance with his eccentric views, but are often contrary to consensus view, or are at least clearly controversial. WP:RM is quite clear about potentially controversial title changes - they should be avoided, and requests at RM should be initiated instead. Anyway, IIO has been warned in the past, and I warned him yesterday, and he made some more moves today, so I'm asking for assistance. This has been an ongoing problem for the better part of a decade.

    A couple of recent examples:

    Warnings/discussions:

    • By PaleCloudedWhite PBS, in an ANI notice, in August of 2012 .
    • By Tbhotch, in another ANI, in 2014 .
    • By me, on IIO's talk page, in October of 2016:
    • By me, on IIO's talk page, yesterday

    IIO and I often clash on title decisions so I'm not the most objective judge, so I ask others to confirm there is an issue here. I'm hopeful a serious warning coming from someone other than me should resolve this chronic problem for good. --?²C ? 01:02, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

    He probably moved To the Max! to To the Max! (Max Roach album) because there are two other entities named To the Max. These lack the wow sign. But except for the punctuation (which is not pronounced) they are identical. It is reasonable to say "These are enough alike to constitute essentially the same title". It's a judgment call whether to ask for a Requested Move in a case like this. But a Requested Move means asking your colleagues to drop what they are doing and consider your question. You don't want to do it if you figure it's probably just a technical fix. So I can see someone going ahead and doing it, subject to a Requested Move discussion if someone objects. In ictu oculi moves a lot of pages, so some of these are going to be disputed.
    On the other hand, moving Bombay Mail to Bombay Mail (1934 film), are you sure he didn't do this to make room for an article on the actual Bombay Mail train or something? (Even if he did, he needs to say so in his move summaries). If not, this would be highly idiosyncratic and I'd be interested to hear about that. If there's a pattern of this kind of move (and not making way for a new article) then that's not good. Herostratus (talk) 01:29, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
    Herostratus, both situations mentioned by B2C are covered by WP:DIFFCAPS, a subsection of WP:AT IIO knows exists, and IIO knows a related-move can be seen as contentious. Although both titles are ambiguous, having To the Max! redirecting to To the Max! (Max Roach album), because there is no other "To the Max!" (in place of simply having a {{other uses}} or an {{About}}); and not creating an article about Bombay Mail train/office and preemptively moving it to "(1934 film)" when there is no other film with the same name are common problems with IIO. Bombay Mail (train) (recent redirect) just redirects to Howrah–Allahabad–Mumbai line where it is only mentioned as "he Mumbai-Howrah Mail via Allahabad is called Calcutta Mail between Mumbai and Allahabad, and Mumbai Mail (some still call it by its old name, Bombay Mail)". Other examples exist, they can be found on the public log, like Haco or Mercedes (film), Dt., or Nueva Era (this is just a redirection problem, but he never attempted to fix it), when enough time has past to have written an article to make disambiguation valid, but they solely are redirects to the article they were originally titled, or back in September when he moved Sivi Kingdom to Sivi (king), unexplained, despite the fact the article discusses more the kingdom than the homonym king, also note that he decided to move it to "Sivi (king)" and not to "King Sivi", "Sivi King" or "Kingdom of Sivi", which are more natural terms. The reason for a move I guess was to justify the move of Sivi to Sivi (film), but in itself you don't need to move A to justify B. And this is just for moving articles, there is another problem with IIO edit pattern and it is the notability of certain articles he creates. At WT:Notability, my talk page and WT:CDS are examples of what I'm talking about, but these aren't all the examples. Unfortunately I don't have all of them, but it is a start. © Tbhotch (en-2.5). 03:10, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
    I'm among editors who disagree with B2C's views on titling, as he says above. B2C's view against disambiguation and recognizability tend to be outliers, as his activity on guideline Talk pages shows.
    Occasionally we all get something wrong, and if there's a discussion or objection I listen and then that's easily resolved. I do a lot of work on disambiguation, and occasionally someone objects. Looking at the last ten:
    1. Wild Boy to Wild Boy (film) ([Wild Boy to Wild Boy (film) summary (https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&start=2017-03-12&end=2017-04-20&pages=Wild_Boy_(song)%7CWild_Boy%7CWild_Boy_(novel))
    Wild Boy 1934 film was getting 4 out of 72 views. A dab page was needed, can anyone see any problem with creation of a dab page here?
    2. Intrigue (film) to Intrigue (1947 film) summary (Intrigue (1942 film)
    There's also Intrigue (1942 film), per Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (films). Template:Edwin L. Marin updated, requires several hours for "what links here" to settle to allow other links to become visible.
    3. Bombay Mail to Bombay Mail (1934 film) summary (Bombay Mail (1935 film))
    As the summary says there is another film, WP:NCF, but there's also Bombay Mail (train), again Template:Edwin L. Marin updated, requires several hours for "what links here" to settle to allow other links to become visible.
    4. The Scandal to The Scandal (1923 film) summary (The Scandal (1934 film) The Scandal (1943 film))
    per Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (films) again
    5. The Mirage (film) to The Mirage (1920 film) see The Mirage (2015 film), a Canadian comedy-drama film
    per Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (films) again
    6. Sybil (book) to Sybil (Schreiber book) (Sybil (novel))
    The Disraeli "novel" is also a "book" Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (books)
    7. The Mirage (Al-Sarab) to The Mirage (Al-Suwaidi book)
    Per author name not Arabic word for "The Mirage", Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (books)
    8. Metahistory to Metahistory (Hayden White) (the term was in use decades before the book)
    The problem here were mislinks to 1973 book from the adjective metahistorical and generic term metahistory. The 1973 book Metahistory: The Historical Imagination in Nineteenth-century Europe is an important book, but a book about metahistory, not the subject itself.
    9. Haunted London (1973) to Haunted London (Underwood book)
    We don't disambiguate by year Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (books)
    10. To the Max! to Talk:To the Max! (Max Roach album) (not always found with !)
    As already reverted and not contested. The context not mentioned above is that this was a third album after To the Max to To the Max (Con Funk Shun album) and To the Max (album) to To the Max (The Mentors album). These were clearly mistitled per WP:NCM. The ! isn't found in some sources per Drummin' Men: The Heartbeat of Jazz The Bebop Years by Burt Koral, but whatever that was an afterthought, the main job was fixing the partial disambiguation of two (or three) albums.
    We could go on to review the last 100 moves related to disambiguation or dab pages I have created or expanded. No need to stop at the last 10, but is the work of correcting incomplete titles contrary to naming conventions per se a bad thing? If it is tell me and I'll cease contributing to disambiguation pages. More than happy to do so if this work is not wanted by the editing community. I don't get paid, any more than the rest of you girls and guys. If it's not useful tell me. I'll go. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:16, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
    The thing here we can all agree is that if not about how useful or useless is your editing, it is about how you are doing your editing. With B2C's, this is the 5th or 6th user that has a complain about your editing pattern, how many users do you need to stop for a moment and ask to yourself "Am I doing this right?" Let's take Bombay Mail as the example here:
    You create Bombay Mail (1935 film), you move Bombay Mail (1934 film), and you created Bombay Mail (train). All OK but you missed one thing, which was the reason B2C could revert the move: you didn't create a disambiguation page. At least you now create an article to rely the disambiguation, months ago you used to move pages only because a similarly titled work existed and no single article was created. In this example, B2C moved the page back 3 hours later. Also, I'm quite sure you would have never created a disambiguation page and the base title would have been a redirect until someone else noticed it, like when this took 2 months, or this 9 months, or when you moved Haco, and it still redirecting to its previous article, or dozens of similar examples that you have not fixed, but instead of fixing them, you move to another article to continue doing the same. Or even worse, doing moves like this or this with no single reason given. © Tbhotch (en-2.5). 16:54, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
    @Tbhotch: I can confirm that I have run across instances where IIO has moved a page to a title with a disambiguator, but in the process, doesn't create a disambiguation page. However, this wasn't always the case: The lack of creating disambiguation pages may be a recently-developing issue. I recall a few years ago, IIO moved quite a few song or album related pages from base titles to tiles with disambiguators and then created disambiguation pages at the leftover redirect's base title. However, such disambiguation pages were created before the consensus was established declaring that if an article about a song or album is the only article by that name that exists on Misplaced Pages, then it should be at the base title. (I can't recall where that guideline is at the moment, but I am sure you know what in referring to since I think we've crossed each other's paths regarding this in the past.) Steel1943 (talk) 17:22, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
    (edit conflict, responding to the original complaint and User:Tbhotch) -- I am confused. IIO did construct another meaning for "Bombay Mail" -- "Bombay Mail (train)". It is just a redirect, true, but so? He had to move the article to make room for the redirect.
    The original complaint implied that IIO moved "Bombay Mail" to a title with meaningless, unnecessary disambiguation. Here I was all "Whaaat? What's wrong with IIO, to do something like that?"
    But that's not the deal at all. So can we get our facts straight please.
    So now that complaint seems to come down to "IIO created a redirect, and I wish he hadn't". I mean, I guess you could take it to Redirects for Discussion, and maybe that's where that discussion should happen rather than here.
    And there are two films named "Bombay Mail", one made in 1934 and one in 1935. Right? That is what IMDb says. So is it really so terrible to name your article "Bombay Mail (1934 film)" instead of "Bombay Mail (film)", considering that there is another film of that name with which a reader might get confused? True, it's not precisely correct (Unless IIO is planning to create an article on the other film) and that does matter.
    As to "there is another problem with IIO edit pattern and it is the notability of certain articles he creates"... isn't this getting a little bit scattershot here? Can we stick to one thing maybe.
    So what is the desired end here? "IIO must initiate a Requested Move discussion for any and all moves"? And maybe that would be fine and is necessary. The claim is that there's a general pattern of misfeasance. I don't see it in those two tiny examples, but if there's a pattern it ought to come out with a little investigation. Can we get some actual examples of actual specific wrongdoing? This would help. Herostratus (talk) 06:53, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
    Why sticking to one thing at the time? Sticking to one problem at the time is the reason why this edit pattern has not been revised, checked or even penalized through either ANI or even his ArbCom discussion, and how he has been being WP:GAMING since circa 2012. I literally gave you a link of how he in 2013 was trying to WP:POINT the speedy deletion criteria, something he still doing, yet I'm being a "little bit scattershot". Like you want me to open below a subsection of how he has been creating BLP WP:A7 articles before and after that CSD discussion, because I can do that. Or maybe you do not want me to do it because apparently we humans cannot focus in more than one problem at the same time. © Tbhotch (en-2.5). 14:59, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Herostratus, the problem is not with IIO creating another meaning for "Bombay Mail" (a redirect named Bombay Mail (train) that redirects to Howrah–Allahabad–Mumbai line), but with him unilaterally (without discussion or RM) moving the article previously at Bombay Mail to Bombay Mail (1934 film) (it has since been reverted). The list above is just a list of a couple of recent examples. It was not mean to be exhaustive, but he does this stuff all the time. IIO shows little respect for the need to let others weigh in on these decisions; he does not recognize that his opinion on these matters is often contrary to that of the community. --?²C ? 16:30, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

    (edit conflict) Note: Born2cycle's opening comment could give the impression that I have opened a thread about In ictu oculi at ANI before, in 2012, but this is not the case; instead my original comment was being quoted by another editor there. If you look at IIO's response to what I originally wrote, it's apparent that there wasn't really a dispute. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 07:07, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

    My apologies. I did not realize you were being quoted there. I've stricken the reference to you and corrected it. --B²C ? 16:10, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
    • I'm also worried about In ictu oculi often renaming pages when unwarranted, and also disregarding WP:PRIMARYTOPIC as Born2cycle noted below. Extra DAB's in certain cases simply don't help at all and very needlessly go against WP:CONCISE. It might be a case of WP:IDHT in certain instances. Snuggums (talk / edits) 14:32, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

    Let's look at one case, and extrapolate from there

    OK. The case of "Haco" is mentioned above. Let's leave "Bombay Mail" out of it because it's recent and articles are just now being created, so it's muddied; let's look at "Haco" instead.

    It's just one case, but the assertion is made that this is typical. So let's start there anyway.

    OK, the article Haco existed, being created 2006. It is about a singer.

    On March 10 2017, In ictu oculi [created the redirect Haco (king). It redirects to Haki, and indeed that article gives "Haco" as an alternative name for that king, and has for many years. So OK so far.

    One minute later on March 10 2017, In ictu oculi moved "Haco" to "Haco (singer)", which automatically left "Haco" as a redirect to "Haco (singer)". OK so far.

    In ictu oculi now had a choice to make. He could rewrite Haco as a disambiguation page, pointing to the article Haco (singer) and the redirect Haco (king), and possibly adding in Haco V (a redirect to Haakon V of Norway which has existed since 2005) and so forth, and possibly with a "See also" section mentioning Hako (disambiguation) and so forth.

    Or he could have figured that Haco (king) is the primary topic, and rewritten Haco to redirect there. Or he could have figured that Haco (singer) is the primary topic, in which case he should have not moved Haco (or moved it back if, after consideration, he concluded that the singer is the primary topic). In either case, if In ictu oculi thought that there was a primary topic, then the primary topic -- either the article about the singer, or the redirect to the king -- should have been named "Haco", and so his series of moves and article namings should have been different.

    But in any case, In ictu oculi -- if he wasn't going to create a disambiguation page -- should have added a hatnote to Haco (singer). This he did not do, as can be shown by this history. This was an error of omission.

    Couple secondary detail points

    (In ictu oculi did edit the (already existing) hatnote at Haki (which is now the target of Haki (king)), but only to change it from "for the village in Iran see Haki, Iran" to "This article is about King Hake. For the village in Iran, see Haki, Iran. For railway station in Japan, see Haki Station." (So no mention of "Haco (king)" which is OK, since "Haco (king)" does not redirect to "Haki"; if it did, a "Haco (king) redirects here..." note might have been in order. So this edit it OK, it neither breaks nor fixes anything, its just something In ictu oculi did while he was in the area I assume.))

    (This shows that seven pages link to Haco, which is a redirect page, while according to this only one non-redirect page targets Haco (singer). So the assumption is that link cleanup was not done. So this is likely another error of omission. It's not a capital crime, I have forgotten to do this myself on (rare) occasion and I think maybe bots clean this up (not sure). But still.)

    All this strikes me as rather odd. With no disambiguation page and no hatnote at Haco (singer), there isn't any way for a reader to access Haco (king) (and thereby Haki, if they know him as Haco). Yes sure she can type "Haco king" in the search box, but that's unnatural; more likely would be "king haco" or "haco of norway" or perhaps "haco mythology" or "haco norse" or "haco ynglinga" -- none of which will lead to reader the desired goal, Haki. (Haco (king) has no incoming links.)

    So this looks like a sub-optimal job. I don't see the gain. Neither is it terrible -- the ability of readers to get to where the want to is neither lessened nor increased, nor has any data been added or lost. It's a wash, but it did end with Haco now being at Haco (singer) when this isn't strictly necessary -- it follows from the decision to make no dab page and no hatnote at Haco (singer) that there was no reason to move Haco to Haco (singer) if nothing was going to be done with Haco (king). Haco (king), floating in limbo as it does, does not impinge on Haco continuing to be an article about the singer instead of a redirect to the article about the singer.

    You have to understand that unnecessary disambiguation drives people bonkers, and it is against our rules. I couldn't care much less, but for Haco (singer) to exist at that title when it could remain at just Haco makes some people claw the draperies -- and they do have the rules and accepted practice on their side, without question. Since they do, asking the admin corps for backup is reasonable IMO.

    No move was made wrongly, nor was there a case where a Requested Move should have been initiated instead of just moving stuff. Rather, the problem is that the moves were fine, but failing to make dab, or even a hatnote, afterwards is not OK. (Also link cleanup was not done apparently). This is not exactly just a content dispute, but a failure to follow optimal procedure.

    Coming into this analysis with no preconception, I do see where at least in this one case its problematical. As I said above, the assertion is this case is typical normal for In ictu oculi, and he doesn't care to follow optimal procedure, and some sort of warning or injunction about this is requested.

    So In ictu oculi, what's the deal here? Did I miss something, or what? Or was this case exceptional? Herostratus (talk) 20:25, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

    Good analysis and I hope you can now appreciate how time consuming this is. If you take almost any one of IIO's unilateral moves like this one in isolation it appears to be contrary to policy but not that serious; it's the pattern of doing this repeatedly that's the issue. You also hit upon a key point: "You have to understand that unnecessary disambiguation drives people bonkers, and it is against our rules." IIO demonstrates no respect for this community consensus viewpoint and others too (e.g., he seems to barely recognize WP:PRIMARYTOPIC). Consistently and repeatedly. This is why I think he should stop making these moves. His judgement is off relative to community consensus. He can argue my judgement is off too on these matters, in the other direction. And I concede it might be - but that's why I tend to not make unilateral moves. He should too. --В²C ☎ 21:43, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
    I reverted the move of Haco to Haco (singer) . --В²C ☎ 22:31, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
    The info above is incorrect. This was originally a redirect to the Norwegian king, the insertion of the Japanese singer is a more recent addition, see Talk page of article. @Herostratus: as the summary says "Haco (king) see books" "Haco was" in Google Books. It's too far back to recall but typically if I didn't create a dab immediately it was because I was giving opportunity to anyone involved in the article to revert and let any link and templates settle. And then it was peacefully reverted and I didn't make any drama. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:46, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    Wow. Could you possibly be more cryptic? No. Is that an oversight or are you leaving a modicum of CYA defense while hoping to not draw any attention? That aside, so what your comment summary meant was that moving the Japanese singer from the base name is justified due to the existence of the reference to the king as "Haco" as shown by searching for Haco in Google Books? Well, the Japanese singer has been at this base name title since 2011. Again, just like in the Bombay Mail case below, you don't even bother asking the primary topic questions let alone getting the community to answer before you start moving. More evidence supporting this proposal. --В²C ☎ 13:35, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

    But look at Bombay Mail closer because it's a good example

    Now, here's the point. These are both relatively obscure films, but between them, on the English WP, the American film is likely to be a bonafide WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Likely enough that no one should unilaterally decide it's not. But IIO did, and moved the article accordingly. Again, taken in isolation it's not a horrible crime, but he does this stuff all the time, and needs to stop. --В²C ☎ 23:39, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

    I dunno; reading that, my first thought was "train, ship, plane, or service?"...and it turns out it's all four. This was, and is, with a couple of m/b shifts, a ship route, the eponymous cargo, the train and a possibly even flying boat route. I expect, seriously, that the post service is far more important historically than either film. Disambguating them out seems a good call. Anmccaff (talk) 00:13, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
    Except he left Bombay Mail as a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to Bombay Mail (1934 film), implying it is the primary topic. Well, if it is, then it shouldn't be disambiguated. But there are good arguments to made, as you did, that maybe there is no primary topic. That's the point; the issue of whether it is the primary topic is obviously potentially controversial, and precisely what needs to be determined, and that's why we have WP:RM, to make these determinations. It should not be determined unilaterally. You can't just look at each of these in isolation to see the pattern. --В²C ☎ 00:37, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
    Because as has been explained before (a) it takes time for templates to adjust, (b) it allows yourself to follow me. I didn't delay so much before you started this. Bombay Mail is a pretty typical example of there being one major topic Bombay Mail (train) and two minor topics Bombay Mail (1934 film) and Bombay Mail (1935 film) the only thing preventing a dab page has been yourself. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:54, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    Nobody including me is preventing you or anyone else from creating the dab page at Bombay Mail (disambiguation). And it's not me preventing the dab page at the base name, In ictu oculi, it's the consensus-supported concept of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC that's preventing it, a concept for which you have shown little if any regard. In this case as in many there may or may not be a primary topic. Do reliable English sources ever even refer to the IIO-linked train as "Bombay Mail"? Even if they do how likely is a user searching with "Bombay Mail" to be looking for the train or either of the films? These are questions you don't even seem to bother asking let alone try to get an answer from the community before moving articles affected by these answers. Sadly, that's why you need to be kept from unilaterally moving articles titles. --В²C ☎ 13:19, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

    Closer look at A True Woman

    Tbhotch linked to this this above; let's take a closer look.

    Is the relatively obscure book better known by its American title The Heart of a Woman, then by it's British title, A True Woman? Perhaps, but since the former requires disambiguation (conflict with Maya Angela book with same title), why not leave it at the latter? Well, if you prefer "more informative" titles, as IIO does, then the move makes sense. For him. So does making the move when you know if you put it up to an RM it's likely to get rejected, but if you do it unilaterally it might not get noticed (as it did not in this case for almost a year). I don't want to speculate about IIO's true motives, which even he might not be fully aware of, but the bottom line is that this is not a slam dunk rename. It's obviously potentially controversial, and IIO should know this, and know better than to make such moves. --В²C ☎ 00:37, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

    I'd have expected there was a guideline for this, that might be modified in occasional cases -MBE (as opposed to my own favorite, MBP). I'd also expect that a book by a prominent, if adopted, British author would go by the title published by in London, rather than New York. I think someone would have to make the case pretty strongly for it to be otherwise.
    On the other hand "might not get noticed" does cut both ways, it implies that this is a bit of a coin-toss. Anmccaff (talk) 01:56, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
    Anmccaff, it "might not get noticed" because it's an obscure article with few if any watchers. And even if it is a coin-toss, that means it can go either way, indicating it is potentially controversial. Precisely the kind of decision that should go to RM - not made unilaterally by one editor, let alone by one with a reputation for often having opinions contrary to community consensus on such matters. --В²C ☎ 17:54, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
    Out of 10,000s of edits you are going back 12 months to April 2016? This is a level of forensic investigation that no active volunteer on the encyclopedia could pass. Yes Google Books indicates that the American title is better known, possibly because it is still in print in this title but out of print in the UK one. But really 12 months ago? Out of 10,000s of edits? A more common US title is suddenly urgent enough for ANI? In ictu oculi (talk) 12:57, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    There is no CSI "forensic investigation" drama over here. The Heart of a Woman was the TFA for April 4, 2017. The original article included links to two unrelated albums, so I changed to to the dab page that already existed. There I noticed the weird title "The Heart of a Woman (Baroness Orczy novel)" as we shouldn't be using royal titles for disambiguations. Then clicking the article you find that A) it starts with "A True Woman (US Title The Heart of a Woman)", B) the infobox says "A True Woman" and it includes a book cover with this title, so why it had a different title? I didn't had to go further to know why. It doesn't matter if "Google Books indicates that the American title is better known". This is a British book by a British author, and WP:RETAIN applies. Otherwise Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone is to be titles Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. This is the exact thing B2C is complaining (and others below not completely understanding), that you decide by yourself over and over again how to title articles ignoring policies and guidelines when convenient for you. WP:NCBOOKS, a guide you already knew by then, would have suggested "The Heart of a Woman (Orczy novel)", assuming it was a needed move, and any normal editor would have asked if original English titles are to be used over adapted English titles. The same applies to Sivi below. © Tbhotch (en-2.5). 17:22, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

    Closer look at Sivi

    Tbhotch also linked to this above.

    No corresponding adjustments seem to have been made either. For example, the Sivi dab page still links to Sivi Kingdom (not to Sivi (king)). But wait, the plot thickens.

    Now, if we look at the relevant page view stats it's obvious that a strong argument can be made that the film (now at Sivi (film)) is the primary topic and should have remained at the base name, Sivi.

    Again, all this is for the community to decide, in a proper WP:RM. It's not for IIO or anyone else to make these decisions unilaterally. It's about the pattern. He needs to be told to stop. --В²C ☎ 01:14, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

    September 20, 2016? 10 months ago? Again, how did you find this needle in the haystack? Before the minor Tamil horror was created, Sivi would have lead searchers to Sivi the king in the epic Mahabharata. look in books "Sivi" + India refers to "good king Sivi" "fabled king Sivi", 4000 results the 2007 Tamil horror film directed by K. R. Senthil Natha gets no book hits at all. It's simply in the wrong place squatting on a reasonably well known character in India's national epic. Do you see any India project editors objecting to the film being titled (film)? In ictu oculi (talk) 13:05, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    In ictu oculi, as noted at the top of this subsection, Tbhotch linked to this even further above, presumably from memory. I didn't find it. Your final sentence speaks volumes. Instead of assessing per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC criteria, you think whether "India project editors" object is how one should decide whether a given move is justified. If nobody notices and you get away with it says anything, then it's all good, right? --В²C ☎ 16:54, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

    Move to WP:AN?

    Born2cycle, the thread is going to be archived very soon. This message that I'm writing would stall the archiving of this thread. May I move the thread to WP:AN please for bigger attention? George Ho (talk) 17:29, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

    No George Ho, you may not move the thread to AN. This is the correct venue; AN isn't. In addition, AN gets less attention than ANI. Softlavender (talk) 13:07, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Thanks George Ho, but I think this is the right place. Not sure what to do here. We could provide (many) more examples of the disruptive behavior, but I don't know if that will help. --В²C ☎ 18:29, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    Hmm... titles are getting messier. Discussion about titling the Fabergé eggs, which doesn't involve IIO, led to using parentheses for precision (via parenthetical disambiguation?). Also, after the discussion about notability and ambiguity at the "Notability" talk page, I see IIO expanding some articles, including ones that he started: . Conflicting principles are... weirder or entangled or something? But actions based on such principles... I think there's enough evidence of his renaming things. As said before, I don't want to get too involved in IIO's contributions, especially after the Faberge egg discussion. However, I see the proposal below, but I'll hold off until I'm ready to comment there. --George Ho (talk) 18:46, 1 May 2017 (UTC); already did. 01:40, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

    Informal Collaborator

    I just found a note on In ictu oculi's talk page asking him about his unexplained/undiscussed move of Informal collaborator to Informal collaborator (East Germany) . Typical. I reverted it. . --В²C ☎ 05:12, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

    In fact when you check the history of the article you will realize that that this was a revert to the longstanding title of the article which was only recently changed. WP:BRD covers this case. The next revert (yours) goes into editwaring territory. The change to Informal collaborator should have been subject to a WP:RM. Agathoclea (talk) 07:35, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    Agathoclea is probably correct in this case, User:Born2cycle To go over the sequence of events.
    And, you know, fine. It was just a second reversion, things happen fast here, it was different editor who made the first move, it's hard to always do the exact right thing by the letter, sometimes one forgets to check the move log, and so forth.
    But here's thing: you stand by this and avow that you'd do it again. That's very different from "Oops, sorry".
    At User talk:In ictu oculi#Your "informal collaborator" move, we've discussed the title of this article. My conclusion is that possibly "Stasi informers" would possibly be the best title, but that Informal collaborators (East Germany) would be at any rate be more informative than Informal collaborators... it's all at that linked thread. It's a point that reasonable people could disagree on and discuss, and to your credit you have engaged and explained your thinking.
    But you appear to be standing by your point "I am correct, period, and thus justified in rolling back".
    As far as I know, we're only allowed to edit war on WP:BLP grounds. Expanding that to "WP:BLP, and titles with parenthetical elucidation further explaining what the article is about" would be a hard sell I think. Herostratus (talk) 20:49, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    Born2cycle's move was the first reversion, not the second, given that In ictu oculi changed the article to a different name than the original one. Also, I didn't think my page move was that bold, since putting "(East Germany)" at the end of a name that doesn't require disambiguation is a clear violation of Misplaced Pages naming conventions. My rename was an obvious fix. Korny O'Near (talk) 21:19, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    Welp OK then. "Obvious fix", okey-doke. Herostratus (talk) 22:36, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    Herostratus and Agathoclea I can understand your reaction to my choice to revert in this case, but there are a few missing key pieces. I'll copy and update Herostratus's timeline accordingly.
    • The article was created in October 2014‎ by User:Charles01, under the name Informal collaborators (East Germany), and it kept that title for 2+ years.
    • On 17 October 2016, User:In ictu oculi ignores (deletes without responding, not even in the comment summary) a warning on his talk page to stop making unilateral potentially controversial moves.
    • On 16 February 2017‎, User:Korny O'Near WP:BOLDly moved the article to Informal collaborator with an edit summary of "Simplified name - no need for disambiguation", and fine.
    • On 20 April 2017, User:In ictu oculi moved the article to Informal collaborator (East Germany) with an edit summary of "revert move". This would probably be proper under WP:BRD, and of course the next step under WP:BRD is to go to discussion. (IMO FWIW User:In ictu oculi should have have been less terse.)
    • On 24 April 2017, User:In ictu oculi moved the article Easta to Easter (Kyary Pamyu Pamyu song) without discussion or explanation.
    • On 24 April 2017, User:Born2cycle reverts the undiscussed move of Easta after leaving an explanation on the talk page before and after the revert.
    • On 26 April 2017, IIO again ignores yet another warning on his talk page to stop making unilateral potentially controversial moves by deleting it without response.
    • On 26 April 2017, User:Born2cycle notifies IIO about this AN/I on his talk page .
    • On 1 May 2017, User: Korny O'Near inquires about IIO's move on IIO's talk page .
    • On 1 May 2017, after seeing the inquiry from User:Korny O'Near, User:Born2cycle reverts IIO's unexplained/undiscussed 26 April move, with an edit summary of "Revert undiscussed/unjustified move, and notes accordingly on IIO's talk page (so not without discussion as previously accused).
    As I noted below, if it was anyone else I almost certainly would not have reverted IIO's 27 April move so quickly (if at all). It's fallout from repeated similar behavior on his part, and his ignoring repeated reminders that he not engage in this disruptive behavior. Maybe this one time it was arguably a legitimate revert on his part, but given his reputation (read the Support !votes here), I hope my choice is understandable. That said, I hear what you're saying and I'll try to be less hasty next time, even with IIO. --В²C ☎ 00:35, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    Normally an issue related to an article is best copied to and discussed on the Talk page of the article, however with User:Born2cycle because they relate to his own positions on titling, I have moved his messages back from my Talk page to his own Talk page rather than the article. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:49, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    In ictu oculi: We've spoken about this before, and the customary place to raise problems with your edits is your talk page. It's hard not to see your refusal to discuss things there as an evasion.--Cúchullain /c 14:03, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    I believe the customary place to discuss edits to an article is the Talk page of the article. In this case for example the actual creator of the article who has expressed a preference for his title (which I restored) is on the article Talk page. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:49, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    Another example: Tokin

    Perusing IIO's talk page I found this interesting section: User_talk:In_ictu_oculi#Move_of_Tokin_to_Tokin_.28headwear.29 from the end of March. Yet another example of a dubious move by IIO with no justification/explanation (and certainly no discussion), an inquiry from a user (Nihonjoe), again very cryptic responses from IIO, until finally Nihonjoe essentially shrugs his shoulders ("It's fine"). Can't really blame him, but now we have yet another case where we have a dab page instead of the primary topic at the base name. Instead of reverting it, since there was some discussion (albeit after the move), I went ahead and created an RM request for this one: Talk:Tokin_(headwear)#Requested move 4 May 2017. --В²C ☎ 21:38, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

    Another example: James Taylor at Christmas

    So the lowest fruit on this tree can be found on IIO's talk page, it turns out.

    By the way, IIO also edited the At Christmas dab page, changing the references to the article accordingly . Nobody ever undid this, until I just did.

    Not only are there countless examples of these unilateral moves, so many of them demonstrate bad judgement. Being BOLD is one thing, but this is ridiculous, and causes a lot of work for a lot of people. --В²C ☎ 22:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

    This seems to have been tied to In ictu oculi's move of At Christmas (album) to At Christmas (Sara Evans album), which I've just reverted. In short, it looks like he moved the James Taylor article to an incorrect title to justify adding additional disambiguation to the Sara Evans album (and created a incomplete dab issue by not redirecting At Christmas (album) to the dab page). This is unfortunately a pattern; last year he created Toil (Tolstoy book) to justify moving Toil (album); as it turns out the book is not by Tolstoy and is not titled "Toil". Cleaning that up considerable work. It's disappointing to see that this habit has continued.--Cúchullain /c 15:28, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

    OK User:Born2cycle but I have a couple questions. One thing is -- a person moved an article. I mean OK, maybe they should have initiated an RM. But isn't WP:BOLD in play? Moves are harder to undo so I can certainly see an argument that its not. So I don't know, I'm just asking. If not, maybe we should write this down somewhere, if it isn't already.

    The other thing is, how do you know that it is James Taylor at Christmas and not At Christmas (James Taylor album)? I'm asking. User:Kellymoat seemed pretty sure ("The actual title is James Taylor at Christmas"). The cover does indeed say "James Taylor at Christmas". How is it different from At Christmas (album)? The cover of that says "Sara Evens At Christmas". Is it the capitalization of "at"? I'm asking.

    Why is it Greatest Hits (Spice Girls album) when the cover says "Spice Girls Greatest Hits"? I don't know. It looks like a lot of album articles don't start out with the artis'ss name. I guess that's because the artist's name is usually there to tell the person buying the record who made it rather than being part of the title.

    I guess in this case it is different? Is it the lowercase "a"? But a lot of albums use various kinds of typographies, all caps or whatever. Is it that "X at Christmas" makes a grammatical sentence? In that case shouldn't Go Girl Crazy! be "The Dictators Go Girl Crazy!"? On the Threshold of a Dream -> "The Moody Blues On the Threshold of a Dream" and so forth? "Spice Girls Greatest Hits". But then we do have The Monkees Present not "Present (Monkees album)". So it's messy I guess.

    But so anyway:

    • A person moved James Taylor at Christmas to At Christmas (James Taylor album).
    • Another person didn't like that and inquired at the first person's talk page. (They could have brought it up at the article talk page, possibly filed an RM, but OK it's all good)
    • No reply after a while, so moved it back.
    • Bob's your uncle.

    What's the problem? Looks like it worked out, to me. It's only a problem if James Taylor at Christmas is so obviously correct that only a moron, troll, or madman could think otherwise. Is it? Herostratus (talk) 22:37, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

    FWIW, Discogs (which is my personal usual go-to source for album info, although I don't know how much weight they really carry) has it as "At Christmas" (you can tell that they don't consider "James Taylor (2)" to be part of the title. If they did they would have it as "James Taylor - James Taylor At Christmas". Compare Jan And Dean Meet Batman, where they do consider the artist name to be part of the title -- it says "Jan And Dean ‎– Jan And Dean Meet Batman".) Just to point another reason why the complaint, which seems to come down to "Look what he did, he again made a move that just obviously wrong" is arguable. Herostratus (talk) 23:35, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

    Update: However, AllMusic definately goes with "James Taylor at Christmas". Amazon also appears to be in that camp -- or are they? I think Target and Barnes & Noble are though. And the James Taylor official site! And I think others. But not WalMart.

    Oddly, we have James Taylor: A Christmas Album but A Christmas Album (Barbra Streisand album) and A Christmas Album (Amy Grant album) and A Christmas Album (Bright Eyes album). So maybe it's a James Taylor thing. Which doesn't affect the Italians. Herostratus (talk) 00:26, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    Herostratus, it would be helpful if you read WP:RM. The main thing is that BOLD does not apply to moves if the move is "potentially controversial". When sources don't agree is one situation where you need an RM discussion to work it out, as a move without such discussion is potentially controversial. If somebody does a unilateral move once, it's not that big of a deal. If someone has a history of doing so, and has been reminded multiple times by multiple people that it's a policy violation but keeps doing it, that's a problem and why we're here. Its a problem not only because it's against policy but also because it sets misleading precedents and creates work for others. It's not that IIO is necessarily wrong in all of these unilateral move decisions, it's that they're not his decisions to make (that he has a history of often getting them wrong, doesn't help). Does that make sense? --В²C ☎ 04:48, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    Yes, some. But WP:RMUM (part of WP:RM) says "Anyone can be bold and move a page without discussing it first and gaining an explicit consensus on the talk page. If you consider such a move to be controversial, and the new title has not been in place for a long time, you may revert the move... Move wars are disruptive, so if you make a bold move and it is reverted, do not make the move again. Instead, follow the procedures laid out in § Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves.". It is true that WP:RM#CM (which comes later) says "The discussion process is used for potentially controversial moves. The move is potentially controversial if... Someone could reasonably disagree with the move."
    So I dunno. It says two different, contradictory things, actually. The language could be tightened up too. You could read it as WP:RMUM being the controlling authority, sending people to WP:RM#CM if your bold move is reverted. Or it would certainly be reasonable read WP:RM#CM as at least indicating to use it right away if someone could reasonably disagree with the move. This would be common sense I think.
    Here's how it worked for me recently regarding John Hancock Tower:
    • It had been at John Hancock Tower a long time (looking at the log, I now see had gone though a quick move-revert cycle in 2016, but that doesn't matter)
    • An editor (with his first edit FWIW) WP:BOLDly moved it to "200 Clarendon Street" in February 2017, with an edit summary of "The name of the building has changed to 200 Clarendon Street"
    • Noticing this in April 2017, I moved it back (per WP:BRD), with an edit summary "What the name is is debatable, but it was apparently moved with no discussion. Let's move it back and have a discussion". And then I opened a discussion -- an advisory RM, here: Talk:John Hancock Tower#Requested move 23 April 2017, which I believe is the proper next step. Note that I opposed the move as nominator -- that's what an advisory nomination means. IMO an RM is (or sometimes can be) an invitation to talk and learn, not necessarily a courtroom of prosecution and defense. So I don't need to support the proposition in order to open the discussion. I could have been Neutral also.
    • Nobody came -- including the original page mover -- so after I while I closed the RM myself and end of story. (Somebody might have come and said "No, it should be 200 Clarendon Street, because and ", and won the day. Would I have been upset? Of course not. It's a win for the project to get things correct is what matters.)
    Anyway, this was easy. I didn't get upset or break a sweat. Yes it took a few minutes, but I could have made it pretty short by just saying "Moved, reverted per WP:BRD, advocates for the other name invited to make their case here". Takes 20 seconds. I could make up a template to paste in if I was doing it a lot, I guess.
    Yes I had to wait a week for resolution. Oh well, that doesn't matter. But I don't move pages much. I can see how it would be a problem if it's holding up other work.
    I mean, OK. If this user was doing this to dozens of articles a week and I was rolling them all back that would possibly be annoying. Yes I can see approaching him and saying "Look, I'm going to roll back every move you do and put it to RM. Would you mind just sending your desired moves to RM first, to save me that step"? and if they wouldn't, yeah that would suck. So I haven't walked a mile in your shoes. So I'm reluctant to criticize anyone when I haven't walked their path. Herostratus (talk) 05:31, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    As someone whose attempts to speak to IIO about such problems resulted in little change and eventually a request not to comment on his talk page anymore, I can confirm that it really is frustrating. The bigger problem with this particular move to me is that there was no reason for it, it was just a justification for adding more disambiguation to another article. Moving articles to inferior, uncommon, and even just plain wrong titles is a pattern with IIO; it's at least the 4th I can recall; 2 others came in the past year, and I'm willing to bet there are others. It's a small percentage of his many edits, but it's still 4 articles that a not insignificant amount of time and effort to clean up, for no reason other that to justify IIO's titling preferences.--Cúchullain /c 15:43, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Thanks for that, Herostratus. WP:RMUM probably should be clarified to say "Anyone who has no reason to believe a particular title change might be controversial can be bold and move a page without discussing it first..." to be consistent with the other section. Among editors experienced with RM this is how it's generally understood. --В²C ☎ 16:18, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    Submergence

    So I just went to WP:RM and at the top I find this request:

    ===May 8, 2017===

    Immediately, I suspected... Sure enough, in the history of the current Submergence dab page is IIO's signature.

    As usual, IIO demonstrates no interest in questioning how often people look for the vehicle using "submergence", whether one or the other is a primary topic, whether it's even appropriate to create a two-entry dab page in this case, especially when one of the two entries is partial dab, much less discuss these questions with his colleagues.

    IIO's unilateral decisions in this area create a lot of work for others, as in this case where somebody didn't notice the problem until 8 months later, and now we have to have an RM discussion about undoing what he did, instead of discussing it first. --В²C ☎ 19:01, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    Well yeah. I see what you're saying.
    On the other hand, the concept of Submersion is a very big deal... having do with submarines, sea diving, coastal archeology, and more.... and closely related to Immersion, also a huge deal. And Submergence is close to this... I would be surprised if many searchers on "Submergence" weren't looking for Submersion. These are two words with very similar construction and meaning, easy to confuse.
    Against this, Submergence (film) is just a movie. Not out yet, it may tank and be forgotten. Even if not, in the long term is it the dominant subject? (Page views right now and for the next few years will probably be elevated, true.)
    So IMO it is useful in some way to open a conversation about this. IIO's method of doing so is to just move stuff. Since this is demonstrated to be driving you (and apparently some other editors) to claw at the draperies, it's probably not a good approach, since it is leading to contention. Even if he was justified (which maybe) it is causing contention, on at least reasonable grounds, so he should stop. Whether he should be just advised to do so or enjoined from doing so is above my pay grade.
    But just to point out, on the merits he has reasonable case. I would have done similar maybe. IMO the dab page would point maybe to the two items "Submergence (film)" and "Submersion", and the wiktionary link, and maybe Deep-submergence vehicle and Deep-submergence rescue vehicle too although those could be a See Also, I dunno. 'course, I like dab pages.
    But one way or the other, just leaving the yet-to-be-released-and-may-tank film as the main meaning for "Submergence"... not too sure about that. Maybe. Matter of opinion, I guess... pageview stats could offer some enlightenment. So anyway IIO is to be credited for getting things moving. I do agree that he needs to do it opening an conversation though. Herostratus (talk) 20:29, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    As I wrote elsewhere recently, the issue is not that IIO's unilateral decisions are always wrong, it's that he's making decisions (alone) that are not his (alone) to make. Once an article is at a title changing that title is much more likely than not to be contentious. After all, somebody put it that original title, likely with some thought and consideration. Perhaps things have changed and there are other uses to consider now, but the original article might still be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. These are issues that by definition are supposed to be decided by consensus in an RM discussion. As to your points about this particular case, you might want to make them at the actual RM. --В²C ☎ 22:47, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    Proposal: ban In ictu oculi from moving articles without going through RM

    Proposal: Per the above discussions In ictu oculi doesn't recognize or ignores when article moves are potentially controversial and does it often enough for it to be disruptive. In addition, he tends to create unnecessary and trivial dab pages. I hereby propose an indefinite ban on In ictu oculi from moving articles (changing titles) without going through the process at WP:RM.

    Noticed this after reading Tbhotch's !vote below, so commenting. (1) is a reasonable exception, but (2) falls outside the proposed parameters of the ban, which is about "moving articles". If what is meant is publishing userspace drafts, then it should be a given that it is an exception, as moving it out of the userspace is the first time it is given its "article title"; if it refers to non-articles in the userspace, it is already not covered, as B2C's proposal relates to articles, not user pages. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:58, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    Yeah, (2) in SmokeyJoe's addendum is redundant since the original proposed restriction was not intended to prohibit moves from user space into article space for the first time (after all creating articles in article space is not prohibited so a copy/paste from user space to a new article in article space is clearly allowed and it's effectively the same thing as moving from user space except moving also retains history). But, whether an article is not an article while it's still in user space is something of a semantic thing and I don't see how redundant clarification can hurt. --В²C ☎ 00:33, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
    (2) Redundant with regard to your intent, but I've seen people get in trouble for violating unintended letter or words in ANI topic bands before, commonsense not invoked. Of course he can move and rename in his own userspace. Renaming draft articles in other's userspace, or others draftspace page would be a violation, broadly construing the proposed ban. (1) is important. There is no real intention to straitjacket IIO. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:55, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Oppose Bold moves of low-traffic pages has long been considered perfectly acceptable, and this seems to be the case with virtually all, if not all, the examples listed above. No page move is controversial until someone opposes it, so the moves in question would only be controversial if IIO was edit-warring over them, or was moving them against the consensus of a previous RM. I know from personal experience that IIO has more respect for discussion and consensus on these matters, and if anytging is overly careful when it comes to following the proper process. I seem to recall an incident from four years ago when I BOLDly moved a page, and a sockpuppet of the banned user JoshuSasori RMed the page back (because IPs and new accounts can't unilaterally undo page moves), and IIO, despite himself, actually supported the RM on procedural grounds, even hough he agreed with my unilateral move on the substance and knew that the OP was a sock. Forgive me if I'm misremembering; I'll find the exact diff if anyone needs it. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:44, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
      • I find the recent behaviour of IIO unexpected and out of character. It is as if he has tired of discussions and is no longer reading them. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:59, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    Yes @SmokeyJoe: I've dropped in to read them, but what can I do. It's the same couple of editors following me to pages they have no interest or involvement in and hunting for something from 10 months or a year ago to offend among 1,000s of edits. I can't win. If I wait for the templates to readjust and leave a decent period for someone following me to revert then I'm guilty of having not yet made the dab page, if I make the dab page I'm guilty of making the dab page. You can see from B2C's edit history that a substantial proportion of his limited contributions to article space are following my work. With the system being that repeated bites of the cherry will eventually "get" someone, what would you have me do, defend and justify in detail the last 1% of my dab work. Yes I'm tired, but more tired of having B2C's shadow. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:49, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    Wait ... what!? What about naming conventions? Our article titles are not all automatically perfect. If they can be improved, they should be. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:54, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    Incessant fiddling of titles, of article urls, in pursuit of the nebulous concept of perfection, especially when by editors with no interest in the actual articles concerned, is disruptive. Fiddling of the title, url, links, lengthy narrow-focus discussions, repeatedly, in the absence of a non-trivial good reason, is disruption. The relevant policy line is found at WP:TITLECHANGES. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    Perfection is a goal or direction, not a destination that can ever be actually reached. But the alternative to aiming for perfection is not aiming at all, but instead going every which way, haphazardly. It's chaos. And, in the context of WP titles, much more resource and time consuming. In this context we have two very different concepts of perfection: 1) every title meets WP:CRITERIA as well as possible, including concision and being recognizable to those familiar with the topic, or 2) every title is recognizable to everyone, even those who are not familiar with the topic. These two destinations are incompatible. From Chicago we cannot head towards both Portland, Oregon and Portland, Maine. And if some of us are trying to go to one while others to the other it's not going to be pretty, while those who are fine with staying in Chicago are going to wonder what all the bickering is about. I think trying to make every title recognizable to everyone is too nebulous a destination to even aim for. Not that WP:CRITERIA is perfect! But at least in most cases we get a solid answer out of it. With "make it fully recognizable to everyone" there are a myriad of valid choice for almost every title. It's unworkable. That's why I push us to aim CRITERIA compatibility. It's not perfection, but it's doable. --В²C ☎ 00:47, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    The operative word in WP:TITLECHANGES is "controversial". Nothing there applies to changes that are not already controversial before they are made. WP:AGF takes precedence here; unless it can be demonstrated that IIO probably knew that one or more of his changes would be controversial before he made them, then unilateral BOLD changes are not a problem meriting a formal sanction. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:24, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    I would have the ban with my exceptions apply to every user. BOLD page moves on old or other people's new pages is at least confronting, and worst disruptive. Better to ask the author for agreement, if they agree it will not be a unilateral bold page move. If it is old, lay out the one paragraph proposal in a formal RM, and encourage non-admins, even if involved, to close and enact all one week old unopposed RM proposals. An articulated rename proposal made after a week is way better that a bold move with no real explanation that anyone can respond to, short of this sort of drama. There are some few expert editors, particularly with DAB pages, who this shouldn't interfere with, but I think it is clear that IIO can attempt everything he wants to do more collegially by using the RM processes. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:09, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    "Better to ask the author for agreement, if they agree ..." – Totally inconsistent with WP:OWN, WP:EDITING, WP:BOLD.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  13:08, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Not at all,  User:SMcCandlish. It does assume that the author is the only other interested party. If they don't agree, use WP:RM. If they do, it's by agreement. EDITING and BOLD are not good for page moves. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:20, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Support until demonstrated While it is more work, better to set them up for success by restricting them to RM's then allowing to fail by either doing what they want or preventing them from moving at all. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 15:24, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Support, unfortunately. This has been a recurring problem for In ictu oculi for many years now, and it appears to be escalating. At the center of this is his idiosyncratic preference that most articles be given parenthetical disambiguation, which conflicts with how most others view the recommendations of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, WP:DAB, etc. He's been making undiscussed moves to unnecessarily disambiguated titles - and leaving the base name redirecting to the disambiguated form - since at least early 2014. He's said his intention is to allow others to object before creating a dab page, and to be fair he follows through in many cases, but in many others, the problematic title just remains in place forever. I've spoken to him about this, and many others have as well. I've also spoken to him about the fact that when he does create dab pages, he often (almost always) neglects to format them correctly. Unfortunately, In ictu doesn't take such discussions well; he accuses others of following him around, aggressive behavior, picking fights, and even stalking. I take this as an indication that he's avoiding the RM process and just unilaterally making controversial moves to avoid scrutiny. He's told me and others not to post on his talk page, so unfortunately dialog isn't going to resolve this issue and further steps are necessary. Considering the vast scope of the problem - there are likely thousands of articles that he's moved to problematic titles - I think it's wise to restrict In ictu's move privileges as proposed. This is unfortunate, as In ictu oculi is a valuable editor when working on article content, but this has been a problem for a very long time. His input will still be valuable to the RM process when he uses it.--Cúchullain /c 16:34, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Support, I once had a similar interaction with In ictu oculi, where my Patliputra Medical College and Hospital page move was reverted by In ictu oculi because it "appeared" to them that there exists another college with a similar name. I requested them to provide a source for the same and after recieving no reply, I reverted their page move. Now having read the thread and gone through contributions of In ictu oculi, I do think the user has an unwanted special affection for disambiguations. I feel the user has good knowlege of the wikipedia policies (including page move policies) but they prefer to game the system. The ban (if imposed) will still allow the user to use their experience and make page moves using RM, while at the same time prevent them from gaming the system. Pratyush (talk) 18:45, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Oppose All this is trivial in terms of content. WP is edited for our users, and I see no case where the titles would confuse a user; some of the specific ones like Bombay Mail have a reasonable justification . Yes, it's technically against our rules, but with so many real problems at WP, this does not seem worth bothering with. A little more tolerance from others would solve the problem. DGG ( talk ) 18:53, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    If it were really trivial, that would be the end of it. But with thousands of these changes every month, over the course of many years, becomes a serious problem for others to clean up. As someone who has devoted much of my time to the RM process so that readers can locate our content, I don't consider the vast amount of time I've spent cleaning up after In ictu oculi trivial. And there's no indication it will stop through our normal mechanisms of discussion and consensus.--Cúchullain /c 19:12, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Reluctantly support - Even with the titling mess in general, and even when IIO does a lot of good, I hate to admit that IIO's unilateral moves are becoming more troublesome and tiring. I trust ourselves the community to resolve this matter immediately. --George Ho (talk) 20:04, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    – On second thought, I'll try to support SmokeyJoe's alt proposal. After seeing more newer contributions/edits and comments, probably best to allow IIO to do some moves under special conditions. George Ho (talk) 15:16, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Support - I do recall this editor in past, unilaterally moving articles from non-diacritics to diacritics titles. These unilateral page moves, seem a continuing pattern. GoodDay (talk) 00:25, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    I was actually incredibly surprised it took so long for anyone to explicitly name the elephant in the room. No, that is the opposite of what happened. Back in the bad old days of the "diacritic wars", several users (now mostly sitebanned; Kauffner, JoshuSasori, LittleBenW...) were going around unilaterally removing diacritics in contravention of Misplaced Pages's style guidelines. IIO frequently responded by opening RMs to move pages back to their properly (and stably) diacriticized titles. If there were instances of the reverse, I would hazard to guess they were exceptions rather than the rule, and I would need to see evidence to believe otherwise. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:00, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    I remember him creating many articles (without diacritics titles) and then immediately moving them to diacritics titles. Several years ago, I described IIO as a train gathering speed (partially due to support from others & partially due to little opposition) during those disputes. I suggested that should he come to a sudden stop, it would be a quite a train crash. It appears that 'crash' is now in progress. GoodDay (talk) 14:55, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    Wait ... so you are complaining about him creating articles with the wrong titles, realizing his mistake, and self-correcting? Who are you to criticize him for that? I thought you had created articles without diacritics in their titles, and had good, PAG-based reasoning for doing so, and IIO had come out of nowhere and moved the articles without discussion. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:48, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    I'm continuing to support the proposed page move ban & will not be changing my stance. You're free to continue trying to persuade me to change my recommendation. GoodDay (talk) 01:50, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    Comment - I created French Polish and Vietnamese bios in 2010? Yes. I may be taking a back seat on this, but having looked in cannot not comment on this editor's grudge. Firstly "diacritics" is a non-issue for 99% of the editors on en.wp. It is only a small minority such as GoodDay (see block Log) for whom it has been an issue. Secondly, how many 1000 bio articles have I created? (see contributions) Anyone creating bio articles knows to create them with both full Unicode "François" and ASCII/tabloid "Francois" so that both Francois does not redlink but leads to François. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:30, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    The problem here, is that you have a tendency to ignore folks, when they're requesting that you stop changing titles of articles. It comes across as arrogant on your part & thus off-putting. Even in this ANI report, you're continuing with an attitude that you're right & most of us are wrong. Either you go the RM route from now on 'or' eventually end up being reported to ANI by someone else. When you have a big number of editors supporting a page move-ban on you? it's best you start taking a gander into the mirror. You can either help yourself or sink yourself. Trust me, the Bunker mentality isn't the way to go. GoodDay (talk) 15:59, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    Jesus ... I did take a look per IIO's invitation, and ... User:GoodDay, after an indef site-ban not repealed for a year, why would you even want to wade back into the diacritic wars, let alone restart them in a venue that (prior to your involvement) had no direct connection to them? And I'm saying this as someone who is in the small minority to whom IIO referred. I don't care about them in real life, but a diacritic warrior on Misplaced Pages (who had less respect for MOS than I do) started harassing me both on-wiki (hounding, later posting my home address in multiple places) and off-wiki (contacting my workplace, and doing stuff on various external sites that I don't want to go into). Also, you appear to be in violation of the same TBAN that led to your earlier SBAN. It's not clear that you remembered the ban when you first posted here (your block log is clean for three years), but after IIO explicitly mentioned your having been blocked over diacritics, you should have shut up and/or stricken your earlier, TBAN-violating posts. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:43, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    Shit. I didn't notice that, apparently, the ban was "suspended for one year" last fall, according to the entry on WP:RESTRICT. I haven't located the actual discussion and/or ArbCom decision that led to the suspension, and the concept seems rather fishy. Was the ban suspended to allow for hounding of users wih whom he disputed years ago over the diacritics "problem"? Or is this discussion in violation of some kind of suspended sentence/probation? Anyway, striking for the time being. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:58, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    The concern here, is IIO's tendency to 'move pages' without going the RM route. GoodDay (talk) 13:43, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Oppose as I have interacted with IIO in the past and have a great deal of respect for this editor. I haven't sifted through all the moves in detail, but from what I can see this thread is an over-reaction by B2C. Naturally there will be disagreements among editors about what is best in any given situation, but I see nothing here that merits any kind of ban. IIO and B2C have different views on titling, which is a more complex subject than some would have it. Omnedon (talk) 01:59, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
      • It could be called an over-reaction by B2C, and I think I usually agree with IIO and disagree with B2C on traditional titling battlelines, but here B2C is right. There is a simple principle: When asked to stop doing certain BOLD things, you must stop. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:16, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    SmokeyJoe, that would be true but assumes that my editing has not become progressively more cautious (and my contributions reduced) as B2C's contributions become ever more closely following my own edits. I have reduced work on disambiguation, I have created less dab pages, I have erred on the side of caution, as for example in the last 10 dab/move/edits above when not immediately creating the Bombay Mail dab page despite the need for one, to allow B2C to revert where he wishes to do so. In fact although edits following myself make a good proportion of B2C's article space edits, B2C only reverts a small proportion of disambiguation work. It is difficult to fully anticipate correctly everything B2C will object to. Effectively it means ceasing disambiguation work in anticipation. If B2C was representative of norms in the encyclopedia then fair enough, but ] does not represent a normative position. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:30, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Oh, I definitively agree B2C is not normal, and that his blinkered relentless pushing of minimalist titling theories are disruptive time wasting for others, but that does not justify any bold page move that someone else would object to. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:53, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Omnedon: Actually, opposing this proposal based solely on the principal that IIO is a respectable editor whom you like is not a good idea, as the proposal is not all that restrictive to begin with, and most reputable editors have found themselves subjected to such sanctions at one point or another anyway. I think B2C's actions in this thread have been ... somewhat questionable (honestly I didn't notice it because I was active on ANI and a familiar name showed up -- I noticed it because of the insane number of subheadings), but that also is not the best rationale for opposing the limited sanction. Note that this advice comes from someone who actually is opposed to the sanction, for what it's worth. I think a strong warning about making potentially problematic moves, and perhaps unnecessary disambiguation, would be more appropriate. I'm just speaking my opinion because if I only spoke my opinion when it undermined "support" !votes (see above and below) that would make me a terrible hypocrite. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:00, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    Hiriji88, you don't seem to have quite gotten what I wrote; my oppose is not based solely on my opinion of IIO. I have looked and I see nothing here that merits a ban. I've expressed my view here briefly. This does not belong at ANI, and IIO does not deserve a block. That many editors are subjected to sanctions at one time or another doesn't make this acceptable. Omnedon (talk) 11:27, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    The link is malformed, so here you go: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#BoybandPH naming and Hollyckuhno (). --George Ho (talk) 03:26, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    It should probably be noted that PogingJuan is lucky he wasn't site-banned for some of the shit he pulled a few months back on a certain BLP talk page and a couple of ANI threads spun out thereof (veiled threats of off-wiki violence, insincere claims that said threats totally weren't meant as the threats they looked like, despite repeated refusal to strike them as allegedly unintended threats). He really shouldn't be !voting to apply sanctions to other editors, especially not based solely on personal opinions and general principals that aren't widely accepted by the community. If Hollyckuhno deserves a TBAN, that's Hollyckuhno's problem, not IIO's. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:00, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Well, after looking into this a bit, I suggest that both plaintiff and defendant be enjoined from moving pages without permission. If not that, then neither should be enjoined, as that implies too much fault for one side in an ongoing squabble where it's not clear where the main fault lies.
    After all no one should be moving pages without a discussion, if there's any chance that someone might object. Both plaintiff and defendant seem to have a tendency to conflate "looks fine to me" with "no one could object" (which is a common human failing). Points against User:In ictu oculi are well taken, but at the same time User:Born2cycle is on occasion a little rigid and sometimes of the mind "there's no dispute here, and we won't have a discussion: I'm just right, is all" when there possibly is reasonable basis for discussion. In fairness to User:Born2cycle he has thought about these issues a lot, and cogently. That doesn't necessarily make him always right though.
    All this is a violation of WP:RELAX as User:DGG points out. I would suggest to all parties that titles aren't that important, as long as the proper redirects and hatnotes are in place. I don't think that that will be taken to heart, though. I honestly don't know know how to solve this difficult and distressing standoff between two veteran, productive, and respected editors. But just an all around reminder as I said: no one should be moving pages if anyone might object, and "anyone might object" should be considered liberally. Herostratus (talk) 13:03, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    Herostratus: I understand what you're saying, but I want to reiterate that the problems of In ictu oculi's edits go well beyond any dispute between him and B2C. We're talking about thousands of bad moves and all the problems associated with them: misnamed articles, misleading redirects, hindered navigation, and poorly formatted dab pages, plus all the community time spent cleaning up after (if it's ever cleaned up at all). Individually the issues are minor, but when compounded thousands and thousands of times, despite repeated requests to stop, it's not a minor problem anymore.Cúchullain /c 14:20, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    Well, maybe you are right, User:Cuchullain. I just worry that the line between "misnamed article" and "article named differently from what I, personally, would prefer" is getting a little muddied. If I move New Orleans to the The Big Easy, that is a misnamed article. Disagreements about what might or not not be the best way to elucidate or expand on the information in the title, and if so what format should be used... that's a different thing. Herostratus (talk) 19:58, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    Herostratus, the point you keep missing or overlooking is that whether expanding a title for elucidation is acceptable is a well known point of contention (or "likely to be contentious" in WP:RM parlance), but IIO regularly makes such title changes unilaterally anyway. I don't. --В²C ☎ 20:25, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    Maybe you don't but at the same you reserve the right to, since you refused to agree not to when I suggested it informally as a peace compromise. And I mean look at #Informal Collaborator right above. It was you who was move warring and demonstrating an attitude of "There'll be no discussion, I'm right and that's an end to it" even when IIO's move supporting the original page name demonstrated that there was opposition to your version, from him.
    I mean... if, has been avowed by you and others, IIO just off the reservation, then it is understandably maddening to have to engage him over and over on stuff he's never going to get his way on anyway. However, I'm not convinced it is that simple, is all. Herostratus (talk) 21:00, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    Herostratus, I think that's the ticket. The problem seems to have gotten worse lately with Iio making more and more moves of the type that fail when they go to RM or face scrutiny. And there have been some that aren't just misnamed, but are flat wrong (ie this). At any rate, under these sanctions, he'd still be able to propose and discuss any move he wanted through the process.--Cúchullain /c 21:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Herostratus, of course I agree to not makes unilateral moves that are potentially contentious, which is all I've ever asked IIO to do. But I reserve the same right that everyone else has to revert undiscussed/unsupported moves (including reverting alleged unexplained/undiscussed "reverts" of well-supported moves made two months earlier, which is what happened at Informal collaborator). IIO has repeatedly demonstrated either an inability or an unwillingness to make distinctions between potentially contentious and clearly uncontentious title changes, and often ignores requests to provide explanation. --В²C ☎ 21:53, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Well, if you don't make unilateral moves, then what's this? I gather that your feeling is "well, that's not really a possibly-discussable move, it's just a correction, like fixing a spelling error". But it's not that simple I don't think. Herostratus (talk) 22:54, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
      • Herostratus, what that is is a revert of yet another unilateral move by IIO that came to my attention when I saw it questioned on his talk page a few days after I opened this AN/I. It was just a few weeks after he deleted (without responding; not even in the comment summary) another reminder from me for him to stop making potentially controversial unilateral moves. Perhaps it's a bit unfair but hopefully understandable: if it was anyone else I almost certainly would not have reverted it so quickly (if at all). It's fallout from repeated similar behavior on his part, and his ignoring repeated reminders that he not to engage in this disruptive behavior. Maybe this one time it was arguably a legitimate revert on his part, but given his reputation (read the Support !votes here)... again, I hope my response is understandable. Does that answer your question? --В²C
        • Yes it does, to some degree. Yes this diff (IIO blanking a talk page thread instead of responding) is something I hate to see (although, heh, you did it to me just recently (no hard feelings)). It may be justified if person feels they were being hectored (which I'm not accusing you of).
    Yes, though, I get it. As a practical matter, it is both human and functional to treat people differently based on their history. You're saying you wouldn't have rolled back if it was someone else... OK. That is reasonable if justified. Whether it is justified I'm not sure. You guys are having a difficult time getting along and respecting each other's point of view, I guess. This I think is a problem that needs to be resolved somehow, and I'm not sure that you "winning" is the best way forward.
    One reason I'm not sure that you "winning" is the best way forward is than on the merits I have have issues with some specifics of your approach to titling in general, and I fear that your "winning" this case will further valorize that point of view... But also, the sight of two veteran, dedicated, able, and highly respected colleagues at loggerheads in the manner distresses me, and I would prefer a win-win to a win-lose outcome. That may not be in the cards, but lose-lose may be the best option available... Herostratus (talk) 01:00, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    Herostratus, at least I responded/explained in my edit summary, right? And I've responded/explained to all of your queries. You can't say I'm ignoring you. I think the problem IIO and I have in getting along, to the extent that it exists, is not central to this AN/I. Even though I started it, I acknowledged the rocky history I have with IIO in the opening sentence here, and let's not forget that there were at least two previous similar AN/Is in which I was not involved, not to mention all of the accounts relayed in the Support !vote comments logged here. I'm open to getting along better with IIO, and any assistance in that direction. That said, IIO's disruptive behaviorial issues that are the subject of this AN/I are really the only serious issues I have with him. There are quite a few other eidtors I disagree with just as often, but don't have any working issues with them like I do with IIO. By the way, have you seen his comments and my responses in the Bombay Train and "Let's look at one ..." subsections above? I think they help explain why we need some action here. --В²C ☎ 18:32, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    Yes, you have responded and explained, and this is to your credit. As to rest, OK; I'll wait for what others say. Herostratus (talk) 21:22, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    Wait to hear what others have to say about what? I'm far from perfect, but while many here have confirmed that IIO's move behavior is problematic, none besides you have even suggested that I do anything close to what IIO does with respect to unilateral moves. --В²C ☎ 16:19, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
    It is not at all necessary that the move-related behavioral issues raised about IIO must be mirrored exactly by B2C. If B2C also exhibits move-related behavioral problems, even if they are different ones, that is sufficient for remedial action to be taken with regard to them, whether or not any ais taken with regard to IIO's. I've addressed this with specifics in longer commentary below.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  13:08, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Neutral as proposed, but support SmokeyJoe's proposal. As I said above, the move-pattern is just the tip of the iceberg. There are more serious problem with his editing, but they were decided to be off-topic, so I will assume this ban (if applied) will reduce the gaming from his part. © Tbhotch (en-2.5). 17:56, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Support this user has already way too often renamed pages when unwarranted (particularly to add unnecessary parentheticals) and should at the very least discuss controversial moves before performing them. Snuggums (talk / edits) 19:32, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Support per all the above. Another important point to remember here: there is no WP:DEADLINE. If an editor believes a page to be at a suboptimal title, it won't kill anyone to wait a week or so for an RM to confirm this. bd2412 T 02:53, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Support. IIO makes controversial moves without discussion to obscure pages and they often aren't picked up on for quite a while. Considering his relatively narrow view of what constitutes primary topics, I would much rather he be made to put them up for discussion first. Nohomersryan (talk) 18:10, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Mutual and temporary manual-move ban, or just a mutual but final warning. A three-month ban seems to be pretty customary. SmokeyJoe's terms in the third non-nominator comment seem to be the right approach. Over the last decade+, I've seen both of these editors improve in various ways, and yet both dig their heels in on certain views and tactics that don't mesh with the consensus approach to article titling. One thing I've noticed – and directly experienced! – is that a limited-time ban on making manual moves forces one to think more carefully about moves, their rationales, their impacts, and (frankly) the basic human politics involved in getting consensus. I rarely do manual moves these days, and I know other editors given short-term bans who have also taken to using RM religiously. We're here at ANI to remedy not punish.

      The complainant here (B2C) has a long history of problematic RM behavior himself, going back to at least 2010, and resulting in an ARBCOM case (which warned and admonished him by name) in 2012, another admin warning in 2013, an ANI sanction in 2013, an AN case, etc. I could diff-pile all that stuff and more (and maybe doing so would be deserved, given the mountain of questionable or at least differently interpretable evidence dumped here to demonize IIO, with little attention paid to the wealth of "B2C has unclean hands" material that could be dug up. I actually wrote most of that, but I don't think it's productive of resolution, so I scrapped it.

      Look, this two-editor deathmatch just needs cold water dumped on it. B2C's "my way or the highway" manner, incivility, and excessive devotion to WP:CONCISE as if it's the only one of the five WP:CRITERIA that really matters contrarian interpretations of WP:CRITERIA, all just desperately need to be given a long rest. So does IIO's "I'm pretending I can't hear any of you critics" act, and his similarly excessive insistence on leaping directly to parenthetical disambiguation (WP:PARENDIS) of and only of the WP:COMMONNAME, when the policy clearly favors avoiding disambiguation entirely by testing the available sourced names against the five CRITERIA (hint: COMMONNAME is not one of the criteria at all; it's just the first name to run through the actual CRITERIA tests as the most likely to fit them best). Only if that fails should we resort to disambiguating the COMMONNAME, and the policy is clear that we try WP:NATURALDISambiguation of that when possible, and only if that fails do we resort of parenthetic.

      Both editors have been failing to be civilly open to others' views on such matters, and abusing WP:BRD as a WP:FILIBUSTER weapon – concerns raised about article title disputes since 2012 in the WP:ARBATC ArbCom case. If curing these problems requires a two-editor break from moving articles around at will, then so be it.
       — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  18:26, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

      SMcCandlish, please don't misrepresent my views on title decision making. I give all WP:CRITERIA due weight and treat concision primarily as a tie breaker. That is, if all other criteria don't indicate a particular title between two, then concision kicks in preferring the more concise. I can't deny my past issues and I'm certainly not perfect now but have I done anything in the past (say) year that warrants some kind of sanction as you seem to suggest? If so, please identify that behavior because I have no idea what you're talking about, besides stuff from long ago. And if there is anything recent how about bringing it to my attention on my talk page first, to give me a chance to resolve it? I came here to AN/I regarding IIO's behavior because he ignored attempts from me and others to address his behavior on his talk page as documented above. Thank you. --В²C ☎ 07:42, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
      @Born2cycle: This is a red herring (though I've replaced the policy-interpretation comment, above, with something more general). Also, protesting your innocence and encouraging people to provide further evidence against you is not advisable. The principal issue with your RM-related behavior in this proceeding and the matters behind it (for way more than, say, the past year) is WP:CIVIL/WP:AGF/WP:ASPERSIONS/WP:BATTLEGROUND-related. It's your failure to change after ArbCom admonitions , admin warnings , a narrowly escaped topic ban from move discussions, at WP:AN , contingent upon promises that you have not kept (though some improvement regarding some of them is observable), and WP:AN sanctions , all about your move-related behavior pattern. It's not about policy interpretation at all, and these arguably stack up (among other incidents/warnings I've not cited) to suggest an indefinite T-ban from RM, though I advocated a short one or just a final warning.

      Have you done anything worthy of sanctioning lately? This direct accusation of bad faith of at least two kinds, without any evidence, in this very discussion, appears to qualify, both as to normal ANI admin civility enforcement and – very particularly with regard to you – per the discretionary sanctions authorized by WP:ARBATC#Remedies, in a "title warring" ArbCom case in which you were not just a party but specifically instructed to stop that kind of behavior (first raised, that I know of, in an even earlier AN dispute in 2010 with PMAnderson, which culminated in ARBATC in 2012). That's seven damned years to figure out how to approach article titles more reasonably. That AGF-failure diff is just one instance from one discussion; as I indicated, I'd prepared a lot more evidence but restrained myself from posting it. I would think that you're familiar with the kind of comprehensive diff dump I'm prepared to do to see "style and titles warring" disruption curtailed, and that you would not want to goad me into posting one.

      Anyway, I speak from both direct and observational experience in suggesting that a mutual short-term move ban would be instructive for both you and IIO, and would dispel a lot of unnecessary drama for other RM editors. If you end up back here again over the same matters, I think you should expect the long-term move/titles topic ban you almost got last time. I strongly suggest you refrain from lodging any more move-related ANI complaints, because they just draw attention to your own issues in this area, and raise concerns about "move-stalking" of "enemies" (IIO appears to have a good case that you've been doing this to him). If you think someone is being a real problem with regard to moves, step away and let someone else deal with it (e.g. ask admin Cuchullain to look into it, since he's well-versed in the nature of the issue and willing to speak up about it). Your hands are just too unclean on this to bring a case yourself, and you are far too devoted to titles debate as your no. 1 activity on WP for you to have a balanced viewpoint on the matter, anyway.

    Venue-related stuff:

    When an ANI thread is already open about a user's behavior (regardless who opened it about whom), and remedies have already been proposed (including some unilateral and bilateral BOOMERANG suggestions), then that noticeboard thread is the proper venue for addressing the behaviors (especially in light of previous AN/ARBCOM incidents about the same behaviors), not user talk. It's also not at all encouraging of use of your user talk page when you hat the relevant discussions there specifically to stop further commentary about these matters. Despite your hatting, I did try reopening related policy-interpretation discussion there anyway , before I posted here, and I did so specifically to correct someone else's policy misinterpretation, so I'm hardly picking on you (and you did not respond anyway).

    Policy interpretation stuff∂:
    I'm going by the CONCISE-related manifesto essays you wrote, which had the character of proposals to change AT policy, and which you cited incessantly as if they were guidelines, until they were both WP:MFDed and userspaced , . If your views on the matter had perceptibly changed as a result of these clear community indications that they were anti-consensus, that would be great. But your above statement is simply a reassertion of one of your MFDed essays, without any significant alteration, and it is still inconsistent with consensus policy interpretation and the wording of the policy itself. There is nothing whatsoever in WP:AT that even suggests that any of the five criteria are specially used only as some kind of "tie-breaker". If WP:CONCISE wasn't important in its own right, it would not be one of the five WP:CRITERIA, and the community does not agree with you that concision considerations only enter into naming decisions when all other things are equal between two names.

    Nor does the community agree with you that a shorter name must always be used versus a longer one if both satisfy the criteria (which is what my struck comment was referring to). Most of us understand it's more complicated than that, since a slightly longer name may much better satisfy multiple criteria than a too-clipped one. If you've actually moved away from your other MFDed essay's contrarian position about the latter point, then I might have misinterpreted your current position after all, and stand to be corrected. (This possibility is why I struck my original comment.) Feel free to clarify – in user talk, since "how B2C interprets AT, and who or how many agree/disagree" isn't one of the matters that are before us at ANI. Similarly, people have also disagreed with your interpretation of what the word "concise" operationally means in the WP article titles context, but that's another matter for another time and venue, and has no relevance to the behavioral matters that are actually the ANI concern. I won't engage with you or anyone else in further discussion of such off-topic interpretational detailia in this venue.

     — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  13:08, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    SMcCandlish: This sounds reasonable and a good step for the future should restrictions not be implemented here, but I do want to reiterate that IIO's editing problems are serious and go beyond the dispute with B2C. If I thought a final warning would do the trick, I'd be right there with you, but IIO has shown an unwillingness to listen to any of the many people who have questioned or challenged him over the course of years, and it appears that the problem is escalating (he admits that he's attempting to avoid scrutiny by doing this). I expect we'll be right back here at ANI pretty shortly.--Cúchullain /c 15:16, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Oppose I've been following the whole thing from start, and just now, I can really agree SMcCandlish, I feel a final warning for IIO, and a large trout for B2C for the incivility. —JJBers 18:57, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    JJBers, if there is anything about my behavior that you believe deserves a trout please bring it to my attention on my talk page, to give me a chance to resolve it. I came here to AN/I regarding IIO's behavior because he ignored attempts from many including me to address his behavior on his talk page as documented above. Thank you. --В²C ☎ 07:42, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    For what it's worth, I personally find it very annoying when people post essentially the same comment, in the same words, in response to multiple different editors (or in response to several unrelated comments by the same editor). I'm not sure if there's a policy or guideline that explicitly discourages this, but if there is none there ought to be. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Hijiri88: WP:BLUDGEON covers the first (though not the "in response to several unrelated comments by the same editor" variant). B2C was admonished by ArbCom already about this stuff: "Findings of fact: ... Born2cycle's editing on the disputed pages and related subjects has hampered efforts at resolution, specifically by excessive responses" . It was also a major issue in his previous WP:AN sanctions: "... hounding the opposition is not helpful. It discourages uninvolved editors to participate, it raises tensions, and it puts folks in a more defensive mode than collaborative. I find that there is strong consensus for some kind of sanction. By strong, I mean overwhelming to the opposes. ... Unfortunately, getting B2C to see the light has not solved this problem in the long term." . The same basic pattern was also central to an RM topic ban at WP:AN that he narrowly escaped by promising to change this pattern, the failed "seeing the light" referred to in the second quote.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  13:08, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Hijiri88, sorry about the near-duplicate replies. You're right. Not normal for me. I wanted to reply to each of you. Should have made a combined response. Not sure why I didn't. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. --В²C ☎ 04:30, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Support, I would go further and ban In ictu oculi ("Iio") from initiating a move using RM, because his past behaviour over moving article that can be spelt with diacritics, IIio will simply create lots of RMs, that are not justified under the guidelines (or will justify his/her move by cherry pick sentences from guidelines that support Iio's move but ignore wider guidance). IMHO Iio has done immense harm to this project by his obsessions in moving articles to native spelling of articles, without even a pretence of considering whether the native spelling is commonly used in reliable English language sources (see for example Archive 7 and Archive 8). This thread shows that Iio transfer's similar tactics to other areas. -- PBS (talk) 10:56, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Strong oppose, this is just the typical controversy at RM spilling over. These two have complete opposite (and both extreme) views of article title policy and regularly have drawn-out arguments at RM. In my view, B2C is just as tendentious as IIO, and as such banning IIO and not B2C would be unfair. I was recently involved in an RM that B2C closed, despite it being a) controversial and b) having expressed views on the topic before. After being asked to revert by multiple editors, he, of course, did not. B2C has an (IMO) extreme view of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The analysis by SMcCandlish is an excellent overview. Laurdecl 11:04, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    And now he appears to have started a very large RM on Faberge egg articles immediately after a thorough RfC was closed, simply because he disagrees with the outcome. He also disdains the closer, a well-respected editor, again because he disagrees with the outcome. Laurdecl 11:10, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Yes, I started an RM after a group of articles were moved without the moves being advertised on RM or even their respective talk pages as policy requires. Is following policy and starting a proper RM a problem now? And I did agree to revert my close of that other RM discussion if anyone previously uninvolved (and without a history of disagreeing with me) disputed its outcome. Nobody did. Of course, even those involved can file a review at WP:MR. Is it also a problem to report a serial unilateral page mover who has been ignoring policy and consensus on this issue for the better part of a decade? I know I have tone problems. Probably exhibiting them now. I'm sorry. It's a character flaw. I have a hard time believing anyone could think ill of me, so I'm less careful with my words than I should be. I know I mean well. Don't you? So it's "fair" to ban me too? --В²C ☎ 16:11, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    Truite? Ou boomerang?

    I'm sorry, but the more commentary by B2C I read here and on IIO's talk page, the more I think he/she seriously needs to be taught the importance of WP:CIVIL. I find it incredible that someone who routinely engages in this kind of sniping rhetoric could have been editing for twelve years without a single block. Did this just happen recently? Understanding/misunderstanding policy is one thing, but civility should be a given, and in fact is by far the most important policy on Misplaced Pages (for good or ill). Everyone gets frustrated/angry from time to time, but I don't see anything IIO did that could explain this. @Born2cycle: do you understand why this kind of comment is inappropriate? Do you regret it? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:17, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

    Note: I still disagree with B2C, but to quote Jeremy Barton, "I'm starting to root for this guy". I can definitely sympathize with B2C on some of the details here. So I say WP:TROUT. I can see that consensus is actually moving toward a formal sanction for IIO, and if some of the others (including Cuchullain, who I trust even more than IIO) are right that something has changed about IIO's behaviour since I last interacted with him, sobeit. I can actually accept this because I had essentially the same thought back in 2015 when IIO posted this bizarre and hypocritical attacks against me. I'm not withdrawing my opposition to the formal ban, though, as I don't see any evidence that people have tried to convince him to voluntarily pull back. This is just to say that I don't think my TROUT proposal is likely to go anywhere. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Hijiri88: What about B2C's attempts to challenge the consensus of the "Fabergé egg" articles?
    Your response to the above? George Ho (talk) 14:46, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    I'll be creating a multi-page RM when I have time. --В²C ☎ 16:33, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

    Hijiri88, regarding the comment you linked above, I'm sorry but I don't see what the issue is with it. This whole AN/I, and at least two others prior to this one (in which I was uninvolved), are all about IIO making undiscussed/unexplained moves much like that one. That is what he does, that's all I said, and it's why I think only prohibiting him from making unilateral moves will resolve it. The examples identified above are just a sampling, there are many, many more. I don't mean to disparage him, but it does no one any good to pretend otherwise. If I'm missing something, I apologize in advance. --В²C ☎ 16:49, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

    @Born2cycle: Don't question the ability of inexperienced editors to perform non-admin closures of controversial discussions. You'll get repeatedly threatened with a site-ban. Believe me. My experience with this is the same reason I said above that CIVIL is the most important policy, and outweighs all others combined. Ask ArbCom and they will agree -- the highest court in the land doesn't care a lick about content, sourcing, verifiability, original research, or good faith; if you are easily driven to write snide remarks some of the stuff in the diffs above, you need to just follow the Wickedly talented Adele Dazeem's advice and step away, or talk to other users you trust about reviewing closures in your stead, because you're not going to get what you want acting like that. I actually agree that Exemplo was out of line with that close (email me if you want a full explanation why, or look at the contrib history of AlbinoFerret and figure it out for yourself), but you need to know how to express yourself in a manner that those who don't agree will appreciate. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    Thank you and I really appreciate what you're trying to do here, and accomplishing. Exemplo347, I apologize for questioning your abilities and experience. I've seen it done before (about others in similar situations) and thought it was acceptable and appropriate. But now I'm not so sure, to say the least. --В²C ☎ 00:18, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    If anyone around here knows about BADNACs, it's you, not Exemplo347. The first thread on your talk page has no less than seven editors asking you to revert your close on Iznik pottery, and at least two of them completely uninvolved. Laurdecl 11:56, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    All of them were either involved or have a history of disagreeing with me, as noted in that discussion. I would have reverted if a single person objected to my close who was uninvolved and had not expressed animosity for me or my views in the past. There was nobody. --В²C ☎ 17:44, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    Figures

    @user:Gerda Arendt you wrote "A page move is easily reverted if not needed, while every time I participate in a RM I feel like wasting time." Are 24 easily reverted? That is how many move OiiIio made in on 26 April, 25 April "only" 5, on the 24 April 21 moves ... According to this search OiiIio had made about 20,400 edits that involved the word "moved page" since December 2009, to put that into perspective you have made 404 "moved page" edits since August 2009. This year you have moved 16 articles ie in a third of a year less than OiiIio made on the 26 April alone. -- PBS (talk) 11:45, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    I hope your figures are more precise than your abbreviation of a user name. Let's stay with 24 moves one day: not all of them will be contentious, and the few left that may be can be handled (discussed or reverted) by the different people who care about these articles. I don't see the problem. I have bad experiences with requested moves, for example The Flying Durchman, an impossible title (the only stage work by Wagner in English, while all others are in the original language), but consolidated by a RM. Waste of time. I won't try again, rather leave it impossible ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:04, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    I fixed the abbreviation thank you for pointing it out. I think my numbers are correct why don't you look for yourself? I am willing to correct them if not.-- PBS (talk) 16:49, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    @Hijiri 88 searching on "moved page" returns about 179 (less than one can score with three darts), if OiiIio was moving so so few articles this ANI would be inappropriate, but we are talking about an editor that has made 500 moves in March and April of this year. So whether or not you think there is a boomerang problem, there is a real problem that needs to be address in with OiiIio and excessive moves in this ANI. -- PBS (talk) 11:45, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    You seem to be addressing my initial !vote's rationale that non-controversial moves are fine because they are not controversial. I stand by that statement because, even if he had moved 10,000 pages in two months, I would still need to see some evidence that some of those were bad moves or were counter-consensus. There are (indeed were a week ago, when I cast my !vote) a lot of people !voting based on the assumption that someone making a lot of unilateral page moves must be a bad thing. In case you haven't noticed, Misplaced Pages has a lot of shitty articles, many of them probably having shitty titles that don't conform to MOS. Again, I'm reminded of JoshuSasori, who proudly advertised on his userpage having created a bunch of pages with titles in contravention of MOS guidelines (as in, he specifically stated that he didn't like MOS and had titled those pages deliberately). It isn't beyond belief that IIO noticed a similar, much larger, problem recently, and even if his moves were wrong (again, I trust Cuchullain's judgement most of the time) I think a warning to take a bit more care would be enough. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:04, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    As above, the high number of moves are the result of a high number of article edits and high number of disambiguation edits and disambiguation page creations (or restorations where a search term previously leading to content such as "Sivi" is displaced by a minor entertainment article.
    Also above, and again ancient history being raised now, but also as above a high total number of moves over the years are the result of creation of bios or implementation of RfCs about use of full Unicode fonts not ASCII 24 letter fonts. PBS, like GoodDay, is entitled to a view on "diacritics" contrary to WP:FRMOS etc as Talk:Édouard Deldevez, but the die is cast, the entire encyclopedia (except for one Serbian lady sticking out like the proverbial sore thumb) uses full unicode for BLP, I am not to blame for that, hundreds of editors participated in well attended RfCs at WP Hockey WP Tennis and elsewhere many years ago. It maybe in 2017 with Brexit there's momentum for a move of the entire article corpus back to resemble the Daily Mail, but it's not relevant to discussion here about whether I was somehow malicious or "gaming" by leaving Bombay Mail (a) for templates to settle and (b) for B2C to follow my edits. I was in good faith improving the encyclopedia by allowing readers looking for the 3 possible topics of Bombay Mail to find them. And similar. I have no further interest in continuing to create disambiguation pages, even when obscure entertainment topics are inserted over a search term with many more meanings. And thus no need to move terms like Submergence to make room for them. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:11, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Iio I think you are confused the 20k+ has nothing to do with requested moves, these are move you have have made, not those you have requested or participated in using the WP:RM process. By way of comparison taking the edit count of the editor one above and below you who are not admins returns 180 344 (I have missed out the admin next to you because admins may have unusual profiles compared to other users (although in this case the admin has only made 45 page moves). The point being that you moving of pages is not 10 time that of the people I have compared you with, but more than 100 times as large. SO even if you make no more misjudgements that average you are likely to have made 100 times as many misjudgements. -- PBS (talk) 17:39, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    As an editor with many article creations, many edits, many dab pages, if the worst that someone can say is that some were reverted, and I did not contest but happily left, without creating further drama, that doesn't sound to me like it is related at all to your own issue: "immense harm to this project by his obsessions in moving articles to native spelling of articles" (i.e. by following RfCs and WP:FRMOS etc). If you want to resurrect the diacritics issue, then please go back to 2011-12 and all the RMs like Talk:Édouard Deldevez, go back to the RfCs, and make a case to reverse the use of "native spelling" as you call it throughout the article corpus. This is the consensus of 100s of editors, not just myself. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:00, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    More than "some" were reverted. But that's not even the issue. Almost certainly more should be. What's problematic about these unilateral moves of yours is you rarely provide even a short explanation in the edit summary, let alone real explanation on the talk page, much less wait for input. Not to mention that on many of these pages probably those few who are watching understand WP title-decision-making less than you do, so waiting isn't going to be fruitful anyway. Most of these moves are clearly in the potential controversial area that require WP:RM listing. You're just not collaborative on these moves. WP:BOLD does not apply to moves like it does to edits. That's what you don't seem to appreciate and respect. That's why you need to be forced to stop. --В²C ☎ 21:40, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    WP:HOUND

    User:The Banner His focus on FFA P-16 is obvious. He suggests articles from FFA P-16 for deletion for example Bucher aircraft tractor while he ignores similar articles in case their not from FFA P-16. He even started a Sockpuppet investigations on me and FFA P-16 although several others told him that we're clearly not the same person (see there). We both asked him to stop following FFA P-16 (see WP:HOUND and Stop Wikihounding me! with no success. --MBurch (talk) 10:13, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

    I was assuming good faith when I posted my first several comments, but as it turns out, when one looks at The Banner's edit history a bit more closely, he posts AFDs on an almost daily basis, so the claims that his focus on FFA P-16 is obvious and he ignores similar articles in case their not from FFA P-16 are demonstrably false. The only one who is "obviously focused" on hounding one particular editor is User:MBurch, who has barely made a single edit not related to The Banner in months (his edits to de.wiki are irrelevant, as it seems he is only on English Misplaced Pages to harangue The Banner). I think that unless this thread is withdrawn and the above baseless remarks about The Banner stricken, a block and/or one-way IBAN (they are possible) should be put on the table for MBurch, and his tag-team partner FFA P-16's disruption should also probably be dealt with appropriately. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:24, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    It's indeed not good faith to automatically assume sock puppets on all those that don't agree on someones deletions requests especially after several people mentioned that we're clearly not the same person. At least in German Misplaced Pages where I mostly edit it would have been just part of common sense for the petitioner to at least excuse yourself after such a mistake. --MBurch (talk) 13:08, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    MBurch, a clerk endorsed CU on you, and CU confirmed that you were a sock, and you were blocked accordingly for several days. The idea that you were a sock of FFA is not some idiosyncratic idea manufactures by The Banner to punish you for opposing his AFDs. And, more than that, the incident in question was three months ago. Drop it now, and go do something that doesn't involve hounding The Banner, or you will likely be blocked per WP:NOTHERE, regardless of whether you are in fact a meatpuppet (which you still really look like, even if CU was wrong to declare you a sockpuppet). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:00, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    Can you please stop calling me a sock!? Doug Weller statement was very clear (see his investigations).--MBurch (talk) 10:48, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Hijiri88:} You should not make the statement that I confirmed an editor as a sock when I later stated that I was mistaken and apologised. It doesn't help and it might be misread. Doug Weller talk 12:02, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Doug Weller: My apologies. As you know, CU is a bit inscrutable to those of us who don't have it. My point is that, regardless of whether it was a mistake or whatever, MBurch is not doing himself or anyone else any favours by constantly ragging on about it like he is, nor by insinuating that the whole SPI was a revenge action by The Banner, since clearly the evidence convinced several other good-faith users. This same thing happened a few months back with someone else who was CU-blocked as a sock of User:Kauffner. Apparently on that occasion too, there was some mistake, but even after being unblocked the user continued to do nothing but complain about how he had been mistreated. I do not, of course, think you unblocked someone whom you had already confirmed was in fact a sock -- I don't even think MBurch is a sock. I just think he needs to drop the stick already. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hijiri88 (talk • contribs)
    I accept your apologies while one from The Banner is technically still missing, but I won't insist on that if we find a solution that ends this whole drama. --MBurch (talk) 14:55, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    Just to be clear, I was apologizing to Doug for my unfortunate language. I was not apologizing to you because I was not wrong to say you were determined by multiple independent parties, based on several different types of evidence, to be a sockpuppet. So you are still very much in the wrong to repeatedly insist that one of those multiple users was motivated solely by revenging you. Rather than insincerely claiming that you "accept my apology", you should be the one apologizing for continuously trying to game the system. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:04, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    You insulting me calling me several times a sock and when I kindly ask you to stop and even the checkuser Doug Weller tells you that there's no reason to call me a sock you excuse yourself but not towards the person you insulting? It's true I'm mostly active in German Misplaced Pages, but I have globaly more than 25'000 contributions which is a bit more than you have thought I'm two years longer active as well but fun fact is that you got several times blocked (one time even for abusing multiple accounts). Maybe you shouldn't really hand out advice yourself. --MBurch (talk) 11:51, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    You insulting me calling me several times a sock Wrong. I never called you a sock. I said your behaviour made you very much look like a sock, so much so that an SPI was opened, a clerk endorsed CU, a CU was performed, and you were blocked for several days. I said this because you kept insisting (indeed continue to insist) that the SPI was baseless, and was only opened as revenge for you !voting in some AFDs. I am not saying you are a sock: I am saying you are engaged in gross ABF, hounding, and otherwise disruptive behaviour. These are not the same thing. when I kindly ask you to stop Wrong again. Nothing about your conduct in this thread has been "kind". even the checkuser Doug Weller tells you that there's no reason to call me a sock Is that what Doug said? I thought he told me to stop using the phrase "CU-confirmed sock" because it was misleading. you excuse yourself but not towards the person you insulting? Yes, I apologized for my unfortunate choice of words. I used the phrase "CU-confirmed sock" to mean "account that has been CU-blocked as a sockpuppet because CU 'confirmed' (in the technical sense used in SPIs) that it was a sockpuppet". I did not apologize for "insulting you" because I did not insult you. I said you were misrepresenting history to make The Banner's behaviour sound worse than it was, and assuming bad faith on the part of the user who opened the SPI but not the clerk that endorsed it or the CU who blocked based on it. It's true I'm mostly active in German Misplaced Pages Nope. You are only active on German Misplaced Pages. Before November 2015, you had eight edits on en.wiki. Then you started showing up on deletion discussions involving The Banner, and your rate of editing on English Misplaced Pages went up exponentially. Your spurt of edits since February of this year has been devoted almost exclusively to The Banner. Stop hounding The Banner. but I have globaly more than 25'000 contributions which is a bit more than you have Umm... so what? thought I'm two years longer active as well That's ungrammatical and doesn't make a lot of sense. You first became active on de.wiki (the only Wikimedia project to which you have made a substantial number of edits) in 2013, while I have been fair consistently active on English Misplaced Pages since 2012, and my account's official age is five years older than yours; I was an active contributor between 2005 and 2008, then left the project while in university, as I was during that period awarded credits for the same type of writing that I was doing on Misplaced Pages for no reward. But again, what does this have to do with anything? but fun fact is that you got several times blocked Actually, if you look at the background, most of those blocks were for technically violating a couple of IBANs, while the other users with whom I was banned have since either been site-banned for obvious NOTHERE trolling and the hounding of me that originally led to the IBAN (in the case of Catflap08) or left the project because ... they were obvious NOTHERE trolls, who, once they were no longer allowed troll me and other users active in a particular topic area, they eventually gave up and left (in the case of Tristan noir). Both of these IBANs have been dissolved, one back in February 2013 and the other in March of this year. But again -- what does any of this have to do with the dispute between you, FFA and TB? Are you just being deliberately antagonistic? Going back through other users' (years ago) block logs) is a fairly good indication that you are the one engaged in hounding. You are, at the very least, behaving in an extremely uncivil manner. one time even for abusing multiple accounts Again, context. I was not abusing multiple accounts. I accidentally edited while logged into this account because this account had email enabled and (at least at that time) I was unable to use the same email address with more than one (declared, legitimate) account. This account (which I had said I would not use to edit English Misplaced Pages during the period in which the Coldman the Barbarian account was active) was then blocked from editing English Misplaced Pages. If I had not volunteered not to use my main account to edit English Misplaced Pages (because of some off-wiki harassment by a site-banned troll who had figured out my workplace and parents' home address) it almost certainly would not have been blocked. I was, at the time, formally retired from editing, but I became aware that a user with whom I had previously conflicted was going around systematically reverting my edits, and decided to report the problem, but I didn't want to log into my main account to do it because another user was actively monitoring my main account's contribs, and harassing me off-wiki. Again, context. Please apologize for your gross, off-topic personal attacks against me, or I will request that you be blocked. Maybe you shouldn't really hand out advice yourself. Right back at ya, big guy. You should be blocked for your behaviour in this thread, let alone your disruptive hounding of The Banner. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:44, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

    @MBurch: I'm going to repeat the most important part of my above response -- please apologize for your gross, off-topic personal attacks against me, or I will request that you be blocked the next time you make a comment like that. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:26, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

    I didn't mean to attack you at all, I just believe you're comments were not much helpful. In my personal opinion you increased the conflict while others tried to find a solution in short, brief words. Fact is I signed up 21th of November 2010, I have globally over 25'000 contributions mostly in German Misplaced Pages, but a few on commons, wikidata and others, too . --MBurch (talk) 08:51, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    It's good to know you didn't mean to attack me, but that's what you did. And if we discount FFA and The Banner themselves, you are the only one here who has not been working to find a solution to the problem, as you are yourself a significant part of the problem (indeed, you have scarcely contributed anything to English Misplaced Pages beyond fanning the flames of this dispute). You opened this thread as part of a tag-teaming/hounding campaign on your part, and since opening it you opposed my first pro-active attempt to resolve the problem, posted an extremely suspicious support for Kleuske's (which made it look like you intend to game and undermine it), and would probably oppose any solution MilborneOne might have that doesn't either specifically single out The Banner or allow you to continue specifically singling him out. It's not even clear who you are talking about when you say "others". Apart from Kleuske and myself, and the involved parties themselves (you, FFA and The Banner), the only people who have commented here have been one-off drive-by commenters. Speculation as to the reason for that aside, it would be appreciated if you didn't continue to insinuate that I have been "not much helpful" and am working to "increase the conflict" when the one who is being deliberately and needlessly inflammatory is clearly not me. Also, you still have not apologized. Demanding that others apologize to you for using unfortunate/misleading wording in a good-faith attempt to deal with the core issues here, while simultaneously refusing to apologize for your own blatant and unprovoked personal attacks, is not helpful. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:26, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    • He "worked" only on 3 Airports, Amsterdam (probably because he is from the netherlands) , Dublin (probably because he live in Ireland) he doesn't worked on any other Airport article.. except of deleting out informations of Zürich Airport (the biggest Airport of SWITZERLAND).
    • The only Air Force Base he was "working" on was the Dübendorf Air Base (an Air Force Base of SWITZERLAND) trying to delet out informations about the Zero-G flight and other stuff.he doesn't worked on any other Air Force Base article of the whole world.. and BTW Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Dübendorf Air Base The only Air Base he want have deleted was an Air Base from SWITZERLAND. No oter tiny dusty airfiled somewere...
    • The only aircraft project he want have deleted was not for e.g. the Bartini A-57, Lockheed L-2000 or Belyayev Babochka no, he wantet the Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/ALR Piranha from SWITZERLAND , created from me,do be deleted.
    • The only aircraft (build) aircraft page he nominatet for deletion from him was the Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/KZD-85 from SWITZERLAND, created from me.
    • The only airshow page(again created from me) he nominatet for deletion].was the one about the Air14
    • The only page about an Aircraft Type he was deleting out Informations is the Pilatus PC-24 from SWITZERLAND, interestingly what is "not-notable for ihm there

    not bother him on any other page like Fairey Delta 1, Avro Ashton, Hawker P.1052.

    • From all Modern aerobatic teams and Disbanded military teams his only interest is to suppress Informations of all 4 Teams of the Air Force of SWITZERLAND, on no other Modern aerobatic team or Disbanded military team was touched from Banner. Things which he can not stand in any relation to the 4 Teams (Two of them the Superpuma Display and the F/A-18 Hornet Display had I creadet) of the Air Force of SWITZERLAND not bother him on any other page even with a hint he doesent touched the Dutch Solo Display Team or F-16 Demo Team.
    • The only Air Force page who he tryes to "clean " is the one from SWITZERLAND.. Even if ther is an update or change in some projects (for eg. That the C-17 is no more a candidat as Cargoplane for the Swiss Air Force he does not want to admit.
    • He attacked in this timeframe my userpag. Inn my eyes he has also much not notable stuff on his userpage.. but I would never touch it.

    So he is usualy not active in Aviatic topics most of the time with total differend topics , like Restraurants, Beautycontests,... But if it is something about swiss aivatic, and if I had creadet the page or just add a few words, all hell breaks loose. I have the feeling this is Wikihounding.


    • Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Nils Hämmerli Kunstflugkommandant
    • Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Medisize Schweiz AG Swiss plastic industrie
    • Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Terxo AGSwiss plastic industrie
    • Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Isopress AG Swiss plastic industrie
    • Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/AGP 3 Trailer sole article about a bustrailer he nominated for deletion
    • Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Military History Foundation of the Canton of Zug Only Museum he want have to be deleted
    • Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bernhard Müller (Officer) he wanted the next commander! of the Swiss air Force deleted
    • Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Task Force ALBAThe only military mission he wanted to be deleted
    • Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/SPHAIR
    • Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bucher aircraft tractor (2nd nomination) ‎But no other Aircrafttractor (like M2 High Speed Tractor) got nominated for deletion..
    • The only air surveilance systems he nominadet ever are two from switzerland/ I had creadeted: The FLORIDA System and SRF System.

    Also on EVERY Article from me who was nominated from someone else for deletion.. guess what.. he voted for delet, not a single who he didn't touched.

    Non stoping provocations Verh unfriendly acting and threaten to persons who speak up against his wikihounding on me.

    Everyone who came across from the german Misplaced Pages to support me in a deleting discussion got attacked from him in rude words. But not enough.. he started also a checkuser against me and several other persons.. knowing very well that no one is a sockpupped.. He had done this only because of its maliciousness.

    If I add some informations somewhere he deled it out with comments like fancuf, fanboy, not notable, irrelevant ,.. But on the other hand he is insisting on such nonsense:. all this is only the peak of all the mobbing, editwarring, stalking from The Banner against me... and this again is only his constant attacks against me.. a lot of other users have to suffer because no one stop him.. a lot of users (who brought in valuable Informations ) have resgnated and left Misplaced Pages for ever.

    Also he is constantly watching My talkpage.. If someon had left there a positive feedback about an article from me like here: he starts to provocate . Not only that he is stalking me in the “open” part of Misplaced Pages, he is also browsing on my not “open” pages on Misplaced Pages. He cleaned all this informations out and threatened me with a block warning on my talkpage. Also nomnadte he my ‎User:FFA P-16/workpage19 for deletion. He is damaging Misplaced Pages with his non stop deleting nominations. Also the Banner is behaving very aggressive against other people in other deleting discusions FFA P-16 (talk) 10:33, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

    When I edited the page of Zurich Airport (the circle section) the user The Banner delated my New adding without a giustification. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Z%C3%BCrich_Airport&type=revision&diff=688550466&oldid=688546793 The aviation user. Zurich00swiss (talk) 11:30, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

    • (Non-administrator comment) BOOMERANG, anyone? The OP was blocked in February as a CU-confirmed sock of FFA P-16, and the two were shortly thereafter unblocked because CU was apparently a false positive or some such. But whether or not they are the same person, MBurch has not made any edits to English Misplaced Pages since being unblocked except to !vote in several AFDs opened by The Banner and otherwise harangue The Banner. Whether The Banner is hounding FFA might need to be looked into (I haven't), but that MBurch hasn't made any edits that haven't been related to The Banner is obvious. The evidence that the Banner is hounding FFA seems to be limited to the claim that the former has been posting several of the latter's articles for AFD (and this is borne out by this). But per AGF, we must assume that The Banner sincerely believes his/her stated rationales for said AFDs, and the fact that several of them have passed with consensus to delete means that said rationales may be justified. If one finds an editor writing a lot of articles on topics that one sincerely believes do not meet GNG, posting said articles for AFD is not "hounding". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:16, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

    @Hijiri 88, it is not that he nomiated Coincidentally this for AFD because he is thinking it does not meet GNG. like I sayd above.. The ALR Piranha was the only aircraft project he nominated he did not put one of this in question Bartini A-57, Lockheed L-2000 or Belyayev Babochka. He nominadet Bucher aircraft tractor (who i had writen) for deletion.. it had a few references ‎But no other Aircrafttractor (like U-30 Tow Tractor and MB-2 tow tractor who have NO referenc) got nominated for deletion.. The number of from The banner nominated articels i had written (especaly about the Divison General) shows exactly that it is not about GNG and draves a clear picture...The only UAV he ever nominadeted was writen from me he never nominated ANY other UAV Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/KZD-85. Very interesting is that ther is now a long line of AfD s from against articels from me..it is no coincidence that he now drag FLORIDA Airspace monitoring and management system and SRF Airspace monitoring and management systemto AfD after they exist already 4 years with "Fail WP GNG" at the same time put no other radar system who was not written from me in question (like Austrian air defense or French air defence radar systems) who's WP GNG is even weaker. That are just a few exampels.FFA P-16 (talk) 13:57, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

    If you want to contest the result of Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bucher aircraft tractor (2nd nomination), ANI is not the place to do it. If you want to nominate other pages for deletion, ANI is also not the place to do it. The fact that most of the AFDs you referred to above resulted in deletion means that the nominations must be taken in good faith. If you think someone is hounding you, you need convincing evidence thereof. I have only so far seen convincing evidence that your friend MBurch is hounding The Banner in your stead. I will admit that I have not read your wall of text, and I do not intend to; writing a massive wall of text with very few diffs is normally a pretty solid indication that you don't have such evidence. Maybe you should have told MBurch to hold off on this ANI thread until you had the diffs prepared? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 21:02, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
    Honored Hijiri 88.
    It's not about rebooting AfD's, but about the abusive position of AfD's and wikihounding of The Banner against me.
    Please do not made the victim to the guilty and the guilty to an victim.
    MBurch was massively attacked by The Banner when he spoke in AfD's for the receipt of my articles. He also saw The Banner battling systematically against me, and merely asking The banner to stop it. He never bothered any work of The Banner. Likewise, Zurich00swiss also knew that he had never bothered the work of The Banner but was attacked massively by The Banner in his work on the subject of Airport Zurich and the AfD's where he spoke out to not delet my articles.
    You do not seem to understand. The Banner is systematically following me, and specifically targeting AfD's against articles written by me. It is not about quality. If you would read the text from me, you would see that he makes various articles of me AfD in subjects where he is never active (UAV, Air Base, Aircraftprojects, Radar system, ..) In all these areas it has Several articles written by other users who meet much less the requirements, but he has not proposed any of them to the AfD. Some have not a single referenc or weblink ..he never touched it, but my article with references... This makes it quite clear that he has it only on me. Examples I have brought above enough.
    Just to look at the some articles from me(not all!) who In AfD's had been deleted .. not to read my "long" text and then to decide The Banner is innocent. Sorry but this is not a factual investigation of this problem.
    I ask you to take the time and really read and examine all my foundations. If you do not look at everything it makes no sense that you deal with this case. Then I ask for someone else who take care of this case. Someone who is willing to read all my arguments and to look at all the examples I have brought. Thank you.FFA P-16 (talk) 05:06, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    Okay, first, please learn to indent consistently. It's difficult to respond to you otherwise.
    If you are not interested in undoing the AFDs, then why are you trying to go back and discredit the grounds on which they were posted for AFD? The Banner's behaviour in posting those particular pages to AFD could have only constituted hounding if he didn't sincerely believe that those pages should be deleted on their own merits. If you are creating a bunch of articles that should be deleted per our inclusion criteria, the problem is with you, not The Banner. Even if he found those pages by checking your contribs, that is still legit and does not constitute hounding.
    No, MBurch only posted in those AFDs because they were opened by The Banner and because the articles in question were started by you. Maybe The Banner attacked MBurch for that (you still haven't provided any diffs...), but it's abundantly clear that MBurch has been hounding The Banner -- MBurch hasn't done anything but hound The Banner.
    Again, if The Banner's AFDs had merit, then what he did was not hounding. Even if it was systematic, the problem is with you writing articles that almost uniformly get deleted when posted to AFD, not with him posting them at AFD. I will explain this by giving an example. About three years ago, I noticed that a certain user was showing a severe failure to read sources and present what they said accurately, on an article that was on my watchlist. No matter how hard I tried to explain it to him, he just didn't seem to get it. I then got suspicious that he might have engaged in similar disruption on other articles, so I checked his contribs and found that my suspicion had been correct. When I pointed this out on the talk pages of the other articles (which weren't on his watchlist and which I had "followed" him to) I too was accused of "hounding". But I wasn't hounding: I noticed a user engaged in problematic behaviour and dealt with it accordingly. Even if that is what The Banner did here (and you still haven't presented any evidence that that is even what is happening), the problem is most likely with you, not The Banner. Otherwise, why would almost all of the pages have been deleted?
    For what it's worth, I did check how often The Banner posts articles for deletion. Of his past 300 new page creations in the Misplaced Pages namespace, 296 have been AFDs, and that's only since January 1 of last year. That's 0.61 AFDs per day over a period of 16 months -- are all of those AFDs hounding of the users who created the articles? And do you really think you're the first one to try to accuse him of hounding rather that reflecting on your own understanding of our includion criteria? (I actually don't know. You might be. But I doubt it.)
    And no. No one is under any obligation to read your massive wall of text, in which you provided no diffs or other clear evidence, before commenting to the effect that you have provided no diffs or other clear evidence. If you don't provide evidence in support of your claims, all the rest of us can do is go looking for ourselves. And if what we find doesn't support your claims, that also is not our fault.
    Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:03, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    To follow my edits and then delete the article created by me is wikihounding. Again, it is not about quality. Otherwise he would have to nominate other articles on the same topics that were not written by me. I have listed this above. It is also not so that all articles of me, which he nominated has been deleted. The article about divisional general Bernhard Müller Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bernhard Müller (Officer)shows very well that he acts AfD abuse. Only because he does 's 0.61 AFDs per day is no sing that this is right..it shows only exesive use of AfD.. and if you look at the topic of this AfD's articles.. you see that my articels are quid "exotic" to the other topics.. he is usualy not active in this topics.. a clear sign that he his wikihounding me. ..it is no coincidence that he now drag FLORIDA Airspace monitoring and management system and SRF Airspace monitoring and management systemto AfD after they exist already 4 years with "Fail WP GNG" at the same time put no other radar system who was not written from me in question (like ] or French air defence radar systems) who's WP GNG is even weaker.Again you do not want to read my text and look at the links on the left. If you do not want to read what I write here is no factual processing this case of you. Sorry. So then I am official have to say:I ask for someone else who take care of this case. Someone who is willing to read all my arguments and to look at all the examples I have brought. This is important- Thank you &byeFFA P-16 (talk) 07:28, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    To follow my edits and then delete the article created by me is wikihounding. Nope. If he sincerely thinks you don't understand our inclusion criteria (and, again, he does sincerely think that until proven otherwise), then checking your contribs and nominating certain pages written by you for deletions is perfectly acceptable.
    Again, it is not about quality. Then how come, on seven of the ten AFDs you linked above, there was clear consensus to delete the pages?
    Otherwise he would have to nominate other articles on the same topics that were not written by me. Again, NO. No one is under any obligation to do more or less than they wish on Misplaced Pages. We are all volunteers here. And there are no articles on the same topics written by other editors -- do you mean "on similar topics"? If so, please see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. If you believe that those other topics don't meet GNG, you should nominate them for deletion. Don't attack The Banner for not nominating them.
    It is also not so that all articles of me, which he nominated has been deleted. I have listed this above. Good for you. Unfortunately, no one said that. I said most. Specifically, 7 out of 10 of the AFDs you linked ended in deletion. And actually, of the other three, two should maybe be reconsidered with MBurch's !vote being discounted as HOUNDing.
    The article about divisional general Bernhard Müller Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bernhard Müller (Officer)shows very well that he acts AfD abuse. If you think that demonstrated abuse of the AFD process, then maybe you think the other four users who !voted to delete (and maybe even the one said "weak keep") are hounding you as well? On top of that, your own conduct in that AFD (repeatedly refusing to focus on content and making constant off-topic remarks about how you don't like The Banner) was atrocious. Linking to it was not a good idea.
    Only because he does 's 0.61 AFDs per day is no sing that this is right..it shows only exesive use of AfD.. No. Lots of editors open a lot of AFDs. I don't know The Banner's particular circumstances, but some monitor new pages, which include a disproportionate number of autobiographies by non-notable individuals, blatant advertising, etc.
    and if you look at the topic of this AfD's articles.. you see that my articels are quid "exotic" to the other topics.. he is usualy not active in this topics.. a clear sign that he his wikihounding me. Wait, what? No one who opens that many AFDs is focused on one topic, so the fact that he doesn't have a particular focus on airports or the armed forces (?) is irrelevant.
    Again you do not want to read my text and look at the links on the left You clearly are not comfortable with me addressing all the numerous problems in those portions of your comments I have read -- do you really want me to go through your first massive wall-of-text and detail all the ways it is wrong and lends itself to my BOOMERANG idea? For example, you say that he is watching your talk page (again, something he is allowed do) and "provocating", but your "diff" of said is a blank link to the Tupolev Voron article, which The Banner has never edited. I thought for a few minutes you were (falsely) accusing him of tagging the article as needing a copyedit and went through it to see if it was accurate, then I looked around a bit and noticed this. You do still need to provide proper attribution when you translate from German Misplaced Pages, and if you translated the version that was originally written by you a year earlier, you need to note that, because, if you translated the version as it appeared when you put the translation on English Misplaced Pages and had been edited by about a dozen other editors, there is a copyright issue. You then go on about not “open” pages on Misplaced Pages, which makes no sense to me. A bit above you Non stoping provocations with a malformed link to four comments by multiple users, in which The Banner said nothing even approaching incivility. Then you say Verh unfriendly acting and threaten to persons who speak up against his wikihounding on me with a similarly malformed link, in which The Banner responds to MBurch's hounding attacks on him in a fairly reasonable manner. Seriously, what are you asking me to look at with all this?
    If you do not want to read what I write here is no factual processing this case of you. Sorry. So then I am official have to say:I ask for someone else who take care of this case. Please familiarize yourself with how ANI works. Like the rest of Misplaced Pages, ANI is voluntary. No one will touch this case, because you made it too long and unintelligible. The thread will likely get archived with no further involvement from any outside parties, unless I open a separate subthread with a coherent argument for some solution to whatever problem I perceive as going on here. And your absolute refusal to provide evidence for your claims (in case it isn't clear, I did read the small portion of your wall of text that appeared to include diffs) is making me inclined to do so in a direction you apparently don't want.
    Someone who is willing to read all my arguments and to look at all the examples I have brought. No one is going to read your massive, incoherent walls of text. If you have concrete examples, you should link them. I read through everything you provided that had a link attached to it, and didn't see anything of substance.
    Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:06, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Hijiri. But you obviously do not want to see it. He nominates me very clearly articles in areas where he is never active. And there only items of mine no others. Even if he makes a lot of AfD's strikes this conspicuousness. I also find it wrong the people who have voted for the receipt of some articles from me and who have approached the unfriendly approach of The banner now condemned for their substantive contribution. There will be no factual reasoning on the examples which I have brought forth. Only weill The banner many edits and AfD's makes it is not trustworthy. The only thing I want is that he leaves me alone. Clearly all work here voluntarily. But this is not an obstacle for someone else to take care of this case. I am very disappointed that you do not take me seriously.
    If you are not willing to take care of my concerns and no one else wants to take care of this case, I see no further meaning in this discussion. Then you can close it because it brings nothing and will only encourage The Banner in the fight against me.FFA P-16 (talk) 09:43, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    Okay, you clearly can't be reasoned with. I have read everything you have written on this page, and there is nothing to it. But you are clearly not interested in acknowledging that fact. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:04, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    In fact, I did not want to reply at all at this thread. It is the another instance of the ongoing harassment and bullying campaign of mr. FFA P-16 and his assistant MBurch. It is loud and clear that MBurch is called in to protect FFA P-16. Although his bullying/harassing is annoying, it only confirmed to me that the advice given to mr. FFA P-16 is completely ignored. And he stepped up his campaign after I nominated an attack page for deletion. He seems to think that sandbox pages are sacrosanct and untouchable to others. And that the rules of Misplaced Pages do not apply to him. See User talk:The Banner#Stop Wikihounding me!. He also seems to think that I have a personal grudge against him because he is Swiss. As a matter of fact, I do not care at all about that. But I have told/advised/urged FFA P-16 to do three things:
    1. Get a clear idea of what the community regards notable
    2. Get a clear idea of what the community regards as proper sourcing according to WP:RS
    3. Get a clear idea that it is worthwhile to make an effort to improve your English
    I have seen no effort whatsoever to address these issues.
    Mr. FFA P-16 also took offence out of my sockpuppet investigation relating to MBurch. He seems to have forgotten the fact that he is earlier blocked for sockpuppetry, and and on the Dutch Misplaced Pages.
    To finish this off: I do not seek any blocks. What I want are two things: a) that the present campaign stops, and b) that FFA P-16 makes a visible effort to address the three issues listed a few lines above. The Banner talk 09:04, 1 May 2017 (UTC)


    Circle at Zurich Airport

    When I edited the page of Zurich Airport (the circle section) the user The Banner delated my New adding without a giustification. The aviation user. Zurich00swiss (talk) 11:30, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

    Diffs please. I can't see anything in the recent history that supports your claim... --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 11:39, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
    @Zurich00swiss: Please provide diffs, and if you posted the above in an attempt to "pile on" because you just don't like the user in question, note that you may well be met with a boomerang for hounding. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:19, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

    Proposal: Indefinite one-way interaction ban

    Okay, I was annoyed enough by FFA's disruption clearly on display in this thread, but now that it's been pointed out to me that he created a WP:POLEMIC about The Banner here and denied the SPEEDY request with the counter-policy statement that Its MY workpage it's clear that something needs to be done. I'm therefore requesting that FFA P-16 (talk · contribs) be indefinitely banned from interacting with The Banner (talk · contribs). If The Banner nominates a page written by FFA for deletion, it should be the community's decision, and the project will not benefit from FFA showing up and posting more off-topic personal attacks against The Banner. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:20, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

    Just to make it clear, user X requests a majority of user Y's articles for deletions and you suggests now that Y is now allowed to even argue with X on those deletion requests of his very own articles (since there is no other interaction from Y besides that workpage19 which should be simply deleted)? --MBurch (talk) 12:42, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    @MBurch: So you agree that User Y created an attack page about User X that should be deleted, and when it was requested that the page be deleted User Y reverted the request and placed a statement on the page that he owns it and so presumably can post whatever he wants on it? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:26, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    I'm sure you're aware of actio et reactio. --MBurch (talk) 22:55, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    I assume that you are implying that since The Banner was the original aggressor, FFA was justified in creating that attack page and preventing it from being deleted? But you still have not presented any evidence that The Banner was the original aggressor. Both of you are claiming that he nominated a bunch of articles created by FFA for deletion based not on the merits of the article but out of a desire to hound FFA. But I presented you with pretty incontrovertible evidence that this is not the case. The Banner nominates hundreds of pages by countless users for deletion, and in all but a few of the cases you listed a plurality of other editors agreed the pages should be deleted. All I am seeing is The Banner posting Good Faith AFDs (and constructive criticism of honestly pretty atrocious articles that don't necessarily merit deletion), FFA refusing to listen, and assuming bad faith by accusing The Banner of HOUNDing. You can try asking JoshuSasori (talk · contribs) what happens when you constantly make bad faith accusations of HOUNDing while engaging in HOUNDing yourself. That guy actually got SBANned for his efforts, then engaged in block-evasion via several IPs and actually did revenge-AFD a bunch of articles I had written (well, actually there was only one AFD opened via proxy, two article blankings, and one successful PROD of a sub-stub). You clearly do not know what you are talking about when you talk of HOUNDing; I do. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:32, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    The Banner nominates hundreds of pages by countless users for deletion and he suspects always sockpuppets when they don't agree? Of course not just in our case and just in the case of FFA P-16 he nominates several pages together. --MBurch (talk) 09:24, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    @MBurch: That is a personal attack and you should strike it unless you can provide evidence. If you are referring exclusively to the FFA SPI where you were blocked, you should say as much. On top of that: You were confirmed by CU to be a sock of FFA P-16, and CUs need a lot of DUCK evidence before they agree to perform that procedure, and the check was pre-endorsed by an SPI clerk. It's an established fact that FFA P-16 has abused multiple accounts in the past and in the case of you and M1712, it was really frickin' obvious that something fishy was going on, be it sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry. Just drop it already and go edit articles, or you will be reblocked as WP:NOTHERE, regardless of whether you were later vindicated with regards to your not actually being the same person as FFA P-16. It's been three months -- let it go, as the wickedly talented Adele Dazeem would say... Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:15, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    No this was not an attack, this was collecting cases of actions against me, so that I can bring this here on Ani. You broght it by your self to the light.. here you can see that he is following me yes hi is doing a lot of deletions 0,6 per day in one year is a lot (and in some kind it smells as to trigger happy for AfD's). But if you have a look ate the list you have presented It is not on random themes (Tv Stations, beauty contest persons) the pattern definitive fit not to the topics of my articels (military aviation, swiss). It is understandable that many new articels come to AfD, but also this dosent fit here because he nominated just in the past few weeks articels from me who existed since 3-4 years. This is no coincidence.FFA P-16 (talk) 11:50, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    FFA, it's been several days, so I'm going to start being frank. Your English is terrible, and at best difficult to decipher, and you clearly are not reading and fully understanding my comments. So please refrain from responding in other users' stead, because it makes discussion extremely difficult. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:04, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    You have already forgotten my talkpage? And take a look at the talkpage of mr. FFA P-16. Not the current version, as he wipes out everything he does not like, but the older versions. Like this one. The Banner talk 13:25, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    Well the Talkpage is there for to communicate wit an other user, or inform ihm about something.. I informed you that i wish that you stop follw me. How should I communicate with you without using the talk page. everyone can clean its talkpage like he want.. it is nothing wrong with deleting old stuff and its also not wrong keeping some of it. Also veryon can keep positiv replays on the talk page if he wish. that you are monitoring my talkpage and their history shows again suspicious direction stalking FFA P-16 (talk) 13:40, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    I have informed you about issues with notability, issues with sourcing and issues with your language and all this was ignored. Not even the spell checker you took aboard... The Banner talk 21:56, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
    Everything probably a reason for an improvement tag but not for AfD, also the one with Bernhard Müller is a good example that your interpretation of notability is also not always correct. And if you posted this on my talk page.There is no need to let it stand there, so I can empty the talk page whenever I want. That is nothing bad.FFA P-16 (talk) 12:04, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    quod erat demonstrandum --MBurch (talk) 22:58, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

    Alternative proposal

    There are several problems, here.

    • FFA P-16 has a poor command of the English language, resulting in poorly written articles.
    • FFA P-16's love of the Swiss air force leads him to loose sight of notability issues.
    • The Banner has been hounding FFA P-16, nominating nearly every article FFA P-16 started. been communicating extremely ineffectively.
    • The Banner has a tendency to skip due diligence before nominating FFA P-16's articles. Case in point Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bernhard Müller (Officer).

    The drama has been going on at least two years. This has to end.

    A proposed solution:

    1. FFA P-16 is only allowed to create new articles via the AfC-process. This will address the language and notability problems.
    2. An interaction ban between The Banner and FFA P-16 (both ways). This includes a ban for The Banner to nominate any article created by FFA P-16, thus eliminating 90% of the drama. If The Banner feels one of FFA P-16's articles is so bad it must be nominated, he can alert another editor to the problem, who can then nominate it.

    Kleuske (talk) 11:30, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

    P.S. I volunteer my time to a) check any of FFA P-16's articles and b) look at any problem The Banner sees with any of FFA P-16's articles and nominate if necessary. Kleuske (talk) 11:46, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Kleuske: You should strike bullet point 3. No evidence of hounding has been presented. ArbCom actually explicitly stated that checking a user's contribs for legit reasons (like the good-faith belief that the user doesn't understand notability guidelines, a belief you admit you share). See Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Catflap08 and Hijiri88#Hounding. You can read through the entire case if you want, or you can take my word for it: his was pretty much the same situation, with users make the same faulty assumption (in violation of AGF) that what was happening constituted "hounding". You admit in bullet point 2 that The Banner had a good-faih reason for examining FFA's contribs, so what you are doing is arguably worse than what the Committee described there: you are declaring bad faith against your own declared understanding to the contrary. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:24, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    I would support this proposal in place of my own, assuming User:The Banner (who still appears to be the victim here, per all the evidence I've seen) is game for a mutual IBAN, which would protect him from further harassment. In my experience, mutual IBANs are very easy for harassers to game, so I would add that the IBAN be slightly modified to allow requests to observers like Kleuske and me (but not obvious meatpuppets or the like) to look into it and decide whether there has been a violation to be covered under BANEX. Put in other words, messages about the other user on the user talk pages of no more than one or two other users at a time should be allowed in lieu of reporting violations directly to an admin or on ANI. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:07, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    Changed to unconditional supportThe Banner's extremely immature response to Kleuske's good-faith attempt to resolve this (immediately below) has convinced me to change my mind. I still think he is the victim of hounding, and I still think the proposed IBAN will quickly be gamed by FFA and MBurch, but I just don't care anymore if The Banner is going to show more interested in fighting over it than actually resolving it. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:06, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    Conditional support The proposed solution would solve the problem, and I think The Banner should voluntarily accept it for the time being. IBANs are super-easy to appeal once the other party gets site-banned or stops editing once their articles continue to get deleted. I'm changing back to conditional support, not based on the condition that The Banner voluntarily accepts, but based on the condition that Kleuske's flawed premise is stricken. I had actually forgotten until just now that ArbCom had explicitly ruled in my case (a case quite similar to this in several ways) that (1) actions amounting to what The Banner has done do not constitute hounding, (2) actions amounting to what MBurch has done (though over a longer period of time) do constitute hounding (if not off-site and/or stealth canvassing or meatpuppetry), and (3) what MBurch, FFA, and even (to a lesser extent) Kleuske have done is contrary to AGF. Kleuske should strike out bullet point 3, or my support for this proposal (based on a flawed and problematic premise that's personally offensive to me as a former victim of hounding) should be taken as null and void. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:24, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    It takes some effort from both sides to keep the drama going for this amount of time and The Banner does not show an attitude that's particularly conciliatory or helpful. Instead he shows all signs of holding grudges. I have trouble seeing The Banner as a victim. Kleuske (talk) 16:55, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Hijiri88: If either of them try to game the AfC process or the IBAN, I will personally report them here and request a block. Promise. Kleuske (talk) 11:02, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    It took you a long time to show up here, Kleuske. And your attempt to put the blame on my shoulders is just as predictable as you showing up here. But your statement (...) nominating nearly every article FFA P-16 started. is evidently false. The Banner talk 15:43, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    @The Banner: You're not helping... Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:06, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    True. But Kleuske and me have a long record of personal discord. Beside that, in my experience the AfC-process only looks at the notability of a subject, not to quality, sourcing or spelling. So it will address only one part of the signalled problems. The Banner talk 09:41, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    It shouldn't matter from who the proposal is, but only if it's able to solve the problems.--MBurch (talk) 10:41, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    But I am willing to step aside for a while and see if Kleuske, MBurch and the AfC-process really can help fix the issues. I promise to stay away (for starters) to 1 July 2017. The Banner talk 11:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    I think it should be more than just a temporary stop especially since you're in general not writing in Swiss Air Force aviation as FFA P-16 does.--MBurch (talk) 11:34, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    Thank you Kleuske. I will agree 100% to your solution. And all rouls who this solution contains for me.FFA P-16 (talk) 14:04, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    Don't thank me yet, i'll require significant coverage in reliable sources. I was this close to proposing a site-ban for competence issues and this does not help. Hör mal... Dein Englisch is wirklich grottenschlecht. Fast Kauderwelsch. Du must dich wirklich mal überlegen ob du sinnvoll beitragen kannst wenn fast jeder satz praktisch übersetzt werden muss. Kleuske (talk) 18:20, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    Agree and I volunteer my time to improve FFA P-16's articles. --MBurch (talk) 14:17, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Support Will end the drama and help the editors and Misplaced Pages. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 15:11, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Note I find it extremely suspicious how readily FFA and his obvious meatpuppet MBurch accepted this proposal, and am a little concerned that they might immediately try to game it as I outlined above. Both users have email enabled, and even if they didn't they are both more active on de.wiki than here, where they would technically not be restricted from discussing The Banner. I'm not going to withdraw my support or anything, but I think it would be a good idea to sanction MBurch as well to prevent him from proxy-hounding in FFA's stead. Note also how the indentation on MBurch's !vote implies he was supporting in direct response to FFA giving his approval.
    I also find it concerning that, while FFA's English is terrible and MBurch does seem qualified to improve that one aspect of his articles, the main reason for all the AFDs was notability, and MBurch still has not acknowledged that the topics did not meet our notability criteria (insisting instead that The Banner was motivated solely by a desire to hound FFA), which may indicate a poor understanding of said notability criteria, and I therefore think it would be a good idea if he limited his time to improve FFA P-16's articles to copy-editing, and refrained from mainspacing any drafts himself and !voting in any future AFDs.
    Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:15, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    Stricken per above. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:06, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Oppose Clearly The Banner is just the front man in a wikipedia process, I certainly would have nominated the same articles for deletion if Banner had not got there first. FFA P-16 has been a bit of a time sink for the aircraft/aviation project, his failure to understand English and the requirements to understand for example that not every aspect of the Swiss Air Force is actually notable enough for an article. Most articles are machine translations from German wikipedia and FFP P-16 has clear competence issues with English language and despite efforts over the years I believe the only remedy is a site ban on English wikipedia. But just to note I would not support any sanction for The Banner and see no reason why they should stand aside, in fact he probably needs some sort of award for enduring endless harrasement from FFA P-16 and others brought over from de wiki. MilborneOne (talk) 18:01, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    Just to be clear, I still morally support the sentiment in the above comment. I disagree with the third bullet point in Kleuske's opening remark (which I think constitutes a personal attack, as it is made without evidence), and I strongly suspect the fourth bullet point is bull as well (one bad AFD, if it even was that, is not evidence that he has a consistent pattern of not performing due diligence). I just want this mess to be over, and I think The Banner has been rather uncooperative in this process as well. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:04, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    Cooperation stops (has to) at the edge of Misplaced Pages rules. It is a fact that FFA P-16 is hardly able to cope with Wikipedias rules even in german. But I got here for MBurch which is another fanatic non learner himself (and the best excuse to hound seems to claim hounding). His engagement is strictly for personal reasons, not for good of Misplaced Pages. On the contrary: Mburchs unreflected and even agressive absolute support undermines every effort to improve FFA P-16’s capabilities. Mburch is rather part of the problem, not of a solution . --2A02:1206:45AE:7E0:7104:7303:6966:8F30 (talk) 10:29, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Umm... thanks for agreeing with me on just about everything, but... do you have an account? I know it's conceivably possible that someone who only edits from dynamic IPs could !vote in an ANI discussion in good faith, but I haven't seen it happen before, and there's been a whole lot of socktrolling over the last few days. If you are just a dynamic IP could you link to some of your other edits? Sorry, but I'm not a hypocrite -- if a sock agrees with me I'll call them out the same as a sock who's specifically targeting me. (Although honestly, MBurch doesn't seem to have enough of an edit history to have someone logging out to troll them. I wouldn't be surprised if this was a joe-job.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:52, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Go for Air14&action=history to decide, whether I’m able to contribute to an article. Another example though for “ungratefulness”. I could actually contribute to some of those articles but won’t, if both of the “twinned” users (sorry, not meant as an offence but to describe a fact) are there.--2A02:1206:45AE:7E0:DEA:4B2E:4D1F:111E (talk) 08:44, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Ah, okay. I see you disputed with FFA back shortly after that page survived AFD. It's still theoretically possible that you could be The Banner, but that wouldn't make any sense as he edited that page logged-in, and would have had no reason to manufacture a false consensus in that situation. Yeah, you've demonstrated adequately enough for me that you're not someone's sock or in any way related to the trolls that have been plaguing this page for the last week or so. Sorry to ask you to explain yourself. I fixed the link for you, anyway. Cheers! Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:27, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Thanks for fixing the link (I was in a hurry). This more exact link, , reveals another point: FFA P-16 obviously wrote an essay based on his personal knowledge which is (unhappy to say) restricted - a lot to actuality. This takes us back to notabilty. MBurch couldn't be a help there as he hardly sees these problems but fules discussions if there is any critics among: His second contribution to a discussion in 2017 (or his 6th contribution within 4 years at all) was regarded as a personal attack . --2A02:1206:45AE:7E0:4519:903E:F3BF:2463 (talk) 10:23, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Yeah, I saw a similar case to this recently and there expressed a similar concern to yours above. There was one user consistently trying to enable another user's disruptive behaviour and repeatedly refusing to admit disruption was taking place. The solution was that mentoring was needed, and the user who was denying that disruption was taking place wound up being named as the mentor, which was honestly a pretty disastrous solution there. This is why I think expanding the solution to this problem to tell MBurch that if he engages in any more behaviour that seems disruptive, he will be blocked.
    Although, given the NOTHERE nature of his activities, I wouldn't be opposed to a straight-off indef. Foreign-language Wikipedians who only edit English Misplaced Pages to hound people and get in fights are NOTHERE -- this is how I was once, mistakenly, treated on Japanese Misplaced Pages, and I was threatened with a block by a good-faith admin who mistakenly thought I was forum-shopping an English Misplaced Pages dispute there. Similarly to MBurch here, now, basically my entire edit history at that time made me look like I was hounding Juzumaru. The difference is that where in my case it was all a misunderstanding and it was Juzumaru who was at fault, there is no evidence that The Banner has been harassing MBurch on de.wiki and goading him to come over here. In fact the two don't seem to have ever interacted on de.wiki (the EditorInteract tool seems to be failing me here, though, as it claims The Banner has only six edits despite some other evidence to the contrary).
    Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:37, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    sorry, I didn't mean to make you write such a long answer. I can now tell you why I edited once again this morning: I did it just because I was sure that MBurch would add my IP (again) to a sockpuppet-investigation on the german wikipedia. And YES - here he goes: . It' so easy to predict a man on a mission...
    Of course it doesn't make sense, to add an IP to a sockpuppet-investigation, if that IP has never even edited in the german wikipedia. But who cares about rules or sense, if one is on a mission... Happy fishing! (In german it is called "fishing for sockpuppets" if you cannot prove a misuse but want to see who it was - of course the rules don't allow that). --2A02:1206:45AE:7E0:1462:F8AD:1249:C1BC (talk) 21:10, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    Evidence

    2014

    Hijiri88 is correct that evidence should be presented if you accuse someone of hounding. At the very least I would claim that the communication between these two is anything but exemplary. It strts with two nominations

    Then comes a spat about the merging of Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Super Puma Display Team in which the banner accuses FFA P-16 of promo, editwarring and a "distinguished career of blowing things way out of proportion".

    2015

    • The Banner removes "irrelavant parts", an edit-war0like interaction between FFA and TB ensues, TB issues a 3RR warning (despite being the other party)
    • A day later KZD-85 is nominated by TB (result: keep)
    • There is an interaction with another user over overuse of images. TB chimes in with the remark "Come on, FFA! This is not the first time that you are adding irrelevant details or plain fancruft to articles"
    • TB accuses FFA of disruptive editing and tells him "Stop with adding fancruft!" Restores his comments on FFA's TP after FFA deleted them. Accuses FFA of WP:NOTHERE and promo.
    • TB nominates FFA's userpage for deletion (result Delete). Threatens FFA with AN/I in the process.

    2016

    • A spat in Draft:RUAG Aviation over bad English. The article has since been draftified
      • An (unambiguous) PA by FFA against TB results in TB issuing a level 2 warning against FFA.

    etc.

    2017

    ... (no time) The above may not add up to WP:HOUNDING as defined by the ArbCom, but I get how FFA gets the idea TB is relentlessly on his case. I also acknowledge FFA's English is very poor (grottenschlecht), and TB was right to point that out. That does not absolve TB from WP:CIVIL. These two editors got off on the wrong foot and the situation has deteriorated since. Some solution is urgently called for. Kleuske (talk) 13:11, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

    @Kleuske: You're right that a bunch of that is below the belt, and I would advise User:The Banner to be a lot more careful about rhetoric. Sorry to invoke ArbCom again, but, yeah, WP:Civility is our most important policy, outweighing all the others combined. The highest court in the land doesn't care about GNG, good encyclopedic writing style, verifiability or anything else, so you have to respect C above everything else.
    That said: ANI is a bit more free to deal with things in their proper context, and honestly I think Misplaced Pages would be a better place if we treated civil POV-pushers the same way we treat good editors with short tempers.
    Plus, some of the above evidence seems to have been cherry-picked to make The Banner's behaviour look worse than it was. For example, why are only three of the AFDs that are supposedly the whole cause of the problem listed, and those three all keeps? FFA gave what looked like a more random (comprehensive?) sample further up, and 70% of those ended with delete results.
    Anyway, whether or not The Banner's behaviour has been sub-par and should perhaps be sanctioned, Kleuske has now formally retracted the "hounding" accusation, but MBurch and FFA still have not. MBurch in particular has provided no evidence, and making accusations about hounding without evidence, particularly after it has been requested, constitutes a personal attack. This, on top of his continued grossly uncivil attacks on me near the top of the thread, leads me to wonder why we are continuing to tolerate his presence here. He has contributed nothing to English Misplaced Pages (his entire edit history consists of following FFA and TB around, uniformly propping up the former and undermining with the latter). I'm therefore increasingly skeptical that a remedy focused solely on TB and FFA would solve the problem.
    Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:08, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    I am very pleased with Kleuske's proposal~(to check my work.. se his statement above). I will anyway kep down with writing in The English wikipedia. And if I would like to bring something in, I then use the offer of MBurch to rework the English. I think that if Kleuske has checked it before, there is no direct contact between me and The Banner, no conflict potential. It is only my concern that the articles I written so far get not nominadet for deletion by The Banner. That Kleuske, has an eye on it. Improved, yes, but not to triggerhappy deleteion. What the banner does otherwise .. working on articels about TV channels, restaurants, Beauticontests. No matter what .. I am not interested and is therefore not a conflict potential. I felt pushed by the banner and MBurch shared this feeling and tryed me to help.. it looks like in the english wikipedia are things not the same like in the german wikipedia..so his intervention was done in good faith,because it looked to him like The Banner is buging me. If the proposal of Kleuske wins, there is no reason why I or MBurch would not agree with this. No reason for us to criticize in future.The banner. I hope this will find a peaceful end for all.FFA P-16 (talk) 16:54, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    @FFA P-16: Nobody wins, here. We all lose. Your behavior towards The Banner is at least as bad as vice versa. I'm not on your side, I'm trying to control the damage. Kleuske (talk) 18:09, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    Kleuske, I just beeing thankful that you brought in something what loocks to me as a good solution. For me its not about to "win".. like I said:I hope this will find a peaceful end for all (also for The Banner).FFA P-16 (talk) 18:28, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Hijiri88: The Banner is a very productive editor and a boon to the project. The last thing on my mind is making him look bad. At least 50% of the blame rests firmly on FFA's shoulders, who has CIR-issues to boot, but I wanted to point out where all the bad blood on FFA's side comes from. Having walked my dog, I do have second thoughts and regret posting it.
    TB does have a tendency to go overboard and tends to turn matters into a personal affair (see his reaction to me, above), which has landed him on this notice-board more than once (and please don't make me cite examples). I proposed the IBAN not to spite The Banner, but to get him off FFA's case and let someone else handle it, since this is getting counter productive. Misplaced Pages can handle a poorly written article about an obscure, possibly non-notable subject in piss poor English much better than a three year drama. Any action, however justified, TB takes involving FFA only adds fuel to the fire. Hence my proposal. Kleuske (talk) 17:36, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    Ubi pus, ibi evacua Kleuske (talk) 18:31, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    That being said. I'm getting more and more convinced a site-ban per WP:CIR for FFA P-16 due to a lack of language skills would be justifiable, too. Kleuske (talk) 19:15, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    If he is just translatign German into English, isn't there a tag for that so it can be copyedited? d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 00:44, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

    Supplementary proposal: 6-month probation for MBurch

    In light of the behaviour displayed in this thread and over the last several months, I propose a final warning for MBurch (talk · contribs). If, during the next six months, he engages in behaviour that could reasonably be interpreted as WP:HOUNDING, appears to be acting as a proxy to allow FFA to violate the above-proposed IBAN, or otherwise behaves in an uncivil manner, he may be blocked from editing English Misplaced Pages by any admin without further warning. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:42, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

    Extended content
    I didn't mean to attack you at all, I just believe you're comments were not much helpful. In my personal opinion you increased the conflict while others tried to find a solution in short, brief words. Fact is I signed up 21th of November 2010, I have globally over 25'000 contributions mostly in German Misplaced Pages, but a few on commons, wikidata and others, too . --MBurch (talk) 08:51, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Responded to the above duplicated comment above, where it belongs. This proposal has nothing to do with MBurch's global contributions, and is not specifically about his personal attacks against me. I would have made basically the same proposal based on his hounding of The Banner and his wikilawyerish attempts to get me in trouble (blocked?) for "calling him a sockpuppet" (something I never did) by pinging the admin who unblocked him.
    MBurch, if you want to respond to my proposal on its merits, please do so outside of this collapse template. If you continue to post off-topic commentary in this subsection I will take it as a deliberate attempt to filibuster the proposal by preventing discussion.
    Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:26, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

    Cross project image copyvios

    Yahadzija (talk · contribs)

    Above editor has been blocked on Commons for repeated upload of image copyvios after numerous attempts to get them to stop. Almost immediately after they were blocked on Commons they began uploading copyvios here instead. From what I can gather at Commons, they seem to have a serious misunderstanding of copyright law which revolves around the difference between ownership of the physical image and ownership of the copyright. Their almost immediate upload of copyvios here after their block on Commons makes them a serious threat of disruption. Asking for an administrator to block and delete images uploaded from May 2nd on (see Special:ListFiles/Yahadzija). --Majora (talk) 21:05, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

    The problems are a bit subtle, but are definitely there, and we don't want a problem on the same scale as they've caused at Commons. A lot of the copyvios are borderline fair use (scans of historical images for which there would be no reasonable replacement etc) but some are pretty blatantly claiming ownership of an image where they've just scanned an image from a textbook or modified an image they've found somewhere on the web. Unless they show up here demonstrating a good understanding of the problems (and reading their talk page at Commons, that seems rather unlikely) I'd suggest a tban from uploading files would be appropriate. GoldenRing (talk) 23:30, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    I support a TBAN as well. —JJBers 23:34, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    @GoldenRing: If this was a one time issue and was isolated to here that would be acceptable. The facts of the matter is that they immediately came here and continued to violate copyright after their block on Commons. That is far worse and demonstrates a clear disregard for what people are trying to tell them and an even clearer disregard for copyright. Actually, seeing as they are blocked on 7 projects (4 indefinitely) they are a net negative to the entire wikimedia project as a whole. I'm seriously debating on asking for a lock on their account from a steward. They certainly qualify for one as the abuse is widespread. --Majora (talk) 23:41, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    As a side note, GoldenRing. Nothing they have uploaded since their block on Commons would qualify for fair use. Not a single one. They are either blatantly replaceable or are on pages that would not meet fair use policy. --Majora (talk) 23:53, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Majora: Do you have some reason to think that recent uploads such as File:Crna_rijeka,_Tributary_of_Ilomska.png are copyvios? They claim to have taken the photo themselves. A Google images search doesn't immediately turn up anything and I don't see any particular reason to doubt it, but I've only had a modest look into it. GoldenRing (talk) 01:22, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
    @GoldenRing: Some of them definitely are copyvios. Those include maps such as File:Ilomska confluent basin.jpg, its dup File:Ilomska-sliv.jpg, and File:Ploca-1.jpg which is constrained by freedom of panorama restrictions and is likely a derivative work anyways. Some of them maybe out of copyright but I'd have to do more investigation. They certainly did not personally take File:Pioneer troop in Šiprage, 1943.jpg and it clearly shows their misunderstanding between physical ownership of the image and ownership of the copyright. The others (including the one you specifically asked about) are suspicious simply because of past bad behaviors. Any semblance of trust that this person will properly follow copyright has been completely and utterly destroyed by their continual upload of copyvios. They get blocked in one project and just move on to the next repeating the pattern again and again. I certainly hope the global lock goes through but as of right now the disruption is directly affecting enwiki and needs to be dealt with. --Majora (talk) 02:23, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
    Second side note. It looks like an anon IP already beat me to the global lock request on meta --Majora (talk)
    @Majora: I appreciate that the problem is widespread and I'm not necessarily opposed to just blocking them. On the other hand, looking through their Commons user talk page, I see a lot of templates and not much effort to educate the user. That effort may have gone in somewhere on some other wiki but I've not seen it yet. And, on a brief look, apart from the image uploads, most of their editing seems to be okay. So I'd prefer to see a resolution that's not just indeffing them. GoldenRing (talk) 01:35, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
    Well, as far as I can tell, the choice is between a tban from uploads and a site ban. The basis for the choice is whether some vaguely positive editing here outweighs disruption on our wikis that has led to numerous site hand elsewhere. I'm leaning slightly towards a topic ban, but I certainly won't oppose a site ban. GoldenRing (talk) 11:03, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
    Given the response at their talk page so far, I'm now leaning to a CIR block. GoldenRing (talk) 12:17, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
    I think that was just a misunderstanding of the reason for the block, but there has clearly been copyright violations of text too, so CIR might be the problem. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:32, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

    This user immediately resumed their previous behaviour within minutes of the expiry of their earlier block. As such, I have replaced it with an indefinite block. Any admin is welcome to lift the block if they are convinced the copyright violations will cease (including, say, a promise to refrain from any action around images, though there were concerns about textual copyvios, too). --Yamla (talk) 11:29, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

    Just for the record, yes, there were text copyvios too; see the histories of antisuppressor and nonsense suppression for examples. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:00, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    I'm going to write up a global ban proposal. The user is blocked on more than 5 wikis. TJH2018talk 15:36, 9 May 2017 (UTC) Please see meta:Requests for comment/Global ban for Yahadzija. TJH2018talk 15:46, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    Personal attack based on ethnicity/nationality at Talk:RT (TV network)

    Is this personal attack by SpikeballUnion of the type that can and should be removed immediately? I think it is, but Keith-264 thinks it's not. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:26, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

    From the looks of it, it looks like a personal attack. —JJBers 21:33, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
    I objected to Fleischman calling it an ethnic slur; Polish is a nationality and he has reverted it properly now. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 21:37, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
    Keith-264 didn't like my edit summary, so he reverted me and restored an ad hominem attack on another editor's ethnicity or nationality. Wow. Just wow. And I never called it a slur, so that's just weird. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:09, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
    Well, in the context of the situation, it looks like a slur. —JJBers 21:38, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
    Is this a place where I can add my own input? SpikeballUnion (talk) 21:59, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
    Looks like it is. My use of "Polish", the nationality (not ethnicity), was in the context of the Joseph Stalin article, in reference to the fact that the user might have some inherent biases (seeing as he objected my neutral-point-of-view edits) as Stalin had invaded Poland and that a communist government had been set up there, ruling for 40 years, and that Poland is now an EU and NATO member. It was not an ethnic slur. SpikeballUnion (talk) 00:17, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Hmm. I assumed it had to do with the stereotype of Poles being "slow" up top. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 00:19, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    I've never heard of that stereotype. This was the only use I intended for it, and I apologise that I did not make it clear enough on the talk page (although I thought I made it pretty clear on my user talk page). I also apologise if this use in of itself was not appropriate, and if so shall refrain from ever doing it again. SpikeballUnion (talk) 00:25, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

    Not sure if Keith has been notified of discretionary sanctions for eastern european topics, but this could be taken to WP:AE.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:41, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

    • (Non-administrator comment) Without looking at the context (I don't even know whether the "Polish opinion" in question was actually an opinion expressed by the person being addressed, or if it was a strawman) I can only say that, in general, the view that "That's your opinion, and any television station could be referred to as primitive propaganda" is, in theory, acceptable (and so the best part of the comment should not be stricken). Furthermore, "ethnnicity" clearly has nothing to do with this, the subject was attributing a particular political view to people from a particular nation-state. If someone said to me "That's your Irish opinion, that the BBC is primitive propaganda", it would clearly not be based on ethnicity and I wouldn't take it as such. It would be ridiculous, laughable, uncivil and rather dickish, but not an ethnic slur. Whether in this case it constituted a personal attack may depend on context and, as I said, I haven't looked at that. But insinuating that it is based on ethnicity doesn't help, so that question should just be ignored. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:54, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    " "ethnnicity" clearly has nothing to do with this, the subject was attributing a particular political view to people from a particular nation-state" Uhhh... what? You sort of contradict yourself there. " If someone said to me "That's your Irish opinion, that the BBC is primitive propaganda", it would clearly not be based on ethnicity" Uh, what, again. You do realize that "Irish" is an ethnicity, right? Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:05, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Nope. People don't hold political views because of their "ethnicity", and if they do hold such political views, pointing out that they hold them is not a personal attack based on ethnicity. And no, "Irish" is both an ethnicity and a nationality, and there are tons of people of Irish citizenship who are not "ethnically Irish". I am (ethnically Irish) and I don't think the BBC is primitive propaganda. There are, though, people who are ethnically Han Chinese or of various Nigerian ethnicities (sorry -- the Irish media just call them Nigerians, and I haven't seen figures for the ethnic background of various immigrant populations; but they're not ethnically Irish) who hold Irish citizenship and hold various political positions with regard to foreign media, and those positions are influenced by their being Irish (having been born in Ireland and holding Irish citizenship). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:13, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    -Its not a discussion where i am involved in but i think its pretty unfair that SpikeballUnion and is accused of insulting @Xx236. Xx236 is pretty upfront that he is Polish, and he is very hostile in his wordings of things when it come to replying to other people, he accused me of reading "Russian Propaganda" RT for no reason whats so ever, when it was about another topic.
    And he insulted me by saying my edits are trash in two incidents 1 2, so calling other prison victims trash is okay? But calling some one for the nationality he obviously is, thats not okay? And here is more hostile choices of wording he is using recently. This user is obviously the hostile one that should be in question, not SpikeballUnion.--Crossswords (talk) 08:18, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    I mean that RT spreads propaganda of the Russian government, not of ethnic Russian people. I don't have any data about connection between Russian ethnicity and RT opinions. Some Russians reject RT propaganda.
    Please write Polish.
    Criticizing your biased edits isn't insulting to you.
    I find insulting to me your edits rationalizing Soviet mass crimes, during which members of my family were murdered. Xx236 (talk) 08:37, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    The topic we edited wasnt anything about RT, so why you brought it up in the first place? Because i am of Russian ethnicity as can be seen on my User page or what? Thats the same attitude SpikeballUnion is accused of. And what makes you think RT is propaganda that you are allowed to use it as something to label other people? There is also no Russian version of RT, by the way.
    I dont rationalize anything, adding things in the See Also category, to give more information about other similar events isnt rationalizing Katyn, and you were the one who asked for it in one discussion. So you think my opinions are biased when all you do is Poland and Anti-Soviet related stuff here on Misplaced Pages?
    Yes calling someone else edits trash is insulting, especially when its anything related to WW2. Its more insulting than pointing out your ethnicity in an argument. And you didnt specified any edits, you just called it me "adding trash".--Crossswords (talk) 11:02, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    I must echo Crosswords' views here. Xx236 has been involved in a great-deal of POV-pushing and WP:Advocacy at articles such as Vladimir Lenin and Joseph Stalin over the past few weeks, and has sometimes been slightly un-civil while doing so. They are openly Polish and make it abundantly apparent that their staunch anti-Soviet attitude stems from the experiences that Poland, the Polish people, and family members of theirs had during the twentieth-century. I think that SpikeballUnion's choice of original wording ("Polish opinion") was ill-advised, but the basic point that they were trying to make—that Xx236 is so caught up in Polish antipathy toward the Soviets that they are unable to edit Soviet and Russian themed topics neutrally and without POV pushing—is sound. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:04, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    Both Vladimir Lenin and Joseph Stalin were biased, of poor quality, when I started recently to criticize the pages. Some of the errors have been removed as the result of my critics, some errors and biased opoinions are defended by a small group.
    You are misusing this forum to ad personal attack and defence of biased pages instead to use the talk pages, where you ignore my critics.Xx236 (talk) 12:48, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    The main part of Vladimir Lenin exists as Government of Vladimir Lenin. Is it a good practice to describe the same problems twice? It would be interestingg to compare the two pages. Xx236 (talk) 12:55, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    I'm using mostly foreign sources - US and Russian, so please don't accuse me falsely of Polish antipathy. I have quoted Vladimir Putin, is he Polish?Xx236 (talk) 12:57, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    Your recent edit in Vladimir Lenin proves that you accept only your POV. The Polish-Soviet war describes the 1919 conflict totally differently and quotes many references. Bad Poles and good Soviet, academic TRUTH. Please read Isaac Babel (not Polish).Xx236 (talk) 13:14, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    You have removed the information that Lenin's corpse is still presented in Moscow. I find such action counterproductive. Main Russian politicians and Orthodox clergt want Lenin to be buried and you don't know about it?
    What is your expertise in Russian language? I'm able to read Russian Misplaced Pages, are you?Xx236 (talk) 13:22, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    "Both Vladimir Lenin and Joseph Stalin were biased, of poor quality" - this may be true of the Stalin article but the Lenin article has been recently rated FA after having been read by a wide range of editors at FAC, Peer Review, and GAN. It makes use of a wide range of academic and specialist sources, the information from which is relayed and appropriately cited in a neutral manner. The only reason that you claim it is "biased" and of "poor quality" is because it does not un-critically depict Lenin as an unrelenting monster, which is how you view him. No one has "ignored your critics "; rather, barely anyone agrees with them because longstanding and experienced editors recognise that you are engaged in polemical WP:Advocacy. Your edits to the Lenin article have been removed (by editors other than me) because you were just adding un-referenced and poorly referenced trivia about Polish anti-communist movements that existed long after Lenin himself had died. No one is saying that only Polish people are critics of Lenin, but it is clear from your comments and edits that your attitude toward Lenin and the Soviet Union stems primarily from your anger at the way the Soviet Union acted towards Poland (and your Polish family) in the 20th century. I appreciate that you struggle with the English language and that that makes things difficult for you (and difficult for others to understand many of your comments) but you really must read WP:SOAP and WP:Advocacy and learn to appreciate why so many editors are frustrated with your edits on Soviet and Russian-themed topics. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:44, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    stop This discussion isn't about POV pushing, advocacy, the quality of articles, or general incivility. It's about whether a comment in which an editor dismisses another editor's comment because the second editor is "Polish" is the type of personal attack that merits immediate removal. SpikeballUnion has acceded that it does, so unless someone has something to say on that specific topic, we are done here. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:11, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    I have not acceded that it does. If you look to which comment I replied to, it was my own, confirming to myself that this was a place I could add my own input. From the start I've thought this was a whole load of kerfuffle about nothing, and I support everyone who has been against this issue being raised. I've already made my clarification and apologised. SpikeballUnion (talk) 22:20, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    User:Hesselp

    There is a situation with Hesselp (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) on the page Series (mathematics) and the talk page Talk:Series (mathematics). He has been edit-warring to include his rewrite of the article , , , , , . Although not at the moment above 3RR, the above is clear indication of edit warring, being reverted by four different editors. He was warned against edit warring, yet persists. Other editors have attempted to engage him at Talk:Series (mathematics), but attempts to resolve the dispute amicably are met with walls of antagonistic rambling text: , , , , , among others. We have given up on trying to interact with this user, in the spirit of WP:DENY (the above posts strongly suggest trolling). But I believe the time has come for this disruption to be put to an end administratively. (Pinging other involved editors: @Hesselp:, @D.Lazard:, @MrOllie:, @Wcherowi:.) Sławomir Biały (talk) 11:58, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

    It looks like there was some edit warring involving this user going on at the Dutch version of the article. @The Banner:, could you tell us if those issues were similar to what we're seeing here? - MrOllie (talk) 13:32, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    I had no involvement in this article and I want to keep it that way. But on the Dutch version is was a long story of editwars, WP:TLDR, dismissing arguments brought in by others, endless edit-suggestions. The Banner talk 17:22, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Indeed, the edit history shows a long history of contentious additions, and reverts by other editors there. The talk page is dominated by endless discussions. Without knowing Dutch, I would suggest that this appears to be a similar pattern. Sławomir Biały (talk) 17:28, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    • This is edit war on the article pages (English and Dutch) and disruptive edits on the talk pages (in both languages). Apparently this user knows the 3RR rule: Generally he waits more than 24 hours before a new revert, and he stops (for a while) edit warring after 3 reverts. As, usually, WP:AN3 actions consists in short blocks (for a few days), this would be not efficient here, as his disrupting edits could restart immediately after the end of the block. D.Lazard (talk) 14:37, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Today he has done 3 reverts. D.Lazard (talk) 15:03, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    • I certainly feel like I'm involved with an edit war that I see no way of stopping. This editor is tenacious and smart enough to play the system. He is so committed to his POV that he won't even consider the possibility that he may be taking an extreme position that others would reject.--Bill Cherowitzo (talk) 15:16, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Playing the system is a blockable offense. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 16:27, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Reaction by Hesselp.   I haven't done anything else than concentrate on the best way - at the level of mainstream Misplaced Pages readers - to describe the meanings (plural) of the technical/mathematical term "series" in mathematical texts. A main point is that the meaning of "convergent series" can be explained easily by interpreting this words as "summable sequence". This is not at all new, see the number of google-hits on "summable sequence" and "summable sequences". The same point is shown in Calculus by M. Spivak (editions 1968-2008).   To which extend it is reasonable to characterize my posts on Talk page as "rambling antagonistic text", I leave to decide by other judges.
    @Slawomir Bialy: my edit is not a "rewrite of the article", it can be seen as a rewrite of 1/6 of the article.
    @MrOllie: Yes, I tried about the same on Dutch Misplaced Pages, with partial success.
    @Wcherowi: - (on your newest 'edit summary') Using  'no consensus'  without ANY discussion on the merits of the content of a text/edit, is misusing this word.  - 40 000 hits on 'summable sequence(s)' does NOT point to an "extreme position".   - Tell me at least, which aspect(s) in the edit you see as 'extreme', it's certainly by far not the complete text.
    @L3X1.   I don't understand what you mean, please explain. -- Hesselp — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hesselp (talk • contribs) 16:39, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Per WP:GAME: Editors typically game the system to make a point, to further an edit war, or to enforce a specific non-neutral point of view.. Continously reverting and warring with other editors, even if done over a long period of time, still counts as edit warring. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 17:07, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    The merits of the were discussed or otherwise incorporated into the article. Here are some diffs (among others): , , . Sławomir Biały (talk) 17:41, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    The disruption continues: he pasted this ANI thread into the talk page of the article, in apparent violation of the talk page guidelines, this addition was reverted by one editor, then Hesselp restored it; it was removed by a different editor who pointed out that talk pages are for discussing article improvements rather than soapboxing, it was restored again by Hesselp. Does it matter whether this is good faith editing or simple trolling/vandalism? The editor in question clearly continues to be disruptive. Sławomir Biały (talk) 13:19, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    I note that, regretfully, Hesselp is a WP:SPA. Boris Tsirelson (talk) 15:20, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    SPA-for-bad or SPA-for-good? I don't understand your comment, as per SPA, thats not even a teeeeerrible thing to be. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 22:49, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    Well, we are at ANI about this user's aggressive behavior, are we not? (With disruptive crossover activity on the nl.wikipedia.) SPA is certainly not a good thing in that context. Sławomir Biały (talk) 23:24, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    User:Djln categories' creation and his use of HotCat

    User:Djln is systematically destroying thousands of correct subcategories for ALL basketball articles and categories on Misplaced Pages. This issue is URGENT and he is abusing the use of HotCat like nobody I've seen before. For example, he completely disregarded this category's description and intent just so he could put "{{tl|{{Category redirect}}" in it. Also other examples of his widespread abuse include this, this, this, this...and the list goes on. He literally single-handedly ruined all of college basketball's categorization schemes, which took hundreds of hours to craft. He is unilaterally abusing HotCat, took NO time to determine WHY certain schemes are in place, and to be honest he is making me consider leaving Misplaced Pages altogether. I focus primarily on US college basketball topics, and have spent thousands (10,000+ probably) hours since 2007 crafting this art of the website, only to be disheartened by a HotCat tyrant undo so much of my work with dozens of erroneous edits per minute - nothing I can possibly imagine having to revert myself.

    I request IMMEDIATE revoking of his use of HotCat, rollback, and any other privileges until he can demonstrate consensus-building and an understanding that what he's doing is NOT OK. I also further request all of his edits to be completely undone, which will need a bot to do because of how widespread this is. Help!!!!! Jrcla2 (talk) 15:47, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

    Note 1 – look at this user's talk page. He's been told for YEARS about improper categorizing, merging, unilateral moves etc. This user needs an immediate block while all of this mess is being sorted out! Jrcla2 (talk) 15:54, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Seems to have been one block and lots of discussions over their category edits back in 2010. I haven't checked if there have been any other category related issues from 2010 until now. —Bagumba (talk) 16:38, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Note 2 – Djln is from Ireland (as evidence by his user page) and so he likely has no idea about the way American college sports are regarded, nor how they're categorized. He seems obsessed with nationality-related categorization to replace anything topic-specific, which is the wrong way to go about Misplaced Pages. Jrcla2 (talk) 17:02, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Black Kite, JJBers: in the other examples he's overwriting specific categorization by conference by to a more general categorization. This is bad. Djln needs to immediately stop this sort of editing and discuss. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:04, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    This is actually a much better example. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:08, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    So some might be OK, and some might not be? Incidentally, Jrcla2 needs to stop reverting every single one of his edits as well. That isn't helping, especially if the edits are of mixed usefulness. Both should stop and discuss. Black Kite (talk) 16:06, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    The evidence doesn't do much, I looked and saw nothing other than some edits to pages and a few category redirects changes. I personally still agree with Black Kite's comment above. —JJBers 16:08, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Someone needs to provide diffs of the 'bad' edits and explain why, so those of us not involved in college basketball can review and take action if necessary. GiantSnowman 16:09, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    @JJBers: @GiantSnowman:: please see this example. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:10, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    I don't think you should need to know anything about college basketball to understand why this is bad. That edit is blowing away a well-established pattern of categorization reflected on thousands of other articles. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:13, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Look at the edit history of that category! Djln MOVED the category from "Category:1903–04 collegiate men's basketball season in the United States" to "Category:1903–04 in American college basketball", which he then decided screw it let me create "Category:1903–04 in American college basketball by team". THAT is what's bad - he took a perfectly legitimate category, moved it to something wrong, then moved the article to the doubly-wrong category. Look at the paper trail for god's sake. Jrcla2 (talk) 16:11, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Looking at the edits provided above, I see no harm, if not, helping the categories, they looked over specific before, then he generalized them, slightly. —JJBers 16:14, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Are you. fucking. kidding. me. Jrcla2 (talk) 16:15, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

    So basically, Djln has (without discussion or explanation) decided to change how an entire topic (college basketball) is categorised, contrary to long established conventions? GiantSnowman 16:16, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

    Yes, thank you GiantSnowman. Spot on. Literally 10,000+ categories are likely affected. Jrcla2 (talk) 16:17, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Yes, GiantSnowman, that is a good summary of the situation. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:18, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    OK. Well, they've stopped editing for now so everyone can take a breather. Let's see what Djln says when they return. GiantSnowman 16:19, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Right, thanks. I'll drop a note onto his talkpage, though looking back he doesn't seem to use it that much. Black Kite (talk) 16:21, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    That seems good. —JJBers 16:22, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Jweiss11, Jrcla2: what is a good location to discuss this? Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject College Basketball? Black Kite (talk) 16:24, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    I would say so, yes. As this definitely would affect WikiProject College Football and WikiProject College Baseball (all 3 of these WPs work in consensus for consistency among formatting, categorizing, etc.) those editors should participate on the WP College Basketball page as well. Jrcla2 (talk) 16:59, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    OK - added this to the note on Djln's talkpage. Black Kite (talk) 17:28, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    • I find the attitude of Jrcla2 very alarming and completely over the top. The claims he has made in his rant are completely unfounded as other others editors have pointed out here. In fact the comment Djln is from Ireland ... and so he likely has no idea about the way American college sports are regarded is borderline racist. His unilataral reverting of my edits is also not helpful. All I have tried to do is tidy up American college basketball categories. They are extremely over categorised and are just a mess. This makes it virtually impossible for editors or readers to find articles. For example at the category "Athletic League of New England State Colleges men's basketball seasons" there are 20 subcategories each containing just one article which is frankly ridiculous. There are dozens if not hundreds of other similar examples. I have tidied up similar categories across various sports and I can't really see what the issue is here. All I planned to do was merge these categories into more easy to navigate categories based on "XXXX-XX in American college basketball" and/or "XXXX-XX in American college basketball" by team" format. Djln Djln (talk) 20:54, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    borderline racist. I don't know you nor Jrcla2, but I doubt that is racist. I (e.g.) don't know how the Euro-sport system works, and while it is learnable, I don't find the basic assumption of Jrcla (while possibly unhelpful) totally unreasonable. His unilataral reverting of my edits is also not helpful. True, addressed above. Consensus should be reached before a major reorganisation though. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 21:11, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    @L3X1: Sorry but I find the comment to be racially offensive. If mentioning where somebody comes from and citing it is as reason for them not contributing to Wiki is not borderline racist then what is. Djln Djln (talk) 21:39, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Oh for fuck sake, will you get a clue? You apparently don't know what you're doing, regardless of why. EEng 10:37, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    @EEng: Thanks for your contributuion, totally inappropriate and unhelpful. Djln Djln (talk) 12:29, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    You're welcome. Jrcla2 was offering a way to see what you're doing as the result of a cultural difference rather than you just being a disruptive prick, and you choose to turn it into "racism". EEng 12:55, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    @EEng: "cultural difference" is a term used by racists to try and claim they are not racist. Dial it down with the language, totally inappropriate and uncalled for. Your contibutions are not helpful. What is your point. Djln Djln (talk) 13:36, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    I've blocked EEng for the above. It's possible to disagree, and even to disagree vehemently, without calling someone a "disruptive prick". Using such language actually causes more disruption. It would be better not to comment at all than to comment in such a manner. --John (talk) 13:46, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    And I've also blocked Djln for disruptively continuing to edit basketball categories following Black Kite's warning. --John (talk) 15:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

    Well, I'm glad this entire thing became a block party that has nothing to do with the original issue, which is Djln unilaterally restructuring the entire schema of WikiProject College Basketball without the slightest hint of consensus or regard for tens of thousands of man hours on that WikiProject. Good job everyone, glad I brought this up. Jrcla2 (talk) 20:02, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

    The thing that those of you who posted "I see nothing wrong" with the new categories is that the term "America" can refer to several things. "North" - "South" (both of which have numerous countries that play basketball) - "United States of" - etc. The categories are precise when United States is used. They are not when "America" is. Jrcla2's original point needs to be addressed before to prevent the disruption from continuing after the block ends. MarnetteD|Talk 20:18, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    User:Jrcla2 yep this happens sometimes at ANI. So Djln has received a 24 hour block, based specifically on the behavior you brought here. If the block doesn't wake them up to the fact that they need to get consensus before pursuing massive cat reorganization and they go right back to it, you will have no problem getting an emergency block again, and very likely get a TBAN enacted. We do things stepwise. Jytdog (talk) 20:28, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

    Block review 1 Djln

    Please review this block by User:John in response to the thread above. Jytdog (talk) 17:15, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

    Block review 2: EEng

    (non-admin closure) Unblocked after discussion here and here. Jytdog (talk) 20:16, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Please review this block of EEng by User:John in response to this comment by EEng. Please also see the ongoing discussion at EEng#May2017. Jytdog (talk) 17:15, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

    • Endorse block, noting that I had warned the user about personal attacks earlier this week after they repeatedly posted insulting comments about another editor with whom I was trying to discuss their own block. It seems to me EEng has been on this path for a while now. Ivanvector (/Edits) 17:25, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Bit more difficult. Generally I find EEng to be somewhat annoying, but while he certainly is wanting people to read between the lines, this one isn't as clear-cut to me. I don't follow EEng so I can't say if he's been pushing the boundaries lately. Might have been better to ask him to refactor/strike the comment before blocking. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:35, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Resolved by Bishonen, and we can move on. 18:25, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Comment. The comment of EEng in question was inflammatorily worded, but was actually (if carefully read) about finding a way *not* to interpret the target of the comment as misbehaving. That is, it was a show of good faith rather than an attack. Regardless, it has been resolved by Bishonen's unblock, I hope. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:34, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Comment I will say that although undoubtedly the correct interpretation, if EEng doesn't mind me saying, it was phrased in such a way as to make such a misinterpretaion not just possible but even likely. It was a complexly-structured statement which could be easily mis-parsed. I think my personal suggestion would be that, in future, if an editor is going to mention potentially offensive epithets, it would be better to do so in a manner in which it was clear that it was based on hypotheticals rather than accusations. of course someone will now point out that that this is probably one of the most turgid paragraphs on this page. Meh. Parse that! :) — O Fortuna 18:42, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    I think I was perfectly clear, and admins are supposed to AGF and check their parsing before blocking. Reducing everything to the explicit and obvious helps editors' critical faculties grow flabby. EEng 18:48, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    That would kind of make this the Krypton Factor. Better to take it easy :) — O Fortuna 18:52, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Like I'm supposed to get that reference, as if I was one of you Brit poofs. EEng 18:58, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Block review 3 and revocation of talk page access: Roxy the dog

    Please review this block of Roxy the dog by User:Ivanvector in response to this insult by Roxy the Dog. In response to the block Roxy the dog wrote this and this, which led Ivanvector to revoke talk page access. Jytdog (talk) 17:15, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

    Thanks Jytdog. I think I was pretty clear in my rationale for the block, and you can also review this unblock request for why I disabled talk access. I haven't read any of this thread, I had EEng's talk page on my watchlist for having warned them about a separate personal attack a few days ago. Ivanvector (/Edits) 17:23, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Ivanvector, I have the utmost respect for your work on WP, and see no reason to think otherwise. I would very much appreciate your consideration of this diff and hope you will reconsider this block. 18:31, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Ivanvector, as I said on Roxy's talk page , I think this was a very poorly thought-out block sequence. It gives a chilling impression that admins are royalty immune from criticism, undermining the legitimacy of the authority you've been granted. I think it's important for admins to model the behavior they seek, including showing a thicker skin and greater interest in resolving and deescalating situations than you showed here. Roxy is an established editor and should first have been offered a chance to revert or edit his remark to conform to the guidelines. I was especially troubled by your revoking TPA because Roxy questioned your actions. It smacks of retaliation. Msnicki (talk) 18:42, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Except Roxy didn't question his judgement...all she did was call two admins pricks....and you're troubled?
     — Berean Hunter (talk) 19:01, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Roxy's comment was an unambiguous personal attack but a harmless one. Ivanvector needs to grow a thicker skin. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:38, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    The original attack wasn't directed at him so that is a misread.
     — Berean Hunter (talk) 18:46, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Ok, you're right, it was an unambiguous personal attack to John, not to Ivan (they're really the same name at root, right?) My apologies to Ivan for the mixup. Nevertheless I think that as a mild and deliberate provocation the better response would have been for everyone to just roll their eyes and move on rather than granting this bit of trolling the gratification of being noticed. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:51, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Thickness of skin is an asset even when one is a bystander to the main action. Msnicki's points are very well taken. Ivanvector, that new-sheriff-in-town feeling will wear off by and by. EEng 19:01, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

    RIGHT. No-one ... is to block ANYONE ... until I blow this whistle! Even if - and let me make this absolutely clear - even if they do say "prick". Black Kite (talk) 18:41, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

    Black Kite is complete pr- pomegranite!!! — O Fortuna 18:44, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Black Kite Can I say Biggus Dickus? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:46, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    I'd agree that the block was, pace Roxy, pretty clearly coming. I groaned when I saw the comment. It has none of the - can I call them, orthographical- protections that Bishonen raised on the original block. And, although I agree with Msnicki, that Admins shouldn't be immune fro criticism, they should also have the same protections as any other editor re. personal attacks, in this case. However- I also agree with that the subsequent revoking of TPA was troubling- Roxy's second remark should have been left to an WP:UNINVOLVED admin to gauge the extent of the attack. That, at least, should probably be reversed. — O Fortuna 18:59, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    I disagree. Editors may not use their talk page while blocked to continue the behaviour which led to the block, and Roxy's two subsequent talk page posts contained nothing other than more deliberate and directed insults. Ivanvector (/Edits) 19:07, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Ivanvector, I'm not saying you're wrong. As you make clear, the letter of the law supports your action- the spirit of it however suggests it is commeon sense to allow someone else to decide. — O Fortuna 08:38, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    I don't think even the first block was warranted. As Awilley alludes on Roxy's talk page , even that first block completely fails point 4 in WP:Civility#Blocking for incivility, which asks that "Users should be clearly warned, in most circumstances, before being blocked for incivility, and should be allowed sufficient time to retract, refactor or explain uncivil comments." Msnicki (talk) 19:18, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Completely agree, and Ivanv, you really do need to reread UNINVOLVED. The standard of "any reasonable administrator would have probably come to the same conclusion" is very high, and as seen here it's not met. As usual, if other admins agree one will step in, and there's no hurry. EEng 19:19, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    • I'm very sorry to see that Roxy has got caught up in this; personally I'm happy to let people conclude for themselves whether my various blocks say more about me or more about the admins involved, but others get more emotional about it. Given that the block I received was overturned as wrongheaded, Roxy should be cut some slack. Ivanvector, you need to read the context of people's posts, even one like the one you blocked Roxy for, before acting. EEng 18:55, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Since Roxy really shouldn't have been blocked I'll go ahead and say this. He was pissed off that an admin with a long history with me, and who has a good-friend fellow editor who feels free to call people cunts, blocked me for calling someone a prick – except of course that I didn't do that, or anything like that. The block was muddleheaded in its most charitable interpretation, and Roxy's reaction was understandable if emotional. And the talk-page revocation is completely over the top. EEng 19:11, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Sorry, I don't buy any of this "it's okay, they have history" stuff. "History" doesn't get you a free pass to deliver insulting remarks to anybody on this website. We all read what you write; if you don't want it to be interpreted as an insult, don't call people "pricks" or "cunts" or whatever, even in jest ("I was just kidding" doesn't get you a free pass either, nor claiming your insults are "friendly banter"). From what I saw Roxy came across an editor blocked for calling someone a "prick", and in response repeated the insult to troll the blocking administrator apparently with no context or provocation at all. I considered whether or not warning someone not to do something that most anyone should know not to do was a waste of anyone's time and decided it was, and so Roxy was blocked. While responding to being blocked for that, Roxy continued trolling by repeating the insult a second time embedded in the {{unblock}} template, which is an abuse of that process. I then removed the unblock request; I considered leaving it for an uninvolved administrator to review but this also would have been a waste of time as it did not contain a block appeal, only a repeat of the insult. Frankly, had I known you all have "history", by which I interpret this insult was a continuation of a long pattern of abusive behaviour, this would have been a much longer block. I can appreciate that some people have different views of the uses of different words and whether they're insulting or not ("cunt" in particular being a fine example) but it was clear from Roxy's comment that it was intended to be an insult, and both comments they made after being blocked were also insults. I will not be undoing this block. Ivanvector (/Edits) 19:54, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Then someone else should. And perhaps you should reconsider why you wish to be an admin. Notably absent in your remarks is any explanation of why you failed to follow the guidelines at WP:Civility#Blocking for incivility, nor any evidence you appreciate that you cannot use the tools when you are involved, nor any indication you understand the importance of deescalation or the need to admit a mistake when you're wrong. A number of editors at your RfA claimed to have seen this coming; please don't prove them right. Msnicki (talk) 20:07, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Ivanvector, if you can't see even now that I did not call (even slyly) anyone a prick, then there's something seriously wrong. You really, really need to think about that Msnicki is saying, for your own good. EEng 20:54, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Roxy's block has little to do with whether or not you called anyone anything. You were blocked for a specific insult, and whether or not you had actually wrote it, Roxy repeated that specific insult below your block notice. Your being blocked for a specific word ought to have been warning enough that uttering that specific word was grounds for blocking, yet Roxy repeated it anyway, and in a manner clearly meant to insult. Thus, blocked. Ivanvector (/Edits) 21:56, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    • For some context, Roxy and John have a negative history (see interaction analyzer, that I believe arose from Roxy's disagreement with John's placing of specific DS on the Ayurveda article (diff) in the midst of a very ugly period of conflict at that article back in March 2015, and then John's blocking of Alexbrn based on those DS, which John subsequently lifted. Discussions of that block are here at Alexbrn's talk page, and got ugly and personal. It is unsurprising to me that Roxy objected to John's blocking of EEng. I am not excusing Roxy's behavior. It was bad, twice - it is possible to object without the name-calling. Just wanted to provide the context as to where Roxy's initial comment came from, since it was asked. fwiw I have emailed Roxy and asked them to apologize. I am not commenting on the block. Jytdog (talk) 20:12, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Move to close by lifting the blocks on Roxy and instructing Ivanvector to pay closer attention to the guidelines. Ivanvector has failed to show cause for failing to follow the guidelines notice requirement before in imposing the initial block and then misused the tools to revoke TPA when they felt insulted. Msnicki (talk) 21:46, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    This is a gross mischaracterization. This is not a block for general incivility, it is a block for a specific, directed personal attack against a specific editor. Talk page access was revoked when the blocked editor abused the {{unblock}} template to repeat the specific, directed personal attack. I was not the target of the personal attack and am not WP:INVOLVED. Ivanvector (/Edits) 21:51, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    No. Your argument is completely wrong. False accusations of tool misuse can become grounds for a boomerang, too. You go file at ArbCom if you think that your argument has merit...that's where you go if you want to gather the torches and pitchforks and witchhunt for a desysop.
     — Berean Hunter (talk) 22:09, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Drmies grading the old-fashioned way
    • Sorry I missed all the excitement, what with the Kentucky Derby and grading and all. I found myself clicking on EEng's talk page, accidentally, after I saw a note on grindr's messaging system about the block. The block itself is what it is, or what it was--I have no intention of getting in between John and Bishonen, both of whom I respect, but I will say that I see the reason on both sides: the remark was at least somewhat questionable. (Sorry EEng, you know I love you like...well, that's hard to say, but like something.)

      Anyway, that's not why I'm here. I was about to leave a note on EEng's talk page about the fallout of the block; specifically, I was going to ask Roxy and WaltCip, and all the onlookers, if they could please refrain from making those kinds of comments about the blocking admin. That's not disagreeing with a block--it's a kneejerk personal attack. The Rambling Man, you made a similar comment about Bishonen on John's talk page. There is no need for any of that nor, dear TRM, is there any reason for your continued vendetta against Floq. You don't like him, you don't agree with him--fine. It's not for here, anywhere here. WaltCip, Roxy, y'all's snarky comments only raise the temperature to the point where it may be wise to fully protect blocked editors' talk pages to prevent such stuff. That Roxy continues to call someone a prick, that's one thing--but they are the blocked editor, and we have given them room to vent, typically, at least some room. You all do not have that excuse and at the risk of sounding like an old prick, I just don't get it: so here we are again, with another shit storm over a block that was, in the end, resolved, even if not to everyone's satisfaction (but that's normal)--a shit storm leading to another block and an ANI thread and whatnot. Surely most of this was not necessary. Drmies (talk) 22:38, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

      No, just to put the record straight, I did like Floq, and still do, yet he was enabled by numerous admins, including Bishonen, to call me a prick and to tell me to "fuck off", and call me an "asshole". That was an admin talking to an editor. Bishonen has recently made strongly damaging punitive blocks for no benefit to Wikpiedia. As for the comparison on blocking/unblocking punitive blocks, well that's a matter for discussion in the future when we have a clearer picture of what damage an off-hand block can do. Time will tell. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:43, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Well, "fuck off" isn't usually blockable, we know that. As for the allegations of "strongly damaging punitive blocks", you are welcome to bring that up, and present a case, in the appropriate forum. Outside of that forum they are nothing more but irrelevant allegations and aspersions, and they do, as far as I'm concerned, insult and/or belittle. In other words, I urge you to refrain, and I won't put it more strongly than that. Same with "punitive" blocks, BTW--that is exactly the kind of commentary that causes heat, not light. Drmies (talk) 01:23, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    FTR, I didn't see nuffin hear nuffin know nuffin. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 01:55, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    • I'm also going to come down on the side of recommending a lifting of the block. It seems to me that both the block and the revocation of talk page access amount to a "cool-down" block. That said, I'll note that somewhere above I saw someone describe the overall situation quite accurately as a "block party", and it would in fact be a good idea for everyone to cool down. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:10, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Perhaps this is self-serving, but doesn't it seem like the correct response to "personal attacks" is an admin or uninvolved calm and wise person (not someone clueless) redacting the personal attack, and leaving a note on the user's talk page "Hey, please dial it back, you've gone too far". Then, if it continues, redacting the second attack and leaving a note on the user's talk page "Um, I'm sorry you're pissed off, but if it happens again I'll have to block you". Then, if it continues, a block. We treat vandals like that, not sure why we can't treat pissed off people like that.
    If I could be sure it wouldn't outrage @Ivanvector:, I'd unblock Roxy now to try to staunch the bleeding, but I don't know Ivanvector well enough to know whether that would piss him off enough that it would just make things spiral further out of control. But I think it would be best for someone - Ivan or someone else - to unblock Roxy with a note that Marine le Pen lost, so the world isn't quite so hopeless as it could be, and please don't do that anymore. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:18, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Papa Floq, I made a proposal of sorts on the Roxy Dog talk page. And Le Pen may have lost, but she still finished second, so *()*(%&&^&_*)_))()_)()_)(*&^%$##$, if that's OK with you. Drmies (talk) 01:17, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    • It doesn't appear to me that any clear consensus to over ride Ivanvector's block is going to happen, nor is there any clear consensus endorsement, so the negotiations among admins at Roxy's talk page appears to me the only viable solution. So I closed this. I was just asked to unclose, and so I have. No drama. Jytdog (talk) 03:43, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Roxy has woken up and seen the train wreck on their TP. They said that they haven't read everything but wanted to say that they will not be appealing the block. Jytdog (talk) 14:42, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    And now... the punchline

    Meh... As long as nobody mentions the war, it's alright. Kleuske (talk) 15:11, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    • EEng posts a comment at ANI EEng 20:20, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
      • A lot of the dra-mah has now passed, so I'm going to offer a bit of unsolicited but friendly advice. EEng, that video of you posting the comment does a nice (and fun) job of pointing out how your original comment set off a cascade of other... stuff. I think editors should be free to offer uninvolved comments about disputes raised at ANI. But I've noticed that many of your comments come across as sort of like all the rest of you are missing the obvious, and I'm drawing attention to how silly that looks. It comes across as smug, and predisposes others to react as they did here. Please give that some thought. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:20, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    Could I borrow a few eyeballs?

    Nazism in the United States. Steady coatracking, POV editing - it's a near complete POV fork from other articles on the subject. Currently there is an IP editor from Brazil, with only marginal English skills, trying to claim that German neo-nasty use of the "stars and bars" somehow proves the US is a hotbed of neo-nastery...or something. It's rather hard to tell, sometimes, what, exactly the various anonoIPs are trying to say; it's obvious that some of the writers don't even have good Portuguese writing skills, and attempt to communicate by machine-translating their Paulista equivalent of Joual. For an example:

    squadrons of aircraft on loan from Adolf Hitler infamously inebriated a city of Guernica into carcass and intended whole blocks of Madrid and Barcelona

    was seen, apparently, as perfectly good English by one of the IP socks. This is a more dramatic example, perhaps, but not by so much as you'd like.

    Sourcing has included rather obviously self-created sites, various Russian propaganda outlets, Charles Higham, and...Fox News. When the last is a high point of your sourcing, that's a very bad sign. Anmccaff (talk) 19:18, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

    I took the liberty of making the coatrack policy link work. Do you know of any good versions that the article can be restored too? d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 19:33, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Many thanks. I was in the middle of doing that myself, and got an edit conflict.
    I don't there has ever been a good version of this article, or ever can be. Its whole purpose is coatracking. Anmccaff (talk) 19:38, 6 May 2017 (UTC)


    Thanks. Could you, or anyone, of course, take a look at what version would be best to restore to? I'm sick of looking at the damn thing, and have skated too close to AN3. Anmccaff (talk) 19:41, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    • I agree on coattracking. The third sentence has sent off alarm balls, and from there on it just gets worse, with more and more NPOV. It definetly is a coatrack, because Nazism in the US is a real thing and should make for an interesting historical article. If I may be bold and willing to go out on a limb, would nominate it for G11-attack page. First 500 edits only go back to January 5th of this year. Since ins creation 9-24-16, it has been edited way too much by IPs. I see there was an AfD: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/US support for the Nazism with plenty of delete votes. I have to jog, but will continue looking for a good version to revert to; in it's present state an AfD would consign it to the rubbish heap in a jiffy. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 23:17, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    Nope, article is DOA. What encyclopedia starts a paragraph with "at least"? I recommend an AfD, my experience tells me CSD G11 will not be accepted. I currently have it under PROD (support !votes on the talk page are always welcome), but if someone feels AfD is better, they may nominate. I also feel there should be some Arbcomm applying to it.d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 23:29, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
    At least a dozen articles that I know of start a paragraph with "at least". EEng 02:03, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    PROD declined, so AfD? d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 02:35, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    It is very interesting. Bad English is obviously - unredoughtbly - a very good reason to delete, instead of correcting, any and all articles. Congrats! Dr. Loo 02:43, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Congrats???!? d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 02:46, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    One who doesn't speak English all that well should not be making arguments about the unredoughtbly of the English in that article... --Tarage (talk) 04:35, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    I assume he means undoubtedly. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 12:20, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Oh I am well aware of what he was trying to say. I'm just saying that his argument is weaker because he clearly does not have a 'professional' grasp of the English language like he claims. --Tarage (talk) 22:23, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Nominated for deletion. —JJBers 02:55, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Believe it or not, Tarage, unredoughtbly really is a word. Uncollapse to learn more.
    Extended content

    Ha! Ha! Just kidding!

    EEng 10:34, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

    So the Soviets dropped "bread" on the Finns and Poles, and they in return dropped "cocktails" upon Soviet tanks breadwagons. Now Hitler is dropping booze down upon cities. What next? Hussein giving "milk" to the Kurds? d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 13:03, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    What would be the point of that? Kurds are made from milk. EEng 13:12, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    I see you're still showing them the whey... Blackmane (talk) 13:25, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    These cheesy jokes are really curdling my toes... ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:30, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    Also some oddness relating to it that needs admin attention was made by an edd involved in the AFD of the page we are discussing here.Slatersteven (talk) 15:23, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

    Link doesn't work for me. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 16:04, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    This one work? I think there's a transposition error in the one above. Should we be notifying the perpetrator at this point, BTW? Anmccaff (talk) 16:18, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    I left an ANI notice on his talk page.Slatersteven (talk) 16:35, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

    RHB100 and GPS article (again)

    Some admin attention needed, particularly here. See also the discussions recently mentioned on that page. Burninthruthesky (talk) 06:02, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

    What are you talking about Burninthruthesky? Don't you understand we need vigorous criticism of the GPS article to make it better. Don't you understand that it is important to point out misleading and confusing statements in the GPS article. If you disagree with what I have said then state your disagreement and we can discuss it. Don't try to supress criticism. RHB100 (talk) 00:51, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    Other editors, far more experienced than myself, have already spent valuable time explaining to you what the problem is. Burninthruthesky (talk) 07:44, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    Burninthruthesky, you seem to be intimating that the time of other editors is more valuable than mine. I resent this insult. I am not going to allow this page to be used for personal insults of me. I am a licensed professional engineer, a multi millionaire, and a philanthropist. My time is as valuable if not more so than that of any other editor. RHB100 (talk) 18:19, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    I don't know anything about a topic ban. I don't know what it is and nobody has ever told me anything about being under a topic ban. RHB100 (talk) 17:36, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    But it is extremely disgusting that when I as a licensed Professional Engineer make valid criticisms of misleading and confusing statements, we have noting but protectionism for the writer of the misleading and confusing statements. I am a licensed professional engineer, a multi millionaire, and a philanthropist and I strongly resent you protectionists attacking me for making valid criticisms. RHB100 (talk) 17:36, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    The community doesn't care for the fact that your a professional engineer if you criticisms aren't backed by reliable sources. —JJBers 17:50, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    Anyways, I told you that you were topic blocked yesterday: diff. —JJBers 17:52, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    Speak for yourself, JJbers, most intelligent people have high respect for the status of being a licensed professional engineer. Your statement is an outright lie. what you said was, "Aren't you topic banned". You didn't tell me anything. RHB100 (talk) 18:19, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    Someone else told you even earlier. Anyways, if this continues, you'll most likely be blocked on this site. —JJBers 18:23, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    Now here is what I have said. And no one has ever denied my assertion that a solution is found when we have found the intersection of the surfaces of four or more spheres. No one has ever denied my assertion that a necessary and sufficient condition for a solution is that we have found the intersection of the surfaces of four or more spheres.

    The closing of discussion below by fgnievinski was somewhat premature. There are still important issues to be discussed. fgnievinski says this has been discussed before. This does not mean all problems have been solved. We still have misleading and confusing writing in the current section 6.1 called Spheres. No one should be allowed to protect misleading and confusing writing from criticism. Let's make sure fgnievinski does not get away with it.

    Again quoting from the current section 6.1 called Spheres, "In a simplified idealization in which the ranges are synchronized, these true ranges represent the radii of spheres, each centered on one of the transmitting satellites. The solution for the position of the receiver is then at the intersection of the surfaces of three of these spheres".

    This is misleading and confusing, these synchronized ranges never occur unless we have the intersection of the surfaces of four or more spheres. Therefore speaking of a solution occurring at the intersection of the surfaces of three spheres is misleading and confusing. A correct statement is to say a solution is found when we have found the intersection of the surfaces of four or more spheres. For further clarity it could also be stated that a necessary and sufficient condition for a solution is that we have found the intersection of the surfaces of four or more spheres. RHB100 (talk) 02:19, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

    This brings up the question why would anyone want to write anything so confusing and misleading as the above quote from section 6.1? While you might say it results from good intentions but failure to understand how GPS works, it is now becoming undeniable that something else is at work. Although I hate to say it, it is now becoming so obvious that it cannot be overlooked that some editors are almost certainly deliberately attempting to confuse and mislead readers. It is all but certain that some editors feel that their livelihood is threatened by providing a clear and unambiguous explanation of GPS on Misplaced Pages. Thus we have fgnievinski madly rushing to close any discusion of any criticism of this all but obvious attempt to confuse the understanding of how GPS works. RHB100 (talk) 18:41, 6 May 2017 (UTC) RHB100 (talk) 17:49, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    • Indefinite block RHB's only activity here has been to play the crackpot regarding GPS. With the recent (?) progression to the conspiracy theory that WP editors are intentionally degrading the article to improve their private consulting fees (or whatever) we've arrived at the end of the line. There's no point in a finite block, because there's zero indication this person can ever contribute meaningfully. EEng 22:42, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    The one important thing to keep in mind is that nobody has been able to refute any of my criticisms. Rather than discuss the issues in the manner of a professional engineer, all these people want to do is suppress criticism. It is important to criticize in order to show that certain posts are misleading and confusing. I post my criticisms on this page but nobody discusses the technical issues. All they do is engage in personal attacks. These people are unprofessional and should be ignored. We should stop the personal attacks and engage in a discussion of the technical issues. RHB100 (talk) 00:17, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    • Indef block If this user is clearly blanking comments, and just simply ignoring any editor's comments. I can't see why their disruptive behavior can be allowed here much longer. —JJBers 00:49, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    These comments that were blocked were false and libelous personal attacks. They were in violation of Wikapedia rules prohibiting personal attacks. RHB100 (talk) 00:59, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    The people who post these personal attacks above are motivated by hatred not by making the GPS article better. I am a licensed professional engineer. I hold advanced engineering degrees from both the University of Arkansas and UCLA. I am a multi millionaire. I am a philanthropist. All these things incite the hatred of these people who make these personal attacks. Some people calling themselves EEng have accused me of not contributing to GPS but I am the one who contributed Computation of geometric dilution of precision and Derivation of equations for computing geometric dilution of precision in the GPS error analysis and many other sections. This shows that they didn't bother to check my contributions. These people should be ignored, they are just motivated by hatred. RHB100 (talk) 00:51, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    • I post my criticisms on this page but nobody discusses the technical issues. All they do is engage in personal attacks. These people are unprofessional and should be ignored. We should stop the personal attacks and engage in a discussion of the technical issues. AN/I is a noticeboard for behavioural issues, not content related disputes. I don't know anything about a topic ban. I don't know what it is and nobody has ever told me anything about being under a topic ban. The clear outcome to the previous ANI discussion in 2015 was (I quote) This issue is resolved. User:RHB100 will no longer edit articles relating to GPS. bd2412 T 18:48, 11 Sep. 2015. During that AN/I disucssion you seem to know and understand topic bans. You also state I have decided that in view of the fact that all indications are that I am better educated and more professional being licensed as a professional engineer, my time is too valuable to spend further contributing to the Misplaced Pages article on GPS. I will AGF and assume that you have forgotten what a topic ban is, which is why you violated it (starting when I don't know) and profess ignorance of it above. The people who post these personal attacks above are motivated by hatred not by making the GPS article better. I am a licensed professional engineer. I hold advanced engineering degrees from both the University of Arkansas and UCLA. I am a multi millionaire. I am a philanthropist. All these things incite the hatred of these people who make these personal attacks. Robert, I have no hatred for you. I fail to see why these aspects of yourself would inspire a hatred against you which would bear it self out in opinions regarding your wikipedia behavior.
    Because of all this, I am forced to use your own words against you These comments … were false and libelous personal attacks. They were in violation of Wikapedia rules prohibiting personal attacks. Saying everyone is against you because they Hate you is neither fair nor showing that you have comprehension of the Policies of Misplaced Pages and what your fellow editors have to say here. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 01:35, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Support indef block and furthermore support a hard-and-fast rule, never to be violated nor subject to WP:IAR that any editor who cites their own credentials more that twice in a single discussion, in a single day should be immediately indef blocked, have their talk page access revoked, and be discouraged from ever attempting to take advantage of the standard offer. Especially if they ever cite their own net worth in the course of that. Oh wait, did I forget to leave the link I use to identify when I am making a joke off of that last sentence? Apparently, I did. Oh well. It's too late to add it, now. I guess everyone will just have to wonder exactly how serious I am about that... ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 02:26, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    The event that precipitated this discussion was making valid criticisms of the GPS article. All of these personal attacks on me are a violation of Wikapedia rules preventing personal attacks. No one has been able to show that the criticisms I have made were anything other than valid and correct. And no one has shown that there is anything wrong with making the valid criticisms. I am quite proud of my qualifications and my professionalism. I have done the right thing by criticizing the GPS article in spite of the intense pressure to remain silent. RHB100 (talk) 05:24, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    I knew I had seen it somewhere. It's difficult to see how RHB100 is unaware of an edit restriction when he voluntarily accepted it at this AN3 closure. 86.145.209.23 (talk) 13:19, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    That was probably before the ANI is Archive 273 where he did the same thing. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 13:24, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    As far as I can tell, they havn't violated the AN3 editing restriction. That's also the only one mentioned on their user page and going through the history I can't find a place where they were notified about a different editing restriction and then deleted that notification. The volume and the tone of their posts is rather overbearing and only gotten worse through this ANI filing. Ravensfire (talk) 16:51, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    All of these criticisms, I have made have been on the talk page. I have decided I do not want to waste time getting into edit wars and to refrain from editing the GPS article. And I do recall agreeing to these terms. But having only made criticisms on the talk page I do not understand why the making of these criticisms warrants this administrative proceedings. Now when you are in this administrative proceeding, you are viciously attacked from all sides. And I will admit that in this administrative proceeding, I have not been as friendly as usual. But I think there was no justification for bringing this administrative proceeding in the first place. All I want to do is make honest and objective criticisms on the talk page. My ability to make comments and criticisms useful and beneficial to Wikapedia is attested by the fact that I am a licensed professional engineer and that I had an engineering career that was so highly successful that I became a multi millionaire. RHB100 (talk) 17:35, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    Dude, seriously. Shut up about being a millionaire. Nobody believes you, and you're alienating everyone with this constant over-the-top bragging. There's no room on this project for an editor nobody wants to work with. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:18, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Look before we leap? d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 23:06, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Actually, if he's who he says he is on his user page, it's easy to verify that he really is all these things. Which just goes to show that success in one sphere often doesn't transfer well to other spheres (ahem). Look at Trump (though, of course, we only have Trump's word for it that's he's a success in real estate in the first place). EEng 21:43, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    From what I've seen, that just looks like evidence that he's not who he claims he is. I can't claim to know too many millionaires, but I can say this: successful, well-educated people rarely spend this much effort trying to convince others that they're successful and well-educated. Even if I'm wrong and he's exactly who he claims to be: it doesn't change the fact that nobody likes a braggart, especially one who just won't shut up about it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 23:55, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    Here is an example of the wonderful improvements, I would like to suggest on the talk page of the GPS article. It shows just how much the GPS article can be improved with a few intelligent suggestions on the talk page that I as a licensed professional engineer am capable of making. The good news is that the current section 6.2 Geometric interpretation can be improved A wonderful paper by Richard B. Langley called "The Mathematics of GPS" can be found at http://gauss.gge.unb.ca/gpsworld/EarlyInnovationColumns/Innov.1991.07-08.pdf .

    This paper explains how the intersection of three spheres is inadequate to determine the location of a GPS receiver. The paper goes on to show that the intersection of four spheres is generally sufficient to determine the location of a GPS receiver. The explanation of GPS in this paper is far superior to that found in the current section 6.2 of the GPS article. But the good news is that section 6.2 can be improved to the level of that found in this Langley paper. This can be done by ditching the current contents of section 6.2 and replacing it with an explanation which follows that found in the Langley paper. RHB100 (talk) 21:32, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    Sir, with all due respect for your knowledge, achievements, and good works, you need to accept the situation that you have got yourself in. You have earned yourself a topic ban by failing to take the trouble to learn how Misplaced Pages works. With your knowledge and credentials there are plenty of places you could contribute, for now, other than GPS – places that wouldn't get your emotions riled up (and it happens to the best of us sometimes). If you could do that, for a year or two, then you'll understand better how to be effective in the topic area you really fell passionate about, and then perhaps you can get your topic ban lifted. There's no other path.
    To make that happen you need to immediately demonstrate your willingness to undertake such a plan of action, because the way things are going now, an indefinite block is coming your way. I should add that indefinite does not mean infinite, and even if that happens your editing privileges could be restored, after a time, if you can convincingly express that you understand the reasons you were blocked and that you're likely not to repeat the same behavior.
    Nothing would please me more than to see you editing constructively here, sooner or later, so please take my words under advisement. EEng 21:53, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    • In view of the fact that my time is valuable, that my views although correct seem to be in the minority, I have decided to voluntarily accept a GPS topic ban. The "Problem description" section is in reasonably good shape. But I disagree with the current state of the "Geometric interpretation" section. RHB100 (talk) 23:34, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Your tutelage on how Misplaced Pages works starts now. Lesson One: There are very few people here whose time is not valuable and (brace yourself) there are plenty of people here whose time is way more valuable than yours, whether measured on a billable-hourly-rate basis, a proven-intellectual-ability basis, or any number of other bases. Everyone who participates constructively is valued, but if you keep taking the attitude that your participation is especially valuable, and that you're doing the project a special favor by being here, then your new start will fail quickly.
    Now then... Do you have any ideas for a non–GPS-related topic area you might want to contribute to? You've done a lot of things in your time – why not work in some old-time basic area like mechanical engineering, for a bit? EEng 00:02, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
    I greatly appreciate your inviting me to contribute in other areas. I consider it a privilege to have the opportunity to contribute to Wikapedia in other areas. RHB100 (talk) 00:59, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
    Sometimes editors who have had difficulties take on a "mentor" to guide them in getting their sea legs. I'm afraid I cannot assume that role formally, but I'd like to help you get started. Shall we continue this on your talk page? EEng 01:27, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

    Another Believer

    See also: Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_candidates § Withdrawal

    This user is harassing me to the extent that they have now twice reverted my withdraw of an article on FAC There has been persistent targeting in the last hours, which is fine, whatever. But...they need to calm down. I'll take a block fine, but a word about what wikipedia is for is needed. Note I have had a number of seriously ill informed warnings on my talk from a fan base in the mean time. Ceoil (talk) 19:49, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

    Wow, ok. I'm going to step away and let others deal with User:Ceoil. There are much better ways to be spending my time improving Misplaced Pages. ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:51, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Ceoil's behavour is totlly out of line today, , is that you posting to your own talk as an IP ? seems to go with your recent behaviour. - Mlpearc (open channel) 20:27, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Not my style to log out to inelegantly put my view. Ceoil (talk) 20:31, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Mlpearc, if you're going to make accusations like that you'd better have some evidence. Since the IP geolocates to a different country than Ceoil it seem fairly unlikely. ‑ Iridescent 20:34, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Iridescent: That was a question, calm down. - Mlpearc (open channel) 20:45, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    What? This just seems to be a misunderstanding here. RileyBugz投稿記録 20:37, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Not really. Its actually a fundamental problem that needs to be nipped in the bud. Another Believer wants to blue link each and every painting by particular artists to a redirect to the arists bio. We had a real mess on the Francis Bacon box today, which isnt a trivial problem, apart from reader utility, a number of us use that template to see what has been covered and what has not, ie planning, also it is useful for tracking recent changes. In other instances, eg with Jan Van Eyck the box is used for tracking trends in canonical attribution. If we are now going to link evry and every thing with bio redirects, ie wikidata all this stuff, there is a significant loss in usability & credibility. Ceoil (talk) 20:54, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    There is nothing wrong with redirecting works to appropriate parent articles (such as the article about the artist or a list of works by an individual). Stub articles are appropriate for inclusion in navigation templates. The pages being discussed were originally redirects, which were converted to stubs. The stubs should be displayed in the template. What's the problem? I'm not even going to comment on the accusation of harassing Ceoil -- their edits, edit summaries, and actions speak for themselves. ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:00, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Different problem—I do agree with you that the painting should be kept, although. But, as I said, that is a different problem than the one at hand, and not a serious one where any sanctions are needed. RileyBugz投稿記録 21:06, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Also, just to note, ceoil should probably have told Another Believer that they can withdrawl their own nomination. And, Another Believer should have explained why he was restoring the article to FAC. RileyBugz投稿記録 21:09, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    I have no problem with nomination withdrawals. I just assumed blanking the FAC page wasn't the best procedural way to acknowledge the withdrawal. I noted this at the FAC talk page, just like I've started a few talk page discussions today about Ceoil's edits. ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:11, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    Ok, but I do think that you should have pointed out in the edit summary your reasoning. Anyways, this seems to be resolved, so a close soon might be appropriate, unless there are other problems. RileyBugz投稿記録 21:31, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    With respect Reily, you completely miss the point, and have been less than useless here. Why are you inanely commenting on something you have no idea about? Your just enabling this nonesence. Ceoil (talk) 21:13, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    That wasn't useful at all. —JJBers 21:16, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

    WP:BOOMERANG: The user who started this discussion has been wiping out its talk page, unaware of recent warnings posted in its history. If you Don't Stop Believin', now this may be the time to say "this time, it's for real". You can argue on both sides, but you cannot really report someone who has been telling the truth beforehand. Slasher405 (talk) 21:55, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

    You have typed words, but they make no sense. A very shallow reading of events. Ceoil (talk) 22:02, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    I do think that Ceoil's behaviour today hasn't been very good, but to me it seems that this has just been a bad day here for them. Of course, if the behaviour continues, then a block might be in order, but I think that if Ceoil can just get off WP for a bit and we can stop talking about him for a bit, then all should be good. RileyBugz投稿記録 22:11, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    No. I mentioned above that there is a matter of substance behind this. Also if you look at the diffs there is (pitifully organised) tag teaming, and editors logging out to discredit others. Children will be children, but notice about 142 reverts; 3 on WP:FAC, where they continued the troll claiming concern with process. And thats apart from the fact that AB irreparably made a mess, deliberately, of a Francis Bacon template I had been working on since 2007. Ceoil (talk) 22:13, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    I was referring to the occasional incivility (not this, you have been pretty (sorta) civil on here, apart from one comment) today. I do not know whether I would advocate for sanctions against you, but I think that if you continue with your behaviour today, you might have sanctions imposed on you. I do not want an experienced editor blocked. RileyBugz投稿記録 22:33, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    • I haven't followed everything that has happened, but looking at Template:Francis Bacon (artist), I can see why Ceoil is frustrated. The point of these templates is to link to articles about the topics. Instead, Another Believer redirected the titles of paintings to the artist, then blue-linked them in the template, so you couldn't tell whether a link was going to take you to the painting. When that was reverted, he created micro-stubs on the paintings: "X is a painting by Francis Bacon" (e.g. see Head IV), which is just as unhelpful.Another Believer, if you're serious about creating articles on works of art, that's great, but please don't do it for the sake of creating links. That just creates work for other people, who then have to develop the stubs or leave the template pointing to unhelpful pages. SarahSV 04:14, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
      • I created the stubs because the redirect pages were nominated for deletion, unnecessarily. Also, there is nothing wrong with stubs, nor with including links to stubs in navigation templates. ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:26, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
        • The redirects were not nominated for deletion unnecessarily. They were deleted for a valid deletion reason. See WP:RFD#DELETE#10. The target article, Francis_Bacon_(artist), does not discuss the painting at all and it could plausibly be expanded into an article. That is a valid reason to delete a redirect. It actually encourages someone to write an article when they see the redlink. Where the blue link (redirect) won't encourage someone to write an article because they think the article already exists. ~ GB fan 14:34, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
          • Ah, well, the pages could have easily redirected to the list of works by Bacon, where they are mentioned, and I still don't think a red link is more beneficial to the project than a stub. I was just trying to create stubs from pages that were nominated for deletion. ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:49, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
            • I never said a redlink is more beneficial than a stub. I do think a redlink is more beneficial than a redirect to an article where the painting is not discussed at all. I don't think that a stub that says a painting was done by a painter is helpful to anything. That is what you created. There is no discussion about the painting at all in those three articles. It would have been more helpful to delete the redirects until a proper article was written. ~ GB fan 14:56, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
        • Agreed, and there is plenty wrong with 8 word stubs that only mislead readers into thinking there is something useful there. They are probably better off sticking to google. Another Believer's editing in this area seems to have crossed the line into the disruptive, and he's just not listening to anyone else. Johnbod (talk) 14:40, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    I did, well, enough of them. He has a big advantage: on the main issues he is in the right and you are in the wrong. In particular, how can you justify reverting his withdrawal of his FAC? I know you never normally edit there, but being able to withdraw your own nomination is a basic & familar part of WP editing. Your explanations were disingenuous, and it is hard to believe it was not done deliberately to annoy. Johnbod (talk) 15:04, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    I've already explained this multiple times. I have no problem with withdrawing nominations and was simply trying to make sure the page was archived appropriately and the article's talk page updated, if needed. I apologize if my reverts were wrong, but my explanation is not disingenuous. My goal was not to annoy Ceoil. ---Another Believer (Talk) 16:49, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    Another Believer, it seems clear that you followed Ceoil to an FAC nomination. He nominated Fragment of a Crucifixion (a work of Francis Bacon) at 10:10 on 7 May 2017, then changed his mind at 19:33 and blanked the page. You reverted the blanking at 19:34. What made you turn up there? SarahSV 17:49, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    @SlimVirgin: Oh, for sure I reviewed the editor's history, but I thought this blanking was part of a string of inappropriate edits (in chronological order):
    I was not familiar with this editor and simply thought their editing was inappropriate. Yes, I was monitoring their edits and reviewing their edit history, because I thought they were trolling, not because I was looking to fan the flames. This user was name calling and making offensive statements. I was fine with Ceoil starting this discussion because I assumed other editors would see the inappropriateness of their actions, not mine. I could go dig through edit histories to provide evidence of offensive language, name calling, edit warring, etc., but honestly I'm ready to move on from all of this. This drama is not why I edit Misplaced Pages, and I'd much rather be improving content. ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:01, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    Everyone comes for the Wikidrama...Right? —JJBers 18:17, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    Most definitely not, lol. So, am I off the hook here now that the FAC nomination page has been deleted? Is there evidence that I was actually harassing anyone? I'm moving on to work on other things now and I don't watchlist this page, so please ping me if needed. Thanks. ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:30, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    Another Believer, following Ceoil to his FAC certainly looks like wikihounding. I see that you list several FAs on your user page, so you understand that people become passionate about topics they've put a lot of work into. SarahSV 19:25, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    OK, so, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away from this discussion, apart from the fact that I shouldn't revert an FAC withdrawal. I'll take the slap on the wrist and try to remember not to do this again in the future. Other than this, I think the accusations of harassing Ceoil are completely unjustified. I was just trying to revert what I thought was vandalism and inappropriate editing. I'm ready to move on from this whole ordeal and I'll try to stick to content improvement and let other editors deal with the drama and vandalism. ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:29, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    Thanks for saying you'll look out for this kind of thing in future. Ceoil has been editing since 2006, so it's unlikely that he would suddenly start vandalizing, and if something looks that way, it's either being misinterpreted or it means he's upset. Anyway, we all get passionate about our work, and we clash. Best to leave it there. SarahSV 23:34, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    We all -- most of us -- also blank our own talk pages sometimes, and that is usually OK. That's why WP:OWNTALK says it is OK. So I am surprised to see such blanking being cited above, more than once, as a problem. I suggest the people who mentioned it should read guidelines carefully, and walk calmly away from this discussion. MPS1992 (talk) 23:58, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    Bluelinking by creating redirects, and/or by creating minimal stubs, as pointed out by SarahSV above, can be disturbing and disrupting to ordinary processes by which development goes on, and was so in this case. I don't see User:Another Believer quite acknowledging that. Sorry for butting in "against" you, because I do value our cooperation elsewhere, but this is not isolated. AB has in the past created hundreds of minimal articles on NRHP places in Oregon, which I know really bothers some editors, and IMO the mess it created continues to interfere with development of that area by other editors. One way that it interferes with others enjoyment of editing is that you have butted in and claimed authorship of the topics, forever, and while garnering authorship credit is likely not the other editor's goal, it will always be there in their face that you butted in and disrespected them. (FYI I have been on the receiving end of criticism because of short articles that I created in the past, criticism which I did not think was fair, but I can understand their perspective.) It's AB's prerogative not to cooperate in fixing those NRHP articles by developing them into "proper articles", after being invited to do so by me and perhaps by others, but they shouldn't go to new areas and do the same thing. I see how this is frustrating and depressing to other editors.
    Where does this stand, to fix it for Ceoil? Can someone delete the redirects and minimal stub articles (or move them to Draft space without leaving a redirect behind)? Does this have to be handled in an RFD action plus an AFD action, if so where is the link to that. Hey AB, if you could acknowledge that the redirects and stubs don't need to be kept, I think that would be nice, and perhaps an administrator here would feel more empowered to just go through and restore the "status quo ante". --doncram 03:40, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Doncram, that's a good idea, thanks. Another Believer, would you be okay with those stubs being moved to draft space without a redirect? Ceoil, would that resolve things for you? SarahSV 04:33, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Since you asked, and if I'm being honest, I don't view stubs as bad things and I'd much rather there be a stub than a red link or a redirect. So, while I do want this situation to be resolved (I've moved on already), and I acknowledge doncram's opinion about the impact of stub creation, I'm not going to cave and saying something I don't mean. Look, at the end of the day, my life goes on just fine whether or not any redirects or stubs are kept. Also, I'm quite disappointed to be editor here receiving admonishment, knowing how this section was started. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:12, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Ceoil accused me of harassment, which I don't appreciate or take lightly, especially given their behavior. This user's behavior was completely inappropriate around the time I reverted his FAC nomination, which I did so for procedural purposes and because I thought I was cleaning up erratic editing behavior. I was acting in good faith and trying to protect the integrity of Misplaced Pages. I may not have done so completely correctly, but I was trying. The stubs I created were back in March, and they have nothing to do with Ceoil's behavior or him accusing me of harassment. He was/is upset because red links at Template:Francis Bacon (artist), which should not have been displayed in the navigation template in the first place, were being turned into redirects and appearing as blue links. It's not my fault the redirects were in the template inappropriately, and I wasn't doing anything wrong by creating redirects for these artworks, or creating stubs after the redirect pages were nominated for deletion. I'd like us to please stay focused on behavior and not the disagreement b/w 2 editors over which entries belong in a template (as you'll see on the template's talk page, I've requested the removal of the redirects from the template). IMO, Ceoil is getting a pass on inappropriate behavior, no one else is accusing me of harassment, and somehow this conversation has turned into asking me to acknowledge that redirects and drafts are better for Misplaced Pages than stubs, which I don't agree with. Again, I'm moving on to improve Misplaced Pages now so I'm slowly exiting the room and letting others wrap this up as they see fit. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:30, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    He was/is upset because red links at Template:Francis Bacon (artist), *which should not have been displayed in the navigation template in the first place* - Huh? That is 100% incorrect. In VA that is how we build up articles on the particular artist's works. Ceoil (talk) 20:07, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Um, ok, sure. Misplaced Pages:Navigation template says, "Red links should normally be avoided unless they are very likely to be developed into articles. Red links can be retained in navigation templates that represent a well-defined and complete set of data (geographic divisions, annual events, filmographies, etc.), where deleting red links would leave an incomplete and misleading result." ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:25, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Another Believer, according to that, the red links in this case are fine. But unless I'm missing something, those titles (Head III, Head IV, Head V) were unlinked when you arrived. You can surely see that creating redirects for the template might irritate readers—they see the template "Francis Bacon", and a blue link to a painting, but when they click on it, it redirects them back to Francis Bacon. Anyway, Doncram notes there was a similar situation with places in Oregon, so hopefully it can be avoided in future. SarahSV 22:57, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    I did not add redirects to the navigation template. I converted the redirect pages to stubs after they were nominated for deletion, then added the stubs to the template. ---Another Believer (Talk) 23:07, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Right, the items were on the navigation template and were showing as redlinks. wp:REDLINKS help Misplaced Pages grow. Using a navigation template essentially as a worklist of articles to be created is commonly done, and creating redirects changes them to bluelinks and confounds that. I don't know what area "VA" is, but I know this was done all the time in wp:SHIPS like to have a template for each class of battleship, and there are navigation templates in wp:NRHP in some U.S. states for all the NRHP listings in a county (which is just like the list-articles of NRHP places do). A huge problem was created years ago by one editor creating redirects for NRHP topics to existing nearby town topics in one state, and it changed my Misplaced Pages career as I tried to deal with that editor and others butted in. Including that I took on the task of creating big RFDs to address batches of the redirects that they created, which was a big pain but addressed a lot of it over time. --doncram 23:24, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    Here, I wasn't aware that the redirects were created back in March, which seems to be confirmed by several that I've checked. I don't know about other aspects of this whole discussion, but like AB suggests this aspect doesn't seem appropriate for wp:ANI, or at least no one should be harangued too much about it, and AB has heard enough.

    But anyhow, in order to do something for Ceoil and perhaps to accomplish some resolution here, can I suggest that the existing redirects confounding the Bacon template be deleted. These redirects are, it seems to me, about 40 in number, which I find from "what links here" on Francis Bacon and clicking on the external tool provided by editor Dispenser for just looking at inbound redirects, i.e. at http://dispenser.homenet.org/~dispenser/cgi-bin/rdcheck.py?page=Francis_Bacon_(artist). These are specifically:

    1. After Muybridge - Study of the Human Figure in Motion - Woman Emptying a Bowl of Water
    2. Blood on the Floor (Painting)
    3. Carcase of Meat and Bird of Prey
    4. Diptych (Human Body)
    5. Dog (Bacon 1952)
    6. Double Portrait of Lucian Freud and Frank Auerbach
    7. Female Nude Standing in a Doorway
    8. Figure Study I
    9. In Memory of George Dyer
    10. Lying Figure
    11. Lying Figure with Hypodermic Syringe
    12. Portrait of Lucian Freud (on Orange Couch)
    13. Portrait of Michel Leris, 1976
    14. Portrait of Michel Leris, 1978
    15. Seated Figure (1973)
    16. Self-portrait (Bacon, 1972)
    17. Self-portrait (Bacon, 1973)
    18. Sleeping Figure (Bacon, 1974)
    19. Sphinx: Portrait of Muriel Blecher
    20. Study for a Portrait (Isabel Rawsthorn)
    21. Study for Head of George Dyer
    22. Study for the Nurse in the film Battleship Potemkin
    23. Study for Three Heads
    24. Study from Innocent X
    25. Study from the Human Body
    26. Three Figures and Portrait
    27. Three Studies for a Portrait of George Dyer
    28. Three Studies for a Portrait of John Edwards (1980)
    29. Three Studies for a Portrait of Lucian Freud
    30. Three Studies for a Portrait of Peter Beard
    31. Three Studies for a Self Portrait (1973)
    32. Three Studies for a Self Portrait (Bacon 1974)
    33. Three Studies for a Self Portrait (Bacon 1976)
    34. Three Studies for a Self Portrait (Bacon 1979)
    35. Three Studies for the Head of Isabel Rawsthorn
    36. Three Studies from the Human Head
    37. Three Studies of Henrietta Moraes laughing
    38. Three Studies of Muriel Belcher
    39. Triptych 1976
    40. Triptych inspired by T.S Elliot's 'Sweeney Agonistes'
    41. Two Figures (Bacon)
    42. Two Figures Lying on a bed with Attendants
    43. Two Seated Figures

    I think that deleting those would be helpful, and I ask that someone just do that. Consider this a fast RFD. Or if someone would open a formal RFD about this, and link to that, that would be great. I would do that but if I recall correctly it is quite hard to do, and requires notices to be posted at every page involved, while there is plenty of attention paid here already. If it turns out that one of these redirects is needed after all, for some reason, it can easily be restored. About the stubs that were created, I am not sure which they are, and I think removing them to Draft space is more objectionable to AB as far as I can tell, so right now I would just drop that, I guess. Could someone take care of those redirects? --doncram 23:24, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    But of course probably no administrator will do anything, because this is wp:ANI is my brief understanding, and I have gone ahead an opened a cumbersome and slow wp:RFD request at the aptly named section: Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 May 10#Blood on the Floor (Painting). If, contrary to my expectation, someone would just go ahead, that would be great, and the RFD will then be closed. I dunno, maybe having an RFD is helpful for participants to really grok what is bad about redirects wiping out good redlinks. --doncram 01:53, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

    Balfour Declaration

    I was recently involved in a conversation at Talk:Balfour Declaration about the citations and explanatory notes present in the article Balfour Declaration. The problem is that there's more than 6,000 words of quotations, mostly from copyright works. Misplaced Pages:Non-free content#Text says that "Extensive quotation of copyrighted text is prohibited." The editors of the article have reverted removal of the material twice, and we are at an impasse. Hence I am posting here to get opinions from others as to whether this amount of copying from copyright material should be permitted to remain in the article. Thanks, — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 22:46, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

    As the editor who removed 37k of quoted material from the notes alone, I too would welcome comment. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:57, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
    I tried to get Diannaa to examine one-by-one her massive deletion of multiple quotes from different sources but she declined for lack of time. She seems not to have read the article carefully and does not ask why quotes from scholars are needed in validating one of the most controversial topics in 20th century history. Diannaa asserted: our non-free content policy does not permit this amount of non-free content without a very good reason for each quote. In my opinion she has misread and mis-paraphrased the rule. It actually says Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used . Yes indeed. The rule also says Extensive quotation of copyrighted text is prohibited. -- the word 'text' is singular and refers to one text. We do not have extensive quotation from one source--the longest quote is 365 words long. The article is 140,000 bytes long or about 20,000 words. My counting shows there are 33 brief quotations under copyright from 28 different scholars. The average length is 109 words. I have read them all and in my judgment each quote is appropriate and helps validate a highly controversial issue. That is, I judge there is "a very good reason for each quote." Rjensen (talk) 01:18, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    Another point. Arab-Israeli issues, such as the Balfour Declaration, are highly controversial in a historical sense of the word and in terms of Misplaced Pages guidelines. See Talk:Arab–Israeli conflict for the strong warnings. The WP:QUOTE rule is: When dealing with a controversial subject. As per the WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV policy, biased statements of opinion can only be presented with attribution. Quotations are the simplest form of attribution. Editors of controversial subject should quote the actual spoken or written words to refer to the most controversial ideas. Controversial ideas must never appear to be "from Misplaced Pages". In other words, Wiki rules strongly recommend quotations for high-octane disputes, and I think many of the 33 quotes under discussion here fall under that policy. (Here are two examples of this controversial POV rhetoric: 1) quoting Renton: "The myth of British 'proto-Zionism’, which has had such a longstanding influence on the historiography of the Balfour Declaration, was thus produced, so as to serve the needs of Zionist propagandists working for the British Government."; 2) another example: quoting Gelvin: "Zionism itself was also defined by its opposition to the indigenous Palestinian inhabitants of the region. Both the 'conquest of land' and the 'conquest of labor' slogans that became central to the dominant strain of Zionism in the Yishuv originated as a result of the Zionist confrontation with the Palestinian 'other'. ") Rjensen (talk) 02:36, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    When it comes to text, the question should be asked as to how much of the individual works are used in our article, and should not be how many total quotes are used (But I do note that WP:QUOTEFARM is something to avoid when possible. Without a detailed read, it does seem like most of the quotes are coming from a variety of sources on the matter, so this would be acceptable. --MASEM (t) 03:04, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    The length of these quotations is appropriate as a means to provide critical documentation in a controversial article. This is a model of what we should be doing across articles in Misplaced Pages as a best practice. There is no justification under policy to remove these quotations. Alansohn (talk) 02:29, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    Repeated fair use violations

    TechnicianGB (talk · contribs)

    Asilah1981 (talk · contribs)

    This is a result of Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion/2017 March 29#File:Official Köppen climate classification of Spain maded by AEMET.png and is a culmination of many many attempts to get full and valid fair use rationales for every attempted use of the image here: File:Official Köppen climate classification of Spain maded by AEMET.png

    I have attempted numerous times to explain to both the above editors how fair use works and that the burden of creating fair use rationales is on the one that wants to place the image on specific articles. I thought I was getting somewhere, but apparently there is either some break down in communication or wanton disregard of our policy on the use of copyrighted images. Frankly, I've had enough. These two editors have now tried numerous times to insert this image into articles without filling out fair use rationales against policy. This is considered a copyright violation. The latest addition to Iberian Peninsula was the final straw and after giving a final warning to Asilah, TechnicianGB went and reinserted the image again without any attempt to fill out a FUR. This has now crossed the line into pure disruption and repeated copyright violations. Asking for an admin to take a look at this and to put a stop to the nonsense. --Majora (talk) 02:21, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    I thought we all agreed that the page on Iberian Peninsula makes a completely fair use and it's not needed to fulfill a FUR for this article... lol? --TechnicianGB (talk) 03:38, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    I just did a search of that FFD discussion and I literally said "every" article requires a FUR 5 separate times. So right now you are in clear WP:ICANTHEARYOU territory. --Majora (talk) 03:41, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    Now the file will be deleted after May 10. I hope you are happy, you achieved your scope. ;) it's not even worthy for me to write a will to explain why this file must remain on Misplaced Pages. First the file was scaled to a lower size because it's "not free" meanwhile the copyright of the source clearly states that is free to use without commercial purposes, as it's a own Spanish official / public agency who made it. Not happy with that, now you made this. Enjoy it! You done it. Congratulations! @Majora:. I love how do you think that you improve Misplaced Pages, deleting useful files. ;) --TechnicianGB (talk) 03:44, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    On Misplaced Pages, we require that for an image to be free, it must be usable and modifyable by all downstream users, so a license that restricts to non-commercial use is not considered a free image here. --MASEM (t) 03:46, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    And I wasn't the one that tagged the image. I was trying to get you to a state where the image was acceptable. It was you that refused to listen. So you can take your blame and give it to someone else. In any case, the tagging of the image does not excuse your inherent inability to listen to what people are trying to tell you. Copyright is a huge deal here. If you can't understand what we need then you need to stop editing the file namespace. Period. --Majora (talk) 03:48, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    Best regards to you too, Majora. --TechnicianGB (talk) 03:57, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Masem: I can upload it with a different type of use? I mean, to not upload it again with a "free image" tag ? I can also make a map by myself... --TechnicianGB (talk) 03:58, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    Is there a particular reason File:Spain map of Köppen climate classification.svg (or anything else in c:Category:Köppen climate classification maps of Spain) won't work for all these use cases? See Geography of South Korea. Non-free maps are hardly ever acceptable unless the map itself is subject of discussion. – Train2104 (t • c) 04:58, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    Of course: Those maps are extremely bad in relationship to the climatic reality of those zones. Just compare them with the AEMET map (official agency) and see that you can find 13 different climates in Spain, not 8. And many of those represented in that map are extremely bad in comparison with the real life... It's simply a joke for someone who is a climate enthusiast like me. Madrid the same climate as Alicante according to that map... and both have very different climates. --TechnicianGB (talk) 05:24, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    References

    1. http://www.aemet.es/documentos/es/divulgacion/publicaciones/Atlas-climatologico/Atlas.pdf

    I agree, maps are (very) incorrect so there is no alternative to AEMET official map. Is an additional Fair Use rationale needed for Spain and Iberian Peninsula? They both have prominent climate sections... Also, Majora, don't you think that it would be more productive to add the FUR yourself, thus assisting the Misplaced Pages project, instead of opening this ANI? It would have taken you less time. Asilah1981 (talk) 08:08, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    I would also like to point out that Majora's extremely aggressive threatening tone is not warranted. Please discuss solutions and build consensus in talk rather than threaten other editors with a block. Thanks. Asilah1981 (talk) 08:24, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    You were told multiple times not to do something. You (both) kept doing it. The solution is to comply with wikipedia's fair use policies. Which you were told to do. So do it. Repeatedly breaching copyright by failing to provide a fair use rationale *after being informed you have to provide one* is grounds for a block. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:41, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    Instead of squabbling can we at least work together to resolve the issue. The image clearly has to stay in those three articles. If something has to be done (providing a fair use rationale, whatever, can you (plural) do it? I think the main problem is none of us KNOW how to do it except Majora, who so far has not given us specific directions on what to do. Asilah1981 (talk) 11:03, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    See Misplaced Pages:Non-free use rationale guideline, which has instructions and some sample templates you can use. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:35, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    By what I can see it has been done here already. https://en.wikipedia.org/File:Official_K%C3%B6ppen_climate_classification_of_Spain_maded_by_AEMET.pngAsilah1981 (talk) 12:24, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    FUR have been created by the only three articles that seem to support a fair-use claim: Climate of Spain, Iberian Peninsula, and Climate of Portugal. As mentioned, it's not rocket science. --Discasto (talk) 13:36, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    The FUR's are there, but I'm still sticking with my belief that this image is violating NFCC criterion 1, as the threshold for non-free media is not just whether a free alternative exists, but whether one could be created. FUR templates are a necessary procedural matter, but our goal is to do more than just go through the motions. – Train2104 (t • c) 14:06, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    Hi Train2104. I see your point, but I'm afraid it's not that simple. I've had a look at the source and noticed this: "El tratamiento de interpolación y el cartografiado de la variable precipitación y de la clasificación de Köppen han sido realizados por Andrés Chazarra" (The interpolation handling and the mapping of the rain variable as well as the Köppen classification has been carried out by Andrés Chazarra). My understanding is that the generation of the map requires a complete dataset and some specific processing to have it created. That's something that, unless the dataset is available and the processing tools are in place, cannot be reproduced. Of course, it's my (humble) opinion. --Discasto (talk) 14:25, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    The file is going to get deleted on the 10th of May? Why? Where is that discussion taking place?Asilah1981 (talk) 15:47, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    @Asilah1981: it won't be deleted. Actually I changed the status of the image to disputed, as it can't be replaced. We just had to do that in order to not follow with the removal. I did it, and now we can see this discussion and the FUR are already fullfilled for the 3 articles... (btw, thanks for doing it, as @Discasto: too, which really surprised me). So now I suppose that Majora can't complain more... and you're right, that attitude is not very appropiate. --TechnicianGB (talk) 19:03, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    Majora's "attitude" is the natural outcome of your refusal to understand fair-use and to comply to Misplaced Pages's rules. At the end of the day, it's been me and not you the one that have tried to fulfill the fair-use requirements. Ranting and removing templates while still under discussion will eventually lead you to being blocked. --Discasto (talk) 20:11, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    My attitude is not appropriate? That's rich. Considering you two have repeated violated copyright policy again and again in a clear disruptive string of behavior even though I tried, multiple times, to get you to stop. Asilah, you even did it again after this thread was started . In clear violation of everything everyone was trying to tell you. This is clear disruption. --Majora (talk) 20:56, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    The reason I tagged the file with {{di-replaceable fair use}} (which may not be removed before the decision to delete the file occurs, which will happen after May 10) is that I agree with Train2104 in that a freely licensed image with the same data could reasonably be created. If you look at other articles on climate (e.g. Climate of the United States), the files on the article are not copyrighted and are freely licensed. —MRD2014 📞 contribs 19:45, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    If you have a look at File:US50states koppen.svg, you'll notice that it's been done by using information openly provided by the University of Oregon. Unfortunately, in Spain the attitude towards open data is really different and such information does not seem to be openly available. --Discasto (talk) 20:26, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    I have a feeling this may be the case; I haven't had a chance to research if but if the weather statistics/data is not published, we can't make a free replacement (it would be improperly OR to try to read that off this graph). It also seems that data can be protected in Spain Copyright law of Spain, so even if there were open databases of weather data, using a substantial portion may be inappropriate. That it, a person in the US could make a "free" image (where data is not protected and we can remake graphs from published data freely), but the data would still have copyright nature to the Spanish agency that collected it, making it a free-er non-free version here. But this is a very high level read, and we might want to see about asking someone at Commons about this who knows more about Spanish copyright law. In lieu of that, this is a reasonable non-free to use, but per NFC, needs to be very limited in its use, and needs a separate rationale for each use. --MASEM (t) 20:33, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    Point of order Masem. Enwiki does not care about the copyright status of works in other countries. In practice we violate it all the time with {{PD-ineligible-USOnly}}. However, that designation is generally only used for logos that otherwise would not meet the threshold of originality in the US (generally UK logos). So in theory, as long as the data is published and it is uploaded directly to enwiki, Spanish copyright law does not matter at all. In general practice though, everything besides logos we tend to respect the copyright of other countries. It just depends on whether or not we would want to do so in this case. --Majora (talk) 20:56, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    That's sorta what I was trying to get at. I agree that scenario possibly can qualify as PD-USonly (and thus potentially reuable on en.wiki many times), though as you say, I've never seen that applied to anything but logos and workmarks. It's just here, I can't readily tell if the original data is available outside of interpreting off the existing map, which we do not want to do (too much error, OR issues, etc.) --MASEM (t) 21:02, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    Discasto, I didn't know I had to make another template. I thought I had to change the template to disputed, not to make another one. Btw, now it's correctly done. --TechnicianGB (talk) 20:33, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    Can someone please help TechnicianGB make another template?Asilah1981 (talk) 09:53, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    IP 70.102.136.132

    Moved from Misplaced Pages:Help desk – Ad Orientem (talk) 03:19, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    I'm not sure where to post this specific request, however 70.102.136.132 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) has made numerous edits to Misplaced Pages by changing small facts here which go through our vandal checking. It took me hours to determine diff was wrong in an article, and checking his other contribs seems like he has left a ton of inaccuracies everywhere. I'm requesting for someone to go through his contribs and revert his changes manually, since none of them are sourced. Thanks -- penubag  (talk) 02:29, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    Hello penubag, thanks for bringing this into notice. I'll go through the IP's contributions and assist where all I can. With respect to reporting the IP (if your query included that too), as the IP edits are dated, nothing needs to be done currently (apart from perhaps keeping a watch if the editing is egregiously bad). In the future, you may additionally consider reporting such cases to the WP:AIV desk (but only if the vandal edits are recent) or the WP:ANI (in case of editing that is below the line disruptive). Please don't hesitate to come back here for assistance in the future if you are unsure. Thanks. Lourdes 02:50, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    Thanks, since he doesn't cite any of his edits, that should be sufficient grounds to revert all his edits. It should just be a matter of seeing if the edits are still persisting. -- penubag  (talk) 02:56, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    Not quite. You would need to confirm if the edits are actual vandalism or misplaced good faith attempts at editing , before reverting/undoing them unilaterally. If in doubt, ask for help here. Lourdes 03:11, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Penubag: Where is the evidence (from your "hours of checking") that the change to Otsu's_method was wrong? Doesn't the IP's changed version agree with a range of published sources, such as http://research.ijcaonline.org/volume49/number9/pxc3880757.pdf, https://rdrr.io/bioc/EBImage/man/channel.html, http://www.bioconductor.org/packages/release/bioc/manuals/EBImage/man/EBImage.pdf, and http://cmm.ensmp.fr/~marcoteg/cv/publi_pdf/amira/2016_IET_AdaptiveBinarisationSceneText.pdf (to name but a few)? I see that you didn't give any sources for your edit. --David Biddulph (talk) 03:01, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    Responded on Talk:Otsu's method -- penubag  (talk) 03:26, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    I'm not convinced of what action is required of an administrator, and I don't see evidence of vandalism. I do see that the value .7152 occurs in the article Grayscale, but I'll leave it for the experts on the relevant content and sources to judge. --David Biddulph (talk) 03:48, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
    The value of .7152 occurs also at Luma (video). --David Biddulph (talk) 04:14, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

    Political censorship at Douban

    There is political censorship ongoing at Douban – persistent blanking of content cited to a reliable source. Engaging on the talk page has failed. I also left a message at Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard about 24 hours ago with no response from admins. Citobun (talk) 03:58, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    There need to be more eyes on this editor. Going through his recent contributions shows an extreme slant towards nationalist views. Calling BBC unreliable is laughable. --Tarage (talk) 04:37, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Tarage:You don't have to unfriendly to me. Whaterss (talk) 08:23, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Citobun:Probably you have used the wrong word, according to Political censorship, "Political censorship exists when a government attempts to conceal, fake, distort, or falsify information that its citizens receive by suppressing or crowding out political news that the public might receive through news outlets. ". Unfortunately, I'm not part of any governments. Calling my edits "censorship " is inappropriate. Whaterss (talk) 08:30, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Don't ping me, I'm watching the thread. And don't template me. Nothing I said above is a personal attack. You can have a strong nationalist view and not be a part of a government. Your edits are questionable at best. I suggest you stop digging the hole deeper and go edit something else for a while. You obviously can't be objective about nations or politics. --Tarage (talk) 08:38, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Sorry for having bothered you, it's part of my character anyway. Whaterss (talk) 09:00, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Citobun: I quit. I faithfully apologize to you for any bothers I have made. I will not get involved in any political edits. Whaterss (talk) 09:13, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    A few key points. This appears to be largely a WP:Content dispute for now, therefore it does not and will hopefully never require administrative attention. There are multiple methods of WP:Dispute resolution, but ANI is never one of them. Using the talk page is good, but if it's only 2 of you and you cannot resolve the dispute by yourselves, the dispute resolution page outlines various methods you can seek further help. Using RSN when there is dispute of a reliable source is actually a decent method, but you need to give more than 24 hours for a response and you need to take on board the feedback of any editor, and not just administrators. Nil Einne (talk) 13:23, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    User:MjolnirPants on Reliable Sources Noticeboard and other pages

    MjolnirPants simply will not help build a constructive page on argument from authority. He and I disagree on what sorts of sources are acceptable, so as seems sensible I went to the reliable sources noticeboard. Yet even there, he changes the title of the submission to mockingly include references to “random youtube martial artists” and completely misrepresent the issue. (The sources he presents are not even ones which I have in mind!). Please assist so that a productive, civil discussion can be had. PraiseTheShroom (talk) 04:32, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    <grabs the popcorn> ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 04:38, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Youtube is not a reliable source. You are in the wrong here. I'll go ahead and revert your changes. --Tarage (talk) 04:40, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Off-topic nitpicking by yours truly. I don't actually disagree on the substance. I just don't like over-simplistic statementsabout how "YouTube isn't a reliable source", as it makes life difficult for those of us who actually do use it as the reliable source that it very often can be. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:57, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Tarage: Sorry to seem like a devil's advocate, but you hit on one of my pet peeves. It has nothing to do with the specific videos in question, but "YouTube" is not normally the source being cited, and as a "source" is not inherently either reliable or unreliable. The publisher (the YouTube channel that uploaded the video) can be reliable or unreliable, and sometimes people link bootleg YouTube videos of documentaries or lectures that were not even originally meant to be posted on YouTube. This latter is an ELNEVER for copyright reasons, but it doesn't mean the video that was bootlegged is itself an unreliable source (I remember, in a talk page discussion, citing a radio interview with Bart Ehrman that I had heard in the form of a likely-bootleg YouTube video that I was unwilling to link, but the content of the interview itself was not unreliable). I remember citing a video from The Young Turks (a left-wing news organization generally considered adequately reliable for uncontroversial statements where no other sources contradict them) to fill in a tag, and I was reverted by an IP who said pretty much the same thing you did above, even though "YouTube" was not my source. Search the RSN archives for "YouTube" and I guarantee you will find dozens of users asking if "YouTube" is a reliable sources and quickly being told that their question somewhat misses the point that "web video" is a medium, not a publisher. In theory, YouTube videos are self-published, and so are subject to normal restrictions on said, but in reality a lot of YouTube videos are not self-published, as the accounts that uploaded them are not operated by the people who are being cited as the sources. This is a well-known example with which both MPants and I are familiar. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:57, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Hijiri88: There were plenty of reasons to pick. I went for the easiest out of being lazy. --Tarage (talk) 07:01, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Cool. As long as no newbies read your comment wihout also reading the title of this collapsed section, no harm done. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:57, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Please read what I am saying: I do not care about any YouTube source. He is misconstruing me with that and has even changed the title of my submission to be about an irrelevant issue. What I did was add a citation of the Medical Press and Circular journal, which was deleted for not being a philosophical source by him. PraiseTheShroom (talk) 04:46, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    Is this an appeal to authority about which sources are authoritative for the article on that fallacy? As curious as that may be philosophically, what administrative action is needed here? Jonathunder (talk) 04:43, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    He is changing the titles of my submissions in an insulting manner, and will not help build but only reverts to an old version PraiseTheShroom (talk) 04:46, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Newbies who have been at the receiving end of the undo button often feel that "building" is somehow more protected an activity than "deleting". They are wrong. Deleting bad content is on precisely the same policy-footing as adding good content. In the eyes of Misplaced Pages's administration, your edits are no better than Mjolnir's. Well, maybe his are better, since he's right. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:50, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    (edit conflict) what administrative action is needed here? Just taking a wild guess here, but I suspect I may need to be indeffed because I'm such an annoying stickler for using sources by philosophers and logicians in an article about a defeasible argument. You know, as opposed to environmental scientists, youtube personalities, and primary school educators. Or maybe it's because I'm engaged in "rampant ludditism" or because I'm "running wild". ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 04:52, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    The Shroom's last edit added "is a type of argument which argues that because a person or group seen as having authority on an issue believes something about it, it is likely to be true" and removed the bit about it being fallacious. You may take it on excellent authority (mine) that this is mushroom food. Jonathunder (talk) 04:55, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    The point is, Shroom, step away before you hurt yourself. You are incorrect. --Tarage (talk) 05:01, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    To be fair, Shroom is merely contending that his authorities are more authoritative than my authorities when they lend their authority to the claim that authorities can never be authoritative. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 05:04, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    I would not trust Mjolnir's summary of the matter. He has only one advanced userright, so cannot be considered an authority on Misplaced Pages-related matters. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:08, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Damn. You got me. And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those meddling kids... ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 05:13, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Yes, thank you, Bernard. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:47, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    I wanted to join in on the above, but couldn't think of anything witty to say, and I'm apparently not very good at it to begin with, so it's probably best I shut up before embarrassing myself by making LOUD NOISES. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:40, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Well... THAT escalated quickly. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 05:45, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    • WP:BOOMERANG -- the filing editor is the one causing the problems and edit warring against WP:CONSENSUS and has been warned to stop. I don't mind him/her posting at the talk page--if he or she remains civil and strikes all ad hominems such as "rampant ludditism". As a remedy, I propose a one week prohibition of any changes to the article (not talk page) be imposed (which if violated leads to a one week block) or a different time period at the discretion of an admin. as appropriate. Other editors making similar edits against concensus have received one week blocks, but they are experienced editors so more leniency is appropriate for this editor, who I believe is new. I would support mentoring as well, but I am not volunteering for that job. --David Tornheim (talk) 05:11, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    He's about to be blocked for edit warring if he reverts again... --Tarage (talk) 05:13, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Support boomerang, per my own comment below. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:26, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    • I've been keeping my bad eye on this dispute for a while for other reasons, and when I saw this I wasn't sure if the OP had been involved in an off-colour discussion on a user talk page that I had read. He wasn't but it seems like he was the only one on his "side" of the dispute who wasn't. I have to say I find it interesting that two users on the OP's "side" were blocked in quick succession by User:Nyttend, while the only user on MPants's "side" who has recently been blocked was for a completely unrelated reason. On top of this, virtually every time RSN regulars get brought to ANI for their (honestly not all that out-of-line) behaviour on RSN the result is usually either a BOOMERANG or at least a trout for the OP. This happened with Nish a few weeks back (though not specifically for RSN problems), and if memory serves it has happened to MPants as well. That said, I find the content-based core of this dispute to be utterly laughable, and both "sides" should probably be trouted. Misplaced Pages editors should write article bodies based on external sources, and summarize those bodies in the article leads. Articles leads should not be drafted, redrafted, counterdrafted and !voted upon based on external sources, regardless of whether they just happen to summarize the body anyway. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:26, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    To be fair (to me, so I guess what I mean is "To be self-serving-but-still-honest"), drafting the lede wasn't my idea, though I reluctantly supported it. And while the body lacks any coherent definition or analysis of the argument, that is not to say that it has always had such a lack. Me and Original Position had a section defining and analyzing it there about a year ago, but the two blocked editors chipped away at it until it was gone. Currently, the lede is the only part of the article that hasn't been subjected to ~12 months of show POV pushing, and contains the only definition and analysis of the subject. I intend to correct that very soon, in a restructuring that will likely shorten the lede and create at least one new section. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 05:41, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Yeah, I don't know whose fault it was. I just think anyone who has been involved on any deeper level than "What are you talking about? The lead should summarize the body, not the contents of external sources" should be trouted. I edit leads myself a lot of the time, but if a dispute explicitly about the lead of an article as opposed to the body goes on this long, it should have quickly morphed into a dispute about the article as a whole because drafting leads and disputing about leads completely misses he point. The above support for a BOOMERANG is based more on Shroom, and only Shroom, having chosen to take the dispute to ANI rather simply counting himself as lucky not to have been blocked already, when it seems like everyone else has been, than on anything specifically to do with he content of the dispute. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:54, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    I wholeheartedly concur with your view on the purpose of the lede. The only issue in this case was that the body of the article didn't actually accurately describe the subject of the article. That's being addressed as we speak. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:08, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    @Hijiri88: Check out this version. I've taken your concerns to heart and moved the structure and examples to a new section. I've also trimmed out some deceptively edited quotes, and claims that weren't supported by the sources, as well as adding important information to bring some claims in the article into agreement with the sources used. I didn't realize that the body was that bad, but I suspect more eyes will be needed. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:43, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    I had an edit conflict with some of the above, and while copy-pasting I thought it wiser to clarify something. Whether or not a ping could ever be considered canvassing (and the jusy is still, apparently, out on that one), my pinging of Nyttend was because of his already being quite involved in this incident (the opening of this ANI thread honestly reads like a last stab at "getting" MjolnirPants now that everyone else has been blocked for disruptive behaviour). I would also honestly rather be pinging any admin other than Nyttend, since he historically has a tendency to show up out of nowhere and block me. He's a good admin who does good work (and one of his suck-punch blocks actually helped me out quite a bit back in 2013), so I'm not trying to make this about him. Just deflecting any possible suspicion of canvassing. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:26, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    To be perfectly honest, if I were them I'd be really annoyed at getting pinged to this. Poor guy/gal's put up with enough of this crap, and has remained steadfastly dedicated to improving the project throughout. And they've had to deal with me during this, so... Yeah. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 05:47, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    You may well be right. As I said, it's my bad eye I've been keeping on the dispute, so I don't know to what degree he may have already tired out of it, or even to what degree he has been involved up to this point. I just thought I should ping him since the OP not doing so when Nyttend's having blocked the other two has probably hurt Shroom's situation a lot more than anything you've done, so it seemed like somewhat GAMEy behaviour. If Nyttend is annoyed at having been pinged, I apologize for causing annoyance. That was not my intent. (In theory I could have used Template:Noping for the same effect, and if I suspected the ping might be annoying I would have done that. But honestly I prefer being pinged to someone mentioning me and not pinging me, unless the piger is only doing it to be antagonistic, i.e., I've already requested that they stop pinging me. The Golden Rule is pretty shitty in a lot of real-life situations but I've found applying it on Misplaced Pages has a disproportionately positive effect.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:54, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    You can use "guy". See my userpage; that's the only option for Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/Eagle Scout :-) No complaints about the ping; this is entirely reasonable, especially as just a few hours earlier I'd discussed Shroom's actions on this specific article, as well as blocking two other editors for disrupting an article that a year ago I'd blocked them for disrupting and warned them not to edit more. I didn't look at the video situation this time around, but having watched it last time, I know that one of the problems was that people were persistently using it to say what it didn't say — regardless of how reliable or unreliable a source is, using it to say something it doesn't say is hoaxing and thus (in a non-legal sense) fraudulent; see a good summary of the issue. I'm not sure what to do with this article, which basically keeps attracting problems. It's really tempting just to revert the article back about ten or eleven years and then full-protect the article and the talk page. Any more-reasonable suggestions? Any other admin with a good idea and/or with a readiness to handle the situation? Nyttend (talk) 11:35, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    So long as the version from ten or eleven years ago is based on sources of the same qualities as those in the lede I've been pushing (in other words; works from logicians and philosophers which specifically cover the topic of this argument), that would be a perfectly acceptable solution to me. That being said, I doubt many others would agree with permanently fully protecting the page, because what if there's a typo? What if some wonderful new example gets written about? What if, what if, what if... etc.
    But to be sure, this content argument is a perennial problem on this page, going back to 2007 at the least. I'm a little surprised that there are no sources covering what appears to be a common phenomenon here: people who not only mistakenly believe that appealing to an authority is always a fallacy, but who will appeal to perceived authorities to prove it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:25, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    Extra header for simpler section editing

    • The best solution I can see is actually getting Arbcom to make a ruling on this. They wouldn't, of course, need to take an issue on the content questions, but could implement a set os discretionary sanctions which could be used to nip this sort of problematic POV pushing in the bud. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:27, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    • I checked some ten-years-old revisions, and they had no sourcing at all. The content appeared to be better, but I'm not cutting out the sourcing, of course. That's one of those "I wish I could" things, not something that I'm actively considering doing. Nyttend (talk) 21:50, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Most cases focus on one or a few editors, or on a group of articles, but a case for a single article wouldn't be unprecedented; they've had cases for Speed of light and for Tree shaping, for example, and I think there was one on the Monty Hall problem as well. Nyttend (talk) 21:54, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    The more I think about full protection, the less I like it. The sourcing problem you mentioned means we'd have to come up with a "definitive" version of the page (either by restoring old text with new sources, which is a mess of work in and of itself, or by defining a stable version from what's currently there), and while I'm very confident in my own edits, I don't think for one second that means that no-one else could possibly improve upon them. Indeed, I think the article still needs some work. I might try putting together an Arbcom request later during the week. At least then you wouldn't be the only admin dealing with it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 00:09, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
    Again, I'm not seriously suggesting doing it. It's one of those situations where the solution would probably be worse than the cure, but the solution would still feel good because we'd be rid of the immediate problem. Nyttend (talk) 01:10, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
    Do you hear that pervasive sound? It's the sound of nobody arguing with you. ;) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 01:25, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
    Okay, I wasn't sure of your meaning, and I just wanted to make it clear :-) Nyttend (talk) 02:27, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

    Several violations

    1) By HistoryofIran (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    a) WP:CIV violation. , Take your disruptive editing to the Russian Misplaced Pages as you did earlier;
    one of the many reasons you can't call Qizilbash a 'Turkic group', which is only seen in the Russian/Azeri Misplaced Pages where no one is there to stop your historical revionistic edits
    b) User refuses to discuss the problem. See diffs above. Not even gonna argument with you, since it is simply a fact
    c) WP:WAR
    edit by user
    revert by me
    revert of revert by user
    2) By Mazandar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    WP:WAR
    deletion of consensus information
    revert
    revert of revert

    John Francis Templeson (talk) 11:16, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    Admins, you might wanna take a look at John Francis Templeson edits, as he is no saint himself (especially when it comes to reverting). I would love to go into details, but I have no time to do so atm. The reason I didn't want to discuss in depths with him, is because he is very hard to discuss with, which can be seen in the last 4 (!) sections of this page . I am just one of the few users who revert his unconstructive edits, which he then takes to the Russian Misplaced Pages instead. Not to mention at most times he ignores other reliable sources and favour those he likes the most. So yes, it is indeed disruptive editing. Btw . Also, I am pretty sure you can't report someone for something that happened back in February 2017? Not to mention that I made those reverts because he was making falsified information by hiding it behind a source that stated something else, which is against the rules.--HistoryofIran (talk) 18:54, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    Every Wikipedist has his point of view. If you think that my point of view is wrong, you must discuss, not just ignore arguments and violate Misplaced Pages rules.

    If you think that you can violate rules just because I have not much time, you are wrong. Btw I have already informed administrator James Watson in February and in April and he advised me to go here, what I did.

    Dear colleagues, please take a look on user's comment. Again user blames me in disruptive editing, making falsification and violations without any concrete proof and diff. It's also rude form of WP:CIV violation, and I demand sanctions for this user. John Francis Templeson (talk) 19:54, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    I know nothing about this particular issue, but John Francis Templeson, you appear to be under a serious misapprehension about what Misplaced Pages is and how it works. We don't ask every editor to given their point of view and then discuss which POV to take; we neutrally summarise what the available sources say, giving due weight to each viewpoint (in the case of some fringe views, "due weight" is "no weight"). If you're looking for somewhere that will consistently operate on the basis of "teach the controversy", Misplaced Pages is probably not the place for you. ‑ Iridescent 19:59, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    I edit Misplaced Pages in two languages more than year and know what is Misplaced Pages, dear colleague. You, as experienced user, must know that in some topics there can be different points of view for the same thing, and so we have mediation, third opinion and etc to decide what is wrong and what is right. I am not vandal, support my views with reliable sources that btw ignored by user, so it's not very pleasurable when someone offers me to just leave Misplaced Pages just because I have a conflict with other user. Thank you. John Francis Templeson (talk) 20:18, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    John Francis Templeson; My proof is literally up there? You literally did falsification, which thus doesn't make me violate WP:CIV at all. Sure, every Wikipedist have his point of view, but there surely must be a reason when several users are reverting you, right? This is exactly what I am talking about when I am saying that is almost impossible to discuss with this user, who is clearly not here to build an encyclopedia. Iridescents comment pretty much says the rest. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:05, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    IP adding incorrect info to movie awards articles

    73.28.172.74 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    I came across this user while monitoring Recent Changes. I noticed that they had made this edit to 21st Critics' Choice Awards, changing the name of one of the nominees. I verified in the article sources that the information this user added was incorrect, so I reverted the changes. Then I checked the user's contributions, and saw that they have been doing the same on other movie awards articles – changing the name of one of the nominees (mostly animated films), sometimes twice so that if only one edit is reverted, the article will still contain inaccurate info. To complicate matters, some of these articles are not adequately referenced, and I have not been able to find reliable sources online for the older awards; so I am not certain whether the movie names that were there before the IP changed them are actually the correct ones. (Being behind the firewall at work does not help...) Would it be fair to assume that all of the edits introduced by this IP are not factual and should be reverted? Thank you. –FlyingAce 14:23, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    Thanks for spotting it. This is a long term vandal previously and currently blocked many times,. I've previously protected virtually of the articles related to Critics' Choice Awards, Kids' Choice Awards, Annie Awards and MTV Movie Awards. It also tends to wander into Golden Globe Awards and some others. Moar protection may be required. -- zzuuzz 14:25, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    I should probably write an LTA page about this vandal, unless anyone knows of one. Here's a selection of previous IPs:

    They also use the same notorious blocked T-Mobile ranges as several other banned users. Otherwise I'm out of range blocks. So, if they return there's a choice of semi-protecting a few hundred pages or an edit filter. As for the articles, if anyone wants to check for recent changes, there's potentially any of the awards pages on the following lists:

    (ping to a couple of possibly interested editors: 123) -- zzuuzz 17:55, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    Any spare eyeballs left? (Collect them, and trade with your friends!~!)

    Sea Bright, New Jersey. This would ordinarily just be an RSN, but one of the other writers is continually reverting to a source he either wrote himself, and then sourced to it when it was was borrowed intact, or directly plagiarized himself. (Nearly identical, right down to the same spelling error. Details on the talk page.) I'd appreciate some thoughts on the page; to me, the plagiarization or self-sourcing is a real problem. Anmccaff (talk) 17:14, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    On my way. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 17:21, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    • On no less than seven occasions over the past week, Anmccaff has removed reliably sourced content from the article, claiming that sources from the Borough of Sea Bright, The New York Times, the State of New Jersey and United States Government are all unreliable:
    1. May 2,
    2. May 2,
    3. May 3,
    4. May 5,
    5. May 7,
    6. May 7 and
    7. May 9.
    As mentioned already, this page appears to be based on self-sourcing or plagiarism. You have cited as a reference something probably derived from your own Wiki edit, but, if not, that you lifted outright unsourced...i.e. plagiarized. That's a bad thing. The NYT source appears, frankly, to be taken directly from wiki and word-smithed; the order of the assertions it makes is exactly the same. Again, as mentioned above, there's a real question whether these -are- reliable sources; local governments and amateur historians (and some real ones, truth be told) are notorious for vectoring local folklore as fact, and real estate sections seldom have the heft of the papers they are attached to...but, as I said, that's more for RSN, and later. Anmccaff (talk) 17:48, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    As mentioned above, it's apparent that you believe that you have privileged access to "truth", able to determine that the Borough of Sea Bright, the LDS Ensign magazine and The New York Times are all false, but a reporter from the Asbury Park Press is unquestionably true. Alansohn (talk) 17:52, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Umm, no. As I said, that's a matter for RSN. What is a matter for here is using a reference which either you had to know was based on Wiki since you wrote it yourself, or lifting a big chunk of words intact, right down to a misspelling, without crediting them..i.e. "plagiarism." Anmccaff (talk) 18:02, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Persistently removing sourced content is vandalism No, it's not. Full stop. Vandalism is "....editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a 💕, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge." Emphasis in original.
    Also, the claims of plagiarism seem pretty well evinced, to me. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:27, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    Legal threat at Chloe Khan?

    Does this amount to a legal threat? It's in the edit summary: "Removed lies and false information . IPSO have ruled against these in the court of law and legal team will be involved if this defamation , abuse and trolling continues ." I've already warned about the content removal. Kendall-K1 (talk) 17:41, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    Yes, but DOLT may need to be invoked. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 19:05, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    This is so stale. It was done 5 days ago and the last edit by that IP was 3 days ago. Any block at this point is pointless. ~ GB fan 20:15, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Yes, WP:DOLT should be considered, and there's a possible WP:UNDUE problem because the article is so short. Unfortunately communication with the person that left the obvious legal threat is close to impossible, as it's obvious they are on a frequently changing dynamic IP and the report is stale. I've not checked the sources to confirm this, but WP:BLPCRIME may apply. Is this a case where WP:BLP1E should be used as a basis to delete the article? I'm not certain of that (are the other things properly notable?), just want to float that idea. If anyone encounters the same while the IP is still active, they should be pointed to Misplaced Pages:Contact us - Subjects, and encouraged to privately email info-en-q@wikimedia.org, to enable proper discussion of their concerns (assuming this thread does not make the issue moot). Note that IPSO have no power to "rule … in the court of law", and IPSO decisions are probably not binding on WP / WMF (but don't just completely ignore them). Murph9000 (talk) 01:12, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
    Thanks for the pointers to DOLT and BLPCRIME. The article does make me uneasy on BLP grounds, as it's sourced to what look to me (as a current US resident not familiar with UK media) like gutter tabloids. Any help would be appreciated. Maybe I should take this to BLPN? Kendall-K1 (talk) 01:38, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
    I've made a couple of small cuts to the content on the basis of WP:BLPCRIME policy. I'll admit I didn't do more than quickly skim some of the sources (the general subject matter is really something I'm very much not interested in), but those particular bits seemed questionable under policy (and safer to remove unless clearly appropriate for inclusion). If I'm wrong and they were properly supported by sources, so be it, and that can be established on the article's talk page. Legal threats are a valid concern for AN/I. BLPN is certainly appropriate for overall BLP issues, but the thread is open here now. Murph9000 (talk) 01:49, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

    Obvious sock needs to be blocked to stop further disruption

    92.24.190.35 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is an obvious sock of Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Shingling334: same edits (claiming that everything is Turkish) on the same articles (about Mediterranean food), same ISP (Talk Talk) and same geolocation (Ipswich, Suffolk, UK) as countless previous IP socks. I have reveported it at WP:AIV but nothing has happened there. - Tom | Thomas.W 21:27, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

    • Blocked for 72 hours. This IP is very obvious, but it's still better to file at SPI. We can build a case for a range block if we know what we're looking at. Ivanvector (/Edits) 21:36, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
      • @Ivanvector: There's no way to range block them, they have access to virtually all IPs in 92.24.* and 92.29.*, so the collateral damage would be enormous. - Tom | Thomas.W
    If they are consistently using discrete ranges within the larger range, then we place targeted blocks on those ranges. In order to determine if that's possible, a list of IPs used would be helpful. --Jezebel's Ponyo 21:41, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    It looks to me as though the 92.24 range might be as narrow as a /20, but we don't have a lot of data points to go on, even less for the other ranges. Even if the reports don't go to SPI, it's useful to keep track of the IPs that this troll has used if you or someone else wants to put in the time. There's one vandal I've been tracking for a few months at User:Ivanvector/Serbian Army vandal, for example. Ivanvector (/Edits) 21:48, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Actually, it turns out I did this analysis already (). The common ranges are 92.24.176.0/20, 92.28.240.0/20, and 92.29.112.0/20. Ivanvector (/Edits) 21:57, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
    Thanks Ivanvector. I've blocked the 92.24.176.0/20 and 92.28.240.0/20 ranges for two weeks (I don't feel comfortable blocking for longer due to collateral). 92.29.112.0/20 seems to be used less frequently, so I've left it for now. We can revisit that block should the disruption migrate to that range. Hopefully this provides this involved with some relief. Perhaps an edit filter could be cobbled together in the meantime?--Jezebel's Ponyo 22:13, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
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