Talk:Historical background of the New Testament

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A note to the curious

This is quite possibly the fastest growing talk page in Misplaced Pages. The archives from the last month total at least 200k of discussion. Unless you have a day to spare, you are advised to read the (disputed) summary of events so far. If you have less than half a day to spare, you are advised to ignore the summary and skip to the last 2 or 3 sections.

CheeseDreams 22:22, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Archives

Archive 1 has been lost.

It contained discussion prior to the big dispute. We do not know where it is.

/Archive 2 -- (Amgine 20:59, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC))

votes; son of man; 10 key issues in dispute; the meaning of messiah

/Archive 3 -- (Amgine 00:31, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC))

votes; debate over "new messiah" paragraphs, meaning of messiah

/Archive 4 -- (CheeseDreams 20:29, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC))

FT2's version vs. SLR's version; due process

/Archive 5 -- CheeseDreams 21:35, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

increasingly verbose discussion of outstanding issues

/Archive 6 --CheeseDreams 22:36, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

summaries of the above; meta-debate about this talk page

/Archive 7 -- surrealistically, summaries of archives

Please be aware that Archive 7 is infact predominantly a duplicate of archive 6 caused by an editor acting too hastily to suppress information. CheeseDreams

Discussion of Summary

This page, at the time of writing is pushing 131K

This is despite the fact that 5 sections of the page are simply summaries.

In order to reduce the page size, and improve readability, this section summarises the summaries themselves.

In addition it summarises a further summary of summaries and the disputes made of that, and the disputes about the disputes, together with an off-topic discussion.

The original text this summary replaces can be viewed at archive 6. Archive 6 contains the summaries that this replaces NOT the text that the summaries themselves replace, these can be viewed at archives 2-5.

It is not in chronological order, but instead ordered by topic for ease of viewing

This summary was made by CheeseDreams, who asserts that in their opinion it is NPOV. This undoubtably will be disputed.

Any disputed paragraphs or sentences, or locations where others demand additions into the summary are marked (0) where this marking corresponds to the section about the dispute which follows after the summary.

The article ( a summary exclusive to Misplaced Pages by the author CheeseDreams )

Terminology

The area should be called "Palestine" or something similar (4 votes against 2)

is it more important that Roman Palestine did not exist at the time in question
or is it more important that Palestine is the only term covering the whole area

The area should be referred to as "Roman Palestine" (7 votes against 1)

"pharisees were considered living saints" is either not accurate or inapropriate best wording (4 votes)

"at the time of Christ" is an inappropriate phrase (1 vote against 1)
"at this time" is an acceptable phrase to replace "at the time of Christ" (7 votes against none)

dispute on translation of "Jonathan" and "John"

"Yonatan" is "Jonathan"
"Yohanan" is "John"
"Yohanan" is "Jonathan"
King David's associate "Jonathan" is "Yohanan" in Hebrew
The New Testament is (koine) Greek

Methodology

dispute on the matter of prime sources

Mentioning the Gospels as prime historic source is NPOV
Biblical and western historians exclusively should be cited
Citing makes the text unapproachable to a general reader
The Gospels are not prime historic source for this perion
Citations should (if they are going to appear at all) not just be from Christians or the west.
Many people find the historiography of the gospels as highly dubious
There are only 3 points of view: Christians, skeptics, critical scholars
The Mishnah was not really edited until 200AD
There are Jews, Muslims, Talmud Scholars, historians, archaeologists, and many others
We must explain how historiography works.
There are too many citations
The Mishnah existed in oral form before 200AD

Jesus and the Article(s)

This article should not be merged with Jesus and textual evidence or Historicity of Jesus (general consensus vs. 1 objection)

The title should not be changed into The historical Jesus (4 votes against 1)

"the article, is neither about Christianity nor religion ...(it)... is about the culture and events..." (5 votes against 2)

Unopposed statement by Pedant

This article is about what its title says it is. ... It is only about the history and culture of the region as it bears on the (real or imaginary) person: Jesus, the central figure in Christian Theology. Anything that conflicts ... does not belong in THIS article.

This article should mention Jesus at least a non-zero amount (1st vote - 5 votes against 2) (2nd vote - 2 votes against 2)

This article is more background to 1st Century Roman Palestine than cross-referenced summary of Jesus' life (1st vote - 2 votes against 1) (2nd vote - 2 votes against 3)

Is this article the background to 1st Century Roman Palestine with asides if something is needed to understand Jesus' life
Is this article summarising Jesus' life, and cross referencing it to historical and cultural information about 1st Century Roman Palestine

Mild support for specific asides about things that happened to Jesus (vote-1: 3 votes against 2) (vote-2:3 votes against 3) (vote-3: 4 votes against 1 (+1 both sides))

Should the article be split to make this a non-issue

The article should not be split into "background" and "Jesus in it" (general consensus against 1 vote)

is it better to have 2 articles

one mainly avoiding Jesus in 1st century Palestine and discussing background instead (keeping the title)
one predominantly about Jesus in 1st century Palestine and mildly the background (The historical Jesus )

or a single article including both

Structure of the article

This article should not just be a historical narrative (majority consensus, though with a large minority disputing it)

The article should be an historical narrative with asides
The article should be structured into topics such as Political situation (regional rulers, high priests, notable militaristic action), Religious organizations (major schools, prophets, messianic groups), Later developments (political control, emergence of more modern Judaism and Christianity)

discussion of historical narrative approach

1 dimensional
written as if Christianity is the climax of historical events, which is POV
style reflects only Christian views of what is important to discuss about the background
history and culture are entwined, seperation is a fallacy
far too much history
it reads better
it lacks material

discussion of topical approach

standard encyclopedia style
different aspects highlighted and discussed seperately
not orientated around Christian views of what is important
mass redundancy by seperating history and culture
no-scholars use this approach
many scholars use this approach
journalists consider this approach more approachable for the general reader
organised in line with the article's title which contains the words "Cultural and"

dispute on structure within the topical approach

"political situation" should be the same section as "religious organizations", "major schools", and "prophets"
"notable uprisings" and "messiahs" should be the same section
"political situation" means who is in charge
putting "notable uprisings" and "messiahs" together only makes sense as an essay, not an encyclopedia
"uprisings" are politics not religion
Although seperating politics and religion is a modern thing, so are the audience of the encyclopedia

Introductary Paragraphs

"According to most Christians, Jesus lived in the first century in Judea" is POV not NPOV (3 votes against 1)

Introduction should comment that some dispute historicity (5 votes against 1)

Should the article (as its starting point)

The article should assume Jesus exists as its starting point
The article should not make assumption of historicity or non-historicity

Agreement that the basis for the first paragraph should be (5 votes to 2 (proposal A) to 1 (proposal B)): "Jesus is held to have lived in the first century in Judea. Without addressing Jesus existence as an actual historic figure, this article discusses the cultural and political forces active at that time. see: Historicity of Jesus for information relating to the existence of Jesus as a historical figure."

The intro mentioned above makes clear that the existence of Jesus is not being asserted (8 votes against 1 digression)

The 1st and 2nd introductory sentences should be recast (input from 6 persons): The main record of the life of Jesus are the Gospels, in the Christian New Testament. These sources place Jesus in what became Roman Palestine (modern Israel and Palestine) during the early 1st century.

The 3rd sentence should become (2 votes against 1): The article Historicity of Jesus covers debates regarding the existence of Jesus, but if so then it is agreed by most Christians and academics who hold this view that it is necessary to understand the cultural and historical background in which Jesus is thought to have lived.

The 4th sentence should become (general consensus): This was a volatile period marked by cultural and political dilemmas. Out of the Roman occupation of Palestine sprang two of the modern world's religions: Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism.

subsequent discussion after User X, without being requested, produced a competing version

The non-User-X version is balanced, neutral, and appropriate
User X (and supporters) thinks their version is better
User X thinks their version should absorb the other

Prior History of Palestine

dispute over the existance of sacrifice

Stating that in most ancient near-eastern societies sacrifice was the only worship is derogatory
Stating that in most ancient near-eastern societies sacrifice was the only worship is POV
Stating that in most ancient near-eastern societies sacrifice was the only worship is accurate
Stating that in most ancient near-eastern societies sacrifice was the only worship is a lie
Stating that in most ancient near-eastern societies sacrifice was the only worship is offensive

dispute over the validity of the claim of a "dual core"

Having a Temple, Torah, Priests, and Scribes, together with having a King ruling by divine right implies a "dual core"
Current "scholarship" implies there was not a "dual core"

dispute over the 1st and 2nd temple periods

There could be a better transition between the 1st and 2nd temple periods,
in the 1st and 2nd temple period, both Temple and Law were important.
There is no known source for the 1st Temple period which is not suspect of having political spin
Excessive detail about the "First Temple" Era and the "Second Temple" Era is irrelevant
It is not even known from non-Biblical sources if there was a 1st Temple period
There was discontinuity which should be stressed between the 1st and 2nd temple period
There needs to be detailed background to the background of Saducees, Pharisees, Temple, Monarchy, and Torah

Discussion of the Hasmonians

The Hasmonaeans claiming first the high priesthood (under Jonathan) and then the kingship (under Aristobulus I) should be mentioned
It is a little confusing to me to call the Hasmonean kingdom the second kingdom.
We can be clearer that the Pharisees developed under the Hasmoneans.

Herod's reign should be mentioned

It should explain who Antipater the Idumaean was
It should explain how Herod was Idumaean and a Jew simultaneously

Governance

dispute over Jewish reaction to Hellenism

Greeks thought circumcision was an abomination
Implications of the idea of a universal God are important
The Jews thought nakedness was an abomination
An emotional quote from Pearlman indicates how jews felt at the the time about Hellenism
Implications of the idea of a universal God are irrelevant
There was a split between hellenized and "traditional" Jews
Implications of Greek interest in Judaism are irrelevant
An unemotional quote from Cohen indicates how jews felt at the the time about Hellenism
The view that there was a split between hellinized and "traditional" Jews is anachronistic and simplistic.
Implications of Greek interest in Judaism are important

dispute over the nature of the region

The middle east was a "powderkeg" with religious aggression contained by secularity just like today
The middle east has never not been a "powderkeg"
The middle east forms the bridge between persia, greece, and egypt
The middle east's position between major empires, throughout history, inevitably gave it "powderkeg" status
The middle east was not a "powderkeg"

a discussion of the status of sedition is important

dispute over reasons for Jewish antaganism toward rome

The desire by Jews not to integrate was seen as an affront by Romans
A modern historian claims it is not true that the lack of desire to integrate was seen as an affront
Romans were tolerant of beliefs
Rome (and Greece) was not secular
Jews were more offended by taxes than Roman opinions on belief
By 1 CE, the Roman Empire was somewhat more corrupt than it had been
There should be a section about economy and class inequality
It is necessary to understand the Macabees to comprehend how Jews react to Rome
religious and cultural differences escalated into conflicts with secular governance by Rome
It is not true that early emporers thrived but later ones were cruel and murdered
By 1 CE, the Roman Empire was no more corrupt than it had ever been
Rome (and Greece) had a religious and cultural agenda
Early emporers thrived, later ones were cruel and murdered, which demonstrates that there was more corruption

Religious Groups

dispute over whether judaism always had two sides

There were always 2 sides to Judaism - temple vs. halakhah/prayer
Prayer is a form of temple worship
Halakha contains ritual
Halakha contains specifically prayer-related ritual
Prayer is independant to temple worship (which had to occur 3 times a year)
Temple worship (but not the temple) goes back to 1500-1300BC
Halakha goes back orally before it was written down

dispute over nature of the priesthood and pharisees

In Judaism, the priesthood was more administrative than acting as intermediary between Jews and God
The nature of the Pharisees changed over time
In Judaism, the priesthood was more acting as intermediary between Jews and God than administrative
The nature of the Pharisees remained relatively stable and constant

dispute over nature of the essenes, zealots, and lesser groups

There was a multi-party system with at least 4 large "schools of thought"
Essenes and Zealots only developed later
There was a two-party system (Sadducees vs. Pharisees) with minor additional factions
Essenes developed at virtually the same time as, or only shortly after, the Pharisees

Dispute about Militant Fundamentalists

The Sicarii rejected Roman rule but also rejected Jewish government.
The Sicarii were a fanatical underground militant wing of the Zealots
The primary target of the Sicarii were Jewish elites, not Romans.
The Sicarii were independant of the Zealots
We need to add more information about the Sicarii.

Other Messiahs

Other groups who believed in different Messiah figures should be mentioned (8 votes)

One (and only one) speaker opposed detailed listing of the known movements in this section

Contemporary understanding of the meaning of messiah should be included (general uncontested consensus)

It is important to state that kings and priests were anointed
It is unacceptable (and meaningless) to use the terms annointed king and annointed priest

Uncontested statement

In Judaism, "Messiah" means "annointed". It was the symbol of high office. There were two officers routinely annointed this way - a priest messiah, and a king messiah. The hope of a "messiah" to save them would usually have meant simply, some king or priest who would stand up to the romans or whoever was felt oppressing them at the time. The meaning of "Messiah" in christianity, that of a godhead, a unique being who would save them in the sense of salvation, was not part of Judaism, though it may have formed part of the hopes or mystic beliefs of some cults or splinter groups.

The phrase "Son of Man" is not always apocalyptic (1 vote (+3 informal) no other votes)

Undisputed statement by User:FT2

Many historians claim that Jesus himself did not claim to be a "messiah" in any way unlike other messiahs.

dispute over the meaning of "saviour of Israel"

there is no evidence anyone thought that a messiah would be a saviour of Israel
many expected to be saved from the judgement of God
the expectation of a messiah was the expectation of a saviour of Israel
many considered the Romans to be the judgement of God
the articles Mosiach and Messiah explain the understanding of the term

discussion of the paragraph on other messiahs

A compromise text was developed
One user (user X) produced an alternative proposal
A new compromise text is proposed taking into account elements of User X's proposal
User X disputes elements of the compromise text
User X proposes a 2nd alternative text
Some users dispute the willingness of User X to collaborate
A new compromise text is proposed taking into account discussions around User X's 2nd proposal
User X disputes elements of the compromise text and considers their own proposal superior
A new compromise text is proposed taking into account discussions around User X's comments
User X disputes elements of the compromise text
A new compromise text is proposed taking into account discussions around User X's comments
User X restates their intolerance of elements of the compromise text
User X restates their 2nd alternative text
A new compromise text is proposed taking into account suggestions from User X and others
The new text is voted on after "packing the house" has occurred.
The result of the vote is (2 supporting the compromise text, 5 against it)

dispute on Mandaeans and John the baptist

Mandaeans first came into existance in the 2nd/3rd centuries BC
There is no evidence that Mandaeans were followers of John the baptist
Mandaeans considered John the baptist a messiah
Mandaeans first came into existance in the 2nd/3rd centuries AD
Mandaeans were followers of John the baptist
John the baptist was Nazorean
Mandaean was a dialaect at this time
Mandaean is a modern synonym for Nazorean
Modern Mandaeans refer to themselves as Nazorean

dispute on divinity and the existance of other messiah's

first century messiahs and prophets never claimed they were divine
Josephus is not acceptable to cite
some first century messiahs and prophets claimed they were divine
Jesus did not claim he was divine
Josephus is acceptable to cite
Jesus did claim he was divine
Josephus states that the persons supposedly "messiah"s were actually thought to be prophets
the Jews had considerable law on false prophets
Josephus supports the idea that there were people claiming to be and thought to be "messiah"s

dispute over reaction of the jews to "other messiahs"

Sabbattai Lev (circa 1400) shows how Jews found "other messiahs" troublesome and offensive
Shabbatai Lev (circa 1600) does not shows how Jews found "other messiahs" troublesome and offensive
There is no evidence from the 1st century that Jews found non-mainstream beliefs troublesome
There is no evidence from the 1st century
According to historic record, as a group, Jews at the time were conservative
According to historic record, as a group, Jews at the time were sceptical of radical new interpretations
According to historic record, as a group, Jews at the time were disinterested in afterlife/salvation stories
According to historic record, as a group, Jews at the time were making many original claims
There was no "mainstream"
It is necessary to understand the Macabees to comprehend how Jews react to other Messiahs

Miscellaneous contemporarial details

dispute over the nature of the law

Jewish religious law was the main law of the land
Jewish religious law was mostly lenient
Jewish religious law was mostly legislative

dispute over significance of Jesus conversing in the Temple on the law

It was fairly standard that young people were able to converse on the law in the Temple
The evidence that young people would be expected to be able to converse on the law is rubbish
Jesus was remarkably unusual in being able to converse on the law in the Temple
The evidence that young people would be expected to be able to converse on the law is 100 years after Jesus

dispute over general demography of Jews at the time

"X% lived in towns, Y% in villages" is too demographic
most Jews at the time were hard working
in the circumstances of the age, there are not many "slackers" in village life
most Jews at the time were God fearing
there is no evidence that most Jews were hard working
there is no evidence that most Jews were God fearing
most Jews at the time were in villages
village people are less likely to be hellenised than city people

Development of later religion

This article should describe who followed the Pharisees (4 votes against 1, 1 abstention)
"Later forms of Judaism" followed the Pharisees rather than "Rabbinic Judaism" (1st vote-unresolved) (2nd vote - 3 votes against 1)

Discussion of the subsequent development of Christianity and how it connected to the gentiles belongs elsewhere not here (4 votes against 1 (+1 for a brief mention))

FT2s version of the paragraph discussing how christianity emerged is preferred (general consensus)

Originally the intent was to preach to the Jews. Some but not all requirements were removed, as it was felt that the new emphasis was on faith and not detailed laws. Thus there were 'Jewish Christians', Jews who believed in Christ Messiah. When the Jews as a community rejected this, the Christian message was taken to the gentiles instead. To make it palatable, and draw a line separating them from the Jews (who were by now becoming politically dangerous associates) many more of the restrictive laws were removed and the emphasis was shifted. The message that reached the gentiles was therefore a more universal one, in the sense that it was easier to digest, its appeal was more emotional than legalistic, and it did not contain many of the practices beliefs and rituals by which the Jews kept themselves separate from others.

Anything later than bar Kochba is irrelevant

Is it important that the manner in which christianity emerged indicates the historiography of the Gospels

The non-Jewishness of Christianity

dispute over the reaction of Rome to Jews and vice versa

The Jewish revolt was about seeking political and religious freedom vs. Romans.
The Jewish revolt was about poverty in the peasentry vs. the elite.
Jews at the time were under intense pressure from Rome
The Macabbee revolt indicates that Jews violently do not like their sense of identity threatened
As a group, Jews at the time tended to polarise under pressure.
even after Bar Kochba, Romans treated Jews better than Christians.
As a group, Jews at the time tended to be protective of their national identity
The ideas of how Romans treated early Christians is predominantly later Christian propaganda

dispute over reasons for christianity's non-jewishness

The jews were becoming politically dangerous due to rebellion against Rome
Christians deliberately shifted away from Jewish law to make themselves disassociated with the Jews
Christianity is easier to digest
Christianity being easier to digest is POV

dispute over importance of restrictiveness of some Jewish practises

Judaism's restrictive practices prevented non-Jews from converting to it or similar religion
Jews never believed non-Jews should obey Jewish law
Many non-Jews turned to religions with restrictive practices
it is logical that dropping more Jewish traditions made Christian beliefs more palatable
it is not logical that dropping more Jewish traditions should make Christian beliefs more palatable
Replacing halakhah by pure faith instantly made Christianity more acceptable to non-Jews
a teacher observing halakhah does not mean students will reject lessons in algebra
a train going at 100 mph does not mean that the driver had sausages for breakfast

dispute over reasons for early christianity to be amongst the gentiles

Early Christians failed to convince the Jews thus tried elsewhere
Early Christians were never part of Judaism
Early Christians failed to convince the Jews thus felt rejected
The Ebionites are those whose Christianity descended from the apostles themselves in person
The Ebionites are a strange Jewish sect, happening to be in Jerusalem, who misinterpreted Christianity
The Ebionites are not similar to early Christians, but very similar to Jews

dispute over early christians and orthodoxy

The early Christians were often at odds with groups they considered heretical
Historians think there was no disputation
Historians think there was no orthodoxy
Historians think the situation was "Iranaeus and Co." vs. "Anyone who disagreed with Iranaeus and Co."

The editors ( a summary exclusive to Misplaced Pages by the author CheeseDreams )

Consensus and inconsensuality

early discussions

Early discussions focused on achieving consensus, and included voting
A visible solution was reached on most of the issues
A version for discussion was drafted at a user talk page
Discussions were had
Submissions were made with regard to compromise
The article was unlocked
A draft of the changes was made on the article
A request for 48 hours non-editing to discuss the article was made
Most users respected the request

reversion war

User Y violated the request, rewriting the article substantially
User Y's version predominantly went against the consensus and the voting
User Z reverted user Y's version to the version about which a 48 hour non-edit was requested
User Y reverted it back to their version
User Z insisted on the concensus version being restored
User Y reverted it back
User Z reverted it once more
User Y's associates reverted it to User Y's version
User Z restored the discussion version
The revert war continued
The article was locked in the User Y state.

disputed behaviour

it is acceptable to make some changes
it is unacceptable to make large changes for this article in that state
it is fundamentally important to ask for a pause in editing to prevent edit wars
it is acceptable to make major changes to the article when it is so contested
Slrubenstein has the right to revert from FT2s version although the opposite is not true
if a page is not protected, editors have a right to work on it
the way forward is discussion on talk pages
it is inappropriate to ask for a pause in editing for the purpose of discussion
respect and decency demand that though one has rights, one should sometimes abstain from them
Saying one editor can revert, but the other editor cannot, is hypocrisy

the resulting 2 versions

The people User X invited to this page all support his version
3 users (none of whom invited the other) do not support User X's version
The value of a split depends on the nature of the articles
User X sarcastically suggests splitting the article
Splitting the versions into two articles will solve this problem
User X's version is NPOV
User X refuses not to edit both articles to how they think it should be
User X admits User X will never tolerate the other version
User X's version is POV not NPOV
The not-User-X version is complicated
The not-User-X version complies more than satisfies journalistic standards for readability
User X's version is appallingly unreadable
User X's version is exquisite

Issues with users on this talk page

"Packing the house" occurred between the sets of voting

It is a more important fact that Gerrymandering is unethical
It is a more important fact that Gerrymandering is currently allowed

Mediation was formally requested

It became apparant that Slrubenstein, Amgine, and CheeseDreams should formally request mediation between them (which has is now occurring)

FT2 as a mediator

At an early stage FT2 arrived and behaved in the manner of a mediator
Slrubenstein disputes that FT2 was ever treated as a mediator
Slrubenstein and JDG think that FT2 is agenda driven
Wesley, Amgine, CheeseDreams, think that FT2 is fair

Worth of scholarship

The lack of academic qualification does not mean one is unable to speak truth
Academic qualification does not mean one is always right
Amgine has secured access to ATLA.

User X thinks User X's opponents

Have done little or no research
Are mistaken and ignorant about many things
Write text riddled with the most ignorant of errors
Add material that has no basis in fact
Rely on votes about substance which is inappropriate
Do not rely on the historical record, unlike User X
Make things up
Use speculative arguments
Are ignorant of history
Have specious reasoning
Use inappropriate sources such as Google
Has innacurate and ignorant research unlike User X
Have no business working on this article as they do not trust User X's argument

User X's opponents think that User X(not all views held by all opponents)

Is committing hypocrisy
Has double standards - one for themselves, the other for opponents
Is unwilling to listen to criticism resulting from votes
Ignores valid arguments resorting to Ad Hominem such as "you are ignorant of history" and "your reasoning is specious and ignorant" and "that seems speculative" rather than producing a proper argument.
Thinks his view is fundamentally correct, and refuses to consider the possibility of inaccuracy
Resorts to criticising sources when they produce citable evidence against his case in an attempt to dismiss it
Have suspect accuracy of research based on User X's claim that "most historians do not think Hinduism existed before the 18th century"
Has admitted to only using 5/6 sources

Mud-slinging occurred

User X and User X's supporters stated to some of the people they see as opposed to them that

They are not acting in good faith
They are nuts
They are masturbating User X
They use silly argument
They are ignorant
They are all partisan and resent criticism
Their reasoning is specious and ignorant.
They are incompetent at using Misplaced Pages talk pages properly
Their stance is unreasonable
Their stance is obstructing User X
They are unscholarly and fringe (unlike User X)
Their reasoning is smelly poor quality fish
They are racist
They are rude
They start revert wars
They are gay atheists
They should be banned

Those who were not User X or User X's supporters stated of User X and of some of User X's supporters that

Some people think User X is not acting in good faith
User X is disrespectful
User X is uncivil
User X uses personal attacks
User X is a hypocrit
User X has no interest in consensus
User X is vain and arrogant
User X's case is so weak that he feels the need to round up supporters from elsewhere in order to win discussions
Some of User X's supporters threatened a revert war
Some of User X's supporters were referred to as Darling
Some of User X's supporters are neither neutral nor reasonable
Some of User X's supporters are crassly aggressive
Some of User X's supporters stated they would ignore the result of this discussion and revert the article to User X's version

Dispute of summary

CheeseDream's version of the disputed area of the summary

(1) -

??????'s version of the disputed area of the summary

(1) -

Original text (as per archive 6) of the disputed area of the summary

(1) -

This verges on too much

CheeseDreams summarized what I wrote above thusly:

Slrubenstein disputes translating "Yohanan" as "Jonathan" rather than "John". FT2 points out how David's associate "Jonathan" is "Yohanan" in Hebrew, to which Wesley states that the New Testament is Greek. Slrubenstein states that "Yonatan" is "Jonathan" and "Yohanan" is "John". Slrubenstein states that FT2 is a nut, and questions whether FT2 is masturbating Slrubenstein.

First, it is a compelte misrepresentation of my point; I do not claim that Jonathan is Yohanan. Second, the link seems obnoxious and uncalled for. Slrubenstein

I wondered about that as well, but you did write "Ar eyou yanking my chain?....what you are saying here is a charicature of a nut" User:Tigermoon 11:24, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Yanking my chain" means, toying with me in order to waste my time and make me angry; it does not mean that he his stoking my penis with the intention of bringing me to orgasm. If CD doesn't understand the idiomatic expression, surely it was clear from context. Slrubenstein

And Ive just found this at the same place, also written by you "Yonatan is represented in English as Jonathan. Yohanan is represented in English as John." User:Tigermoon 12:29, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this up -- as you make clear, I had explained to FT2 what his mistake was, and corrected him, long before he (finally) did his research. Slrubenstein

My research is not as shoddy as SIrubenstein has at times freely claimed. Specifically:

dictionary.com: "John - Middle English, from Old French Jehan, from Late Latin Ioannes, Iohannes, from Greek Ioannes, from Hebrew yôhanan, 'Yahweh has been gracious'..."
Nomenology Project: "John - DERIVATION: English, from the Hebrew name, Johanan, meaning, 'God is gracious.' Found in the New Testament as the name of John the Baptist."
Emtymology and History of Biblical 1st names: "JOHN - m English, Biblical English form of Johannes, which was the Latin form of the Greek name Ioannes, itself derived from the Hebrew name Yochanan meaning 'YAHWEH is gracious'..."

Thats the derivation of "John". Next time, a little trust and respectful talk beforehand would be in order.

Next time, a little research before you write in an article would be in order. Then, you may earn some trust. Slrubenstein

More to the point, not making a mountain over a single minor tiny item would also be in order. This is what has characterised the problem with this article all the way - no sense of proportion. The appropriate "fix" would have been to (a) check it yourself, or (b) just edit the one word you didnt think right. Not make a huge deal of it. I think this happens to be a good example why this article is in dispute. FT2 07:52, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

FT2 I appreciate that you have finally done some research, and your willingness to accept that John is Yochanan. I wish you had done this research before writing your version of the article. You are right -- in general -- that rather than make a big deal out of such mistakes editors should simply fix them. But you are disingenuous. I explained why this was an error and you mocked me. I wish you did your research then. Be that as it may, you have finally odne reseach, it is not shoddy, and I applaud your effort. But to the reall matter at hand: I didn't think I was making a big deal about this one point. Rather, I was listing this one point along with a dozen or more points that showed sloppy research or writing in your revision of my revision. Rather than go through each of these thirteen or fourteen problems in your version, I though it would just save a whole lot of time to revert to the earlier version, which was not plagued by this and so many other errors. Here is what it comes down to: I have done a lot of research on this period, and wrote a version that is to the best of my knowledge neutral (and which took into account virtually every single previous "vote" and discussion). It was clear to me that you had not done a lot of research. You say "check it yourself" and I say, well, let's do this before writing, it will save a lot of trouble. I did check such things before writing, but you did not. Why start with a very weak, error-prone version and spend a lot of time fixing it, when we can start with a relatively strong version and just improve it from there? Slrubenstein

fair points all of these. I think there was a difference, I wasnt aiming for perfect content - I was after 75% ok content. It had to be that way as so many people had added material. But poor factual information can be discussed, cited and fixed. I was after an approach and a broad view to get towards a consensus like "okay, so apart from these sloppy individual facts, and that occasional poor wording, basically we now have a direction to go forward from, and a version not written by either 'side'." I didnt think it was factually perfect, I was more interested to get reactions in general first. I figured simply saying "please leave it stand a while" would be enough, without a heavily detailed explanation. Hope that explains? FT2 18:07, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

FT2, I really don't question your intentions and if (in this specific instance) I said anything that questioned your intentions I apologize. Your intentions aside, I just felt there were so many errors and distortions in your version that it would be easier to go back to mine (which I must add was -- in my mind at least! -- built on your earlier work!). I understand that you did your best and did not claim it to be perfect. I just thought the previous version was better and made for a more practical continuation. Although I know your intentions were good, I do admit that it bothers me that you expected people to wait two days before editing work that you had not really researched, when you had just completely rewritten a draft for which I had spent considerable time researching. If anything, the principle should be that the more researched an article, the more time people allow themselves to think about it before editing; the less researched an article, the less time people allow themselves to think about it before editing. Slrubenstein

Suggestions for next set of revisions

Sooner or later the article will be unblocked. Here are some suggestions for the next round of revisions. SOme are my own, others come out of others' comments on the talk-page.. Slrubenstein

Didn't you think CheeseDreams summarised the above satisfactorially? (copied below) Tigermoon 12:05, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't think it should be summarized, which is why I wrote "summarized prematurely." These comments are not about what has happened, but what should happen. Slrubenstein

Format:

2.4.1 is misnamed. I suggest renaming it to "Kings, Procurators, and the Sanhedron" OR "Local Governance under Roman Occupation"
2.5, on the Sicarii etc, should be made 2.4.4
2.5.1, on Jesus in this context, should be simply 2.5

Content: People have raised issues about the introductory paragraph. I still think FT2's is poorly written, but he was right to raise other issues in that section. I suggest that we revise this to introduce people to the historiography of the period. First, be clear that the Gospels are the major textual source for information about Jesus. This should help clear up NPOV issues because there is no endorsement of the theological status or claims of the Gospels, only recognition that they are an historical source of central importance to historians researching Jesus and the first century. Second, a clearer explanation of how historians (as opposed to theologians or clergy or religious people) read historical texts critically. Third, an explanation of how historians go outside of a text to look at its context, which means looking at other historical sources and archeological evidence.Slrubenstein

If you are going to distinguish between historians and religious people and discuss their methods, you should specify what sort of historians you mean. On the one hand, a number of religious people employ the same historical methods to which you seem to be referring; on the other hand, some historians don't, including just about all historians before the Enlightenment and probably some other historians today. Wesley 20:40, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Good point. I mean historians using critical methods. By the way, such historians may be religious -- they just exclude religious claims from their historical research. Crossan may be such an example. Slrubenstein

People have raised questions about the amount of historical content, and continuity. I too share concerns about excess, although sometimes this is in the service of accuracy. That said, I think that there could be a better transition between the first temple and second temple periods. This transition should stress one important continuity: in both, the Temple and the Law were important institutions. This continuity is an important issue because the status of the law and of the Temple were central issues for Rabbinic Judaism and early Christianity; Jesus was read as having taken certain stands on these institutions; we need a general context for understanding what kinds of stands Jesus was likely to have taken and what their significance would have been. It should also stress a discontinuity in "legitimation" -- in the Second Temple period there were questions about the legitimacy of the Temple, and, the Torah having been redacted, the Law emerged as an increasingly important institution (which again had consequences during Jesus' time)Slrubenstein

There can be more discussion of Herod's reign (including how it got started, with a reference to Antipater). But I think we need to connect this to bigger issues at the time, especially how Herod was an Idumean but also Jewish, in other words, there was a reworking of "Jewish" Identity during the Hellenistic period.Slrubenstein

Some people still seem confused about the different movements at the time. We can be clearer that the Pharisees developed during the Hasmonean period. I think we need to add more information about the so-called "Fourth movement," the Sicarii.Slrubenstein

Adding more information about the Sicarii (and Zealots) will address another misconception, that the major conflict was between Jews seeking political independence and religious freedom, and Romans. This was indeed one issue, but the Great Revolt (and thus, tensions throughout the first century) were between poor Jewish peasants and rich Jewish elites. The primary target of the Sicarii were Jewish elites, not Romans. They had an anarchic philosophy that rejected Roman rule but that also rejected Jewish government as well.Slrubenstein

The above sections call attention to various religio-political movements at the time of Jesus. I think another section providing more basic information on the economy of Judea and the Galilee, the degree of class inequalities, and maybe something on taxationl, would also help. This should come before or after sections 2.4.1-4

The account of Jesus in this context is currently synthetic and I believe a very reasonable summary of what most historians would agree to. Nevertheless, I think we can now incorporate more specific material on debates/different views among historians, specifically: Brandon's view of Jesus as a political revolutionary; Smith's view of Jesus as a magician; Vermes' view of Jesus as a Galilean charismatic; Sanders' view of Jesus as an eschatological prophet. Slrubenstein

Meta-issues: What is the article about?

Issues seem to be - yes the gospels are the main source about Jesus. Thats needed to be stated in the intro. But Jesus is not the main source of this article, and thats important. Neither the history, nor the culture, is predicated upon Jesus, and that is a central issue for this article. Even matters impinging upon jesus and the Jews or Christians are not predicated upon the Gospels, but are generally available from non-religious historic sources. If we have to rely on the Gospels for evidence of something, and lack other credible sources, the odds are good it was not a relevant part of the culture and history. What does matter is where the Jews as a group were coming from, and the Romans, the politics, backgrounds and histories, so that readers can understand the isues and tensions which would have arisen for themselves. FT2 07:57, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

I just do not understand your point. This aricle is about Jesus in his cultural and historical context. If we remove Jesus as a basic component of the article, let's just delete the article. I mean, you can't have a background without a foreground, a context without a text. What would be the purpose of this article? We have articles on the Pharisees, Saducees, on Ancient Israel, and Jewish history, and the Great Revolt. In any event, perhaps you misunderstand me or I misunderstand you. The Gospels are the primary sources on Jesus, but nothing in the article clais that the Gospels are the primary sources on Jewish and Roman history. Almost every section of the article relies on sources other than the Gospels. Indeed, this is the rationale for the article: given that the Gosepels give an incomplete account of Jesus' context, we need to look to other sources. Are you suggesting the article relies too much on the Gospels? Can you give an example (or am I misunderstanding you)? Slrubenstein

I think actually, simply put, the above 2 comments almost define whats up. Because the title isnt "Jesus IN his context". It's "The context of the period when Jesus lived".

Its not "look up Jesus' story, and relate it back to his period", its "look at the period and the forces which were playing at that period, and within which a person who preached a new message claimed to be a leader or messiah would have lived and by whose impact they would have been affected."

I think you or someone suggested above that we might actually in reality have two separate articles here, namely "Jesus in his historical and cultural context". The two arent the same and I think what we are gradually seeing is a recognition of that. (They are very similar but its the difference between, say, "what does knowledge of Jewish culture teach us about America" and "What does knowledge of American culture teach us about Judaism". You get a basically different result) FT2 17:42, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

The title of this article is "Cultural and historical background of Jesus" CheeseDreams 21:00, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but I believe the purpose of this article initially (and what I personally would advocate as a meaningful purpose for it today) was to help reduce the excessive size of the Jesus article. That article had devoted a great deal of time to attempting to explain the forces at work in the society in which Jesus (allegedly) lived, in order to better understand what the actions and positions attributed to him in the Gospels may have signified to a first-century audience. I think this kind of coverage is likely to be useful to anyone, religious or non-religious, even including those who doubt Jesus' existence. Anyone familiar with modern historiography knows that it's important to understand facts within their cultural context. The Jesus of the Gospels, whether fictionally, semi-fictionally, or factually represented therein, is a character whose actions need to be understood culturally -- much that we may find strange or significant would have been less so to a first-century audience, and much that we may find normal or reasonable would have been most unusual to them. In order for this encyclopedia to offer good coverage of the meaning of Jesus in context, this article (or else an article much like it) needs to exist -- the Gospels are necessary in order to provide the material that needs to be placed into context. It will be difficult to write this article in a manner that pleases everyone, but not impossible, I think. As I note above, I think it's in everyone's best interests to have such an article. I don't know if this resolves much of the impasse here, but I thought it needed to be said if it hadn't been said yet (or hadn't been said since the last archiving). Jwrosenzweig 21:07, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, this seems exactly right to me. In fact, I have a difficult time understanding how this is even controversial. john k 21:50, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Until the 2nd edit war and 2nd protection, the consensus on this talk page was that it was irrelevant what this article had previously been. The generally agreed position was This is not that article. This is an article about background. CheeseDreams 22:26, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It was never the consensus on this talk page that the article's prior history was irrelevant, except possibly for some short span of time between when the claim was made and one of several who disagreed had time to log in and say so. That has been one of the major points of contention as long as this dispute has been going on for the past month or so. The question has repeatedly been raised in different ways, "If it's an article about background, what's in the foreground?" Wesley 02:57, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Which is why The historical Jesus was mooted by Amgine above (and many others earlier) as a possible solution to this controversy. CheeseDreams 22:26, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

All right, then. I'll just work on the article I mentioned at another title. :-) Good luck with this one -- it sounds interesting. Jwrosenzweig 22:50, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

JW Rosenzweig - don't humor CheeseDreams - as you said before, an article about context that ignores the text is simply gibberish. CheeseDreams - I would tentatively somewhat agree with you that the origins of this article should not determine its contents. But this article is an article about the background, or the context, for something specific - the figure of Jesus as presented in the Gospels. It is absolutely impossible to have a useful article on the background or context of something without referring to the subject to which it is supposed to be background or context - in this case, Jesus as depicted in the Gospels - and without making some effort to show how the background and context relates to the material which it is contextualizing. Once again, if any new article is to be created, you should create Cultural and historical background of 1st century Roman Palestine. Or, perhaps Roman Palestine in the 1st century AD. Or whatever. Yes, this article is supposed to be background. But background is not background unless it is presented in relationship to the material to which it is supposed to be the background. The article you want to write is a cultural and historical description of Jewish society in the 1st century AD. This article would provide useful information and background for someone interested in the context of Jesus and the Gospels. But it would not be an article about the context and background of Jesus and the Gospels. In the same way, History of Athens is an article which might provide useful information and background for someone interested in the context of, say, Plato, or the great Tragedians. But that does not mean the article is an article about the context of Plato or the Tragedians. Can you understand the distinction? john k 22:58, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ah, so much respect for people actually attempting to reach compromise. CheeseDreams 23:29, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

All right, then, John -- makes no odds to me. I'm just tired of fighting with someone who's so convinced I'm biased that he won't even have a conversation with me to find out how reasonable I can be. I've fought too many of them in the last 18 months and I didn't care to fight CD, but as it's important, I agree that backing down so quickly probably isn't the right thing to do. I agree that, if this article removes Jesus and the Gospel assertions about him, it will inevitably lose its purpose...after all, we don't have a general article on the culture in any other century for that area. The only reason to have this one is that a remarkably important figure (fictional or no) reportedly existed in it, and we can't understand him as well without it. A correction, though -- the remark about "context" and "text" was made by Slrubenstein, I believe. Jwrosenzweig 23:15, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ah, my bad on that last. One thing that this article has convinced me of is that the doing away with of sub-articles isn't necessarily a good thing. john k 05:48, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, Jesus must be mentioned in this article, but the focus of the article is the cultural and historic context in which he lived (if he lived etc. see other article for that discussison). These cultural, societal and historic forces acted upon all members of the society, and the forces as they acted upon any member of this society are the primary focus of the article, not Christianity, which essentially did not exist in Jesus' lifetime, and not Jesus, as during this period, Jesus was not a major figure, per se. The recognition of his importance came after his death, and the religion that grew from his teachings began, as the story goes, quite near his death. (you, Peter are the living rock upon which I will build my church) So my opinion is that Jesus is mostly not relevant to the article. Same with Christianity. The article is about the environment in which "a Jesus" and "a new religion" could have appeared. This is a daughter article to Jesus, yes, but it isn't a religious article or biography. Pedant 23:54, 2004 Nov 29 (UTC)

Jesus is absolutely relevant to the article, as his name appears in the article's title. However, I agree that this is not a biography of Jesus or the first part of the History of Christianity. I understand that the Church is traditionally held to have begun on Pentecost, shortly after Jesus' Ascension; however, one could argue that Jesus was (according to the gospels) already trying to spread his teachings and practices by sending out the seventy disciples to preach about the kingdom of God and to heal the sick, etc. But what I see this article doing is perhaps very briefly mention that in the Gospels Jesus is often addressed as Rabbi, and then discuss what a first century rabbi was. Briefly mention his interactions with the Pharisees, Sadducees and other groups and describe in more detail who they were. For that matter, tax collectors and zealots alike could be mentioned. So, Jesus himself would receive small mention and Christianity the same or less, but the stories about Jesus and about Palestine would at least in part determine what it is about first century "Roman Palestine" that makes it worth writing an article about, and more than that, arguing about so vehemently. Wesley 02:57, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, this seems essentially right to me. I feel like the current article mostly does a good job with this. That is to say, the article is not about Jesus, or about early Christianity. But to do its job it needs to explain how the context under discussion relates to Jesus and early Christianity. Otherwise it's not an article about the context of something. john k 05:48, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Jwrosenzweig, please do not weary. I too am tired of CheeseDreams obstructionism. But the fact is you, John K, and Wesley are all pretty much on the same page and have a clear, reasonable understanding of what is going on (and I am sure I have left out some names, but not because I don't recognize their contributions.) To summarize:

The origins of the article are important. That doesn't mean the article is frozen in time and cannot change -- all Misplaced Pages articles are works in process. But of course the origins are important!
When Mpolo originally separated this as a daughter article of the Jesus article and gave it the title "Culturan and Historical Background of Jesus," he could just as well have entitled it "Jesus in his Cultural and Historical Background" Or he could have come up with another title. Daughter articles are strange in this way -- the article exists before the title. Usually it is the other way around -- and the contents of the article must strive to conform to the title. But with daughter articles, the trick is to come up with an appropriate title for an article that already exists. Now, I don't care whether we change the title or not, but certainly, we cannot fetishize it.
Pedant is right to raise the question of focus, but in this case misunderstands what the focus is. Many articles focus on a "thing" (e.g. "physics" or "World War II"). This article, however, focuses on the relationship between two things: Jesus, and the cultural and historical context in which he lived. It is the articulation or conjunction between these two things that is the topic of this article. Perhaps I disagree with John K. and Wesley over how much historical background is necessary -- but that argument (if indeed we disagree) is secondary; all three of us agree that whatever background is presented, it is to provide a historical context for understanding Jesus. In this narrow sense FT2 and I may agree (he provides the analogy, "what does knowledge of Jewish culture teach us about America" versus "What does knowledge of American culture teach us about Judaism". I believe he prefers the second one. If we had to choose between these two, I too would chose the second one. But I think in fact historians work in a more nuanced way. American culture is the totality of American social groups, institutions, and their relationships. You cannot understand American culture without including Jews (and Blacks, Irish, Italians, and so on). Similarly, a historical understanding of Jesus informs our understanding of first century Jewish culture. Nevertheless, this article begins with the point that, historians who do not believe in miracles must start with an understanding of Jewish and Hellenic culture and history, in order to understand Jesus' life. But in this sentence, "Jewish" and "Jesus" are still equally important in determining the focus of the article.
The point that Christianity did not even exist at that time is a red-herring. No one claims that this article is about Christianity. Indeed, in the original Jesus article this section explicitly provided the "historical Jesus" as a contrast to the Christian account of Jesus' life. The purpose for providing cultural and historical background is to show how a non-Christian interpretation of Jesus's life is possible. That said, the article needs to say something about Christianity, because the earliest primary source material on Jesus was written from a Christian point of view. Nevertheless, this article is not about Christianity and no one ever claimed it was.

I am pretty sure John K., JRosenzweig, and Wesley will agree with these four basic points -- if I am mistaken please let me know here or on my own talk page. I know FT2, Amgine, and Pedant may disagree with these points, although I hope that we are closer to some sort of consensus. At the very least, I hope that they think these points are understandable and reasonable. If any of you strongly object to any of them, however, I really do want to understand why and hope that you will take the time to explain it to me. Thanks. Slrubenstein

This argument is raised again.

1. The source of the article is irrelevant to its current status, in much the same way that certain letters which may have been written by member of the Swedish Royalty became irrelevant to World War I. The source is to be remembered, consulted, and considered; nothing more.

Why should it be remembered, consulted, and considered if it is irrelevant? You seem to be saying it is relevant, but that it is not definitive -- which is what I said. So you seem to agree with me. Yet the first sentence disagrees with me. I am confused Slrubenstein

The fact of its creation, why it was created, forces which were involved in its creation, etc. are relevant. But where it came from has very little relevance to the specific contents. - Amgine 19:58, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

2. The title is the tool by which this article will be refered to by Misplaced Pages users. As such it should be neutrally descriptive of the article contents. In short, the article should address the cultural and historical background of Jesus, nothing more or less.

Your second and third sentences seem to be making slightly different points. Sentence two says the title should describe the article contents (I agree); sentence three implies that the contents of the article is dictated by the title (in the case of daughter articles, I disagree). These two sentences seem to contradict -- which is the cart and which is the horse? I am confusedSlrubenstein

The title determines who will see the article. Thus the content of the article should be specific to the title. - Amgine 19:58, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

3. Cultural and historical background is a "thing". A highly nuanced view would (and does) make an excellent book; it would of course not be a useful encyclopedia article. A brief and compact overview of the currently prevalent views of the cultural and historical background in which Jesus would have lived seems most appropriate for an encyclopedia article. (After all, when we consider the source of this article, it was created due to too much information.)

I understand this point and I understand that we disagree. But I still wonder why, if people question Jesus' existence, we need this article at all? You write "A brief and compact overview of the currently prevalent views of the cultural and historical background in which Jesus would have lived" You use the third conditional (would have+past participle) which indicates something that did not happen. It seems silly to write an article in reference to someone that did not exist, when we could instead write articles about times when people really did exist. Surely we all agree Pontius Pilate lived. We all agree that Hillel lived. We all agree that Akiba lived, and that Herod Antipas lived. Why not write an article "Cultural and historical Background of Pilate" or "Cultural and Historical Background of Hillel?" Why do you advocate writing an article about the conditions under which someone could have lived, when there really were people who lived back then. Shouldn't the article be about the background of people who really did live? I am just trying to understand your position. Slrubenstein

You are mistaken about my usage. As an example, an engineering model of the Titanic crash would be used to examine the forces the ship would have experienced. The crash demonstrably existed; the engineers are studying it, just as a Misplaced Pages user looking at this article might be studying the cultural and historical background of Jesus.

I don't believe the question regarding the title of other articles is particularly relevant here; this article is being discussed as it is currently titled. As to the "silliness" of writing this article about someone who may or may not have existed - Misplaced Pages reports on the beliefs of people, and clearly this article is both extremely notable and relevant in this regard. This is an encyclopedic topic regardless of my personal credo (which I do not think I have expressed nor expect to.)

4. Strongly agree the point about the Christian church's nonexistence is a red herring.

- Amgine 18:06, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

And I quote When Mpolo originally separated this as a daughter article of the Jesus article and gave it the title "Culturan and Historical Background of Jesus," he could just as well have entitled it "Jesus in his Cultural and Historical Background"

Therefore I have no objection to the article Jesus in a cultural and historical background existing AS WELL as this article CheeseDreams 19:51, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That's completely ridiculous. The two titles mean the same thing. At any rate, I sincerely fail to understand how the current title precludes all discussion of Jesus? That seems completely absurd to me. Amgine, I don't necessarily disagree with the points you're making, but I don't really understand the conclusions you're drawing from these premises. Again I will ask - how can the article meaningfully be the background to something which is never mentioned in the article? The article you and CheeseDreams and FT2 propose seems to me to no more fit the title Cultural and historical background of Jesus than the article Yale University fits the title Educational background of George W. Bush. john k 20:13, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually, John Kenney, I *don't* feel the article should preclude mention of Jesus and have consistently voted that way. This appears to have been a running misunderstanding. I feel Pedant's description of the article's focus is probably best, although I feel some mention of religion is necessary due to its importance in the culture at the time.

As to the secondary question, there's little doubt that a very accurate and useful description of my life and times, the cultural and historical elements which would mould me and my worldview, could be written without a single reference to me personally. This is undoubtedly why direct archaeological evidence of Jesus is extremely limited; he was not widely recognized in his own time. The primary difference is that after I am gone there will be very little reason to remember me, while the importance of Jesus grew after his departure. - Amgine 20:25, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Amgine, I'm going to have to politely disagree with your final point. If I set out to write Cultural and historical background of Amgine, I think I could do a tolerable job describing the cultural and political influences affecting someone spending their adult years in the suburbs of, say, San Antonio, Texas. Of course, I have no idea if you come from there. In order for my article to be of any use to an amateur student of Amgine's life, I would have to at least identify the salient features of Amgine's existence in order to provide the proper context. Your religion, your social class, your nationality, your cultural heritage, your profession....all of these things would be important. The only difference with this article is that I think the assumption on the part of some editors is that we don't need to explain the details of Jesus' life because everyone knows them. We can't make that assumption. If someone who knows Jesus vaguely as "that guy who started Christianity, made some miracles, and died on a cross" comes to this article, they need to be given enough information about Jesus to make the background comprehensible. We all may think it obvious that Jesus is claimed by the Gospels to have been a rabbi who had issues with the Pharisees and Sadducees, who opposed the Zealots yet had at least one as an associate, etc. But our readers may not. We have to give enough information about Jesus in order to be sure that a reader will understand how the background connects. Yes, this article is primarily about the society and culture in which Jesus lived. But without enough detail about his life, it won't be clear to our readers how they are to make sense of this "background". Do you agree with me that this is a reasonable goal? I'm not clear as to how much you are opposed to such an idea. Jwrosenzweig 20:44, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to giving enough detail about Jesus' life. I believe specific asides are necessary and important for clarity, and should be qualified and verifiable (e.g. Blah blah as found in X, with Y also saying Blahdeblah.) However, (and this is just an example I do not actually recall anyone using) a discussion of how Jesus may fit a selection of prophetic criteria is not relevant to the cultural and historical background. Conversely, a discussion of prophetic criteria as perceived by the culture would be relevant. Do you see the difference? - Amgine 20:58, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I do indeed see the difference -- more to the point, I agree with you. I think simply noting that the Gospels attribute Messianic claims to Jesus is sufficient on his end (perhaps citing a claim in specific, although I don't know if that's necesary for a general discussion). A more detailed description of what that claim might mean to a first century audience (both Jewish and Roman) would also be a good idea in this article. But trying to match Jesus to prophecy point for point wouldn't make sense -- sounds too much like proselytizing to me. If this is the level of detail we're arguing over, I think we'll come to an agreement quite soon. :-) Jwrosenzweig 21:17, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hey - we actually seem to be getting somewhere! I generally agree with both of you, then. I agree that the article shouldn't be about Jesus. But I also think the article needs to provide the necessary background so the reader will know how the stuff being talked about relates to Jesus. To go a bit further, I'd note that articles that deal with subject matters related to this time period, without even having Jesus in the title, such as Pharisee, mention prominently the connection between their topic and the way it is portrayed in the New Testament. Surely an article which is specifically about the context of Jesus ought to emphasize this kind of thing at least as much. john k 21:44, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I pretty much agree with all of the above, when I say Jesus and Christianity aren't the subject of the article, I'm not disagreeing with you. In one sense Jesus is the focus, but the important parts of this article aren't 'what jesus said' 'what jesus did' 'what christians think' etc. as such, ... in other words I think an article can be focused on Jesus without being about Jesus. Does that make sense? I think most of us are pretty much on the same page, from reading the article. I'm not trying to hold anyone back, or keep the page protected in any way. "But trying to match Jesus to prophecy point for point wouldn't make sense" is exactly the kind of thing I mean, that would be too much Jesus and not enough background. I do think the time period this article covers is a bit wide, but if that's what it takes to cover the background, I can live with it. I think stuff from more than a couple hundred years in either way might do with a bit of trimming down, though, where possible. Pedant 00:05, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)

Amgine writes,

a discussion of how Jesus may fit a selection of prophetic criteria is not relevant to the cultural and historical background. Conversely, a discussion of prophetic criteria as perceived by the culture would be relevant.

I too see the difference, and I too agree with Amgine, but with two ammendments. First, in addition to the relevance of prophetic criteria, I do think it is important to include a discussion of how historians re-evaluate Jesus in terms of what we know about prophetic criteria. Do you see the difference? Most people assume that the Gospels' claims about prophetic criteria (and a host of other things, such as the nature of the Pharisees) are true. But those claims may reflect Christian beliefs that developed after Jesus was executed. A discussion of prophetic criteria as perceived by the Jewish culture of the time might lead to a diffeent understanding of Jesus. I think that would belong in the article (if scholars have indeed discussed this). Second, I may disagree with Jwrosenzweig, at least as far as I understand his statement, (or maybe I agree and am trying to spell it out more specifically?)

I think simply noting that the Gospels attribute Messianic claims to Jesus is sufficient on his end

This gets to the crux of the problem, I think: what is the status of the Gospels as historical documents? Writing this article would be easy if we believed that they are entirely authoritative historically, or if we believed that they are entirely spurious. The problem is, most historians I have read take a different view: some elements of the Gospels provide partial evidence of historical events, while other elements express theological and doctrinal claims. For those historians, the trick is separating the two. And in this article, I think we should be concerned with the historical elements, but not the theological ones. "The Gospels attribute Messianic claims to Jesus." Well, if the verses in the Gospels to which John K. refers were written after Jesus' death, then they actually may not be relevant to this article -- not only may they not be evidence of historical and cultural background of Jesus, they may actually disguise or distort that background. Other verses, on the other hand, may very well reflect things people said, did, believed, while Jesus was alive. The basic method historians use is this: if a claim in the Gospel supports later claims by Orthodox Christianity, but have no parallel in Jewish texts from the period (100 BCE-100 CE, let's say), then this claim is not reliable historical evidence. On the other hand, if a claim in the Gospel is consistent with things found in Jewish texts from this period, then it may be reliable historical evidence. Example: there were many "healers" in the Galilee during this period. Now, that doesn't mean Jesus could actually cure a lame person. But it does mean that it is very likely that many Jews at the time believed that Jesus could do this. I am trying to get at a basic point about how "historical and cultural background" might actually be relevant to (informative of) "Jesus." To me, this approach puts historians ahead of the Gospel -- but allows for the fact that many historians selectively rely on the Gospels. I do agree with Jwrosenzweig that this should not be going over Gospel claims point by point. But I think I disagree with John K. -- in a certain way, I think this article is "about" Jesus (what I really think is what I stated above: the article is not about Jesus, nor is it about the Cultural and historical context; it is about the relationship between the two). It is NOT about the "Christian" Jesus or even the Gospels' Jesus. It is about a Jesus that historians have constructed out of historical evidence, which includes a critical reading of the Gospels in terms of all other historical evidence from the period. Slrubenstein

Slr, I don't know that you and I will ever be in perfect agreement about the status of the Gospels as historical documents. :-) I may be wrong, though. Personally I would apply a slightly less stringent test than the comparison with Jewish texts that you propose. However I am willing to allow this may be idiosyncratic on my part, and certainly arguing over that minute level of detail is not a hill I'm willing to die on. If we proceed as you suggest above, I wouldn't object, but I personally would contend that I think the scholarship in New Testament Studies supports dating the Gospels (in the form we now have them) essentially to the latter half of the 1st century AD (and where within those 50 years is anyone's guess). I'm not interested in tussling over such contentious ground, though -- readers can inform themselves if they like. Jwrosenzweig 22:30, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"in this article, I think we should be concerned with the historical elements, but not the theological ones" well said. Pedant 00:05, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)

But we do have other, more reliably dated, sources about the culture and history of the period, and those might better serve the purpose of reference texts than the Gospels, when possible. I think that the Gospels, in their present state, are not that suitable historical references. They are paraphrases of translations of translations. or something similarly altered from what the originals were Pedant 00:05, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)

Are you missing my point? It can't be that you disagree with me -- this is not a matter of whether you or I think there are or are not more reliable sources, because Misplaced Pages forbids original research. I was trying to explain how the historians who write about the cultural and historical background of Jesus do use the Gospels as historical sources, but critically. Slrubenstein

I do not remember this article being Historiography of the bible, or Jesus according to historians or The historical Jesus, so I don't really see the relevance of whether the gospels are an accurate account of history or not. CheeseDreams 23:10, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Uh-duh, if you are going to provide "historical background" you need historical sources. Jwrosenzweig, I don't really think there is any argument between us -- I certainly don't want one. I was summarizing, perhaps not too well, a view taken by some scholars, e.g. Fredricksen and maybe Sanders. Surely you are informed by other scholars, and their views should be represented in the article as well. Please consider my discussion concerning the Gospels to be an example of one way the material has been handled by historians. This should be represented int the article, but of course not exclusively. The Gospels "in general" are indeed dated to a relatively short time after Jesus was executed. Still, even in the course of a generation, a culture can change (anyone live through the sixties? Or even the seventies?). But the real issue is that we don't have the original Mark. We have many early manuscripts and some of them have textual variations and critics debate whether the book you read when you open up your King James or NRV or whatever is exactly what Mark wrote -- indeed, it may not be (see Bart Ehrman's books e.g. The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture or something like that). I honestly do not think we are that far apart. Or have I misunderstood you? Slrubenstein

Just wanted to note that, aside from CheeseDreams, all of us involved in the discussion in this section seem to essentially be on the same page in terms of how much Jesus should be in the article. There seems to be some significant disagreement about how this actually works out in the details. Pedant - I don't think Slr is saying to use the gospels as the principal historical source to explain the context of Jesus. It seems to me that putting Jesus into context and putting the gospels into context is essentially the same thing, since, aside from a few references here and there, our independent knowledge of Jesus comes pretty much entirely from the Gospels. At any rate, I think the best way to hammer all this out would be to actually work on the article. The bigger question, and perhaps the one about which there is more genuine disagreement, is about organization. FT2's version, which separated out history, politics, and culture into different sections, seemed to me ultimately incoherent and difficult to follow. Such an approach will either result in a great deal of unnecessary repetition, or else a huge amount of incoherence (as here) by splitting up subjects that ought to be discussed together into different sections. At the very least, any article which attempted to separate it out in this manner could not consist largely of Slr's text cut up and separated into incomprehensibility, as it seems to do now. But let's start discussing this. john k 00:41, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think SIrubenstein understands where I'm coming from a bit better, and maybe others do too. Perhaps this will help add something to the debate on perspective:

If there was an article on "Jesus in his historical and cultural context", I would expect to read about (as SIrub' says) the relationship between two things - a culture and place, and a person and his reported life. I think SIrub' is pretty spot on there, and we see similarly.

My perspective differs for this article. When you look at "the historical and cultural background" itself, you are also asking a far broader question. Many things that do not relate to the Gospel story, but are nonetheless background to understand it, come into play. The article's content is the kind of information which would be relevant to answer questions like these, for those who do as well as do not believe in his divinity:

What human factors predisposed the rising of "Messiahs" in that time and place?
What was the current state of play in religion? In politics? which affected development of new beliefs and may have influenced this one?
What were the main social issues and themes of the times, as seen by the Jews? The Romans?
What aspects of Jewish history are relevant to understand the actions motivations and positions of the mainstream Jewish community? Romans? Jesus?
What can we reasonably say about how everyday Jews saw the establishment? The temple? Rabbis and priests? Cult groups?
What kind of people were the Roman leaders? Were they kind people who hated to spill blood? Tyrants? Bureaucrats? Frustrated at internicene squabbles? Scared?
How did Jews feel about being Jewish? How did they see Judaism? Were they polarised or open minded? Does it make sense to talk about "the Jews" or the "Jewish mainstream" even?
What kind of new ideas were they open to, and what kind weren't they, and what factors influenced that?
What factors might be relevant to understand certain incidents in the Gospels?
Why did the beliefs started by Jesus form as they did?
What factors in the history and culture would have encouraged a Jew of the time to perceive things as Jesus appears to have perceived them, and develop ideas the way Jesus appeared to develop them?
What factors influenced the schism betwen the Jews and the Jewish Christians? Were these inevitable? If so, why?

You get the idea. The article is not just about "understanding Jesus". To understand Jesus you must understand the context in which a "Jesus" came about, what historical or cultural factors influenced it, and what factors influenced it to go one way or not to go a different way.

I'm not saying we know answers to these, but for a satisfactory "background", there has to be a focus on material capable of being applied to issues such as the above. It can't be just "This is how the gospels and the culture fit together". It has to contain appropriate analysis of what is known of those times to be able to answer in essence, for the historian, "what factors predisposed it to go this way and not that way?" If that is not what this article was, then this article was given a poor choice of title, and needs splitting into "Jesus in his context" with a new article about the cultural background to be written as well.

Otherwise it teaches us little except a faded echo of "the gospels say this and thats how it was". FT2 03:03, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

I do get the idea, and this is very clearly stated -- thank you! Aside from one quibble (it is debated, whether many claimants to "messiah" arose during this period, or just a few) I think all these are great questions. I have one observation and one comment. Observation: with the exception of the last four questions, all of these questions focus on Jewish history. Comment: if your list ended with "what kind of new ideas were they open too, etc.?" I would say this should not be a separate article at all, but just incorporated into the article on Jewish history -- or made an article that is not "Cultural and historical background" but simply "Jewish history in the late Second Temple Period." It is because of your last four questions that this is not an article on specifically Jewish history. So even though only 1/3 of your questions have to do with Jesus, I think these questions fundamentally change the nature of the article. I do not object to this, I am only pointing out that though the number of questions are few, their impact in how we view the article is great. Slrubenstein

Edit conflict

So, not to put too fine a point on it, where are we as regards to what this article is about? It seems we are mostly on the same page about the basics. Here are the points as I see them at the moment (this *does* seem to be a moving target):

Length and depth
I see this as a compact supporting article for Jesus. I believe Slrubenstein sees this as a more nuanced history essay. I am unsure of others' opinions on this matter.

I hope that between us, this is a difference of degree more than kind. Slrubenstein

Sources and bias
Slrubenstein views the article as primarily a historian's state of the science, and therefore privileging (probably correctly) academic texts and sources. While a reasonable heuristic, there is certainly a bias in this approach, not least of which is the preponderence of western and christian POV in the available literature. I am not opposed to this approach per se, but the common knowledge base is not to be utterly disregarded either; there is much in the world which does not appear between the pages of books (horrible paraphrase, sorry.) - Amgine 01:00, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Um, when it comes to a foreign culture two thousand years ago (a culture foreign in many ways even to Jews, today), I just don't see what kind of "common knowledge base" is possible. Indeed, I'd be very suspicious of any "common knowledge" about the cultural background of Jesus (I mean, if "Pontius Pilate was Prefect" is your idea of common knowledge, I won't argue! But if you are talking about what millenial prophets were and the difference between Sicarii and Zealots and how people used "messiah" and what books were sacred -- I don't see any common knowledge base, just myths people have about the past that they use to justify their present beliefs). Besides -- if something is common knowledge, we wouldn't need to write an encyclopedia article about it, right? Aren't articles meant to educate people wabout what they don't know? Slrubenstein

"Common" can also refer to specialized knowledge which is not "professional", such as culinary skills or <ahem> sailing. For example, I know of and have used a technique of celestial navigation which predates Pythogoras and yet in my moderately extensive maritime library (which runs to a couple hundred volumes) I have not found a single mention of it. I discovered it in an anthropological text, where it had been observed in practice, and was later able to track it down in several archeological texts.

Different people have different sources of knowledge, and may have very valid contributions even if they are neither intuitive nor immediately verifiable. Traditional sources of information are to be valued, but not to the exclusion of other valid resources. My personal approach to contradictory or unexpected information has run the gamut from challenging to following up as new avenue for research; I find I have egg on my face less often with the latter, which is encouraging me to be less hasty. - Amgine 04:07, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Collaboration
There are strong feelings on all sides regarding the current article and how to proceed from this point. Does anyone have suggestions as to how to proceed, working together rather than singularly?

I honestly feel the above discussion is the most civil and productive one we have had in a long time. Slrubenstein

As do I, and I am cautiously optimistic. Perhaps we should open a new section to discuss specific points of disagreement? - Amgine 04:07, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

- Amgine 01:00, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Summaries

What on earth is the point of all this summarizing? Why can't we just archive the old material and be done with it? The summarizing just seems to be just one more place where everyone can get into fights. john k 21:46, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The purpose of a summary is to retain important details to the discussion, whilst removing unnecessary asides, and repetition, obfuscation, and junk. As I have pointed out the summary is declared as written by 1 user, and is declared as being contested.

I haven't finished editing the summary, and in fact am doing so over here --- >

in another copy of this page, every time I click save, it will update to the latest stage, so I advise editors not to try to change the summary until I have finished writing it, since it will overwrite their changes and comments without my notice. CheeseDreams 22:52, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Further, removing the summary is a way of supressing the discussion previously held. I will restore it.CheeseDreams 22:52, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I also advise readers to note archive 6, which contains the summaries. I advise you not to duplicate it, since this would be pointless. CheeseDreams 22:52, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think I agree with John. Do any other talk pages have such summarizing? There is NO NEED for summaries; people should just look over the archives. Slrubenstein

Following John's point I am taking most of the "summaries" and just archiving them. Summarizing archived material just defeats the point of archiving. This page keeps getting too long and the solution is to archive. To summarize archived material just makes it even longer. So, let's stop summarizing, and keep archiving. Slrubenstein

I have not "supressed" any summary I have archived it. If anyone wants to see it, go to the archive. Slrubenstein

Injunctions

1) I would like to ask for an injunction to stop people removing the summary from this talk page, or reverting this talk page. Whilst it may be disputed, I have no objection to people filling in the dispute-of-the-summary section of it. Further, it is important to summarise the points that we do not agree on, what the arguments are, and where we think we should be going. Otherwise we will end up going over the same ground repeatedly.

CheeseDreams 01:11, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

NO. Do not summarize, archive. Slrubenstein

Do NOT summarize the discussion. Archive it. The summaries run too great a risk of being biased or misunderstood, and the rest of us shouldn't have to waste time policing them to see how badly our comments were twisted. Wesley 03:20, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Archive text, summarise archive. Removing the summary AND the text results in distortion, and completely wipes away the prior discussion. In addition, it attempts to supress whatever discussion was had. CheeseDreams 19:16, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It doesn't completely wipe away the prior to discussion. The prior discussion is available in the archives for everybody to read. john k 19:45, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes it does. The prior discussion would not be on the talk page. CheeseDreams 00:40, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. It puts it in an archive easily reached from the talk page. john k 02:05, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

2) I would like to ask for an injunction to suspend the discussion of "is this article a history essay or a set of topics" and "is this this Jesus in background or background of Jesus" for the next 4 days, as this seems to result simply in holding the discussion up with ridiculously verbose comments, and just continuously going round in circles. Could we actually try to make some progress please? There is no point in repeatedly attempting to change the structure or nature of this article when we all know where we stand and that we have made our arguments and have come to the conclusion that the other side isn't listening to reason.

CheeseDreams 01:11, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

NO! You do not dictate to others what to talk about. You are refering to one of the most civil, productive discussions we have had in days and you want to put a stop to it? Just go away. Slrubenstein

So long as the discussion in some way relates to improving the article, it should not be barred. Wesley 03:20, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

4 days, not 4 ever. CheeseDreams 19:16, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, so? Why should you get to decide what other people can discuss on the talk page? Especially since, as Slr has noted, this is probably the most productive discussion we've yet had on the talk page. john k 19:45, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

- Are we back to one of Cheezedoodle's silly revert wars? Note, her version -- a soi-dissant summary -- is 85 kilobytes. This version (in which a lot of stuff has been archived) is closer to 58 kilobytes. All C is doing by "summarizing" is imposing her point of view (since she chooses what to include and exclude, and how to phrase things) while adding more and more material to the page. Sorry, but that is not Misplaced Pages protocal. First, do not rewrite someone else's words. Second, as an article gets too long, archive (don't summarize). Slrubenstein

-Are we back to malicious allegations, and arrogant assumptions of rightfullness? -I honestly believe nothing is missing from the summary. Also, in the first pass of the summary (viewable via edit history), you will see that it originates from text that was actually expressed by the protagonists. If you look at Slrubenstein's alternative summaries, you will see that the text I claimed he disputed with regard to the summary is in fact the text he did dispute. If you look at the extracts from the original summary, you will see that my version of the disputed text matches the original. CheeseDreams 19:19, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Look, whoever's job of summarizing was better, there's no precedent for this ridiculousness. Anyone interested can read through the archives and discover what was said. No matter what the intentions of anyone, the act of summarizing a contentious dispute is bound to be slanted towards the summarizers' POV. john k 19:45, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There is massive precedent for summarising.

Also note that there is a (currently blank) section for putting in disputes and refutals of the summary.CheeseDreams 00:40, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I am of the opinion that you haven't actually read it. CheeseDreams 00:41, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And I am of the opinion that you have never been involved in archiving a talk page before. I've never seen a talk page where old discussions were summarized rather than archived, and I see no particular reason why they should be. All it does is lead to more conflict with no actual benefit. john k 02:04, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

CheeseDreams, if there were "massive precedent for summarising," how would you even be aware of such massive precedent if you only started using Misplaced Pages less than two months ago? I'd be interested in seeing a couple examples where you think it's been done well. I can't recall seeing any, but I'll be the first to admit that doesn't mean there aren't any precedents. Could be I'm just not familiar with them. Wesley 05:13, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The next move

We seem to have got to the stage that there is very little anyone is willing to concede. I think the next thing to do is take on board the summary (including whatever the disputes of it are) and re-write the competing versions of the article. CheeseDreams 00:52, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is absurd - we were having a discussion and coming towards consensus. john k 02:03, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I believe much progress has currently been made to understand what some of the various parties' viewpoints are. There appears to be general consensus on what the article is about, but some disagreement about the breadth/depth of the article. We have not addressed a couple of issues, which everyone is carefully not bringing up:

1. Whether to work from FT2's version, Slrubenstein's version, an even earlier version, or to develop a new version.

2. The messianic groups section.

These two elements have been particularly contentious in past discussions, so before anyone responds I would request everyone to keep in mind the goals of an encyclopedic article and avoiding contention - revert and edit wars are harmful. - Amgine 03:30, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This seems sensible to me. I'd just like to add that I removed CheeseDreams's attempt to convert this into some sort of "everyone signs up to work on a different version of the article" business. While a few days ago I might have said that this might be the best way to handle things, it seems fairly clear that we're making progress in discussion, which, it seems to me, obviates the need for this kind of thing. I am also doubtful that CD is working in good faith here - I think she sees that progress is being made towards a consensus which she believes she will not like, and is trying to prevent that from happening by shouting about how no progress is being made. But perhaps not. In terms of the two things you bring up, I think FT2's version cannot be the one that we work from. The method he used of cutting up Slr's text and inserting it all over the place seems to me to be pretty terrible. I (and I am rather embarrassed to admit this) have not really looked at earlier versions of the article. It is possible, I suppose, that an earlier version would be more worth working from than Slr's, but I am doubtful, since he seems to have added a considerable amount of new information, which would be lost if we were to work from another version. That is not to say, though, that we should accept Slr's version with no major changes - I, at least, am very open to discussion of how it could be improved to help with your and others' objections to it. In terms of this version versus FT2's version, the major difference seems to be in terms of organization. I would submit that while there may be arguments to be made for splitting up culture and history, I think there is nothing to be said for the way this is done in FT2's version, since what he essentially did was to cut up Slr's text and semi-randomly put it in different places. If the consensus is in favor of a different organization, it needs to be very carefully written so as to actually make sense, rather than to simply be a version organized differently split up in a difficult to understand manner. In terms of the second issue, from my limited knowledge I thought Slr had the best of the argument on most counts, although I'd have to review it again to be sure. john k 04:30, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

An extensive comment from the Mediator

What follows is a lengthy, & hopefully not too long-winded, comment that does not fit well into what has been said recently; I have been working on it offline, rather than following the discussion here. I submit it here (& not in email to a few) because I beleive it may be of interest to everyone, & perhaps offer some help in this discussion.

From the beginning of this mediation, I have been struggling with one specific issue in the attempt to be fair & objective to all parties: that I know something about the material being discussed. I have been fighting the urge to post my opinion to the talk page because in part there have already been too many cooks in this kitchen, but also becaue I said I would was only participating in to help in the process, not in the writing of this article.

However, Tuesday I realised that my reluctance was, in part, hobbling my ability to mediate in this dispute. Content & process are mixed together here, & I can't address process without discussing content. So I'm taking a risk here by going back on my word & discussing the content of this article, & hopefully I can make clear exactly what I think is going on here, where the process is breaking down, & how preconceptions concerning the content is responsible for this. There are any number of points I could address, but I am limiting myself to only 4, because each one reflects one of the positions that each of the 4 people in this mediation has taken.

1. CheeseDreams at one point asserted that there were a number of messianic movements in Palestine at this time. The minute I read this, I knew exactly what she was talking about, because there is evidence to support her assertion:

A. Suetonius, in the Twelve Caesars ("Vespasian", ch. 4), mentions that immediately before the Jewish War, "An ancient superstition was current in the East, that out of Judea at this time would come the rulers of the world. ... the rebellious Jews, who read it as referring to themselves, murdered their governor, routed the governor of Syria when he came down to restore order, and captured an Eagle." (Robert Graves' translation)

It is hard not to see this "ancient superstition" as a rumor of either Jesus Christ or perhaps a charismatic rival, eager to build on the chilliastic hopes of the locals. And having read a few collections of the non-Biblical notices of Jesus, I am puzzled that this has not attracted any scholarly attention.

B. To this period, as well as to the previous 2 centuries, are dated a number of apocalyptic writings composed by Jewish, & later Christian, writers. (e.g., The Book of Enoch, Testament of the Patriarch, numerous examples in the Dead Sea Scrolls)

This points to a wide interest in mystical & visionary interpretations of the Bible at the time. It is possible that these works were influenced by the existence of the first native ruling family in centuries, in which case these works would be a way to indirectly address the policies & issues of this dynasty. At the least, the presence of kings in lands of ancient Israel & Judea would lead to the rise of religious who modelled themselves after the ancient prophets.

C. Acts (18:24-19:7) mentions a contemporary of Paul named Apollos, who is described as a follower of John the Baptist. (My translation simply states that Apollos was a follower of "John", but the Anchor Bible translation clearly indicates that John the Baptist is meant.)

This is an intreguing passage, for it demonstrates that there was a sect that followed the teachings of John the Baptist long after not only John's death, but even Jesus. The account in the gospels lead us to believe that after John's death, his followers all flocked to follow Jesus, but this passage indicates that at least some remained faithful to their founder's memory, & it is possible these later became the Mandeans CheeseDreams talks about.

Now I can't say how CheeseDreams came to her conclusion, so I am going to put myself in her place, & explain how I would come to this conclusion. When I read, I often only remember the conclusions that I draw from my reading, & not the actual facts from my reading. To explain, had I read these primary sources 5 years ago, I doubt I could rely on them to defend my belief that there were a number of messianic movements; but I would not be any less convinced that this conclusion was valid. (Fortunately in this case, I had encountered these facts in my reading recently, & had taken useful notes that helped me relocate them.)

Do these facts prove that there were a number of messianic movcements? I don't know. But I would argue that from them that one could conclude that there were, & that if this is not the case, then further research is required. (Here I'll admit that I'm not very well read in the secondary literature, & there may be one or more authorities who have stated their conclusions on this question. The movement led by John the Baptist is a mysterious presence that clearly is important to the creation of Christianity, but IIRC the only works that I could find that discussed this issue were items like an exhaustive monograph written in German or were otherwise inaccessible to me at the time.)

So what I feel we have here is a case where someone is making a valid objection, yet at the moment of the discussion cannot defend her or his position. Should this objection be dismissed? I touch upon this problem more below.

2. Amigne believes that his opinions in this article are being ignored by other contributors, in particular Slrubenstein. Slrubenstein in response has made the point that the participants in this article should have a good working knowledge of the details of the period & the material. I agree with him about this, & can comisserate with him over the anguish at finding myself in a dispute where I have relied on solid scholarly works, while the other parties' sources are far less impressive. However, I am troubled with his insistence that the writings of the New Testament should be approached only as historical documents, & any religious views be ignored. This would mean that any consideration of Form Criticism (developed by Martin Dibelius & Rudolf Bultmann in the later 19th & early 20th centuries) would need be excluded. Form Criticism was an attempt by Protestant scholars to purge the New Testament of myth (what they called the Catholic rituals & mystery) in order to get to what they believed was the truth. While this approach did not achieve the goals they had intended, it is important in showing that the Gospels, rather than being naive accounts of fact, are actually very sophisticated documents that were written with intention & (in some cases) considerable literary style.

Obviously, this concern with NT material is outside the scope of this article; however, it is a case where not understanding the material can trip people up. And yet, this is a case very similar to that of CD above: I think I know what Slrubenstein intends -- avoiding the question, which is rooted in belief & not fact, that God appeared on earth during this period -- yet when his words are objectively & inflexibly examined, he's wrong here. Just as FT2 was wrong about the original form of John, & Amgine was about the terminology of "king messiah" & priest messiah". Thoughtful people are using words inadvertantly in an imprecise manner to express important ideas; St Augustine's dictum "Hold to the idea & the words will follow" is being proven false here.

This period is a difficult topic not only to get every detail correct -- which I think requires you to be a divinity student who has written your thesis on this period -- but also to be NPOV -- it is very controversial. I'm not a divinity student, just a guy who has read some books on the topic, but I am aware just how controversial it is. Look at James the Just, & the POVs described there concerning the reliquary that was recently discovered: experts from two different parts of the Israeli government disagree whether the artefact is authentic or not. (Personally, I believe that there is some conscious intent to discredit a possible proof in the existence of Jesus, but the abundance of forgeries & inauthentic materials floating around that deal with this period argues that one cannot be too cautious in accepting any artefact as authentic.)

So if we all accept the fact that we are not experts on this topic, then we must then admit that each of us will be wrong here some of the time. And when that happens, I feel we should then accept each other's admission of error graciously so that we can move on; if that is not part of Wikilove, then it ought to be.

3. FT2 has pointed out that the editing process is going too fast, & that attention is needed to the general shape of the article. This is a point that I am of two minds about this.

Personally, if I think I have a point that is not being listened to but I know is right, I will take time offline to research the matter, & verify that what I believe is right actually is. Remember, articles on Misplaced Pages have no date when they must be -- or are considered -- finished & immutable. There is plenty of time to do things right, & even if you take a break of a few weeks from an article, at the least the time gives you some distance from the issue, & perhaps the editor who is opposing you has moved on to other articles to edit.

On the other hand, this article does not seem to address what I, as a somewhat informed reader, would like to find. Let's take the issue of sexuality at this period, for example. (What follows is only an illustration, & not for discussion here; if you want to debate my views, please contact me either in email or on my Talk page.) Personally, I think Paul of Tarsus was a prude, which is why he wrote a number of things condemning most forms of sexuality (IIRC, he begrudgingly condoned sex within marriage, but only in order to produce offspring). Yet because of his stature within Christianity, & the later respect given to his writings, these views were considered the opinion of Jesus, & therefore God, & enforced by the representatives of organized Christianity.

So if someone wanted to debate my opinion, what would this article explain about the views of sexuality people had at that time? It would be nice if it explained how Paul's views either reflected or contradicted those of his fellow Jews, Greek-speaking neighbors, or later Christians. (There is evidence that celebacy or abstinence was praised if not widely practiced in the early church, & some evidence that this practice was independent of what Paul wrote.) This is a matter no one here has mentioned.

Again, I am not advocating that this topic be included in the article, I am offering an example of what a reader might reasonably expect to find discussed in this article. However, reading it, all I find is a rather detailed although praiseworthy history of Judaism in the last century BC & the first century AD. I feel that this article is covering the expected ground, but without showing an understanding for what information needs to be provided or why.

4. Slrubenstein has argued that this article ought to mention Jesus. I here agree with him, but for reasons I haven't seen him set forth. The most important one is that the material that discusses Jesus -- the Gospels, the Epistles, the writings of the Apostolic Fathers and other early Christian literature -- all make use of a vocabulary that is baffling to the modern reader -- who is the person that will be reading this article. Terms like "the Son of Man", "Jesus of Nazareth" (also translated "Jesus the Nazarene"), the claims made that Jesus was descended from David (which would appear to contradict the later belief that Jesus was either the son of God or God the Son).

But mentioning Jesus doesn't mean arguing that he existed: for the writers of the NT, he did, & that should be the end of the matter; Jesus was a personage that they described, & with care & intent, with language & ideas that I hope this article would explain. His existence is as much of an issue as the existence of Helen, Achilles or Paris in a hypothetical article Cultural and historical background of the Iliad. Unfortunately, the issues of religion (or the freedom from it) have intruded & distracted everyone from the goal of writing a useful article.

I don't know if these comments help the mediation move forward, especially because it is clear that some movement in this discussion has occured without me. But I felt that I needed to express them, if for no other reason to reveal my biases & remove them as distractions from the task at hand. If these comments have not been at all useful, I would be happy to step down; if they make sense, maybe then my advice at this point would too: let's start with a clean slate concerning this article, archive this Talk page -- my comments included -- without making a summary, & ask yourselves what should this article discuss in order for it to be useful. -- llywrch 06:28, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)