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Clarification request: Macedonia 2

Initiated by NeilN at 17:30, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

Macedonia 2 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

• Remedy 29.1.1: Establishing consensus on names

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• NeilN (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Statement by NeilN

Can I get a quick clarification from Arbcom on how they want admins to handle WP:MOSMAC (which has the the force of an Arbcom decision behind it) in light of this. I'm already seeing name changes on some articles contravening "Republic of Macedonia", the full self-identifying official name, will be used in all contexts where other countries would also be called by their full official names. Enforce MOSMAC as usual with reverts until and if the name change becomes official and then change the guideline? I ask because uninvolved admins usually stay clear of naming disputes and "when to change the name" discussions but in this case it's a name mandated by an Arbcom case. --NeilN 17:30, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• I have added an explicit edit and talk page notice: "Editors may not make any modifications to the official name of this country until consensus has determined that the name has officially changed." I have not logged this as I consider it a straightforward interpretation of MOSMAC. --NeilN 19:36, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
• @DeltaQuad: Regarding, "new, equal in scope, consensus emerges" - looking at history, the current consensus was arrived at via a complex three stage process which involved three admins acting as referees. Are you suggesting that the community has to undertake a similar process if an official name change goes through? --NeilN 21:58, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
• @Premeditated Chaos: Might want to define "finalized" or editors will argue over that. --NeilN 00:07, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Illegitimate Barrister

AFAIK, the change is not yet official because the constitution has to be amended. Just keep the name as it is now until the change to the constitution is made official. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 18:31, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Fut.Perf

Like others here, I'd strongly recommend to not change anything for the time being, at least for as long as the change hasn't become official. Once it has, we should probably first have a systematic new naming disucssion/RfC, as there will be quite a few non-trivial issues to decide. Sure, renaming the main article will be a no-brainer, but what about the dozens of other article titles that contain the name? Will all references to the country in running text have to be changed? What about adjectival forms like "the Macedonian government"? Of course, the Greek side is quite insistent that the new name should be used erga omnes, by and towards everybody, and that this is part of the deal, but will the common usage of the English speech community follow this, or will plain "Macedonia" remain in common informal use among third parties? If it does, to what extent should Misplaced Pages's usage reflect the official position? There'll be some consensus building to do and it will take some time. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:56, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by StanProg

We should enforce MOSMAC until the renaming becomes official, which is expected to happen at the end of 2018. When it becomes official we should use the name "Republic of North Macedonia" instead of currently used "Republic of Macedonia". Regarding the adjectival forms "the Macedonian government" or "the North Macedonian government" - this have to be discussed. In the press-conference the Prime Minister Zoran Zaev used the term "Ministry of Health of the Republic of North Macedonia" and "Macedonian healthcare" as an examples. The second thing we should discuss on after it becomes official is the short term "Macedonia" which we currently in use for the republic and it's replacement by "North Macedonia". --StanProg (talk) 19:44, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Izno

must end one month after it is opened should probably be must end no earlier than one month after it is opened--no reason to be so precise. You might also reasonable specify the number of days a month constitutes (or take our common understanding to be the same date one month later). --Izno (talk) 00:33, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by GoodDay

There's going to be a referendum later this year, on whether or not to accept the proposed name change. We shouldn't be changing the name now, per WP:CRYSTAL. -- GoodDay (talk) 13:49, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Sandstein

The proposed motion makes sense. Perhaps it should be amended to clarify that the RfC should not be launched until the naming dispute is considered fully resolved by the authorities of both countries involved. Recent media reports indicate that the Macedonian president intends to veto the new name "Northern Macedonia", so this might still take a while. Sandstein 18:58, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Bellezzasolo

Of course, Misplaced Pages should reflect an accurate, current name. I see that the below motion is currently gaining support, and I do believe it should pass. Since the current policy has the force of ArbCom behind it, it makes sense to have an ArbCom clarification. Regarding a future RfC, others have pointed out that the change is not official yet. If we're going to have a month-long RfC, we should do it as soon as practicable, rather than waiting for the change of name to be signed, sealed and delivered. Of course, the RfC shouldn't go into effect until that is the case. However, if we waited, there will be a month where we are inundated by people trying to change the name. There will be many page protections, plenty of edit warring blocks and a smattering of inconsistencies. If we run the RfC now, we can avoid all that drama. Furthermore, if, as mentioned by several others, this proposal is stopped, then we will have plenty of time to discuss any alternative proposal and no harm is done.

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Macedonia 2: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• Recuse for personal reasons --Kostas20142 (talk) 15:35, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Macedonia 2: Arbitrator views and discussion

• Although agreements have been reached by both governments, it appears that there are still vehement oppositions within both states, so there are still quite a few uncertainties. Therefore I think it would not be wise to change our approach until the name change has been not only finalised but enacted. I would endorse NeilN's suggestion of "Enforce MOSMAC as usual with reverts until and if the name change becomes official and then change the guideline". Alex Shih (talk) 18:27, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
• At risk of sounding like were making a content decision, properly obtained consensus should exist until a new, equal in scope, consensus emerges. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 21:14, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• @NeilN: No, just saying that an RfC of three people should not override the consensus of a large population. Was not specifically referring to the previous RfC. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 04:32, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

• Sounds like a good topic for an RfC. At what point should Misplaced Pages recognise the change to the name? At any rate, while I have an opinion, it's as an editor, not an Arb - this is a little too close to a content decision for my liking Worm(talk) 22:01, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Macedonia 2: Motion

The Arbitration Committee clarifies that Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Macedonia) may be modified by an RfC discussion. The discussion must remain open for at least one month after it is opened, and the consensus must be assessed by a panel of three uninvolved contributors. In assessing the consensus, the panel is instructed to disregard any opinion which does not provide a clear and reasonable rationale explained by reference to the principles of naming conventions and of disambiguation, or which is inconsistent with the principles of the neutral point of view policy or the reliable sources guideline.

For this motion there are 13 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 7 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Enacted: Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 14:26, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Support

1. This clarifies that the arbitration case does not stand in the way of a further RfC, without tangling us up in deciding a content decision. The specifics mirror those of the original case. ~ Rob₁₃ 23:53, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
2. Edited to add: I agree that three admins isn't necessary, three experienced editors in good standing should suffice, admins or not. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 00:13, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
3. I'm not sure that the editors who close the RfC must be admins, but I won't oppose over that. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 22:36, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
4. Support current version, this should be a community decision. Like Callanecc, I don't think we need 3 admins to close, but not worth opposing over. Worm(talk) 16:23, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
5. Support, but also dissent on the three administrators part. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 04:11, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
6. I don’t think three admins will be necessary, but like WTT, not worth opposing over. Katie 11:48, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
7. Also supporting; the three administrators part is probably meant to be consistent with the original case, but 2009 was a long time ago, I think normal editors in good standing these days should be fine. Alex Shih (talk) 13:23, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
8. Support. So long as there are three, it shouldn't matter if they are Admins or not, so long as they are uninvolved. Doug Weller talk 20:06, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
9. I agree that an RfC would be appropriate before the name is changed. I might not be quite so prescriptive about the rules for the RfC, but they don't seem to be controversial, given that no one seems to have objected to the details we have provided, other than ones we have already tweaked. Also, to add something that I hope is obvious, nothing in the old ArbCom decisions or in the naming convention precludes objective discussion of the proposed resolution of the naming dispute itself, including reference to the proposed new name and forms of reference, so long as the current status of the proposals is accurately given. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:05, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
10. As it currently stands. Like the panel of three, don't think they need to be admins. -- Euryalus (talk) 05:38, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Oppose

Abstain

Per my comment to Doug, I'll abstain here as long as we are stating when the RfC can be handled. I'll support any motion that says an RfC is acceptable based upon the recent developments. Worm(talk) 13:40, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Discussion by arbitrators

• In the interests of being specific, should we say "modified by an RfC discussion held after the name change becomes finalized"? Not much point starting it before it becomes finalized, but if we don't say not to, I think there's a risk that people will want to anyway. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 00:02, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • @Premeditated Chaos: I think that's ultimately a decision for the community, but there is certainly support for waiting so far. I'd rather not tie things down that far formally. ~ Rob₁₃ 00:10, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
    • Fair. Also, NeilN, you make a good point. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 00:13, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
      • I've made the changes suggested here and above. Doug Weller talk 13:25, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
        • Doug Weller I came here to support this, but with that change I can't. I won't oppose, but I don't believe Arbcom should be saying "when" the RfC should happen. If the community believes it should be opened tomorrow and come in before the name change is finalized, then that is a community choice. As long as the RfC lasts for a reasonable length of time, so that consensus is not circumvented, then it's down to the community. Indeed, the RfC outcome might be "change when the name is finalized", meaning it can be changed when it becomes official, rather than over a month later. Worm(talk) 13:40, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
        • @Doug Weller: I'd prefer that be proposed as an alternative motion, as I can't support with that change. (Referring to just the timing issue, for clarity. The "at least one calendar month" bit is fine.) ~ Rob₁₃ 13:45, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
          • I've removed that. I'll wait to see if there are many more comments on the timing issue. Doug Weller talk 20:18, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
            • @Worm That Turned: Pinging WTT, since the issue he abstained over is resolved. ~ Rob₁₃ 13:40, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Community comments

Amendment request: Civility in infobox discussions

Initiated by El cid, el campeador at 00:19, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

Civility in infobox discussions arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. You must not start an infobox discussion here

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

• El cid, el campeador (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Bishonen (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Bishonen&oldid=846057026

Information about amendment request

• You must not start an infobox discussion here

• Delete

Statement by El cid, el campeador

Currently, there is a discretionary sanctions notice on the Stanley Kubrick talk page, alerting users not to add an infobox. That, I understand. But, there is also a notice to not discuss infoboxes on the talk page. To me, this goes against everything that WP is built upon, namely robust discussion and consensus-building. The intended purpose of talk pages is to discuss ways to improve the articles. Issuing a gag order on discussion doesn't seem right. Therefore, I propose removing that part of the DS notice.

Statement by Bishonen

The reason I added the sanction at all was mainly the disruption on the talkpage, with new discussions and "straw polls" erupting again and again, draining the energy of everybody who felt constrained to weigh in yet again in order to have their opinion counted. See my full rationale, and support from uninvolved admins, including two arbitrators, in this AE discussion. Bishonen | talk 06:38, 16 June 2018 (UTC).

Statement by Winged Blades of Godric

Just no.WP seems to have a quite-proficient cottage-industry (esp. in this area) wherein there's a tendency to throw the same shit at the same wall, until some of it sticks.Any measure to counteract such activities ought be appreciated.And, time has shown that the infobox discussion(s) over the particular page are nothing but acrimonious and only lead to a hostile atmosphere, with zero development to the content.

Statement by Johnuniq

An edit war is easily handled with protection or blocks. It is the talk talk talk that corrodes the community. The wiki way would be to brawl for another three months, but discretionary sanctions are provided to prevent such unproductive fights. No RfC has found that infoboxes are required so there is no reason to worry that people won't be able to argue until 10 September 2018 when the discretionary sanctions expire. Johnuniq (talk) 03:11, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by GoodDay

We can wait until September 2018. In the meantime, our planet will continue to rotate. GoodDay (talk) 11:44, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by SMcCandlish

It's pretty common for a community consensus to come up with a moratorium on re-re-re-discussing that which was just discussed to death again at the same page. It appears to be within WP:AC/DS parameters for an admin to apply a similar anti-disruption remedy as a discretionary sanction, especially since it's not targeted at anyone in particular, but just puts up a temporary forcefield around two combatant sides so the rest of the peeps are not caught in the continual crossfire and can get on with the real work.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:13, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Civility in infobox discussions: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Civility in infobox discussions: Arbitrator views and discussion

• Considering the full support at Arbitration Enforcement and the 8-2 consensus on the talkpage... I'm not seeing any good reason to modify this. I also don't see an appeal made to AE, not that one is required. If a view can be presenting that this is actually harmful to Misplaced Pages's goals, then we can look at it. If we want to talk about the five pillars and how the fourth is to discuss issues, the community has fought that out already way too often and is why the Arbitration case exists to begin with. If we move on to the fifth pillar, it notes Misplaced Pages has policies and guidelines, but they are not carved in stone; their content and interpretation can evolve over time. So I see this as a very valid interpretation of the pillars and principles of Misplaced Pages. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 04:05, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
• Consensus building isn't happening, so the discussions are endless. I have no problem with this discretionary sanction in this instance, it's clearly defined and does not stop any other discussion on the talk page. It can be appealed in the future, but absolutely, this is the right solution for this article now and I thank the admins (especially Bishonen) for using discretionary sanctions well. Worm(talk) 06:36, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
• Absolutely agree with the above. The talk page was being inundated with constant RfCs and discussions re-hashing the infobox issue for that article, wasting our most precious resources: the time and patience of editors. In the absence of a strong indication that the disruption won't flare right up again, I can't see a reason to remove this restriction. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 07:29, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

• For the above reasons, no. Doug Weller talk 09:05, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
• Definitely no, for reasons already stated. Alex Shih (talk) 13:20, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
• Decline as within administrator discretion. ~ Rob₁₃ 20:56, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
• Decline. -- Euryalus (talk) 21:34, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
• I agree that this request should be closed without action. The wiki way allows open discussion, but that doesn't mean that every issue must be under continuous discussion every day. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:06, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

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