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• Archive 1
• Archive 2 (?? - 22:21, 24 December 2005 (UTC))
• Archive 3 (24 Dec 2005 - 30 Jan 2006)
• Archive 4 (31 Jan 2006 - 22 Feb 2006) -- Important discussions on neutrality and accuracy disputes.
• Archive 5
• Archive 6
• Archive 7

Removal of text by Heja helweda

According to a recent article from Slate, "Most of the freedoms Turkish Kurds have been eager to spill blood over have been available in Iran for years; Iran constitutionally recognizes the Kurds' language and minority ethnic status, and there is no taboo against speaking Kurdish in public."

On January 3, 2006 Nazanin Mahabad Fatehi, an 18 year old Kurdish girl from Karaj, was sentenced to death for murder by a criminal court of the Islamic Republic of Iran for stabbing a man who she claims tried to rape her and her fifteen year old niece when she was 17. As Nazanin has claimed that she only acted in self-defense, critics have pointed out that in another country she might be acquitted or receive only a short prison sentence. Iran also has a young age of eligibility for the death penalty - 15 years for males, and 9 for females. There has been a great level of international protest at this possible action of execution by the Iranian authorities.

I am putting these here in case Heja decides to remove again. It is especially incredible that she claims "Not every personal incident or death sentence is worthy of mention" when in fact Nazanin's case is even more well known in the world than Qaderi! She is probably the most well known Kurdish girl in recent times because of the ridiculous death sentence imposed on her by the mullah courts. But then again Nazanin is also a Shia Kurd so maybe that explains the removal. That is typical. Khorshid 23:35, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Please! I have nothing against your paragraph.

1) My objection was just that the article was already too long. Perhaps you have noticed the 32 KB warning every time we try to edit the article.

2) How can I be against Shia Kurds? while I am using Mehrdad Izady works as one of the main references, and just in case you do not know, he is Lak from Krmashan region, and I have added lots of stuff to the Kermanshah page, when some users were doing their best to hide its Kurdish character.

3) More than 10,000 Kurds were mudered by the Revolutionary Guards during the period 1979-1983, should we mention all of them by name, creating a useless list?

4) I am not very much in favor of keeping Shwane section either, since it takes lots of space which can be dedicated to better material from research papers.

5) As a final point, Slate is neither academic nor even reputable as a source. If you want to underline the loyalty of Kermanshahi Kurds (or all Iranian Kurds for that matter) to Iran, then come up with better sources please.Heja Helweda 00:45, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Heja Helweda 00:45, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Immanuel Velikovsky

We cite Immanuel Velikovsky in support of a point in the article. Since his work is rejected by scholarship as based on dubious theories, we should find another source to back this point. Any suggestions? --CTSWyneken 00:26, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely nonscientific, political article!

The lack of references to serious, academic, reckognised books, articles and journals gives you a presentiment for the article's character. This article is not scientific at all. It contains so many mistakes that I am not even going to try to put things right. I can remember how the Kurds first tried to link themselves to the Median people of Iran, after they had claimed to be Assyrians, but after no serious historian supported that claim, now they are going even further back to the Hurrites. Well, the Hurrites were not even an Indo-European people (or at least did not speak an IE language). So what is next - Atlantis? First of all, the word "the Kurds" does not describe an ethnically, liguistically or whatsoever-ly associated people. It merely describes an identity that exists a bit more than 700 years, maybe 900. Before that, the people in today's Kurdistan had different identities, as they do today by the way, or do you seriously believe that Kermanshahis and Laks consider themselves the same as people from K.Maras and Malatya? The Iranian and many Iraqi Kurds are different than the Turkish ones as regards ethnicity, language and culture. Even the Turkish Kurds are a heavily diverse people. Zazaki, Kermanshahi, Laki etc. are not Kurdish languages, AND SO ON...

Somehow, I cannot get around the feeling that the author of this article has an rabid antipathy for Iranians (i.e. Persians, to be more specific). Unfortunately, I am witnessing a process of the Kurds copying the Turkish method of inventing their own history from a political point of view. What a pity. --84.226.45.78 05:56, 6 August 2006 (UTC)Dr Heinrich Westfal, Bonn

Probably you have not heard of the Battle of Ardashir I with Kurds in the 3rd century? (BTW near Kermanshah), which is recorded in the Pahlavi book The Book of Deeds of Arashir Papagan. Please take a look at the History of the Kurds to see that the term Kurd has been in use at least since 3rd century CE. So this term is not 900 years old, but around 1800 years old.Heja Helweda 00:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

It's amazing how the issues in this article never seem to get resolved. Everytime someone finds something they find offensive, they yell "Anti-Turkish", "Anti-Iranian", "Pro-Kurd", "Pan-Iranianism", "Anti-Kurd", or someother POV related comment. This article, though still having issues, is well written compared to some of the other Ethnic group articles I've seen. Achievements and mistakes are mentioned, dates, and an attempt has been made to cite sources. And please people, there are millions of Kurds, and not all of them are editing this article, so don't talk about "them" editing this article. It's a shame to see ultra-nationalists trying to go on the internets and spread their beliefs (Not just Kurds, I can see plenty of other edits here that were spurred by others for violating their beliefs and pride). I know I don't have much power here, I'm just sick of coming to this page, and seeing this stuff get "disputed", where all this effort could go for other articles in need of repair. Oh, and I guess I'll have the guys to put my signature up, and not hide behind false names and Ip's. --MercZ 02:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Human Rights Watch

I would caution the editors of this page from relying exclusively on Human Rights Watch as a source on the civil war in Turkey. Though a commendable organization, HRW focuses exclusively on the shortcomings of governments, and will thus provide ample material on Turkish guilt, but none on the atrocities of the PKK. I think any intelligent person would understand that the PKK shares responsibility for the displacement of Kurds from their home villages. Heja Helweda introduces, in my opinion, an unconscionably Turcophobe view, when he asserts that Turkish security sources bear sole responsibility for the population displacement. --Anthon.Eff 19:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not asserting anything, the info. is given by HRW. If you see shortcomings in their policies, contact HRW please, and let them know about your concerns.Heja Helweda 00:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I have no problem with HRW. They do what they do very well. The problem is when one assumes that HRW is providing a complete picture of events in Turkey. The role of HRW is to criticize governments--not to criticize terrorist groups. HRW will therefore not discuss the PKK's responsibility for depopulated villages, but will discuss the responsibility of the Turkish state. If you are interested in presenting a NPOV in this article, you must also incorporate some sources bearing on the PKK role in depopulation. --Anthon.Eff 19:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Exaggerated

This page is not objective, even the population figures. The references does not rely on reliable sources. For example, about the population of kurds in turkey, www.world-gazetteer.com is given as a source. The total population of turkey is about 73m (2005 estimates). Considering te figures given in the article this means 30 percent of the population of turkey is kurds which is obviously wrong. This page is just seving as a kurdish propaganda rather than giving an information about the kurds. At the end, the editors of this article would say that there is no Turks in turkey, only kurds. If you click on the references givens, you'll see that the information given is not based on relevent sources, but the speculative ones.

Here is a estimate from the German government: The German government based on provincial statistics estimated that in 1997 there was at least 18 million Kurds in Turkey. Perhaps there is other points in the article you may disagree with, but this one is well sourced by the German government and it is the most reliable estimate I have seen since it takes into account provincial statistics. The 18 million also does not take into account Zazas (who are traditionaly identified as Kurds) and also the growth between 1997 and 2006. So the 22 million estimate is also factual. --alidoostzadeh 08:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The reference given by alidoostzadeh above (related with the German government statistics) is not in English (even not in Latin alphabet) for this reason i cannot read it. You should either give a source in English or translate it to English. Even the latin alphabet is enough cause we are concerning the numbers here, we could guess what is about, or check the tables. However, alidoostzadeh put something we could not read. Furthermore, this source is from a commercial web site. Please, give official references (internationally recognized journals, organizations, factbooks,...) available from official sites. How can we sure that the source is not the fake one? E104421 12:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi the document is from the German government parliment member , but translated to Persian. You have a good point that how can we be sure that the source is not fake. Very legitimate. But here is another site that has it: . Please check the last page (pg 98) for the actual source with the actual ISBN and ISSN number. The parlamentarian Amke Dieter-scheuer is also real and the same article is referenced here in a Turkish government website. Unless you suspect the translation to be wrong, then I do not see any problem with the source since it is an estimate based on provincial statistics. --alidoostzadeh 20:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure the document would be an excellent source for the Persian, Tajik, Dari, etc. Misplaced Pages, but it really isn't suitable here in the English Misplaced Pages. If the facts presented in the document are indeed widely known among authorities, it should not be a problem to find a good source in English. --Anthon.Eff 01:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The original document is in German and has IBSN and ISSN numbers and is referred to in a Turkish government website. Unless you think the Persian translation is wrong (which I do not believe so), I do not see any problem with that estimate since it i actually based on provincial statistics. I usually do not believe in many statistics, but this one is based on provincial data which is accurate. I think someone that knows German can find it. Here are some sites that mentions the article as well: . The author and think thank that wrote the article believe that in 1997 there were more than 18 million Kurds in Turkey (and I am not sure if they have considered Zazas as separate group or not). --alidoostzadeh 04:14, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Forget about the population figures for now. That is the least of this articles problems! Khorshid 06:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I still do not understand why the user alidoostzadeh is always pushing the sources other than English. I strongly agree with the user Anthon.Eff that it is possible to find a reliable source in English (especially for this case, statistics). I checked the sources given, but they just increased my suspicion, cause the links do not target the relevent references. Furthermore, the user alidoostzadeh gives references to a parliament member. As i stated above, the references should be from internationally recognized publications or organizations (most of them have English versions). A single German parliament member's report does not make it a reliable one. In addition, the user alidoostzadeh tries to support this POV by giving references to other unofficial ones. For this reason, this user alidoostzadeh seems to me pushing his POV by forwarding sources other than English (also not even in Latin) all the time, cause we cannot understand what's written there. His sources are based on beliefs, guesses, opinions, ... that cannot be considered scientific. Rahter than providing us just a single reliable source or even the translation of it, he's just pushing the same POV fork "...18 million kurds in turkey..." all the time, in order to convince us and to stop discussion. What should we do? Sorry, alidoostzadeh, we cannot accept the sources that we could not read. E104421 08:15, 28 September 2006 (UTC)