Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Durova (talk | contribs) at 12:28, 16 November 2006 (→Regarding the mention of RFCU on WP:PAIN). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Question

Okay so we setup a new poll here, but can anon users vote? (I'm referring to 138.25.252.110's vote.) Zarbat 05:27, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

They can try. I guess the admin who tallies the responses will look at the anon's history. This seems to be a unique IP with a modest contribution history over quite a few months. I really don't know their standards there - it's hard to call the play from this distance. Durova 05:31, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

11-M

Hi Durova,

Just for the record, I answer Randroide comments,

1)The quotes are not from a blog but are from a forum in the official website of the conspirationists so one that heavily supports Pedro J. I took it from there because if were not true would have been contradicted by the administrators who are known as fanatic supporters of the "cause".

2)Randroide was simulating that he was sincerely interested in the issue so I tried to help him references and tips. I should have not been so moron since he was only trying to evade himself from the fact that El Mundo investigations are completely unsupported by any world class newspaper execept one phrase in one article in the Guardian. Anyway this issue is completely unrelated with the article and I named just to give some context. Randroide engage inmediately as a way to evade.

3)I am a person who normally works with books. If required I can offer books that explain the process that leads to the coup d'etat in 1981 and the implication of LM Anson that is well known here. The problem is that I suspect that Randroide insistence on this is just another way to evade from the main question so I will no be so moron again to engage.

Randroide is trying to use you as you probably have noticed.--Igor21 16:01, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Forums aren't an appropriate source either, but books from reputable (non-vanity) publishers would be fine. It looks like the editors on this page could use some outside input about reliable sources. Not having visited Spain and knowing only basic Spanish, my advice has its limits. I strongly recommend an article content WP:RFC. Regards, Durova 16:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The quotes about Pedro J opinions in the 80s about dirty war against terrorists were published in a magazine and it is given the name of it and the date of publication. Pedro J was the director of the magazine. The forum was not what gives the veracity but just a reference for people accesing instantly. And as I said, in the heavily ideologized website where this forum is, a false and inconvenient statement of one their heroes would not have survived ten minutes.

Regarding LM Anson I will give the source in his own article from fully reliable books to not allow Randroide in his escape from what is being discussed in 11-M. Since Anson's newspaper is just copying El Mundo, his credibility (as low as it is) is not relevant. In fact he left the newspaper some months ago and now works in El Mundo.

I think your help have been unvaluable by establishing that not any published thing in a newspaper is automatically gospel. I will continue proving that El Mundo is doing investigation not supported by facts and that contradicts primary sources thus being of not use here except for "alternative theories" section as has been done in 9/11 with this kind of material. I will read RFC. Thanks. --Igor21 16:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

That post makes me doubt that you understand what I've been saying: it is inappropriate to link to a forum just because one editor considers that more convenient than a proper citation. Likewise, if a given newspaper is generally respected as a reliable source, then Misplaced Pages does not pick and choose which of its stories are reliable (unless other reliable sources subsequently debunked a particular story). Durova 16:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Should I understand that a newspaper article should be quoted even when evidently contradicts the primary source that is also accesible? Should I understand that a single newspaper that has been the one to create the story must be quoted even when nobody else believes such story?--Igor21 17:14, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Copyedit that question just a little bit and it would make a good WP:RFC article request for comment introduction. Durova 17:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

F1 race results

Thanks - sorry to have to raise it again. 4u1e 18:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Not a problem. Please add any new developments to the existing report. That would help another administrator to address the problem if I happen to be unavailable. Because these are unregistered IP addresses it would be inappropriate to impose a permanent ban. Let's hope that a month long block discourages this editor, but I'd be more than willing to renew it (or possibly extend as far as three months) if the problem crops up again. Regards, Durova 18:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Proper places

Hello.

User:Deathrocker, in his talkpage, is claiming I behaved bad (I am referring to his comment against the 48 hours block). My old "friend" Kingjeff is also keeping on claiming that I edit in "bad faith" (see here for some of the other cases in which he called my edits "bad faith"). Where is the correct place to answer to their allegations? I can't keep on checking their edits to defend myself, but at the same time I cannot afford to let them attack me without countering their false (in my opinion) claims.

Best regards Panarjedde 21:13, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I've asked them to raise the matter at WP:RFI if they decide to pursue it. So far they haven't. You might want to bookmark that page. Durova 23:15, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Amended RfC comments

Hi Durova,

Thanks for your amended RfC comments. I tried to explain in the PAIN - but maybe didn't do a good job - that I was under the impression that ever since the Encyclopedia Dramatica controversy, off-Wiki attacks were being taken much more seriously. I also have seen quite a AfD's where an editor pointed out that other editors were soliciting votes off-Wiki, (meatpuppetry) and had never seen anyone object to that documentation as being innappropriate content to post on-Wiki.. Considering all that, I thought that PAIN was an appropriate avenue to pursue, but I guess since there were no corresponding on-Wiki attacks DIRECTLY associated with the off-Wiki attacks, there was no proper place to complain about such an incident. - F.A.A.F.A. 23:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

If the attacks occurred only off Misplaced Pages then the proper thing to do is to raise concerns with the administrators of the other website. I would have looked into the query if you had chosen to supplement that with evidence of Misplaced Pages personal attacks, but you chose not to do so. I don't think this needs going over again because I've already explained it several times. If you need someone to consult on site policies and standards then I recommend Misplaced Pages:Adopt-a-user. Durova 23:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:RFI

WP:RFI seems to be more about direct vandalism and not bad faith editing. Kingjeff 00:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

If it's a content dispute then that board won't resolve it, but if there's been misconduct and rules breaking then it should help straighten things out. RFI is for investigations - things that go into too much depth for WP:AN/I. If it's mostly about content then check out Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. Regards, Durova 06:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Waldorf Education

Durova, I'm sorry I missed this comment:

If you're serious about the allegation that one editor's financial conflict of interest affects the article then I hope you can present supporting evidence. If you do have that evidence - and you may quote me as necessary - then in my opinion as an administrator the appropriate step would be to open a request at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration. Note that I have only read your prose summary of the situation, not actually seen whatever evidence you may have, so this is a conditional recommendation. The dispute appears unlikely to resolve through lesser measures. DurovaCharge! 23:24, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I have evidence. HGilbert is ... (deleted) ... Please have a look and advise me what to do. Thanks! Pete K 04:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Please open an ArbCom request and exercise discretion about another user's identifying personal information. An arbitration clerk can advise you on the proper procedure for providing that sort of evidence. Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration. Regards, Durova 06:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, sorry. Would it be OK to simply ask him to withdraw from editing voluntarily? I don't have a lot of confidence that this would happen, but if presented with the conflict of interest argument, he might see how this appears to others. Would you consider mentioning this to him? Pete K 14:17, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

It's certainly all right to suggest it. Try citing Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest or perhaps (depending on the details) WP:VANITY. Durova 03:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

If you wish to suggest that Misplaced Pages bans doctors from editing articles on medicine, scientists from editing articles on science, teachers from editing articles on education, and so on - because they all have a "financial interest" in the success of the subject in question - well, this is an interesting idea. It must be noted that most encyclopedias actually seek out people with expertise in a subject, rather than people with no experience therein.

Also see WP:VANITY#COI_in_POV_disputes, which suggests that in cases of a POV dispute, "it may be easy to make claims about conflict of interest. Don't do it. This is negative advice, but the existence of conflicts of interest as a fact of life here does not mean that assume good faith is past its sell-by-date. Quite the opposite." Hgilbert 02:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

If a medical doctor edited a Misplaced Pages article so that it read like a public relations release for that particular doctor's medical practice or a university professor edited an article to make it resemble promotional literature for that professor's university then my advice would be the same. A Waldorf school is not just an alternative to public schools or another independent school; its curriculum and philosophy proceed from the worldview and the insights into the nature of the child that Rudolf Steiner has given us in Anthroposophy. That phrase and many others like it violate WP:NOT and WP:NPOV; insistence that the article read this way violates WP:OWN. As an administrator I strongly recommend you reconsider that position and collaborate in accordance with site policies because I would support a request for arbitration related to Waldorf education. Having read the above post, I am now considering opening that request myself. Durova 12:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Durova, it would be great if you did open the request. There has been so much of this sort of thing already from this group, it would look retaliatory if I opened the request. Inability to get a NPOV past the brochure language pushers has caused the Waldorf Education article to be stalled for months now. Pete K 15:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

That passage is "brochure language" because it was taken from the Waldorf companies internet "brochure". It was used in this article by another editor who was critical diff and complained about "anthroposophy" people and how too much stuff is all covered up. diff Pete K changed it to put his own opinion in there or own complaint about what school websites do or don't say, diff, without any source. But you think the part that is sourced has to come out because its too "brochure like" when the section is about what the school literature discloses. Take out the criticism about what it dose or doesen't in school "brochure language" first if you don't want examples of the "brochure language" used in the article. Too many are pointing fingers where they shouldnt'.Venado 18:14, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, but this isn't the issue. The issue is whether there is a conflict of interest here. That brochure language exists in the article is not being contested is it? HGilbert is responsible for at least some of it... and for defending some that was introduced by others. Much of editing goes on in the back pages where language and references are being discussed. As I recall, I put my unreferenced comment in after a discussion that it could certainly be supported by taking a sampling of Waldorf websites. It went in without challenge on the discussion page. I would challenge references that go to brochures and PR material for Waldorf, BTW. Pete K 18:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think your withdrawing, are you? Your a founder of a Waldorf school and your a Waldorf reformist. And you know you cannot do your own sample testing for the articles. Thats original research, everybody knows you cannot do that for articles at wikipedia. That idea is not even very good research for researchers to do, do you think its okay to do a google study, pick some websites, and call it a research source? Venado 19:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, but again this isn't the issue. I have no financial interest in whether Waldorf succeeds or fails. HGilbert does. That's a foul. This issue has nothing to do with whether I do good research or not - it has to do with whether HGilbert has the obligation to step down from editing the Waldorf Education article due to a conflict of interest. That's all. Nobody is suggesting he shouldn't continue editing articles about other subjects. Some of us have to spend hours arguing points with him about the language used here. He has a financial interest in the outcome of those arguments. It's like he's getting paid to argue the points. It's unfair and inappropriate. Pete K 19:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

On this page yYou said you have a book about this issue "in the works". Venado 20:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Durova: the phrase you quoted, in fact the whole section as it stands, was added by other editors, hostile to Waldorf; much of what you might call brochure language has been contributed by a range of editors, including Pete himself. Pete presumably didn't remove it, in fact added to it, because he supports brochure language that "exposes" Waldorf's "real" basis in anthroposophy.

I am astonished at the assumption that I am responsible for what Paka and Pete have done, or that I have defended this. I am astonished at Pete's comment about me being responsible for "some of it" when it has just been revealed that he is responsible for what was quoted as an egregious example of it. Why don't you quote another example of "brochure language", Durova, and we can track down where that one came from? This could be quite revealing. Do you really want to know who has been POV-pushing here? Hgilbert 19:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no financial interest in this article; I am not paid to write material, nor can it have any conceivable influence upon my income. Pete has a special personal interest in Waldorf being maligned, representing a clear conflict of interest which I'd rather not bring up here but am willing to if we are exploring this topic; he knows what I mean. Much of what Pete spends hours defending is "brochure language" and/or purely his own personal opinion, with no verifiable basis. The example quoted above is indefensible; why does it still stand? Hgilbert 19:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Anyone can look at the discussion pages and the edits and determine for themselves whether or not you have been defending brochure language Harlan. The article is filled with it and you've been fighting to remove the advert tag. Excuse me, but I am unable to find the diff you're pointing to that supports your claim that I am responsible for introducing brochure language. Could you provide it again or point me to it? As a Waldorf teacher, you absolutly benefit from how successful this article is in producing new customers to your school's doorstep. Without question. I won't be blackmailed by you, BTW, so if you can prove I would have any financial benefit from Waldorf's success or failure, bring it on. You don't, however, and want to tie my divorce into this. I have no financial ties to Waldorf - I don't even pay tuition. Whatever your mind has conjured up is of no relevance to this discussion - and I'm not giving you permission to bring details about my personal life here - but if you have something that you feel constitutes a financial conflict of interest and feel you can prove this, we can discuss it. You are a Waldorf teacher and you are producing brochure language on an article that can benefit you financially. This has nothing to do with POV pushing - it has to do with conflict of interest... and that conflict of interest in your case is clear and undeniable. Pete K 20:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The article has a lot of brochure language; it seems (according to Venado's research) that you and Paka are responsible for some of the worst of it. I'm waiting for Durova, a presumably objective observer, to find another egregious example so we can see who was responsible for that one.

You seem to have a financial interest vis a vis your planned book and a non-financial but extremely personal/emotional investment due to the aspect of your personal life you don't wish me to bring here. Perhaps you should withdraw from the article. I have no financial interest in this article. Hgilbert 22:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

We should note that Hgilbert has not suffered this reticence to discuss other people's personal lives in the past. In fact the reason Pete checked out what was going on with these articles on wikipedia articles in the first place, and got interested in editing them, was that someone (me) told him Hgilbert was over here spreading all kinds of ridiculous (and false) rumors about Pete's personal life.DianaW 23:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

LOL! You demanded that I specify details about the personal nature of PLANS people's conflicts of interest, actually, Diana, which is how Pete's name came into it - I regret having agreed to give his name. The conflict of interest is still valid, though I had one detail wrong about a particular part of a legal agreement that doesn't affect the case at hand, or the general conflict of interest. Hgilbert 23:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

There is NO conflict of interest on my part. I not only don't work for Waldorf, I have no financial contact with Waldorf or any Waldorf teachers or the Anthroposophical society. I don't think future plans to write a book, even if they come to fruition, constitute a conflict of interest before the book is written. I'd be happy to get a ruling on this by Misplaced Pages. However, once again, YOU have a conflict of interest. You work as a teacher for the school system you are promoting with this brochure language. The case is clear cut. Who said what, when and where doesn't matter at this point. Pete K 23:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Administrator blows referee whistle - the bottom line here is that Misplaced Pages's goal of providing encyclopedic information is not being achieved at this article. Productive collaboration is not occurring there, hasn't occurred in months, and people's energies are going to waste. Anyone can open a request for arbitration. Someone who knows all the angles of this dispute could open it better than I could (I'd be neutral but I'd probably miss some significant aspects). So first, consult an arbitration clerk - they're the experts on arbitration. You may mention my name as an administrator who recommended arbitration although I have no direct influcence on whether the committee actually accepts the case.

On a side note I do recommend recusal from articles whenever an editor's personal feelings interfere with objective contributions. For example, I never edit 9/11 or World Trade Center because my nearest relative was one of the last people to escape from the Twin Towers alive. I joined the armed forces and went to war because of that day - so while there's obviously quite a bit I could say on those subjects I wouldn't be good at collaborating. With due respect for the editors at Waldorf education, that's an example I'd like to hold forward for others to consider emulating. Durova 01:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

"LOL! You demanded that I specify details about the personal nature of PLANS people's conflicts of interest, actually, Diana, which is how Pete's name came into it." Nope. You were over there stating that Waldorf critics (whom you did not think were listening; you'd been trashing critics for awhile without anyone opposing this) had no credibility because they were mostly people who did not have custody of their children! *Completely* untrue - pure invention. You were not discussing "conflicts of interest" regarding editing of these articles because no critics were editing those articles at that time - and had never previously. I incredulously demanded to know who you were talking about, never dreaming you'd pop names into the conversation - since there aren't ANY critics who fit that description - not one. I noticed later that you tried this, "I so deeply regret that she goaded me into naming names" excuse, but it's phoney baloney.DianaW 02:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

My post

What disturbs you about it? Arrow740 06:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Diff, please. Durova 13:45, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Can you please tell me clearly what bothers you about my post? Also where is the personal attack noticeboard where I can read the complaint that was made against me? Arrow740 07:27, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I found the noticeboard. However I still request that you explain your post. I have a question for you. Let us assume (for the sake of discussion) that itaqallah is a bully. Am I allowed to say that to people he bullies? Also, none of his posts to the noticeboard constituted a "slur" against Islam. I said: "The fact that your religion forces critics to use the internet as their medium..." Is there something untrue about this? The internet critics who are cited in the articles itaqallah and I have been struggling over receive hundreds of death threats from Muslims. Arrow740 07:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd be glad to explain it if you would give me a link to the relevant post. Durova 00:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your input

Thank you for taking part in my RfA. The RfA was not successful, mostly because I did a pretty bad job of presenting myself. I'll run again sometime in the next few months, in the hopes that some will reconsider.

In the meantime, one of the projects I'm working on is A Wikimedia Administrator's Handbook. This is a wikibook how-to guide intended to help new administrators learn the ropes, as well as to simply "demystify" what adminship entails. If you are an administrator, please help out with writing it, particularly on the technical aspects of the tools. Both administrators and non-administrators are welcome to help link in and sort all of the various policies regarding the use of these tools on wikipedia in particular (as well as other projects: for example, I have almost no experience with how things work on wiktionary or wikinews). Users who are neither familiar with policy or the sysop tools could be of great help by asking questions about anything that's unclear. The goal is to get everything together in one place, with a narrative form designed to anticipate the reader's next question.

A second project, related but not entailed, is a book on wikimedia in general, with a history of how various policies evolved over time, interesting trivia (e.g., what the heck was "wikimoney" about?), and a history of how the wikimedia foundation itself came about and the larger issues that occurred during its history (such as the infamous "Spanish Fork").

Again, thanks for your input on the RfA, and thanks in advance for any help you might be able to provide for the handbook. --SB_Johnny||_books 12:58, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

As you can see, my time has been spread very thin lately. Post here with specific requests about how to prepare for your next RFA and I'll do my best to coach. Regards, Durova 03:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

You helped choose Islam as this week's WP:AID winner

Thank you for your support of the Article Improvement Drive. This week Islam was selected to be improved to featured article status. Hope you can help.

Dev920 13:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

User John Spikowski

Thank you for your help. We already tried to talk to him several times (in fact this goes now on for more then 2 years outside of Misplaced Pages). We also made attempts to resolve this on Misplaced Pages like but he refused to see the facts (as in his recent attack). He decelerated peace just to start the fight again. His "Group" consists of only one person and he tries to make our lives as hard as possible. For example he removed our mailinglist from Nabble where he is now banned and he has his "forum" on his site where he and his sock puppets "talk" . alicia, JS and admin are the same person. I am aware that these are outside issues but I just wanted to show you that he is not a normal troll, because he will not go away (we already ignored him for 3 month). Please tell us what we can do. I am tiered of the daily look on the watchlist just to find out that he vandalized (as ) the page of PanoTools, removed links (24.17.56.230 is his IP address) or started a new article to flame ). Any advice would help. Thx. --Wuz 14:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

In that case a guideline worth looking into is Misplaced Pages:Disruptive editing. The WP:RFC I suggested at WP:PAIN could help one way or another: either by (one would hope) breaking the deadlock with fresh input from uninvolved editors or by establishing consensus for further administrative action. I suggest if you need to follow up (and you probably do) open your next report at WP:RFI. That's really designed for the more complex situations such as this. Best wishes, Durova 01:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

hi

hi um im bored want to talk about sometnig like, how the heck do you put a photo on your user page reply to user talk: Yes my name is sarah please.

Misplaced Pages:How to edit a page. Durova 12:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the mention of RFCU on WP:PAIN

Hello Durova. I noticed that on the WP:PAIN case you suggested a request for checkuser on an account that the other party thought had a sock. I would like to extend a friendly warning that unless the user has some evidence other than a name match, this kind of report may be taken as fishing by dmcdevit or another CU administrator. Just thought I'd give a friendly notice. Take care. ✎ Wizardry Dragon 01:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually I was referring to a suspected sockpuppet report, where standards are a little more flexible. Durova 12:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for stopping by again

Durova, as far as I remember you were involved a bit in the Robert Spencer way back. User:Arrow740 argues that he is a reliable source for wikipedia . Furthermore, he calls Academic scholars like Patricia Crone and Michael Sells as silly scholars . I would be thankful if you could comment on that. Also, his edits are getting kind of uncivil towards Prophet Muhammad: "he had a mission as a egomaniacal anti-Semite with an unhealthy lust for booty. Report the facts, not excessive interpretation and biased wording of pro-Islam scholars." Please note that the pro-Islam scholars whom he is refering is the Encyclopedia of world history , Oxford University Press. He is calling Prophet Muhammad anti-semitic. --Aminz 06:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

In context I think the appropriate double entendre to be topical. Also it says a lot about Aminz that he capitalized Academic. I'm looking at Spencer's two most famous books now. One is published by Regnery, a 60 year old subsidiary of Eagle Publishing, and the other is published by Encounter books, which seems to publish lots of reasonable authors like Spencer, but seems pretty prominent. He is also published by Prometheus. He's a best selling author and an excellent scholar. If he is a hired polemic so is Carl Ernst. You can't expect the ivory tower to look fondly at someone who eschewed getting a PhD from it and isn't an apologist for Islam. Anyway the Islamic Studies departments at major universities are left-wing groups, so this is the pot calling the kettle black. Muhammad was anti-Semitic. After assuming power in Medina he exiled two Jewish tribes, and as to the third, he beheaded all the men and sold all the women and children into slavery. The Quran contains numerous anti-semitic statements that shape Muslim views of Jews to this day, including that some were turned into monkeys by God. The sahih hadith say that they are sons of pigs and dogs, etc. Arrow740 09:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Durova, He says :"The Quran contains numerous anti-semitic statements that shape Muslim views of Jews to this day". From an academic point of view this view has no support (it for example contradicts Bernard Lewis and Mark Cohen and all other scholars) and from the perspective of wikipedia, it is incivility. --Aminz 10:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

They might disagree but it is a fact. Muslim kids in Egypt are told that Jews are the descendants of pigs and dogs. That is a fact, and they showed videos of it on CNN this very day. Therefore, I'm right. Arrow740 10:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Please see the discussion here. There's one thing I'd like to add to it. Ernst is inside the establishment, Spencer is outside. Spencer is much more influential. That's it. They are both scholars. Arrow740 10:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Durova, He is now accusing prophet muhammad as anti-semitic, the position which no *scholar* have ever taken. Anti-semitism was a western phenomenon. See what kind of editors I have to deal with. P.S. some academic quotes:

"There is nothing in medieval Islam which could specifically be called anti-semitism", Claude Cahen, a distinguished Islamic historian states by comparing medieval Christendom and medieval Islam. Bernard Lewis states that "In Islamic society hostility to the Jew is non-theological. It is not related to any specific Islamic doctrine, nor to any specific circumstance in Islamic sacred history." --Aminz 10:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

As usual with Aminz, this isn't the place for this discussion. However I will continue it. So there aren't any Muslim anti-Semites, eh? I'll have to store that piece of information in my brain for use later. There might not be an Islamic doctrine promulgating hatred of the Jews per se (though dhimmitude is oppressive and demeaning for all non-Muslims), but the statements are there in the Quran and the hadith, and they are well known. Arrow740 10:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Aminz has ceased to make constructive edits in Criticism of the Qur'an, and did not respond to my questions and comments on the talk page and in the edit summaries before reverting hours' worth of edits wholesale. Isn't there some kind of penalty for that sort of behavior? Arrow740 11:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)