Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Hillock65 (talk | contribs) at 03:32, 23 November 2006. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Removed "Green line" regarding metro route to the site. The line's official name is "Syrets'ko-Pechers'ka", while a color on the maps is up to designers of those.AlexPU 09:57, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Removed "The Soviet government used this site for the Stalinist purges of Kievites by NKVD in late 1930s.". Babi Yar was never used by NKVD. It used the village Bykovnya for that. Vervin 10:57, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Not sure, Vervin. I'll check this thoroughly. Anyway, Bykivnya wasn't the only place for such massive executions, otherwise there would be a mountain of corpses there. BTW, your recent remarks to talk pages are supposed to be beneath, not above. Regards, AlexPU 12:09, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In the "Before the Massacre" section there were single square brackets around every instance of the word "Jew". I removed them, since they didn't seem to belong there. If I've inadvertantly committed a great offense, accept my apologies. Plantagenet Palliser 21:49, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Commited by?

I guess every each soldier of einzatzgruppen was the murderer, and none of them is free of guilt. And all the above chain of command are also murderers. Thus, I see no reason to state that one person is to blame. Going to delete the passage if nobody opposes AlexPU

AlexPU, I empatise with your thoughts that "everyone was to blame", but I think in this case is important to mention the name of the commander, for several reasons:

• He was in charge for the Jewish problem in the Baltics.
• I think it is important to mention so people could start writing an article about him as well.

--Pinnecco 02:28, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Photo of memorial

If someone have idea to put photo of one of memorials, you can get it here (photos taken by me). --Yonkie 23:07, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Now documented and proven

I recall reading about the "Ukrainians collaborators" in a reliable source and will not question the validity of this fact. However, i.m.h.o. the following sentence is not a good statement as it requires further information:

The participation of local collaborators in these events, now documented and proven, is a matter of painful public debate in Ukraine.

Where, when and by whom it was "documented and proven"? Without proper references such an statement sounds more emotional than factual.

There is reasonable doubt, whether this alleged incident took place at all. http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndbabiyar.html What is by the way the factual evidence that ~30.000 were killed and burried in the ravine?!

There isn't _reasonable doubt_ that Babi Yar occured. For one piece of evidence, we can refer to the Nazi's own report of the event, http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/osr/osr-101.html. Although there is a mass of speculation on the part of deniers/revisionists, this does not mean there is _reasonable_ doubt about the veracity of the event. 03:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Myths and historic dustbins

The entire Babi Yar story I thought had been consigned to the dust bin of history. Wat-time aerial photos - and post-war photos - and on-site surveys - and ground radar - etc came up with zilch. Isn't there any myth that can be abandoned - folks stick with a few good ones, not ones you have already lost. Embarrassment should eventually lead to accuracy, at least in this one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.105.80.92 (talk • contribs) .

Amazing how there are lots of conjecture but no citations or meaningful evidence to back up that Babi Yar is anything but fact. Nothing like wild speculation to try and advance your political agenda. 03:16, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

If you want to have such kind of discussion (i.e.: personal attacks, claiming that people have hidden agendas, claiming wild speculations, etc.) I suggest you take this discussion elsewhere. Do a search on google for aryan nations or revisionism. --Pinnecco 14:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Revisionism

--Sean 06:52, 1 August 2006 (UTC)Revisionism has its own article in Misplaced Pages. So does Holocaust Denier. Kindly keep comments about "reasonable doubt," "alleged incident" and "myths" confined to those pages. Einsatzgruppe Operational Situation Report 101 claims 33,771 Jews killed September 29 and 30. I'll take the words of the group responsible, thank you very much.

Aftermath and Remembrance

This section starts with the sweeping statement: 'The Soviet Union was anti-semitic'. Could someone outline (and source) what form this took and what the justification for not creating a memorial was? Ashmoo 00:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Current version (29 Sept 2006, 7:35 AM Eastern Time) has "hilarious" in first paragraph that is probably vandalism or remnant of past vandalism.

translation/intention

I do not believe that "hilarious" is the correct or intended adjective in the introductory sentence. Perhaps horrific or horrendous would be more appropriate?

                     Mark Woermke

• That was a result of vandalism, it was quickly removed. Mieciu K 15:50, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

names of victims

The article includes the name of one victim. I'm thinking that that is sort of PoVish, and should be removed. (the text mentions Jews, of course, Roma, Soviet prisoners, and mental patients. Should it mention Ukrainians or Ukrainian activists as well?) Jd2718 03:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Some other civilians?!

Wouldn't it be more respectful to the dead at least to mention that they were Ukrainians and Russians, not "some other civilians". --Hillock65 03:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)