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Heaven for the nobles, Purgatory for the townspeople, Hell for the peasants, and Paradise for the Jews
( )... that the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was known as "Heaven for the nobles, Purgatory for the townspeople, Hell for the peasants, and Paradise for the Jews"?Source:http://ewa.home.amu.edu.pl/Tokarska-Bakir,%20Zydzi%20u%20Kolberga.doc- ALT1: ... that the description of Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth as Heaven for the nobles, Purgatory for the townspeople, Hell for the peasants, and Paradise for the Jews exaggerated the situation of the Polish Jews?
- ALT2: that "Heaven for the nobles, Purgatory for the townspeople, Hell for the peasants, and Paradise for the Jews is a proverb sarcastically describing the society of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?"
Created by Pharos (talk) and Piotrus (talk). Nominated by Piotrus (talk) at 11:24, 1 October 2018 (UTC).
Article is new enough and long enough. So many sources are offline or in different languages that I will blanket AGF on them. It looks like everything is sourced inline. QPQ is done. Hook seems reasonably supported by the article and interesting. Didn't find any plagiarism or copyvio in a few searches. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 18:51, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
Pulled from queue per discussion at WT:DYK#Concern about a 8 November hook. Yoninah (talk) 18:47, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
- Comment. ALT1 is not correct. The controversy is about whether the time period can be called a Golden Age for Jews in Poland, or if that exaggerates the situation of the Jews. The controversy is not settled so don't go for one option in Misplaced Pages's voice. It might be better to go with something like the lead sentence at the Polish version of the page: "Heaven for the nobles, Purgatory for the townspeople, Hell for the peasants, and Paradise for the Jews is a proverb sarcastically describing the society of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth." That sticks to the facts. Please read about the multiple meanings of the proverb here. Then consider whether, with the current worries about anti-semitism in Poland, you want to put this proverb on the main page. StarryGrandma (talk) 01:27, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
- I am totally ok with ALT2 as proposed by StarryGradnma, I just hope it's not too long. It should contain no controversial facts, nor be in inappropriate tone. For referencing purposes, it is described as a proverb here: , and as satirical, here: , and neither of those two terms have been disputed on talk. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:59, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
- Note that the Polish wiki article was created (by Piotrus) after this one was created and was edited by Piotrus and one other editors (this edit). There are still serious NPOV issues with the article (and reverts to keep the tag out), and notability/OR concerns for the full phrase (e.g. - the title of the article (present in the hook) - the phrase in this form is not present in any English language source covering this antisemitic proverb). As for what this means, this is - an "anti-Semitic phantasm" per this, a "pasquinade" that is "saying that Jews had it “too good.”" per , "'17th-century polemic concept condemning the rampant prevalence of infidels" per . As for modern POV - Piotr Wróbel clearly makes clear the various viewpoints around this -
On the one hand, most Poles firmly believe that Poland has always been one of the most tolerant countries in the world and that antiSemitism has existed only on the margins of Polish society. As far as they are concerned, there has been no such phenomenon as Polish anti-Semitism, for Poland has always been a true paradisus Judeorum. On the other hand, most Jews, especially those on the American continent and in Western Europe, claim that Poland is one of the most anti-Semitic countries in the world. Jews have often shared the former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir's belief that virtually all Poles received their anti-Semitism "with their mothers' milk."
. This is not merely an "exaggeration" - it was a call for action against the relative (still overall wretched ) safety of Jews in Poland (until 1648) vs. the rest of Europe - the "paradise" being the relative lack of persecutions. Icewhiz (talk) 06:11, 9 November 2018 (UTC)- Icewhiz, with all due respect, what is the point of your rant? Nobody except you supports either the POV or OR claims. You haven't even clearly suggested what POV issues are in the article, as in, you haven't said 'this claim is not-neutral, and this other claim is missing'. We have added the relatively fringe claim (by a minor scholar, in a minor journal) that the expression "Paradise for Jews" is anti-semitic, but it is clear as day that a ton of other scholars and media sources are using it and nobody thinks it is a major issue. Anyway, this is an issue to be discussed on artice's talk, where, I'll note, nobody supports you (so yeah, the tags removed from the article because you are in minority). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:59, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
- I presented 4 sources above, not one, demonstrating the NPOV issue here (here's another - " its title is taken from an anti-Jewish text, which claims that the good living conditions Jews enjoyed in Poland were something that should change" ). As for "nobody supports you" -this was pulled from the DYK queue for this reason. You yourself removed the various tags (e.g. here) - without consensus on the talk page for doing so.Icewhiz (talk) 07:17, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
- All the issues / sources you have raised here have been discussed on article's talk, where nobody supports you. Many of your sources and arguments HAVE been incorporated into the text, through there is no consensus for the tags you've added, as nobody besides you wants them re-added - likely because, again, all the issues you've raised have been incorporated in the article. If you dissent against the consensus, well, there's no veto power on Misplaced Pages, through as I noted on your talk page, you are more than welcome to edit the article yourself. I encourage you, again, to edit the article, as well as to propose a hook that you'd think would be more neutral, if you have concerns about proposed hook ALT1 or ALT2. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:48, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
- I presented 4 sources above, not one, demonstrating the NPOV issue here (here's another - " its title is taken from an anti-Jewish text, which claims that the good living conditions Jews enjoyed in Poland were something that should change" ). As for "nobody supports you" -this was pulled from the DYK queue for this reason. You yourself removed the various tags (e.g. here) - without consensus on the talk page for doing so.Icewhiz (talk) 07:17, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
- Icewhiz, with all due respect, what is the point of your rant? Nobody except you supports either the POV or OR claims. You haven't even clearly suggested what POV issues are in the article, as in, you haven't said 'this claim is not-neutral, and this other claim is missing'. We have added the relatively fringe claim (by a minor scholar, in a minor journal) that the expression "Paradise for Jews" is anti-semitic, but it is clear as day that a ton of other scholars and media sources are using it and nobody thinks it is a major issue. Anyway, this is an issue to be discussed on artice's talk, where, I'll note, nobody supports you (so yeah, the tags removed from the article because you are in minority). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:59, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
- Note that the Polish wiki article was created (by Piotrus) after this one was created and was edited by Piotrus and one other editors (this edit). There are still serious NPOV issues with the article (and reverts to keep the tag out), and notability/OR concerns for the full phrase (e.g. - the title of the article (present in the hook) - the phrase in this form is not present in any English language source covering this antisemitic proverb). As for what this means, this is - an "anti-Semitic phantasm" per this, a "pasquinade" that is "saying that Jews had it “too good.”" per , "'17th-century polemic concept condemning the rampant prevalence of infidels" per . As for modern POV - Piotr Wróbel clearly makes clear the various viewpoints around this -
- Comment 2 To spell this out more clearly: This Polish proverb comes from the period of increasing feudalism in Poland, with the nobility taking over control of towns and land, worsening conditions for everyone else. It was not meant kindly for either the nobility or the Jews. The proverb links the Jews with the oppressors of the Polish people. At a time of increasing Polish antisemitism I suggest we NOT put this on the main page. StarryGrandma (talk) 08:59, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
- @StarryGrandma: Please note that WP:NOTCENSORED. If an article is neutral, and the hook is neutral, and the article is eligible, there are no reasons not to put this on the front page. The article is now doing a better job explaining some controversies and issues about this proverb, which should help educate the readers about some aspects of antisemitism. Talking about such issues is better than ignoring them. In fact, I am surprised that my ALT1 hook proposal has not been endorsed by those wary of antisemitic POV, as it explicitly draws attention to this very issue, by pointing out that the proverb is not exactly neutral. ==Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:48, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
I would pull this nomination. There's an RM going on for the page, as well as a neutrality discussion on the Talk page. Concerns were also expressed at the DYK Talk page here: . It's not suitable for mainpage at this time. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:11, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree with any suggestion this topic is not legible for a DYK. We should of course wait for RM to finish, as well as to make sure that there is no edit warring and that the article is stable. Unless the topic is deleted, there is no reason for it not to be DYKed, after suitable delay that ensured the article and hook are free of problems. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:48, 11 November 2018 (UTC)