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User talk:Jimbo Wales

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    Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates.
    He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees.
    The current trustees occupying "community-selected" seats are Doc James, Pundit and Raystorm.
    The Wikimedia Foundation's Director of Support and Safety is Maggie Dennis.
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    Voting open for ArbCom

    ArbComCandidates: Personal voter guides

    These guides represent the thoughts of their authors. All individually written voter guides are eligible for inclusion.

    Voting has opened for Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2017.

    Just in case you need some guidance in voting there are lots of voter guides available, e.g. User:Smallbones/ACE2017 . Smallbones(smalltalk) 00:27, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

    And don't forget <User:Carrite/ACE2017>. Really now, is canvassing voters' guides here appropriate? Carrite (talk) 04:01, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
    So far they haven't sent talk page notifications to eligible voters this year, but here you get service with a smile :-) Smallbones(smalltalk) 11:31, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
    So far only 107 people have voted. Smallbones(smalltalk) 11:35, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

    Full alphabetical list of guides:

    I've gone ahead and just transcluded Template:ACE2017, which contains the list of all the voter guides, among other things, at the top of this thread. Mz7 (talk) 07:36, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

    Extremely low turnout

    Ben Shahn, Register to Vote, Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO) poster, 1946

    So far only 261 editors have voted in the ArbCom election, compared to over 1,000 last year at this time. Why? The obvious reason seems to be that there has been no announcement given on the talk pages of eligible voters. All is not lost yet, however. The elections in (both years) last for two weeks so we have time to catch up. Last year's total number of voters was 1,950 - so over half of the voters voted in the first 2 days. I'd hate to see this year's vote total come in at about 520 ! I'll check on whether we can get an announcement put on talk pages. In the meantime - please vote. Smallbones(smalltalk) 19:05, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

    I just went there to vote, but for me it did nor work out well. I was not able to sign in on the Wikimedia site..I got this message: "The supplied credentials could not be authenticated."then when I saw where I did not need to be logged in to vote, I looked at the names and have had no experience with any of them and their names did not link to anything, so I gave up. Nocturnalnow (talk) 22:22, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
    ok, I tried again and see that the Candidate statements are linked to via their names below the "voting" button. So now I can do it. Nocturnalnow (talk) 22:29, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
    ok, I voted ....YAY!....it was fun ! Nocturnalnow (talk) 22:37, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
    @Smallbones: I'm working with the election commissioners to make this happen as soon as possible. :) Joe Sutherland (WMF) (talk) 23:16, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
    Thanks. I'm sure you'll get this straightened out in time. Smallbones(smalltalk) 23:29, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
    @Smallbones: How does the number of questions asked of each candidate compare? We've still got 11 days left for questions to be asked? Unless, of course someone decides to start deleting them because we're "mid-way through the voting period"? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:28, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    The cause is definitely the lack of a mass message so far. For context, in 2014, the year directly before we began to send the mass messages, only 593 votes were determined to be valid. In 2015, the year we started sending the mass message, 2674 votes were determined to be valid. Mz7 (talk) 00:28, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

    By all means let's send out a mass notification as quickly as possible. An election that voters don't know about lacks the maximum legitimacy that we need.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:23, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

    Just curious, why wasn't a notification sent out? Benjamin (talk) 14:51, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    This is a wonderful question. As I recall, during the pre-election discussion it was definitely decided to send out a notification, as has been done for the previous two elections. Carrite (talk) 02:22, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    Some planning and technical issues arose with the first attempt to get the message out, multiple volunteers including the election commission are working to get this resolved within the day. — xaosflux 12:33, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    Given all this attention to detail, it will be interesting to see if they "spam" me, when I already voted. -- Begoon 12:41, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    • I hope that whatever mass-mesaage etc. is being planned to be despatched , is in strict accordance with the consensus (i.e. the closure) at this RFC.Cheers!Winged Blades 16:08, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
      • There certainly was an RfC saying that we should do the notification again. The problem, as I understand it, is that we only want to notify the eligible voters (approx. 150 mainspace edits needed) who have edited this year. That turns out to be a big technical challenge. Smallbones(smalltalk) 16:21, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
        • In that case, technical challenges etc. shall not mean loosening the criterion.If it can't be done in the proper manner, let it not be done.Winged Blades 16:28, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
          • I expect that they will get this to work per the RfC soon enough, but let's not make the best the enemy of the good. I didn't see any suggestion there that this had to be done in exactly one particular way or not done at all. Pinging the closer @Floquenbeam: - do you agree that we should get this done, as quickly as feasible, as close to the summary in your close as possible? Smallbones(smalltalk) 18:04, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
            • (nitpick: you can't maximize two variables; you can't always get it done "as quickly as possible" AND "as close as possible" to the closing summary. Sometimes you have to choose between doing the best you can right now, or doing it as soon as you can once the requuirements of the closing summary are met, or compromising somehow.) All I did was close the RFC saying there was consensus for such a message. If technical challenges are getting in the way of matching exactly what the community wanted, then I have no role in figuring out what tweaks should be made: that's by definition the responsibility of the electoral commission (who appear to be working as quickly as they can). A textbook example of the kind of decisions they were chosen to make. I'm reasonably sure that there's no benefit to me squawking in their ears to "Hurry up! And also, do it like I said! And also, hurry up!". I generally try to avoid pestering people for zero benefit. They're working on it, they're competent, and they have help if they want it; that's all I need to know. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:09, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

    Perhaps part of the turnout is because, when it comes to arbitration, people this year are perfectly happy to take the less painful option and pound their nuts flat with a ball peen hammer instead? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:54, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

    Especially all the female editors, no doubt. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:52, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

    Why

    Why does Jimmy invite people to edit his user page, when it wouldn't be appropriate to change his own words? Benjamin (talk) 04:55, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

    "it wouldn't be appropriate to change his own words" ... without his permission – So often it's in the details. ... Or were you, Benjamin, suggesting that it wouldn't be appropriate for Jimmy to change his own words? Therefore suggesting it would be inappropriate for others as well? The phrasing of your question leaves it unclear for me. --–A Fellow Editor– 13:59, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
    Remember the episode of Rick and Morty with Stephen Colbert? Crowdsourcing! 185.13.106.234 (talk) 20:22, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
    No, I mean, why does he want other editors to edit his page, when really, he's the only one who should be? Benjamin (talk) 09:03, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    "when really, he's the only one who should be?" – Says who? You? Obviously—self-evidently—he doesn't.
    (... doesn't say so, that is ... FWIW, AFAIK, neither do any WP policies and guidelines; p&g do state that users have a wide latitude over how they run their own assigned userspace though—i.e. it's up to the user's discretion, it's Jimbo's prerogative. As on your 'own' userpage the prerogative regarding whether to allow such is yours.) --–A Fellow Editor– 13:02, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    "These are Jimmy's words. Should not be changed."? Benjamin (talk) 13:05, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    The user is meaning this edit. Going by what Dr.K. has said in the edit summary, it was reverted because you changed Jimmy's words. What he is quoted as saying.--5 albert square (talk) 13:17, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    Right, I understand that. What I don't understand is why Jimmy would invite me to edit his words on his page, if they are quotes that should not be edited. Benjamin (talk) 13:20, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    It's because you changed it from reading "founder" to "co-founder". I looked at the actual article Jimmy Wales for this and it says "He is historically cited as a co-founder of Misplaced Pages, though he has disputed the "co-" designation, declaring himself the sole founder". There's also sources backing this up.--5 albert square (talk) 13:34, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    It isn't a content dispute, is it? Benjamin (talk) 13:41, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    Benjamin, stop trolling and go do something useful please.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:35, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

    (edit conflict) – OH! So this thread is all because you, Benjamin, tried but got reverted! Now I see ... Tnx 5 albert square, I was starting to think some weird 'on-the-spectrum' pedantic OCD fixation of some sort was going on ... Turns out instead I just got drawn into some classic passive aggressive rhetorical questioning. Eww, now I feel icky ... ... --–A Fellow Editor– 14:52, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

    I thank 5 albert square for the ping. Now that Jimmy himself has replied, I think this matter has been put to rest. In any case, my opinion is, when editing anyone's userpage, or anywhere for that matter, one should not put words in other peoples' mouths. Editing is not an exercise in ventriloquism and noone should manipulate the expression of anyone's ideas anywhere. Dr. K. 15:50, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    I'm sorry, it is not my intention to troll. I'm still confused about why Jimmy would invite editors to edit his page. Benjamin (talk) 16:04, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    Jimbo trusts that most editors are mature enough to only make constructive edits to his page. His page has been built mostly by editors other than Jimbo himself. When the occasional vandal or troll makes unconstructive changes to his user page, he trusts that they will be quickly reverted. Deli nk (talk) 16:15, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    What would be a constructive edit? His page is composed of things that aren't supposed to be changed. Benjamin (talk) 16:20, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    _ _ ___ ___ _ _

    "I like turtles"

    --–A Fellow Editor– 17:03, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    Benjamin, a constructive edit is something that benefits the encyclopedia. Altering Jimmys talk page to say he is the co-founder when he denies this is the case is definitely not beneficial.
    He allows editors to edit his userpage because Misplaced Pages is about anyone being able to edit it. The same goes for his talk page, he prefers that it isn't protected. However, he also understands that in order to stop damage to the encyclopedia, sometimes we will need to protect it. If that is the case, he trusts us admins to make decisions. 5 albert square (talk) 19:53, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    You can compare Bitcoin to the rise of Misplaced Pages: 1,000 articles in February 2001 (one month after founding), 10,000 in September, 40,000 in September 2002, 100,000 in March 2003 (with 500 people editing daily). Unlike Bitcoin, however, there's no danger of its collapse. Jimbo hasn't actually edited his userpage since before the London riots - more than six years ago. 81.158.234.14 (talk) 10:48, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

    Donations

    Browsing the web while not logged into Misplaced Pages I came across donation requests by you for Misplaced Pages. I will not consider a donation, and will be advising against it to contacts, due to the toxic editing environment I have encountered here. Regards. SaintAviator 19:15, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

    This is what happens when you set up an organization without a leadership hierarchy. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:55, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    You've made 86 edits to mainspace since September 2016 and exactly 1 edit to mainspace since April. I wonder how you know exactly that the editing environment is so "toxic." Pro Tip: Maybe Vladimir Putin is not a subject on which one should spend significant time if one wants to actually improve the encyclopedia. Carrite (talk) 02:18, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    Editors' experiences can be unpleasant. On the other hand, have you found Misplaced Pages useful as a source of information? --Bob K31416 (talk) 02:24, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    Couldn't agree more. Buttons0603 (talk) 22:59, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    What an unregistered user sees when looking for info about Sean Hannity.
    What do you think the overall reaction might be when readers who are fans of Hannity see the fundraising banner over a NPOV tag on his article? Do you think it has an effect? Stats show the page's monthly pageview average is 88,838 (Nov 2016 - Oct 2017), or 1,066,056 total pageviews for the year. It could be that WP isn't experiencing any negative feedback over it, or possibly not enough to matter, but my experiences in marketing/advertising/PR says neutrality is a priority, unless your targeting a specific demographic. 12:41, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    So what you're saying is that we should decide whether our articles are neutral or not based on... whether that would appeal to "fans of Hannity"? Seriously? You've read WP:NOTHERE, right?  Volunteer Marek  03:32, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
    The NPOV tag doesn't indicate whether the dispute is about the article being more in favor or more against Hannity. Does that have an effect on your thoughts? --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:25, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    BTW, I just read the lead and it may look anti-Hannity to a fan or others. If the fan noticed the NPOV tag, that might give the fan some comfort. FWIW, I also looked at the Rachel Maddow article for comparison. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:42, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    And what was your conclusion, Bob? I just attempted to remove the conspiracy theory crap which is noncompliant with NPOV - it's biased, and when you consider Maddow is in competition with Hannity it should be removed, or the conspiracy claims about Maddow added to her BLP for Balance using the same arguments that are used in Hannity. I tried that a while back - and it was reverted. I was also reverted at the Hannity article twice within a few minutes today. It's all about tag-teaming and gaming - there's clearly a POV push, and it has nothing to do with AGF - it's soapboxing. If that doesn't reek of partisanship in defiance of our core content policies, I don't know what does. 20:16, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    I think you have reasonable complaints and nothing much can be done about it. --Bob K31416 (talk) 01:06, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
    I agree...and the beat goes on. 02:04, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

    I agree with Atsme. We have thousands upon thousands of articles that have NPOV tags. Clearly we should temporarily disable Template:NPOV during donation drives, lest we offend anyone who is an aficionado of any one or more of those topics. That's a lot of donations we could be losing. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:17, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

    Also, I happen to know how to relieve famine in Ireland. Volunteer Marek  03:34, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
    😂 Just slap some lipstick on that pig and be done with it. 03:43, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
    No idea what you're talking about. Volunteer Marek  04:07, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

    I still would like the appeal to be "Misplaced Pages needs your support. Please take it upon yourself to add content supported by a reliable reference to an article in an area of your expertise this holiday season." Misplaced Pages is the one place on the internet where money is not speech, and I feel that the marginal impact of asking for editors is larger than the marginal impact of asking for cash donations. power~enwiki (π, ν) 04:09, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

    Tampa Mayor's communications director censoring content

    It appears that Tampa Mayor Bob Buckhorn's communications director is censoring content from the article about him. Is that allowed? FloridaArmy (talk) 16:25, 30 November 2017 (UTC) FloridaArmy (talk) 16:25, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

    No. And has already been reverted. Not sure why you are coming here with it though. It's not Jimbo's job to monitor each article. Regards SoWhy 16:29, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    Where is the appropriate place to go on Wilipedia with censorship issues? FloridaArmy (talk) 16:48, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard is a good place for reporting this type of concern. -- Ed (Edgar181) 17:02, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

    Is a communications director a paid editor?

    The editor involved has been blocked as a paid editor. It is very common for Misplaced Pages editors to edit articles about their employers or organisations to which they belong. While there is the potential for a conflict of interest in those cases, that is not considered to be paid editing. In this case, the editor is question is alleged to be the mayor's communications director. Is that different from being an assembly line worker in a factory editing the article on their employer? World's Lamest Critic (talk) 19:03, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

    I performed the block and yes, I think being the communications director director means you are being paid to communicate about your client/company. It's not the same as if you were a mechanic working at a Chrysler repair shop updating the specs in a car article. --NeilN 19:24, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    I should add, the block was for violating WP:PAID - that is, undisclosed paid editing. --NeilN 19:26, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    The "connected contributor" template was added to Talk:Bob Buckhorn in June, after Ashleybauman's first edit. So it wasn't really undeclared, was it? While I'm not disputing that "Ashleybauman" Misplaced Pages editor is almost certainly Ashley Bauman Director of Marketing & Communications at City of Tampa and Mayor Bob Buckhorn, it feels like someone may be advancing their own political agenda by getting their "opponents" blocked. Don't we usually ask representatives of article subjects to discuss issues on the talk page rather than blocking them as "paid editors"? World's Lamest Critic (talk) 20:00, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    It was added by another editor tying the various accounts together. I don't see where Bauman ever declared it herself. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:05, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    Yes. Waters.Justin added that template and this discussion. Both of those seem to be egregious violations of our WP:OUTING policy. Justin.Waters is also the editor who added the material removed by Ashleybauman. World's Lamest Critic (talk) 21:00, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    Resolving a conflict of interest and paid editing is an exception to the outing policy, and I'm not sure it's even outing when one username with the name of the mayor's communications director explicitly stated she is doing it on behalf of the mayor and another user has "COT" City of Tampa in her username. I didn't add the material removed by AshleyBauman; I added references to the material she was deleting in hope she would stop deleting the content and I deleted some of the content that was not in the cited article. She and the COT username were section blanking the article before I even made my first edit to that page. Waters.Justin (talk) 03:55, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
    Waters.Justin@ I don't see where the policy says what you say it does. Can you quote the relevant part here? World's Lamest Critic (talk) 04:19, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
    WLC, the policy is very clear that non-outability takes precedence over COI et al.Whilst the issue could have been better handled through COI noticeboards and the like, notice carefully that Justin has used the phrase that appear to be connected with her.There was no definitive linking of user accounts with RL people and whilst there was obviously some extent of attempted outing, common sense takes precedence over all policies.Winged Blades 04:40, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
    Bauman was very explicitly informed about the policy over two months ago. And you're still missing the undisclosed part. Undisclosed paid editing is against the WMF TOU. --NeilN 20:17, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    I'm sure you've seen editors or IPs showing up at biographies and edit-warring to remove some piece of information. Eventually they communicate something like "I am Mr X's assistant/employee/office intern/etc and Mr X doesn't want that in his article". Someone usually manages to direct them to the talk page or the BLP noticeboard and the issue is discussed and sorted out. We don't block them as paid editors. I don't think they would generally be considered paid editors. I've never seen a case where they were asked to put up a paid editor declaration. Is it because this person has that particular job title that they are being treated differently? How is blocking them addressing their issue? World's Lamest Critic (talk) 20:35, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    "I am Mr X's assistant/employee/office intern/etc and Mr X doesn't want that in his article" - which can be considered enough of a declaration to satisfy most people. If you don't think we don't block for UPE, you haven't looked hard enough. If you disagree with the WMF TOU, take it up with the WMF. If that clause exists in the TOU, admins are going to enforce it. --NeilN 21:10, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    I know that editors are blocked all the time as undeclared paid editors. I'm just not sure that is meant to include people making good faith attempts to change something they don't like on their employer's biography. World's Lamest Critic (talk) 21:19, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
    It is. People making bad faith edits are simply blocked for vandalism or disruption. The routes to unblocking are quite different. Bauman can simply declare and get unblocked (with a rap on the knuckles for her editing). Vandals usually stay blocked. --NeilN 21:30, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

    Email from Brewster_Kahle...Personal appeal?

    Jimbo, I just got an email subject "Please read..an important personal appeal..." I never heard of Brewster Kahle so I did not open the email, but after seeing his Blp I am wondering if he is trying to do something about the attack on Net Neutrality ? I suppose I will open it tomorrow and see what it says unless you or someone warns me not to open it. Nocturnalnow (talk) 20:20, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

    Never mind....I had a look, it is a donation request re: Internet Archive library. Nocturnalnow (talk) 22:53, 30 November 2017 (UTC)