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Vradini citation
Mitsos, it is not a product of my imagination. From Hrisi Avgi's site (near the bottom where the whole Vradini article is included):
- Σύμφωνα με αξιωματικούς της Ασφάλειας Αττικής, ο 21χρονος σοβαρά τραυματίας είχε εμπλακεί σε παρόμοια συμπλοκή στις 21 Μαΐου, τραυματίζοντας μάλιστα έναν αστυνομικό που είχε επέμβει με συναδέλφους του για την αποτροπή του επεισοδίου, ενώ φέρεται ύποπτος για τους τραυματισμούς αλλοδαπών και ατόμων του αντεξουσιαστικού χώρου στην ίδια περιοχή
This is an actual citation from the Vradini article. Translated into english, it is what I added and you reverted. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 22:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I live in galatsi, and I haven't heard anything about a "παρόμοια συμπλοκή στις 21 Μαΐου" or attacks against anarchists. Anyway, what you say about the vradini citation seems to be true. Mitsos 07:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, our personal experiences are irrelevant here. I could also share my own experience of Hrisi Avgi bigotry but that would be pointless. WP:NOR is an official policy of Misplaced Pages. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 13:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I would be happy if you shared your experiance with me. Mitsos 14:17, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
That would be irrelevant to the discussion. After all WP is not a blog... In any case, being physically threatened by a band of stocky neo-nazis just because of a hairstyle is not the fairest of experiences. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 14:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Let me share my experiances with you. When I was at school, an Albanian threatened to send me to the hospital (KAT). I think I 've said something about nortern epirus. Mitsos 17:58, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
That was pretty immature of him. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 18:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I guess. Btw, what's wrong with your hairstyle? You don't seem like a punk to me. Mitsos 18:35, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
There was nothing wrong with my hairstyle. In my humble opinion, there is nothing wrong even with punk hairstyles (which I didn't have, I just had long hair and a goatee). Those guys thought otherwise though, but fortunately I got away with just a scare. And at any rate my hairstyle is none of their business whatsoever. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 18:44, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
PUNKS NOT RED Mitsos 07:38, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Where do we stand?
How can we rate the article? Mitsos 07:43, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
- I've posted requests for comment at Misplaced Pages talk:Greek Wikipedians' notice board and Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Fascism, but apart from a few copyedits and a few additions (such as Galazia Stratia) I haven't seen much feedback. Apart from that, I think it needs a bit of copyediting, grammar and syntax checking and style fixes, and maybe some parts need more attention (for example, I think the Ideology section needs some work). Also, I think the lead section needs more work as per WP:SUMMARY.
- When we get over these, I've been planning to get this article peer reviewed. But I would hesitate to go through that right now, as I don't have much time, due to exams. In general before we ask for a peer review we must be ready to respond to the reviewers proposals. They're not going to be editing, they will be commenting, and we will be the ones fixing stuff. And that takes time I don't quite have right now. In a month or so I'll be much more free (you're also a student you understand what I'm talking about).
- Anyway, what I'm saying is that before we go on to have the article externally (ie from wikipedians other than ourselves) reviewed, we have to make sure that we fix anything we can find (from grammar, to prose and npov). When we do that, we can go get peer reviewed, and if that goes well we go for WP:GAC and then if that goes well even for WP:FAC. But for now, these: WP:IA, WP:TPA, WP:WIAFA, are more important priorities.
- However, on a more informal basis, we could ask some of our wikifriends (such as the people at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject History of Greece) to share their opinions on the article. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 13:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Periandros conviction
I think we shall add hrisi avgi's views on the matter Mitsos 12:35, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
- Go ahead. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 13:13, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Have a look at that: . That's really threatening! Mitsos 13:04, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Ideology
I think this hrisi avgi's press release is very important to define the ideological nature of the organization. Mitsos 12:46, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
- It is of course vital that we add this information (could you do it?). But we must also take into account that most (if not all) mainstream press refer to Hrisi Avgi as a neo-nazi party, not as a nationalist one. My opinion is that we should also refer to it as such, as it is the most widespread term used to describe it. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 13:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Your english is better so you can do it if you want (I think it's vital too). Yes, you are right, the media refer to hrisi avgi as neo-nazi, and therefore we must do the same. Mitsos 13:20, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Kala re paidia, ti sxesh exei h X.A. me tous grizous lykous? 8a mas trelanoune!? Mitsos 13:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Nice artile
I just wanted to say that this is one of the best articles having to do with modern Greek politics that I've read. Of course, there are some problems with the prose, but, in general, this is a very good article! Μπράβο!--Yannismarou 20:37, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
- If you decide to go for GAC and you wish a more detailed review just let me know.--Yannismarou 20:38, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks Yianni! As you probably have read in the section above, I plan to get it peer reviewed/GACed after my exams end (circa October 20). Whenever you have time and you feel like it, any comments and reviews are more than welcome! --Michalis Famelis (talk) 21:05, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Kaname kali douleia ontws. Mpravo se olous!! Mitsos 11:25, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Informal review
Ok! I'm done with some other boring things I had to do for my job and I decided I have time to give this article a detailed review. These are my remarks:
- "in greeklish as Xrisi Aygi". Mmmmmm... I'm not sure this greeklish detail is necessary. I regard it as redundant.
- "The party's symbol was a red flag bearing a black meander pattern ("Greek key") with white trim. An image on its website features a burning cross. Other symbols adopted by Hrisi Avgi members were the national emblem of Greece, the labrys and the celtic cross." I think this paragraph is redundant in the lead. Since you say that it has "openly espoused Nazi-like symbols", then there is no reason to go into further detail in the lead. Discuss this things in another section in the main prose.
- "Nikolaos Michaloliakos with a group of devotees, started publishing the Hrisi Avgi magazine." Who is he? Inform the ignorant reader immediately when you refer his name. For instance (I don't really know his profession!), "Nikolaos Michaloliakos, a Greek lawyer and far-right politician .... ". Have always in mind that, when you write an article, you are always addressing to ignorants and that you have to explain almost everything! Blue or red links are never enough!
- In citations you refer all the time the "Iospress journalist team". So you have to explain what is that. Again the ignorant readers ...
- "He was known for assaulting journalists covering the 1976 trial of Mallios, a police officer who was later convicted for torturing prisoners during the Regime of the Colonels." Citation needed, unless it is the same with the one at the end of the paragraph.
- We do not "quote", but we just "quote". Italics not recommended. I fixed some of these quotes.
- "The characteristics of the magazine and the party were clearly National Socialist." I would like another citation here further to Ios. Ios is fine, but it has a specific ideological orientation. Thus I think this argumentation should be backed with at least one more citation from another source.
- Before "Gaining momentum: 1991-1992" you have four or five parphs without a title. I think this could be a the first subsection of "History" section under the title "Establishment of the party" or something like that. In these sub-section you can put the details with the symbols, which are now in the lead.
- In line citations go straight after the punctuation and without a gap between the punctuation and the citation. You are not consistent. And sometimes you forget the punctuation, especially after the quotes, or you repeat it before and after the quotes. I did some corrections.
- I think the paragrpaph in "Gaining momentum: 1991-1992" about the first assaults of Hrysi Avgi needs more details and further sources and documentation. It is delicate issue and more well-grounded analysis is needed, in order to avoid accusations of POV against Hrysi Avgi.
- "a year later, under another prominent party member, Antonis Androutsopoulos, known as Periandros, would assault the student Dimitris Kousouris." Citation needed.
- "A few members of Hrisi Avgi took part in the Bosnian War in 1995 as members of the Greek Volunteer Guard (abbrev. GVG, Greek: "Ελληνική Εθελοντική Φρουρά" , ΕΕΦ), part of the "Drina Corps" of the Army of Republika Srpska." Citation needed in order to establish the relation between Hrysi Avgi and the Greek Volunteer Guard.
- At the end of "From 1992 onwards" you have two one-sentence paragraph. This is not recommended. Merge or expand. I think the paragraph about the "staunchly homophobic stance" of Hrisi Avgi could be expanded with more details. Elaborate a bit on this issue with more sources if necessary.
- I'm a bit concerned about the sources (I think it is already clear!). They are mostly Greek sources from Greek online sources (Eleftherotypia most of the times). Well Greek sources are Ok, but more sources written in English would be recommended. If a non-Greek evaluates the article for GAC or FAC and sees mostly in Greek written sources he can't read, he will have doubts about the verifiability of these sources. So I think you should search more English-written sources.
- I had a proble to link to the articles of Kathimerini you citate. Something is probably going on with the URL. By the way, when you citate an inline source, try to include all the necessary information (author if there is one, title if there is one and date it was retrieved).
- Section "Ideology" has serious problems. In articles trying to get GA or FA long and numerous quotes are not recommended. They interrupt the prose. Get read of these long quotes and turn them into prose, utilizing their content. It would also be nice (but not absolutely necessary) to find more sources about Hrysi Avgi's ideology apart form Michaloliakos' interview.
- "Galazia Stratia" and "Eurofest 2005" are stubby. Expand or merge.
- The whole section "Illegal activities" need some copy-editing and a slight rewriting because of the many one-sentence paragraphs.
- In this section again try to documentate your assessments and arguments, because these are serious accusations against Hrysi Avgi and, if they are not well-grounded, they could be judged as POV. Also try always to mention what the altera pars ("Hrysi Avgi") says for these accusations and how it defends itself. Try to be as objective as possible. A nice way to do that is to imagine that you are in the middle of a confrontation, you are completely ignorant of both sides' arguments and you are just trying to unriddle the puzzle keeping a distance.
- Alphabetize categories at the end of the article.
- I think "See also" section is redundant. One link is already linked within the main prose and the two others could be also easily linked somewhere in the main prose.
- The caption of the Party's logo could be more informative. What does this logo symbolizes?
These are my remarks for now. When you go for a peer-review, I may come up with more ideas.--Yannismarou 14:40, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
- Gee, Yanni, real good review! There is much in what you mention I wouldn't see. (One of these is the "''quote''" thing I devised myself, but if you think it's crippled you know better -you've made some FAs in your time) I really don't have time to adress the issues now; in fact I should be studying pulse-width modulation and buck converters now instead of replying here :( When I get the time I'll try my best. In the meanwhile, Mitsos could you take a look and see if you can fix anything?
- A note here: I won't go into detail but most of the things you requested citations for are sourced at inlines a little further down.
- There is one thing that bugs me a lot: the references issue. I don't quite know where to go apart from Eleftherotypia and the greek press in general. If anyone could suggest any good (english) sources we'd be extremely grateful... Anyhow, some (really) intense googling will have to happen sooner or later. Again, thanks Yannis!! --Michalis Famelis (talk) 22:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't thik this: The party's symbol was a red flag bearing a black meander pattern ("Greek key") with white trim. An image on its website features a burning cross. Other symbols adopted by Hrisi Avgi members were the national emblem of Greece, the labrys and the celtic cross." I think this paragraph is redundant in the lead. Since you say that it has "openly espoused Nazi-like symbols", then there is no reason to go into further detail in the lead. Discuss this things in another section in the main prose. is a problem. Also I don't agree with the quote thing. It's alright with everything else. Mitsos 14:14, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
- The quote thing is not my opinion. It does not matter if I or you agree or disagree. It is a rule of Misplaced Pages. Just check WP:MoS#Quotations. So, if you want this article to go for GAC or FAC, you have to do it this way! You have no choice. No GA or FA "quotes"; they all just "quote"! I insist on that, because I made the same mistake, when I start rewriting Pericles. And during the first peer-review I was recommended not to do that.
- I respect your opinion about the lead and you may be right. I just say that the lead is a summary of the whole article. So, you should ask yourself: Are these details necessary in the lead or should I just transfer them in another section within the article? I don't say I'm definitely right! But just think about it. And about the way the lead works and what it should include, check WP:LEAD.--Yannismarou 14:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
And I think creating an article about michaloliakos woul be a good idea. I 'll try and get you some sources so that some of you can write an article about him. Mitsos
If anyone of you
ever decides to visit Poros, you will have no problem with accomondation: Mitsos 12:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Hrisi Avgi's response
One of the article's references is an article by eleutherotypia, called "Μουντο-Ρατσισμος". It will be interesting to see Hrisi Avgi's response to this article. Mitsos 19:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
KLIK article
I think it should be removed from the external links. It is a blatant propaganda site, anonymous, without an author attribution, nothing. It says that the members of hrisi avgi are "barbarians" and is full of POV. In fact, it's not accurate at all. For example, it says that Dimitrios Zaphiropoulos (the leader of Patriotic Alliance) is wanted by the police!!! It says the same about Kousoumvris, who has now left hrisi avgi. Mitsos 12:29, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
About that Palestinian thing...
I have the sentence that says Kalafolias was attacked because he was wearing the Palestinian thing around his neck. This sounds redicoulus to me. I 've seen members of H.A. wearing it, and making grafitees saying "Long Live Hezbollah and Hamas". Mitsos 20:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Spylab's edits
Spylab, some of the statements that you deleteted are very important. For example, the "For a Greater Greece in a Free Europe" slogan is used very often by Hrisi Avgi. Mitsos 20:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
There are many sources in the article, I 'll try to put more sources in sentences were citation is needed. Spylab, don't remove images and parts of the article. Put citation needed tags and I 'll find sources. Sources are mostly Greek (very few come from Hrisi Avgi's publications) simply because there are no english sources about Hrisi Avgi. Mitsos 09:40, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Disbanded
The party is apparently disbanded. It says so in the article and that is backed up by sources. Why does Mitsos keep making edits indicating it has not been? How can they still publish if they are disbanded? --SandyDancer 10:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
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