Talk:Caster Semenya - Misplaced Pages

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LGBT

Why isn't she categorized as LGBT? She's married to a woman! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3754496/Caster-Semenya-returns-home-heroes-welcome-Controversial-South-Africa-runner-gives-gold-medal-adoring-wife-look-mobbed-return-Rio.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.234.241.1 (talk) 11:36, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Besides the political / personal sensitivity of the whole article, defining her as LGBT necessitates defining her as a woman. Here you go again..... Jazi Zilber (talk) 15:29, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

As far as I am concerned, the ONLY important part is to have the central parts of facts well written and objectively. I do not think that adding more categories etc. is of the utmost importance. Even if technically, the LGBT category might be apt - I am afraid that some will find it objectionable one way or another. So no harm done for this categorization to be omitted.

That is ridiculous. Everyone identifies her as a woman (albeit with a special condition). She is even categorized as a female long-distance runner. So you can't have it both ways. She must be categorized as LGBT as well — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.177.155.128 (talk) 05:26, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

If she's intersex, then she's the I in LGBTQIA. So far she has not identified as intersex. Qzekrom (she/they • talk) 06:40, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Female with male chromosomes?

No such thing as a female with male chromosomes. That is just a bizarre question. Caster Semenya is a man with xy chromosomes and has flagrantly cheated for years. The UK Sunday Times outed Semenya as the fraud he is because legal documents show he is indeed xy, a male, a man.

"Neither she nor her coach, Jean Veter, has ever confirmed the widespread belief that Semenya has an intersex condition, meaning she was born with both male and female anatomical characteristics. Nor have they directly acknowledged she is hyperandrogenous as a result, meaning her body produces markedly higher testosterone levels than other females."

" provided something of a crash course on the science of sex differences. That’s largely due to the success of Caster Semenya, a South African track star...who is widely believed to have an intersex condition that gives her certain "male" characteristics."

"Track observers believe Semenya is hyperandrogenous, meaning her body naturally produces high amounts of testosterone, the hormone that helps build muscle, endurance and speed."

This article should discuss the widely held belief that she has an intersex condition. QuackGuru (talk) 16:31, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Another reader comes to the same conclusion. Chrisrus (talk) 18:57, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

I didn't come to this page to improve the page. I came to this page to read about the controversy and I couldn't find what I was trying to find. QuackGuru (talk) 19:07, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Intentions aside, such feedback helps, so, thanks. Chrisrus (talk) 19:24, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

New information was added that appears to address my concerns. QuackGuru (talk) 22:24, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Here's the video (to the deleted comment) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaDfkR6x5bw about her reaction to the airport mob. Adwctamia (talk) 06:37, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Semenya is a cis woman with xx chromosomes, she is not transgender because she identifies as a woman, she was assigned female at birth, her chromosomes are xx, and she just happens to have more testosterone than average. Our ovaries produce testosterone and sometimes they go overboard.

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Possible upgrading of medals

Apparently Mariya Savinova has just been stripped of some medals after being found guilty of doping, and that means that a couple of Caster Semenya's might now be upgraded. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/38931007, which says "Should the International Olympic Committee decide to reallocate the medals from the London 2012 final, Semenya would be awarded a second gold after she claimed the 800m title in Rio last summer". That decision has apparently not been made yet, but we have two IPs already making unsourced changes to upgrade Semenya's medals. Obviously that should not be done until it has actually happened and we have a reliable source to support it. I have reverted twice, but if this keeps up I might have to use a short protection, so I thought I'd better alert page watchers to that possibility. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:26, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

And immediately after I posted that, a third IP came along and changed it again, so I've semi-protected for a day. If the medals are awarded and we get a reliable source to support it, please give me a ping and I'll lift the protection. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:33, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

And now we have multiple registered users doing the same, so I have upped the protection. Sorry to anyone who now can't edit, but I can't spend all day reverting these people. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:46, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

We should complete the sentence I originally wrote based on the sourced new decision. The International Olympic Committee has not yet issued any disqualifications. If the IOC does disqualify Savinova and should become "On February 10, 2017, the Court of Arbitration for Sport (Cas) officially disqualified Savinova's results backdated to July 2010. If the IOC" And a tag to the paragraph. "Since it was the IAAF who brought the case against Savinova, it is likely Semenya and other athlete's medals will also be advanced." The second sentence is not sourced but a sensible conclusion to the situation. Trackinfo (talk) 20:00, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

I've done pretty much that, but I've concluded with "If the International Olympic Committee reallocate the London 2012 medals, Semenya's silver will be upgraded to gold" as that can be sourced directly to the BBC article. What do you think? Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:18, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

No objection there. On further review, I see the 2011 medal reallocation will still be held up due to the ongoing Ekaterina Poistogova investigation which can be mentioned. Trackinfo (talk) 20:40, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Sure. If you want to write it up here with the source, I'll be happy to make the update. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:55, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Section on the intersex (alleged), XY chromosome controversy?

This has obviously become a matter of global attention and interest of late. It's not exactly clear to me whether a section on this issue would run afoul of WP:BLP, or otherwise invite highly objectionable contributions. At the same time, it's out there in RS and it could be handled carefully and sensitively. Thoughts? Cleopatran Apocalypse (talk) 07:46, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Even the New York Times now acknowledges she has XY genetic male chromosomes and that her's is not a case of XX genetic female hyperandrogenism as this Misplaced Pages article still incorrectly states: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/08/sports/semenya-xy-chromosomes.html

This Misplaced Pages article also incorrectly states that the IAAF rules apply to hyperandrogenous athletes, but (1) the rules apply to genetically male athletes with specific disorders of sex development and with testosterone levels of 5 nmol/L and above and who do not have complete androgen insensitivity and (2) the rules do not apply to genetically female hyperandrogenism and specifically mention excluding those with polycystic ovary syndrome.

No objections from anyone? This is a controversial area and the fact that it's not in the article already may have been due to legitimate BLP concerns. If no further comment then we can start on a section addressing this issue — clearly it is a major part of Semenya's notability at this point. Cleopatran Apocalypse (talk) 19:02, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 May 2019

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change : In April 2018, the IAAF announced new rules that required hyperandrogenous athletes"

to: In April 2018, the IAAF announced new rules that required hyperandrogenous athletes with xy chromosomes

The rules DO NOT apply to hyperandrogenous athletes with XX chromosomes. Clamcakes19 (talk) 01:37, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

@Clamcakes19:

Not done your proposed change is not supported by the three sources given in the article. The IAAF rules do not mention chromosomes, only that eligible athletes must be female or intersex. An individual's status as female or intersex is not determined by their chromosomes. Qzekrom (she/they • talk) 06:34, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

The IAAF rules do not mention chromosomes but they do list specific DSDs as either covered by the rules (those that can only apply to XY genetic males) or not covered by the rules (those that can only apply to XX genetic females). That being said, though I think some corrections are needed in this article, I disagree with this edit request because the rules are not about "hyperandrogenous athletes with XY chromosomes." As athletes with XY chromosomes, those affected by the rules have levels of androgen sensitivity that are normal or less than those for males. That is, as genetic males, they are not hyperandrogenous and on the contrary more than likely have partial androgen insensitivity. IntOMIatrA (talk) 03:06, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 May 2019

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The sentence saying Semenya was born with XY chromosomes should be changed to Semeyna has hyperandrogegism. The sentence is currently linked to an article of a man's blog who is citing his own tweet that includes pure opinion. 2600:1700:6E90:52E0:5500:94EA:9319:41BB (talk) 21:19, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

If she were an XX genetic female with hyperandrogenism (as opposed to an XY genetic male with partial androgen insensitivity) then she would not be affected by the IAAF rules here:

https://www.iaaf.org/about-iaaf/documents/health-science

IntOMIatrA (talk) 03:09, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Leviv ich 05:40, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 June 2019

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Change: "In April 2018, the IAAF announced new rules that required hyperandrogenous athletes to take medication to lower their testosterone levels"

To: "In April 2018, the IAAF announced new rules that required athletes with specific disorders of sex development, testosterone levels of 5 nmol/L and above, and sufficient androgen sensitivity to take medication to lower their testosterone levels"

Reason: It is inaccurate to say that the new rules apply to hyperandrogenous athletes as some of the former rules did. The new rules do not apply to XX genetic females with hyperandrogenism related to polycystic ovary syndrome. The new rules as laid out in IAAF documents only apply to athletes with specific disorders of sex development (mostly ones that can only apply to XY genetic males), testosterone levels in the male range (above 5 nmol/L -- documents state with 99.99% confidence that women with natural PCOS hyperandrogenism have a maximum testosterone level of 4.8 nmol/L), and sufficient androgen sensitivity (that is if they are XY genetic male but have complete androgen insensitivity then they would not be affected by the rules).

This is based on the information under "IAAF Eligibility Regulations for the Female Classification (Athletes with Differences of Sex Development) in force as from 8 May 2019" here: https://www.iaaf.org/about-iaaf/documents/health-science

Here are some relevant portions:

"A Relevant Athlete is an athlete who meets each of the following three criteria: (i) she has one of the following DSDs: (A) 5α-reductase type 2 deficiency; (B) partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (PAIS); (C) 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 3 (17β- HSD3) deficiency; (D) ovotesticular DSD; or (E) any other genetic disorder involving disordered gonadal steroidogenesis; and (ii) as a result, she has circulating testosterone levels in blood of five (5) nmol/L or above; and (iii) she has sufficient androgen sensitivity for those levels of testosterone to have a material androgenising effect."

"A woman who has androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) is completely (CAIS) or partially (PAIS) insensitive to testosterone, thereby eliminating (CAIS) or reducing (PAIS) the physiological effect of that testosterone. An athlete with CAIS is not a Relevant Athlete. An athlete with PAIS will only be a Relevant Athlete if she is sufficiently androgen-sensitive for her elevated testosterone levels to have a material androgenising effect. The benefit of any doubt on this issue will be resolved in favour of the athlete."

"As noted above (see endnote 1), the available data on serum testosterone levels in men and women indicate that the upper limit of the normal female range (including elite female athletes) is 1.68 nmol/L (95% two-sided confidence limit), the upper limit for women with PCOS is 3.1 nmol/L (95% one-sided confidence limit) and 4.8 nmol/L (99.99% one-sided confidence limit), and the lower limit of the normal male range is 7.7 nmol/L (95% two-sided confidence limit). Therefore, a concentration of 5 nmol/L is an appropriate decision limit for purposes of these Regulations."

"These Regulations do not apply to any other conditions (including, without limitation, polycystic ovary syndrome and Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia), even if such conditions cause the individual to have testosterone levels in her blood above the normal female range. However, such conditions may have implications for the athlete’s health, and diagnosis can often help to improve the conditions, avoid metabolic disorders, and possibly reduce the risk of later cardiovascular events and gynaecological cancers. A serious underlying medical condition should always be suspected if the onset of symptoms is fast and/or intense. In such cases, the possibility of an androgen-secreting tumour should always be investigated. All relevant information should be provided to the athlete’s personal physician to determine the appropriate treatment (the Expert Panel may make recommendations in this regard)." IntOMIatrA (talk) 17:43, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Comment: this is a tricky issue (in particular, a lot of people and even journalists seem to disagree on whether the rules only cover XY people or also cover some XX people at the end), and the only source I see linked-to above is a WP:PRIMARYSOURCE. Per that policy, we should "not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so." Basically, we need to find secondary (other) sources and look at how they describe the rules and who they cover. -sche (talk) 19:00, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

The text change in this edit does not attempt to establish whether the rules only cover XY people or also XX; it just generally clarifies what the new criteria are and corrects the current sentence that says they are about hyperandrogenism. That said, the first three DSDs in the list (A, B, and C) only apply or are only clinically significant in XY I think. The other two listed (D and E) are less clear. IntOMIatrA (talk) 21:13, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

The Executive Summary to the case and a subsequent Q&A released by the IAAF clarify that the regulations are now about hyperandrogenism and chromosomes. I have added some material on this to the article. I have also added contrasting positions - including Eric Vilain who is quoted in the section on 2016, giving a different position. Trankuility (talk) 01:56, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

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