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Ref & Cite confusion
I've just fixed some broken Ref / Cite links. I've left others unfixed, mostly because I'm not sure how to fix them working from the info in the article, particularly Templeton and Montagu cites. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 05:40, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
add Sociology to discussion of disciplinary approaches
I'm part of the pilot Misplaced Pages Fellows program, and I'm a sociologist. I'm interested in writing a section about the history of sociological thought about race that would go in the Views Across Disciplines subsection. I'll be working in my sandbox, found at AnaSoc AnaSoc (talk) 01:19, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Please, do not forget to cite your sources. Dimadick (talk) 10:33, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
- @AnaSoc: Sounds good! Let me know if I can help at all. Generally, secondary sources like textbooks and state-of-the-literature articles might be the best sources to use. On topics like this, overuse of primary sources often get scrutinized as WP:SYNTH. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:23, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
I added a section on the history of sociological thought on race as a system of human categorization. I am looking forward to comments and suggestions. AnaSoc (talk) 01:24, 19 February 2018 (UTC) Thanks to BradleyZopf for the suggestions of sociologists who theorized about racial classification systems.AnaSoc (talk) 01:43, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
race
According to "The Journey of Man" there is so such thing as race. This is genetics.
Sherry Schaller Marshall Assistant Professor — Preceding unsigned comment added by SSMarshall (talk • contribs) 19:15, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
As a social construct
I've restored the term social construct to the lead section based on the relevant entry in the Encyclopedia of Race, Ethnicity, and Society, SAGE, 2008 (p. 1091). To wit:
In contemporary scholarship, four main concepts characterize race. First, race is socially constructed This means that race is not an intrinsic part of a human being or the environment but, rather, an identity created using symbols to establish meaning in a culture or society.
—Sangdeboeuf (talk) 02:06, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- You added mention of it in a different way than it was before. It doesn't start with "As a social construct," and not starting like that is an improvement. I don't have an issue with what is there now, except that "shared physical traits, ancestry, genetics, and social or cultural traits" is replaced with "shared physical or social qualities into categories." Furthermore, the lead already stated, "Although such groupings lack a firm basis in modern biology, they continue to have a strong influence over contemporary social relations."
- SMcCandlish, thoughts? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:20, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- Yeah, any changes to that material are apt to be controversial and should be discussed in detail (calmly). There are many "camps" on the matter, and even seemingly simple changes can result in objections on the basis of things the changers hadn't considered. I'm not personally having an overwhelming reaction one way or other, mind you. However, I think it's best if the material in the lead reflects diversity of opinion on the matter. We shouldn't say something like "race is a social construct", but rather indicate that many sources treat it as such. If some of the sources (that aren't fringe, or old which in this context amounts to fringe because old science gets replaced with new science) specifically bring up genetics and culture, we should not lose those terms (though ancestry = genetics). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 10:22, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
What is with this completely unscientific attitude to this article?
There are actual reports on actual human gene clustering who happen to overlap with phenotypes of "race" and a few select people completely remove this information? If a study is countered by another study then talk how the study A says X and study B contradicts X. Don't remove A altogether because of own agenda. There are plenty of studies actually following up on A in the literature that explain why X exists. Nergaal (talk) 15:00, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
- We have an article on human genetic clusters, that describes in some depth the challenges of using genetic clusters as if they are directly relevant for the question of races as biological groupings. The current article also describes this debate, though perhaps we could summarize that article better here - but simply reproducing Rosenberg et al's findings as if they are conclusive is not the right way to do this.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:07, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
- Well, I see that the current state of the article states that race has no roots in biology, which for several years now has been more and more countered. I am sure the entire article is in pitch perfect shape of actual most recent scientific research, and is not instead the representation of the personal opinion of a few select editors. Nergaal (talk) 15:14, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
- And no, Nicholas Wade is not an neutral or reliable source for anything having to do with the relation between racial categories and the genetic sciences (read here how scientists have received his work). You clearæly do not actually know what the standing of this question is in the literature or in the relevant scientific fields.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:16, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
- You are the one who are selecting a couple of sources that argue in favor of biological race without having any apparent clue of their actual scientific standing or how they have been received. That is unscientific cherry picking in the extreme, and is the wrong way to write a balanced informative article.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:19, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Oh, turns out you really wanted to prove me right. I love how a new article actually just happen to appear again in NYT just two days ago: With the help of these tools, we are learning that while race may be a social construct, differences in genetic ancestry that happen to correlate to many of today’s racial constructs are real. Have fun making sure you misinterpret the actual consensus amongst the scientific community. I am sure you will prove that the the geneticist at Harvard Medical School has retrieved DNA from more than 900 ancient people. His findings trace the prehistoric migrations of our species is wrong.Nergaal (talk) 15:22, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
- I love how you resort to passive aggressive handwaving and additional cherry picking instead of actually informing yourself.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:24, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
- I see your NYT op ed and raise you with a The Guardian feature article.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:34, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
- "Gavin Evans lectures at Birkbeck College and is the author of several books, including the memoir, Dancing Shoes is Dead. He has written widely on issues of race, IQ and genetics" Or in plain language, he does NOT do research. Anyways, even people who argue against race as an objective genomic classifier use the diagrams you are so quick to ignore. Nergaal (talk) 15:43, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
- You are not mounting an actual agrument here, just a pissing contest. There are hundreds of genetics researchers who disagree that genetic cluster analysis is vindicating the race concept - 140 of them signed the statement rebutting Nicholas Wade. It is absurd to think that Rosenbergs cluster analysis which has been widely criticized as basically one random clustering structure that is an artefact of alreayd having used racial categories in the sampling process, should be featured prominently and with no discussion of the problems and arguments. Noone gets wiser from that. You are the one who is on a crusade here to make it appear as if one side in a complex and controversial debate is "winning", I am telling you that that is not the case, and that we do not help wikipedia or any of our readers by presenting it like that. If you start making some argued proposals for how to change the article and you get consensus for those proposals here - then we can proceed, but continuing with snarky passive aggressive comments and cherry picked sources is a waste of both your and my time.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:56, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
- Nah, this article in its current state is flawed since it starts from the statement "race is a social construct". There is absolutely no mention of genes inherited with intermixing with Neanderthals/Denisovarians/Erectus that happened after "out of Africa" event. There is no mention how some physiologic outcomes are traced from genes that came out of these interbreeding events. Even the least controversial section, "Race and health" completely ignores actual outcomes that are strongly correlated to what people in the field call "Race". If you think that the most important thing of an encyclopedia is to make people comfortable, instead of actually presenting balanced opinions than you are doing a great job. Have fun babysitting this article. Nergaal (talk) 15:59, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
- The most important thing in an encyclpedia is to give a view of topics that is actually representative of the mainstream scientific views on a tpoic and which does not privilege certain random viewpoints that we may personally be attracted to. You seem to be more interested in having it representing a certain hotly contested viewpoint as if it were now the dominant one.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 16:04, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
- Nah, as this opinion puts it nicely, you fight racism with understanding what DNA says, not with ignorance. Right now the article reads like a hit-piece, completely ignoring the most recent research in the field because it has thoroughly been curated by personal views. Nergaal (talk) 16:09, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
- I agree. What is important is understanding what DNA says - and a majority of geneticians do not think that genetics contradict the statement that race is a social construct, or that it validates traditional rwcial categories. Genetics can give us an extremely nuanced and detailed understanding of human biological variation, and reducing that to outdated and socially harmful ideas about racial categories does the exact opposite of making us more informed about human biology or about race. I am no huge fan of the article as it is ow, and I would prefer to rewrite it fro scratch giving a much better and more nuanced picture of both the biology of human genetic variation and ancestry and the historical processes and social dynamics that create racial groups as meaningful social categories . But in practice the hidge podge that is this article is the result of a deadlock between editors who want to represent the biological view of race, and those who dont and there are few possibilities of actually advancing. Fruitless exchanges like this one come up every one or two months, and keep the article in a permanent state of limbo presenting neither side of the argument well and giving a confused view of the issue.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 16:27, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
- Nah, as this opinion puts it nicely, you fight racism with understanding what DNA says, not with ignorance. Right now the article reads like a hit-piece, completely ignoring the most recent research in the field because it has thoroughly been curated by personal views. Nergaal (talk) 16:09, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
- The most important thing in an encyclpedia is to give a view of topics that is actually representative of the mainstream scientific views on a tpoic and which does not privilege certain random viewpoints that we may personally be attracted to. You seem to be more interested in having it representing a certain hotly contested viewpoint as if it were now the dominant one.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 16:04, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
- Nah, this article in its current state is flawed since it starts from the statement "race is a social construct". There is absolutely no mention of genes inherited with intermixing with Neanderthals/Denisovarians/Erectus that happened after "out of Africa" event. There is no mention how some physiologic outcomes are traced from genes that came out of these interbreeding events. Even the least controversial section, "Race and health" completely ignores actual outcomes that are strongly correlated to what people in the field call "Race". If you think that the most important thing of an encyclopedia is to make people comfortable, instead of actually presenting balanced opinions than you are doing a great job. Have fun babysitting this article. Nergaal (talk) 15:59, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
- Fruitless exchanges like this one come up every one or two months, and keep the article in a permanent state of limbo presenting neither side of the argument well This is the expected outcome to the de facto stance you adopt "anything new will not be put in". I am sure every time you or someone like you takes it out you think "I can't possibly expect someone else come in 2 months and mention the same exact thing, since me putting the head in the sand now is what is "a majority of geneticians think". Nergaal (talk) 16:40, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
- You are not attempting to put anything new in. You areb attempting to put a POV in that we have already discussed extensively about how to include. You are also not producing any new arguments, only snarkiness and handwaving. And you are not demonstrating that you have anything more than a passing familiarity with the literature on the topic. So yes, that is what a fruitless exchange looks like. A fruitful exchange would start with actually recognizing that the topic is complex and that your favourite articles may not represent the consensus view.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 17:23, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
As I've been pointing out on the talk pages for related articles, WP:RS specifically discourages us from using isolated studies. Isolated studies are usually considered tentative and may change in the light of further academic research. If the isolated study is a primary source, it should generally not be used if there are secondary sources that cover the same content.
Especially in scientific articles, we're meant to summarize the broad scientific consensus, not to serve as a dumping ground for random one-off studies that gave the results individual editors wanted. If a study is significant, and its results have been borne out elsewhere or its interpretation of the data is broadly-accepted, then it should be easy to find secondary sources elsewhere. --Aquillion (talk) 17:35, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
- I don't think this has to do with an isolated study. A tenured professor at Harvard has publications on this. But if you think "race is a social construct" is what wikipedia "ought" to be about then fine by me. Nergaal (talk) 19:45, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
- There are tenured professors at Harvard who have books about race being a social construct. Please drop the idea that because Reich is at Harvard he represents the final truth. It is an intellectually immature idea. If you take the time to look at the major recent publications in the field, in textbooks that students are being taught after about race and about human biological variation then you have a chance to mount a sensible argument about what is or isn't an isolated study. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 05:03, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
- I don't think this has to do with an isolated study. A tenured professor at Harvard has publications on this. But if you think "race is a social construct" is what wikipedia "ought" to be about then fine by me. Nergaal (talk) 19:45, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
is human categorization by race is pseudoscience?
- eugenics is often deemed a pseudoscience because what is defined as a genetic improvement of a desired trait is often deemed a cultural choice rather than a matter that can be determined through objective scientific inquiry.
- Scientific racism is the pseudoscientific belief that empirical evidence exists to support or justify racism (racial discrimination), racial inferiority, or racial superiority; alternatively, it is the practice of classifying individuals of different phenotypes or genotype into discrete races.
I suggest we add this article to the category pseudoscience and perhaps place a note at the top warning readers the concept is viewed as false by a majority of scientist. Darkstar1st (talk) 14:15, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
- Rosenberg, Noah A.; Mahajan, Saurabh; Gonzalez-Quevedo, Catalina; Blum, Michael G. B.; Nino-Rosales, Laura; Ninis, Vasiliki; Das, Parimal; Hegde, Madhuri; Molinari, Laura (2006-12-22). "Low Levels of Genetic Divergence across Geographically and Linguistically Diverse Populations from India". PLOS Genetics. 2 (12): e215. doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.0020215. ISSN 1553-7404.
{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)
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