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A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on November 17, 2017.

Endorsements

Hi Folks, the Endorsements subsection includes the following...

"In 2011, the organization declined an offer to discuss gun control with U.S. President Barack Obama. However, at the same time, LaPierre said that "the NRA has supported proposals to prevent gun sales to the mentally ill, strengthen a national system of background checks and spur states to provide needed data.""

I removed it once after trying to find a better place for it, but it seems like a POV "I told you so" kind of comment to me. Someone has returned it. What relevance does this have in this section?

References

  1. CALMES, JACKIE (JACKIE). "N.R.A. Declines to Meet With Obama on Gun Policy". New York Times. Retrieved 15 March 2011. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Ambrose Burnside a "gunsmith"?

Burnside, a West Point graduate, did invent a breech-loading rifle (the Burnside Carbine), and arranged to have that rifle manufactured for sale to the US Army. While Burnside Carbines were manufactured and used by the Army, Burnside himself profited little and was working in an executive position with the Illinois Central Railroad in 1861. While Burnside might be fairly described as an industrial 'gunmaker', the term "gunsmith" suggests a craft that Burnside never practiced.

RfC on advocacy for black gun owners

Closing this RFC. There is no consensus to add the subsection suggested by Snooganssnoogans. This does not mean there can be no reference to the topic of advocacy (or lack thereof) for black gun owners within the article. This does not mean none of the content below could be added to the article; there were many suggesting a condensed version may be appropriate, and that is a separate editorial decision. It means there is a consensus not to insert the entire subsection, and that's all it means. Cheers, fish&karate 15:04, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the following text be added to a subsection entitled "Lack of advocacy for black gun owners" in the "Criticism" section:

The NRA has come under criticism for insufficiently defending gun rights for African-Americans. Critics say that the NRA is typically quick to defend gun rights when the rights of white gun owners appear to have been violated but has stayed silent or offered muted and delayed responses in cases involving gun rights and black gun owners. The NRA rejects the accusations of racial bias. Others have argued that the NRA's inaction in prominent gun rights cases involving black gun owners, such as the case of Philando Castile, is not due to racial bias but is instead likely due to overly zealous support for law enforcement.

The NRA came under criticism from some of its own members and other gun rights advocates in June 2017 for its silence on the shooting of Philando Castile by a police officer at a traffic stop. Castile had a valid firearm permit, informed the police officer about his gun, and was subsequently fatally shot by the police officer when he was allegedly attempting to retrieve his wallet. According to The Washington Post, the NRA has typically "been quick to defend other gun owners who made national news", but stayed silent on the Castile shooting. Some critics attributed the NRA's silence to the fact that Castile was black. On July 9, an NRA spokeswoman commented on the incident, saying it was "a tragedy" that "could have been avoided". Further comments were made by NRA spokeswoman, Dana Loesch, who stated "He was also in possession of a controlled substance (marijuana) and a firearm simultaneously, which is illegal."

Adam Winkler, professor of constitutional law at the UCLA School of Law, noted that the NRA promoted gun control legislation in the 1920s and 1930s with the intent to reduce gun ownership by racial minorities. Winkler added that it was under this legislation that Martin Luther King Jr. had an application for a concealed carry license turned down in 1956 when he applied for one after his house was firebombed. Winkler also argues that the Gun Control Act of 1968, which the NRA took credit for, was motivated out of a fear of black radicals and race riots. According to Robert Slayton, Professor of History at Chapman University, there is a precedence to NRA silence on gun-rights cases involving African-Americans. Slayton mentioned as an example the case of Earl D. Brown, an African-American security guard who carried a licensed weapon and was shot by police after Brown raised his hands and said "I'm security"; the NRA did not comment on the case. The widow of Brown criticized the NRA for its silence, "Honestly, I hear the N.R.A. talking about the right to bear arms. He had the right to bear his that night; they just never told us he wouldn’t have the right to life. It seems like white men and police officers are the only ones who have the right to bear arms in this country." Critics of the NRA also noted the organization's lack of a response and failure to offer condolences after Alton Sterling was killed by police while legally carrying a firearm.

Snooganssnoogans (talk) 04:26, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Dallas Shootings Underscore NRA Hypocrisy, Critics Say". usnews.com. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help)
  2. ^ Beckett, Lois (2016-07-10). "Philando Castile's killing puts NRA's gun rights mission at a crossroads". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Retrieved 2017-12-06.
  3. ^ "Why African-Americans are gun-shy about the NRA". myajc. Retrieved 2017-12-06.
  4. ^ CNN, Deena Zaru,. "Activists accuse NRA of racism for silence over Philando Castile". CNN. Retrieved 2017-12-03. {{cite news}}: |last= has generic name (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  5. ^ Newton, Creede. "Gun control's racist past and present". www.aljazeera.com. Retrieved 2017-12-03.
  6. ^ "NRA offers tepid comment on police shooting of Minnesota man". POLITICO. Retrieved 2017-12-03.
  7. "For black gun owners, bearing arms is a civil rights issue". mcclatchydc. Retrieved 2017-12-06.
  8. After the Castile Verdict, Some Ask: Where is The NRA?, retrieved 2017-12-06
  9. ^ Slayton, Robert (2016-07-12). "The NRA Is Racist". Huffington Post. Retrieved 2017-12-05.
  10. "Opinion | How the NRA's allegiance to cops undermines its credibility on gun rights". Washington Post. Retrieved 2017-12-06. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help)
  11. ^ "Some gun owners are disturbed by the Philando Castile verdict. The NRA is silent". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2017-06-21.
  12. Valentine, Matt. "How the NRA conquered Washington and abandoned gun owners like me". chicagotribune.com. Retrieved 2017-06-21.
  13. "What the police officer who shot Philando Castile said about the shooting". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2017-07-31. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help)
  14. Jacob Sullum (July 10, 2017). "NRA Breaks Its Silence on Philando Castile Shooting". Reason. Retrieved July 10, 2017.
  15. http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/dana-loesch-explains-why-the-nra-didnt-defend-philando-castile/article/2631154
  16. ^ "Gun Control Is "Racist"?". New Republic. Retrieved 2017-12-06.
  17. Winkler, Adam. "The Secret History of Guns". The Atlantic. Retrieved 2017-12-06.
  18. ^ Winkler, Adam (2016-07-15). "The right to bear arms has mostly been for white people". Washington Post. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2017-12-06.
  19. Eligon, John; Robles, Frances (2016-07-08). "Police Shootings Highlight Unease Among Black Gun Owners". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2017-12-05.
  • Oppose The primary issue is WP:RECENT. This section was born out of a section discussing the criticism of the NRA for not speaking out against the police shooting of Castile. Many claimed this was due to racism though other sources have said its due to the NRA not wanting to antagonize local police departments. As I outlined above, many of the above references don't support the NRA doesn't support black gun owners narrative or in some cases they support it poorly by citing examples of the NRA not speaking out for a black gun owner but failing to show that the NRA does speak out when a white or other ethnicity owner is shot by police. The final paragraph is largely referencing two anti-gun, anti-NRA writers and shouldn't be considered a broader view on the subject. The laws in question are older and it isn't clear to what extent the NRA is responsible for the actual legislation in question. Furthermore I don't believe that we should use 1920s era legislation as evidence of a current controversy or problem with the organization. Many things have changed in nearly 100 years. Springee (talk) 04:42, 6 December 2017 (UTC)+
I am not understanding what you are saying? First you say its a recent issue and should not be included. Then you go on to say we should ignore the history as things have changed yet the current events are to recent? You seem to be dancing between the 2 things that when combined are the guidelines for inclusion in that there is a history of this and it still happens today. And the references seem to support that as well. You say oppose but your reasoning as a whole seems to support adding it per wikipedias rules for inclusion. ContentEditman (talk) 12:48, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
There are two issues being conflated here. The first is if the NRA is supporting racist laws. That is a historical question and would generally focus on laws pasted in the 1980s and earlier. The second is if the NRA is racist in its support for individuals who's rights have been violated by the state. These sources have focused on Castile and a few other cases but as the WP already pointed out, that isn't an issue of race, but an issue of the NRA being torn between supporting local law enforcement and gun owners. The accusations of recent racism really don't hold water when one looks at the evidence presented. The articles that claim the NRA is racist due to not speaking out about the Castile shooting ignore that the NRA didn't speak out about several similar shootings where the victim wasn't black. It seems that the public was demanding a statement specifically because of the current political climate around BLM type issues. This section is trying to fit the "racism" label on events/issues as a way to tar the NRA vs because the label really fits the facts. Springee (talk) 15:14, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Support The many references show this has been an issue for a long time. The references also make point that it is not a singular event or only a recent observation, but one that has been around and brought up many times. This wholly meets inclusion guidelines and the many independent and reliable references also support it. ContentEditman (talk) 12:43, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Support. The content is reliably sourced and the text adheres to the sources. There are 16 reliable sources (the Chicago Tribune op-ed is incorrectly used, and I can't vouch for Reason and the Washington Examiner which were added by other editors originally) that substantiate the text. Statements of opinion and criticism are attributed to critics and/or specific individuals. Statements made by scholars are attributed to them. There is no problem of WP:RECENTISM given both the abundant sourcing (which demonstrates that the text is notable and of lasting importance) and the fact that criticism of the NRA's lack of advocacy for racial minorities can be traced to events in the 1920s/1930s and 1960s. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 12:56, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
As I've said, most of the sources don't support the thrust of this section. As they are assembled this could be viewed as WP:SYN. Springee (talk) 15:14, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
That is completely and utterly false. Every single sentence adheres exactly to the sources (with the exception of the three sources I mentioned above). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:23, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
No, much of the material doesn't support the conclusion. The thrust of the section is the NRA has acted based on racism. Some of the sources support that but many don't. An article that states the NRA was slow to or didn't talk about Castile isn't supporting the long term racism narrative. Perhaps the best way to do this is lay out which articles you believe support the overall thesis of the section. Then we can decide if those are reliable or not. I've already stated why I don't believe many of the sources support the thesis of the section. We need to do more than just a he said, she said. Springee (talk) 15:49, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
(1) There is no narrative that is being advanced or argument that has to be supported. The text reports what RS report. It's WP:OR for Misplaced Pages editors to build a case for or against something. Whether you find the arguments advanced by critics of the NRA credible or not is irrelevant. (2) This is the article that you're talking about. I encourage everyone to read it, because this is what Springee considers to be a source that has nothing to do with the NRA and gun rights for black gun owners: This. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:12, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
  • There's a narrative being advanced, but it's by some of the sources, then passed along here. You keep confusing the issue. Nobody is disputing that a RS said it. The dispute is that it doesn't belong here. Merely being newsworthy doesn't make something notable for inclusion. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:38, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Misrepresenting what I have said is not an argument. What you have there is an article talking about a single event (WP:Recent applies). Some of the people interviewed claim the NRA is silent due to racism. That isn't an article on which to anchor a three paragraph section, especially since we have other sources stating its not race but fear of alienating PD's that's at play here. Remember that your article is a RS with respect to the facts that it conveys but opinion with respect to interpreting those facts. I've already said I'm not against including some of the content but not in the way joy are trying to include it. Springee (talk) 16:51, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose in current from. Cut it down to one-two sentences or a short paragraph. This is a very recent attack line against the NRA, and giving it so much WP:UNDUE space would drown out the more substantial criticism this organization has faced throughout the years.Icewhiz (talk) 13:40, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose there's RECENT, UNDUE and NPOV. The entire last paragraph is from an opinion blog, not a RS. There is no opposing viewpoint, especially from Colin Noir or other NRA people. Sir Joseph 14:14, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
In the last paragraph, there are six sources (not one "opinion blog"): (1) US News & World Report, (2) NY Times, (3-5) Op-eds in the Atlantic, Wash Post and the New Republic (text is attributed to the author), (6) Op-ed in HuffPo (text is attributed to the author). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:21, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
If we are going to use opinions attributed to the authors, are those opinions from "experts"? If not they are basically the same as editorial opinions. Springee (talk) 15:14, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This started as a way to try to shoehorn in some allegations made by mostly left-leaning sources to create a division among gun owners. For the most part, it centers around the reactions to one event. Then, when that was opposed, the OP tried adding in the opinions of a law professor and tried making the op-ed piece from a small college history teacher sound like academic study. In the overall history of the org, this is a short-lived discussion. Simply stacking a lot of sources doesn't make it more notable. 500 sources talked about Megan Markle's nose this week, we're not putting that in her bio. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:51, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
I generally agree. I think there is something here but it's really around the NRA supporting law enforcement vs individual gun owners when the two are conflicting. Springee (talk) 15:14, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Could you clarify which of the 16 sources are "left-leaning sources to create a division among gun owners"?
  • Oppose The NRA is Pro Gun Rights and Pro Law Enforcement organization. Every single police officer in the USA is trained to shoot by an NRA Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor. The fact that they give the police the benefit of the doubt until all the facts are in does not make the NRA racist. It makes the NRA cautious. Unlike most of the so called news organizations that automatically attack white police officers for shooting black suspects. --RAF910 (talk) 17:25, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
So, you don't have any policy-based reason for excluding this content? You just personally disagree with the criticism? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:16, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Mixed There's clearly justification for including some of these criticisms in the article. I sympathize with other editors who think the length and tone are WP:UNDUE. It should be clarified that the question is not "is the NRA, in fact, a racist organization?", the question is "should we report the fact that the NRA has been accused of racial bias in the Castile case?" I can't see much reason why it wouldn't be mentioned. Additional comments on wording below. Nblund 03:38, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Weak oppose. I oppose solely because it is way too long. Reduce the size considerably, and I'd probably be in favor. — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  05:04, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Support in a condensed form, such as presented below, in the "Comments" sub-section. Alternatively, reduce quotes in the version as offered in this RfC. For example, this material could go: "The widow of Brown criticized the NRA for its silence...." and her quote. Same applies to the quote by NRA here: "On July 9, an NRA spokeswoman commented..." and the rest of the para. Loesch is not a legal expert (AFAIK) and should not be quoted for legal opinions. But the gist of the material definitely belongs. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:25, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
I agree that we ought to remove the Loesch quotes. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:16, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose It is too long, & it's taking a POV that silence equals racism, which isn't justified. The evidence for NRA being responsible for the passage of gun control laws (not just supporting them, & that in itself would be a strange reversal), & actively intending they restrict ownership by racial minorities, needs to be stronger, too, IMO.  TREKphiler 05:31, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Could you clarify how the text takes "a POV that silence equals racism"? Do you disagree that it's sufficient to attribute the latter claims to the UCLA professor? If you read the sources, you can see that he notes that it was the NRA who took credit for passing those bills (it's not his inference but the NRA's). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:16, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
"quick to defend gun rights when the rights of white gun owners appear to have been violated but has stayed silent or offered muted and delayed responses in cases involving gun rights and black gun owners" Implicit in this is, NRA believes black rights (or black gun owners) aren't worth defending, which is what the statement is trying to make me believe, without actually saying so. Silence on an issue, any issue, does not equate to support: if I say nothing about the killing of Castile, does that mean I believe he deserved it? That is an indefensible conclusion to reach, yet that's exactly the conclusion being offered. As for the NRA being responsible for passage of laws, if all you've got is a single UCLA professor saying it, that's far from sufficient to support the truth of the claim; even if NRA is claiming credit (& you've got a cite saying so), you're miles from proving the intent of the law was racist, let alone NRA intended it to be. (That the result is racially biased is an entirely different issue: a lot of laws, not least the Drug War, have outcomes like that, without the aim being racist.) TREKphiler 08:52, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
  • HARD OPPOSE Calling the NRA a racist organization because they didn't immediately condemn a police shooting to satisfaction of anti-police, anti-gun, anti-NRA writers is pure unadulterated bias.--Limpscash (talk) 05:34, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
None of the text states in Wiki-voice that the NRA is a racist organization. The text doesn't even try to attribute accusations of racism (even though people do accuse the NRA of racism). Could you elaborate on which of the 16 sources are "anti-police, anti-gun, anti-NRA writers"? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:16, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Support - MANY well sourced and cited articles, not to mention suitable for the CRITICISM SECTION. The alleged issue of recentism is unfounded, as per above... "There is no problem of WP:RECENTISM given both the abundant sourcing (which demonstrates that the text is notable and of lasting importance) and the fact that criticism of the NRA's lack of advocacy for racial minorities can be traced to events in the 1920s/1930s and 1960s." - DN (talk) 07:40, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose Leaf-leaning sources alleging racism does not belong in Wikipeida. Undue and NPOV. Trying to claim the NRA is racist is just wrong. AlaskanNativeRU (talk) 21:13, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Could you clarify which of the 16 reliable sources you consider to be "left-leaning"? When you say that they are left-leaning, are you suggesting that they are not WP:RS? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:16, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
  • That question has been essentially answered, but then you respond by implying that calling a source left-leaning is claiming that they're not quality or a RS. A reliable source can easily have a "lean". Many people would call Fox News or the WSJ "right leaning". I would tend to agree. Similarly, Salon or Mother Jones are left-leaning. You keep trying to deflect from the larger issue with this question. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:07, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
  • (1) The sources are not left-leaning. (2) What is the relevance of the sources being left-leaning if you're not questioning whether they are WP:RS? What exactly is your policy-based reason for opposing this content? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 12:21, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
  • If you say "no they aren't" a few more times, maybe I'll magically believe that. You have a tendency to listen for only the answer you want to hear. Trying to explain it to you is pointless. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:25, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
What a bizarre rationale. Do you want us to list every single person and group that has criticized the NRA? If we do that, will that meet your concerns? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:04, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Is there any relevant one? If so, attribute to them, forget the irrelevant ones. Saturnalia0 (talk) 12:44, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Ok, so this is apparently the next step: (1) I attribute the criticism (that has been covered by 16 reliable sources) to specific persons and groups, and (2) you'll next claim that persons and groups (even though covered by 16 RS) are not relevant? Always a pleasure interacting with such a principled editor such as yourself, Saturnalia0. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 12:21, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
  • You keep chanting "16 reliable sources", failing to acknowledge that we've seen duplication among them and hoping that the number 16 will impress people. If there are 10,000 reliable sources reporting on a story, that's impressive. If 16 of 10,000 do, it's not. Once again, if 500 sources report that some random celebrity accidentally flashed her privates getting out of a car, that doesn't mean it goes in the bio. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:34, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
Can you elaborate? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 12:21, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose Per WP:UNDUE, and also excessively citing news sources to try and push a point using borderline weasel words. I support cutting out the unnecessary references, making a fine line in the text between the 1920s and 1930s NRA and the 2010s NRA. Also a good 2/3 of the sentences in the last paragraph is "According to...", " added...", etc. Adotchar| reply here 10:29, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
(1) Please identify the weasel words. (2) You state that there are too many reliable sources, yet also complain about WP:UNDUE. (3) How would you attribute statements other than through "According to...", " added...", etc.? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 12:21, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Support None of the opposals so far convince on why it should be removed altogether. Some simply state that NRA is not racist and therefore this shouldn't be added. That's not a good argument. Political slurs also really don't help during a discussion. As Snoogans says, the material is sufficiently supported. If there are specific objections, these can be addressed instead. Material will never be 100% perfect before being included, so help in making it better. With an article containing 132,928 bytes of content I don't see how three paragraphs on a controversial issue supported by plenty of sources is undue. Prinsgezinde (talk) 18:53, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Support, possibly in abbreviated form: the topic of the NRA and race relations is clearly notable, and has been the subject of a lot of discussion in the news media and elsewhere. Three decent-sized paragraphs might be too much weight. The oppose votes contain no good arguments. --JBL (talk) 23:36, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Support (Summoned by bot). The proposed text is rather too long, but the support for the phenomenon in question among reliable sources is quite clear, and they are numerous enough that failing to mention this notion would be an NPOV violation. The fact that allegations of racism have received coverage in multiple reputable international papers is indicative of its significance. Vanamonde (talk) 13:19, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Qualified support. Per summary by Nblund, Vanamonde and others, the content is overlong, some parts (like ML King's licence refusal) are a bit tendentious, but the topic is legitimate and sourced. Pincrete (talk) 18:38, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Support in abbreviated form. The topic of the organization and race relations is certainly noteworthy, having received sustained and meaningful attention from a variety of scholars, news organizations, etc., over a series of decades. I agree with Pincrete, Nblund, Vanamonde, etc. that the content could be shrunk. I find the "oppose" comments utterly unpersuasive. Neutrality 18:52, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose To long and overall undue. Given the history and coverage the NRA receives, that much weight to something barely covered is undue. Especially since the sources as a whole are not that great for such statements. PackMecEng (talk) 19:45, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Comments

The criticisms of the NRA's response to the Castile shooting alone are significant enough to warrant some mention. The notion that the NRA has a mixed record on race relations is hardly new, but it certainly got a lot more coverage after the Castile shooting. I think the paragraph on Castile could be shorter and a bit more neutrally worded - someone might reasonably dispute the claim that the NRA was "silent" on the Castile shooting, for instance. I think something along these lines might be a starting point?

In 2016, the NRA was criticized for its response to the death of Philando Castile, a black man who was shot by a police officer after Castile informed him that he was legally carrying a firearm. The NRA issued a brief statement shortly after the shooting that called the incident "troubling" and did not mention Castile by name. Critics said , defenders argued .

A second paragraph might discuss some of the broader criticisms of the NRAs record on issues of racial equality:

The NRA has been scrutinized for what critics argue is a lack of concern for black gun owners. Historian Adam Winkler criticized the NRA's past support for gun restrictions in the '60s and '70s that he argues were motivated by fears of racial unrest. (]). The sociologist Scott Melzer suggests that the NRA's use of racially charged appeals, such as its occasionally running ads for products bearing the confederate flag, casts the defense of gun rights as "primarily a (conservative) white men's cause". link.

I'm open to suggestions of course, but the criticism surrounding Castile in particular was pretty significant, and it some of it came from groups that are generally supportive of gun rights (ex)Nblund 03:38, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

I fully favor your suggested language and length for the former of the two paragraphs. I fully favor adding language on racially charged rhetoric by the NRA (additional examples include having Ted Nugent on their board of directors), but I intentionally left that out in an attempt to compromise with editors who were extremely hostile to adding any race-related criticism of the NRA to the article. I do not favor trimming the three sentences attributed by Winkler though (if you're suggesting a trim for that paragraph - it's unclear). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:50, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Even allowing the thrust of the proposal is justified, & IMO it really isn't, the statement "Castile was allegedly reaching for his wallet" is troubling. It suggests the writer either believes Castile, as a gun owner, was going for his weapon & not his wallet, or believes he was, because he was black. That, I suspect, was not the intended impression. TREKphiler 05:40, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Rather than making the section about not siding with minority gun owners I think it would make more sense to make the general criticism siding with local law enforcement rather than individual gun owners. There are actually a number of examples of this (Reason and the WP article I added to the pre-RFC discussion support this view and support it with a number of examples). Inside of that discussion I think we should mention Castile and the other recent examples and note that critics have claimed this is due to racism. The problem I see is that many sources like to cry racism because it's politically expedient. However, when we look at the evidence, ie articles that take a broader view and show that the NRA is also quiet when it's a non-miniority gun owner who suffers, it's clear this is a larger issue. I think a separate section on miniority outreach (and lack there of) would also be a good section. In that section we can discuss how many laws the NRA supported in the past were seen as targeting minorities. We can also talk about recent adds/messages that might turn off minorities. This would also be a good section to talk about actions the NRA is taking to try to break the old white man's club image. Discussing these topics as anti-black is too narrow even if we include answer's to the critic's claims. It both misses the forest for the trees and presents a very non-nuanced telling of the events. Springee (talk) 14:16, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

That seems like a different criticism from the one being offered in most of the editorials on Philando Castile - it might also be worth mentioning, but the accusation of racial bias appears to have been the more prominent interpretation.
Like I said: it really doesn't matter whether or not we think the accusations of racial bias are incorrect or unfair to the NRA, it is a significant viewpoint and so it should be mentioned as an opinion that is held by some critics of the NRA.
Snooganssnoogans, yes, I'm suggesting that the first and second paragraphs could be merged (they are somewhat redundant), and that the third paragraph could be replaced with the one I suggested on more general criticisms of the NRA's record on racial issues. Three full sentences from Adam Winkler probably aren't justifiable. You can make a case for getting the general thrust of his criticisms, but recounting multiple supporting anecdotes seems like the deck is being stacked in his favor. Nblund 16:40, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

COMMENT...If an organization supports gun control it is a racist organization. The NRA supported gun control in the 1920s and 30s. Therefore it is a racist organization. If this is true then the Democrat Party and the NAACP must be the most racist organizations in the history of the USA, because they support every gun control law ever proposed. This is a stupid flawed illogical argument, it doesn't matter how many ANTI-NRA news papers report it. If it passes here, then the same (they are racist) text can be added to every so called civil rights and news organization on WIKI because they all support gun control.--RAF910 (talk) 17:11, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

I would relocate this to a more appropriate section, but there is no sub-header for "incoherent rambling." --JBL (talk) 15:13, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
@Niteshift36: the one that was inexplicably moved by its original poster without explanation despite having been responded to. (But you could have figured that out yourself with 30 seconds of looking at the history for the page.) I have now reassembled the chain in a sensible location. --JBL (talk) 16:25, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
"critics have claimed this is due to racism" I have a concern that, simply by repeating the allegation, we give it weight it doesn't deserve. What I've seen so far is an attack on the NRA couched in racial/racist terms, because that makes the NRA the bad guy, when NRA's actual behavior isn't clearly racist (&, indeed, may not be racist in any fashion, except, perhaps, by accident). I daresay most of the sources accusing NRA of racisim have no interest in being genuinely even-handed, either to gain points with racial minorities or with anti-gun lobbiests. That being true (& it may well not be), WP should not be giving them a platform, nor an implicit endorsement. TREKphiler 11:16, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Canvassing

Is this WP:CANVASSING? Seems inappropriate. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:41, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Do you even bother to read what you post? WP:Canvassing clearly states that it is appropriate.

"Appropriate notification

An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion can place a message at any of the following: The talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects or other Misplaced Pages collaborations which may have interest in the topic under discussion."

Now I didn't come from any talk page rather from you reverting my edits. But the way you responded to everyone who opposed and how you're treating this defeat is really inappropriate. AlaskanNativeRU (talk) 20:26, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

AlaskanNativeRU, I can't speak for Snooganssnoogans here, but: although the original notice was appropriate, the response from Limspcash may have been inappropriate because it was not neutrally worded. I don't think its likely to sway the outcome here and I doubt the user intended to skirt the rules, but notices shouldn't read like someone trying to round up a posse. Nblund 20:35, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
The user Limspcash not only misrepresents the RfC but is blatantly asking users to come here and vote in a certain way. That's canvassing. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 12:21, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Notifying the project most directly involved in this topic is completely appropriate. His summary aside, the actual request was to "comment" on the talk page, not to support anything. Quit grasping at straws. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:21, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
  • "His summary aside"? Are we supposed to just ignore what the editor wrote? (SEE ). "There seem to be a move to call the NRA a racist organization because they didn't immediately condemn a police shooting to satisfaction of anti-police, anti-gun, anti-NRA writers." This is typically referred to as Poisoning the well. DN (talk) 00:57, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • I don't dispute that he should have been a bit more neutral, but let's be honest...it was at the Firearms project. Do you honeslty think it "poisioned" that many opinions there? Had he said the same thing at the Film project talk page since this article mentions movies, I may be a bit more concerned. As it stands, he was essentially preaching to the choir. In addition, your "problem" essentially implies that editors at the firearms project wouldn't be capable of coming here and reading on their own that "There seem to be a move to call the NRA a racist organization because they didn't immediately condemn a police shooting to satisfaction of anti-police, anti-gun, anti-NRA writers.". Niteshift36 (talk) 15:28, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Separately, it's not clear whether "anti-police, anti-gun, anti-NRA writers" (emphasis mine) are sources being used or Misplaced Pages editors participating in this discussion. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:17, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
Niteshift36, I don't agree that the firearms project is most directly related to this. What about WikiProject Discrimination? Frankly the hostility of both the summary and some of the responses here don't reassure that this wasn't canvassing. Prinsgezinde (talk) 18:40, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
  • You may not agree, but do you see anything on this page about the article being part of the firearms project? Yes, yes you do. Do you see anything about the discrimination project? No. You are focused on a single (inflated) issue, rather than the larger article. The article about the National RIFLE Association is most certainly most directly related to the Firearms project. And again....how "poisoned" is the well at that point? Niteshift36 (talk) 19:03, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Comparison to NAD & NAACP

I removed this statement from the article:

References

  1. "NAD is the Oldest Civil Rights Organization in the USA!". National Association of the Deaf. 2014-01-30. Archived from the original on 2014-02-10. Retrieved 2014-05-30. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  2. "NAACP: 100 Years of History". National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. 2009. Archived from the original on 2010-08-12. Retrieved 2014-05-30. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

This looks like OR / SYNTH based on primary sources. I don't believe it's suitable for inclusion. If a secondary source made this comparison, then maybe, but not in the current form. Please let me know if there are any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:23, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

There are quite a few stores comparing them ever since the NRA made that claim. Even the NAD had to write up a retort to the NRA here http://nad.s1001.sureserver.com/blogs/01/30/2014/nad-oldest-civil-rights-organization-usa Plus other stories like http://deafnetwork.com/wordpress/blog/2014/02/21/nad-is-the-oldest-civil-rights-organization-in-the-usa/ and https://www.salon.com/2017/05/07/no-the-nra-is-not-actually-the-united-states-oldest-civil-rights-organization/ That was just searching for links to the NRA and NAD. Probably more when you include the NAACP. ContentEditman (talk) 03:40, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 19 February 2018

Dear Misplaced Pages i believe your information is false and inaccurate Sincerely Hector #freescubasteve — Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.174.253.76 (talk) 17:06, 19 February 2018 (UTC)  Not done it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. PackMecEng (talk) 17:10, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 February 2018

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change This: Observers and lawmakers see the NRA as one of the top three most influential lobbying groups in Washington DC. Over its history the organization has influenced legislation, participated in or initiated lawsuits, and endorsed or opposed various candidates.

To: Observers and lawmakers see the NRA as one of the top three most influential lobbying groups in Washington DC. Over its history the organization has influenced legislation, participated in or initiated lawsuits, and endorsed or opposed various candidates. The NRA has used its financial might to invest in scholarship and research to reframe the intent of the 2nd Amendment from protecting the rights of states to protecting the rights of individuals, despite the clear intent of the Constitution's authors. This reinterpretation, which the American people have fallen for, is now commonly accepted and is the greatest barrier to reasonable gun control legislation. The NRA has convinced Americans that the constitution protects their right to not just own an assault weapon, but to own multiple assault weapons and sufficient ammunition to enable the slaughter of their fellow Americans. When the second amendment was written, an 'arm' was a musket. Not an AR-15.

″The Gun Lobby’s interpretation of the Second Amendment is one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word fraud, on the American People by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime. The real purpose of the Second Amendment was to ensure that state armies – the militia – would be maintained for the defense of the state. The very language of the Second Amendment refutes any argument that it was intended to guarantee every citizen an unfettered right to any kind of weapon he or she desires.″ – Warren Burger, Conservative Supreme Court Chief Justice TheTruthWillBeTold (talk) 02:03, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Please read WP:NPOV. 331dot (talk) 02:06, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

This article looks highly biased in favor of NRA

Its officers. It's safety program. It's legislative efforts. Etc. Etc. A person reading this who has not been following the news recently might think all is well and rosy with the good 'ole NRA when the truth is that there is terrific anger following these mass shootings, like maybe more than half of the US population. That is, anger among the people still living who haven't yet been shot. Maybe a POV tag is needed at the top.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 02:18, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

There is a Criticism section. Things can always be improved, but this can't be turned into a hit piece against the NRA either. 331dot (talk) 02:21, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
Yes, the criticism section is safely buried deep in the article text. Of course we need to be fair, but the way this article reads right now is like a pink party dress covering up Charles Manson.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 02:43, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
So if the page doesn't say the NRA is a tool of Satan, if not, indeed, Satan, you won't be satisfied? TREKphiler 02:57, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
I don't think any of these exaggerations are going to help. Prinsgezinde (talk) 10:01, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment -- I share the concerns expressed by the OP. Let's work on making the article more neutral. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:08, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
  • I think "more neutral" is something that will require more detail. While there are a lot of accusations leveled against the organization it's not clear how many of those are based on sound reasoning vs emotion. This is a politically charged topic. It's possible we will have people who agree the article is biased but in opposite directions! Anyway, it may be true but specifics are needed here. Springee (talk) 03:54, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
    • A couple of issues that should probably be addressed with greater thoroughness: (1) NRA $$$ going to candidates and politicians -- will these donations have a negative effect on their reelection prospects? (2) will NRA positions change because of these shootings? (3) money flows coming into the NRA -- from where, from who (gun manufacturers? hunters? etc), how much? how will these change after these shootings? (4) how will the NRA react to increased public anger following the mass shootings? These are a few issues; there are many more; right now, the article looks like it was written by NRA public relations people.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 10:13, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
Then same issues, but use past tense.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 00:26, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Example

I’ve been asked to be more specific above. This could be such an example; please see this diff which removed a sentence from the lead, with the edit summary: “…This is a short-term ‘issue’ over the course of the history of the org”. The sentence removed was:

  • The organization has become the focus of intense criticism in the wake of repeated mass shootings.

References

  1. Cite error: The named reference twsUSAToday11 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. Cite error: The named reference twsAJC11 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. Cite error: The named reference Hickey130116 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

I don’t see its inclusion being WP:RECENTISM; it’s not a passing topic and seems highly relevant. See for example: "NRA CEO says legislation regulating guns won't prevent mass shootings: In rare interview, Wayne LaPierre decries effort to 'politicize' the Las Vegas shooting", Politico:

  • House and Senate Democrats have renewed efforts to put legislation expanding background checks, among other things, to a vote in Congress in response to the Nevada shooting that left at least 59 dead and more than 500 injured — the deadliest of its kind in modern U.S. history. LaPierre said the backlash compelled his organization to make the announcement on Thursday. “The other side has been so outright trying to politicize this tragedy that we did feel the need to speak out today on this whole bump stock issue,” he said.

So even the NRA is acknowledging the backlash. This content is pertinent in the lead and summarises the body of the article, which includes a discussion of this topic. I plan to restore the edit; please let me know if there are any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:18, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. One well-referenced sentence in a lede section packed with pro-NRA stuff is only a first step in trying to remove the POV in this article.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 00:26, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

The sources listed above are:

1 - USA Today
2 - Hindustan Times
3 - AJC

ref names with no links were a bit confusing. But all those sources are specifically Emma Gonzalez not the sources themselves. They all also just focus on this shooting, no mention of repeated mass shootings. I would probably dump the Hindustan Times as not a very strong source. PackMecEng (talk) 04:04, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

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