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October 26

Has a newspaper ever come chiseled on a stone tablet? (real use, not a stunt)

Even the Romans had reusable wax tablets so maybe not. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:48, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

You mean besides in The Flintstones? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 06:45, 26 October 2017 (UTC)


I really don't see what the point of this question is. Carving in stone has never been a short-term medium, for what is meant to be quickly read soon after writing, in any human culture. In many societies, pot-sherds or "ostraca" were used for such. In any case, newspapers in the modern sense didn't really exist until the 17th century... AnonMoos (talk) 06:50, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
Acta Diurna was a Roman newspaper of sorts. You seem to know more anthropology than me so perhaps human impracticality is not infinite and this was only done in fiction like the Flintstones. (reference many might not get: the newspaper of the 5th most populous Catholic diocese in America is The Tablet. It's made of paper.) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 09:48, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
If it was only available in one copy, and everybody had to go to one place to consult it, then it's not much like a "newspaper in the modern sense", is it now? AnonMoos (talk) 03:24, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
How many copies of USAToday.com are there? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:24, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
The law would say a copy is made every time someone accesses it on a web browser. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:49, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Citation needed for that assertion. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:44, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
There was a 1995 proposal (notorious in certain circles) to completely reorganize copyright law on that basis (see https://www.wired.com/1996/01/white-paper/ ), but it didn't really happen. Our Bruce Lehman article seems to be somewhat inadequate and platitudinous... AnonMoos (talk) 18:31, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

cameras behind images

I understand Getty Images sponsors lots of organizations. One includes the U.S. Olympic Committee. But what brands of cameras do the photographers use? Anyone know?2604:2000:7113:9D00:4117:ACE4:EB23:1A45 (talk) 07:05, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

In the vast majority of cases, the photographers are not employees of Getty Images, and certainly don't use cameras issued to them by Getty Images, so I assume that they use whatever they want and can afford... AnonMoos (talk) 09:24, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
And in sports photography, it's all about the lenses, which cost thousands of dollars. The cameras themselves are derisively referred to as "lens caps" by those in the profession, as they're so much cheaper and easily replaceable. --Xuxl (talk) 15:46, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
Oh. You might like to check the current price of a top range body. A Canon EOS 1D currently lists at around £4000. Slightly more than the average lens cap. --Phil Holmes (talk) 09:08, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

When did tan women become more fashionable than non-tan women?

Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 12:13, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Everything you ever wanted to know on this subject is here:
Key quotes:
"Historically, pale skin has indicated high status. A tan signified that you had to work outdoors as a manual laborer, while pale skin announced that you could afford to stay out of the sun and spend time and money cultivating your appearance."
"Just as in the past pale skin had been a mark of privilege, from the 1960s on, a tan announced that you had the leisure to bronze your skin and the money to travel to places where one could be acquired."
--Guy Macon (talk) 13:36, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
Maybe a bit earlier than that, Sun worship - attitudes to the sun in the 20s and 30s says sunbathing started in the late 1920s in the French Riviera. There was also a popular movement, perhaps inspired by the German Freikörperkultur, which associated sunbathing with good health. In June 1930, members of the Sun-Ray Club caused a minor riot at the Welsh Harp Reservoir in suburban London when they were spotted sunbathing "in various states of semi-nudity" by angry local residents who thought their children might be corrupted. See SUN-BATHING WAR Riotous Scenes on the Banks of the Welsh Harp. Coppertone (sunscreen) was devised in the USA in 1944, suggesting that sunbathing was already widespread there too. Alansplodge (talk) 17:11, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
That's very interesting! A quick scan through the google newspaper archive produced results that back this up, with the first stories popping up 1929-30.
Pennsylvania USA, the Reading Eagle, 9 July 1929: "Sun-Tan is, of course, all the rage just now"
Pennsylvania USA, Gazette and Bulletin, 20 August 1930: "Get the most there is to get out of summertime...rest...play...swim...sun-tan..."
Melbourne, Australia, The Age, 31 October 1930: "Sun-tan is the rage. In smart New York as in London and Paris, pallid make-up is giving way to richer, sunnier tones"
Within a decade, there was this story about tanning strategies: Michigan, USA, the Ludingon Daily News, 24 June 1938: "A 'Good Tan', like everything else in nature, seems to come to some people without effort, to others by careful strategy..."
And by the mid-'50s, this story about a woman who developed a health condition after years of tanning: Texas, USA, The Victoria Advocate, 9 September 1956: "One mature woman, just entering her fifties...had been working too hard at getting a suntan, year after year". 70.67.222.124 (talk) 18:49, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
I wonder if Misplaced Pages has one or ore articles which could be improved with info fro these references. Edison (talk) 20:42, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
Well, no one in this thread has mentioned Sun tanning#Cultural history yet. --69.159.60.147 (talk) 22:55, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
Which at least partially mentions that one answer to this question is "they never really did", or at least not in recent memory. (Partially because it only mentions China.) Nil Einne (talk) 10:34, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
This gender difference goes way back. Pale skin - or the depiction of pale skin - has implications beyond the obvious. Bronze Age Crete (the so-called Minoan civilization) colour-coded their illustrations, men reddish-brown, women pale. See Tan Men/Pale Women: Color and Gender in Archaic Greece and Egypt, a Comparative Approach (2013) by Mary Ann Eaverly. "One of the most obvious stylistic features of Athenian black-figure vase painting is the use of color to differentiate women from men. By comparing ancient art in Egypt and Greece, Tan Men/Pale Women uncovers the complex history behind the use of color to distinguish between genders, without focusing on race." Carbon Caryatid (talk) 11:19, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Whore of Babylon

When does this skin peeled physical and spiritual prostitute perishes with the rest (those who behave like her, starting with the irritators and the influencers)? The article does not have the information.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.30.39.82 (talk • contribs)

The Book of Revelation itself does not contain any dates or context clues do indicate time periods in any meaningful way. It's a dense, confusing text whose meaning and purpose has confounded theologians for centuries, and there are many many different ways to interpret its arcane text. The Misplaced Pages article titled Book of Revelation captures some of the various interpretations of the text, though you will unlikely find any definitive answer to your question which has anything resembling widespread agreement. It's not merely unknown, its unknowable, given the lack of agreement or understanding about what Revelation means. Even those in Christianity, even those who share the same nominal Christian sect, cannot come to any meaningful agreement on it. --Jayron32 13:35, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
Nothing's unknowable, depending on whether angels can divulge great mysteries. But that, too, is merely unknown. The text certainly suggests it's possible. InedibleHulk (talk) 11:58, October 27, 2017 (UTC)
One curious thing is that although it's called "Revelation", many people call it "Revelations". So, the question is, how many actual revelations are there in Revelation? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:26, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Depends where you draw the lines. If you're looking crazy close (as some do), every word is a twist in the exposition of a new sentence. Events of Revelation cuts the main points into 24. I only count the opening of the seals as "news to me", so I say seven. The Book's article's Outline goes with twelve (and then some). InedibleHulk (talk) 13:12, October 27, 2017 (UTC)
Your question, Bugs, is answered definitively and without ambiguity at Book of Revelation#Title.2C authorship.2C and date The title is a direct translation from the Greek first word of the work, ἀποκάλυψις, which is singular. The first verse, here in the King James Version, is translated into English as "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John." --Jayron32 13:22, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
So it's being used as a collective noun, kind of like "information"? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:50, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
In all the Bibles I've seen the book is entitled "The Revelation of St John the Divine". 92.8.218.38 (talk) 13:54, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
No, it's being used as a true singlar, like "event" or "occurance". In this case, there is only one thing refered to by the Revelation, all else is describing the events surrounding the Revelation of a single thing. If you read the text I quoted above, the thing being revealed is actually named, and if follows the word "of" and comes before a comma. I think you can find it. --Jayron32 14:17, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Except that "occurance" isn't even a true word, let alone a true singular. It's "occurrence". See Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 November 30. -- Jack of Oz 19:11, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Except that "pedantry" is a word, and it is never a useful one. --Jayron32 15:30, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Except that pedantry is irrelevant here. Helpful assistance is not pedantry. -- Jack of Oz 19:02, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Helpful assistance becomes pedantry when it is presented in a haughty tone. --Jayron32 19:30, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm terribly sorry ... that you feel that way. But I forgive you. Go and sin no more.  :) -- Jack of Oz 19:58, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Matthew 24 doesn't give hard dates on the general trumpet event (and may be talking about another one), but "verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled." Note that one of those things is "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." If a thing even the likes of which cannot exist must precede the whore's arrival, the whore will not arrive.
Unless Jesus is lying, misinformed, misquoted, speaking in riddles, overlooking the possibility of chronological order failing entirely by then, assuming the listener has already accounted for that possibility, using false prophecy to fulfill/illustrate his prophecy about deception or talking about the other thing, we should be fine, forever. InedibleHulk (talk) 14:03, October 27, 2017 (UTC)
It's not clear that Matthew and Revelation necessarily refer to the same things, Matthew itself directly references the Book of Daniel, see Matthew 24:15. He, of course, could not be referencing Revelation, which would have been written long after Matthew, at least several decades. We could presume that Daniel and Revelation, both being works of apocalyptic writing, and presuming that there is a coherent chronology (known to God) and a choherent plan (known to God) and that there is but one end of days, then possibly, maybe, we could put that together. The question, of course, is within what belief system we are answering the question, and also what interpretation of Revelation we are working under. Many, but not all (and probably not even most, but certainly a significant number) of Christian theologians and Christian sects hold the notion that Revelation is forward looking to the end of days, but there is another significant viewpoint that Revelation (and Daniel too for that matter) is describing events that for the writer were in the present or even the near past. The events could be allegorical, symbolic, metaphorical, or poetic. If anything like a sizable majority of scholars agreed on this matter, we could lean more heavily on one or another interpretation. What we have, however, is a total lack of agreement. It's just not settled. Certainly, there is a right answer; the author had some intent or some purpose. The issue is that, with the tools of modern scholarship, is it possible to get into that author's mind and find their intent or purpose? --Jayron32 14:29, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

October 27

Young boys in shorts

In Europe and America during the 19th and early 20th centuries, why did young boys wore short trousers until they were teenagers? 31.48.57.250 (talk) 20:26, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

I wore shorts at my prep school in the 1970s even in sub-zero temperatures during the winter until was I about 10 years old. This was to develop the correct moral fibre in English youth and ensure a steady supply of chaps who wouldn't moan on polar and Himalayan trips, although the custom had by then largely outgrown its usefulness. Ericoides (talk) 22:53, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
It's unlikely you will get one conclusive answer to this question; clothing fashion results from cultural trends which do not always arise out of a pragmatic, conscious decisions to move the entire culture in one direction. Nor for that matter were short trousers ubiquitous across Europe and America during the period you note. However, it is worth noting that, for centuries and throughout much of the western world, boys would be kept in dresses, same as girls, until about the age of seven, when they were given breeches: see our article Breeching_(boys). As that article notes, this trend continued until roughly the period you are inquiring about, and was done for largely pragmatic reasons, and the trend towards dressing children in a more gendered fashion from earlier in life is a relatively new practice for the regions in question. It's conceivable that the short trousers served a similar function; that is, the fastenings on early modern trousers were easier for the wearer to negotiate, but the short-trousers even more so. Though I tend to believe the trend here can be more easily explained by style, and that efforts to resolve a more deliberate and pragmatic cause are likely to remain speculative, rather than empirical; history only rarely records an established factual basis for a shift in clothing/fashion trends, though it does happen. Snow 23:12, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
  • one reason was simple practicality... as a boy grows, long trousers quickly become noticeably too small (outgrown)... while shorts last a bit longer before it becomes noticeable that they are getting outgrown. Note that in this same era, slightly older boys wore knickerbockers (clothing)... for the same reason. Blueboar (talk) 23:30, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Another reason was economy: boys tend to be hard on their knees, which for long trousers would result in frequently required mending or replacement, whereas bare knees graze, scab and heal readily (as I can attest from my own boyhood in the sixties). It was also thought to be healthier to allow the legs exposure to sun and air. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.202.208.54 (talk) 20:18, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

According to our all too brief article on shorts, knee pants (an early type of short pants) became fashionable for young American boys in the 1890s, worn in combination with short stockings. Only the older boys (teenagers) were given long pants to wear. Followed by a fashion for Knickerbockers in the early 20th century.

"Until after World War I, in many English-speaking countries, boys customarily wore short pants in summer and knickerbockers ("knickers" or "knee pants") in winter. (In British English knickers means underwear worn by women.) At the onset of puberty, they graduated to long trousers. In that era, the transition to "long pants" was a major rite of passage. See, for example, the classic song "Blues in the Night" by Johnny Mercer: "My mammy done told me, when I was in knee-pants, my mammy done told me, son...". "Dimadick (talk) 23:34, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

I call it the Little Lord Fauntleroy look. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:17, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes "knickerbockers" = breeches in British English. Alansplodge (talk) 11:20, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Knickerbockers (clothing), which are still popular for sports such as football, baseball and golf. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:00, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

A short video. Blooteuth (talk) 20:16, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Don’t bother with the video... it’s not on topic and not helpful. Blueboar (talk) 20:28, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Rather than add to the explanations above, I will note that short trousers are still commonly part of a junior school uniform for boys in England at least. Here is a link to the official uniform supplier for the school next door to where I live which shows they are available in sizes up to age 13 years. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:28, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
Not sure how reliable but Boys' Historical Clothing Web Site - Short Pants Suits says: "Boys wearing short pants suits with knee socks and bare knees began to appear in England after the First World War and became increasingly widespread during the early 1920s. Before the War knee length pants were common, but generally worn with long stockings. After the War the shorts became shorter and were more commonly worn with knee length socks, leaving the knees bare. The fashioned was greatly influenced by Lord Baden Powell's growing Boy Scout uniform. The fashion spread to the United States, especially for boys from affluent families". Scouting started in 1907, the Scout uniform was initially influenced by British uniforms of the Second Boer War (see The Scout Association#History of uniform). Alansplodge (talk) 19:02, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Witness retaliation

In US federal courts, is witness retaliation (no article) considered the same thing as witness tampering, or are they different, and if different, do we have an article that covers the subject? I'm just wondering about redirecting retaliation to tampering.

I ran across this circuit court opinion by accident (a false positive in a Google search), which on page 1 notes that the appellant was convicted of witness retaliation. The details provided on the only full paragraph of page 4 demonstrate that the appellant had attacked the witness "after knowing that she had completed her testimony in the trial", but the opinion goes on to say that the statute prohibiting tampering is applicable to this action. I'm not clear if they're considered to be fundamentally the same thing, or if the statute is simply broad enough that it covers two separate types of offenses. I'm not able to follow the relevant citations, e.g. U.S.S.G. § 2J1.2(c)., since I'm not familiar with some of the abbreviations and generally don't know much about citing anything beyond a chapter in the US Code. Nyttend (talk) 21:54, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Hi Nyttend. There is a specific federal statute which provides for a separate offense of witness retaliation: 18 U.S.C. § 1513. It is distinct from charges of witness tampering, although it is worth noting that there are multiple federal statutes which might apply to either offense, depending on the circumstances. In the appellate case you located, the legal issue raised is not whether the defendant had been properly convicted under the elements of the statute utilized to charge the offense, but whether they had been properly sentenced, consistent with the actus reus (specific criminal act) being considered; the statute you noted is a section of the United States Federal Sentencing Guidelines. Snow 23:30, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Oh, also, to get at the pragmatic question motivating this inquiry, I'd be hesitant to redirect witness retaliation to witness tampering, as they are different (if clearly similar) activities, punishable under separate criteria. On the other hand, I doubt we have a more suitable target article if a link is to be made. I do think they are different animals though and that maybe the best thing to do is to leave no redirect until such time as we either have a witness retaliation article, or a small witness retaliation section has been added into witness tampering. Notably, witness intimidation already directs there. Snow 00:14, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for the helpful information, and I'll follow your advice regarding the redirect. Nyttend (talk) 12:03, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
You're most welcome. :) Snow 23:09, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
The vibe I'm getting from this case (and I have zero refs, so correct me), is that the case in question is "witness retaliation" , rather than "witness tampering", for the reason that the accused assaulted the witness "after knowing that she had completed her testimony in the trial" (emphasis mine). Clearly, the accused has not affected the witnesses' testimony, as the case was over at that point. Hence, it was merely "retaliation" for testifying against them. The case in which the witness has testified has not been affected.
"Witness tampering" on the other hand, is (to my understanding) an attempt to interfere with the witnesses' testimony, which obviously cannot be done once the case (and the witnesses' role therein) is over. Unlike "mere" retaliation, it's an attempt to obstruct justice, by scaring or bribing the witness, in order to affect their testimony. Can anyone either confirm or refute this? @John M Baker:, as our resident lawyer, do you have a view on this? 2001:8003:533A:DA00:3532:C694:4C12:CDF2 (talk) 18:36, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
That is more or less accurate (see discussion above). Nyttend's question was more nuanced, however--recognizing the pragmatic distinction, but wondering if both activities are charged under the same or different statutes, under federal law. The answer to that question is also above. Snow 23:09, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Ondes Martenot pitches

On the Ondes Martenot, the operator can either play a pitch by pressing keys on the keyboard, or by sliding the ring controller around. (I've never seen an authentic one in person, otherwise I would know the answer to this question.) The idea is that the pitch played with the ring will slide continuously and match the pitches on the keyboard. But pitches on the keyboard are not evenly spaced. Usually from the center of one white key to the next, the pitch changes by a whole tone. But sometimes (E to F and B to C) the pitch changes only by a half tone. Does the ring controller have a nonlinear distance scale to compensate for this? I.e. does the ring actually "know" that sometimes the width of a white key doesn't always give a whole tone? Or does the ring only match up with the keys octave-by-octave, and deviate slightly within each octave? Staecker (talk) 22:51, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

The ring controller is electronically, and for pitch, mostly linear. It doesn't attempt to track the keyboard. It is also frequently out of tune altogether.
Analogue electronic instruments (apart from the Hammond) are infamously unstable and sensitivity to temperature, humidity, air pressure and life on the road. The prog rock era was probably the nadir for this, when the sheer amount of kit trailed around by even the smaller bands meant that the whole lot was never all in tune at one time. However the pre-war instruments were even worse. WWII, and the development of reliable military electronics, improved the stability of individual components such as valves and capacitors, and these design changes (and the bulk of mil surplus) meant that 1950s and 1960s electronic music became stable enough to start using polyphony and keyboards without an unworkable amount of detuning. The HP200A oscillator design of 1936 used novel techniques like the lightbulb in the gain feedback loop to increase stability. In the 1960s, solid-state designs avoided valves, microphonics and self-heating effects, but brought in enough new problems of their own to keep roadies busy.
In the 1970s, digital electronics and stable quartz-derived frequency clocks finally started to make instruments that weren't perpetually going out of tune. Microprocessors allowed complexity, self-checking and real synchronisation between multiple devices. But you talk to The Youth of Today with their Autotunes, in-bedroom digital editing paths and their Corbynstep Grime music and they don't know what you're on about...
The Ondes Martenot wasn't just a keyboard instrument, it was also an electronic cello. Martenot himself was a cellist and he saw the development of electric organs in the 1920s as dull and expressionless instruments (remote electromechanical controls of that period often were). He wanted something that had both a keyboard (musicians wanted keyboards) and also a more expressive cello-like control. Cellos are of course fretless, so pitch relies on the muscle memory, and also the hearing, of the player. The Ondes Martenot was no different. As with any of these early electronic instruments, including the Theremin of course, the player's sense of pitch was a crucial part of the tuning feedback when playing. You can't play either if you can't hear it accurately. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:55, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! Staecker (talk) 14:41, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
With a digital processor-controlled instrument, it's also possible to map one pitch onto another. It would be quite easy to new-build a digital Ondes Martenot and regularise the ring controller so that it exactly matched the adjacent keyboard key pitch. AIUI, there are more new digital Ondes around today than there ever were for originals, or even for late-build analogues. Even though a "real" Ondes Martenot is not an easy machine to build, as there's still some assumption that it will have physical parts for the diffuseurs. It's not an Onde unless it has a palme with a lyre on it. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:59, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes I'm asking because I just made one with an arduino. The simplest and most natural way to do it is make the ring scale linear, which I realized wouldn't ever match up exactly with a keyboard. Mine just has the ring so it doesn't matter. Staecker (talk) 17:37, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
The ring controller on the Ondes Martenot uses a resistance wire where contact with the player's ring completes a potentiometer circuit. Without a very impractical non-uniform wire or digital processes (ADC, look-up table in ROM, DAC) that were unavailable to the inventor Maurice Martenot in 1928, it is not possible for positions on the wire to match the keyboard keys exactly. This would not have been in Martenot's interest to do because he aimed for the playing characteristic of one string of a cello which is a non-fretted instrument. Note that the Ondes Martinot was built in many versions. Here is a video about one that uses a ribbon to control manually a Variable capacitor (I assume) in an oscillator instead of the contact ring. Blooteuth (talk) 19:38, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
It's basically ridiculous to try and discuss the design of an Ondes Martenot in ASCII and without pulling one apart. The one thing they are not is 'elegant'.
Alan Blumlein was probably the most elegant electronics designer of this period. He could design stereophonic multiplexing with two tin cans and a piece of string. His designs were extremely minimal, yet subtle. So all the spare components that Blumlein didn't use? I think Martenot stuck them in somewhere, "in case they came in handy".
Also Ondes Martenot change in design and features a lot over time. So I am nothing like an Ondes Martenot expert, and I think the main reaction of most Ondes Martenot experts is permanent puzzlement when they open up a new instrument and find it's quite different to all they've seen before.
I don't believe any of Martenot's instruments had a resistive ribbon. For one thing it's hard to make a resistively controlled valve oscillator. Also resistive instruments suck, because the resistive control track wears out or wears noisy. Martenot did famously use "the bag" as the resistive control of the 'touche', which was a resistive device based on the carbon microphone used in a telephone handset.
The ribbon control though, on all the Martenot-built Ondes Martenot I've heard of (not an exhaustive set) was a variable capacitor. At the rear of the case were a row of capacitors, one per octave, connected to metal channels. The ribbon passed through this. The ribbon was metallised on one half, so that as it passed through the channels it increased the area of an effective series capacitor between the ribbon and channel. It also tended to jump non-linearly when engaging the channel for the next octave. Tuning involved adjusting the octave capacitors individually, then bending the channels to get smooth transitions.
Martenot, were you having a laugh or what?
Actually it's understandable. It's just hard to make a variable capacitor with that much range of adjustment, especially then.
The keyboard was equally bizarre. This was a variable inductance, made from a row of series-connected inductors, one for each octave. They were connected by keyboard switches. Notes within the octave were made by a set of fixed inductors. The early keyboard also has hollow grooves in the tops of the keys (the flush black keys too), which allow the player to push the keyboard slightly from side to side, adjusting yet another inductor to give pitch bend.
Both of these are then fairly simple LC tuned AF oscillators. I think he might have later used an RF heterodyne technique, as Theremin did.
So, for pitch, "mostly linear". Andy Dingley (talk) 00:12, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
The player contacts a resistance wire here at 1:13. Blooteuth (talk) 16:18, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
That's just a string. There is a loop of string within the Ondes, which runs over a rectangular frame of pulleys. Between the two front pulleys is a ring, which the player wears on a finger. Between the rear two pulleys is the control device, the variable capacitor. There is no "touch" to any resistive component, as used in the Trautonium, Persephone, Stylophone or Korg Monotron. Also the string is spring-tensioned, so has some sideways slack. The player can move their ribbon hand vertically or back and forth without changing pitch. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:51, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Edgar Guest info needed

I am looking for whomever would hold the copyright on Edgar Guest's poetry. My father would like to include the poem, "A Child of Mine" in a book he is writing.

According to a website I found, this poem was originally published in Guest's book Living the years, OCLC 26955714, and this book does not appear in the Stanford copyright renewal database. If Stanford is correct, everything first published in this book is in the public domain, since the failure to file for copyright renewal in 1977 ended Guest's copyright on the book. However, this assumes two things: (1) Was this poem originally published in this book? Your father must ensure that the random website is correct in saying that it wasn't published elsewhere before depending on the copyright status of this book, since if published elsewhere, its status depends on that of the original publication. (2) Did this book indeed not get renewed? Stanford can make errors, so to avoid legal liability for copyright infringement, your father needs to check the official US Copyright Office Records. He can pay the Office to search its own records ($200 per hour), or he can check the Copyright Office's published volumes of renewals; images of these books (so he doesn't need to trust that the transcriptions are accurate) are available at (for renewals submitted January-June 1977) and (for renewals submitted July-December 1977). Nyttend (talk) 23:45, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Any idea of when was this poem originally published? Some of Edgar Guest's works are in the public domain in the United States. All copyrights prior to 1923 have expired. The rest of Guest's works will enter the public domain 95 years following their date of publication. See: https://copyright.cornell.edu/publicdomain Dimadick (talk) 23:56, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

OP, you mean "looking for whoever would hold". Easy way to remember this: if the answer to the "who/m"? question can be "he", use who; if the "who/m"? question can be "him", use whom. The answer to "who/m"? question "who/m holds the copyright?" could be "he holds the copyright", but not *"him holds the copyright". Even easier: always use "who".--Shirt58 (talk) 01:08, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
Elaborating on Shirt58’s point: In the sentence “I am looking for who(m)ever would hold the copyright“, the object of the preposition “for” is not “who(m)ever”, but rather is the entire dependent clause “whoever would hold the copright”. Since it is a clause, it is not marked for grammatical case. Within the dependent clause, the subject is “whoever”, in the nominative (=subjective) case. Loraof (talk) 17:44, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

October 28

Declaration of Independence of Catalonia

There are lots of things I don't understand about the current situation in Catalonia.

1) Was the Declaration of Independence in response to Section 110 or vice versa? I've seen sources imply either, though I think it is fairly agreed-on that the declaration came first. Was this some kind of mutual causality?

2) What is the point of making the Declaration first? I mean, if you're going to declare what will be called an illegitimate country, why rush to do it in a legitimate regional congress?

3) Why did the opposition walk out? It sounded like they were not far from getting a majority, and with legislators worried about being prosecuted to vote the wrong way, it seems like it would have been possible to get last minute defectors.

4) Does Catalonia have an army, weapons, fortifications, or a battle plan of any kind? It seems like they have a moderately defensible border with a lot of river boundaries, but are they taking any effort to secure it?

5) Above all, what is the rationale of Catalan pro-independence legislators and voters? I am seeing pretty one-sided coverage against them -- what is their thought process? How do they hope to surpass or even maintain the level of autonomy they had pre-referendum? Wnt (talk) 19:35, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the Catalans likely wanted to declare independence before the Spanish decree abolishing the region's autonomy was passed, to give it additional legitimacy, but the situation now is more political than legal. Since the Spanish state doesn't want to negotiate and the Catalans don't want to back down on their quest for independence, it will come down to who can make the reality on the ground conform to its vision of what is happening. In other words, Spain has suspended Catalonia's autonomy, but if a Catalan government continues to function in spite of this, the law doesn't mean much. Similarly, if the Catalan government cannot demonstrate a minimum of control over its territory, its declaration of independence will be meaningless and eventually become simply a historical curiosity. The problem at this point is that no one can say with any degree of confidence how things will turn out: how much force will Spain be willing to exert to demonstrate the Catalan declaration is ineffectual? If the vast majority of the population supports independence, as appears to be the case, it's going to be very difficult for Spain to reassert its rule in the face of massive demonstrations and civil disobedience. But the population could also get over its initial enthusiasm for independence and not oppose much resistance to Spain's efforts to reassert control. No one knows how it will turn out at this point. One thing is certain though: your option 4 is a misreading of the situation: no one on either side wants a military confrontation and if it gets to that, it will be because both sides have played their hand terribly. What is the rationale (question 5)? the same as most nationalist movements: the Catalans feel the central government does not represent them correctly, impedes their development (economic, cultural or whatever) and consider they would be better off if they had complete control of their own destiny. If they do achieve independence, they would definitely surpass the level of autonomy they had before the referendum. There are also plenty of intermediate arrangements that could give Catalonia much greater government powers within Spain... if the two sides eventually agree to sit down and discuss things. The arrangement that existed pre-referendum gave Catalonia powers that were inferior to most constituent states of a federal government, so there was a lot to gain, potentially. But they could also lose everything. We'll see. Xuxl (talk) 20:35, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
The reason why force seemed relevant is, well, what else can stop the Spanish government from arresting all their officials and going into the banks to seize whatever accounts hold the regional budget, the local police force's pension plan, etc.? (Actually I don't understand much about how banks arrange to have their money considered "real" -- it's not clear to me the government can't just pick up a phone and essentially make the money theirs, or whatever bank holds it) If they are free to roam around taking whoever and whatever they want, they demonstrate the essence of governance.... Wnt (talk) 04:27, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
There's a difference between asking police to enforce laws and raising the issue of military force and defensible borders and fortifications, which is what the OP mentioned in his point 4. --Xuxl (talk) 12:22, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
About point 4), the Catalans have the ability to set up alternative government systems in cyberspace, also the Catalans contribute a lot to the State finances via taxes, so they can just stop paying taxes to the Spanish government and instead pay taxes to their local government. Count Iblis (talk) 22:58, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Governments regularly seize assets with apparent ease; see U.S. Seizes Billions in Iraqi Assets (2003) and Spanish police seize property worth £590m from Assad family (April 2017). Perhaps we could confine ourselves to finding sources which give possible courses of action rather than just guessing? Alansplodge (talk) 09:10, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
Such sources are welcome, but I have no idea how they generalize when the bank is physically located in a newly rebellious province. All of a sudden the philosophical question of "where" the bank's intangible currency is located becomes a practical question, one I have no idea how to answer. Wnt (talk) 14:40, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
I just had another look at a news archive search; some moderately relevant sources are (Considering a cryptocurrency) (Caixabank and Sabadell have "left Catalonia", and "the stock market" has crashed; quote: "But the Catalans are much too sensible to try to take on the military might of the Spanish state. They will instead allow Madrid to tie itself in knots as it tries to take over and run the province. There will be passive resistance and there will be marches and strikes. If Spain prosecutes and imprisons Carles Puigdemont, as it has threatened to do, a dozen others will appear in his place. It's no easy matter to run a government when the various arms of the state, like the civil service, police, and judges, are unwilling agents. ") (those two banks suffered huge stock losses).
Honestly, I still don't understand any of it. Starting a new cryptocurrency sounds like a great idea, but if it is, why wasn't it a great idea a month ago? Or better yet, a low-denomination bearer bond, perhaps in the form of a note or coin, that is backed by loans/bonds taken out by a region's small businesses (we ought to get one of these for America...) But --- most people involved with banks don't have a choice. I mean, either they have a pension fund or nest egg in the bank, which they might only be allowed to access if they are in good legal standing and swear loyalty to the King of Spain or something, or they have an outstanding loan that they might not dare to ignore out of hope that an independent Catalonia will forget about the international bourgeoisie, because what fine young republic ever does that? Which leaves ... a bunch of street demonstrations for independence, which they could have done before, with equally little result. If the Spanish get serious, the gold standard response is Sinicization of Tibet. Wnt (talk) 14:57, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

October 29

Firmament

Could somebody in the know have a quick look at this article, especially with regard to the last edit by Forestsoceansmusic included in the recent version? I think at least the introduction could do with a little overhaul, but I'm afraid I'm not well-versed enough in this subject.--Cleph (talk) 18:14, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

I now have it on my watchlist. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:23, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
Good alert. My old church minister said the same thing about what the firmament meant, and he weren't no Catholic. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:44, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
I wonder if we should move Forestsoceansmusic's referenced comment into a separate section, something like "Alternative interpretations"? There are a ton of sources on Google Books which confirm that the "solid bowl" concept was actually believed by the ancient Hebrews. Alansplodge (talk) 13:58, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

October 30

Ballad of an Intellectual

A discussion on another desk reminded me of one of my favorite E. E. Cummings poems, "Ballad of an Intellectual", for which my affection is admittedly not purely on the basis of literary merit. It's a sharp poke at the radical chic of his day.

We don't seem to have an article on the poem itself, and I was wondering if anyone could help me figure out a few things about some of the allusions.

  • First, can anyone figure out who the poem is about? I get a strong sense that Cummings had someone in particular in mind. A perfectly acceptable answer is, "no, there's no evidence that he was talking about anyone in particular",or perhaps "there's no one in particular for which there's evidence that he's the subject", which I suppose is a bit different if that's the case.
  • This couplet, or whoso conniveth at Lenin his dream/shall dine upon bayonets,isn't and seam. Can anyone figure out "isn't and seam"? A fair number of the allusions seem to be sound-alikes, but "isn't and seam" doesn't sound like anything I can think of.
  • The line for if you're not bourgeois you're Eddie Gest. I think this might be Edgar Guest? But though Guest is described as "the people's poet", our article doesn't suggest that he was ever particularly political, and certainly never suggests he was a communist.

Thanks for any help! --Trovatore (talk) 04:41, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Not much of a literary critic, but here and here are the offerings of Mr Google. Alansplodge (talk) 11:09, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Some of the rhyming approaches Ogden Nash territory (though I doubt Ogden Nash would have ever taken Communism as a subject)... AnonMoos (talk) 12:31, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
This Amazon customer review calls the Ballad "a sour jingle about sour communards". Alansplodge (talk) 13:56, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Did anyone else notice that this poem is dated 1994, and old e.e. died in 1962? DOR (HK) (talk) 14:02, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Per the footnote at the bottom of the poem: "From "e. e. cummings: Complete Poems 1904-1962: Revised, Corrected, and Expanded Edition Containing All the Published Poetry , " edited by George J. Firmage. (Liveright: $50). This is to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the birth of e. e. cummings (Oct. 14, 1894). 1994 Reprinted by permission."uhhlive (talk) 14:51, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
The first link that I posted (www.lorenwebster) says the poem was "Written in 1932". Alansplodge (talk) 16:41, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Can someone explain why this man's work is seen as more worthy, say, than the lyrics of the average garage band or doggerel from a high school journal? Honestly, I don't perceive it. Wnt (talk) 23:16, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
@Wnt: As I mentioned, I like this particular poem for reasons other than its pure value as literature, but in any case it is very atypical of Cummings's larger oeuvre. Maybe you knew that; maybe not. If you didn't, you might look up "anyone lived in a pretty how town" or "my father moved through dooms of love", and see if they move you more. (I can't get through either of them dry-eyed, but that might be just me.) --Trovatore (talk) 00:38, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
The exploration of parts of speech in the second one is slightly more interesting, though aesthetically they fall on barren rock for me. But, the first of your cites also uses "isn't" as a noun, which seems like it might be relevant to answering the original question. Wnt (talk) 01:59, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Hmm, I suppose it's possible, but "anyone" is a love story whereas "ballad" is a political critique, so I kind of doubt it's the same "isn't". If you can say more about your insight, though, I'd love to hear it — maybe I missed your point. --Trovatore (talk) 02:03, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Well, I'm not sure the text really means very much, but I would guess "isn't" as a noun in both cases means essentially "a statement that it isn't my problem". In the "ballad" there are quotes with isn't as a verb to go by; in the other I infer this from "cared not at all". Wnt (talk) 02:10, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Hmm — and then "seam"? I still want to read this as a sound-alike for something, but I'm blanking on what it sounds like. --Trovatore (talk) 02:16, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
(By the way, I'm not sure I quite agree with your interpretation of "isn't" in "anyone". I think the point is that anyone and noone are authentic and active — he sings his didn't and dances his did; her character is developed more in terms of her love for him, but together they laugh their cryings and do their dance. The townspeople are not really living in the same way as noone and anyone; that's why they sow their isn't and reap their same. Then anyone and noone die, and the townspeople just go on.) --Trovatore (talk) 02:23, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Well, I have no idea. But "seem" is an apparent homophone. Given the description of e.e. cummings as developing a strong dislike for Communism after seeing 1931 Russia, I'm not expecting anything friendly. Wnt (talk) 02:27, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Hmm, yeah, it could be just "seem", spelled to "rhyme" with the preceding "dream". I thought it was probably some more specific reference to some event or institution of the time, but maybe not. Yes, of course the poem is anti-communist; that's clear from beginning to end. --Trovatore (talk) 02:44, 31 October 2017 (UTC)


October 31

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